Is most of college a waste of time?

[JesseJames]

What do you think?
You're facing a mountain of student loans. Or your parents spent a boat-load of money.
And for what really?
Break it down for me folks. Did you really get your moneys-worth?

[wordmunger]

For me, college was one of the best times of my life. It not only built the intellectual foundation of my life, but the social one as well. My general college education has served me better than more specialized graduate education later, because I can apply it to anything, rather than just one specific field. Not only that, I met my future wife and lifelong friends. So for me, it was totally worth it.

Of course, your mileage may vary...

[Dippo]

What do you think?
You're facing a mountain of student loans. Or your parents spent a boat-load of money.
And for what really?
Break it down for me folks. Did you really get your moneys-worth?


After 6 years of school (BS and MS) -> job with starting of more than $60K

No college -> Retail job making less than $15K

Total Cost of school (public university) ~ $40K

Now you tell me want makes sense to you.

[PlaceofDis]

im still in college, got one more year left to get my BA, but so far it has been worth all the money issues, man i am not going to like my student loans or my credit cards or my apple loan once im done, but the stuff i have learned has been worth it all, i have seen and interacted with more people than ever before, its an experience, especially at a large university such as mine..... :p

[AssassinOfGates]

First term for me at Westwood (http://www.westwood.edu) and it seems okay to me. The only real problem I have is theres not enough girls at the campus. Other than that, I think college gives you the same thing HS did. A piece of paper allowing you to procede in your life, and a fun time :D

[bryanc]

After 6 years of school (BS and MS) -> job with starting of more than $60K

No college -> Retail job making less than $15K

Total Cost of school (public university) ~ $40K

Now you tell me want makes sense to you.

Just for a different perspective on this:

After 15 years of university (B.Sc., M.Sc., Ph.D.) -> job with starting salary of $26k.

No college -> oil patch job making more than $70k

What make sense to you?

Now, speaking as the guy with the Ph.D working for poverty wages, I love what I do, and would eagerly come back to work Monday morning after winning the lottery. But my point is that university training isn't by any means a guarantee of a high-paying job (nor should it be). What it gives you is choices and the perspective to be more likely to make good ones.

I think our society has some serious priority problems when research scientists can't pay their rent, and hockey players are concerned about mulit-million dollar salary caps, but I'm obviously biased.

Cheers

[jefhatfield]

Just for a different perspective on this:

After 15 years of university (B.Sc., M.Sc., Ph.D.) -> job with starting salary of $26k.

No college -> oil patch job making more than $70k

What make sense to you?

Now, speaking as the guy with the Ph.D working for poverty wages, I love what I do, and would eagerly come back to work Monday morning after winning the lottery. But my point is that university training isn't by any means a guarantee of a high-paying job (nor should it be). What it gives you is choices and the perspective to be more likely to make good ones.

I think our society has some serious priority problems when research scientists can't pay their rent, and hockey players are concerned about mulit-million dollar salary caps, but I'm obviously biased.

Cheers

well said

[bousozoku]

It's not at all a waste of time. Academics, per se, aren't for everyone, but higher education is. I'm going for one new degree and an extension of an older degree. I don't agree with everyone going into university--technology and vocational schools need to be considered for others. Something I've considered dear is that you should find an interest which you like that also pays well as a career.

Obviously, the math and language and humanities classes have to be fulfilled. They may seem useless but classes in math and English are especially important, considering how poorly people do with these subjects. You might find it boring but you'd be amazed at how much information you could learn, if you worked at it.

Besides, without hard work, how do you know that you're having real fun?

[poopyhead]

I spent 2.5 years at my first college, didn't graduate, few of the classes transferred (even though it was a top 20 school), and lost roughly 30,000 dollars even though the first year I had a full academic scholarship. I can honestly say that it was all worth it and I would do it over again in a heartbeat.
Now I go to a local community type university for free (I'm now pseudo poor since my parents disowned me while at school #1, which is the reason I now go to a community college) and I get stafford loans to live off of. I've hated my years at the community college mainly due to a lack of any sort of active community atmosphere, which was prevalent at school #1.

Socially, it all depends on where you go
Financially, it almost always pays off in greater income later unless you get a Ph.D.

[MacFan26]

I think our society has some serious priority problems when research scientists can't pay their rent, and hockey players are concerned about mulit-million dollar salary caps, but I'm obviously biased.
Cheers

I have to agree with you on this. This is only my first year in college, but it's definitely worth it. The only time I think college isn't worthwhile is when I hear about people that are so happy and successful and haven't gone to college, like actors, etc. I always think "well, if they can do it without college, why can't I?" But then I stop complaining and go back to my homework. how sad.

[question fear]

4 yrs of college=retail managemnet job making under 20k
otoh, borders tends to favor management who have at least an undergrad degree if not a masters. and there is more money to be had if i stick with it.
so its interesting; no money, but a job that i couldnt have gotten without my degree. if i didnt have my degree...well i dont know. i wouldnt be me, wouldnt have had the part-time experience and overall knowledge to land this job....tis interesting.
-carly

[sonofslim]

the thing about college is that you're not buying a job -- you're buying an education. what you choose to do with that education is up to you.

i'm up to my medulla oblongata in student loans, i spent the first 3 years out of college mainly unemployed, and i have yet to have a job that has anything to do with my major.

but would i do college over again, the same way? hell yeah. college taught me how to think. i came away with a lot more than "just the facts" as they were taught in class.

an education isn't the means to an end -- if it's worth paying for, it's worth it because of the personal benefits, not because of some leverage it might give you in the job hunt.

crikey, i sound like an admissions officer.

[mactastic]

It's been worth it for me. I spent 4 years in CC, then 5 MORE years at university to get my Bachelors degree, but now I'm doing what I love and getting paid for it. I couldn't do what I'm doing now without my degree, so it was necessary and I'd do it again.

[stoid]

If college were just going to classes and getting a 'better' job, it would be an utter waste.

College is about learning to live and understand yourself in a way that no other experience can teach.

College is a great place to make life-long friends and have stories of 'those crazy college days' to tell for the rest of your life.

College is about double-decker peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at 2 in the morning. It's about trying to drink a galloon of milk in one hour on a bet. It's about pulling 3 all-nighters in 4 days to get through crunch times. It's about dying your hair weird colors because no one can fire you because of it! It's about giving that guy who said "moderation in all things" a boot up the ass. EVERYTHING TO THE EXTREME! You'll never get another chance! College ****ing rocks!

[Grimace]

This is my research specialty - the returns on higher education.

On average, the average person with a B.A./B.S. will make $1 million more in his/her lifetime than someone who did not go to college at all.

Someone who attended "some college" is still far better off financially. There are always exceptions, but this data is from an average of millions of students.

A large part of college learning comes outside the classroom. Discussions with friends on xyz topics, learning about subjects you never wanted to know about, time and money management, peer effects (gaining knowledge and experience from those around you) - these are all intangible benefits of college.

[mactastic]

"There's a time and a place for everything Children, and it's called college."

-Chef

[Grimace]

The big question that looms over many minds is: what if I took this X amount of money and instead of investing it in college - put it in the stock market, or used it to get an apartment and "start" an adult life. I wouldn't be in debt, and I'd be MAKING money. I may not have the same starting salary as a B.A. working next to me - but I'm 4 years ahead of the game!!

AT WHAT POINT (# of years) DOES THE DEBT AND HIGHER STARTING SALARY FROM COLLEGE PAY OFF? How long until it has paid for itself and I am making MORE money??

This varies by job and tuition price, but the average is 7-10 years. The economic benefits go on til you retire - (30-40 years later.)

[poopyhead]

"There's a time and a place for everything Children, and it's called college."

-Chef

damn skippy
college is the one place where stupidity and testing the limits usually doesn't get you in trouble. Its a place where you can break away from societal norms in order to figure out what life really is about and wake up in the morning puking off your loft onto your desk below relishing both what you know you did last night and what you will never remember but only hear about. In college everything is possible and its your job to test every possibility.

[rueyeet]

Break it down for me folks. Did you really get your moneys-worth?

My parents say they did, every time I come home to fix their ailing PC's. :D

Seriously, though, I agree with all the people who've enumerated the non-career reasons for college. I learned so much that didn't happen in class, and so much from the classes not in my major. It was a hugely influential period in my life.

Also, the people who say that a degree doesn't necessarily get you more money are only mostly right. There are some fields where you're not going to get anywhere without at least a bachelor's degree, and some where a degree will net you a higher salary on average. Heck, when my manager found out I had a bachelor's in comp sci, I got a huge raise even though my job isn't strictly IT-related.

Of course, in the long run, does any of that really matter? Depends what you want out of life. My sister took her college fund, bought a car, and started working right away. She went through some "should I eat or pay the electric bill" periods, true, but she's doing every bit as well as I am and just traded to a lower-paying part time position to have more time to spend with her two-year-old son. That's success too, as far as I'm concerned.

