PowerMacs and PowerBooks Delays?

[MacRumors]

Appleinsider provides (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=381) some vague notes about the upcoming PowerMac and PowerBook updates.

According to the rumor site, PowerMac and PowerBook updates are reportedly delayed until late March and late April, respectively. Specs for the upcoming revisions are unclear, but Appleinsider points to ATI video card supplies as a possible reason for the delay.

Meanwhile, according to an unverified MacRumors source, the PowerMac G5 delays are reportedly related to difficulties with cooling in the faster machines.

While no specifics are available, one would assume that Apple will be using the new PowerPC 970FX (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/02/20040211143241.shtml) upcoming revisions. The 90nm chip should run cooler than its 130nm counterpart.

[Trowaman]

well poop. :(

[g4pismo]

my $$ is waiting .. if this keeps up, I will have the cash for an extra display :-D

[scem0]

Has Apple Insider been right about anything recently?

And I don't mean that as a rhetorical, sarcastic question. Have they?

It seems like they have a new rumor every day.

scem0

[swissmann]

At this rate we might as well just wait till September for the promised 3 GHz chips. Also, I don't care about a G4 Powerbook update. No way I'd buy until it has a G5 in it.

[gorkonapple]

While no specifics are available, one would assume that Apple will be using the new PowerPC 970FX (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/02/20040211143241.shtml) upcoming revisions. The 90nm chip should run cooler than its 130nm counterpart.


This is the problem. EVERYONE has been assuming that the 90nm part should run cooler then the earlier chip, yet I think that is assuming too much. Assuming this, then yes...Powerbook G5's may yet be close on the horizon....yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5. Apple likes to Think Different and I as well as many others on the net have been hoping for a portable that works as fast as the desktop with no compromises. This includes the first ever portable SMP system.

[arn]

Has Apple Insider been right about anything recently?

And I don't mean that as a rhetorical, sarcastic question. Have they?


They've been less right lately.... (for example, that they also predicted PowerMac revisions for MWSF.) That being said, they do appear to have some real information.

arn

[army_guy]

Yes ATI and that R420, they should be releasing it MARCH/APRIL with availability sometime in MAY for the OEMS and board manufacturers so Id say early MAY-JUNE for the desktop G5's as for the powerbooks looks like they might get the ATI M11 (9700) but still be stuck with the G4 so...

[arn]

This is the problem. EVERYONE has been assuming that the 90nm part should run cooler then the earlier chip, yet I think that is assuming too much.

It's true, though.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040121202659.shtml


A comparison chart reveals that the 970FX consumes 24.5W at 2.0GHz while the original 970 consumes 51W at 1.8GHz

[army_guy]

DUAL CPU laptop?
What at under 1" you must be joking, what about your battery life, it isnt Apple to do this.

[macilosh]

Meanwhile, according to an unverified MacRumors source, the PowerMac G5 delays are reportedly related to difficulties with cooling in the faster machines.

The new G5 towers are experiencing heat issues and causing hard drive failures on the latest working models. Inside IBM the folks point to Apple and not the 970fx chipset. They (Apple) are currently moving the heat sensors around and achieiving OK temp specs but he heat build up is still an issue... wait wait wait. Powerbook 970fx chips will be under top speeds to address this problem... still kinks to work out.

[klaus]

Meanwhile, according to an unverified MacRumors source, the PowerMac G5 delays are reportedly related to difficulties with cooling in the faster machines.

The new G5 towers are experiencing heat issues and causing hard drive failures on the latest working models. Inside IBM the folks point to Apple and not the 970fx chipset. They (Apple) are currently moving the heat sensors around and achieiving OK temp specs but he heat build up is still an issue... wait wait wait. Powerbook 970fx chips will be under top speeds to address this problem... still kinks to work out.


where did you get that info?

[stockscalper]

Meanwhile, according to an unverified MacRumors source, the PowerMac G5 delays are reportedly related to difficulties with cooling in the faster machines.

This is true and why you won't see a 2ghz FX chip in a Powerbook. They consume too much power and run way too hot. It is feasible to put a 1.6 ghz chip in a Powerbook and that would give a nice speed improvement over the current lineup, especially if faster hard drives and ram and more powerful video cards were included. Don't expect to see the 2 ghz and faster chips on laptops until the 60 micron chips are out (yes IBM is currently working on them).

[macilosh]

60 micro is still in design layout and aren't in prototyping so it will be a long while...

[Sabenth]

Dual chiped powered laptops are possible i think its all the power issues and yea getting burnt twice as fast :)

As for the G5 PB if they pop up this year ill be happy and buy one..

till then looks like a g4

[MrSugar]

This is true and why you won't see a 2ghz FX chip in a Powerbook. They consume too much power and run way too hot. It is feasible to put a 1.6 ghz chip in a Powerbook and that would give a nice speed improvement over the current lineup, especially if faster hard drives and ram and more powerful video cards were included. Don't expect to see the 2 ghz and faster chips on laptops until the 60 micron chips are out (yes IBM is currently working on them).

I hate making comments about powerbooks, but I had to open this one up. This is nutty, the Xserve has a 90nm g5 and it's a 1U rackmount (1.75" or close) closure. Powerbooks will be able to run on a 90nm chip process, there is no question about this. It's just all the engineering BS that is probably taking a long time.

on to my post:

I don't understand how apple could have a Pmac that is already working and get so many more issues from it by introducing a new, smaller, less heat producing chip? I mean even if it's outside of the processor they already have all of those parts working and cooling, what huge problems could bring on delays like this?! I just don't understand!

So frustrating, I really really want to go all mac and I am not willing to do it on the current line, revisions are needed, soon.

[a17inchFuture]

I would be more than happy with a 1.6 or 1.7 ghz g5 pb, and like most others, I will not buy a pb until that happens.

That being said, I hope this rumor is rue, and that its lack of verification on the g4 front is a good sign. IMO, if they were going to release g4's, they would make it clear that they were going, to deflate people's expectations. The Moto g4 announcement was vague about in what comp it will be used, and even more vagueness pointing toward further down the road. . . .

Get your wallets ready, cause i think i smell something, and its not the overclocked g4's burning users laps. . . .

[mxpiazza]

well, this just soldifies my decision to sell my 12" and buy a 15"...

although i must say that the first revision of powermac g5's went off without a technological hitch, i'm not so sure that the powerbook g5's will switch to a g5 as fluidly... i WILL be the first in line for the rev. b g5 pb, i can tell you that.

[a17inchFuture]

macilosh, wy do you act like you know everything? What is this 60 thing?

and if you were anything but faking your knowledge, wouldn't you probably not be a "newbie"? :confused:

[a17inchFuture]

EDIT: woops, repost

[army_guy]

I hate making comments about powerbooks, but I had to open this one up. This is nutty, the Xserve has a 90nm g5 and it's a 1U rackmount (1.75" or close) closure. Powerbooks will be able to run on a 90nm chip process, there is no question about this. It's just all the engineering BS that is probably taking a long time.

on to my post:

I don't understand how apple could have a Pmac that is already working and get so many more issues from it by introducing a new, smaller, less heat producing chip? I mean even if it's outside of the processor they already have all of those parts working and cooling, what huge problems could bring on delays like this?! I just don't understand!

So frustrating, I really really want to go all mac and I am not willing to do it on the current line, revisions are needed, soon.

Dont forget that powerbook will not have the same number of fans as the Xserve. As for the 90nm, as I said before they are more difficult to cool due to the smaller contact area hence even though they dissipate less heat they will run at higher core temperatures. The solution is to use bigger heatsinks or faster fans hence this could be one of the reasons for the delays though I would of thought Apple would have it sorted allready if they wanted faster CPUS.

There is no 60nm its 65nm, the cooling problem is much worse here.

[tgrundke]

I wouldn't get all that excited about either product line for the spring. If the timeline is true, it means that we're looking at a speedbumped G4 PowerBook and a slightly speedbumped PowerMac.

If Apple was being honest about "3 ghz by the end of next summer" that means that Apple has until September to pull it off. That's six months. To be honest, unless demand is slacking significantly, I wouldn't expect anything other than either a price cut on current models or a shift up to 1.8, 2.0 and maybe a 2.2 as an interim model until we get the 3.0, 2.8, and 2.6 (guesstimates) come late summer.

Or, Apple is going to move the PowerMac this spring to 2.0, 2.4 and 2.6 and take the iMac into G5 territory with a 1.6, 1.8 and maybe even a 2.0 model.

And the G5 PowerBooks - I'm placing bets that we won't see them until MWSF 2005.
Oh, the joys of speculation.

[Ge4-ce]

Meanwhile, according to an unverified MacRumors source, the PowerMac G5 delays are reportedly related to difficulties with cooling in the faster machines.

The new G5 towers are experiencing heat issues and causing hard drive failures on the latest working models. Inside IBM the folks point to Apple and not the 970fx chipset. They (Apple) are currently moving the heat sensors around and achieiving OK temp specs but he heat build up is still an issue... wait wait wait. Powerbook 970fx chips will be under top speeds to address this problem... still kinks to work out.

That doesn't make sense to me!

The 970 FX should produce less heat at 2 GHZ, so they could produce the same heat at 2.5 Ghz. They are already used in the new Xserves at 2.0 ghz and there they manage to cool them in a 1U unit!!

So I really do not believe that they have cooling problems.. Unless offcourse they want them to run at more than 2.5 Ghz!.. 3 Ghz for example or there really are making the Quad PowerMac G5's..

Also remember the highly requested feature: a high-end New Graphics card.

Personally I think it's a combination of several things:

- 1 - Delivery problems with some parts
- 2 - To much stock of old 2 Ghz Macs
- 3 - Apple wants enough production to keep up with the demands and doesn't want to end up in a situation like last time (angry waiting customers)
- 4 - Waiting for another product to be ready first (New Displays for example) because a lot of people would be pissed If they buy new G5s with old displays and then after a month, the New displays also arrive.
- 5 - OS 10.3.3 must be released first to support the new hardware! making CD's and spread them etc.)

[virividox]

bottom line
more waiting

[lasuther]

If there is a problem with G5 PowerMacs overheating, a PowerBook G5 is going to be nuclear hot. Even at the lower GHz, its going to be very hot. We'll be lucky to have a G5 PowerBook by the end of the year that has more than a 1 hour battery life and doesn't burn you. But I do think it will be here for the holiday shopping season. I'll be waiting for a Rev B G5 PowerBook, and thats a long way off. Just my take on the situation.

lasuther

[Moonlight]

No mention of new imacs...how sad.... :(

[mxpiazza]

well, this just soldifies my decision to sell my 12" and buy a 15"...

although i must say that the first revision of powermac g5's went off without a technological hitch, i'm not so sure that the powerbook g5's will switch to a g5 as fluidly... i WILL be the first in line for the rev. b g5 pb, i can tell you that.

[macilosh]

opps... 65nm it is and the newbie thing... just out of these time-wasting forums-while-you-wait threads for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the info I just think there are other things to do on/about this planet... balance! Not faking it.

[Gaffa Bug]

I hate making comments about powerbooks, but I had to open this one up. This is nutty, the Xserve has a 90nm g5 and it's a 1U rackmount (1.75" or close) closure. Powerbooks will be able to run on a 90nm chip process, there is no question about this. It's just all the engineering BS that is probably taking a long time.

on to my post:

I don't understand how apple could have a Pmac that is already working and get so many more issues from it by introducing a new, smaller, less heat producing chip? I mean even if it's outside of the processor they already have all of those parts working and cooling, what huge problems could bring on delays like this?! I just don't understand!


I agree... seems like the PCI-X graphics cards are the hold up.

[Naimfan]

I'd be surprised if PBs next revision came out with a G5, unless there are no revisions to the PB line until MWSF. That seems to be an untenable retail position. Combining Apple's statement that "It will be a while..." until the G5 goes into the PB, and the fact that PBs are due for some sort of update, isn't the most likely scenario an updated G4, with faster HD and a better graphics card? I understand the line of reasoning that says the 970FX is much cooler running than the 970, and is cooler than or equal to the G4, but there may well be other heat issues on the motherboard or elsewhere that make it difficult for Apple to engineer into a PB. Until Apple either comments on that or brings out new PBs we won't know.

I've said elsewhere that I'd buy a 15" 1.4/1.5 GHz G4 if it's priced around or below where it is now. As a student, I can buy the 15" 1.25 GHz for $2299, which strikes me as about right relative to the Wintel laptops I've seen (which are all hideous). The only thing stopping me from ordering one with the single 512 meg stick of RAM and the faster HD is that some sort of update seems imminent.....and my Pismo is still OK.

So the report of delays bums me out some, but not entirely. Better Apple get right whatever update is coming, than to rush them out complete with defects.

Best,

Bob

[army_guy]

I agree... seems like the PCI-X graphics cards are the hold up.
Not PCI-X

PCI-Express x16
Well could be, but ATI has allready finished the cards (native x16 PCI-Express), it might be because there isnt enough cards.

[GigaWire]

There will be no updates until 3 GHz this summer. Remember, we no longer have a G4 processor here, so every incremental speed bump like before does not matter anymore. I would not be surprised by once a year powermac updates as a norm. Until they get stuck at 5 GHz for 3 years.

[BenRoethig]

Not PCI-X

PCI-Express x16
Well could be, but ATI has allready finished the cards (native x16 PCI-Express), it might be because there isnt enough cards.

I would like to see this. I think it would be a great PR boost for Apple to be a early adopter of PCI-express.

[swissmann]

There will be no updates until 3 GHz this summer. Remember, we no longer have a G4 processor here, so every incremental speed bump like before does not matter anymore. I would not be surprised by once a year powermac updates as a norm. Until they get stuck at 5 GHz for 3 years.

I've posted this same idea before. Steve promised 3 GHz at the time of the 2 GHz release. I think he will ride this promise. Of course watch me be wrong tomorrow. After all tomorrow is Tuesday and there are always updates on Tuesday from Apple. (Someone had to say it). ;)

[MacFan25]

I'm wondering if the new Powerbooks will have the G4 or G5 in them. I certainly hope that they will have the G5 but, who knows...

Didn't Steve Jobs say at MWSF that they had trouble trying to cool the G5 Xserves? Which use the 90nm G5?

So I'd think that it would be even worse heat in a Powerbook...

[army_guy]

I would like to see this. I think it would be a great PR boost for Apple to be a early adopter of PCI-express.

Then again I dont think the MAC games market is that strong to justify a move to PCI-Express, more likely it will be the pro-level video editing market that will utilise PCI-Express.

[lind0834]

For those of you who didn't actually read the AI article.. here's an interesting tidbit.

Previous rumors have suggested an all-dual processor lineup for the new Power Mac G5s, which will reportedly be accompanied by long overdue revisions to the Cinema display product line. The second generation Power Mac G5s may also accompany up to a terabyte of hard disk space, according to one report.

That said, I do wish they'd only release a PM once they hit 3GHz. They save money by not using R&D on an upgrade machine, and support because by now they know all issues with the G5s.

[Mord]

If there is a problem with G5 PowerMacs overheating, a PowerBook G5 is going to be nuclear hot. Even at the lower GHz, its going to be very hot. We'll be lucky to have a G5 PowerBook by the end of the year that has more than a 1 hour battery life and doesn't burn you. But I do think it will be here for the holiday shopping season. I'll be waiting for a Rev B G5 PowerBook, and thats a long way off. Just my take on the situation.

lasuther

g5 chips run cooler than g4's at equal clock rate I hate the way that people say that g5's are so hot when they are not the origional 970 was a bit much at 50 watts but the P4 presscot consumes 100 (roughly)

Dose anyone know what ran at a higher temperature the wind tunnel mdd's or the g5's i would suspect the mdd'd run at a higher temp.

Not all heat problems in a mac are to do with the processor it is a combination of things like the ghrapics card the HD's and all the other things (the motherboard generates a fair bit with that 1ghz system bus)

with a 400mhz system bus 1.6ghz 970fx processors and a radeon 9600/9700

and for those people complaining about why the new g5's are having heat problems it is because apple will push the clock rate up as high as it is safe to do so, after doing that the heat produced should be about the same as the old ones. ether apple isent geting the speed they want or other components are to blaim like that short supply of ati cards as highligted in the original artical.

[UofI MacConvert]

I'd be surprised if PBs next revision came out with a G5, unless there are no revisions to the PB line until MWSF. That seems to be an untenable retail position. Combining Apple's statement that "It will be a while..." until the G5 goes into the PB, and the fact that PBs are due for some sort of update, isn't the most likely scenario an updated G4, with faster HD and a better graphics card? I understand the line of reasoning that says the 970FX is much cooler running than the 970, and is cooler than or equal to the G4, but there may well be other heat issues on the motherboard or elsewhere that make it difficult for Apple to engineer into a PB. Until Apple either comments on that or brings out new PBs we won't know.

I've said elsewhere that I'd buy a 15" 1.4/1.5 GHz G4 if it's priced around or below where it is now. As a student, I can buy the 15" 1.25 GHz for $2299, which strikes me as about right relative to the Wintel laptops I've seen (which are all hideous). The only thing stopping me from ordering one with the single 512 meg stick of RAM and the faster HD is that some sort of update seems imminent.....and my Pismo is still OK.

