IBM's POWER Event

[MacRumors]

At their POWER press event today, IBM announced (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=GENERIC&newsId=20040331005500&newsLang=en&beanID=928376271&viewID=news_view) a new Power licensee, new customers, and plans for reconfiguring processors.

- Sony has licensed the Power architecture from IBM
- L-3 Communications, Global Brands Manufacture Group, Memory Experts International, Block/Goldring, Christie Digital, and Princeton University are new customers
- Power5 demo running multiple operating systems in virtual micropartitions

A new "open hardware era":

IBM also will explore the notion of opening up our community and collaboration around Power Architecture. We will look at new governance models that will allow us to involve the community in Power Architecture's future and to help set the stage for further innovation

Also discussed were plans for Power chips that "can physically reconfigure themselves -- adding memory or accelerators, for example -- to optimize performance or power utilization for a specific application."

[PretendPCuser]

I'm interested in multiple operating systems over micropartitions. Sounds neat.

[technocoy]

if you ask me anyway.

when they say physically restructure, are we talking nanotechnology? or just allocating already in place hardware.

[CmdrLaForge]

Sounds good - but how important is it for Apple ? I guess broader usage of the chips means cheaper chips. Thats good for us :)

[wdlove]

I wonder why the new PC chip wasn't mentioned. In the commercial fro the G5 last year the vice-president at IBM, said that they were already working the the next generation chip! :confused:

[Mudbug]

good stuff - but I too wonder of the implications for Apple (if there really are any current that need to be addressed) and I'm wondering if there's any mention of scalability of current chips.

and the deal with Sony being a new licensee - does that mean Sony's getting into the server market, or going to be using these chips in desktop models, or am I just misunderstanding?

[Zaty]

- Power5 demo running multiple operating systems in virtual micropartitions



Running multiple operating systems? Does that mean I could e.g. run OS X and Linux concurrently?

[Engagebot]

no, the physical restructuring isnt as crazy as it sounds.

we've been having guitar amps do pretty much the same thing for a few years now...

[dontmatter]

well, I'm looking forward to this thread once we get some people who can explain just what this means. Is sony making windows based PC's with IBM chips? What exactly is this physical restructuring, will it have vast effects or just be a small nifty feature that notches performance up a bit? Why isn't there much talk of anything that looks like it could be that directly relevant to apple?

Somebody's gotta know....

(and it isn't me)

[Rustus Maximus]

when they say physically restructure, are we talking nanotechnology? or just allocating already in place hardware.

Sounds like Skynet trickery to me! ;)

and the deal with Sony being a new licensee - does that mean Sony's getting into the server market, or going to be using these chips in desktop models, or am I just misunderstanding?

I think I have read where the deal with Sony is for the CPU in the next generation Playstation.

[ThomasJefferson]

I guess broader usage of the chips means cheaper chips. Thats good for us :)

MeThinks Apple will not pass the savings on to the consumer. They have found our pricepoint and they mean to soak us dry.

[macridah]

good stuff - but I too wonder of the implications for Apple (if there really are any current that need to be addressed) and I'm wondering if there's any mention of scalability of current chips.

and the deal with Sony being a new licensee - does that mean Sony's getting into the server market, or going to be using these chips in desktop models, or am I just misunderstanding?


I hope sony doesn't use the chips for computers; that might make apple have to wait longer for chips. Most likely, sony will use a different version of the power 5 chips for consumer goods: cameras, dvd players, TV's, etc

[macphisto]

"POWER5 will be the "brain" of a new line of powerful computer systems that will be introduced in 2004."

Hmm, one wonders what new line this will be...cough, Apple.

[hvfsl]

I hope sony doesn't use the chips for computers; that might make apple have to wait longer for chips. Most likely, sony will use a different version of the power 5 chips for consumer goods: cameras, dvd players, TV's, etc
Most likely Sony will start making highend computers around the chips. Probably with a version of Linux/Unix. Those chips are a bit of an overkill for devices like dvd players or even TIVO type devices.

[nagromme]

That's true isn't it? X-Box, Nintendo, and the next Sony PlayStation will all use PowerPCs from IBM?

I assume that's what the Sony license is about.

Does this license mean that Sony will USE IBM chips? I assume NOT, since that's what the list of new "customers" would be.

So I assume this means that Sony can now BUILD THEIR OWN PowerPC chips. For the PlayStation 3, presumably. They have licensed the "architecture."

Thus Sony would not take chips away from what IBM can make for Apple, but would still promote the PPC platform in general. It certainly doesn't make G5s and beyond sound half bad, if all the next-gen high-power game machines including MS's own have chosen PowerPC. And this Sony thing may underscore what Mac folks already know: IBM isn't the only one who might produce PPC chips. Unlike Intel's line, which must be indirectly "cloned."

I also like the idea of more companies than just Apple collaborating with IBM to enhance future PPCs. Sounds like trouble for x86!

Or am I way off here?

[joco]

Does this mean no G5 updates today?

[dukemeiser]

Yep, Sony will use it for the PS3 just as M$ is going to use IBM for xBOx 2. Gamecube already uses PowerPCs

[macridah]

Most likely Sony will start making highend computers around the chips. Probably with a version of Linux/Unix. Those chips are a bit of an overkill for devices like dvd players or even TIVO type devices.

I didn't think they would use the 970fx or anything, the powerpc chip architecture comes in different flavors ... like the chips that xbox and nintendo will use. Which brings up a new point ... PS3

[Krrill]

Anyone know or understand the architecture of those chips they're showing? Or are they just gonna tease us to death as usual?

[Mord]

que the ppc 980 will it be the g6 or just like the 7410 was to the 7400

[gola]

This will be just great! Increasing attention and sales of the power architechture will make Apple cooler, and also increase the update rate! For once it will not be Apple against the world!

[lilac_wine]

My First Post.

It is likely that reconfiguration will occur through some SRAM FPGA type technology. SRAM reconfiguration can take a long time to complete (milli-seconds), so I am sure IBM has some new technology for doing it, but the basics will probably resemble FPGAs

The two big FPGA manufacturers already have products that combine processors with FPGAs. In some cases the processor is implemented in the FPGA fabric. In other products the processor is in hard silicon and tied to the FPGA fabric to implement custom peripherals.

http://altera.com/index.jsp#
http://xilinx.com/

Here is a company that claims to be able to do what IBM is likely talking about. I do not know anything about them.
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci760378,00.html

I am just guessing at what IBM has in mind.

[cbrantly]

What if Sony is purchasing chips from IBM to build their own desktop computers, and they have struck an exclusive deal with Steve to license OS X???

Maybe that will get this thread going...

[animemaster]

Sony will be using the IBM chips for the playstation 3.

[jyvin]

There is some interesting information about the PowerPC arch. in the PDFs IBM made available. This is what I gathered from it... In one of the documents it said the 970fx was 1.4-2.0+ GHz. Further down on the same page it said the bus speeds maxed out at 1.1 GHz. Using the present 970fx in production by Apple, does that mean the new 970fx can only get up to 2.2 GHz? That would certainly mean there is not an updated PowerMac using the 970 or 970fx. Which means Apple is waiting on the POWER5 to take off. The document I was referencing is found here:

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54/$file/PPC_QRG_2-22-04.pdf

What do you all think?

[jesuscandle]

Sony will be using the IBM chips for the playstation 3.

bah...I'm too lazy to find a source, but wasn't Sony working with Toshiba (?) to develop a whole new chip for the PS3? Seems like it would be a bigger deal to abandon that and follow MS to the PowerPC, no?

[MadMan]

First mention was this:

POWER5, which is IBM's own high-end design using the Power Architecture, will drive future versions of IBM's industry-leading server and storage systems. The PowerPC implementation of Power Architecture will continue to serve the OEM community.

