As if I needed any further proof....

[SiliconAddict]

I never cared for Hummers. SUV's already are an affront to my sensibilities. Hummers for me are concentrated SUV's. They just irk me when I seem them. Its splurging for the sake of splurging. *shakes head* back on topic.
So last Sunday I was wardriving on the U of M campus. I move into the Dinkytown area and am making my way down a rather dark street. At the end I see two reflectors. Fine. Someone is parked on the street. I get closer and can make out a boxy shape. Hmm. I get closer and see that its olive green. *Rolls eyes* Stupid hummers. So I get within 50 feet and realize that its not a Hummer. Its one of those big garbage bins that people use when they are doing construction. In this case it was a house.
So in conclusion. Hummers are $100,000 garbage bins on wheels. Life's little ironies continues to amuse me.

[iJon]

i like them, i wouldnt own one personally just cause they are to big for my liking. they would make great offroading vehicles, but i like my jeep more. its smaller and i can fit into tight places that the hummer wish it could go to. plus the reliability on the hummers are awful from what ive heard, also according to the latest consumer reports. i has happy to see my 2003 liberty was perfect in every category and recommended pick. but also you said they are 100 grand, which means you are referring to the h1's. they are awesome vehicles and serve their purpose quite well, whether you like them or not.

iJon

[sonofslim]

they are awesome vehicles and serve their purpose quite well, whether you like them or not.

unfortunately, plenty of people think their purpose is to tie up two lanes of traffic in midtown manhattan. which, admittedly, they do accomplish quite well.

[iJon]

unfortunately, plenty of people think their purpose is to tie up two lanes of traffic in midtown manhattan. which, admittedly, they do accomplish quite well.
well i coulnt imagine driving it in manhattan either, that would see rather pointless. if i had enough money to buy a h1, i would probably buy a smaller town car, but who knows.

iJon

[evil]

yeah i see those stupid hummers in downtown toronto all the time.
the other suv that i really find stupid is the porsche cayanne.

ugh

[Powerbook G5]

I find all SUVs that are used to go to the grocery store and pick the kids up from work as a sad, pathetic waste and yet another sign that Americans are in the wrong mindset when it comes to safety and efficiency. If people bought Jeeps and Hummers to go off-roading and all those things that they are designed for, then more power to them, at least they are using them for something besides sucking up gas and making the roads less safe for the rest of us.

[takao]

well the hummer never was designed for good looks ;)

and actually the porsche cheyenne is outselling the porsche 911 by 8:1 in america most bought porsche since years...americans just like it big ;-)

if this would have been a american vehicle i guess it would be driving around like the hummer as well:
http://www.waffenhq.de/panzer/zobel.html

[SiliconAddict]

well the hummer never was designed for good looks ;)

and actually the porsche cheyenne is outselling the porsche 911 by 8:1 in america most bought porsche since years...americans just like it big ;-)

if this would have been a american vehicle i guess it would be driving around like the hummer as well:
http://www.waffenhq.de/panzer/zobel.html
:eek: takao! Hide that dang picture! You are going to give someone ideas.

[iJon]

I find all SUVs that are used to go to the grocery store and pick the kids up from work as a sad, pathetic waste and yet another sign that Americans are in the wrong mindset when it comes to safety and efficiency. If people bought Jeeps and Hummers to go off-roading and all those things that they are designed for, then more power to them, at least they are using them for something besides sucking up gas and making the roads less safe for the rest of us.
seems to me that putting the jeeps with the hummers is a little off. yes i am one of those people who off roads in my jeep, but even if i didnt iwouldnt feel bad about my liberty. for one the hummers gets less than half of the mpg than the liberty. a lot of people like knowing that when it snows heavily or gets slick they can kick it into 4wd and be much safer, but at teh same time an experienced driver can drive through snow with any car and be safe. and i dont know what makes the jeep so much unsafer than say a car. yeah its top heavy, but if you follow the speed limit you dont have to worry about the car tiping over. jeep is making them better, they are coming out with a turbo disel liberty this fall. torque of a v8, speed of a v6, and fuel economy of a v4. im a huge jeep fan and i just like to defend my car, whether my opinion be right or wrong.

iJon

[JamesDPS]

Gotta admit, that Zobel is kind of awesome looking. Anyway, H2 totally sucks -- it's built on a Suburban chassis, and the clearance at the transfer cases is aweful... it's definitely a soccer mom car and is probably pretty mediocre off-road (especially given its wide stance).