So the report of delays bums me out some, but not entirely. Better Apple get right whatever update is coming, than to rush them out complete with defects.


So I couldn't take it anymore. I figured that the 10 day period would cover me for updates this week and next but even if they dont come it is well worth it for me. I need a new laptop and could not wait to switch from the prison known as windows. I ordered a new 1.25 15" PB with 1 gig ram this morning along with a new blue ipod mini :D . I dont really need the extra power if an update comes and I got a great deal with the developer program too. It was great to see this rumor come out too, made my decision seem more reasonable. Now Apple really has a reason to update though, they have my $$ already. To all those that can wait, good luck with the waiting and rumor watching. To those that need one, just order one, if you dont need a G5 then there really is no reason to wait for the next update. Just my opinion. :cool:

Stevo

[fixyourthinking]

This is the problem. EVERYONE has been assuming that the 90nm part should run cooler then the earlier chip, yet I think that is assuming too much. Assuming this, then yes...Powerbook G5's may yet be close on the horizon....yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5. Apple likes to Think Different and I as well as many others on the net have been hoping for a portable that works as fast as the desktop with no compromises. This includes the first ever portable SMP system.

With prices for chips being $279 each to Apple - and much greater costs to integrate (with most likely liquid cooling or some other advanced cooling system) I doubt we'd see dual processor laptops for a long time (even in a G4 PowerBook or LCD iMac G4 iteration)

Also, I think the hold up for the PowerMac revision is the fact that a lot of users were REALLY disappointed that there wasn't a second optical/storage/connection bay - It would be my best guess that Apple will release a PowerMac G5 with the dual bays - there is significant cooling issues with that implementation.

[clr900]

If I have to wait more than one more month....I will implode. I want me new PM G5 now! :o

[DrGruv1]

thought i'd throw out the optimistic predictions... these are just guesses (rumors) :) so give it a break

they released the 970fx 8 months or more ahead of schedule, perhaps they have the 980 ready to go..

1) people or are waitting for the 3ghz as promised by steve

2) 970fx chip are being used extensively in xserves, currently unavailable to us because they are going to mac supercomputers around the world (hopefull guess)

3) when production steps up and video cards fall in line, the new powerbooks g5 with 970fx's

4) the new g6 or g5+ will include bluetooth and wireless keyboard and mouse and of couse the new stylish lcd (tv's) monitors

these are just guesses, what are yours?

-mike :p

[alxths]

Aha! So what we discussed in this thread now has some backing!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=60916

[Ge4-ce]

If I have to wait more than one more month....I will implode. I want me new PM G5 now! :o

I know how you're feeling dude.. I have the money ready.. Just about 5000 € to spend on a high-end Powermac with a 23" display.. have waited a very long time for this..

The frustrations are getting harder and harder

I hit the reload button of Apple's website 20 times a second every monday and tuesday at 9am and 10am..

I'm GOING NUTS!!

[Soire]

Does anybody honestly know how long apple takes to ship these suckers out? If they really were to release updated G5s at the end of March, how long would it be until we could buy, ship, and then get delivered these fairy tale PMs? Cause if the answer is: Three months after they're announced, it will arrive at your door- then somebody had ought to contact Amnesty International over this torture.

Jonesing for a PowerMac, but playing chicken with Steve Jobs...

-Soire

[HiRez]

they released the 970fx 8 months or more ahead of schedule, perhaps they have the 980 ready to go..I think we're "stuck" with the G5 for a long time, probably several years. Last I heard IBM was expecting the G5 to scale to at least 5 GHz, so that kills a lot of time for Apple if need be. Not that it's such a bad thing, if IBM can keep steadily ramping speeds and Apple can get the chips to work in an actual product.

I'm really hoping this next update includes a dualie at the low end. If they could come up with a dual 1.8 for around $2,000 I'd be all over that. That would keep me happy until the 5.0 G6's show up in 2006. Hopefully the prices for the Radeon 9800 Pros are going to come down too. You have to really really want one right now to justify the extra $400-$500.

[johnnyjibbs]

I think this is just one of those inevitable rumours. There have been no updates and it's now March, so it's time for the "PowerBook and PowerMac delay" rumours - just stating the obvious, with some cock and bull story about heat issues to justify it.

[skinEman23]

I don't see how Apple could continue selling a laptop that is seven or eight months old with no price reduction and no upgrades. If the Powerbook delays have some truth to them, I think we'll see a price drop.

[Frobozz]

Yes ATI and that R420, they should be releasing it MARCH/APRIL with availability sometime in MAY for the OEMS and board manufacturers so Id say early MAY-JUNE for the desktop G5's

I can see Apple releasing dual 2.5 GHz G5's with a standard 9800XT. The future ATI chips, I would guess, would come as either BTO when they are available, or as standard parts on the high end 3rd generation G5 PowerMac's.

So what's your take on the PowerMac updates? Think we'll get them late this month? I think either way I will wait until the dual 3.0 GHz+ revision is out. I have a sweet DP 1Ghz Quicksilver and it's still VERY usable. To be honest, the only reason I'd see to update would be for cutting edge games and for 3D modelling (I do a lot of both.)

[TranceClubMusic]

So I couldn't take it anymore. I figured that the 10 day period would cover me for updates this week and next but even if they dont come it is well worth it for me. I need a new laptop and could not wait to switch from the prison known as windows. I ordered a new 1.25 15" PB with 1 gig ram this morning along with a new blue ipod mini :D . I dont really need the extra power if an update comes and I got a great deal with the developer program too. It was great to see this rumor come out too, made my decision seem more reasonable. Now Apple really has a reason to update though, they have my $$ already. To all those that can wait, good luck with the waiting and rumor watching. To those that need one, just order one, if you dont need a G5 then there really is no reason to wait for the next update. Just my opinion. :cool:

Stevo

I agree! I stopped waiting and just got a great deal on the disontinued G5 1.8 - and I LOVE it!!!!!! No more waiting - and even if and when the New Revision B G%'s come out - they wont be "that much" faster then what I have!

[hayesk]

If I have to wait more than one more month....I will implode. I want me new PM G5 now! :o

So buy one now. What will a slightly faster PM G5 do for you that the current one won't?

I bought a 1GHz PB G4 on the weekend. I am more satisfied with my decision every day. I'd rather spend my time using a Mac than waiting for a new model. There will always be something better coming out - the only reason I can see wiating is if the current models can't do something you need it to.

[windowsblowsass]

This is the problem. EVERYONE has been assuming that the 90nm part should run cooler then the earlier chip, yet I think that is assuming too much. Assuming this, then yes...Powerbook G5's may yet be close on the horizon....yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5. Apple likes to Think Different and I as well as many others on the net have been hoping for a portable that works as fast as the desktop with no compromises. This includes the first ever portable SMP system.
Its not assuming ibm even said that the fx is coller than the normal 970

[scem0]

I agree! I stopped waiting and just got a great deal on the disontinued G5 1.8 - and I LOVE it!!!!!! No more waiting - and even if and when the New Revision B G%'s come out - they wont be "that much" faster then what I have!

I hope with all my heart that you are wrong.

And I mean that in a good way :).

scem0

[clr900]

So buy one now. What will a slightly faster PM G5 do for you that the current one won't?

I bought a 1GHz PB G4 on the weekend. I am more satisfied with my decision every day. I'd rather spend my time using a Mac than waiting for a new model. There will always be something better coming out - the only reason I can see wiating is if the current models can't do something you need it to.
I'm not going to buy something that I know will be cheaper in a very short amount of time, I would rather wait and spend the same amount and get something newer and faster, maybe a 2nd optical drive or 9800 standard? If I knew it would be more like 6 months then I wouldn't wait but I have a strong feeling March is the month.

[Frobozz]

I don't see how Apple could continue selling a laptop that is seven or eight months old with no price reduction and no upgrades. If the Powerbook delays have some truth to them, I think we'll see a price drop.

You know, a price drop would certinaly make me buy a current generation 1.25 Ghz 15 inch... that's a pretty nice laptop. I'm not looking to replace my desktop so price is a big point of the equation for me.

[oingoboingo]

well, this just soldifies my decision to sell my 12" and buy a 15"...

although i must say that the first revision of powermac g5's went off without a technological hitch, i'm not so sure that the powerbook g5's will switch to a g5 as fluidly... i WILL be the first in line for the rev. b g5 pb, i can tell you that.

Uhhh...screeching power supplies...the infamous 'Black Screen of Death' from cold boots...the front headphone jack isn't even implemented properly and doesn't cancel out the output from the rear audio jack when headphones are plugged in. I wouldn't say the G5 rollout happened without a hitch...my first one was DOA, and my second (current) one suffers intermittently from Black Screen of Death.

[mdriftmeyer]

This is the problem. EVERYONE has been assuming that the 90nm part should run cooler then the earlier chip, yet I think that is assuming too much. Assuming this, then yes...Powerbook G5's may yet be close on the horizon....yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5. Apple likes to Think Different and I as well as many others on the net have been hoping for a portable that works as fast as the desktop with no compromises. This includes the first ever portable SMP system.

This is what goes through my mind coming from an Mech. Engineering perspective.


Known: Conductive Heat Transfer clearly shows that the more current required to power a surface area the greater amount of heat that black body surface will emit.

Assumptions: SMP in the form of dual or quad processor workstations. Single or Dual SMP laptops are a requirement for the business model.

Experimentations: The Convective Heat Transfer of this volumetric housing for the Workstation will require a flow increase from fans to move the increased amount of conductive heat transfer these processors will produce. For a single CPU this is not an issue because the system will emit lower amounts of heat dissipation than the prior 970 CPU.

The cost of these systems must be the same or less than their predecessors at similiar configurations, in order to be competitive within the market.

The time to market cannot be delayed too long in order to maintain a positive market perception.

Suppliers have to be able to provide parts in quantities that are on par or greater than those supplied for the current system configurations, assuming a market growth curve.

Acceptable heat measurements have to be tested, in various work environments to determine the feasibility of hardware designs that will house these new CPUs.

In the end, if the market pressure to roll out new systems supercedes the option of Quad Processor Systems than a fallback design has to be rolled out, in place of the desired configuration, until such systems exceed the Factors of Safety (FS) required of them for end user consumption.

[0 and A ai]

If this keeps up when will we see the 3ghz machines?

end of march +6 months is end of september...steve jobs said end of summer. i guess they could announce end of summer and ship october.

on a side note...i liked theold forums better

[ImAlwaysRight]

Steve promised 3 GHz at the time of the 2 GHz release.

LOL, are we all going to be :eek: shocked :eek: if Steve is unable to keep this promise of 3 GHz by summer 2004? I know I won't be. Pretty bold (a.k.a. foolish) to make a promise like this so far in advance. IBM isn't Motorola yada yada yada -- you can sing this tune -- but when it comes down to it, faster G5 computers are based on more than just the CPU. The real world sometimes throws you a curve ball. Maybe the day before the fall equinox we will have an ANNOUNCEMENT regarding 3.0 G5's, but I've doubted all along we'll see any dual 3.0 G5's in consumer's hands in August/early Sept. 2004. And you can quote me on that!

My dual 2.0 G5 is gonna be king for a little bit longer. No complainin' from me. :D

[Frobozz]

I understand the line of reasoning that says the 970FX is much cooler running than the 970, and is cooler than or equal to the G4, but there may well be other heat issues on the motherboard or elsewhere that make it difficult for Apple to engineer into a PB.

I tend to agree. I think that it's obvious the 970FX is on par with the G4 for heat generation... but what are the other key differences in a G4 design, versus a G5 design? The motherboard. Even if the hard drives are the same, you have to contend with the heat generated by a new set of chips... including a HyperTransport bus speed that could be as high as 800 Mhz (if the chip is 1.6 GHz and the do a 2-to-1 ratio.)

That's GOT to generate a lot more heat than the puny 167 MHz used on the G4 today. I think you're right by saying it isn't just the chips causing heat problems.

[Vlade]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but all of these cooling issues are total BS. The pentium 4 3.4GHZ EE machine runs at over 100 watts for the CPU alone, and a standard HSF will cool it just fine, so why can't apple cool 2 2GHZ machines at 25 watts each with their GIANT heat sinks. The die sizes aren't that much different, so don't try to tell me the heat is more dense on the 970s.

The Hard drives need better fans or a small heat sink, that has nothing to do with the CPUs because they are separated.

[Photorun]

Wait, so it's harder to cool a cooler machine than a hotter one?! :confused:

[Photorun]

Uhhh...screeching power supplies...the infamous 'Black Screen of Death' from cold boots...the front headphone jack isn't even implemented properly and doesn't cancel out the output from the rear audio jack when headphones are plugged in. I wouldn't say the G5 rollout happened without a hitch...my first one was DOA, and my second (current) one suffers intermittently from Black Screen of Death.

You and how many others? I know 42 G5 2.0 machines with nary one with a glitch at an illustration design house, I have seven friends with G5s, one used to have this weird intermittant fan chirp but it's gone almost inaudable. I own a G5 1.8 DP, not a single problem, only one odd crash in a few months of use but I use some high end audio stuff that was buggy back on a G4. Sorry to hear you have bad luck, but I wouldn't say it's a blanket statement at all.

[Frobozz]

LOL, are we all going to be :eek: shocked :eek: if Steve is unable to keep this promise of 3 GHz by summer 2004? I know I won't be. Pretty bold (a.k.a. foolish) to make a promise like this so far in advance

I'd agree with you if this wasn't Steve Jobs. But it is. He's NEVER said something like this before. He had to know, with a HUGE amount of conservative spin, that he could EASILY get to 3.0 GHz by this summer. My honest guess, based on rumors from numerous sources, is that IBM was demoing pre-production samples of 3.4 GHz 975 generation chips late last year. Steve had to know in June that this would b the case, and hap probably been privy to the prototypes at the time. IBM rarely slips on deadlines, so the only ball to drop is on his own team's shoulders.

I think it's safe to say that, not later than September, we will have delivery of dual 3.0 GHz or greater PowerMacs. I don't doubt it one iota.

[Grimace]

I'm not sure if I see the point for dual bays. A few disc-disc transfers/copies etc., but they could almost just as easily do without.

[HiRez]

blah

[HiRez]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but all of these cooling issues are total BS. The pentium 4 3.4GHZ EE machine runs at over 100 watts for the CPU alone, and a standard HSF will cool it just fine, so why can't apple cool 2 2GHZ machines at 25 watts each with their GIANT heat sinks. The die sizes aren't that much different, so don't try to tell me the heat is more dense on the 970s.P4EE die size: 237mm^2
970fx die size: 60mm^2

And the 100 watts for the P4 is max, 25 watts for a 970fx would be nominal, max is something like 50-55 watts (each).

[Porshuh944turbo]

You'd think that if they can cool the new chips in the xserve 1U enclosure, then it'd be no *sweat* :rolleyes: to put it in the desktop even at higher clock speeds! :o

[eSnow]

That doesn't make sense to me!

The 970 FX should produce less heat at 2 GHZ, so they could produce the same heat at 2.5 Ghz. They are already used in the new Xserves at 2.0 ghz and there they manage to cool them in a 1U unit!!
Unless, of course, they have redesigned the case to allow for two optical and four hard drives. And/or hotter graphics cards.

It is known that Apple had its fill of problems with the placement of HDs in the RevA G5 tower leading to overheating disks and consequently a rearrangement of temperature sensors. Why should this not happen again?

[whookam]

[QUOTE=hayesk]What will a slightly faster PM G5 do for you that the current one won't?
QUOTE]

Nothing, it'll just do it faster ;)

[mcs37]

DUAL CPU laptop?
What at under 1" you must be joking, what about your battery life, it isnt Apple to do this.

A dual CPU laptop is totally within the limits of Apple's capabilities. I would propose that its second CPU shut down when running on battery, however, to save power. How nice would it be to have an SMP laptop when plugged in? Totally amazing! And if they are using a liquid cooling system, no more fans!

All we need to do is get some MRAM and we'll be in business. If only someone could get rid of spinning magnetic disks, though...

[army_guy]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but all of these cooling issues are total BS. The pentium 4 3.4GHZ EE machine runs at over 100 watts for the CPU alone, and a standard HSF will cool it just fine, so why can't apple cool 2 2GHZ machines at 25 watts each with their GIANT heat sinks. The die sizes aren't that much different, so don't try to tell me the heat is more dense on the 970s.

The Hard drives need better fans or a small heat sink, that has nothing to do with the CPUs because they are separated.

The standard cooler will run the CPU at 65 Degrees C when idle and roughly 75 when under load thats damn hot considering the use of a heatsink that big and a fan thats as load as a jet engine (45-55db's). Really you liquid cool the b##stard and run in in silence I say, like I said air-cooling is dead. Apple is concerned with the noise I think.

[phonic pol]

yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5. Apple likes to Think Different and I as well as many others on the net have been hoping for a portable that works as fast as the desktop with no compromises. This includes the first ever portable SMP system.[/QUOTE]



Nice thought but marketable suicide! What use would a powermac be if you could have the same performance as a portable!?!

[jelloshotsrule]

Nice thought but marketable suicide! What use would a powermac be if you could have the same performance as a portable!?!

whether or not the prediction is right.... the dual laptop would obviously be vastly more expensive, and would probably have a slower bus speed, lesser graphics, less expansion, less ram capabilities, etc.. so not necessarily suicide....