So, is college worth the investment, in strictly ROI terms? Depends.
Is it worth it, in terms of life experience? Yes, but not strictly necessary.

[G4scott]

Sitting in a lecture right now, I can't help but ponder whether or not college is a waste of time. This class makes me think so, but other classes are very valuable. I think college has this period in the beginning where they have to make sure you're up to a certain level before you can take the real courses, so that the university doesn't waste resources on you, such as valuable professors and equipment. They want to make sure that you're taking these upper division classes to learn something...

While browsing Mac Rumors in a philosophy lecture makes college seem like a waste of time, if it helps you to get a good paying job, or learn the skills you need, then no, it's not a waste of time. If there is a way for you to get the skills you need for less, then that's be a smarter choice. It's all about opportunity cost...

[takao]

at the moment i just started my 2nd year on university(is that the same as college ? )
working on my first degree (bachelor) in computer science (software development etc.)
and yeah it is worth... stuying itself isn't expensive (700€ a year fees) the flat in which i live is eating money more :rolleyes:

there isn't anything like a campus here: all departments of the university are spread across the whole town medicine/law/history of arts/psychology/archelogy/etc. (the 'old studies') are in the center of the town manegment etc (the 'money ones' )are somewhere on the one side of the town and of course (theoretical)maths/(quantum)(experimental)physic/architecture/computer science (the 'technical ones') are on their own areal near the airport :rolleyes:
if somebody want to know more: www.uibk.ac.at

[King Cobra]

I'm going with mostly --not-- a waste of time.

Excluding the job issue, I've been finding that through the years at college (all right, so I'm only in my second semester) make me feel even stronger about one's willingness to persue a college education. Mainly, what I'm finding out is if you have professors that explain things clearly and expect you to do work that isn't so far beyond your capabilities, then you also learn, mentally, the experience of being able to do things on your own...independence. Isn't time management great? :p Then you feel more confident (maybe even more interested) in being able to apply college knowledge to your own work. At least I feel that way. For instance, before I even saw this thread, I browsed through my Calculus book, trying to figure out how to find surface area of certain 3D figures...and I'm about halfway through the level of Calculus below it.

But that doesn't mean I don't see H.S. as a bad thing, because I like that too. I like H.S. because the classrooms are slower-paced, more thorough, and smaller in classroom size. (Any classroom with more than 20 students makes me feel uneasy...) Then again, with H.S., time management is not as developed as in college, but I don't feel that one should view H.S. negatively as a result. Lately, though, that's almost all I hear from people...negative things about H.S., especially since these "kids" see H.S. as the whole educational system. Of course that's not true! (Anyways, had to vent.)

[Mav451]

Its probably the best time of your life. It sounds cliche, but if you have a good college experience (ask alums out there), the majority will definitely have that nostalgia hit em right in the chest :) Many people have talked bout it, but learning to think is huge. Just b/c I'm an engineer doesn't mean I can't think outside of equations. In fact, I'm not all that good with equations--I might have been in my high school, but in my competitive engineering program, I'm only average in that :( Nonetheless, at college you learn more about yourself. And notably not the academic side, but your personality. Living with roommates, the friends you make, and just how you handle day to day things will really reveal to yourself who you really are. In high school, things are far too controlled, to limited in scope to what college can do. Want to skip a class? Sure in college, but your grade and midterm will undoubtedly suffer. But it is YOUR decision.

And as others have said, you will learn the meaning of all-nighter as well. Being awake at 2am is not abnormal at all (vs. high school, where that rarely happens weekdays). And depending on your school, freshman 15 hahah...all in good fun of course (assuming you lose it later on too :) ).

[raynegus]

My BS & BA degrees in Biology and Philosophy were not much use in the job sector (odd double major I know, but I make no apologies). I went to college to enrich my life yadda yadda yadda (hence the Philosophy degree) but when I got out I wished I had studied something more career oriented. I mean, people with 6 months of specific vocational training were better off than I was! I worked odd jobs for a few years and decided I had to go back to school. I'm finishing up my medical degree now (only two more months to go, woo-hoo!). Of course, now I'm 200 grand in debt... not to mention exhausted.

Would I do it again? I dunno. Sometimes I wish I had kept things simple and not gone to college at all. Or just picked a simple field with a year or two of training and lived a simple happy life like a lot of my friends have. Sure they are not as educated as I am but who cares? I think I will make a good doctor as I am near the top of my class and I have met people who certainly are not good doctors (ethics wise). It is just a very stressful run which does not leave you. Managed care, malpractice insurance, lawsuits, it's a hard life for a doc these days. That's how I feel right now, but after a few years of practice my views might change when I'm not poor anymore. :p

[Opteron]

Just for a different perspective on this:

After 15 years of university (B.Sc., M.Sc., Ph.D.) -> job with starting salary of $26k.

No college -> oil patch job making more than $70k

What make sense to you?

Now, speaking as the guy with the Ph.D working for poverty wages, I love what I do, and would eagerly come back to work Monday morning after winning the lottery. But my point is that university training isn't by any means a guarantee of a high-paying job (nor should it be). What it gives you is choices and the perspective to be more likely to make good ones.

I think our society has some serious priority problems when research scientists can't pay their rent, and hockey players are concerned about mulit-million dollar salary caps, but I'm obviously biased.

Cheers

I'm a second year mining Engineering Student, and Starting wages are around $70k AUD, or more over seas. Uni in Australia is payed for by the government, and you pay your fees back through Australian and New Zealand Tax. However I have no intent on paying Australian or New Zealand Tax, as I plan to work off shore.

There has been much industrial action latley in Australia with the Right Wing government continually cutting Uni funds, and not paying the lectures what they diserve.

[bryanc]

My BS & BA degrees in Biology and Philosophy were not much use in the job sector (odd double major I know, but I make no apologies).

Hey, my undergraduate degree was a major in Genetics and minor in Philosophy, so I think I know exactly where you're coming from.

I suspect you'll look back on your education as a good investment after a few years of practice. My bitterness is partly driven by jealosy...I work with MDs a lot (I do developmental biology research), and, worse, I have to go to funding agencies dominated by MDs for money, so my perception (inaccurate, I know) is that you folks are rolling in money...whereas us poor, starving, basic-research types are completely unappreciated and underfunded.

Good luck with your studies

Cheers

[Awimoway]

The night of high school commencement, after the ceremony, I went home and packed my things and drove to college the next day and started college two days later. That was in 1994. I graduated last August. :rolleyes: In the meantime I:

• Went on a two-year service sabbatical and changed a few lives and grew up a lot
• Met the love of my life and married her
• Fathered two beautiful daughters
• Herniated a disc in my back, had surgery, and missed a semester recovering
• Changed majors three times
• Took light class loads many semesters so I would have some time to see my family
• Worked several menial, low-pay jobs that didn't really pay the bills
• Accumulated $60k of debt
• Wasted countless hours on busy work, stress, long nights finishing papers, studying for tests, and doing the usual school work grind
• Met lifelong friends and had experiences I'll never forget
• Learned tons of wonderful things that will serve me throughout my life. Some practical, some not.

We are saddled with a lot of debt. I have not found work, though I will hopefully find something this coming school year in teaching, which is not my first choice or my second or my third or my... (you get the idea), but it is something I can do well and it will pay the bills.

But I hope to succeed someday as a novelist. And there is no way I could even hope for success at that without the great learning experiences I had at college. I gained skills, knowledge, wisdom, experience. You can't put a price on that.

Overall, it was definitely worth it. But I strenuously recommend doing things a little differently. Changing my major three times killed me. I graduated with enough credits for a fifth year of school. And the final choice wasn't the right one either, but it just got too ridiculous for me to be able to change again. I needed to graduate, so I pressed on with the wrong thing.

Here's my advice: Don't get lured into any of the fun majors that cater to interests of yours unless you can see a clear path to a good paying job that is in reasonably high demand. That pretty much counts out all the arts and humanities majors. Be hard-nosed. Do something dull, if you have to, as long as it pays the bills. Think all the time about the end result, the career you have in mind. Make up your mind now and stay focused on it. Talk to professionals and ask them what a good course of study would be. Ask people who live the kind of lifestyle you want to live. Don't ask people who you know who don't live the kind of lifestyle you want to live. Think in terms of professions. Business. Law. Medicine. Dentistry. Engineering. Communications. Computing. Because the chances that you'll find a job you love are slim. It's a sad but unavoidable truth. So you might as well find a job that at least pays well. I was so obsessed with doing something I liked that I took no thought for what my odds of securing such a job would be. And now I'm not doing anything I want to be doing, except in my spare time, hoping that it will someday pay off (and I don't just mean monetarily--I write for the craft more than I do for the money, but I don't have as much time as I wish I had).