The original Hummer is a different story, as it's clearly a true off-roading car, but as pointed out, it's a military vehicle that should never have been made street-legal due to its wideness, poor visibility in traffic, etc. But they don't bother me like H2's do.

As for true offroading (nearly anywhere except a desert), the narrowness of jeeps give them a slight edge, but Wranglers are still really unstable unless you modify the hell out of them so that they don't roll over. Gotta go with Land Rover on this one -- Discos and Range Rovers are great off-road, but for the true experience, nothing beats the Defender (D90 and D110). Too bad they stopped making US spec Defenders a while ago (they're starting to go up in value if you have one!).

Still, if I hadbucks, would have to go with a Range Rover (and a sports car -- perfect combo). Like everyone in LA, sure I don't go off-roading all that much, but on the other hand my current car (a 99 mitsu eclipse w/ very thin tires) really doesn't like some of the potholed roads around here. And the RR is just so incredibly comfortable now (the newish "BMW" ones, that is), without being a spongy monstrosity like all the huge American SUVs.

[Moxiemike]

seems to me that putting the jeeps with the hummers is a little off. yes i am one of those people who off roads in my jeep, but even if i didnt iwouldnt feel bad about my liberty. for one the hummers gets less than half of the mpg than the liberty. a lot of people like knowing that when it snows heavily or gets slick they can kick it into 4wd and be much safer, but at teh same time an experienced driver can drive through snow with any car and be safe. and i dont know what makes the jeep so much unsafer than say a car. yeah its top heavy, but if you follow the speed limit you dont have to worry about the car tiping over. jeep is making them better, they are coming out with a turbo disel liberty this fall. torque of a v8, speed of a v6, and fuel economy of a v4. im a huge jeep fan and i just like to defend my car, whether my opinion be right or wrong.

iJon

As far as 4wd and slick roads... it doesn't help. ;) SO yea. you can use it when it snows and be justified, oh, maybe like, 10 days out of the year, when there's snow and the street teams haven't cleared them.

Even then, I must say, my Saab 9-3 turbo performed wonderfully in the snow as any 4wd, especially when I put some chains on the tires. Even when i didn't, the ol' Saab was a true road warrior. I even passed a Jeep Grand Cherokee that was truly off-roading, meaning that it was stuck in an embankment. How's that for 4wd? ;)

And I was still topping 26 mpg in crappy snowy weather. When the weather is favourable, I get around 29-32 mpg, depending on highway or city mileage. And when I can set the cruise control, I get 36mpg, like I did last year on the way to DC.

And when you go offroading, which is how often? One weekend a month maybe? So like, 40 days of the year you can justify having an SUV. What about the other 316?

There's not much of a justification for SUVs at all.

[takao]

torque of a v8, speed of a v6, and fuel economy of a v4.
iJon

and a hummer is more like speed of a V4,torque of a v6, and fuel economy of a 47.6 liter V12 Twin-Turbo Leopard 2 Tank Engine
:D

[eyelikeart]

In my opinion, the Hummer H2 is the pinnacle of arrogance & excessiveness in this country. It's ridiculously huge, not very good looking, and overkill for any purpose for which the people who can afford to own these monstrousities.

Yes, I have a problem with the SUV craze that has taken over this country. Yes, I do believe that the need for such an obnoxiously large vehicle like the H2 is to provide a false umbrella for the insecure.

No, I don't care if I get flamed here. ;)

[Moxiemike]

In my opinion, the Hummer H2 is the pinnacle of arrogance & excessiveness in this country. It's ridiculously huge, not very good looking, and overkill for any purpose for which the people who can afford to own these monstrousities.

Yes, I have a problem with the SUV craze that has taken over this country. Yes, I do believe that the need for such an obnoxiously large vehicle like the H2 is to provide a false umbrella for the insecure.

No, I don't care if I get flamed here. ;)

I'm with you. You knew that though. BTW, how's that matrix running? Good gas mileage? Lots of room? 4wd? Speedy? Agile? Can fit in parking spaces?

Hmmm. That's SO ideal... and NOT an SUV. :)

Rock it man! Rock it!