[gorkonapple]

Dont forget that powerbook will not have the same number of fans as the Xserve. As for the 90nm, as I said before they are more difficult to cool due to the smaller contact area hence even though they dissipate less heat they will run at higher core temperatures. The solution is to use bigger heatsinks or faster fans hence this could be one of the reasons for the delays though I would of thought Apple would have it sorted allready if they wanted faster CPUS.

There is no 60nm its 65nm, the cooling problem is much worse here.


Thank you! I was waiting for someone like this. Most everyone on here has been whining...I want my G5 PB......the 90 nm runs cooler so I should have it....

These folks know diddly squat about engineering. Same goes for the ones stating things like Dual Processor laptops are out of the question. These chips are smaller then the old one and harder to get a good heat conductive connection to the processor. Ergo you have to come up with new ways of cooling it in a small package. In a PB, your going to have ONE fan. No more, no less. People whine when their G4's fan is running all of the time...what happens when the G5 can't run without it? This is WHY the G5 Powerbook isn't out. You can't just drop the new chip in the machine. The whole thing needs to be reengineered. If this was the case, then we'd truely have BYO(Build Your Own) laptops. Sure if you have the budget, you can build your own as a business, but as a private person it's too cost prohibitive. This is even mroe true when it comes to Apple. Not only must it work for us computer geeks, but it must work for grandma too. If Grandma burns her thighs on her G5 Powerbook, they will have lawsuits....all I have to say is....be patient. Good things come to those who wait.

[satty]

Many here are talking about Xserves running G5 and it wouldn't be a problem to use the 970FX also in a PB.

First, I wouldn't compare a Xserve with a PB.
Second, the estimated shipment (6 to 8 weeks) did never change since the first announcement in January. Has someone a confirmed date when the first Xserves will actually be shipped?

To me it appears they have still some issues with the Xserve G5.

[James Craner]

G5 Powerbooks are not coming any time soon. Apple has said that they are working on them, but they have to resolve the engineering issues. They have also stated that there is plenty of life left in the G4. That's why I believe that we will see one more G4 Powerbook speedbump before the G5 Powerbook. In my view it is very unlikely we will see any G5 Powerbook announcement before September 2004.

[Gaffa Bug]

Not PCI-X

PCI-Express x16
Well could be, but ATI has allready finished the cards (native x16 PCI-Express), it might be because there isnt enough cards.

Thanks for the correction Army_Guy ;

[UKMacBod]

It's frustrating that (for whatever reason) upgraded PowerMacs are not forthcoming - at least not for the next few weeks or so!

IBM are producing quality chips - Apple need their Pro line of desktops upgraded.

[windowsblowsass]

The standard cooler will run the CPU at 65 Degrees C when idle and roughly 75 when under load thats damn hot considering the use of a heatsink that big and a fan thats as load as a jet engine (45-55db's). Really you liquid cool the b##stard and run in in silence I say, like I said air-cooling is dead. Apple is concerned with the noise I think.
actually there would be fans how do you think the water wold be cooled by magic? its called a raidiator

im not saying there arent advantages to water cooling just saying it uses fans to

[Steven1621]

It would seem to me that if Apple was going to put out an updated G4 PB, it would be here soonier than the end of April. It probably wouldn't be a ground breaking update. Most likely, there would be a speed bump. Possibly faster HD's and a faster Superdrive. I would expect the new ATI video card to be in there as well. Outside of the purported ATI shortages, I see no reason why they couldn't have this out by the end of March or earlier. This leads me to think, though rather wishfully, that a G5 might make it into the PB in late April. A single 1.6 Ghz chip might be able to run cool enough for the portable. This is certainly a very spectulative guess, but it just seems that a G4 update shouldn't take that long.

[RBMaraman]

At this rate we might as well just wait till September for the promised 3 GHz chips. Also, I don't care about a G4 Powerbook update. No way I'd buy until it has a G5 in it.

I think you might be right. We all got used to somewhat frequent updates with the G4 chip, but maybe something different is happening with the G5.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Apple and IBM surprised us with a 3GHZ chip next month.

[JamesDPS]

[QUOTE=hayesk]What will a slightly faster PM G5 do for you that the current one won't?
QUOTE]

Nothing, it'll just do it faster ;)

Actually, as a composer (using Logic), there are things that a faster machine will do that a slower one (even with all other things being nearly equal) can't, namely number of simultaneous independent samples, number of simultaneous effects, etc., which rely on processor as well as RAM. Sure, I guess I could buy a PM and a wintel machine with Gigastudio, but as many have also said, I'd rather not buy a 6-month old computer for "new computer" prices, and I want a complete studio in one PM! A TB of internal storage would be sweet, too :D (but clearly that's irrelevant with those nifty LaCie FW800 externals).

Not that I mean to step on any toes -- I definitely like your line of thinking! :cool:

[AidenShaw]

including a HyperTransport bus speed that could be as high as 800 Mhz (if the chip is 1.6 GHz and the do a 2-to-1 ratio.)

The HyperTransport bus is *not* the memory bus or the Front Side Bus. The FSB is the one that currently is at 2-to-1 (although other ratios are possible).

Check this picture at http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html:

http://www.apple.com/powermac/images/architecturediagram06232003.jpg

HyperTransport is between boxes 4, 6 and 7. The 2-to-1 FSB is link #1 and #2.

HyperTransport can run at 200, 400, 500, 600 or 800 MHz. It runs at 800 MHz in all of the Power Mac G5s.... (see http://www.cotsjournalonline.com/pdfs/2003/06/cots06_hardassets3.pdf).

[ultrafiel]

Ok, so I'm still waiting to buy my G5 tower. I want one now, but it's not going to happen until the update whenever that is. In the meantime, I get more money, and can buy more RAM and whatever when the time comes. Good thing is that if these rumors are true, then new video cards will be out, and possibly they will put PCI Express for those new cards. ATI's roadmap shows that there new cards will have two versions for each model one AGP8x and the other PCI Express, this will happen for the next year, until it is only PCI Express. (My info comes from a linked story through slashdot). Also, if the whole line goes dual that would be great, as then the low-end becomes much more attractive and saves me money. If it is dual then it should be close to what the dual 2.0 is today, but at a much cheaper price. As long as I have 8 slots for RAM and some PCI-X then I'm good to go. So let's look on the bright side. I'm all up for models coming out soon though, my birthday is next week, that would be great, although I'm not counting on it.

[TRiPod]

the delay is worth saving the money on the graphics card for me. i dont need 256mb, but i do need 128. this is gonna save me lots.

[Grimace]

I think one of the most undervalued aspects of a computer is the hard drive speed. Put in 10,000RPM drives!!!

[ryanw]

DUAL CPU laptop?
What at under 1" you must be joking, what about your battery life, it isnt Apple to do this.

Part of the marketing campaign for the DUAL PowerBook could be that you could take it with you on camping trips. Show a guy taking a few pictures early morning, come back to the camp site open the powerbook, kinda' warm his hands up as he touchs the powerbook. Dump his morning pictures into iPhoto, close the top, flip it upside down n' put on a pot of coffee and start frying eggs right on the belly of the laptop.. cut to him wiping down the powerbook, throwing it in his bag and then to the sunrise with him in a hamock sipping his steaming coffee with a big smile on his face. Fade to black with white apple logo center screen. Like on the back of the powerbook.

That actually sounds like fun. I might have to make that short film....

[invaLPsion]

Apple wouldn't have any problems cooling a dual 2.5 GHz. But they might have problems cooling a dual 3 GHz! People, the next updates aren't going to be up to dual 2.5, they're going to be up to at least dual 3.0! They will keep these around until MWSF 2004, then update to the G6 at 4+GHz.

Me and NeatGekko are going to be right on this one. These will be the specs of the next update:
1. up to dual 3.0 GHz
2. 4 models
3. dual 3.0 GHz will be $3000+.

As NeatGekko says, cheers! :D

[WM.]

LOL! This has to be one of the funnier posts on these forums. I'm definitely a math-and-science kind of guy, but gimme a break! Lemme translate some of this:

Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Known: Conductive Heat Transfer clearly shows that the more current required to power a surface area the greater amount of heat that black body surface will emit.
"More power = more heat."

Experimentations: The Convective Heat Transfer of this volumetric housing for the Workstation will require a flow increase from fans to move the increased amount of conductive heat transfer these processors will produce.
"More heat ---> bigger fans."

For a single CPU this is not an issue because the system will emit lower amounts of heat dissipation than the prior 970 CPU.
"Newer design = less heat = less problems with heat."

The cost of these systems must be the same or less than their predecessors at similiar configurations, in order to be competitive within the market.
"People like cheap stuff."

The time to market cannot be delayed too long in order to maintain a positive market perception.
"It looks bad when you don't update your products often enough."

Suppliers have to be able to provide parts in quantities that are on par or greater than those supplied for the current system configurations, assuming a market growth curve.
"You need parts to make Power Macs."

Acceptable heat measurements have to be tested, in various work environments to determine the feasibility of hardware designs that will house these new CPUs.
"You gotta test stuff before you release it."

In the end, if the market pressure to roll out new systems supercedes the option of Quad Processor Systems than a fallback design has to be rolled out, in place of the desired configuration,
"You gotta have a Plan B."

until such systems exceed the Factors of Safety (FS) required of them for end user consumption.
"Customers don't like products that are too hot."

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but really, you don't need to use all them big fancy words to say what everyone else already has...

Thanks for the laugh
WM

[Soire]

Apple wouldn't have any problems cooling a dual 2.5 GHz. But they might have problems cooling a dual 3 GHz! People, the next updates aren't going to be up to dual 2.5, they're going to be up to at least dual 3.0! They will keep these around until MWSF 2004, then update to the G6 at 4+GHz.

Me and NeatGekko are going to be right on this one. These will be the specs of the next update:
1. up to dual 3.0 GHz
2. 4 models
3. dual 3.0 GHz will be $3000+.

As NeatGekko says, cheers! :D


Just as he said they'd be out by the end of February?

The more people blabber about how 3Ghz G5s are coming out any day now, the more likely it seems nothing is going to be released until june, and then we won't get our hands onto them until september. What misery...

[Vlade]

P4EE die size: 237mm^2
970fx die size: 60mm^2

And the 100 watts for the P4 is max, 25 watts for a 970fx would be nominal, max is something like 50-55 watts (each).

That is the 130nm die, the 90 will be smaller (for the P4). But really die size isn't that big of a factor in cooling, it is mostly the HSF and case cooling.

And I always am talking max power, because thats what apple and intel have to go by, because there are millions of people that are using the full power with programs like Folding and SETI. And I am almost positive that 25 watts is max for the 90nm 970, and 50 was max for the 130nm version

[Vlade]

The standard cooler will run the CPU at 65 Degrees C when idle and roughly 75 when under load thats damn hot considering the use of a heatsink that big and a fan thats as load as a jet engine (45-55db's). Really you liquid cool the b##stard and run in in silence I say, like I said air-cooling is dead. Apple is concerned with the noise I think.

Those numbers are absolutely crap, or your source has VERY bad cooling! I am into PC Overclocking, so I know that ideally you want about 40degrees C for a stock machine, 50 for a little hot, and 60 for extreme hot. Any hotter you are really hurting your CPU.

[Florida Gator]

Im not trying to make a technical argument here, but wouldn’t from a marketing standpoint, a G5 Powerbook make a lot of sense? I mean wouldn’t apple be trying to rush them out asap?

[Rocketman]

Nice thought but marketable suicide! What use would a powermac be if you could have the same performance as a portable!?!

That is a bad thing how?

The future is portables AS primary machines and peripherals for your desktop work.

I have been using a portable as a primary machine for about 3 years now and couldn't be happier. When I need a large monitor, I plug it in. When I need RAID I plug it in.

If you need anything faster there is always an X-serve system (or a 4U set of X-serves) to handle fiber channel or fast math.

Rocketman

[skinEman23]

Im not trying to make a technical argument here, but wouldn’t from a marketing standpoint, a G5 Powerbook make a lot of sense? I mean wouldn’t apple be trying to rush them out asap?

a rushed product is often a crappy product. I'd rather have a quality G4 than a rushed G5 with all sorts of kinks.

[ionas]

...yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5...

it is possible with the pentium-m / centrino; intel has to release a new chipset, and its done.

it wont happen, cause it doesnt make much sense (personally i would welcome a powerbook system with 4 1ghz g5 more than one with a single 2ghz, but that wont just happen imho)

[G5support.com]

While no specifics are available, one would assume that Apple will be using the new PowerPC 970FX (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/02/20040211143241.shtml) upcoming revisions. The 90nm chip should run cooler than its 130nm counterpart.

These processors actually run hotter because they are smaller in size. That could be one reason they are going to water-cooling. I'm sure you will see the PowerBooks water-cooled also.

[AidenShaw]

These processors actually run hotter because they are smaller in size. That could be one reason they are going to water-cooling. I'm sure you will see the PowerBooks water-cooled also.

That's a key point - it's not that there's more heat than other CPUs, the problem is that it's more concentrated.

Picture:


a 25 watt Titanium Powerbook
a 25 watt light bulb
a 25 watt soldering pen (typical for electronics)


The Powerbook gets kind of warm if it runs for a long time, particularly if the airflow is somewhat restricted (on your lap, or on cloth).

The light bulb isn't super hot, but you won't be able to hold your fingers against it for very long.

The soldering tip - you don't want to touch at all.


All three of these produce the same amount of heat, but the concentration is different.

So, if Apple goes to a Cooligy-like liquid cooling system, it won't because of massive amounts of heat - it will be because it's the best way to deal with a concentrated heat source.

On the other hand, pure silver is only about $7 per ounce, so a silver heat sink connected to heatpipes might be far cheaper and more reliable! (http://www.kitco.com/market/)

[173080]

Those numbers are absolutely crap, or your source has VERY bad cooling! I am into PC Overclocking, so I know that ideally you want about 40degrees C for a stock machine, 50 for a little hot, and 60 for extreme hot. Any hotter you are really hurting your CPU.


Those numbers are absolutely crap too. 60C and you're hurting the CPU? Come on! My Athlon MP's are rated to work at up to 95C, so I seriously dont see how 60C is a problem.


Anyway, I'm still waiting for the updated PowerBooks. I really want a 15" PowerBook G4, but I seriously dont want a notebook that is already 7 months old. I dont *need* it right now, so I might as well just wait. The only thing I'd like improved in the 15" PowerBook is the Video Card. The 64MB 9600 is just too weak. I want 128MB for serious gaming during class :D

[gop007]

Personally I think it's a combination of several things:

- 1 - Delivery problems with some parts
- 2 - To much stock of old 2 Ghz Macs
- 3 - Apple wants enough production to keep up with the demands and doesn't want to end up in a situation like last time (angry waiting customers)
- 4 - Waiting for another product to be ready first (New Displays for example) because a lot of people would be pissed If they buy new G5s with old displays and then after a month, the New displays also arrive.
- 5 - OS 10.3.3 must be released first to support the new hardware! making CD's and spread them etc.)

I agree with you. I don't think there is too much stock of Dual 2 ghz however. The biggest reason is profits. Apple wants to sell as many old machines before cutting the prices. In the mean time they will make much more if they could deliver the product on time. Given the growing economy with a boat load of tax returns, we will see a record sale of PowerMacs come April and May.

[Naimfan]

Huezo--

"I want 128MB for serious gaming during class"

I hope you're either a college student or a law student like me--anything but a med student! :D

Bob

[Sir_Giggles]

While you are waiting for Apple to build a PowerBook G5, you can already build your own.. And it's a Dual G5 2Ghz too!

check out the picture

http://www.spymac.com/gallery/show_photo.php?picid=84848

[invaLPsion]

Just as he said they'd be out by the end of February?

The more people blabber about how 3Ghz G5s are coming out any day now, the more likely it seems nothing is going to be released until june, and then we won't get our hands onto them until september. What misery...

Dates change, specs don't. You'll see... ;)

[MrSugar]

Those numbers are absolutely crap too. 60C and you're hurting the CPU? Come on! My Athlon MP's are rated to work at up to 95C, so I seriously dont see how 60C is a problem. ....

Actually he is right and so are the numbers. Athlons are rated to high temps but run best in between 40 to 55 C (55 being rather hot). Esspecially thinking about extra heat that processors get to while running high usage apps and games.

THIS being said, the g5 heat sinks ARE HUGE, and with 90nm chips, should easily be able to be cooled efficiently. Unless Apple goes for the water cooling option, which is very doubtful, at least on this gen powermac. I can see too many issues popping up if Apple went water cooled, tons of complaining customers, plus it is way more expensive.

[ZildjianKX]

Glad I didn't wait for the Rev B G5s... its been nice having a G5 for the past 6 months.

[Vlade]

Those numbers are absolutely crap too. 60C and you're hurting the CPU? Come on! My Athlon MP's are rated to work at up to 95C, so I seriously dont see how 60C is a problem.