[themadchemist]

Well, aid packages often consist of a significant portion of grant aid. For those with big packages, it's mostly grant aid.

Yes, most of your classes are a waste of time, especially the introductory classes in your major. Courses that you take outside your major allow you to expand your mind intellectually and broadly for perhaps the final time in your life. To be an educated, refined person, college is essential.

When you get to upper level classes, you start to learn at least interesting things. Still, maybe not terribly useful, but at least some of it will rub off and be helpful in grad school (very much less likely will it be useful on the job).

Intellectually, what makes college worth its salt is the plethora of opportunities for independent research, internships, study abroad, etc. Again, ways to expand your mind and think intellectually and creatively. This is the first opportunity you have in your life to be scholarly, if that's something important to you.

Then, you meet great people and have a chance to have a good time...No, not just random frat parties where you get drunk as hell. It's a chance to meet bright, passionate people who care about something--anything--and want to talk about it, debate it, fight for it, whatever. A good group of people who are at least at times excited about something. I doubt I'll see much more of that if I'm not in academia.

It's a good time to be happy and to learn a lot and also to slog a lot and be unhappy and to suffer. But I expect to look back upon it fondly.

[jefhatfield]

This is my research specialty - the returns on higher education.

On average, the average person with a B.A./B.S. will make $1 million more in his/her lifetime than someone who did not go to college at all.

Someone who attended "some college" is still far better off financially. There are always exceptions, but this data is from an average of millions of students.

A large part of college learning comes outside the classroom. Discussions with friends on xyz topics, learning about subjects you never wanted to know about, time and money management, peer effects (gaining knowledge and experience from those around you) - these are all intangible benefits of college.

in my undergrad major, hr/personnel, we also looked very closely at these issues but many within academia wanted to push across a left leaning agenda pushing education and the education lobby...it's business and politics at its worst...i am being critical and i am a democrat!

so college grads make more?? look deeper

it was in my grad school years i learned the mathematics behind the numbers which leads to several different truths...realize that most rich and nearly rich kids get degrees more often than not and they spike the average...they have built in income regardless and many have cushy jobs working for a lucrative family business

let's say these kids, the rich ones, for some reason i can't think of overwhelmingly decided en masse not to go to college but stop at high school...then WHO would have the higher income over their lifespan??

[raynegus]

quote from Awimoway:

"Here's my advice: Don't get lured into any of the fun majors that cater to interests of yours unless you can see a clear path to a good paying job that is in reasonably high demand."

That is the best peice of advice for anyone going into college. You hit the nail on the head. Have fun in college and take interesting electives, but keep those words in mind and you'll be fine.

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/home.htm

You can find out your odds of getting a job and how much money you are likely to make in just about every field out there.

[themadchemist]

quote from Awimoway:

"Here's my advice: Don't get lured into any of the fun majors that cater to interests of yours unless you can see a clear path to a good paying job that is in reasonably high demand."

That is the best piece of advice for anyone going into college. You hit the nail on the head. Have fun in college and take interesting electives, but keep those words in mind and you'll be fine.

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/home.htm

You can find out your odds of getting a job and how much money you are likely to make in just about every field out there.

Well, if you go to a good school, you can major in pretty much whatever you want and still apply to be a consultant, which will net you 40-60k starting out of undergrad...It doesn't really matter what your major is if you want to be a consultant.

Fortunately, I don't.

[raynegus]

Well, if you go to a good school, you can major in pretty much whatever you want and still apply to be a consultant, which will net you 40-60k starting out of undergrad...It doesn't really matter what your major is if you want to be a consultant.

Fortunately, I don't.


I seriously doubt anyone is going to give you a job paying 40-60k with any old undergrad degree. People certainly were not banging down my door to pay me 40-60k, and I've got two of those degrees! I have a few friends with bachelor's that are working jobs right now that required no degree. Can you hook them up with a few of those 40-60k jobs? Get real.

[themadchemist]

5{gus]I seriously doubt anyone is going to give you a job paying 40-60k with any old undergrad degree. People certainly were not banging down my door to pay me 40-60k, and I've got two of those degrees! I have a few friends with bachelor's that are working jobs right now that required no degree. Can you hook them up with a few of those 40-60k jobs? Get real.[/QUOTE]

Get real? I've got enough a few friends starting at 65. Crappy GPAs, too. A few years ago, these same kids would be starting at over 100. you go to a top-tier school that manufactures consultants and you watch them crank these kids out. Some of them get the jobs because their GPAs are ridiculously high; others because they are highly involved in activities.

Sure, not everyone snags the job at McKenzie, but enough do. Seriously, I am getting real and watching these people get real jobs.

No, I can't hook anyone up with anything. But my university's career services has certainly done something about hooking a significant number of people up with good jobs out of undergrad. Certainly not everyone; you've got your kids who come out of here and have some trouble finding a good job. But give me a break, if you go to a top tier school that gets active recruitment from major firms, then your chances of getting a good job go up. That's what these kids that I see have as an advantage; recruiters now they can find talent here. These companies have websites and staff catered specifically for this university. We're a feeder school.

[mactastic]

Yeah there were a lot of classes in college that were a waste of my time, but there were also a lot of them that provided valuable knowledge for my career. There were also classes that were just plain fun, they made your brain swell. Then there were the classes about the finer distinctions between greywater and blackwater just before lunch.... I spent a lot of time in college, but I also learned how to draw, how to weld, gained a love of woodworking that is costing me a small fortune now, was challenged by intellectual superiors, I fine tuned my writing style, I learned how to remain coherent after 3 nights with a total of 5 hours of sleep and that was just the academic stuff. I didn't get as much social development in college because I was a lot older and didn't ever live in the dorms. I was pretty much socially developed by the time I got my ass in gear and actually went to college. However, I did get to watch my classmates mature since they were 17/18 when we first met, then by graduation time were 22/23. It definetly is a good place for social interaction. I really enjoyed being around so many other people who were passionate about the same thing I am.

College is only a waste of your time if you are the one wasting it. It's the one place where are are actively trying to get less for you money. Sure there are classes that don't require you to be there all the time, and others that are so worthless you are better off working on something for another class, but if you are only in school because you can't think of a way to tell your parents you don't want to be there, or because they'll cut off the money if you drop out that's when you are wasting your time.

Ahh college. Good times. Glad it's over now though!

[raynegus]

ok madchem, whatever you say bud. I guess we didn't get the jane fonda workup at my lowly state university so those options were not available to me. Tell me, how does your advice apply to 99% of the college crowd out there? "Just go into any field and don't worry about it because you can be a consultant when you get out and make 5 grand a month..."

Sorry, but that advice just does not work for the average joe my friend. I'd love to chat more but I have to go study now and earn my pork & beans. When I'm a doctor, maybe I'll send my son to your neck of the woods to graze among the blessed.

[themadchemist]

ok madchem, whatever you say bud. I guess we didn't get the jane fonda workup at my lowly state university so those options were not available to me. Tell me, how does your advice apply to 99% of the college crowd out there? "Just go into any field and don't worry about it because you can be a consultant when you get out and make 5 grand a month..."

Sorry, but that advice just does not work for the average joe my friend. I'd love to chat more but I have to go study now and earn my pork & beans. When I'm a doctor, maybe I'll send my son to your neck of the woods to graze among the blessed.

You're right that it doesn't apply at most places. It's just one of those lucky things for those people who want to be consultancy drones--not exactly what I think would be the most fulfilling thing in life.

And your comment about "the jane fonda workup at my lowly state university" suggests that my second post was a bit too arrogant. If so, I apologize. I wasn't trying to suggest that your university was any less worthy of these fancy-schmancy firms catering to you than mine is. I was making an observation that they do seem to be knocking all the time. However, I'm not going to retract the fact that the more "prestigious" the university you attend, the easier it is to get one of those (vapid) jobs straight out of college.

Don't send your kids off with such starry-eyed idealism as "I want to grow up to be a consultant and fire people!" Especially not when you're in a profession so honorable. And hey, I want to be a doc, too. So there's no grazing for me in these fields o' plenty.

My initial remark, after all, was an off-the-cuff poke at that wonderful calling of consultancy, that seems not to really require any specific knowledge of anything to join up. That was my point. Really, nothing more.

Now, I have to go study for MY exams, as well. No pork and beans here, because I'm vegetarian. But your meal sounds delectable compared to schlop they feed us.

[JamesDPS]

I think, overall, people are being far too critical of majors that don't lead directly to a career. I know SLEWS of people how majored in business or finance because they figured that's what would make them the most money. Most of them are now sitting in cubicals for 12 hours a day making around 40 (a teacher's salary). Sure, a lot of them will be promoted and will make a decent salary, low 6 figures maybe, and a VERY few of them will break through the "middle management" ceiling and go on to the executive level where they may or may not make megabucks. But countless middle-aged guys have told me they hated every minute of it.