[iJon]

There's not much of a justification for SUVs at all.
but if i dont have i cant offroad at all. and i never know when im going to offroad. many times everyweekend ill go somewhere where it comes in handy, places i would have never taken my old cars (acura legend and acura tl). its stupid to say that just cause you dont use it everyday for offroading it was a pointless purchase. i have a nice car that i can take many people in places, put lots of stuff in, have fun and go camping, going to moab utah this summer to go slick rock climbing, can go offroading here in the ozarks whenever i . personally i would rather have a car that can do it all no matter when than a car that can do some of it. its all personal preference and hobbies. i like to offroad, i have a jeep, thats enough justification to me.

iJon

[eyelikeart]

I'm with you. You knew that though. BTW, how's that matrix running? Good gas mileage? Lots of room? 4wd? Speedy? Agile? Can fit in parking spaces?

Hmmm. That's SO ideal... and NOT an SUV. :)

Rock it man! Rock it!

Yeah it rocks dude. ;)

It's doing really well. Gas mileage is great. Performance is top notch. It's got lots of space for all my gear, my mountain bike, moving things around, and it's easy to park. :D

[Moxiemike]

Yeah it rocks dude. ;)

It's doing really well. Gas mileage is great. Performance is top notch. It's got lots of space for all my gear, my mountain bike, moving things around, and it's easy to park. :D

Sounds like a fine utilitarian vehicle to me.

[agreenster]

I pulled into a parking space the other day next to a Cadillac Escalade or one of those big frikkin trucks, and noticed that the BUMPER of that vehicle was at my EYE level. Talk about feeling safe. :rolleyes: With idiots on the road with no patience, people in regular cars are nothing but casualities waiting to happen.

I feel very unsafe.

[eyelikeart]

I pulled into a parking space the other day next to a Cadillac Escalade or one of those big frikkin trucks, and noticed that the BUMPER of that vehicle was at my EYE level.

That's another issue with them, the level of things as opposed to cars. I cannot tell u how many times I've been blinded by high positioned headlights.

I hope I'm not contributing to a rant thread here.

[parrothead]

I agree with you about driving in snow. People use the possibility of driving in snow as an excuse to buy big gas sucking vehicles. I had a little rear wheel drive pickup and drove it in the snow all the time. Snow and ice weren't nothing some snow chains and sandbags didnt overcome. As for hummers, I would consider buying one.... only if I were going to go on a trek across Africa or drive the length of the americas. Even then other vehicles probably would be better. The Landcruiser 78 troopcarrier for example. You Aussies and Kiwis could back me up. Those things are one of the trucks of choice for going out into the bush. Better mileage, more room, and takes up less space than the hummers.

As far as 4wd and slick roads... it doesn't help. ;) SO yea. you can use it when it snows and be justified, oh, maybe like, 10 days out of the year, when there's snow and the street teams haven't cleared them.

Even then, I must say, my Saab 9-3 turbo performed wonderfully in the snow as any 4wd, especially when I put some chains on the tires. Even when i didn't, the ol' Saab was a true road warrior. I even passed a Jeep Grand Cherokee that was truly off-roading, meaning that it was stuck in an embankment. How's that for 4wd? ;)

And I was still topping 26 mpg in crappy snowy weather. When the weather is favourable, I get around 29-32 mpg, depending on highway or city mileage. And when I can set the cruise control, I get 36mpg, like I did last year on the way to DC.

And when you go offroading, which is how often? One weekend a month maybe? So like, 40 days of the year you can justify having an SUV. What about the other 316?

There's not much of a justification for SUVs at all.

[parrothead]

well the hummer never was designed for good looks ;)

and actually the porsche cheyenne is outselling the porsche 911 by 8:1 in america most bought porsche since years...americans just like it big ;-)

if this would have been a american vehicle i guess it would be driving around like the hummer as well:
http://www.waffenhq.de/panzer/zobel.html

that thing looks like it has the ground clearance of a 911. My favorite is the propellors on the front. My German isnt nearly good enough to read that site, but it looks like it is supposed to be amphibious. Also, i have always wanted a car with axes and shovels mounted on the sides.