Anyway, I'm still waiting for the updated PowerBooks. I really want a 15" PowerBook G4, but I seriously dont want a notebook that is already 7 months old. I dont *need* it right now, so I might as well just wait. The only thing I'd like improved in the 15" PowerBook is the Video Card. The 64MB 9600 is just too weak. I want 128MB for serious gaming during class :D

Actually he is right and so are the numbers. Athlons are rated to high temps but run best in between 40 to 55 C (55 being rather hot). Esspecially thinking about extra heat that processors get to while running high usage apps and games.


Thanks MrSugar, there is no way a CPU would run at 95 degrees C, it would start to melt! Most all computers shut down if the temperature goes from 60 to 70 degrees (changeable in BIOS).

Here are some threads

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=88662 - Guy bitching about 45 load and 25 idle with a 3.2GHZ that uses 95 watts

http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=89720

And alot more if you look around that forum, I am to tired.

[mactarkus]

At Macworld Expo, a guy, who should know and shall remain nameless, let it slip to me that the Rev 2 G5 was in the works and it would sport the 256 MB ATI video card. The only thing he didn't know was when we would see it. I'm hoping it's soon so I can run the retail version of UT2K4 on my brand new G5. I've been waiting since the Expo to make the biggest Mac purchase of my life. I'm going to get a dual G5/X.X MHz with everything on it! Whoo hoo!

[173080]

Huezo--

"I want 128MB for serious gaming during class"

I hope you're either a college student or a law student like me--anything but a med student! :D

Bob

I'm still a High-School Student, lol.
I was planning to play during Government Class anyway. :D

[invaLPsion]

At Macworld Expo, a guy, who should know and shall remain nameless, let it slip to me that the Rev 2 G5 was in the works and it would sport the 256 MB ATI video card. The only thing he didn't know was when we would see it. I'm hoping it's soon so I can run the retail version of UT2K4 on my brand new G5. I've been waiting since the Expo to make the biggest Mac purchase of my life. I'm going to get a dual G5/X.X MHz with everything on it! Whoo hoo!

If you're telling the truth, I like it. My friend thinks that his 3.2 P4 will be able to beat my rev B dual G5 in gaming when the new G5s come out. I intend to destroy him. :D

[invaLPsion]

Glad I didn't wait for the Rev B G5s... its been nice having a G5 for the past 6 months.

Of course you wouldn't wait. Six months ago the Rev B G5s weren't even close to coming out. Duh. :p

[Naimfan]

I'm still a High-School Student, lol.
I was planning to play during Government Class anyway. :D

Huezo--

Even better! :D

GO DOG GO!!!

Bob

[dwsolberg]

Where is the source for the actual size of the chip? Obviously the chip itself is bigger than 90nm (1/1000 the width of a human hair). So how big is it? If it's half as big as the 130 nm chip, then that's the same surface temperature in proportion to surface area (IBM says the 90nm 970 uses 24.5W at 2GHz. The 130nm 970 uses 51W at 1.8GHz).

So I'm wondering what the surface area difference actually is between the 90 nm and 130 nm chips? Anyone know?

[invaLPsion]

Where is the source for the actual size of the chip? Obviously the chip itself is bigger than 90nm (1/1000 the width of a human hair). So how big is it? If it's half as big as the 130 nm chip, then that's the same surface temperature in proportion to surface area (IBM says the 90nm 970 uses 24.5W at 2GHz. The 130nm 970 uses 51W at 1.8GHz).

So I'm wondering what the surface area difference actually is between the 90 nm and 130 nm chips? Anyone know?

I'll tell you when I pick up my Rev B G5 later this month. :D

[geigerf@chem.no]

Ok, so I'm still waiting to buy my G5 tower. I'm all up for models coming out soon though, my birthday is next week, that would be great, although I'm not counting on it.

WAIT - HANG IN TIGHT - DON'T BUY - WAIT IT OUT - DON'T BUY YET.
As the germans say: anticipation provides the most happines. just wait it out, folks.

[Kagetenshi]

macilosh, wy do you act like you know everything? What is this 60 thing?

and if you were anything but faking your knowledge, wouldn't you probably not be a "newbie"? :confused:

Everyone has to join sometime, you know.

~J

[geigerf@chem.no]

They are out. brand new. And they don't overheat.
http://www.spymac.com/upload/gallery/user_29510/medium/upload_84848.jpg

[gwuMACaddict]

I'm sure you will see the PowerBooks water-cooled also.

i'm sure you won't... where are you gonna put the resiovior for the cool water??

crikey people...

[topicolo]

i'm sure you won't... where are you gonna put the resiovior for the cool water??

crikey people...

Behind the LCD? Seriously, if the powerbook was slightly thicker, it could work. The back of the screen could be the radiator.

[oingoboingo]

You and how many others? I know 42 G5 2.0 machines with nary one with a glitch at an illustration design house, I have seven friends with G5s, one used to have this weird intermittant fan chirp but it's gone almost inaudable. I own a G5 1.8 DP, not a single problem, only one odd crash in a few months of use but I use some high end audio stuff that was buggy back on a G4. Sorry to hear you have bad luck, but I wouldn't say it's a blanket statement at all.
I wasn't making a blanket statement...I was providing a counter example to one. Check the Apple support forums...there are literally hundreds of posts relating to each of the noisy power supply and the BSOD (Black Screen of Death) problems. I'm sure the majority of G5s are perfect...but there's also a decent number of G5 owners out there with lemons too, and unfortunately I have experienced this myself twice over now. I'm not saying that everyone's G5 is broken, I'm just saying that it's not correct to claim that the G5 rollout occurred without a hitch.

[afields]

noooooooooo!!!!

[aswitcher]

Behind the LCD? Seriously, if the powerbook was slightly thicker, it could work. The back of the screen could be the radiator.

And when something goes wrong it spews steam out of the Apple Logo on the back! :D

[silvergunuk]

I agree with inval on this one. I think apple will skip the 2.5 and go on to 3.0 ghz...2.5 being the lowest spec. Steve did say 3 ghz within the year so i think if they announce them at the end of this month, it'll take 2 months to ship them and then they can announce the G5 powerbooks at the WWDC.

My predictions are Dual 3ghz, PCI-Express, 1 TB Hard Drive space, 16 GB Ram Capability (even though you can already do that) and Hypertransport 2.0.

[mvc]

My predictions are Dual 3ghz, PCI-Express, 1 TB Hard Drive space, 16 GB Ram Capability (even though you can already do that) and Hypertransport 2.0.

<troll>And you still won't be able to get any games for it</troll> :rolleyes:

[klaus]

<troll>And you still won't be able to get any games for it</troll> :rolleyes:

don't think you'll be buying a powermac like this one, to play games...really

[silvergunuk]

<troll>And you still won't be able to get any games for it</troll> :rolleyes:

Like i'm gonna blow £2000+ to play corridor shoot em ups and god sims. I can always install xp on it and keep it stored in my shed where I would fiddle around with it's insides to get an extra 2 fps out of Quake and unreal...

[army_guy]

Those numbers are absolutely crap, or your source has VERY bad cooling! I am into PC Overclocking, so I know that ideally you want about 40degrees C for a stock machine, 50 for a little hot, and 60 for extreme hot. Any hotter you are really hurting your CPU.

3GHz prescot running using standard HSF in a typical OEM chassis.

[army_guy]

That is the 130nm die, the 90 will be smaller (for the P4). But really die size isn't that big of a factor in cooling, it is mostly the HSF and case cooling.

And I always am talking max power, because thats what apple and intel have to go by, because there are millions of people that are using the full power with programs like Folding and SETI. And I am almost positive that 25 watts is max for the 90nm 970, and 50 was max for the 130nm version

The larger die size will actually make cooling easier as the heat is more spreadout and not so concentrated, think of it as Watts/mm^2. As for the max power dissipation it is much higher than you think. The 3GHz prescot last time I heard was around 115-120W with the 3.4GHz at 140-150W, whether or not these are accurate is another matter, however in my experience values provided by manufacturers are lower.

[immaculate]

Apple Store is advertising RAM discounts if you buy a new G4, G5 or iMac now - the offer ends 27 March. So would that indicate no new G5s or iMacs before that date?

Has anyone ever correlated the relationship between Apple's special offers, price reductions etc and the launch date of a new or updated product?

[army_guy]

That's a key point - it's not that there's more heat than other CPUs, the problem is that it's more concentrated.

Picture:


a 25 watt Titanium Powerbook
a 25 watt light bulb
a 25 watt soldering pen (typical for electronics)


The Powerbook gets kind of warm if it runs for a long time, particularly if the airflow is somewhat restricted (on your lap, or on cloth).

The light bulb isn't super hot, but you won't be able to hold your fingers against it for very long.

The soldering tip - you don't want to touch at all.


All three of these produce the same amount of heat, but the concentration is different.

So, if Apple goes to a Cooligy-like liquid cooling system, it won't because of massive amounts of heat - it will be because it's the best way to deal with a concentrated heat source.

On the other hand, pure silver is only about $7 per ounce, so a silver heat sink connected to heatpipes might be far cheaper and more reliable! (http://www.kitco.com/market/)

Exactly!

As for silver, aquacomputer makes a sterling silver waterblock for 100 euros (2.5x the copper version) which is quite steep but the performance should be very good, but silver is still more expensive than copper and also difficult to CNC.

[army_guy]

Apple Store is advertising RAM discounts if you buy a new G4, G5 or iMac now - the offer ends 27 March. So would that indicate no new G5s or iMacs before that date?

Has anyone ever correlated the relationship between Apple's special offers, price reductions etc and the launch date of a new or updated product?

Dont buy your RAM from Apple, there samsung DIMMS anyway you can get them from samsung resellers for much less. Also crucial and micron memory is among the best.

[army_guy]

Actually he is right and so are the numbers. Athlons are rated to high temps but run best in between 40 to 55 C (55 being rather hot). Esspecially thinking about extra heat that processors get to while running high usage apps and games.

THIS being said, the g5 heat sinks ARE HUGE, and with 90nm chips, should easily be able to be cooled efficiently. Unless Apple goes for the water cooling option, which is very doubtful, at least on this gen powermac. I can see too many issues popping up if Apple went water cooled, tons of complaining customers, plus it is way more expensive.

The point Iam trying to make is that theres nothing wrong with the temps, it is that those temps are with a 45db fan! or more. so not only are your temps bad and theres one hell of a racket from your machine. Liquid cooling is safe if you choose your components carefully and use good quality fittings but it still remains in the hands of enthusiasts.

[army_guy]

If you're telling the truth, I like it. My friend thinks that his 3.2 P4 will be able to beat my rev B dual G5 in gaming when the new G5s come out. I intend to destroy him. :D

The G5 is not intended to be a gaming machine so expecting to beat the P4 is unrealistic. If your serious about games then get a PC not a G5. You also have to consider that game engines are making use of the DX8/9 features of which OSX does'nt have so when switching to OpenGL (to run in OSX) you will lose the performance plus the fact that your running a DUAL machine will lower performance slightly aswell. Although if on the otherhand your running at high resolution (1280x1024 and higher) and with anti-aliasing and anistropic then they will be close as you will be GPU limited not CPU limited.

[johnnyjibbs]

Dont buy your RAM from Apple, there samsung DIMMS anyway you can get them from samsung resellers for much less. Also crucial and micron memory is among the best.
The original poster wasn't requiring RAM, he was simply using that as a new product annoucment marker. But you are right, get memory from elsewhere such as crucial.

As for the original poster's question, I think there is some weight to that arguement, and I think some things have expired in the past prior to an update but it shouldn't be taken as gospel. It would make sense though, as it would allow Apple to get rid of current stock a bit more first before introducing updated machines.

[rog]

Wow, pretty much the entire lineup is overpriced and outdated. The newest machines, the iBook G4, is now 5 months old. The PowerMacs are 7 months old and were announced 9 months ago, an eternity in the computing world. Look for sales to be in the toilet this quarter. Virtually everything they have released since the G5 was announced has been underwhelming and overpriced. Their insane focus on the low to no margin iTune music store and iPod mini make no sense when they could be promoting the G5s more heavily. They probably have to sell 20 iPods and 5000 songs to make when they do off of 1 DP 2 GHz machine. I think Jobs' ego is starting to run Apple into the ground again.

[neonart]

Those numbers are absolutely crap too. 60C and you're hurting the CPU? Come on! My Athlon MP's are rated to work at up to 95C, so I seriously dont see how 60C is a problem.

I agree. My 1.24 MDD G4 runs at about 54°C with the copper 1.42 heatsink*. It used to run at 58.4°C almost constant with the standard heatsink.
I don't think Apple thought- well, these will fry at almost 60°... a hell, let's do it!


*(by the way, the 1.42DP heat sink is for sale) :)

[whookam]

Apple Store is advertising RAM discounts if you buy a new G4, G5 or iMac now - the offer ends 27 March. So would that indicate no new G5s or iMacs before that date?

Has anyone ever correlated the relationship between Apple's special offers, price reductions etc and the launch date of a new or updated product?

That's weird, here in the UK we have until May 8th!!! I hope that doesn't mean international shipping delays or something like that. Does Apple usually announce/ship hardware to everywhere simultaneously or do those outside the US usually have to wait?

[neonart]

They are out. brand new. And they don't overheat.
http://www.spymac.com/upload/gallery/user_29510/medium/upload_84848.jpg

Now, that's funnny!

I can hear Stevo now: The first dual processor, 64-bit laptop. Only 109 lbs.

[pjkelnhofer]

Wow, pretty much the entire lineup is overpriced and outdated. The newest machines, the iBook G4, is now 5 months old. The PowerMacs are 7 months old and were announced 9 months ago, an eternity in the computing world. Look for sales to be in the toilet this quarter. Virtually everything they have released since the G5 was announced has been underwhelming and overpriced. Their insane focus on the low to no margin iTune music store and iPod mini make no sense when they could be promoting the G5s more heavily. They probably have to sell 20 iPods and 5000 songs to make when they do off of 1 DP 2 GHz machine. I think Jobs' ego is starting to run Apple into the ground again.

Amen! I have been complaining about Apple's focus on iTMS and iPods for a couple of months now. Since the Super Bowl the front page of Apple.com was the Pepsi promotion for three weeks. Right up until the week before the mini launch. Now it has been the mini since. Apple is becoming a Digital Music company. It is fast approaching six months since they have offered a new computer (the G4 iBook). While I am sure that Apple is making money, I don't think this the best thing for loyal Apple customers. I love my iMac and am looking forward to Apple offering a reasonable priced replacement, but I have no interest in spending $250+ on an MP3 player.

Everytime Apple talks about marketshare and profits lately, it is related to the iPod and iTMS. We have heard claims that the iPod and iTMS for Windows were supposed to get people to switch to Macs, but other that anecdotal evidence on these boards. Has anyone see seen any real numbers to back this up?

Meanwhile, Apple has "the fastest personal computer ever" and what most people agree (even Windows fans) the most rock-solid OS on the market, but they are not marketing them at all. Where are the G5 commercials with dancing silhouettes or heck maybe even a nice OS X spot.

Hey Steve, it's the computers, stupid!

[e-coli]

Well, if they're having trouble keeping those GIANT G5 cases cool enough, there's no chance of us getting a G5 PowerBook anytime soon. Not unless the new PowerBook is made out of frozen nitrogen.

Just my opinion, though.

[Frobozz]

Amen! I have been complaining about Apple's focus on iTMS and iPods for a couple of months now. Since the Super Bowl the front page of Apple.com was the Pepsi promotion for three weeks. Right up until the week before the mini launch. Now it has been the mini since. Apple is becoming a Digital Music company. It is fast approaching six months since they have offered a new computer (the G4 iBook). While I am sure that Apple is making money, I don't think this the best thing for loyal Apple customers. I love my iMac and am looking forward to Apple offering a reasonable priced replacement, but I have no interest in spending $250+ on an MP3 player.

Well, I'm a sucker that just bought 2 mini iPods. I also buy probably $10 of songs a month, sometimes more, at the iTMS. I don't think Apple is going down the wrong path at all. They're doing exactly what they need to do in order to increase market share. They will sell more computers if they are sucessful, but this is how they increase their mind share.

I don't know about you guys, but I have several friends that, after buying an iPod, cnsidered a Mac on their next purchase... and they bought one. They aren't complaining about speed. Honestly, what the heck is wrong with a dual 2.0 GHz G5? Nothing. There's really nothing wrong with their laptop line-up, either. Sure, it's always nice to have more power, but only a select few of us actually need it. Most people don't, including those complaining about it on these forums.

People always need something to complain about. I think PM G5 updates are over-due, but I also don't think that's the most important thing for Apple to focus on right now.... and I say that even though I really DO want new G5's. I just see the bigger picture for what it is.

[eric67]

Unless, of course, they have redesigned the case to allow for two optical and four hard drives. And/or hotter graphics cards.

It is known that Apple had its fill of problems with the placement of HDs in the RevA G5 tower leading to overheating disks and consequently a rearrangement of temperature sensors. Why should this not happen again?
I suspect strongly Apple to bring a dual HDs PMG5 as default, gaining speed via the raid0+1 capacity of MacOSX, it will really boost performance.
So to keep price low, they have to use the same case, rearrange it to fit at least 2 HDs (maybe even space for 2 mores) + Superdrive included, so of course it make it a bit packed...
I rather think the delay (if there is any) is due to ATI or nVidia, graphic card manufacturers...and it could well be the same for the revision of the PBG4 or 5...