I think this bodes well for what ever the CPU is called, that Apple uses based on the POWER5. It looks like they will keep them pretty much in sync, at least development wise. It could also mean that Apple could also design it's OWN CPU, based upon this new "open architecture".

Second:

New Product and Demonstration

-- Power Blade -- the IBM eServer(TM) BladeCenter(TM) JS20 - the industry's first blade system based on Power Architecture. The Medical College of Wisconsin plans to implement the JS20 BladeCenter as the heart of the new computing infrastructure for proteomics research. Researchers at the University of Oregon Neuroinformatics Center will use the JS20 as part of an advanced Grid computing infrastructure to apply high-performance computing to diagnosing and treating brain-related conditions.

IBM is finally releasing their own product using the PPC970. It doesn't say that it's using the 970fx, but it could be. That could also explain what looks to be low availability of the 970fx.

Third:

-- Princeton University today announced it is installing a new Power-based system to support research into areas such as Alzheimer's disease, spinal cord injury, diabetes, strokes and heart disease. The results will be shared with more than two dozen institutions worldwide.

This looks to me like the same deal that Apple announced, when it said it had started shipping the xServe G5. This is also good news that IBM is including Apple's use of the product (even if Apple isn't mentioned by name) in their press blurbs.

Over all, it looks like IBM is in this for the VERY LONG haul, and that can only mean more good things for Apple.

:cool:

MM

[wdlove]

What if Sony is purchasing chips from IBM to build their own desktop computers, and they have struck an exclusive deal with Steve to license OS X???

Maybe that will get this thread going...

I can't imagine that Steve would return to allowing a clone industry again. There was Power Computing in the 80's. My only relationship with the company was visiting there booth at MW Boston in 1987. Got a few free t-Shirts. :cool:

[Mr Maui]

MeThinks Apple will not pass the savings on to the consumer. They have found our pricepoint and they mean to soak us dry.

Accept the fact that Apple (and other companies) will charge whetever consumers are willing to pay.

People complain about Gas prices being too high at 1.80-2.00 per gallon, but I bet very few have cut back on their driving. Stop buying the product and the manufacturer or distributor will change their price structure quickly enough. :)

[Mr Maui]

Does this mean no G5 updates today?

Any "today" updates wouldhave been announced by now. :rolleyes:

[whatever]

Kool, I can't wait to buy a PS3 with a blazing IBM G5 ($300.00), load up OS X codename Bad-Kittie ($129.00), plug in my BlueTooth Adapter ($40.00), discover my Apple wireless keyboard ($50.00) and mouse ($40.00) and attach it to my 60" Pioneer Elite Plasma screen ($20,000.00).

Now that's a Sooper 'puter!

Wait, is that a bridge for sale over there....

Whatever

[technocoy]

more likely it is for some other device (computer) sony, toshiba, and IBM are developing a new type of process called "cell" where the processors can be linked to others in home electronics, other PS3s, etc, to draw more power. only xBox and Nintendo are using the PPC for their systems so far.

hope that clears things up,
technocoy

[technocoy]

not that it is at all likely, but sony always has some locked propietary software on their windows systems as well. so it is not like apple would be committing "clonicide" again. it could very well run only on sony computers if they wanted it too. i hate to say it, but if apple were going to strike a deal with another image-conscious company, it seems like sony would be a good match. would also get apple to a much wider audience.

technocoy

[Omad0n]

As some people have already pointed out, it seems like it would be something for the next revision of the Playstation. Thoguh I imagine if that were the case it'd screw over the ability to play all legacy games. So perhaps it is a sign of future high end stuff from sony.

Most likely Sony will start making highend computers around the chips. Probably with a version of Linux/Unix. Those chips are a bit of an overkill for devices like dvd players or even TIVO type devices.

[Goalie_Ca]

What they probably mean ( i haven't rtfa, at work busy...) by hardware reconfiguration is something along the lines of an FPGA device, where there are "programmable fuses" and matrices of logic blocks. They're highly configurable hardware but slower and more expensive than a typical mass volume produced chip. Scientists and engineers have been using them for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA

You would program then in a language like vhdl or verilog.

[Veldek]

There is some interesting information about the PowerPC arch. in the PDFs IBM made available. This is what I gathered from it... In one of the documents it said the 970fx was 1.4-2.0+ GHz. Further down on the same page it said the bus speeds maxed out at 1.1 GHz. Using the present 970fx in production by Apple, does that mean the new 970fx can only get up to 2.2 GHz? That would certainly mean there is not an updated PowerMac using the 970 or 970fx. Which means Apple is waiting on the POWER5 to take off. The document I was referencing is found here:

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54/$file/PPC_QRG_2-22-04.pdf

What do you all think?

They needn't keep the 2:1 multiplier AFAIK. So we could see 3GHz PowerMacs with a 1GHz bus, for example.

[whatever]

Are you sure when they mention " hardware reconfiguration " they're no referring to some type of technology similiar to the T-1000. John Connor isn't getting any younger.

[MacsRgr8]

They needn't keep the 2:1 multiplier AFAIK. So we could see 3GHz PowerMacs with a 1GHz bus, for example.

Well, let's put it this way: I bloody well hope so.....

[iChan]

Sony will be using the IBM chips for the playstation 3.

sony is using a unique custom-made CELL chip so-developed by Sony themselves, IBM and Toshiba.

[scifiman]

Yep, Sony will use it for the PS3 just as M$ is going to use IBM for xBOx 2. Gamecube already uses PowerPCs

Now if somebody could create a code-morpher between the two consoles....hmmm Play xbox only games on PS3 and viceversa, that would be sweet!!! It should be possible I would think since at their core they are the same chip (maybe just same series)

[jyvin]

They needn't keep the 2:1 multiplier AFAIK. So we could see 3GHz PowerMacs with a 1GHz bus, for example.

That may be your opinion but to me, that is one of the great things about the current line up offered by IBM. Also, there is nothing to indicate they would do this. All the 4 of the processors offered by IBM keep the half-the-processor bus speeds. Why would they change? Basically, I think there is no PowerMac updates until IBM produces and supplies the 970 version of the POWER5. Have they even announced they are working on it? I know before Apple introed the G5, we knew the 970 exsisted, right? Will Apple just be dropping POWER5 chips in the PowerMacs? I think there could be a lot of information in the documents IBM provided to indicate the actions Apple could be taking in the coming months.

[dxp4acu]

Maybe Cell that Sony and IBM have been working on is a Power derivative. That was always the rumor, anyway.

And no, Sony did not follow MS to IBM!!! The XBox is following Nintendo and then Sony to it, just as they follow in everything else, but that's another story...

That would be great if Apple could eventually see some benefits of Cell. Of course, not the actual Cell, but IBM will learn a thing or two about multi-processor computing in this.

[Veldek]

That may be your opinion but to me, that is one of the great things about the current line up offered by IBM. Also, there is nothing to indicate they would do this. All the 4 of the processors offered by IBM keep the half-the-processor bus speeds. Why would they change? Basically, I think there is no PowerMac updates until IBM produces and supplies the 970 version of the POWER5. Have they even announced they are working on it? I know before Apple introed the G5, we knew the 970 exsisted, right? Will Apple just be dropping POWER5 chips in the PowerMacs? I think there could be a lot of information in the documents IBM provided to indicate the actions Apple could be taking in the coming months.

Well, it's time someone gets in who really knows, but I'll say what I think to remember: at some processor speed a FSB at half this speed is too fast for the RAM, so that this speed isn't needed anymore and produces nothing but heat. That's when a multiplier like 3:1 is more than enough. More isn't always better... ;)

Edit: And what is it that you want to see? A 2.2GHz PowerMac with 1.1GHz FSB at the top or a 3GHz PM with a 1GHz FSB? Be honest :D

[Eric_Z]

Will Apple just be dropping POWER5 chips in the PowerMacs?

Don't know if this means anyting but...