[takao]

i guess now it's time for some serious offroading
http://www.myhaflinger.com/Pinzgauer/christoph/large/019.jpg

SCNR we drove those around like crazy... when going faster than 60mph it is loud as hell and you can't understand those people on the backseats
at 70mph you think "well that's it im going to die"
80mph isn't possible even with driving down a mountain street

[G4scott]

I don't agree with the "There is no justification for SUV's at all" idea...

Try driving a packed, dual-axle trailer that weighs somewhere over 2000 pounds from Michigan to deep south Texas, while still carrying three people and their gear comfortably.

This is just one of the reasons why my dad drives a suburban. A smaller truck/SUV would have a hard time stopping with that much weight behind it (It was hard enough in a suburban, and the trailer even had breaks), or going up a hill with it. It'd also be bad on the engine, and would give you horrible fuel economy.

My dad also uses it to transport things like tubas, and large instruments. Things that you can't fit more than one of in a normal sized car.

Also, towing the boat and taking the family of 5 to the beach for a weekend is another justification.

Now my mom has a 4 cylinder Subaru outback, my brother and I have a Ford Escort in college, and my little brother drives a 4 cylinder 4 wheel drive Toyota truck.

There are justifications for SUV's, and sensible people can still own SUV's, and use them, because other vehicles don't get the job done.

[iJon]

I don't agree with the "There is no justification for SUV's at all" idea...

Try driving a packed, dual-axle trailer that weighs somewhere over 2000 pounds from Michigan to deep south Texas, while still carrying three people and their gear comfortably.

This is just one of the reasons why my dad drives a suburban. A smaller truck/SUV would have a hard time stopping with that much weight behind it (It was hard enough in a suburban, and the trailer even had breaks), or going up a hill with it. It'd also be bad on the engine, and would give you horrible fuel economy.

My dad also uses it to transport things like tubas, and large instruments. Things that you can't fit more than one of in a normal sized car.

Also, towing the boat and taking the family of 5 to the beach for a weekend is another justification.

Now my mom has a 4 cylinder Subaru outback, my brother and I have a Ford Escort in college, and my little brother drives a 4 cylinder 4 wheel drive Toyota truck.

There are justifications for SUV's, and sensible people can still own SUV's, and use them, because other vehicles don't get the job done.
but come on, unless you tow a boat and go to the lake everyday then there is no justification :rolleyes:. your reasons are similar to why my family owns a suburban, it can just do things my liberty or other cars we have had in the past cant do. we pack 8 people in there and sometimes more for ballgames and other special occasions. also we own a motorhome, it guzzles gas and we dont go camping everyday, i wonder if thats frowned upon.

iJon

[parrothead]

I agree with you totally. There are some people that need SUVs for certain things like towing or commercial/recreational activities that require a lot of gear. However I think that SUVs should be niche vehicles that only those people buy instead of everyone buying them. You need a car that can hold lots of groceries? Get one with a big trunk. You need one that can hold a lot of people, get a van or minivan. You need to tow a big trailer regularly, get a suburban. You need to take your kids to soccer practice get a car.

I don't agree with the "There is no justification for SUV's at all" idea...

Try driving a packed, dual-axle trailer that weighs somewhere over 2000 pounds from Michigan to deep south Texas, while still carrying three people and their gear comfortably.

This is just one of the reasons why my dad drives a suburban. A smaller truck/SUV would have a hard time stopping with that much weight behind it (It was hard enough in a suburban, and the trailer even had breaks), or going up a hill with it. It'd also be bad on the engine, and would give you horrible fuel economy.

My dad also uses it to transport things like tubas, and large instruments. Things that you can't fit more than one of in a normal sized car.

Also, towing the boat and taking the family of 5 to the beach for a weekend is another justification.

Now my mom has a 4 cylinder Subaru outback, my brother and I have a Ford Escort in college, and my little brother drives a 4 cylinder 4 wheel drive Toyota truck.

There are justifications for SUV's, and sensible people can still own SUV's, and use them, because other vehicles don't get the job done.

[Juventuz]

There are justifications for SUV's, and sensible people can still own SUV's, and use them, because other vehicles don't get the job done.

Exactly! There are plenty of justification of having an SUV. I go off roading quite a bit, not to mention that I play tourny paintball. Try loading all that gear and teammates into a volvo or saab. It's NOT going to happen. There isn't a weekend that doesn't go by that I don't have the back of my Jeep packed with equipment going somewhere. The towing capabilities of my Cherokee make it a dream to have. Not to mention that I can get from Binghamton, NY to NYC (a 3 hour drive) on less than a half a tank of gas. My little two seater Z takes 3/4 of a tank and gets worse mileage to the gallon.