[Frobozz]

Meanwhile, Apple has "the fastest personal computer ever" and what most people agree (even Windows fans) the most rock-solid OS on the market, but they are not marketing them at all. Where are the G5 commercials with dancing silhouettes or heck maybe even a nice OS X spot.

Yeah, I agree with that 100%. They really do need to SHOW OS X in commercials. Here's a great way to sum up Windows versus the Mac:

Q. What do you do to restart your computer?
A, Mac guy: I go to the Apple menu, and choose "restart."
A, PC guy: I go to the "start menu", choose "shut down", then click a pull down list to discover that I can actually "restart."

One of many ways that the PC is a frustrating piece of cr*p.

Personally, it is my experience that people who use Mac OS X never get too frustrated. Only if they are die-hard PC guys who are unwilling ot bend... but even they agree it's good most of the time. I have personally seen hard care PC guys switch to Mac OS X based laptops because they are creaper, more portable, and more powerful than a Wintel version. The key factor? Os X 10.3.... because of the key commands, etc. that make Wintel people more at home.

[Tomaz]

I am actually one of those people. Bought a 2nd gen ipod, then a 3rd gen. And now I decided to get rid of my Dell P3 and buy a powerbook. While I was only owning an ipod, I was happy about apple's focus on the music business. But now since I wanna buy the next gen powerbook (whatever that is), I really think apple should go back focusing on computers!!
But anyway, the whole idea of bringing people to macintosh through the ipod seems to work ;-)

[DWKlink]

Well, according to the apple store, Xserve G5s have been upgraded to 5-7 weeks shipping from the 6-8 they have been firmly planted at for the last month.

Maybe any IBM related hold-ups with the FX are being cleared...

[AidenShaw]

A, PC guy: I go to the "start menu", choose "shut down", then click a pull down list to discover that I can actually "restart."

For what it's worth, on XP it's usually "Start->Shutdown <return>", since the "list" defaults to the last action chosen.


One of many ways that the PC is a frustrating piece of cr*p.

You need to lighten up - "different" doesn't mean "wrong" or "bad".... XP has some good ideas, and some bad, and some that are just different. Same with OS X.


And, a perfect counter-example that shows what a Windows person might consider to be a stupid thing about OS X:

On Windows, I eject a compact flash card by wrong-clicking and selecting "eject" from the context menu.

On OS X why do I have to delete the drive by dragging it to the trash? Shouldn't that delete the files on the drive?

[immaculate]

That's weird, here in the UK we have until May 8th!!! I hope that doesn't mean international shipping delays or something like that. Does Apple usually announce/ship hardware to everywhere simultaneously or do those outside the US usually have to wait?

Yes, it's 8 May throughout all European Apple Stores, 27 March for the USA and Canada, and no offer at all (that I could see) for Hong Kong, Singapore, or Australia. So it's hard to draw any conclusions from that.

I had the impression that Apple were pushing the existing G5s (the educational e-mails have also been pushing G5s recently) and wondered whether this presaged new models soon, ie 29 or 30 March.

Of course, the RAM offer is tied to specific qualifying models, so it could continue for the old models even after newer ones had been introduced - maybe Apple think that European customers would go for this, whereas American customers wouldn't? Or that European Apple stores have more inventory to offload?

[neonart]

For what it's worth, on XP it's usually "Start->Shutdown <return>", since the "list" defaults to the last action chosen.
And, a perfect counter-example that shows what a Windows person might consider to be a stupid thing about OS X:

On Windows, I eject a compact flash card by wrong-clicking and selecting "eject" from the context menu.

On OS X why do I have to delete the drive by dragging it to the trash? Shouldn't that delete the files on the drive?

You can right click, or control click on any mounted drive or cd and select "eject drive" in OSX also. It's the same.
But I do understand what you are saying. If you don't know- it seems odd, or wrong.

[modifier]

Originally Posted by Frobozz

>A, PC guy: I go to the "start menu", choose "shut down", then click a pull >down list to discover that I can actually "restart."

actually, not to bust balls, but, it's a somewhat intuitive placement. i can see how the option to restart would fall under the category of shutting down. a restart is merely shutting down and then auto-starting back up again, ya? so, which kind of shut down would you like? sleep? power-off? power-off-power-on? etc.

[gop007]

I agree with inval on this one. I think apple will skip the 2.5 and go on to 3.0 ghz...2.5 being the lowest spec. Steve did say 3 ghz within the year so i think if they announce them at the end of this month, it'll take 2 months to ship them and then they can announce the G5 powerbooks at the WWDC.

My predictions are Dual 3ghz, PCI-Express, 1 TB Hard Drive space, 16 GB Ram Capability (even though you can already do that) and Hypertransport 2.0.

I disagree. Apple will not skip the 2.5. In marketing, the life of a product is based how many new products are coming down the pike. Could Apple skip and go to 3 ghz? Yes, but they would lose out on the hunderds of thousands of customers that would have bought a 2.5 anyway. There will be other hunderds of thousands ready to buy the 3 ghz. Plus the 3 ghz system will be even more expensive potentially leaving many to wait even longer before upgrading. No need to speed the process along. The pattern Apple has established with 6 month releases has been profitable and manageable to a certain degree.

[kcmac]

"And, a perfect counter-example that shows what a Windows person might consider to be a stupid thing about OS X:

On Windows, I eject a compact flash card by wrong-clicking and selecting "eject" from the context menu.

On OS X why do I have to delete the drive by dragging it to the trash? Shouldn't that delete the files on the drive?[/QUOTE]"

If you right click in OS X you get a contextural menu. Select "Eject drive". Or you can click on the eject icon while in the finder.

Yeah, that is stupid all right.

[hayesk]

"And, a perfect counter-example that shows what a Windows person might consider to be a stupid thing about OS X:

On Windows, I eject a compact flash card by wrong-clicking and selecting "eject" from the context menu.

On OS X why do I have to delete the drive by dragging it to the trash? Shouldn't that delete the files on the drive?

If you right click in OS X you get a contextural menu. Select "Eject drive". Or you can click on the eject icon while in the finder.

Yeah, that is stupid all right.
Not only that, the trash can changes to an eject symbol. There's no way the user would think it will delete anything because there is no trash can to see as long as a removable disk or card is selected.

[AidenShaw]

...various...

Thanks for setting the record straight - it sounds like OS X has made the eject process more intuitive since the last time I had to eject a CD on a Mac.

I don't know if I like the idea of the trash icon changing based on context though.... That seems like a confusing bit of interface design.

[johnnyjibbs]

On Windows, I eject a compact flash card by wrong-clicking and selecting "eject" from the context menu.

On OS X why do I have to delete the drive by dragging it to the trash? Shouldn't that delete the files on the drive?
Note you don't actually drag to the trash, it turns to an eject symbol the moment you start to move it. Same as when burning CDs. I think it is very intuitive.

Actually I have a USB key and it NEVER ejects properly from Windows - whether that be our old family Win 98 computer with driver installed, new Windows XP home computer or the Windows XP Professsional uni networked computers. When you eject, you get a complicated dialogue box with 3 options to shut down. Never know which one so I try the top one and press stop. It always tells me it can't because the drive is in use, even when nothing else is open, and so I always have to yank the drive out without "safely removing hardware". Sure, it hasn't resulted in any data loss, but it's a pain. In OS X, eject via dragging to the trash, contextual menu or Finder sidebar works like magic with no dialog boxes or anything. ;)

Well anyway, not to get into OS X vs Windows XP wars again, back on topic..

I think Apple is doing the right sort of thing at the moment. Sure, they appear to be focusing mainly on iPods but I think we will gradually start to see the fruits of this labour in Mac sales. I do agree though that we need more Mac adverts, particualrly just ones that show off the hardware and OS X. I haven't seen anything in Britain since the G5 adverts were banned last September or so, apart from the occasional iPod advert.

Reagarding updates.. I'm sure we'll get something in the next week or so. Or even today, although I think hope is fading...

EDIT: sorry AidenShaw, seems like a dozen or so people before me posted all this! :D

[hughdogg]

Amen! I have been complaining about Apple's focus on iTMS and iPods for a couple of months now. Since the Super Bowl the front page of Apple.com was the Pepsi promotion for three weeks. Right up until the week before the mini launch. Now it has been the mini since. Apple is becoming a Digital Music company. It is fast approaching six months since they have offered a new computer (the G4 iBook). While I am sure that Apple is making money, I don't think this the best thing for loyal Apple customers.

They are focusing on digital music because it is an emerging market with a huge potential upside. Unlike the PC market, which has become a saturated commodity market (thanks to Dell). Apple isn't going to make huge inroads in the PC market because most people don't care about the usability experience, most users just want to get e-mail and browse some web sites, and any box will do for that. Think about it, when you go to buy something that is a commodity, do you always consider price as a bigger factor...of course you do. That is why people go to Costco or Sam's...you save what, a little bit, but is it worth the hassle of the long lines, and the membership fees? Like it or not, computers have become commodities, and most people shop for them that way.

Apple is known to create products that cost a little more, but offer far better usability and ownership experiences. When you start thinking about it in relative costs, it is easier for someone to pay $50-$100 more for an iPod then to pay $300-$500 more for a computer (basic Dell vs. Emac for example - and yes we all know they cost about the same with comparable specs, but the low sticker price of the Dell attracts people). Most people don't have lots of free cash to throw at a computer purchase, especially when they consider it a commodity, then can however find the extra $50 bucks to get an iPod.

Another thing that troubles me about all these posts, was that one of the reasons I switched to the Mac was that you didn't need to buy new hardware to still have a good experience (unlike the Windows world, when every new version basically requires a new computer). I've got a G3 iMac that is humming along nicely in Panther, and other then adding some RAM, I haven't had to do anything to it. I'll get a new computer probably within the next 6 months, and mostly because I want a superdrive. Yet a lot of folks on these boards are all over Apple about the G4's, and where are the G5 powerbooks, etc. I'll guarantee you that for most users (not graphics pro's) a new Powerbook or PowerMac is plenty powerful and fast for their needs. I'd rather have Apple continue their tradition of good products with great ownership experiences, and getting products right first, than rushing them to market to satisfy a relatively small market of power hungry users. I know it sucks if your one of those users, but a company can only satisfy so many niche markets...

Cheers, and oh...so no new Powerbooks on Tuesday? :)

[pjkelnhofer]

Well, I'm a sucker that just bought 2 mini iPods. I also buy probably $10 of songs a month, sometimes more, at the iTMS. I don't think Apple is going down the wrong path at all. They're doing exactly what they need to do in order to increase market share. They will sell more computers if they are sucessful, but this is how they increase their mind share.

I didn't say anything about iPod being for suckers. I don't have the money to spend on one. As far as, iPods increasing market share for Macs. We keep hearing that, but has Apple or anyone presented evidence that Mac market share has increased over the past year (since the iPod started dominating the digital music player market)? I don't think that Apple is going down the wrong path financially for them, but those of us wanting new computers are being forgotten.

[Kermit]

Honestly, I am expection the next revision PowerMacs to carry G5:s at 3Gz. That could very well be why Apple hasn't released them yet. They haven't gotten significant quanteties from IBM that clock at that speed yet. Look at the last release, mostly everyone bought the top-of-the-line machine. That will probably continue to be true for all those holding out for Rev. B:s.

[jettredmont]

Dont forget that powerbook will not have the same number of fans as the Xserve. As for the 90nm, as I said before they are more difficult to cool due to the smaller contact area hence even though they dissipate less heat they will run at higher core temperatures. The solution is to use bigger heatsinks or faster fans hence this could be one of the reasons for the delays though I would of thought Apple would have it sorted allready if they wanted faster CPUS.

There is no 60nm its 65nm, the cooling problem is much worse here.

The size of the heat sink determines the surface area of heat transfer (and, hence, the effectiveness of dissipation given a particular wind velocity and temperature). A smaller chip will not require a larger heat sink.

The real challenge in a smaller chip's heat transfer is twofold:

1) The smaller a chip is the less local any heat dissipation is. In other words, heat dissipatingfrom the ALU will affect the L1 cache, etc. Larger chips mitigate this somewhat, allowing each unit to generate a fairly large amount of heat without affecting the heat budget for other units (this is more than compensated for by the reduction in heat dissipation due to smaller interconnects, however).

2) The smaller chip has to transfer a lot more heat per surface area to the heat sink. Thus, the thermal gel layer has to be supurb, and the heat sink material itself needs to be able to conduct the heat away from the source well. No "cheap" heat sinks and gels here!

That having been said, I don't think that this is really a huge issue here. One can see that it will eventually be an issue, but I haven't heard rumblings that this is a "hard" problem for the engineers involved.

[jettredmont]

The standard cooler will run the CPU at 65 Degrees C when idle and roughly 75 when under load thats damn hot considering the use of a heatsink that big and a fan thats as load as a jet engine (45-55db's). Really you liquid cool the b##stard and run in in silence I say, like I said air-cooling is dead. Apple is concerned with the noise I think.

Liquid cooling moves the heat around inside the case to a more opportune area, and solves an air-flow problem, allowing heat generators to be closer to each other and still properly cooled. However, you still need fans to get the heat out of the case. Basic laws of thermodynamics are very hard to circumvent!

[pgwalsh]

Honestly, I am expection the next revision PowerMacs to carry G5:s at 3Gz. That could very well be why Apple hasn't released them yet. They haven't gotten significant quanteties from IBM that clock at that speed yet. Look at the last release, mostly everyone bought the top-of-the-line machine. That will probably continue to be true for all those holding out for Rev. B:s.This could be the case, but I doubt it. If you have a 2.2 Ghz through 2.8 Ghz part you should release them when available. Thinking that you're not going to release lower power machines until you biggest machine is ready seems like a backwards way of thinking. Move the products as soon as they're ready. If that means they have a release every 3 months then great.

[jettredmont]

Nice thought but marketable suicide! What use would a powermac be if you could have the same performance as a portable!?!

Ummm ... Does Apple care if you buy a PowerBook instead of a PowerMac? No. Their market doesn't suffer. Their overall market share doesn't suffer. Their overall usage share doesn't suffer.

Apple would gladly sell you a PowerMac in the form factor of a wrist watch if it could sell as many units at the same profit margins it currently enjoys. This wouldn't me market suicide; it would be leading a market revolution.

That having been said, the fundamental problems with the laptop form factor will continue to make it cheaper to produce high-end desktops instead of laptops: heat and power consumption are the primary demons here, and with significantly lower heat/power budgets you can't have the same screamingly-fact processors and busses in the laptop form factor as in the desktop. If Apple could shrink the current G5 architecture/specs to a laptop form factor, then for less cost they could boost the specs on the desktop to as always blow the laptop specs out of the water.

This is just a fact of life: laptops will always have less "power" than their desk-ridden brethren. On the other hand, eventually the market will adjust such that the portability factor is more important to the majority of us than the incremental power differential. Certain market segments have already made this switch: my wife wouldn't dream of leaving the couch to surf the web and write her English term papers. However, for some of us there's not a chance of this happening anytime soon: if a desktop saves me 10% on my compile times I can't afford to work on a laptop; if a desktop display gives me 2000 pixels across, I can't afford to shrink down to 1024 across.

[MrSugar]

Wow, pretty much the entire lineup is overpriced and outdated. The newest machines, the iBook G4, is now 5 months old. The PowerMacs are 7 months old and were announced 9 months ago, an eternity in the computing world. Look for sales to be in the toilet this quarter. Virtually everything they have released since the G5 was announced has been underwhelming and overpriced. Their insane focus on the low to no margin iTune music store and iPod mini make no sense when they could be promoting the G5s more heavily. They probably have to sell 20 iPods and 5000 songs to make when they do off of 1 DP 2 GHz machine. I think Jobs' ego is starting to run Apple into the ground again.

Ha, no. Trust me, 100,000 pre ordered Ipod Mini's is going to bring in plenty of profit. Plus you have to realize the majority of Apple consumers ARE NOT ON THIS FORUM, most of them don't keep up with the product updates like we do here. They buy a computer when they need to, and the truth is the current lineup appeals to most people just fine.

Have to think of things from another perspective sometimes.

[jettredmont]

Those numbers are absolutely crap, or your source has VERY bad cooling! I am into PC Overclocking, so I know that ideally you want about 40degrees C for a stock machine, 50 for a little hot, and 60 for extreme hot. Any hotter you are really hurting your CPU.


Those numbers are absolutely crap too. 60C and you're hurting the CPU? Come on! My Athlon MP's are rated to work at up to 95C, so I seriously dont see how 60C is a problem.


There is a MASSIVE difference between the ambient air temperature inside your case and the temperature on the chip itself. 40 Celsius is ... ummm ... 96F, for our US brethren. That's hot, but certainly not far enough beyond your average ambient outside-the-case temperature to be a realistic target for even in-the-case temperature. It is *definitely* not a valid target for on-the-chip temperature readings. Likewise, if you let the inside-case temp reach 90C (167F), then your Athlon either left this plane of existence some time ago, or is running probably closer to 120C or so.

It all depends on where you're reading your temps.