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-powhist/

PowerPC 900 family
The 64-bit PowerPC 970, a single-core version of the POWER4, can process 200 instructions at once at speeds of up to 2 GHz and beyond -- all while consuming just tens of watts of power. Its low power consumption makes it a favorite with notebooks and other portable applications on the one hand, and with large server and storage farms on the other. Its 64-bit capability and single instruction multiple data (SIMD) unit accelerate computationally intensive workloads such as multimedia and graphics. It is used in Apple desktops, Apple Xserve servers, imaging applications, and -- increasingly -- in networking applications. The Apple Xserve G5 features the first use of the new PowerPC 970FX -- the first chip made using both strained silicon and SoI technologies together, enabling the chip to run at even greater speeds with even less power consumption.

POWER5™
Due out in 2004
Like the POWER3 and POWER4, the POWER5 unifies the POWER and PowerPC architectures. It will feature communications acceleration, chip multiprocessing, and simultaneous multithreading (SMT), for a reported performance gain of between 50 and 100 percent over the POWER4. It will make its appearance in a new line of servers that are code-named "Squadron" and in the teraflop ASCI Purple computer scheduled to be delivered to Lawrence Livermore in the second half of 2004.

[Wyvernspirit]

I can't imagine that Steve would return to allowing a clone industry again. There was Power Computing in the 80's. My only relationship with the company was visiting there booth at MW Boston in 1987. Got a few free t-Shirts. :cool:

Power computing was a mac clone maker in the mid 90's (just before steve came back, as he killed them clones). My guess would be that you visited that booth in 1997 not 87 as power computing wasn't available then.

I remeber going to the Power Computing Booths at MW Boston then last two years it was there. Always giving away prizes. Was sorry when it moved to NY. No way for me to go there.

Just my 2 cents. :)

[jyvin]

Well, it's time someone gets in who really knows, but I'll say what I think to remember: at some processor speed a FSB at half this speed is too fast for the RAM, so that this speed isn't needed anymore and produces nothing but heat. That's when a multiplier like 3:1 is more than enough. More isn't always better... ;)

Edit: And what is it that you want to see? A 2.2GHz PowerMac with 1.1GHz FSB at the top or a 3GHz PM with a 1GHz FSB? Be honest :D

I am not saying it is better, I am just saying it is what it is. There is no evidence that IBM will be doing anything but keep the FSB half of the processor speed. And what I would like to see is another story. 2.2 GHz is not enough at this point. What scares me is that it could be a while before we see an update. Meaning, POWER4 was developed and then came a single-cored processor based on the POWER4 called the 970(fx). Now that we know the 970(fx) is not going past 2-2.2 GHz, that means we are waiting on the on a new processor based on the POWER5 (that has not even been bulk manufactured) to continue on the development of the Power Mac. Or, could Apple just be dropping the POWER5 in a Power Mac? Does this make sense? Opinions?

[Veldek]

I am not saying it is better, I am just saying it is what it is. There is no evidence that IBM will be doing anything but keep the FSB half of the processor speed. And what I would like to see is another story. 2.2 GHz is not enough at this point. What scares me is that it could be a while before we see an update. Meaning, POWER4 was developed and then came a single-cored processor based on the POWER4 called the 970(fx).

Agreed.

Now that we know the 970(fx) is not going past 2-2.2 GHz, that means we are waiting on the on a new processor based on the POWER5 (that has not even been bulk manufactured) to continue on the development of the Power Mac. Or, could Apple just be dropping the POWER5 in a Power Mac? Does this make sense? Opinions?

I'd be interested in opinions about this, too.

[tpjunkie]

What makes you think the 970FX isn't going to go any faster than 2.2 Ghz? I'd expect it to get to at least 2.8 ghz by summer, maybe even the 3.0 that Jobs predicted at the WWDC when the G5s were released. This die shrink to 90 nm just opened the door for more speed increases in the desktop models.

[Jack Reacher]

sony is using a unique custom-made CELL chip so-developed by Sony themselves, IBM and Toshiba.

"The heart of the Playstation3 will be a new chip (or rather chip set) developed by Sony, Toshiba, and IBM. The companies will collectively invest more than $400 million to design a "supercomputer-on-a-chip" for the PS3. The name for this technology is "grid" (formerly called "cell") and appears to be targeted squarely at the possibilities of parallel and distributed computing over the internet."

"IBM expects to begin pilot production of grid (cell) microprocessors and other chips for Sony at its 300mm facility in East Fishkill, NY, during the first half of 2005." (For those of you who haven't made the pilgrimage, East Fishkill is the home of our beloved G5.)

Now reread today's press release:
"Sony today disclosed that it has licensed the Power Architecture from IBM. Sony said Power offers versatility and a unique combination of low power and high performance, making it optimal for a wide range of consumer devices." Sony came to the same realization as Apple and others: IBM's Power technology is the best microprocessor platform.

Why this is good news for the Macintosh.....
IBM has huge plants in the Fishkill and Wappingers Falls area of New York. IBM has the clout to ramp up production to meet demand. This is good news on the long run (higher production = stable supply).

Also, the research/development/production of the cell product will indirectly benefit Mac users. Unlike Motorola (who lost interest), IBM's Power technology has the tiger by the tail (greater interest = faster development).

On a side note......
I wonder if SJ has queried IBM about modifying their Power-based blades to accomodate Apple. I'm sure he envisions a Pixar renderfarm with Apple blades (I know I do)!

[jyvin]

What makes you think the 970FX isn't going to go any faster than 2.2 Ghz? I'd expect it to get to at least 2.8 ghz by summer, maybe even the 3.0 that Jobs predicted at the WWDC when the G5s were released. This die shrink to 90 nm just opened the door for more speed increases in the desktop models.

What makes me think that is this IBM PDF released.

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54/$file/PPC_QRG_2-22-04.pdf

I believe the 970fx was developed for computers like the Xserve, Powerbooks, etc. Computers where cooling is an issue. Power Macs have a lot more room for cooling than Xserves.

[Borg3of5]

I'm confused. Since the Power5 chip will represent a potential 50-100% jump in processor speed, does this imply that Apple will be using the Power5 chips in G6's soon, as in next year or so?

[windowsblowsass]

not that it is at all likely, but sony always has some locked propietary software on their windows systems as well. so it is not like apple would be committing "clonicide" again. it could very well run only on sony computers if they wanted it too. i hate to say it, but if apple were going to strike a deal with another image-conscious company, it seems like sony would be a good match. would also get apple to a much wider audience.

technocoy
true remeber that sony apple alliance thing maybe thisis what their talking about

[jyvin]

true remeber that sony apple alliance thing maybe thisis what their talking about

Just because Sony has IBM develop a PowerPC processor, does not Apple would be getting into bed with Sony. To think so, would be reading way too much into it.

[otter-boy]

I'm confused. Since the Power5 chip will represent a potential 50-100% jump in processor speed, does this imply that Apple will be using the Power5 chips in G6's soon, as in next year or so?

Both IBM and Apple have said that they are developing the next generation chip in tandem. While this does not mean that the chips will come out at the same time, it does mean that they are working to get it out as soon as possible. I wouldn't expect there to be too much of a lag this time, especially since there seems to be a very large demand for these new 900 series PowerPC chips (in Apple comps and IBM's low-end servers).

[jyvin]

I'm confused. Since the Power5 chip will represent a potential 50-100% jump in processor speed, does this imply that Apple will be using the Power5 chips in G6's soon, as in next year or so?

From what I understand the POWER5 is a wicked processor. I don't think it is desktop material. I just hope IBM is currently developing the 970(fx) of the POWER5 and keeping it secret. If not, Apple and users could be upset when they want their 3 GHz Power Mac.