Basically, just remember that whatever you study doesn't define the rest of your future. i don't have the experience of our friend in the desert (awimoway), being that he graduated high school four years before me. but as far as I can see it, if you find something you enjoy and pursue it with all your new-found motivation, graduate in 4 years, you're only 21 when when you're entering the job market. So employers don't want to hire an astrophysics major? big deal, go get an MBA if you get desperate, but remember you have time, you're still young.

But what I'm trying to say is, do what you really enjoy, and the only way to find out what you really enjoy is to go to college, and try everything you possibly can. Then, you'll either end up in a job you LOVE where you don't make a ton of money (which I might remind everyone is important, but not worth being miserable for), or your passion and talent for what you do will lead to money down the road.

A couple examples:

1: My dad was a CLASSICS major at UC berkeley, then went to UCSF for his MD, worked for the navy for a while, then NASA briefly, was a professional tennis player some time in the mean time (one of his passions), and is now living happily in newport beach having had an incredibly fulfilling and enriching (in ALL ways) career. Mom was also an anesthesiologist, then took some time off to get a master's in linguistics for fun, is now doing volunteer work running a couple hospices, and is very happily retired in Lafayette (northern California).

2: Oldest brother, also UC Berkeley undergrad as a PSYCHOLOGY major. Then to USC for MBA, currently working in kentucky at a job he "sort of" enjoys (and supports a wife and 2 kids) but looking for executive-level work in california. Doesn't sound too thrilled about his career so far, despite going down the "guaranteed money" route -- but probably just needs to find the right sector - he's smart, so he'll be fine financially, but it remains to be seen how happy he'll be.

3: Another older brother, took 5 years to get an ENGLISH major from UC Davis, not exactly a top-tier school, and not a typical career-leading major. But whoever tells you that an english major is going nowhere is full of crap. Always the computer nerd, he pursued that field and is now a unix systems engineer for Industrial Light and Magic (you may have heard of them), a dream job considering that he's paid well to oversee their massive rendering servers which he delights in telling me nothing about because of his incredible non-disclosure agreements. Of course, I can happily brag that I've been to Lucas Ranch for lunch, and I've seen ILM hardware that very few people get an opportunity to see.

4: A roommate from my undergrad, business finance degree. Guaranteed career, right? Spent months, applied for about 150 jobs, heard back from a bunch, of course, worked somewhere random for a couple years, now works in the right sector but works 12-hour days and still only making high 30k -- barely enough to start looking for a place to buy. Plans to start his own business, and will probably find success and happiness there, but where that's concerned, he learned a lot more from job experience than school.

5: A guy in his 50's sat next to me on a plane back to Boston, and asked what my major was. When I told him "music", he seemed surprised (of course), and delighted. He then spent the next 30 minutes telling me that he and all his friends studied business in order to make money. He has done quite well financially in business for nearly 30 years, and has HATED every minute of it. He absolutely encouraged me, as I'm doing now to you, to pursue what you LOVE, and the money will come, or if it doesn't, you'll be doing something you love so much that you don't care.

6: Girlfriend was a double major POLITICAL SCIENCE and CLASSICS. Everyone told her to go to law school (which she could), but it doesn't appeal to her. Instead, she is now getting her teaching credentials and plans to teach elementary school. She then plans to get an MA in school administration and eventually become a school principle or something along those lines. Or possibly go into politics, like her mom (whom I can't name for obvious reasons). She'll probably start out making about $42k -- more than my business friends, but obviously with less in the way of future income (with promotions), so she'll provide the minimum basis and hopefully my career will grow into the "megabucks" eventually :), since there is no limit at all to what I could possibly make as a film/TV composer. The numbers are staggering for the successful ones, and it's just SO MUCH FUN!

Okay, as for myself, I'm graduating this year with an MA in composition with an emphasis in film scoring. Will I make it? Remains to be seen -- there's a good chance I won't, I'm pretty realistic (or maybe cynical, a cynic being "an optimist who has had his rose-tinted glasses removed, snapped in two, and stomped into the ground, immediately improving his vision" ;). But I have had an amazing time in school, I have met the woman I will probably marry (who will be a teacher, another drastically underpaid profession, but enough for us to get a condo or something, anyway), I have amazing friends and I'm still only 23 -- the future is open to endless possibilities. Plus, I always have that fall-back career as a music teacher in some college somewhere - sure it might be chicken-feed at first, but my current professors all make 6 figures - not riches but they're comfortable - and live VERY fulfilling and happy lives, without exception. Not to mention that I'm confident I could pursue law or business (probably still within the Industry) futher down the road if things don't work out on the current track.

Again, do what you love. You might find out that what you love is business finance, or something like that, of course, and if you do, that's great! Follow it as far as you can. But if you hate it, don't stay in it just so you can make a little extra money when you graduate, because that won't make up for living the "average" life, and let's face it, "average" is pretty depressing. College is the time for you to try everything, and don't stress about your major defining the rest of your life. Of course, it helps if you don't take more than 5 years trying everything, too, so keep a good balance between academics and socializing!

[Grimace]

let's say these kids, the rich ones, for some reason i can't think of overwhelmingly decided en masse not to go to college but stop at high school...then WHO would have the higher income over their lifespan??

These kids make up a very small percentage of the overall higher education population. Yes, some kids just go to college to assume their position in the rich family business, but that group is statistically insignificant.

Income and level of education are definitely linked (I didn't want to write for days on the sociological reasons) - let's just say it's a cycle. I am speaking of kids who ONLY get a BA - who don't go further. Most stereotypcial rich kids, go on past undergraduate and thus are not included in the data.

Keep in mind that ~55% of all students in higher education are in 2 year or community colleges. Many big research schools get publicity through NCAA sports; the Ivy league likewise with its history. Large research universities (Umich, Indiana, Stanford, Tufts) make up about 11% of the overall higher education system. The average age of ALL undergrads is 25 - not the 18-22 year old stereotype that most people think of.

[jefhatfield]

carleton, i am not only talking about the very rich, who is small (like we all know), but not statistically insignificant beyond let's say two standard deviations...but also there is, at least still in W's america which he is dismantling very quickly, a sizeable middle class which contains a decent upper middle class

america is still primarily driven by small entrepreneurs and as owners get older, they need the next generation of family members to run it...the often college educated children

college costs are getting so high only the rich and the upper ranks of the middle class are only able to afford it these days...as this trend continues, the income gap will widen

but it won't be due to educational attainment per se, but more to the head start that rich and upper middle class kids have from the start, their connections, and their greater exposure to smart investments

according to "the millionaire next door", two thirds of american millionaires are born that way...let's face it, education does not play into that very much

as much as i want to further education for the masses, let's give educational funding a fighting chance by using real facts and figures, not some nitpicky fished out facts which paint a picture for a rich powerful washington lobby

when i argue against my conservative friends, they laugh at the education argument, while they laugh all the way to the bank, because they know birthright and social status (and head start) is what makes the overall high income in life, not some piece of paper on the wall the liberal education lobby is wooing us to vote for

btw...i am a democrat and have two such pieces of paper so i am not anti education, just anti-myth

[yuc7zhd2]

Speaking as an Economics major who is graduating this fall, don't get lured into college just because it is what you do after high school. The average real lifetime difference in wages between an individual with a high school education and a bachelor's degree is usually minimal. Go to college because you want to better yourself, not to make big money. Those who have master's and doctorates ON AVERAGE make a worthwhile amount more than high school diploma and bachelor's holders. It is important to remember all of the time that you give up in which you could have earned wages and advanced your experience in the job force (opportunity cost of college). College is not for everyone, but a more educated society certainly would be nice.

[ajkst1]

You never know where college can lead you. And that's the real worth of college. Half the stuff you do in college is out or pure stupidity and "what if" reasons. I played Capture the Flag outside my dorm at 2 AM. Why? Just because. I've advanced my career so far because of people I've met while at college. Will up be "up to my eyeballs in debt?" Yes. Will I regret it? No. I'm a second semester sophomore and it's been worth every loaned penny.

[jefhatfield]

Speaking as an Economics major who is graduating this fall, don't get lured into college just because it is what you do after high school. The average real lifetime difference in wages between an individual with a high school education and a bachelor's degree is usually minimal. Go to college because you want to better yourself, not to make big money. Those who have master's and doctorates ON AVERAGE make a worthwhile amount more than high school diploma and bachelor's holders. It is important to remember all of the time that you give up in which you could have earned wages and advanced your experience in the job force (opportunity cost of college). College is not for everyone, but a more educated society certainly would be nice.

you're right about the minimal difference between high school and bachelor's, but also the master's and phd don't make a big difference unless it's the obvious dentist or md credential which will help the income over a life, even with the huge student loans that come with it

but remember the marine biologist or the art history phd also and the picture comes into brighter focus since not all doctors wear a white coat ;)

[Dros]

I seriously doubt anyone is going to give you a job paying 40-60k with any old undergrad degree. People certainly were not banging down my door to pay me 40-60k, and I've got two of those degrees! I have a few friends with bachelor's that are working jobs right now that required no degree. Can you hook them up with a few of those 40-60k jobs? Get real.