[MrSugar]

Honestly, I am expection the next revision PowerMacs to carry G5:s at 3Gz. That could very well be why Apple hasn't released them yet. They haven't gotten significant quanteties from IBM that clock at that speed yet. Look at the last release, mostly everyone bought the top-of-the-line machine. That will probably continue to be true for all those holding out for Rev. B:s.

The announced reports say the new 90nm FX has gone to 2.5 though.. not 3. I think you are going to be very disapointed, they would have to move the the next Gen chip to get 3ghz, it just isn't going to happen.

[jettredmont]

Well, if they're having trouble keeping those GIANT G5 cases cool enough, there's no chance of us getting a G5 PowerBook anytime soon. Not unless the new PowerBook is made out of frozen nitrogen.

Just my opinion, though.


Ooooh ... there's an idea!

Ditch trying to get heat out of the case entirely. Have the user buy blocks of liquid nitrogen at their corner drugstore (your corner drugstore sells liquid nitrogen, right?) along with their fuel cell refills. One fuel cell refill correlates to one liquid nitrogen block. Then use a liquid-based cooling pipe to transfer the CPU heat to the nitrogen block, and emit room temerature, harmless nitrogen from the cheese grater backside!

The coolest, quietest laptop ever made!

We could even partner up with Igloo corp to market nitrogen-transporting supplies! This could work!!!

[jettredmont]

For what it's worth, on XP it's usually "Start->Shutdown <return>", since the "list" defaults to the last action chosen.


Umm, no, that's only on Win2k.

XP offers three buttons (no drop-down list) and a "Cancel" button. While "return" does do whatever the last time was, there is no visual indication of this, so 99%+ of all XP users reach for their mouse and hit the button they want.


You need to lighten up - "different" doesn't mean "wrong" or "bad".... XP has some good ideas, and some bad, and some that are just different. Same with OS X.


And, a perfect counter-example that shows what a Windows person might consider to be a stupid thing about OS X:

On Windows, I eject a compact flash card by wrong-clicking and selecting "eject" from the context menu.

On OS X why do I have to delete the drive by dragging it to the trash? Shouldn't that delete the files on the drive?

Good point, bad example. On Panther, you right-click the drive and select Eject, OR click on the little "Eject" button (same symbol that's been on ejectable drives and VCRs and CD players and tape decks before them all for well over 30 years) next to the drive name/icon.

[Edit: I should have known with another page of posts to go that this would have been said a half dozen times already ... sorry :) ]

[macmunch]

Hi

I think I know why they wait for PowerMac release !!!

Its not the PC version Radeon9800XT or 9600XT its because of PCI Express !

In mid march is the worlds biggest Computer Fair the Cebit here in Germany.

ATI and NVIDIA already said that they will show of PCI Express cards there ...

So thats the point Apple waits for the PCI express version of the 9800XT or even the new R420. Its also predicted that the new cards will be available in late march or early april ... So we will see PCI express PowerMacs :D

[AidenShaw]

Honestly, I am expection the next revision PowerMacs to carry G5:s at 3Gz. That could very well be why Apple hasn't released them yet.

There seems to be quite a wait for a G5 Xserve.... Are they even shipping yet?

I tried a number of web searches, but didn't find any that said that an Xserve G5 had arrived. Xserve G5 hands-on reviews are hard to find as well.

Perhaps supplies of the PPC970FX are constrained at all speed levels?

[AidenShaw]

Umm, no, that's only on Win2k.

XP offers three buttons (no drop-down list) and a "Cancel" button. While "return" does do whatever the last time was, there is no visual indication of this, so 99%+ of all XP users reach for their mouse and hit the button they want.

XP uses the Win2K behaviour if standard user/password login is selected. Since this is the norm in the business world, I'm 88.38217% sure that your 99%+ figure is inaccurate.



Good point, bad example. On Panther, you right-click...

What was it like on 9.0, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2? Is this new behaviour, or old?

And, how can you wrong-click with Apple hardware? The mouse has no buttons! :eek:

[clr900]

XP uses the Win2K behaviour if standard user/password login is selected. Since this is the norm in the business world, I'm 88.38217% sure that your 99%+ figure is inaccurate.





What was it like on 9.0, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2? Is this new behaviour, or old?

And, how can you wrong-click with Apple hardware? The mouse has no buttons! :eek:
....You absolutely can't buy a mouse made by anyone else but apple because obviously apple hardware is not compatible with anything.

[allpar]

Not to get back to the subject or anything but the processor is probably the least of their heat worries with the Powerbooks. Have you considered that the bus will go from under 200 MHz to at least 800 MHz? And perhaps Apple did not work hard enough to get their bridges and other chips cool / power efficient enough. CPU is only one piece of the puzzle.

[mvc]

What was it like on 9.0, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2? Is this new behaviour, or old?

And, how can you wrong-click with Apple hardware? The mouse has no buttons! :eek:

Eject definitely wasn't like this under 9.0, changed in 10, AFAIK right from the start.

Rearding the 2 button mouse, Apple has given way here and there to improved PC style UI changes, but only grudgingly - Steve may resist selling a Apple branded 2 button mouse, but 3rd Party ones work correctly straight out of the box, the OS detects and employs them correctly, scroll wheel and all, once again only under 10.

Now if only we could get that cool XP crayon-box look, we'd have all the GUI advantages ;)

[army_guy]

Liquid cooling moves the heat around inside the case to a more opportune area, and solves an air-flow problem, allowing heat generators to be closer to each other and still properly cooled. However, you still need fans to get the heat out of the case. Basic laws of thermodynamics are very hard to circumvent!
Of coarse you need fans but depending on your radiator your not gona be using numersous 45db 80mm fans but a couple 120mm each at 15-25db depending on the fan. The point that Iam trying to make is that liquid cooling will get you lower temperatures without the noise no mater how big or how loud that HSF combination of an air-cooler will be.

[invaLPsion]

Hi

I think I know why they wait for PowerMac release !!!

Its not the PC version Radeon9800XT or 9600XT its because of PCI Express !

In mid march is the worlds biggest Computer Fair the Cebit here in Germany.

ATI and NVIDIA already said that they will show of PCI Express cards there ...

So thats the point Apple waits for the PCI express version of the 9800XT or even the new R420. Its also predicted that the new cards will be available in late march or early april ... So we will see PCI express PowerMacs :D

Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?

[invaLPsion]

Honestly, I am expection the next revision PowerMacs to carry G5:s at 3Gz. That could very well be why Apple hasn't released them yet. They haven't gotten significant quanteties from IBM that clock at that speed yet. Look at the last release, mostly everyone bought the top-of-the-line machine. That will probably continue to be true for all those holding out for Rev. B:s.

You are absolutely right, the next G5s will top out at 3 GHz and at least 2.8GHz.

[Vlade]

The larger die size will actually make cooling easier as the heat is more spreadout and not so concentrated, think of it as Watts/mm^2. As for the max power dissipation it is much higher than you think. The 3GHz prescot last time I heard was around 115-120W with the 3.4GHz at 140-150W, whether or not these are accurate is another matter, however in my experience values provided by manufacturers are lower.


The 3.2GHZ EE machine uses 95 watts I think, if not its close to there (within 10)

What i'm saying about die size is what you are saying, but it isn't as important as many people say, because as long as you have good thermal grease heat transfer to the heat sink isn't the problem, its the sink to air.

[Voiteur]

other options for ejecting with a mac (if you own a keyboard):
-highlight the icon of what you want to eject and hit command E (as in eject) on the keyboard.

and sure there aren't two buttons on the mouse but you can get the same effect by:
holding control on the keyboard while you click...
or holding the mouse click and tugging down slightly on it
both should result in the menu of various options

using two hands may be difficult during certain internet experiences... and then I guess the pc mouse is better

[satty]

There seems to be quite a wait for a G5 Xserve.... Are they even shipping yet?

I tried a number of web searches, but didn't find any that said that an Xserve G5 had arrived. Xserve G5 hands-on reviews are hard to find as well.

Perhaps supplies of the PPC970FX are constrained at all speed levels?

I mentioned it already yesterday, that I never heard of shipment of G5 Xserves so far. And here is a new article from appleinsider:

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=383

[klaus]

using two hands may be difficult during certain internet experiences... and then I guess the pc mouse is better

explain that a bit more in detail, cause seriously, I have no idea what you are talkin' about :D
at second thought..maybe you shouldn't tell..there's an audience..

back on topic now...

Since i've been waiting quite a while on the updated Powermacs, a month or perhaps 2 will not make a huge difference, to me that is off course, I rather have them pop out a decent, high quality machine, than one with a few bugs still in them... and hopefully they'll have a bigger stock when they do launch, cause I know a few people who're finger tricky..ready to place order on the rev B machines.. and they won't be the only ones (wild guess :p )

cheers

[a17inchFuture]

....You absolutely can't buy a mouse made by anyone else but apple because obviously apple hardware is not compatible with anything.

Don't know where this convo started, but the above statement is wrong. I have a mac, and a i have a kensinton mouse, three buttons, with a scroll wheel. All I had to do was install software.

Oh, and you can "wrong click" which i am taking to mean right-click, with the standard one button mouse by pressing and holding control before clicking

[Kagetenshi]

Someone missed a /sarcasm tag.

~J

[jwhitnah]

I mentioned it already yesterday, that I never heard of shipment of G5 Xserves so far. And here is a new article from appleinsider:

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=383

It's like the 1999 G4 500 MHz all over again. No uprade in nearly a YEAR (discounting the dual 1.8). Ain't no way we're gonna get to 3 GHz by September. I am soooo bitter!

[jettredmont]

Of coarse you need fans but depending on your radiator your not gona be using numersous 45db 80mm fans but a couple 120mm each at 15-25db depending on the fan. The point that Iam trying to make is that liquid cooling will get you lower temperatures without the noise no mater how big or how loud that HSF combination of an air-cooler will be.


And the point I am making is that, no matter how you transport that heat through the case, the volumetric air flow to *remove* it from the case has to be the same no matter what.

Liquid cooling allows you flexibility in design, and the ability to avoid having multiple huge heat sinks. You only need to have *one* huge "heat sink"/radiator (whichever terminology you prefer; they perform identical functions in a near-identical manner). However, if you need 14 CFM blowing through your laptop to cool off your two 3GHz processors, moving that heat to a central location and blowing air across one heat sink doesn't change that fact: you still need 14 CFM of air blowing in!

That having been said, yes, air blowing across one properly-designed heat sink will emit a bit less noise than having the same amount of air blowing across the rather jagged and obstructed surface of a motherboard, heat sink, hard drive, etc space. I don't think most of the noise comes from this source, however; I believe (perhaps unjustifiably) that most of the noise is just from the fan operation itself. I base this solely on the experience of hearing an empty case's fans start up, which was fully as loud (perhaps even moreso) as a loaded case with its fans on.

Also, remember that your liquid cooling mechanism will generally have a pump instead of relying on convective flow (especially in a might-be-running-upside-down laptop environment). Such pumps tend to add more noise again. And they add a small amount more heat to be removed, for whatever that's worth.

What liquid-cooling buys is flexibility, not less heat generation, not magical transport of heat away from the case without moving air, etc.

[jettredmont]

XP uses the Win2K behaviour if standard user/password login is selected. Since this is the norm in the business world, I'm 88.38217% sure that your 99%+ figure is inaccurate.


First, I'm in a business environment and none of our XP computers have the "standard" user/password (we use the default XP logins). Granted, though, my experience is likely not reflective of the larger trend. We don't use NT domains here either, and perhaps use of domains requires the "ugly" password screen instead of the "pretty" screen, I don't know.

Given, however, that last I heard XP was a significantly bigger hit at home than at businesses, I do believe it is unjustifiable to say that the "average" XP user does things as you say.

Second, in general, when someone says "99%+" it is shorthand for "just about all". Did you really have some odd belief that my number was a reflection of a formal user survey? Giving five digits past the decimal, though, would imply some incredible statistical precision. I am happy that you are able to judge the concensus of your mind with such precision!

"99%+" apparently is incorrect. "More than half" is probably about as accurate as I can give you right now, while I'd guess that the number of people who don't see the drop-down list is probably significantly higher than that.


What was it like on 9.0, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2? Is this new behaviour, or old?


The right-click/eject has been here since at least 10.0. I think it might have shown up in one of the 9.x releases, but it's been too long since I've had to use 9.2 so I can't say for certain. The Panther addition is the visible eject button next to the drive name/icon in the Finder.


And, how can you wrong-click with Apple hardware? The mouse has no buttons! :eek:

At which point any reasonable person would shake their head and walk away. But who said I'm reasonable? As you know, Apple works with any USB mouse out there, containing 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, or 101 buttons or more. Moreover, the control key plus a mouse click is exactly equivalent to right-clicking on the Mac OS.

[DHagan4755]

Here's my 2¢

I think that Power Macs and PowerBooks are, as has been stated somewhere else, awaiting for the 10.3.3 version to go final before we'll see revisions to these two products.

[clr900]

Don't know where this convo started, but the above statement is wrong. I have a mac, and a i have a kensinton mouse, three buttons, with a scroll wheel. All I had to do was install software.

Oh, and you can "wrong click" which i am taking to mean right-click, with the standard one button mouse by pressing and holding control before clicking
I was being sarcastic, I guess it can sometimes be hard to detect when you can't hear a tone of voice.

[neonart]

Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but... what's your point?
Are you implying that because the above-mentioned machine is a faster gaming machine Apple should not use the best/fastest technology available?

[invaLPsion]

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but... what's your point?
Are you implying that because the above-mentioned machine is a faster gaming machine Apple should not use the best/fastest technology available?

No, I'm seriously asking. Do you think that the new G5 would beat that computer?

[WM.]

Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?
No, I'm seriously asking. Do you think that the new G5 would beat that computer?
Say it with me now: aapppplleess toooo oorraannggeess.

Ain't no way to predict. I'd go so far as to say that there's no such thing as an unbiased, comprehensive benchmark when you're talking about either of the following:


Different OSes
Different chip architectures (PPC vs. x86)

With this kind of a comparison, you're talking about both. Plus, if you're really serious about gaming (to the point where you're spending $3k [!] on gaming machines), you probably shouldn't be using a Mac--at least, not for the games. If you have other high-performance computing needs, get the next graphics card option down and use the money you save for a console. If your computer usage consists of a) surfing the web and b) playing games, get an eMac or something and a fancy, custom-built Alienware or whatever.

I think PC People™ often discount the used Mac market more than they should. If you really are looking at a current eMac, a Digital Audio or newer Power Mac will get you exactly the same features (after a processor upgrade) and a ton more expandability for about the same price. So look into that as well. (This is all assuming you're a prospective switcher.)

WM (non-gamer)

EDIT: Blargh, it would be nice if sigs showed up in the Preview Post thing. (Maybe it should be an option?) I didn't see that you already have an iMac (G3). In which case I would say, a used PMG4 would still give you an upgrade and a lot more expandability. I still don't think a PMG5 is quite what you want. Plus, I'm not sure what "game load times" are anyway...

[HiRez]

if you're really serious about gaming (to the point where you're spending $3k [!] on gaming machines), you probably shouldn't be using a Mac--at least, not for the games. If you have other high-performance computing needs, get the next graphics card option down and use the money you save for a console.I agree, after years of putting an emphasis on having the very fastest PowerMac/PowerBook for the games, I found it was getting way too expensive. So, now I don't worry about buying Mac games, I got a PS2 and found a ton of great games for it, many under $20 now. They still look good, have smooth framerates, and I can play them on my 31" television with great audio through the stereo. There are zero configuration/upgrade/patch/compatibility woes to worry about, as all console games must work out of the box on identical hardware. Furthermore, I can rent games I'm not sure about at the video store. The best thing is I now save a lot of money and don't feel the Mac "second-class citizen" envy or upgrade guilt anymore.

[PretendPCuser]

They've been having to cool those bitches off for such a long time, they have more R&D dollars sunk into that than Apple. Lease the technology!

Just kidding.

Bundle a water cooler with any new G5 and be done with it.... Powerbook, well, uh, i don't know about that one.

[Kagetenshi]

I, on the other hand, am a semidedicated Mac gamer, and I disagree with your statements. Well, it depends greatly on the types of games you enjoy; I play Myth and its sequels, the Marathon series, the Doom and Quake series, and the original Unreal Tournament fetishistically; you can be serious about gaming without having to play every single new game that comes out. If you game professionally on something other than Quake III or UT, then maybe you need to write off the Mac platform, but otherwise it just comes down to how much variety you need.

~J

[WM.]

I, on the other hand, am a semidedicated Mac gamer, and I disagree with your statements. Well, it depends greatly on the types of games you enjoy; I play Myth and its sequels, the Marathon series, the Doom and Quake series, and the original Unreal Tournament fetishistically; you can be serious about gaming without having to play every single new game that comes out. If you game professionally on something other than Quake III or UT, then maybe you need to write off the Mac platform, but otherwise it just comes down to how much variety you need.
Right. But I assume invaLPsion is a pretty serious, cutting-edge gamer (or wants to be one), because he's asking about the prospective top-of-the-line Power Mac vs. a top-of-the-line PC. And even for the games that are on the Mac...I guess this was kind of my point with the first part of my post: there's no way to know how a G5 Rev. B will compete with a high-end PC. If I really had to guess, I might say that the PC will still win, because the PC version of whatever game is going to be more heavily optimized and MS has probably made darn sure that DirectX makes all the top games as fast as possible. Apple, on the other hand, has to work within the bounds of OpenGL to some extent (though I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to games on any platform, so feel free to jump in, everybody).