[jyvin]

Both IBM and Apple have said that they are developing the next generation chip in tandem. While this does not mean that the chips will come out at the same time, it does mean that they are working to get it out as soon as possible. I wouldn't expect there to be too much of a lag this time, especially since there seems to be a very large demand for these new 900 series PowerPC chips (in Apple comps and IBM's low-end servers).


When or where did IBM or Apple say that?

[tex210]

What makes me think that is this IBM PDF released.


it also says... "the information contained in this document is provided on an "as is" basis." So take it with a grain.

[jyvin]

All I am saying is the PDF is the only FACTS that say we are or could be above 2.0 GHz.

[daveL]

When or where did IBM or Apple say that?
At WWDC last year, when the G5 was first introduced.

[iLilana]

none of this tech will dribble into apple machines.

[jyvin]

At WWDC last year, when the G5 was first introduced.

Jobs said it would be at 3 GHz in a year... he did not say how it would get there. That is the question of the day. A POWER5 based chip would get the speeds there but the POWER5 has not even been mass produced.

[jocknerd]

good stuff - but I too wonder of the implications for Apple (if there really are any current that need to be addressed) and I'm wondering if there's any mention of scalability of current chips.

and the deal with Sony being a new licensee - does that mean Sony's getting into the server market, or going to be using these chips in desktop models, or am I just misunderstanding?

Probably not. But it will power the next Play Station.

[shahn]

Yes, this is old news. Sony has already leaked the info that PS3 will have IBM PowerPC processors. Interestingly, Microsoft also is using at least three PowerPC chips to power the Xbox 2.

[jettredmont]

"POWER5 will be the "brain" of a new line of powerful computer systems that will be introduced in 2004."

Hmm, one wonders what new line this will be...cough, Apple.


Um, no. ... cough, IBM.

IBM's line of servers utilizing POWER4+ will be replaced by a new line of servers utilizing the POWER5 chip.

Eventually, yes, the POWER5's little brudder will be in Apple's computers, just like the 970[fx] (Power4+'s little brother) is in the G5. But it is about three big manly steps beyond "unlikely" that the POWER5 itself will be in a desktop computer made by Apple or IBM or anyone else.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

This may have already been answered, but you can run YDL, or another PPC linux, on another partion right now, but not sure this is what you meant..

Now, if this means you can switch back and forth, as in fast user switching, running linux and OSX/unix at the same time, now that's an entirely different ballgame! And would be absolutely revolutionary.

But, having YDL and OSX talk to each other while running simultaniously would take software, which I'm sure someone will right (probably YDL).. heck, I'll write it!

Running multiple operating systems? Does that mean I could e.g. run OS X and Linux concurrently?

[Some_Big_Spoon]

Be prepared to be upset.

From what I understand the POWER5 is a wicked processor. I don't think it is desktop material. I just hope IBM is currently developing the 970(fx) of the POWER5 and keeping it secret. If not, Apple and users could be upset when they want their 3 GHz Power Mac.

[hvfsl]

I didn't think they would use the 970fx or anything, the powerpc chip architecture comes in different flavors ... like the chips that xbox and nintendo will use. Which brings up a new point ... PS3

The PS3 is using the Cell chip, it is completely different from PPC. The Cell chip is just being manufactured by IBM. Thats why I said it would most likely be used in a computer.

[Mr Maui]

Jobs said it would be at 3 GHz in a year... he did not say how it would get there. That is the question of the day. A POWER5 based chip would get the speeds there but the POWER5 has not even been mass produced.

That we know of ...

Nobody is talking right now! :)

[Rocketman]

At their POWER press event today, IBM announced (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=GENERIC&newsId=20040331005500&newsLang=en&beanID=928376271&viewID=news_view) a new Power licensee, new customers, and plans for reconfiguring processors.


I find it notable that NOWHERE in this release was Apple mentioned at all.

Rocketman

[roy_dan]

I wish Intel would license IBM’s Power cpu technology. Apple could benefit from higher clock rates, higher yields and lower prices because Intel has far far far higher manufacturing standards (especially over AMD) and volume than any other cpu company. I worked for Intel in Fabs 6, 12 and 22 and speak from experience they are not as aligned with Microsoft as some many think. In many ways I believe Intel feels constrained my M$. Look at how they invested in Be and continue to invest in Linux. You think that makes M$ happy? Its not like Apple has to buy only from IBM! Plus unlike M$, Intel actually innovates and that could be another benifit for the Mac.

[Snowy_River]

MeThinks Apple will not pass the savings on to the consumer. They have found our pricepoint and they mean to soak us dry.

Soak us dry? Uh, don't you mean 'suck us dry'? http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/rolleyes.jpg

[manu chao]

All I am saying is the PDF is the only FACTS that say we are or could be above 2.0 GHz.

In a public presentation at a microprocessor conference in January or February 2004, IBM mentioned that the 970FX consumes less power at 2.5 Ghz than the 970 at 2.0 Ghz, they even quoted precise numbers which I don't remember exactly.

I think this makes it pretty clear that the 970FX can run at up to 2.5 Ghz, although there could (still) be relatively low yields at this speed. But I have never seen a chip manufacturer presenting precise numbers for the power consumption of a chip at a speed at which they did not expected to sell it in the near future.

[jettredmont]

Yes, this is old news. Sony has already leaked the info that PS3 will have IBM PowerPC processors. Interestingly, Microsoft also is using at least three PowerPC chips to power the Xbox 2.

Um, no. IBM says the two deals are distinct. Here's the Yahoo News blurb on the subject:

from http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040331/tech_ibm_3.html

IBM said that Sony had agreed to license the Power architecture from IBM for use in consumer devices. That arrangement is separate from an earlier agreement in which the companies are collaborating on gaming chips.


Consumer devices could mean PCs, but more likely it means standard consumer electronics devices like stereo equipment, TVs, etc.

[jettredmont]

I am not saying it is better, I am just saying it is what it is. There is no evidence that IBM will be doing anything but keep the FSB half of the processor speed.

On the other hand, there is no evidence that IBM is wedded to the 2:1 ratio. Yes, of course if Apple's producing an SC that can keep up with a 1GHz FSB, it doesn't make a lick of sense to instead use a larger multiplier to yield a 667MHz FSB or somesuch. That would just be silly.

Thing is: up to now, there's been no major problem in the way of the 2:1 ratio. On the other hand, we have unofficial but public statements from IBM engineers which indicate that the chip was designed for multiple FSB ratios including 3:1 and 4:1 on top of 2:1.

Your supposition that IBM will see it can't get more than 1.1GHz on the FSB and say, "well, crap! We coulda shipped a set-the-world-afire 970fx running at 3GHz but I'm just too damned busy to flip the switch for that to have a 3:1 FSB ratio!"

IMHO, the one lacking evidence is you. Reason states that IBM will take the appropriate measures to produce a chip that stays on the top of the performance curve, real and percieved.

And what I would like to see is another story. 2.2 GHz is not enough at this point. What scares me is that it could be a while before we see an update. Meaning, POWER4 was developed and then came a single-cored processor based on the POWER4 called the 970(fx). Now that we know the 970(fx) is not going past 2-2.2 GHz, that means we are waiting on the on a new processor based on the POWER5 (that has not even been bulk manufactured) to continue on the development of the Power Mac. Or, could Apple just be dropping the POWER5 in a Power Mac? Does this make sense? Opinions?

Apple will NOT drop a Power5 into a desktop computer. That's just silliness. There's no way. You'd need a climate-controlled room with good ventilation and a bank account with a dozen grand floating around to put a Power5 chip on your desktop, and that doesn't take into account the rest of the computer. Not gonna happen.

[ssamani]

What makes you think the 970FX isn't going to go any faster than 2.2 Ghz? I'd expect it to get to at least 2.8 ghz by summer, maybe even the 3.0 that Jobs predicted at the WWDC when the G5s were released. This die shrink to 90 nm just opened the door for more speed increases in the desktop models.