Why are you going off on themadchemist when the first words of his post are "Well, if you go to a good school, you can major in pretty much whatever you want and still apply to be a consultant"? You act like he was trying to say that anyone anywhere has a good shot at being a consultant. He wasn't.

He does make a point for anyone in any school, though. Companies that hire consultants like people that are articulate and analytical. You can demonstrate those skills translating Latin just as well as being an economics major. They'll hire you and pump you full of ANOVA statistics for a month before sending you out. The same is true for other professional schools. I have a friend that was a Philosophy major and is now MD/PhD at Harvard. I have another friend that was an English major and is now in law school. Multiple other examples like this previous posts. I guess you could still be saying, "but how does this help the average joe at Lowe Tech?". Maybe it doesn't. At a top school? No problems. Be really smart at Lowe Tech? No problems. Be average at Lowe Tech? Maybe you better not follow your heart, because Harvard Med isn't taking English majors with a B average, and Lowe Tech Med probably isn't either.

[Opteron]

I seriously doubt anyone is going to give you a job paying 40-60k with any old undergrad degree. People certainly were not banging down my door to pay me 40-60k, and I've got two of those degrees! I have a few friends with bachelor's that are working jobs right now that required no degree. Can you hook them up with a few of those 40-60k jobs? Get real.

With a total of 6 mining engineering student in my year at uni (Total number accross all four years is 25,) and mines struggling to find enough engineers to fil the places avaliable, job prospects are looking good. And as we all know Mining pays BIG DOLLARS.

Also Radio Frequency Engineering pays really well.

To the man in the Jungle (Awimaway:confused: sorry for spelling)
Don't take this too seriously, but maybe a little more job hunting and a little less posting:p .

As others have commented, all Arts, Philosphy, and Science Majors, have a good long think about your future 5-10 years down the track. Where do you plan to be, how do you intend to get there. But most improtantly are these goals realistic.

I can leave Uni right now, with no skills and work on a mine and expecet to be payed ~$60,000AUD. There are numours educated people earning much less, but than again conditions are harsh, and it's not for everybody.

I hope those looking for work find it, because being poor sucks.

[Krizoitz]

College has been at times the best and worst time of my life. Thankfully the best parts are better than the worst. :-)

[Oirectine]

Everybody talking about good times in college. This is my 4th semester and I have exactly 0 friends at my school, and only 1 friend in the entire city (and I only see him once every week or two). I don't have any fond memories of this place outside some great courses I took. Damn I suck!

Here's my advice: Don't get lured into any of the fun majors that cater to interests of yours unless you can see a clear path to a good paying job that is in reasonably high demand. That pretty much counts out all the arts and humanities majors. Be hard-nosed. Do something dull, if you have to, as long as it pays the bills... Because the chances that you'll find a job you love are slim. It's a sad but unavoidable truth. So you might as well find a job that at least pays well.

I hope I never get that cynical! (I'm a music major.)

[JesseJames]

Wow, quite a response. Great responses. Exactly what I'd thought might be said.
One of my friends only took one math course in college, did very well in that class and never went back. He is kind of cheap and didn't want to go into that kind of debt. He is now an assistant manager of a CompUSA. He started as seasonal help there and worked his way up. The old-fashioned way. He's doing quite well too. Does he like it? He's told me he gets sick of it sometimes but overall it's good.
Another friend did a little college. Never went back. He's somewhat reserved and group discussions kind of terrify him. Right now he's a service adviser at a car dealership and pulls in 40k a year. Does well for himself. Is he happy? Not sure. But he's got a family now and has his life ahead of him with them. Leads a full life.
I have a 2 year degree and well, I'm still floating. I graduated into the worst of the recession around here. Oh well. But I'm optimistic. I feel I got a decent education there. I can have an intelligent discussion about most things and I feel I could hold my own talking to anyone who may have more years under their belt from a bigger school. Then again, I'm a geek. ;)
It's all good. It laid a foundation for me. But I won't go back. I feel I'm smart enough to figure things out on my own and if an employer can't see that then oh well.
I've had enough of regular school. The boredom at times was almost too much to bear.
There is one itch to scratch though. It's been there for as long as I could remember. I think it would look great on a resume. And uncommon at that.
I'm just hoping that the economy gets better that's all. That's when opportunity abounds everywhere. Right now, it's just tough.

[Grimace]

college costs are getting so high only the rich and the upper ranks of the middle class are only able to afford it these days...as this trend continues, the income gap will widen


In some sense, this is true, but not if you know how to play the financial aid "game". (This is the only place where class comes in- richer kids know how to play better.) Federal aid, scholarships, etc. are a lot easier to acquire when you have top notch guidance counselors and parents who have gone to college before.

College tuition subsidy has risen in DIRECT proportion to cost. In that sense, tuition has barely risen in the last 5 years. Aid packages increase at the same rate - Why?? Because colleges can maximize their profit from RICH kids who can pay full ticket price. This has been the strategy for the past 15 years.

Declining state subsidies also make state school costs rise heavily. The states simply aren't putting as much money into higher ed each year. [Congress wants to hold hearings on why college costs are skyrocketing?? Look in the mirror! :D ]

You hear about $35,000 per year schools and want to pass out - but these comprise the top half of 1% of schools out there. The average cost per year is still around $3,000. Pell Grants, and Fed Loans make access possible. Schools actually have an INCENTIVE to raise tuition - they maximize profits from rich kids and move higher in the rankings (there IS actually a category in US News & World Report for how much $ a school spends - per student, per faculty, and on facilities) Crazy.

Like it or not, based on your own knowledge or that of others - data from millions of students tracked over decades still points to the fact that on average (mean, not median) - someone with a B.A./B.S. will make $1 million more over the course of his/her lifetime (over someone with no college at all.) You may do NOTHING with what you learned in college (I am not using my major in the slightest) - but your earnings will be greater - again, on average.

[Grimace]

2001 Earnings:

__________________________Median_______Mean
Less than grade 9___________$19,685_____$23,075
9-12 (no degree)____________ 22,350_______28,209
HS Degree (including GED)____29,187_______34,221
Some College_______________34,340_______40,751
Associate's Degree__________36,399_______41,757
Bachelor's Degree___________46,969_______60,660
Master's Degree____________56,589_______74,294
Professional Degree_________87,421_______113,908
Doctoral Degree____________75,182_______94,963

[Grimace]

I've posted a VERY helpful PDF file here:

http://www.highered.edpolicy.com/worthit.pdf

It lays out a lot of reasons and the rationale over why and how people choose to go to college. The cost / benefit analysis is really helpful. :D

[jefhatfield]

carleton,

one thing about statistics is that it goes way beyond just median and mean...there is also correlation and how human behavior and social status plays into it

one of my projects over the years has been to educate my fellow democrats about issues the party believes in but strategize on facts and truth vs. just facts which can be used to be spun any way...when the spin goes too far, then it gets ridiculous and the gop has a new target and ways to win an election

i do understand the democrats' need for better and more education, even to the point of a free college degree, but look at what bad spin can do when playing with the facts

does the fact that african americans who excel in sports do so because they also have a disproportionate amount of handguns??...go ahead and get facts from studies and one can make the correlation that guns=better athletic ability

i sit on the board of an AIDS organization and it's great to know that a lot of facts have been properly sorted out and we have saved a lot of lives...in the early days of AIDS, before it was known to be related to a virus, there were some bizzare facts gathered from the sample of people who were inflicted

originally, most cases were gay, white men so some doctors concluded this was either a white man's disease or a gay disease

some believed that is was not a virus born disease but an overemphasis on some uncommon human behavior, such as an ingestion orally of sperm...sperm has been designed by nature to enter the vagina, etc etc etc, and the end result would be a baby...some researchers thought that sperm entering the digestive system was interrupting the immune system...these conclusions were drawn from median averages alone

so you can see how preposterous reading just the averages can be

so in the end, i believe education is worth it, but i am educated enough, in math, social sciences and business on the grad and undergrad level, to know that one reason for college is not for "more money" or "job training"

[Grimace]

so you can see how preposterous reading just the averages can be

so in the end, i believe education is worth it, but i am educated enough, in math, social sciences and business on the grad and undergrad level, to know that one reason for college is not for "more money" or "job training"

I'm not saying it's for more money only. Just that on average - that is a result. Look at the PDF on "Non-monetary Benefits" That is huge.

Absolutely - look at the PDF on causation vs. correlation. Would a super-smart person have a successful business without going to college?? Do super-smart people go to college - often. How do you separate what that person would have done, from the education received at college?? Where does the "credit" go?