People who see no justifications in owning an SUV have their own personal bias against them.

[applebum]

There's not much of a justification for SUVs at all.

Hmmm - I remodeled the kitchen in my house myself. I was able to haul all the wood and cabinets and any other building materials I needed in my Ford Explorer. I tend to build a lot of things and find myself at Lowes or Home Depot frequently. I also have 5 dogs - all rescues - kinda hard to get them all to the vet in my little 4 cylinder mustang. I occasionally do carpool for my niece and her friends. That keeps a couple of extra cars off the road. I usually get about 20 miles to the gallon - that is much better than my friends 8 cylinder sports car.

Speaking of sports cars, what's the justification for those? They usually eat gas, often only hold 2 people, and are often driven well above the speed limits. Ask people why they own them, and it is usually to look good and go fast.

I have a feeling there are more good reasons for driving SUV's than good reason's for driving sports cars. Yet you seldom hear people complain about the sports cars being on the road.

People always have reasons for the vehicles they drive. Not all of them are good reasons, but to suggest that there is no good reason for driving an SUV is somewhat closeminded.

[iJon]

not to mention that they usually get worse gas mileage just with how people drive them, which is how i drive my mom's bmw. i floor it all the time and its a blast, but im sure its not economically good but i dont really care.

iJon

[TEG]

I like them, and I'm really excited about the H3T, but I would not buy one. There are three reasons for this...
1) Too Damn Expensive
2) Terrible Gas Mileage
3) Insurance Rates would be through the roof.

In the mean time I'm looking into a Chevy Impala or a Pontiac Grand Prix 4door, I want a car to replace my POS Taurus. Hopefully something with similar cargo room, decient gas milage (The FT gets 18/30/35, the third number is extended highway driving), and won't double my insurance.

TEG

[Thanatoast]

People who see no justifications in owning an SUV have their own personal bias against them.
There are justifications to owning an SUV, it's just that 90% of the people who do own SUV's can't use those justifications. In most cases a minivan or station wagon would suit them, and everyone else around them, better.

BTW, the first clue that SUV's are mostly useless is their name, "sport utility vehicle", a contradiction in terms. For those who can justify their purchases, they can be called by the old name, 4x4's. :D

[Stelliform]

BTW, the first clue that SUV's are mostly useless is their name, "sport utility vehicle", a contradiction in terms. For those who can justify their purchases, they can be called by the old name, 4x4's. :D

SUV isn't a new name. I owned a Dodge 1983 Ram Charger, and the vehicle title from 1983 (when my dad bought it.) said Classification: Sport Utility Vehicle. When I saw the first ads in the early 90's saying... "Introducing the Sport Utility Vehicle I almost faxed them a copy of my title.

[Nanda Devi]

In my opinion, the Hummer H2 is the pinnacle of arrogance & excessiveness in this country. It's ridiculously huge, not very good looking, and overkill for any purpose for which the people who can afford to own these monstrousities.

Yes, I have a problem with the SUV craze that has taken over this country. Yes, I do believe that the need for such an obnoxiously large vehicle like the H2 is to provide a false umbrella for the insecure.

No, I don't care if I get flamed here. ;)

No flames coming from me, I'm with you 100 percent on everything you've said. This uncontrollable surge of hot rage comes over me whenener I see a g-damn Hummer, I think they are the most obnoxious, excessive, consumptive thing out there, and hideous to boot. People just look like jerks driving around in them, and they just think they're bad-a** or something.

What I find so sick and ridiculous about all the SUVs out there is the fact that they're all named after national parks and moutains and the like - you've got the Yukon, the Sierra, the Rainier, the Sequoia, the Denali, the Mountaineer (I always feel like asking, "do much mountaineering in that thing??"). Anyway, it's like they're being named after the areas of natural beauty that they're going to end up wiping out with their emmissions and by sucking up all the oil so the government will be "forced" to drill all those national parks to death.

I guess the only one with a half-way accurate name is the Suburban, because that's where most of the people who own it drive it...