In any case, I don't disagree with you. :)

WM

[AidenShaw]

We don't use NT domains here either, and perhaps use of domains requires the ...

If it isn't required, it's probably the default. Domain security policy overrides local security policy.

I checked one of my XP systems that's part of the domain, and the screen for choosing between logins does not even appear as an option.

Just like your "99%+ meant 'almost all'", my absurdly precise number meant "this statistic is BS".... ;)

And of course I said "Apple hardware" because I knew that industry standard mouses work on a Mac. (My personal requirement is a 5 button wheel mouse, anything less cuts into productivity....)

Cheers!

[Deltan]

I just bought a 1Ghz 12" PowerBook on the weekend to replace my piece of crap iBook 700. Was that not a good idea? I will kick myself if they come out with G5 PB's this year. Mannn is there any time of the year where it's safe to purchase Apple hardware? :D

Not that I wanna get into the iBook thing, but basically it died a year ago, Apple Logic Board Replacement program fixed it once in early Feb, then it died again and I just said screw it and they bought it from me at a decent value. I also had 3 batteries under warranty as well as a new hard drive outside of warranty. It was a total lemon. :(

[invaLPsion]

Right. But I assume invaLPsion is a pretty serious, cutting-edge gamer (or wants to be one), because he's asking about the prospective top-of-the-line Power Mac vs. a top-of-the-line PC. And even for the games that are on the Mac...I guess this was kind of my point with the first part of my post: there's no way to know how a G5 Rev. B will compete with a high-end PC. If I really had to guess, I might say that the PC will still win, because the PC version of whatever game is going to be more heavily optimized and MS has probably made darn sure that DirectX makes all the top games as fast as possible. Apple, on the other hand, has to work within the bounds of OpenGL to some extent (though I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to games on any platform, so feel free to jump in, everybody).

In any case, I don't disagree with you. :)

WM

I am not a cutting edge gamer in any way. I am simply interested in making my friend eat his words about his 3.2 P4 kicking any G5s ass in gaming.

I know it is apples to oranges when comparing PCs and Macs in most applications but NOT in gaming. Frame rates can be measured and load times can be measured for the same game on different computers.

When I asked the original question I was merely asking for some fun speculation. It was taken way too seriously.

I hope that sorts things out... :rolleyes:

[greenstork]

Amen! I have been complaining about Apple's focus on iTMS and iPods for a couple of months now. Since the Super Bowl the front page of Apple.com was the Pepsi promotion for three weeks. Right up until the week before the mini launch. Now it has been the mini since. Apple is becoming a Digital Music company. It is fast approaching six months since they have offered a new computer (the G4 iBook). While I am sure that Apple is making money, I don't think this the best thing for loyal Apple customers. I love my iMac and am looking forward to Apple offering a reasonable priced replacement, but I have no interest in spending $250+ on an MP3 player.

Everytime Apple talks about marketshare and profits lately, it is related to the iPod and iTMS. We have heard claims that the iPod and iTMS for Windows were supposed to get people to switch to Macs, but other that anecdotal evidence on these boards. Has anyone see seen any real numbers to back this up?

Meanwhile, Apple has "the fastest personal computer ever" and what most people agree (even Windows fans) the most rock-solid OS on the market, but they are not marketing them at all. Where are the G5 commercials with dancing silhouettes or heck maybe even a nice OS X spot.

Hey Steve, it's the computers, stupid!

Thank god you're not running Apple because you haven't a clue. The iPod makes so much damn money that it allows Apple to continue to exist and be profitable. It's not like they will, all of a sudden, drop personal computers from their lineup. That said, a long term strategy of profitability will ensure that they continue to produce great computers. Many stock market analysts agree as noted by Apple's stock price:

Apple's iPod Could Transform Company (http://news.nasdaq.com/news/newsstory.aspx?pageName=News&selected=9999&Consumer=NDQ&cpath=20040301%5CACQDJON200403011156DOWJONESDJONLINE000696%2Ehtm)

[Barham]

Yes, that G5 will keep up with the PC. I can't say whether it will beat the pc or not, but I do know that it will stick with it. The PC will certainly not "kick any G5's ass". That particular person doesn't know what they are talking about. From what I've seen, games that are truly built for and optimized for OSX (Warcraft III in particular) run much better with a lower end system. War III on my Quicksilver G4 867 with a Geforce 3 runs many games just as smoothly as self proclaimed "Gaming PC's" and at the same detail level.

The problem with Macs for games is absolutely not performance (especially with games built for Mac OSX), rather it is the lack of games that is the problem. Most Mac games are ports and thus inferior code. A great amount of popular games aren't even published for Mac at all, and ports come out as far as a year later than their PC counter parts. If every company was like Blizzard, it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly that is not the case.


Your friend is wrong about the G5.

-Hasta

[neonart]

No, I'm seriously asking. Do you think that the new G5 would beat that computer?

OK. Cool. Sorry if I jumped a little on that one.
I would venture to say that a High End PC will have a gaming advantage over a Mac at least for some time to come. The reason is not the hardware- it's software. We've seen how the dual G5's have killed in independent PS tests. We've seen G5's make an evil supercomputer on a budget (so to speak @ $5+Mill). But there's nothing we can do about bad ports, unoptimized games, and weak video card drivers.
If a game developer said I'm making a really sweet game to run on PPC architecture, based on whatever we can squeeze from OpenGL, that takes advantage of the Velocity Engine and Dual processors, we would have an absolutely KILLER game. The last company to really get in the mindset of thinking of the Mac while making a killer title was Bungie*. We know how that worked out...

But regardless. When It comes to gaming on the Mac, it's not about who you can beat in FPS. It's about gaming on your platform of choice and enjoying it. That's why I love it. But I realize it'll be long before my Mac will out FPS my friends 6.9Ghz P7 with an ATI R9900.

It's funny though how these threads seem to always get into the gaming topic...

*Games like Warcraft, UT, Quake, and a few others are pretty good Mac games, but certainly not designed with the Mac in mind first.

[Borg3of5]

I may be a newbie around here, and probably the closest anyone here will ever be to being a 'dumb jock' type, but here goes.

Tonight, 02 March 2004, on TechTv's "The Screensavers," co-host Patrick Norton had a good 10 minute spot with an associate professor at Stanford University (20 miles or closer to Cupertino [read Apple HQ]). This professor displayed and discussed models, mock-ups, and chalk-boarded inner workings of the concept behind Cooligy.

Although the professor didn't mention Apple per se, the whole technology goes along the 'Think Different' campaign that Apple touts. The whole thing smells of Apple. The prof. also advised that he and his students at Stanford have been working with 'major' companies in developing the technology, and that a product featuring Cooligy will be released within the year.

I smell PM G5 rev.B, and PB G5's. Something is being water-cooled in the R&D section in Cupertino. :)

http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/shownotes/story/0,24330,3626775,00.html

[Kagetenshi]

If a game developer said I'm making a really sweet game to run on PPC architecture, based on whatever we can squeeze from OpenGL, that takes advantage of the Velocity Engine and Dual processors, we would have an absolutely KILLER game. The last company to really get in the mindset of thinking of the Mac while making a killer title was Bungie*. We know how that worked out...

Heh. After your first sentence, I hit "reply" with the thought in my head "If it were ten years earlier, Bungie would've been that company". It was only while editing your quote that I noticed you'd already mentioned them.

Man, I miss old-school Bungie. We need something like Bungie Mk. II.

~J

[a17inchFuture]

I have a great idea for a poll: What do you think will be the next powerbook?

A) G5

B) G4

C) G4 other (i.e. dual, etc.)

D) G5 other (i.e. cooligy tech, etc.)

And for conversation, what do people think is going to come out next and when? My vote is for g5 at 1.75 ghz and very little new technology in a new darker casing.

[johnnyjibbs]

I am not a cutting edge gamer in any way. I am simply interested in making my friend eat his words about his 3.2 P4 kicking any G5s ass in gaming.
My advice: don't get a dual G5 just because you want to prove a performance point to your friend. You'll probably find that the G5 doesn't win games-wise for the aforementioned reasons, but it will beat it on all other intensive tasks. But, do you really want to spend $3k on that for a point? Save the money, buy a console or a cheap high performance PC (even a cheap Dell will do the trick) and then get a cheaper Mac as your next one.

[wdlove]

My advice: don't get a dual G5 just because you want to prove a performance point to your friend. You'll probably find that the G5 doesn't win games-wise for the aforementioned reasons, but it will beat it on all other intensive tasks. But, do you really want to spend $3k on that for a point? Save the money, buy a console or a cheap high performance PC (even a cheap Dell will do the trick) and then get a cheaper Mac as your next one.

I have no interest in games. Don't need to impress any friends, that would be wrong anyway. Owning a PC is not an option. Really want the performance of a G5, then I can get a 23" Cinema Display. Having the performance of a dual G5, dream dual 3.0, will also help Stanford with medical disease research and the MacRumors folding team.


a17inchFuture, I want Apple to continue with the current case. Am looking for Rev. B interior upgrades & increase standandard memory.

[army_guy]

And the point I am making is that, no matter how you transport that heat through the case, the volumetric air flow to *remove* it from the case has to be the same no matter what.

Liquid cooling allows you flexibility in design, and the ability to avoid having multiple huge heat sinks. You only need to have *one* huge "heat sink"/radiator (whichever terminology you prefer; they perform identical functions in a near-identical manner). However, if you need 14 CFM blowing through your laptop to cool off your two 3GHz processors, moving that heat to a central location and blowing air across one heat sink doesn't change that fact: you still need 14 CFM of air blowing in!

That having been said, yes, air blowing across one properly-designed heat sink will emit a bit less noise than having the same amount of air blowing across the rather jagged and obstructed surface of a motherboard, heat sink, hard drive, etc space. I don't think most of the noise comes from this source, however; I believe (perhaps unjustifiably) that most of the noise is just from the fan operation itself. I base this solely on the experience of hearing an empty case's fans start up, which was fully as loud (perhaps even moreso) as a loaded case with its fans on.

Also, remember that your liquid cooling mechanism will generally have a pump instead of relying on convective flow (especially in a might-be-running-upside-down laptop environment). Such pumps tend to add more noise again. And they add a small amount more heat to be removed, for whatever that's worth.

What liquid-cooling buys is flexibility, not less heat generation, not magical transport of heat away from the case without moving air, etc.

Pumps are generaly silent, assuming you mount it properly to avoid vibrations and also insolulate it to minimise any noise but then again its only the high flow pumps that make any noise. As for the air flowing in this is decreased as all major heatsources are covered with water blocks hence they donot affect the ambient air in the chassis, iam assuming the radiator is external in this situation. Any remaining heatsources (RAM, mosfets, video card memory) i usally slap on large tall heatsinks (cut by myself from CPU heatsinks) to sort that out.

[army_guy]

Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?
No, the G5 is not meant to be a gaming machine, we have PCI-EXPRESS because AGP is running out of steam when it comes to DX8/9 games and also when using high resolutions/anti-aliasing/anistropic filtering etc.. hence more BW is needed to the CPU and RAM. As OSX games dont have DirectX theres no reason to use PCI-EXPRESS. PCI-EXPRESS for the MAC will be used for the video editing stuff and also due to the fact that the PCB design will be very simple comapared to AGP8X.

IF you want to play games a PC will provide more performance and a bigger list of titles It will also allow me to tweak/overclock, try different cooling techniques/components, use the latest components and generaly modify actual H/W, this PC i call this my experimental PC where I can try lots of different things.

[iChan]

actually kinda glad they are being delayed... i just bought a 15-incher.

i never intended on doing it, but the temptation was getting too great.

i was going to wait for the rev b powerbook g5. at least this new comp will make the wait less excruciating.

[djbahdow01]

Just wanted to let all of you know if you "need" a G5 Apple has had a lot of Refurbs on the Special Deals page lately. I was seeing just the singles 1.8s on lately and in the last few days ive seen the 1.6,1.8, and dual 1.8. Figured id just let you know.

[invaLPsion]

My advice: don't get a dual G5 just because you want to prove a performance point to your friend. You'll probably find that the G5 doesn't win games-wise for the aforementioned reasons, but it will beat it on all other intensive tasks. But, do you really want to spend $3k on that for a point? Save the money, buy a console or a cheap high performance PC (even a cheap Dell will do the trick) and then get a cheaper Mac as your next one.

I am getting a mac because I love and have used macs for my entire life. Beating my friend would be an added bonus... :D

[benoda]

When is anything by Apple not delayed anymore? Heck, the way things are going they tell you about something then it takes 6-8 weeks before you can buy it. Not to mention the delay prior to announcing it in the first place.....

[WM.]

I am not a cutting edge gamer in any way. I am simply interested in making my friend eat his words about his 3.2 P4 kicking any G5s ass in gaming.

I know it is apples to oranges when comparing PCs and Macs in most applications but NOT in gaming. Frame rates can be measured and load times can be measured for the same game on different computers.
Yes, they can be compared, but you're not really playing the same game. At least for good ports (see neonart's and Kagetenshi's posts), the code must be very different. It's still apples to oranges as much as any other application IMHO. Several posters have spelled it out pretty well, and I'd like to add another facet of the unfair PC advantage: ATI and Nvidia design their GPUs for DirectX first and OpenGL second. And usually, MS reciprocates: my perception is that DirectX often supports cool new features in GPUs long before Apple's implementation of OpenGL does.
When I asked the original question I was merely asking for some fun speculation. It was taken way too seriously.
That's fine, but when trying to spark fun speculation, it really helps to say so, and to avoid phrases like "I'm seriously asking".
I hope that sorts things out... :rolleyes:
Yup.

WM

[Telomar]

Pumps are generaly silent, assuming you mount it properly to avoid vibrations and also insolulate it to minimise any noise but then again its only the high flow pumps that make any noise. As for the air flowing in this is decreased as all major heatsources are covered with water blocks hence they donot affect the ambient air in the chassis, iam assuming the radiator is external in this situation. Any remaining heatsources (RAM, mosfets, video card memory) i usally slap on large tall heatsinks (cut by myself from CPU heatsinks) to sort that out.Pumps aren't silent by any means. They aren't that noisy but unless you're deaf they aren't silent (exception would be the ones that have no moving parts of course).

Air flow doesn't change except to due to better overall design of the air coolers (improving your heat transfer coeffs). You can prove this very easily by just doing an energy balance over the system. What you can do is move where and how the airflow takes place but you can't change the need for it, the laws of thermodynamics demand it. All water coolers do is give you flexibility in how you design the air coolers in a computer so you can design them more efficiently.

No, the G5 is not meant to be a gaming machine, we have PCI-EXPRESS because AGP is running out of steam when it comes to DX8/9 games and also when using high resolutions/anti-aliasing/anistropic filtering etc.. hence more BW is needed to the CPU and RAM. As OSX games dont have DirectX theres no reason to use PCI-EXPRESS. PCI-EXPRESS for the MAC will be used for the video editing stuff and also due to the fact that the PCB design will be very simple comapared to AGP8X.PCI-Express' development had absolutely nothing to do with DX8 or 9 and it offers absolutely nothing in terms of BW between CPU and RAM since the FSB will remain proprietary or on chip and PCI-Express doesn't connect the memory.

PCI-Express was developed because PCI and PCI-X didn't supply the bandwidth over the long term that was needed for expansion cards and was a pain to scale due to signal degradation and AGP was reaching the end of its rope as well. PCI-Express also offers a long list of benefits over current PCI, not least of which is point to point communications, full-duplex transfer, lower latency, hot-swapping, lower total cost and better power management. Gee none of that's useful in any way :rolleyes:

AGP was specifically designed for graphics but even current graphics chips don't utilise all the downstream bandwidth AGP 8x has to offer. The areas PCI-Express will be stronger for graphics are the improvement of latency and upstream bandwidth, which OS X and Longhorn will both appreciate as will video editors, support for more power, 60W over 25W, and better signaling. The upstream bandwidth will be particularly of interest to farming more stuff off to the GPU from the CPU. All of the major strengths of PCI-Express come out of its design as a PCI replacement though and are just as useful for Macs as PCs.

[JamesDPS]

I thought the pumps for liquid cooling ARE silent (check out the cooligy site), because (as mentioned) no moving parts - charged ions and the like. As for fan noise, wouldn't a large radiator with tiny channels be able to cool more efficiently than a regular heat sink using the same airflow, thus needing less airflow to do the same job? Obviously cooling a computer isn't JUST a question of airflow but of surface area / volume, unless the air coming out was the same temperature as the processor (which is impossible, of course, but you see what I'm saying?)

So liquid cooling would probably be slightly less noisy. Doesn't mean it's going to happen -- put it in the "quad processor" pile with the other things that people have been talking about for years that won't happen any time soon. At least, that's where my money is. Or will be. When the new G5 comes out. I'm betting some time between 5 days and 6 months, and that's my official prediction!

[WM.]