Its because the PDF says that the FX is limited to a 1.1 GHz Front Side Bus (FSB) and the rather big assumption that the CPU will go in a strict 2:1 ratio to bus speed, i.e., 2.2 GHz. In fact there is no reason to expect this to be the case, to whit:

http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q2/ppc970-interview/ppc970-interview-2.html

I asked a few questions about the bus, like, does the 970 supported more than just a 2:1 (core clock:bus clock) bus ratio.

Peter Sandon(IBM): The processor design itself supports several ratios. The one that Apple announced was a 2:1 ratio. And the processor supports at least 3, 4 and 6 as other ratios.

So basically the 2.2 Ghz limit is pure gumpf guesswork.

Of note:
- Some of the companies licensing the Power Architecture are clearly embedded processor market users, e.g. L3 communications. So IBM is clearly going into big competition with Motorola on this front

- Opening up the architecture to allow partners to add functionality is very akin to ARM's processors (used in the Newton, etc.). Apple had lots of experience of adding functionality to processors through its relationship with ARM, which including significant stock holdings which were sold off to help generate their current cash pile.

- The likelyhood of the POWER5 being used in an Apple product or being dubbed the G6 is very remote. The POWER5 is intended for big iron. As per ArsTechnica's review of the 970 the POWER series sacrifice performance for reliability, so the 9xx series can sometimes outperform their dual core siblings. Unless Apple wants to expand Xserve into some seriously hard core computing, I reckon they will stick with the PPC 900's.

- Those that are concerned about the gap between the POWER4 and the PPC 970 and what that means for a similar POWER5 derivative need not worry. It seems as if the PPC 970 was developed specifically for Apple as quickly as they could, basing it on the POWER4. The plan moving forward was to develop the dual core (POWER5) and single core (PPC 9xx) successors in tandem, as IBM have made clear in the past. Interestingly IBM now refer to the single core as the PPC 900 series.

- Sony clearly plans to use a POWER / PPC derivative in the PS3 along with MS using something similar for the XBox 2. I'd have liked to have seen the p***ed off reaction at Sony when the MS decision was revealed.

- What really surprises me was the complete lack of mention of the PPC 970FX or any plans with the 970 series.

All IMHO, except for the bit about bus speeds and 2.2Ghz, which I am positive is gumpf.

[gekko513]

There is some interesting information about the PowerPC arch. in the PDFs IBM made available. This is what I gathered from it... In one of the documents it said the 970fx was 1.4-2.0+ GHz. Further down on the same page it said the bus speeds maxed out at 1.1 GHz. Using the present 970fx in production by Apple, does that mean the new 970fx can only get up to 2.2 GHz? That would certainly mean there is not an updated PowerMac using the 970 or 970fx. Which means Apple is waiting on the POWER5 to take off. The document I was referencing is found here:

http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/7874C7DA8607C0B287256BF3006FBE54/$file/PPC_QRG_2-22-04.pdf

What do you all think?
It means that Apple will use a 3x multiplier with the PowerMac Updates ... Don't be surprised if you see PowerMacs at 2.4, 2.7 and 3.0 GHz ... and eventually 3.3GHz ... When? I don't know? :)

[stingerman]

It means that Apple will use a 3x multiplier with the PowerMac Updates ... Don't be surprised if you see PowerMacs at 2.4, 2.7 and 3.0 GHz ... and eventually 3.3GHz ... When? I don't know? :)

Actually there is rumor that Apple will move to a 1:1 ratio. The main reason is for SMP systems, allowing each processor to take advantage of their shared caches with very little penalty. On the Power5, IBM already moved t a 1:1 ratio between dual core modules. Of course, on the Power4 the dual core already had 1:1 but 1:2 between dual core modules. It makes sense then that Apple take it to 1:1 eventually. I wouldn't count to much on a marketing brochure. IBM and Apple will not leak such information that way.

However, the memory controller doesn't need that much speed since memory this year will not exceed 1GHz. So Apple can include an on-die memory controller that can handle DDR and DDR2 memory. This way Apple reduces the latency of going through the north bridge and accesses RAM directly (like the Opteron currently does.) It's not that big of a deal for most of the Apps that run on a Mac, since the G5's awesome bandwidth is more important for the professional community. But, it does seem like the next logical evolution and would greatly simplify the North bridge while adding another 10-20% speed boost on heavy memory access apps, like games and database transactions.

[crenz]

My First Post.

It is likely that reconfiguration will occur through some SRAM FPGA type technology.

lilac_wine, thanks for the background information and welcome to MacRumors!

[crenz]

Now, if this means you can switch back and forth, as in fast user switching, running linux and OSX/unix at the same time, now that's an entirely different ballgame! And would be absolutely revolutionary.

I don't think this is gonna end up in a "980" Power5 derivate. Why should Apple focus on such a feature?

I guess it is something similar to the S/390 architecture (also developed by IBM!), where you can have multiple "virtual" machines on one hardware platform (managed by the system architecture, not like Virtual PC that depends on the multitasking features of Mac OS X/Windows). Linux has been running on this platform for quite a while already (http://linux.s390.org/). Using one hardware servers, you can run many different OSes with software servers, for example.

[pimentoLoaf]

And here's a ZDnet (http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5182742.html) commentary on the same story.

[Tommy Wasabi]

At their POWER press event today, IBM announced (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/index.jsp?epi-content=GENERIC&newsId=20040331005500&newsLang=en&beanID=928376271&viewID=news_view) a new Power licensee, new customers, and plans for reconfiguring processors.

- Sony has licensed the Power architecture from IBM
"

Wasn't there a rumour recently that had Jobs and the head guy at Sony meeting? Hmmmmm......

"I call as I see 'em and if I don't see 'em - I make 'em up"

[dstorey]

It seems it is the PowerPC 400 series that sony has licenced. The ZDnet article says Sony has licenced for system on a chip prcoessors ,and another article on that site mentions the 400 series is a system on a chip and the only one they are licencing so far as it makes sense. The 400 series is used in devices such as pdas...so a new Clio based on the 400 series? Is the 400 series the same as the G3?

[frem001]

Apple and sony have been communicting with each other, maybe a cheaper computer with an os x licence ageement. :confused:

[jayb282]

This may have already been answered, but you can run YDL, or another PPC linux, on another partion right now, but not sure this is what you meant..

Now, if this means you can switch back and forth, as in fast user switching, running linux and OSX/unix at the same time, now that's an entirely different ballgame! And would be absolutely revolutionary.


Revolutionary?

You mean like running multiple OS's on x86 using VMWare?

Or multiple instances of the OS concurrently (with full virtualized hardware) like people have been doing on IBM mainframes for 20 years?

You and I have different definitions of 'revolutionary'. Yours seems to mean "doing something everybody else has been doing for a long time".

[squatch]

After doing a little math and guesstimates based on the IBM pdf listed earlier, and the information supplied by everymac.com and Motorola's site, here's my predictions (let me know your thoughts):

New PowerMac G5s (soon) running DUAL PPC970fx at 2.0, 2.2, and 2.5 Ghz (given the info provided at the Semiconductor Forum in Jan or Feb).
PowerMac G6s (using a Power5 derivative 980 chip) intro at WWDC running up to 3.2 Ghz and shipping in August.

New iMac G5s running SINGLE PPC970fx at single 1.4 - 1.8Ghz (since iMac is a consumer level PC, they wouldn't make it run faster than a Powerbook as evident from recent configurations).

New Powerbook G5s (no more G4 speed bumps since PPC7447 and 7457 max out at 1.25-1.33 range) running SINGLE PPC970fx at 1.4 - 2.0 Ghz (since the 970fx consumes only 24.5W at 2.0 Ghz, which is less than the approx. 26.0W the current G4 1.33 Ghz runs at).

New iBook G4s still using PPC7457 chips, but maxing out at 1.25 - 1.33 Mhz.