I am all to aware of how stats can be misleading. It is harder to pick apart this data. Some consider a B.A. the "new" HS diploma. Times have changed, for a lot of jobs, a B.A. is required - reqardless of the field. This is not a sweeping judgement - but it has become the norm.

College is supposed to teach students how to think, be it ananlytically - or just "real hard." :D That gives them a transferable skill to any task in the job market.

[ToddW]

I thought college was worthwhile. I spent 6 years getting a BS in Mathmatics and a BS in Electrical Engineering, I am almost finished with my MSEE that I am doing through correspondance, I have a great job and am fixing to close on my first house. My wife and i work very hard and make really good money for people in their mid 20s.

[yuc7zhd2]

Also keep in mind that those PDF statistics that he put on the post (I'm not going to bother downloading the PDF) were probably mean and median for all age groups. Don't COUNT on getting those wages as an individual in an age group from 18 to 35 or maybe even 40. The real wage that individuals earns tends to increase until the individuals 50's and sometimes early 60's, and then it drops off.

[Grimace]

Also keep in mind that those PDF statistics that he put on the post (I'm not going to bother downloading the PDF) were probably mean and median for all age groups. Don't COUNT on getting those wages as an individual in an age group from 18 to 35 or maybe even 40. The real wage that individuals earns tends to increase until the individuals 50's and sometimes early 60's, and then it drops off.

exactly. That is the average 2001 salary for EVERYONE with say, a bachelor's degree, whether you are 22 or 62. the PDF (you can just click on it) has a lot more info (not stats) on other aspects of determining the value of a college degree.

[bont]

I went to Art College, so career-wise it was a waste of time but rewarding in other ways. I went back in the days when you could still get student grants and I have no intention of paying back my student loan, so I have not lost out financially. I feel sorry for todays students though.

[Santiago]

This whole "paying for education" thing is just so alien to me. I had full scholarship for undergrad, and now that I'm in grad school, I have a full scholarship plus a $22,000 / year stipend. Actually handing over money for this just seems wrong...

[dethl]

I'm just a 2nd semester freshmen right now, and so far, college has been worth it. Except for the fact that most of my classes right now are out to sort the wheat from the chaff, and the 6 to 1 male to female ratio, college has been rather enjoyable. I've made many friends in the little time I've been here, and I've matured much more from my high school days. I would not give this up.

That said, I have 4 years to go after this semester. Computer science degrees now take up to 5 or even 6 years to complete.

[jazzmfk]

Is most of college a waste of time? Well, it depends on what you're doing most of the time.

I'm a music teacher. Every second I spent in the practice rooms back in college continues to help me every minute of every day. Did I enjoy spending all that time woodshedding scales and lip slurs? Not really. Was it a waste of time? Absolutely not.

Now, the education classes, otoh, gave me little practical knowledge or useful information. I suppose the history of schooling in the US is important to somebody, but it sure doesn't help to get my freshman band motivated to practice......

So, like others have said - find what you love and do that. It takes a long time, but eventually you can make a decent salary in the classroom. The past 23 years have gone by way faster than they should have, because every day is still enjoyable, fun, thrilling, exasperating, frustrating, and ultimately rewarding. I've gotten to do some amazing things - things I never would have imagined ever doing - because of the work I put in while at school.

Gotta go - we're in a jazz ensemble competition tonight! See ya!

MFK

[takao]

This whole "paying for education" thing is just so alien to me.
same here i pay 700 euro on fees for university a year and i consider that as much... 20.000 a year for studying ? the students here would be throwing stones and molotov cocktails,and would tear apart the parliament

[Grimace]

same here i pay 700 euro on fees for university a year and i consider that as much... 20.000 a year for studying ? the students here would be throwing stones and molotov cocktails,and would tear apart the parliament

what is included as part of the undergraduate experience is vastly different in countries outside of the US. Here, universities compete for students by offering bells and whistles to their campuses - big athletic facilities, modern dorms, delectable dining. All of this goes into overall cost.

The U.K. is gradually making the switch between the old system of "pay for K-12 education and the crown pays for higher ed" to "pay less for K-12 education and pay a lot for higher ed".

After many hundreds of years of operating at-budget, Cambridge and Oxford have very little to show in terms of financial resources (plenty of human capital, but a minimal endowment).

Europe will follow. The incredible amount of subsidy that students there currently get toward their higher education will begin to dwindle in the next 10 years.

[jefhatfield]

exactly. That is the average 2001 salary for EVERYONE with say, a bachelor's degree, whether you are 22 or 62. the PDF (you can just click on it) has a lot more info (not stats) on other aspects of determining the value of a college degree.

i am sure the methodology with the facts used was just fine

it just does not represent a sample in the real world if they are determining that college makes better pay...on average...in any considerable way for most of us...i wonder if the authors had a political agenda with a leftist leaning...or funding from the education lobby

i used to go with the left's fund college for better pay for the people "argument" and really believed in it until i learned the art of persusive statistics...but it's not that persuasive, since even some of the dullest conservatives can see through that argument

another thing that i have not liked is the left's insistence on throwing money at welfare to make it disappear because that extra few dollars will make the person climb out of poverty...the reality is more likely the person will become more dependent and the left/dems will not see that fact because it goes against its agenda

the education lobby will continue on with its more education = more money/salary/wages, so give us (the field of education) more funds "argument"...it does not do better than the right wing's argument that arming citizens on the street with concealable handguns will stave off crime

i just cannot understand the political extremes and their lying with statistics

there are liars, there are damned liars, and then there are statistics ;)

[poopyhead]

How scary,
to boil down the need for higher education to a political argument between republicans and democrats seems ridiculous. I think most people agree in both the republican and democratic parties as well as in the political left and right, that some sort of higher education is a positive and represents not only a personal good but also a social and civic good.

[yuc7zhd2]

Dear jefhatfield,
you are one ****ed up crazy bastard. I'll leave it at that.

i am sure the methodology with the facts used was just fine

it just does not represent a sample in the real world if they are determining that college makes better pay...on average...in any considerable way for most of us...i wonder if the authors had a political agenda with a leftist leaning...or funding from the education lobby

i used to go with the left's fund college for better pay for the people "argument" and really believed in it until i learned the art of persusive statistics...but it's not that persuasive, since even some of the dullest conservatives can see through that argument

another thing that i have not liked is the left's insistence on throwing money at welfare to make it disappear because that extra few dollars will make the person climb out of poverty...the reality is more likely the person will become more dependent and the left/dems will not see that fact because it goes against its agenda

the education lobby will continue on with its more education = more money/salary/wages, so give us (the field of education) more funds "argument"...it does not do better than the right wing's argument that arming citizens on the street with concealable handguns will stave off crime

i just cannot understand the political extremes and their lying with statistics

there are liars, there are damned liars, and then there are statistics ;)

[Dros]

it was in my grad school years i learned the mathematics behind the numbers which leads to several different truths...realize that most rich and nearly rich kids get degrees more often than not and they spike the average...they have built in income regardless and many have cushy jobs working for a lucrative family business

let's say these kids, the rich ones, for some reason i can't think of overwhelmingly decided en masse not to go to college but stop at high school...then WHO would have the higher income over their lifespan??

jefhatfield, can you tell us or are you just speculating? I would guess that if you took the children of families in the top 5% income and stopped their education at high school, you would still see higher median income in college grads, even if the high schoolers are spiked with scions of wealth. The number of children that enter a family business with no education and yet become wealthy must be vanishingly small -- how can this group matter at all for any study? You sound slightly bitter towards these folks.

You keep railing against stats and leftist conspiracies, but I haven't heard an actual counter-example, just that stats are misleading and used for political purposes. I'm sure studies are used in that way, but I'm hesitant to throw them all out. I'm curious to hear more about why you feel the way you do about education and income.

[Opteron]

2001 Earnings:

__________________________Median_______Mean
Less than grade 9___________$19,685_____$23,075
9-12 (no degree)____________ 22,350_______28,209
HS Degree (including GED)____29,187_______34,221
Some College_______________34,340_______40,751
Associate's Degree__________36,399_______41,757
Bachelor's Degree___________46,969_______60,660
Master's Degree____________56,589_______74,294
Professional Degree_________87,421_______113,908
Doctoral Degree____________75,182_______94,963

I like those odds
Professional Degree_________87,421_______113,908
That's where i'm going to fit in.

[themadchemist]

I think part of the problem with college education is all this talk of money. Of course, I have little right to comment on this, because I'm virtually guaranteed to enter a profession with high financial benefits (medicine), and to do so by way of what is deemed a "prestigious" university. Therefore, I have less of a NEED to worry about my financial future and college becomes less about cost and future benefit (although present financial aid does help quite a bit!). Nevertheless, I will interject my opinion.