Gee, I love my little Honda Civic. It's all I need, I guess I'm some kind of un-American freak. :rolleyes:

[crazytom]

I've always felt that if you can afford it and need it, an SUV is a good buy. I get along fine in my 1991 Geo Metro and laugh at all the big cars when gas prices shoot sky high. If there's too much snow on the ground, I don't care, there's no place I have to be that important enough to risk my life getting there....though with all the big cars on the road, I risk my life every time I'm in the Metro.

I recently looked at replacing my Metro. There's nothing out there for under $15K that gets 50mpg or better. It's a disgusting trend for US automakers. Even the new Chevy Aveo gets a paltry 34 mpg on the highway. My Metro gets better city mileage in the winter!

If I really wanted to go offroading, which wouldn't be daily, I'd probably rent a SUV...it'd be cheaper. As for towing and stopping with largish loads: they make trailers with brakes.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasons for going with large vehicles, I grew up riding in Lincoln Town Car's....nice, big, comfortable, like floating on a cloud...but I guess I'm just more concerned with getting from point A to point B efficiently. To each his own.

[applebum]

This uncontrollable surge of hot rage comes over me whenener I see a g-damn Hummer, I think they are the most obnoxious, excessive, consumptive thing out there, and hideous to boot.

Really? And the people who ride around in limosines and jet off in their personal planes are what....glamorous? I tend to think either of these are far more excessive and consumptive.

[iJon]

If I really wanted to go offroading, which wouldn't be daily, I'd probably rent a SUV
interesting idea, but like many of my offroading friends, we mod the hell out of our cars. new bumper, hitches, tow hooks, lifts, new tires, full skid protection and rock rails. ive put off my serious offroading until i get my 4 skid plates in and my rock rails, but depending on where you are going a rented one may do you just fine.

iJon

[Nanda Devi]

Really? And the people who ride around in limosines and jet off in their personal planes are what....glamorous? I tend to think either of these are far more excessive and consumptive.

What about the ever-popular Hummer Limo? I guess those would win the most consumptive prize. ;)

Honestly though, I don't quite get your argument... who's talking about limos and private jets? Yeah, I guess those things are pretty damned excessive and unncessary as well. People loading up on cheaply-made things they don't even need just because they're on sale at Walmart (things that will be worn out or broken in a few weeks or months only to wind up in a landfill I might add) is also consumptive and irresponsible, but that's off the subject. The subject here was SUVs and Hummers in particular.

If that was an attempt at an argument against what I said, please try again.

[Counterfit]

In most cases a minivan or station wagon would suit them I have yet to see an SUV or station wagon that could hold 4 timpanis better than my father's 93 Caravan. It can also hold a full sheet of plywood, and just about anything else you could want to carry around inside a car. But I have a suggestion, if you want to haul 800lbs of concrete mix, put it in the middle, unless you like looking at the sky while you drive ;)

[crazytom]

Look what my LAST CAR (http://www.s00k.com/archives/overloaded1.html) could do!!!

[Dros]

Gee, I love my little Honda Civic. It's all I need, I guess I'm some kind of un-American freak. :rolleyes:

I have a Honda Civic hatchback. I drove it 600 miles packed to the gills when I moved... over mountain ranges even and it still got 40 mpg. This is a 15 year old car with 150,000 miles on it.

Now, I can afford to live close to where I work and shop. I walk all the time, and drive maybe once or twice a month. Think how nice this country would be if that was everyone's ideal. No traffic, tiny parking lots in front of stores, all that road infrastructure costs returned to the taxpayer. And instead of buying a $30,000 SUV every 5-10 years, people would have an extra $100,000 in the time it typically takes to pay off a home mortgage.

I get a little worked up when I see SUVs getting bigger and bigger parked at the grocery store. I get more worked up about seeing SUVs going offroading... is tearing around on roads not enough? Do people have to go tearing around the last bits of wilderness as well? But now that I'm walking I feel much more tolerant of things that other people do that used to drive me crazy.

[applebum]

What about the ever-popular Hummer Limo? I guess those would win the most consumptive prize. ;)

Honestly though, I don't quite get your argument... who's talking about limos and private jets? Yeah, I guess those things are pretty damned excessive and unncessary as well. People loading up on cheaply-made things they don't even need just because they're on sale at Walmart (things that will be worn out or broken in a few weeks or months only to wind up in a landfill I might add) is also consumptive and irresponsible, but that's off the subject. The subject here was SUVs and Hummers in particular.