Not sure what G4 chip the new eMacs (if line still continues) will use, but will probably go up to what the current iMacs are running at, 1.25 Ghz?


Don't think we will see a Hybrid 32/64 bit version of OS X until 10.5, because of the massive conversion of all apps to a 64 bit structure, and also when all of Apple's computers are running at least a G5.

[zot72]

Revolutionary?

You mean like running multiple OS's on x86 using VMWare?

Or multiple instances of the OS concurrently (with full virtualized hardware) like people have been doing on IBM mainframes for 20 years?

VMWare has had a product like this (i.e., no host OS) for a while, and VirtualPC's big brother is supposed to be just about cooked (both intended for server use). That being said, IBM has had this in their products for so long, that I can only hope they have some new stuff (or at least a new cheesy ad about it).

[amyhre]

Someone mentioned that if more of the G5's end up getting out there because of Microsoft or Sony or whoever, the price will go down. This probably true. They were however skeptical about Apple passing on the savings. Since Apple's profit margins are 2% he does have a valid point, they certainly could use the money. (Compare this to Microsoft's 25%. Ouch.) However, since people do take price into account when buying a computer, if Apple can keep good margins and bring the cost down, I doubt they will hesitate. They are at roughly 5% of the market, anything that can work in their favor I expect they would consider.

[Fukui]

Apple and sony have been communicting with each other, maybe a cheaper computer with an os x licence ageement. :confused:
Sony is cheaper than Apple?

[Phinius]

There is some interesting information about the PowerPC arch. in the PDFs IBM made available. This is what I gathered from it... In one of the documents it said the 970fx was 1.4-2.0+ GHz. Further down on the same page it said the bus speeds maxed out at 1.1 GHz. Using the present 970fx in production by Apple, does that mean the new 970fx can only get up to 2.2 GHz? That would certainly mean there is not an updated PowerMac using the 970 or 970fx. Which means Apple is waiting on the POWER5 to take off.

IBM lists the original 970 at a top speed of 1.8 GHz, with up to a 900 MHz bus. It seems the 2 GHz frequency for the 970 in the PowerMac and it's 1 GHz bus are exclusive to Apple, similar to the frequencies that Apple with the G4 that were well beyond the listed 1 Ghz topend speed for the chip on Motorola's website.

I would not be surprised to see Apple using a 3 GHz 970FX, with a 1.5 GHz bus, in the next few months. The effective bus speed would actually be less than 1.5 GHz due to its inherent design, so Apple could potentially keep that bus speed busy by using 667 MHz DDR2 memory that is just recently went into production. Because this memory is now being produced in very low volumes, (due to the X86 chip manufacturers not yet using it) there will be a considerable price premium if Apple does go ahead and use it. Considering the price of the topend PowerMac computers, the additional costs of 667 MHz DDR2 memory would not add substantially to the overall price of the computer. Although the costs for adding memory will come as a sticker shock to many potential purchasers.

[Mr Maui]

Someone mentioned that if more of the G5's end up getting out there because of Microsoft or Sony or whoever, the price will go down. This probably true. They were however skeptical about Apple passing on the savings. Since Apple's profit margins are 2% he does have a valid point, they certainly could use the money. (Compare this to Microsoft's 25%. Ouch.) However, since people do take price into account when buying a computer, if Apple can keep good margins and bring the cost down, I doubt they will hesitate. They are at roughly 5% of the market, anything that can work in their favor I expect they would consider.

Where do you get the information that Apple's profit margins are 2%? And are you referring to hardware or software? I've heard that Apple sells their OS at a loss to move their hardware, but I'm reasonable certain that the margin is above 2%.

[Hattig]

New PowerMac G5s (soon) running DUAL PPC970fx at 2.0, 2.2, and 2.5 Ghz (given the info provided at the Semiconductor Forum in Jan or Feb).

If IBM can't get the bus to run faster than 1.1GHz reliably then the fastest one would be on a 3:1 multiplier, i.e., an 833MHz bus for a 2.5GHz PPC 970.

This would be slower than the 1.1GHz bus on the 2.2GHz model, so Apple might decide to go 3:1 across the line for this upcoming speed bump.

Apple might be risking 1.2GHz bus speeds however for 2.4GHz processors.

So it is either:

2:1 Dual: 2.0, 2.2, 2.4 GHz
3:1 Dual: 1.8, 2.1, 2.4 GHz

As no rumours are putting 970FX's at 2.7GHz at the moment. This could be a pleasant surprise though couldn't it? Dual 2.1, 2.4 and 2.7, with a bump to Dual 3.0 in September without any system modification.

Yeah, I'm assuming that Apple won't care to run the bus at non-hundred-rounded speeds here.

PowerMac G6s (using a Power5 derivative 980 chip) intro at WWDC running up to 3.2 Ghz and shipping in August.


Next year I reckon. Unless IBM really do release POWER5 and the PowerPC 900 equivalent at the same time. Regardless this chip will eat more power because it will be capable of doing a lot more.


New iMac G5s running SINGLE PPC970fx at single 1.4 - 1.8Ghz (since iMac is a consumer level PC, they wouldn't make it run faster than a Powerbook as evident from recent configurations).


I'd hope for this as well, actually 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 GHz I would hope. Why dumb down the iMac speed unnecessarily?

[Gyroscope]

I may be wrong here,but I seem to recall IBM saying that POWER5 unlike POWER4 is designed from ground up to be also used as low-end server, desktop CPU.

[rdowns]

Where do you get the information that Apple's profit margins are 2%? And are you referring to hardware or software? I've heard that Apple sells their OS at a loss to move their hardware, but I'm reasonable certain that the margin is above 2%.

Only place I could say is his a$$. 2%??? Apple enjoys some of the highest, if not the highest, gross margins in the computer industry. Take a look at their latest 10-K filing.

http://www.hoovers.com/free/co/secdoc.xhtml?ipage=2485511&doc=1&num=31

[Phinius]

After doing a little math and guesstimates based on the IBM pdf listed earlier, and the information supplied by everymac.com and Motorola's site, here's my predictions (let me know your thoughts):

New PowerMac G5s (soon) running DUAL PPC970fx at 2.0, 2.2, and 2.5 Ghz (given the info provided at the Semiconductor Forum in Jan or Feb).
PowerMac G6s (using a Power5 derivative 980 chip) intro at WWDC running up to 3.2 Ghz and shipping in August.

The 970fx should easily reach 3 Ghz. The die shrink and IBM adding up to a 20-30% boost in speed with strained silicon gives the 970fx the potential to reach speeds of at least 3 GHz.

Just because IBM does not mention speeds beyond 2.5 GHz for the 970fx does not mean that Apple will not get 3 GHz 970fx chips. Apple may have exclusive rights to use higher chip speeds than what IBM officially lists.

[mdriftmeyer]

It stands to reason Apple with POWER 5 Core chips will modify the design to include an Apple designed AltiVec branch to keep its G5/G6 line in check.

When the Power6 Core chips arrive they'll modify once more with a newer version of AltiVec.

Since neither the POWER 4 or POWER 5 has has AltiVec it stands to reason the parallel development involves Apple augmenting this into their own modified POWER 5+ as has been mentioned prior.

Whatever the FSB ratios to actual clock speed turn out to be I'm sure it will be a competetive compromise between Server Process Scalability and Workstation Number Crunching.

[Phinius]

Only place I could say is his a$$. 2%??? Apple enjoys some of the highest, if not the highest, gross margins in the computer industry. Take a look at their latest 10-K filing.

http://www.hoovers.com/free/co/secdoc.xhtml?ipage=2485511&doc=1&num=31

He stated profit margins, not gross margins. Apple has lost money on sales, minus expenses, for about half of the last 12 fiscal quarters. The company made a profit in some of those quarters off of interest and investments.