It is interesting to observe what seems to be the profile of a large number of students (perhaps the mode of students) at my university. They seem to be upwardly-mobile kids from families that have either been financially underprivileged or, more likely, have only recently seen the benefits of financial privilege. They seem highly concerned with securing a position of prestige and wealth in our society. They seem career-oriented, as opposed to learning-oriented. These are the kids gunning for the jobs, not searching for knowledge.

Moreover, I would argue that there is a great deal of social pressure, in addition to pragmatic pressure, on the students at this university. Many of them feel parental pressure to excel in the sense of financial benefits. This however, probably occurs in no greater frequency at my university than at a comparable universities.

I don't know how true it is, though, at other universities of our prestige, that such a high percentage of students are in pre-professional tracks. In fact, from anecdotal evidence, I would argue that this university is composed of a greater percentage of pre-professional students than others that US News & World Report would place in its "rank vicinity." At the very least, a qualitative culture of pre-professionality seems to be integrated into our educational scene in a way that it is not at other top-tier universities.

This is unfortunate. I think that college is a great time to learn and explore and research and find new things...However, by imposing upon oneself a significant pressure to achieve in a very monetary sense, one feels stress that precludes scholarly achievement. I don't think that students who feel the bite of the pre-professional bug are as likely to be interested in the "how's" and "why's" of the material they study as they are in the "what's." Geared toward scores and examinations as the end, these students less often pursue deep understanding of material.

Of course, this is not to say that students who are interested in scholarly activity are not interested in grades. That would be ridiculous. But I argue that these students are simultaneously interested in truly understanding material and in exploring the material in an in-depth fashion.

I think the dominant discourse of our current argument demonstrates that the financial costs and benefits of a college education often obscure the more intangible (often more important) intellectual benefits. Many times, this is because the financial analysis seems more important and because it is more important.

However, approaching the collegiate experience with such an attitude promotes a limited and significantly less enriching immersion in that system of education.

Another interesting and rather unrelated point will send me back to the pragmatic, non-scholarly benefits of university education, particularly prestigious university education. The practical benefits of meeting particular people are incredible.

Becoming acquainted with a professor who is a leader in his field can yield letters of recommendation that shine and connections within a field that cannot be topped. These can yield to better jobs--regardless of one's inherent abilities or demonstrated performance.

It is not just the faculty, though, that is important to know. One's peers, especially at our nation's most noteworthy institutions, are blank checks waiting to be cashed. And the balance in their accounts of power, prestige, connections, and wealth itself are often guaranteed to grow extraordinarily over time. On America's top-tier campuses, one will find the individuals who will shape and, more significantly, run, our nation. By establishing ties with these budding leaders early on, a person is more likely to secure a high-paying job, a prestigious appointment, or anything else in the future. Therefore, there is a great degree of stratification in the university system with respect to the distribution of influence. Although my cohorts and I will brag unendingly about the woes of our rigorous grading scales, we benefit from power-relationships that those at what are considered "lesser" institutions are far less likely to establish. These relationships are almost unthinkable for those without a college education. Of course, if one is lucky enough to be at an Ivy League institution, where maximum power-relationship exposure is coupled with rampant grade inflation, his/her chance at financial success is best. To a great degree, these personal relationships cause the starting salary spike of the Ivies, not any particular brilliance of the students (especially as compared with institutions that lie in rank just below the Ivy League) nor any particular excellence of training.

Like most things in life, especially those to do with education, the collegiate experience is a game. I would suggest that you approach this game intelligently and play your cards well, but that you also enjoy it for its less tangible benefits. In the end, despite its obvious correlation to increased success, perhaps its most valuable relate to an experience that often amounts to a person's first, and perhaps last, opportunity for intellectual exploration.

[Grimace]

Jefhatfield,

I'm curious why you want to hack apart the numbers so much. This isn't a study conducted by Dems or Repubs for political gain, it is a continuing research study done by the dept. of Ed (who's Dem/Rep allegiance changes frequently) and research universities.

You act like it's some kind of conspiracy. No, interpreting the data I posting in an incorrect manner is easy to do. The numbers are actually modest for what some people might earn, and a stretch for others. We're talking about millions of data samples.

Like it or not, higher education demands, or just gets, a higher salary. If you've "bought" a degree, or if you actually have the skills - that is irrelevant to the figures. WHY a degree commands more $$$ - you can debate forever. Don't slam the figures based on an ideological sidetrack.

For me, the non-monetary benefits most certainly outweigh the future higher earnings.

[Blackstealth]

I graduate after 4 years at university this July. For me the only real reason to go was to increase my job chances, ultimately boiling down to how much of a starting salary I could expect.

As it is I've spent 3yrs studying mindlessly boring subjects towards a BSc in Business Management - however I have ended up with a well paid job as a result of doing an industrial placement for a year.

Once I graduate I'll be on a starting salary of £18k/$32k compared to the £8-11k ($14-19) I'd be looking at as a result of leaving high school and going straight into work. IIRC the average salary for university leavers in the UK is £12.5k/$22k.

The social side of university is definitely worthwhile, but as to the other aspects of further study it only lends credibility to the saying that "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, lecture. Those who can't lecture, do research."

[Dros]

The social side of university is definitely worthwhile, but as to the other aspects of further study it only lends credibility to the saying that "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, lecture. Those who can't lecture, do research."

As a cancer researcher, let me just say, "Thanks!".

[jefhatfield]

i know what i say usually evokes a negative response on this topic

i believe education can affect salary...but not in the great ways some here believe

there are many larger benefits to college of which many have been mentioned on this thread

do i believe in vast left wing conspiracies? no...i am a blue dog democrat (fiscal conservative, social liberal) and though i embrace the democrat's ideal for social justice, i also see the need for a pragmatic, focused approach to keeping costs down or paying off the defecit

i do like to debate against republicans, especially supporters of george bush, but i like to do so with facts and figures, but more importantly with an objective eye

like some of the pissed off people here, emotionalism on this hot button issue is to be expected but it does not help the cause that i believe in...federal funding for college education

just like throwing more money at a welfare state won't help most poor people, having more people with degrees won't help their financial situation...but a degree will help in other tangible ways which in the end makes it worth it...if throwing more money at the welfare system does help in other ways, then sure, i am all for it

like madchemist mentioned, there's a tendency to look at the monetary aspect of a college degree and that's the easy way out...it really does not hold water as an argument, especially in the eyes of many conservatives who already think federal funding for college is too high as it stands and would rather get their george bush tax cuts

if some of us who are pro education, including me, are to debate and win people over to the cause of federal funding for education, let us at least add the other benefits a college degree can add to the populace instead of sounding like a lunchtime tv add which might say, "enter so and so college, because studies have shown a college degree can increase your earnings 300 percent"

we have all heard adds like this on tv from the local junior college, to online master's degrees, to trade schools and they end up sounding like used car salesmen and ultimately it hurts the casue for education and federal funding for education

now down to the rich...am i jealous of kids with privelidge? no, acutally not since i am one and i don't apologize for it...i didn't choose my parents but i did spend a lot of my teenage years feeling guilty as hell seeing that most of my fellow minorities were poor and went to the neighboring military area school district and they often struggled in this overpriced area...northern california/central coast/silicon valley

i graduated from a well connected four year college which was heavily republican and i saw a lot of people go work for daddy or daddy's friends as an mba somewhere...the other big population of the school were air force officers and some officers of the other branches of service and when they graduated, they just went up to the next rank and their pay had a ceiling on it...they didn't have the connections to the big money some mba types can make...and everybody went to the same classes and ultimately graduated with the same BAs and MBAs...it's the connections and where one is born socio-economically which largely determine lifelong salary

about the only thing the school has in common is its conservative leaning and its student body shows the big factions of the gop party today...rich people and military personnel...but their fortunes are vastly different though their degrees are the same

i was heartbroken in the 2000 election when al gore lost...i have tried to analyze why and the most common answer was the ludricrous ideas the democrats had for their various agendas which includes education speding because it will make the kid richer if he has a degree, so "push federal funding for education", or in other areas, "push federal funding for 'this' or 'that'

i would love to see the democrats continue on in a fiscally sound, practical direction in the way clinton helped rebuild the party

what i most fear is the return of the tax and spend democrats and their often stupid reasons for why they believe in what they believe...i think with the tax and spend crowd of the old democrats, they lost sight of their goal and everything was for the good of the people, including degrees which give more income "argument" and this is what ronald reagan so brilliantly was able to take and ridicule...all the way to the white house

i once had a very emotional economics teacher who hated the rich and thought they wanted to keep the "rest of us" from having a degree or funding education because that was the secret to wealth more than anything in america...and they didn't want to share a piece of the pie because that would make their share diminish

and she liked to state, "a college degree will guarantee you three times more money in life" ;)

[yuc7zhd2]

I see what you mean with clarification, although I still think it is a bit odd to say that the statistics have been skewed. Wages do go up with college education, but I have never argued that these wage increases occur for everyone, nor do I think anyone else has argued that. The most important thing that politicians (ESPECIALLY REPUBLICANS) should look at when looking at education is not the social welfare that will occur from increased wages. If everyone has a college education in a closed economy, the qualifications will be identical and one would need a doctorate or masters in order to earn 'higher wages' from education. What politicians and the nation gain from socialized education is a greater competitiveness with foreign labor. Socialized education can be equated with improving a nations capital structure and efficiency. In a free trade environment, all other factors held equal, would you rather employee ignorant americans for a larger expense, or equally educated individuals in another region who demand lower wages? Higher levels of education increase jobs in a trade area. Education is an asset. In addition, look at post graduate programs in western countries (especially the states). Because of the weak math background in the United States, many foreign students have a major advantage in acceptance to graduate programs in many fields. If those students choose not to remain in the united states (or insert western nation here), guess where the jobs and knowlege go, even if it is for a cheaper wage rate?