If that was an attempt at an argument against what I said, please try again.

So, would you say that someone that drives a Hummer suffers from Excessive/Consumptive disorder? :D

Actually, this thread seems to have become about vehicles in general and the justification, or lack thereof, for having them. So generally, I was simply pointing out that there are other vehicles that are more excessive and consumptive than the Hummer. However, if you were simply saying that the Hummer is the most excessive and consumptive of SUV's, then I would tend to agree.

I tend to believe that the SUV takes an unfair pounding for "excess", when I believe that sports cars are far more excessive and have very little justification. Compare the Hummer to a 12 cylinder, 2 seater Corvette. The Hummer could do carpooling, can carry large amounts of supplies, luggage, gear, dogs, etc. (I do realize that you could do all this stuff with a much less excessive vehicle - such as a van - I am just pointing out that there are some practical things that can be done with a Hummer)
You can't do any of this with the Vette. Sure it is a sweet ride and looks great, but what else?

SUV's can have some practical purposes - can a sportscar?

[synergy]

Gotta admit, that Zobel is kind of awesome looking. Anyway, H2 totally sucks -- it's built on a Suburban chassis, and the clearance at the transfer cases is aweful... it's definitely a soccer mom car and is probably pretty mediocre off-road (especially given its wide stance).

The original Hummer is a different story, as it's clearly a true off-roading car, but as pointed out, it's a military vehicle that should never have been made street-legal due to its wideness, poor visibility in traffic, etc. But they don't bother me like H2's do.

As for true offroading (nearly anywhere except a desert), the narrowness of jeeps give them a slight edge, but Wranglers are still really unstable unless you modify the hell out of them so that they don't roll over. Gotta go with Land Rover on this one -- Discos and Range Rovers are great off-road, but for the true experience, nothing beats the Defender (D90 and D110). Too bad they stopped making US spec Defenders a while ago (they're starting to go up in value if you have one!).

Still, if I hadbucks, would have to go with a Range Rover (and a sports car -- perfect combo). Like everyone in LA, sure I don't go off-roading all that much, but on the other hand my current car (a 99 mitsu eclipse w/ very thin tires) really doesn't like some of the potholed roads around here. And the RR is just so incredibly comfortable now (the newish "BMW" ones, that is), without being a spongy monstrosity like all the huge American SUVs.


How is the original Hummer a true off road vehicle with its wide stance but the H2 not suited well for off roading because of its wide stance?
A narrow stance is more likely to cause tipover than a wide stance. Consider that when you are off roading.

[SiliconAddict]

I have no problems with SUV in the cases where people NEED them. I have a friend that lives way up in Montana and the roads in her neck of the, literal, woods sucks big time. But in the case of the average person their usual reasoning for an SUV is safety and that is asinine. Maybe against a sports car an SUV would be safer be safer but SUV vs. SUV you are pretty much even. Never mind the fact that those boxes on wheels are more likely to roll over and the perceived feeling of safety they provide which in turn causes these people to drive like idiots in bad weather. I can't count the number of SUV's I saw rolled on their side in the median this winter here in MN. A car almost never flips when they ditch. Every SUV I saw was on its side.
My point of the post wasn't to slam SUVs but to make a commentary on over the top Hummers. I think it could be safely said that there is really no excuse for using a Hummer other then a penis-waving contest.

As for sports cars depending on your definition. I have a Mercury Cougar XR Coup which isn't by any stretch of the imagination a luxury sports car. I get 22MPG. Which is a whole heck of a lot more then most average SUV's get. Examples? Ford Explorer: 15MPG, Toyota 4Runner: 18MPG, Ford Expedition: 14MPG, Cadillac Escalade: 14MPG, Nissan Murano: 20MPG, Toyota Highlander: 22MPG, Toyota RAV4: 24MPG
vs.
Toyota Celica: 29MPG, Mitsubishi Eclipse: 23MPG, Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder: 21MPG, Ford Mustang: 20MPG, BMW M3: 16MPG, Ferrari Enzo: 8MPG
Do you have some SUVs that get pretty good gas mileage? Sure. But by and large more get in the mid to upper teens for mileage which is just stupid. (FYI I listed some of the more popular SUVs and sports cars (With the exception of the last 2.) that are on the road.)
If you want to find out more go to: http://www.fueleconomy.gov

In any case the high end SUVs and luxury sports car both fall into the same class of penis-waving contests so it becomes a moot point. For me both are abhorrent.