[daveL]

Jobs said it would be at 3 GHz in a year... he did not say how it would get there. That is the question of the day. A POWER5 based chip would get the speeds there but the POWER5 has not even been mass produced.
The IBM VP at WWDC laid out the roadmap for the PPC and said that the development of the Power5 and the 97x equivalent would be carried out as a parallel development effort. If you don't care to believe me, that's fine. I was following the event closely at the time and I know what I heard and read. If you search the MR archives, I'm sure you can dig this info up.

[mdriftmeyer]

Or if he still doesn't believe you he can become an ADC Member and download the QuickTime conferences and sift through the session archives.

The IBM VP at WWDC laid out the roadmap for the PPC and said that the development of the Power5 and the 97x equivalent would be carried out as a parallel development effort. If you don't care to believe me, that's fine. I was following the event closely at the time and I know what I heard and read. If you search the MR archives, I'm sure you can dig this info up.

[daveL]

Wasn't there a rumour recently that had Jobs and the head guy at Sony meeting? Hmmmmm......

"I call as I see 'em and if I don't see 'em - I make 'em up"
I believe Steve had his Pixar hat on when that meeting occurred, but who knows...

[Mr Maui]

Only place I could say is his a$$. 2%??? Apple enjoys some of the highest, if not the highest, gross margins in the computer industry. Take a look at their latest 10-K filing.

That's kinda what I was thinking. :D

[Mr Maui]

He stated profit margins, not gross margins. Apple has lost money on sales, minus expenses, for about half of the last 12 fiscal quarters. The company made a profit in some of those quarters off of interest and investments.

Lost money on what exactly? And you're agreeing that their overall net profits are 2%? Please offer some numbers to support these statements. Apple has $6 billion in cash in their portfolio. I find it very hard to believe you get this from 2% net margins. That equates to 300 billion in sales? :confused:

[thogs_cave]

"POWER5 will be the "brain" of a new line of powerful computer systems that will be introduced in 2004."

Hmm, one wonders what new line this will be...cough, Apple.

Not the POWER5. I've heard some noises that will be in a new desktop workstation with killer specs and a very surprising price.

I can't believe I find my self rooting for IBM - in 1984, I *hated* them. Does this mean I'll cheer for Microsoft someday? No, wait - I *used* to like them, so it's O.K.... :D

[joeconvert]

more likely it is for some other device (computer) sony, toshiba, and IBM are developing a new type of process called "cell" where the processors can be linked to others in home electronics, other PS3s, etc, to draw more power. only xBox and Nintendo are using the PPC for their systems so far.

hope that clears things up,
technocoy

yes, it is. Anyone who follows console development knows this. Sony has already previously discussed it.

[squatch]

The 970fx should easily reach 3 Ghz. The die shrink and IBM adding up to a 20-30% boost in speed with strained silicon gives the 970fx the potential to reach speeds of at least 3 GHz.

Just because IBM does not mention speeds beyond 2.5 GHz for the 970fx does not mean that Apple will not get 3 GHz 970fx chips. Apple may have exclusive rights to use higher chip speeds than what IBM officially lists.

True, but I was staying on the conservative side of things. Just looking at the IBM pdf and the typical power consumption rate of a 2.0 Ghz 970fx at 24.5W and a current 1.8 Ghz 970 at 51W, theoretically a single 2.5 Ghz 970fx would be around 50W. I can't imagine them going much beyond 2.7 Ghz safely without encountering overheating problems.

But hey, Apple is the overclocking experts (especially when it came to Motorola chips), so I wouldn't be surprised! :D

[Prom1]

I think most of us are missing something important here. Check it, "licensee". I guess with this, from what I gather, IBM is licensing the technology and the RISC & other technology to other vendors (so to speak) and manufacturers (I'm hoping) to produce PowerPC based products/or Power-based products.

Remember the consortium of Apple, IBM, and motorola (small case name done on purpose for lack of ambition!!) that formed the PowerPC technology??
If such a contract does exist can anyone find out when it expires for a particular (motorola), or all parties??

[Phinius]

True, but I was staying on the conservative side of things. Just looking at the IBM pdf and the typical power consumption rate of a 2.0 Ghz 970fx at 24.5W and a current 1.8 Ghz 970 at 51W, theoretically a single 2.5 Ghz 970fx would be around 50W. I can't imagine them going much beyond 2.7 Ghz safely without encountering overheating problems.

The 970fx at 3 Ghz should not use much more watts than the 2 Ghz 970 that Apple now uses. IBM has implemented some power saving features on the 970fx.

The upcoming 9XX IBM PowerPC processor, that will likely be based largely on the Power5, will raise the power use per Ghz over the 970fx. That's due to a likely larger L2 cache and a feature similiar to Intel's Hyperthreading causing the chip to utilize on average more of the chips resources at any one time.

But don't expect much higher frequency rate on the next 9XX chip after the 970fx, IBM focused on using the available resources more efficiently rather boosting the clock rate.

[gbojim]

Lost money on what exactly? And you're agreeing that their overall net profits are 2%? Please offer some numbers to support these statements. Apple has $6 billion in cash in their portfolio. I find it very hard to believe you get this from 2% net margins. That equates to 300 billion in sales? :confused:

You have to use the numbers correctly if you're going to argue about this. The only info that matters is what is in Apple's 10k filing - you can get a copy in the investor relations page on their site. Look for the Consolidated Statement of Operations.

If you want to know if Apple made money on product, look at gross margin which is sales less cost of sales (not overall cost). In FY2003, that is 27% gross margin from $6.207B in sales less $4.499B cost.

If you include operating costs which is primarily overhead (R&D, admin, etc.) and subtract that from sales as well, you end up with operating income. This does not include other income or expenses such as taxes, investment interest, etc.

But including operating costs can be misleading. In FY2003, Apple suffered an operating loss of $1M. However, that included a one time restructuring charge of $26M. Without that charge, Apple would have had a $25M operating income (profit). It is usually best to ignore one time charges to make a fair assessment.

Also, investment gains contribute to the company as do operating costs. Many organizations use investment gains to gauge the amount of R&D that can be funded.

Bottom line is in FY2003 Apple made $69M net income on $6.207B in sales which translates to 1.1% net profit.

[gekko513]

2:1 Dual: 2.0, 2.2, 2.4 GHz
3:1 Dual: 1.8, 2.1, 2.4 GHz

I'm not sure about 3:1 processors at 1.8 and 2.1 GHz becuase that would mean a system bus of 600 and 700 MHz. Doesn't the PowerMac use dual memory controllers which gives memory throughput of DDR400 x 2 = 800MHz? Maybe this isn't as significant as I think, but if it works the way it looks, this would make the bus a bottleneck.

[Analog Kid]

I would not be surprised to see Apple using a 3 GHz 970FX, with a 1.5 GHz bus, in the next few months. The effective bus speed would actually be less than 1.5 GHz due to its inherent design, so Apple could potentially keep that bus speed busy by using 667 MHz DDR2 memory that is just recently went into production. Because this memory is now being produced in very low volumes, (due to the X86 chip manufacturers not yet using it) there will be a considerable price premium if Apple does go ahead and use it. Considering the price of the topend PowerMac computers, the additional costs of 667 MHz DDR2 memory would not add substantially to the overall price of the computer. Although the costs for adding memory will come as a sticker shock to many potential purchasers.
I'm expecting to see DDR2 in the next Powerbooks and probably the next desktops. The power savings seems to play into Apple's strategy quite well...

Yeah, there will probably be a bit of sticker shock at first but that will be short term. The main reason for the higher prices is volumes. Apple has done this before with less central technologies-- AirPort for example.

DRAM manufacturers are pushing this pretty hard-- this is where they want to go. Apple tends to move most quickly on trends that seem inevitable. PC makers wait until the market is established. To some extent, putting the technology into a Mac helps to establish the market.