[idkew]

Did you really get your moneys-worth?

NO

all my money went to the science people. our design lab was running on 233mhz g3s until late last year. we didn't even have a color laser printer. mind you, tuition is almost $30,000 now. i should have had a top-of-the-line g4 to myself for that price.

plus, i have no job after graduating 6 months ago.


edit- i did have a blast though! loved the social life, and my fraternity, Theta Chi.

[idkew]

Here's my advice: Don't get lured into any of the fun majors that cater to interests of yours unless you can see a clear path to a good paying job that is in reasonably high demand. That pretty much counts out all the arts and humanities majors. Be hard-nosed. Do something dull, if you have to, as long as it pays the bills... Because the chances that you'll find a job you love are slim. It's a sad but unavoidable truth. So you might as well find a job that at least pays well.

I hope I never get that cynical! (I'm a music major.)

As an Art major, i think you are being too cynical.

Do not choose a job because it will make money. You will be an unhappy rich person. Who cares. Choose a job you love, and make whatever living it gives you. I know I would rather be happy in life than rich. But what do I know, I was an art major.

[jefhatfield]

sometimes a sample can be large, but that does not guarantee an accurate result

in politics, which i guess i have unfortunately added to this thread...he he...;)...one perfect example is the truman vs dewey presidential election of 1948

based largely on phone surveys, dewey seemed comfortably ahead, statistically, on the eve of the election and as we all know from history, the papers printed, "dewey defeats truman"

the only problem with that was how the poll was administered...in those days phones were not largely used by the lower middle class so they didn't take part in the survey...the the upper classes who were in the survey were naturally tending toward a conservative bent

so because of the sample chosen, though very large, the sample was skewed

in many educational surveys, college graduates who don't make a lot of money do not like to answer or even turn in the sample survey...i have often received surveys in the past and i always try to answer them but many people won't for one reason or another and i suspect people who are unemployed but degreed don't want to partake in such a survey

when the reagan administration wanted to make their low unemployment figures look decent, they polled a large sample from the wealthiest sectors and jobs in america to get a desired result...and thus were able to brag about how "great" their america was with "low" unemployment

i believe most surveys have at least a slight skew and the targeted sample the survey makers, or funders, want to show...often these surveys can foster financial and political support and one way to see facts is what studies the different parties decide on choosing

right now the ecomony is on the rise in all sectors except for employment...the gop will not talk about employment....gee, i wonder why?? ;)

[jefhatfield]

I graduate after 4 years at university this July. For me the only real reason to go was to increase my job chances, ultimately boiling down to how much of a starting salary I could expect.

As it is I've spent 3yrs studying mindlessly boring subjects towards a BSc in Business Management - however I have ended up with a well paid job as a result of doing an industrial placement for a year.

Once I graduate I'll be on a starting salary of £18k/$32k compared to the £8-11k ($14-19) I'd be looking at as a result of leaving high school and going straight into work. IIRC the average salary for university leavers in the UK is £12.5k/$22k.

The social side of university is definitely worthwhile, but as to the other aspects of further study it only lends credibility to the saying that "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, lecture. Those who can't lecture, do research."


you are talking about england and i have no idea of the dynamics there with a degree...but i wish you the best of success and congrats on your accomplishment :)

[themadchemist]

The social side of university is definitely worthwhile, but as to the other aspects of further study it only lends credibility to the saying that "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, lecture. Those who can't lecture, do research."

It helps, when you make a statement like this, if you substantiate your claim with evidence. This quote does not seem relevant to the rest of your post and even if in some vague sense it is, you use the quote to describe the primary and prime secondary purposes of university education without even anecdotal evidence. I don't think this is constructive.

[Dros]

The social side of university is definitely worthwhile, but as to the other aspects of further study it only lends credibility to the saying that "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, lecture. Those who can't lecture, do research."

It helps, when you make a statement like this, if you substantiate your claim with evidence. This quote does not seem relevant to the rest of your post and even if in some vague sense it is, you use the quote to describe the primary and prime secondary purposes of university education without even anecdotal evidence. I don't think this is constructive.

It is just a silly cliche. Similar to "If you do poorly in school and are mad at your professors, it makes you feel better to pretend what they do is useless." :D

As I said above, I do research. I don't know why it would be more valid in a biotech company. Companies are incredibly inefficient at research, since the scientists answer to the short-term horizon of the marketplace.

I don't even really get the distinction between "teach" and "lecture". I teach both a seminar-style class and a lecture. I put a lot of effort into both, and I think both groups of students get something out of it (some even say it is the best class they've taken). I don't need to put that kind of time in... my promotions are from evaluating research and grants, primarily, so it doesn't help when I hear someone else putting down teaching. "Those who can, do"? I feel like I "do". I'm making important progress on aspects of cell biology that could lead to new cancer cures. I'm helping to train graduate students to become good researchers. I'm teaching undergraduates about biology in the hopes that they will become intellectually excited about, whether for doing medicine, research themselves or just to help them understand some of biology-related issues our society will face this century. I could "do" research for some biotech for much more money. I like my life, though... hope you enjoy yours!

[themadchemist]

It is just a silly cliche. Similar to "If you do poorly in school and are mad at your professors, it makes you feel better to pretend what they do is useless." :D

As I said above, I do research. I don't know why it would be more valid in a biotech company. Companies are incredibly inefficient at research, since the scientists answer to the short-term horizon of the marketplace.

I don't even really get the distinction between "teach" and "lecture". I teach both a seminar-style class and a lecture. I put a lot of effort into both, and I think both groups of students get something out of it (some even say it is the best class they've taken). I don't need to put that kind of time in... my promotions are from evaluating research and grants, primarily, so it doesn't help when I hear someone else putting down teaching. "Those who can, do"? I feel like I "do". I'm making important progress on aspects of cell biology that could lead to new cancer cures. I'm helping to train graduate students to become good researchers. I'm teaching undergraduates about biology in the hopes that they will become intellectually excited about, whether for doing medicine, research themselves or just to help them understand some of biology-related issues our society will face this century. I could "do" research for some biotech for much more money. I like my life, though... hope you enjoy yours!

a noble pursuit, indeed

[jefhatfield]

hey dros,

i don't care if you are a doer, teacher, lecturer, or reasearcher...i am just glad that you are on the side of humanity finding the cure for cancer

...and along with madchemist, i agree that you are in a noble pursuit...the world can use more people like you

so from this conservative "cheapskate" democrat, ;) , i thank you for your labors

jef

[Blackstealth]

It helps, when you make a statement like this, if you substantiate your claim with evidence. This quote does not seem relevant to the rest of your post and even if in some vague sense it is, you use the quote to describe the primary and prime secondary purposes of university education without even anecdotal evidence. I don't think this is constructive.

Okay, so maybe the proverb is not relevant to the US style of teaching, but within the British system (and I'm talking right the way through from kindergarten to undergraduate study) teaching pretty much sucks unless you're willing to pay serious cash and go to public school.

I've spent 3 years attending a well known University's Management school and have found that those doing research in this particular field are absolute wastes of space - who really gives a damn on the impact of aromas and ethic music in the buying process in supermarkets?

And then they get the very same people like these to effectively 'teach' undergraduate students, when the lecturers themselves lack the personal and social skills to 'facilitate learning' as they like to call it at my school.

People doing research which will assist in the advancement of mankind are worth respecting, people doing research because they can't get a job aren't.

No I'm not bitter and twisted because I've done badly, I've always been in the top 5% of so of my class since 4th grade. I've just spent enough time studying and working in education, and time living with family members working in the university system, to see that it's all politics and corruption - its not about how good an education the students receive it's all for personal gain of the teaching staff. As mentioned previously this is just the British (in particular the English) system, YMMV in the rest of the world.

--
Edit:

And to clarify the distinction between teaching and lecturing; teaching in the UK relates to education between the ages of 4-18yrs, lecturing is in referral to universities and colleges of further study.