[applebum]

In any case the high end SUVs and luxury sports car both fall into the same class of penis-waving contests so it becomes a moot point. For me both are abhorrent.

That is the point. The high end of both classes is basically about ego and look what I can afford. Yet somehow it is the SUV (the whole class - from my Explorer Sport all the way up to the Hummer) that has become synonimous(?sp) with Eco-unfriendly, anti-environment, terrorist supporting, add epithet here. This subject has pushed my buttons since the California Governors election when Arianna Huffington and another person (can't remember his name) started railing against SUV's - basically saying that anyone that drove one was supporting terrorists. Then Arianna would hop on her private jet and head to another interview!
Even here, in another thread about Country bashing, the SUV is referred to as non eco-friendly and their drivers are referred to as idiots (something of that nature). Why is this class so much more abhorrent than high end sportscars, limosines, older small cars that aren't well maintained and pour smoke, big luxury cars, etc.? Seems to me if we truly wanted to be eco-friendly we would all walk, bike, ride horses, or drive electric cars.

I just feel that my poor Explorer is being stereotyped and is a victim of Vehicle classism! :p

[Nanda Devi]

I have a Honda Civic hatchback. I drove it 600 miles packed to the gills when I moved... over mountain ranges even and it still got 40 mpg. This is a 15 year old car with 150,000 miles on it.

Now, I can afford to live close to where I work and shop. I walk all the time, and drive maybe once or twice a month. Think how nice this country would be if that was everyone's ideal.

How cool that you're able to walk to work, I wish I could. My boyfriend walked to work for 3 years straight until we had to move, and he always commented how nice it was to not have to deal with traffic and stop lights and all the stressful elements of driving... he could just walk peacefully along the road, and he always knew exactly how long it would take him to get there because there was never that train, accident or traffic jam to hold him up unexpectedly.

I agree, if people could walk more, or ride bikes, it would be a vast improvement. As other threads on this site have indicated occasionally, people could surely use the exercise, too. The gridlocked traffic in big cities is downright frightening and I wouldn't want to deal with that for anything. Can't wait till I can move to the mountains and live on a deserted dirt road somewhere. And no, I won't buy an SUV to tear up my surroundings! :)

Oh yes, and Hondas are great cars, they last forever and get awesome gas mileage. I drove mine all the way out to Yellowstone (from Michigan) last fall with all my camping gear for a 2-week trip in it. That little car made it down many hairy roads and up steep mountain roads with NO problems!

[Nanda Devi]

Why is this class so much more abhorrent than high end sportscars, limosines, older small cars that aren't well maintained and pour smoke, big luxury cars, etc.? Seems to me if we truly wanted to be eco-friendly we would all walk, bike, ride horses, or drive electric cars.

Hey, to tell you the truth limos suck too if you ask me! :p

As do old heaps that pour fumes into the air, there's no excuse for that, either.

And sports cars are usually a reflection of how insecure the driver is - the flashier the car, the lower the confidence of the guy driving it. I know, that's an old stereotype... the guy who hits 50 and all of a sudden feels like he needs a sports car in order to impress the ladies. Seems like anyone who would spend that much on a car is pretty shallow and, yes, comsumptive too...

And as I said in my previous post, walking and biking are great alternatives to driving, if only they were more feasible for people (or if people were more willing to put forth the extra effort/time it takes to walk or bike somewhere instead of hopping into the car).

[iJon]

And sports cars are usually a reflection of how insecure the driver is - the flashier the car, the lower the confidence of the guy driving it. I know, that's an old stereotype... the guy who hits 50 and all of a sudden feels like he needs a sports car in order to impress the ladies. Seems like anyone who would spend that much on a car is pretty shallow and, yes, comsumptive too...

thats such a pointless comment. my mom has a z3 and i dont feel more confident when i drive it, i already am confident with out that car. its fun as hell to drive, grips the corners for a fun country road drive, put the top down during nice weather and its even more fun. i have many friends with sport cars and its not impress anyone. like you said its a stereotype, and a stupid one as well.

iJon