The areas PCI-Express will be stronger for graphics are the improvement of latency and upstream bandwidth, which OS X and Longhorn will both appreciate as will video editors, support for more power, 60W over 25W, and better signaling.
I couldn't possibly comment on most of your post, but I'm pretty sure AGP 8X Pro is out there (like on the PMG5), with up to 75 W of power available. At this point, there aren't any Mac-compatible cards that take advantage of it AFAIK, and the G5 can only supply 90 W to all the expansion cards, total, so with a Pro card you'll only have enough power for one PCI card, I think...so it's not tremendously useful right now. :) But it does exist.

FWIW
WM

[Cloetus]

A new PowerBook is at least 2 months off -- shortest lifespan of a new PB is 6 months and the average is 8 months, with 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years between new architectures. That means a all-new PB is a good year away.

[aswitcher]

A new PowerBook is at least 2 months off -- shortest lifespan of a new PB is 6 months and the average is 8 months, with 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years between new architectures. That means a all-new PB is a good year away.


Nooooooooo!!! :(

[Opteron]

No, the G5 is not meant to be a gaming machine, we have PCI-EXPRESS because AGP is running out of steam when it comes to DX8/9 games and also when using high resolutions/anti-aliasing/anistropic filtering etc.. hence more BW is needed to the CPU and RAM. As OSX games dont have DirectX theres no reason to use PCI-EXPRESS. PCI-EXPRESS for the MAC will be used for the video editing stuff and also due to the fact that the PCB design will be very simple comapared to AGP8X.

IF you want to play games a PC will provide more performance and a bigger list of titles It will also allow me to tweak/overclock, try different cooling techniques/components, use the latest components and generaly modify actual H/W, this PC i call this my experimental PC where I can try lots of different things.

The PM G5 is ment ot be the Best of the Best. In all areas, or so the price tag would suggest. While not owning a mac currently, I do belive OpenGL runs natively on the mac OS, and there are plenty of titles avaliable useing that code.

It's worth taking a look at www.ati.com for a full wrap on PCI-Express.

Also, it would seem odd to update the flagship model at this late stage, when the release of DDRII is so near.
An updated model in my opinion should have been released in late january just to tired people over before the release of a true Rev B machine with all the new bell's and whistles.

[army_guy]

I couldn't possibly comment on most of your post, but I'm pretty sure AGP 8X Pro is out there (like on the PMG5), with up to 75 W of power available. At this point, there aren't any Mac-compatible cards that take advantage of it AFAIK, and the G5 can only supply 90 W to all the expansion cards, total, so with a Pro card you'll only have enough power for one PCI card, I think...so it's not tremendously useful right now. :) But it does exist.

FWIW
WM

Well 60W isnt really enough for highend 3D cards so the higher power delivery of PCI express is obsolite allready (also considering the development of DUAL chip video cards and the current cards chew at least 50-70W). There is no 75W AGP standard its Apple's way of saying we can make our own. Theres AGP50 (provides upto 50W) mostly used for the WILDCAT cards and theres AGP110W (upto 110W) which powers high end cards from SGI and others.

As for DDR2 it will make systems (G5/P4/Opteron/FX) slower and has done allready for the P4, the latency is too high (CAS 4-5 vs CAS 2-3) and the clock speed is too low for it to out perform DDR1. Only when 667-800MHz DDR2 arrives will performance be higher. I should also mention the current price of DDR2.

512MB DDR2 400MHZ (CAS 5) $950 (it will drop, but IMO when INTEL releases ALDERWOOD/GRANTSDALE it will be around $600-$800.

VS

2048MB DDR1 400MHZ ECC Registered Crucial/Samsung (CAS 2.5-3) $999

and still the DDR1 will be noticibly faster.

[numediaman]

AppleInsider posted a little report about PowerMac delays (duh) -- then followed up with a report that the XServes have been delayed, shipping no sooner than the end of the month.

If true, this is not good for those of us waiting on G5 updates. I would suppose that the earliest we could expect an announcement would be March 30th, with shipping several weeks after that.

I have to say that Apple continues to be Apple -- slow, poorly thought out product introductions. Think about MWSF. Jobs introduced a new iLife -- but it turns out that iDVD was not ready for prime time. Jobs introduced the new XServe -- but as of today the new servers are not shipping (two months after the announcement). Jobs promised new products and an exciting anniversary year. Well, the first quarter really sucks: no G5s, no laptops, no displays, no servers, no iMacs. Yikes, nothing but a mini iPod and a couple of very minor revisions to software.

IBM might be a better supplier than Motorola, but unless Apple changes it won't mean anything will really improve. I suppose that two months from now, when I have a new G5 under my desk I'll feel better about this.

[a17inchFuture]

AppleInsider posted a little report about PowerMac delays (duh) -- then followed up with a report that the XServes have been delayed, shipping no sooner than the end of the month.

If true, this is not good for those of us waiting on G5 updates. I would suppose that the earliest we could expect an announcement would be March 30th, with shipping several weeks after that.

I have to say that Apple continues to be Apple -- slow, poorly thought out product introductions. Think about MWSF. Jobs introduced a new iLife -- but it turns out that iDVD was not ready for prime time. Jobs introduced the new XServe -- but as of today the new servers are not shipping (two months after the announcement). Jobs promised new products and an exciting anniversary year. Well, the first quarter really sucks: no G5s, no laptops, no displays, no servers, no iMacs. Yikes, nothing but a mini iPod and a couple of very minor revisions to software.

IBM might be a better supplier than Motorola, but unless Apple changes it won't mean anything will really improve. I suppose that two months from now, when I have a new G5 under my desk I'll feel better about this.

I agree -- aboslutely piss-poor so far. I think that Apple actual has somethign to be ashamed of with this showing. It is March, and if the rumor mills are correct, it seems we cant expect anything til the end of the month at earliest. And the fact their previously announced stuff has *kinda* shipped is pathetic.

Apple, you better give us some damn g5 pbooks soon, and no more g4 books. That is the only way you will be forgiven.

[a17inchFuture]

A new PowerBook is at least 2 months off -- shortest lifespan of a new PB is 6 months and the average is 8 months, with 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years between new architectures. That means a all-new PB is a good year away.

Its been more than the average "days since update"(check the buyers guide here), and its been almost a year and a half since jan. 2003, and will certainly be by the time anything PB ships.

So I guess my question is, what on earth are you talkin about? I strongly disagree with you and would like to point out that tehcnology controls the curve, not some prior history nonsense. And they have new tech, that would call for a new architecture. Apple doesn't sit on tech; new pb's will be here soon(ish).

[phonic pol]

The way I understand it, nothing is actually delayed because Apple hasn't announced any new products yet! So their not late on delivering because they haven’t said they'll deliver. General feeling on this thread is that Apple has announced delays when they haven't even said what's coming yet.

[spinko]

Dont forget that powerbook will not have the same number of fans as the Xserve. As for the 90nm, as I said before they are more difficult to cool due to the smaller contact area hence even though they dissipate less heat they will run at higher core temperatures. The solution is to use bigger heatsinks or faster fans hence this could be one of the reasons for the delays though I would of thought Apple would have it sorted allready if they wanted faster CPUS.

There is no 60nm its 65nm, the cooling problem is much worse here.

Why use fans ? Isn't liquid cooling the best for small foot prints ? Just a question, I'm no specialist..

[Kagetenshi]

As previously mentioned, unless your supply of liquid is large enough to not require any active heat exchange, which won't be the case in a small footprint, you still need a fan to move the heat. Liquid cooling just helps move the heat around so it can be removed more efficiently.

~J

[spinko]

As previously mentioned, unless your supply of liquid is large enough to not require any active heat exchange, which won't be the case in a small footprint, you still need a fan to move the heat. Liquid cooling just helps move the heat around so it can be removed more efficiently.

~J

Another quote from

http://www.theregister.com/content/3/33252.html

Intel, AMD and IBM could soon been shipping water-cooled processors to boost clock frequencies without putting extra strain on notebook, desktop and server heat management systems, courtesy of a new technique developed by Stanford University spin-off company Cooligy.

Doesn't that mean that the heatproblem looks like its resolved ?

[Kagetenshi]

Oh yes, it's entirely possible that the cooling problem will be solved using liquid-cooling techniques. It's just that at some point in the process those techniques will still involve fans.

~J

[army_guy]

Another quote from

http://www.theregister.com/content/3/33252.html

Intel, AMD and IBM could soon been shipping water-cooled processors to boost clock frequencies without putting extra strain on notebook, desktop and server heat management systems, courtesy of a new technique developed by Stanford University spin-off company Cooligy.

Doesn't that mean that the heatproblem looks like its resolved ?

This is the cooligy device?
This was designed to replace the current HSF combination (heat-sink-fan) only. It will not outperform a liquid cooling system and also you are limited to 1 heat source per cooligy allthough I dont see this as a problem but the size maybe. The best cooling system for now is bog standard liquid cooling with variations in adding TECS and chillers to provide below ambient temperatures. The ultimate cooler is by no doubt the vapachill systems but only viable for uni-processor machines and able to cool only 1 heatsource.

[army_guy]

Oh yes, it's entirely possible that the cooling problem will be solved using liquid-cooling techniques. It's just that at some point in the process those techniques will still involve fans.

~J

Theres nothing wrong with fans dude, any high performance cooling system will involve some sort of pump and/or fan, you have to live with it. If your worried about reliability then add redundancy and hotswap capability.

[Rower_CPU]

This is the cooligy device?
This was designed to replace the current HSF combination (heat-sink-fan) only. It will not outperform a liquid cooling system and also you are limited to 1 heat source per cooligy allthough I dont see this as a problem but the size maybe. The best cooling system for now is bog standard liquid cooling with variations in adding TECS and chillers to provide below ambient temperatures. The ultimate cooler is by no doubt the vapachill systems but only viable for uni-processor machines and able to cool only 1 heatsource.

According to the cooligy folks:
Microchannels as a means of cooling integrated circuits have been theorized since 1981, when Stanford professors Dr. David Tuckerman and Dr. Fabian Pease published research proving that microchannels etched into silicon could remove heat densities as high as 1000 watts per square centimeter.

So, first off, it IS a liquid cooling system and second, how many watts do typical liquid cooling solutions dissipate per centimeter? Over 1000W?

I was very impressed with the Cooligy demo on TechTV. Seems to be a much more elegant solution to liquid cooling.

[army_guy]

According to the cooligy folks:


So, first off, it IS a liquid cooling system and second, how many watts do typical liquid cooling solutions dissipate per centimeter? Over 1000W?

I was very impressed with the Cooligy demo on TechTV. Seems to be a much more elegant solution to liquid cooling.

That 1000w/sqcm is irrelevant, figures what about temperatures using actuall CPUS? How can it cool better than liquid cooling if it cant cool below ambient? It has no flexability as you would need a cooligy for each heat source hence more fans. So you can absorb 1000W, now how big is your radiator gona be to dissipate that so that your CPU doesnt overheat? still the same problem with dissipating the heat, you need a big radiator. OK a liquid cooling water block cant currenly absorb 1000W/sqcm but its been getting higher and higher through the introduction of higher power TECs/chillers 500W++. IMO cooligy will not compete with liquid cooling as it wasnt designed to, it was to replace the HSF.

[Rower_CPU]

That 1000w/sqcm is irrelevant, figures what about temperatures using actuall CPUS? How can it cool better than liquid cooling if it cant cool below ambient? It has no flexability as you would need a cooligy for each heat source hence more fans. So you can absorb 1000W, now how big is your radiator gona be to dissipate that so that your CPU doesnt overheat? still the same problem with dissipating the heat, you need a big radiator. OK a liquid cooling water block cant currenly absorb 1000W/sqcm but its been getting higher and higher through the introduction of higher power TECs/chillers 500W++. IMO cooligy will not compete with liquid cooling as it wasnt designed to, it was to replace the HSF.

Why do you need to cool below ambient? If the Cooligy system can cool very hot heat sources to ambient it is doing a fantastic job. You don't need sub-ambient cooling unless the system is not efficient at removing heat from the CPU. Cooligy seems to be efficient.

The radiator did not look that large on TV, either.

[satty]

I mentioned it already yesterday, that I never heard of shipment of G5 Xserves so far. And here is a new article from appleinsider:

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=383

Surprise... the shipping time was reduced by one week from 6-8 weeks to 5-7 weeks. So there's still hope that the Xserve G5 will be delivered before end of this year. Although only for US, not UK customers. On the other hand there is now also a "more memory for less" promotion in UK now.

I don't think that we will see any G5 PB this year though :(

[army_guy]

Why do you need to cool below ambient? If the Cooligy system can cool very hot heat sources to ambient it is doing a fantastic job. You don't need sub-ambient cooling unless the system is not efficient at removing heat from the CPU. Cooligy seems to be efficient.

The radiator did not look that large on TV, either.

I didnt say you needed it, iam saying it cant be done. Cooligy is a good idea but you still have the problem of dissipating the heat, whats the point in absorbing 1000W/sqcm if you cant dissipate it? The point Iam trying to make is that the cooling performance still depends on the radiator. With liquid cooling you can cool multiple heat sources and have it dissipated through a single radiator. With the cooligy your gona need multiple radiators and multiple pumps for each cooligy. The advantage of cooligy is to the standard HSF.

The size of the radiator depends on how much heat you want to dissipate and the temperature you want to maintain of the heatsource.

[neonart]

That 1000w/sqcm is irrelevant, figures what about temperatures using actuall CPUS? How can it cool better than liquid cooling if it cant cool below ambient? It has no flexability as you would need a cooligy for each heat source hence more fans. So you can absorb 1000W, now how big is your radiator gona be to dissipate that so that your CPU doesnt overheat? still the same problem with dissipating the heat, you need a big radiator. OK a liquid cooling water block cant currenly absorb 1000W/sqcm but its been getting higher and higher through the introduction of higher power TECs/chillers 500W++. IMO cooligy will not compete with liquid cooling as it wasnt designed to, it was to replace the HSF.

Ah, dude... I think if IBM, AMD, Intel, and Apple think this new technology is good enough to invest in and consider it for their most demanding systems there may be something good about it. Otherwise they would have just asked some thick-eye-glassed PC dweeb that's into OC'ing Athlon boxes with fancy purple water cooling to help them out.

I'm willing to bet that the above-mentioned companies R&D and engineering teams are more informed than most of us on this forum about CPU cooling. (Except NeatGekko- he knows all.) But that may just be a hunch.

[Rower_CPU]

I didnt say you needed it, iam saying it cant be done. Cooligy is a good idea but you still have the problem of dissipating the heat, whats the point in absorbing 1000W/sqcm if you cant dissipate it? The point Iam trying to make is that the cooling performance still depends on the radiator. With liquid cooling you can cool multiple heat sources and have it dissipated through a single radiator. With the cooligy your gona need multiple radiators and multiple pumps for each cooligy. The advantage of cooligy is to the standard HSF.

The size of the radiator depends on how much heat you want to dissipate and the temperature you want to maintain of the heatsource.

OK, so your beef with cooligy comes down to the fact that it only takes care of one heat source. It seems that it would be trivial for them to add more blocks to the chain, provided their electrokinetic pump can force the water through more than one source - one chain, one radiator.

Radiator size is not the only determinant of heat dissipation. There's design, material, active/passive cooling, etc.

To me, their solution still seems better overall. For hardcore overclockers who need crazy levels of active cooling on their video card, chipset, etc. do what you have to, but it's still in the realm of custom work and not mass consumption.

[AidenShaw]

OK, so your beef with cooligy comes down to the fact that it only takes care of one heat source. It seems that it would be trivial for them to add more blocks to the chain, provided their electrokinetic pump can force the water through more than one source - one chain, one radiator.

Actually, you should be able to use a shared radiator/fan assembly, and each heat source could have its own microchannel head exchanger and pump.

Each pump would push hot water into the stream ahead of the radiator, and use the cool water downstream from the radiator.

The fan speed would be controlled by the temperature of the water leaving the radiator.

[mpopkin]

60 micro is still in design layout and aren't in prototyping so it will be a long while...


Actually, a .65mm is in prototype faze, with samples already being sent out(not to apple, but IBM) it reports in a early article from IBM about its plans for chips, the 970fx will be that last in the 970 series of processors based on the IBM power4 core, and the 980, which is based on the Power5 core, is at .65nm. The IBM Power5 processor is already past prototyping and is actually in preproduction quantities, but obviously not for apple, but for high end IBM servers. we wont see the 980 until late this year, but that is probably what the 3ghz g5/6 will be based on, early reports state the powerpc 980 will be incrementally more powerful than the 970, run cooler and use less power, significantly less in the case of heat production and power as reports say. This makes a faster(2ghz) powerbook likely only under this processor rather than the 970fx, so you can expect to see a powermac update(2nd update) before you can expect to see a major speed increase in a powerbook g5( yes that means there will be a powerbook g5 at a slower speed until a revision coming out is released. I am not saying that these details are 100 percent accurate, but IBM is working on the power5 core and it is in preproduction and the powerpc 980 is based on the power5 rather than the power4 core and will be released as soon as it is possible.

[army_guy]

OK liquid cooling is custom work, it is and requires knowledge to setup etc..
The cooligy is simple as it was suppose to be, its gona replace the HSF as it was suppose to but thats it.