[Analog Kid]

Someone mentioned that if more of the G5's end up getting out there because of Microsoft or Sony or whoever, the price will go down. This probably true. They were however skeptical about Apple passing on the savings. Since Apple's profit margins are 2% he does have a valid point, they certainly could use the money. (Compare this to Microsoft's 25%. Ouch.) However, since people do take price into account when buying a computer, if Apple can keep good margins and bring the cost down, I doubt they will hesitate. They are at roughly 5% of the market, anything that can work in their favor I expect they would consider.
Lower prices on the processor means tens of dollars. This isn't going to make an appreciable difference to either the market price of the machine or to the margins Apple sees.

I'd guess the main cost difference in an Apple computer is in their custom system chips and their enclosures. Neither can benefit from wider adoption because they can't be more widely adopted...

[Analog Kid]

I think most of us are missing something important here. Check it, "licensee". I guess with this, from what I gather, IBM is licensing the technology and the RISC & other technology to other vendors (so to speak) and manufacturers (I'm hoping) to produce PowerPC based products/or Power-based products.
From what I read in IBM's press release this is their key point. They're opening the architecture and trying to push it into the mainstream. They're trying to address everything from the embedded market to high end servers with the same instruction set and companies that use it will have a "scalable" option that shows more breadth than Intel or ARM.

Mostly it amounts to a public statement that they're not dumping their own CPUs for Itanium or Opteron. A policy statement to quell possible confusion from they tendency to keep a finger in every pie.

There's very little in this event for us-- other than the fact that IBM is standing firmly behind POWER and the architecture isn't going away anytime soon... That in itself is good news, but doesn't mean anything for Apple users other than that they won't be switching to Intel/AMD.

The reconfigurable processing blurb might be an oblique reference to Cell or their Xilinx partnerships, but most likely it was just a blue sky reference from R&D. This was the "we're still working on cool stuff" plug to wrap up a talk about how advanced their current line is.

All-in-all a positive event for IBM. They've got an alternative architecture that is seeing broad acceptance, and they're giving Intel a run for their money in all markets from Itanium to XScale. Not much in there for us though...

[AngryAngel]

For the person that asked: no, the PPC 400 Series in not the G3- which is the 700 series (750, etc.). There is not a 700 series 'system on a chip' (yet?). If what you read was true about Sony buying a licence for a 'system on a chip', it makes sense that it will go into a PDA, phone or other consumer device.

An IBM person has stated that the 970 is capable of several bus multipliers:

"Peter Sandon: The processor design itself supports several ratios. The one that Apple announced was a 2:1 ratio. And the processor supports at least 3, 4 and 6 as other ratios."

From <a href="http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q2/ppc970-interview/ppc970-interview-2.html">Ars Technica</a>

Apple will not license their OS ever again- so Sony will not be making Mac-compatibles.

[QuiteSure]

If both Sony and MS are using an IBM chip in their new gaming consoles, can Nintendo be far behind?

And if so, can we look forward to a new Zelda game??

THAT would be exciting!

[TMay]

For the person that asked: no, the PPC 400 Series in not the G3- which is the 700 series (750, etc.). There is not a 700 series 'system on a chip' (yet?). If what you read was true about Sony buying a licence for a 'system on a chip', it makes sense that it will go into a PDA, phone or other consumer device.


I've often wondered why Apple hasn't taken the 400 series and run with it for Xcode compatible consumer products (OSX Lite). I think that Developers would eat this up, but maybe its not that important in basically closed devices.

[Analog Kid]

I've often wondered why Apple hasn't taken the 400 series and run with it for Xcode compatible consumer products (OSX Lite). I think that Developers would eat this up, but maybe its not that important in basically closed devices.

Making OS X available for consumer products is just begging for someone to make a very large desktop consumer product... Not good.

They could do this for Darwin though. Linux has been finding its way into consumer products, no reason another open source OS couldn't. It would mean a change of focus though-- Apple still sees itself as a hardware company even if some of its greatest assets are in software...

To address the second part of your question: embedded developers consider development tools to be a critical decision criteria. They expect support with the tools though, so Apple would have to set up a support infrastructure for embedded development...

[szark]

If both Sony and MS are using an IBM chip in their new gaming consoles, can Nintendo be far behind?

Actually, they're very far ahead as the current GameCube uses a PowerPC processor. ;)

[Phinius]

Motorola recently stated in a internal document that the company plans to double the frequency of the G4 about every 18 months. The 7447 G4 was introduced late in January of 2003 with a maximum listed frequency of 1 GHz. That puts a doubling of frequency to 2 GHz, and it should arrive by the end of July 2004, if the plan stays on track.

Motorola has also mentioned plans to make a dual-core G4 at .10-microns, that will have a onboard controller and DDR-2 capability. That chip was evidently given the ok for production last year. A Motorola document mentioned that it would average 25 watts of power use running at 1.5 GHz. Compare that to IBM's stated 50 watts power use for a 2.5 GHz 970fx processor. It could well be that this upcoming dual-core G4 running at 2 GHz might use about 35 watts. That should put it's performance for small enclosures well above what the 970fx can manage.

I would not be surprised to see Apple using this dual-core G4 in all iBooks AND possibly the PowerBooks, along with the iMac and eMac. The advantages are a much higher performance per power use compared to the 970fx and it could possibly be cheaper for Apple to impliment in a notebook computer. It would not need a more expensive dual-channel memory board as is used in the G5 Power Macs and it's on board controller would also reduce costs, while uping performance. Perhaps there could also be a new xServe produced with two of these chips, which would be four processors in a 1U server. Although the desire of Mac users for a G5 PowerBook, and Apple wanting to differentiate the product lines, would more point toward the possbility of a G5 PowerBook, rather than a dual-processor G4 PowerBook.

Apple has stated that a dual-2 Ghz G5 PowerMac performs about 60% faster than a dual-1.42 GHz G4. Steve Jobs also stated IBM promised a 3 GHz 970 in a years time, which would effectively be a 50% frequency boost over the maximum 2 GHz available now. A 2 GHz dual-G4 would be about a 41% jump in frequency over the 1.42 GHz G4. Considering that this dual-G4 will have a on-board memory controller, with much faster bus and memory, it should narrow the G4 performance gap with the 970. In a small enclosed space it should far exceed what's possible in speed with the 970.

[Analog Kid]

Motorola recently stated in a internal document that the company plans to double the frequency of the G4 about every 18 months. The 7447 G4 was introduced late in January of 2003 with a maximum listed frequency of 1 GHz. That puts a doubling of frequency to 2 GHz, and it should arrive by the end of July 2004, if the plan stays on track.

Motorola has also mentioned plans to make a dual-core G4 at .10-microns, that will have a onboard controller and DDR-2 capability. That chip was evidently given the ok for production last year. A Motorola document mentioned that it would average 25 watts of power use running at 1.5 GHz. Compare that to IBM's stated 50 watts power use for a 2.5 GHz 970fx processor. It could well be that this upcoming dual-core G4 running at 2 GHz might use about 35 watts. That should put it's performance for small enclosures well above what the 970fx can manage.

I would not be surprised to see Apple using this dual-core G4 in all iBooks AND possibly the PowerBooks, along with the iMac and eMac. The advantages are a much higher performance per power use compared to the 970fx and it could possibly be cheaper for Apple to impliment in a notebook computer. It would not need a more expensive dual-channel memory board as is used in the G5 Power Macs and it's on board controller would also reduce costs, while uping performance. Perhaps there could also be a new xServe produced with two of these chips, which would be four processors in a 1U server. Although the desire of Mac users for a G5 PowerBook, and Apple wanting to differentiate the product lines, would more point toward the possbility of a G5 PowerBook, rather than a dual-processor G4 PowerBook.

Apple has stated that a dual-2 Ghz G5 PowerMac performs about 60% faster than a dual-1.42 GHz G4. Steve Jobs also stated IBM promised a 3 GHz 970 in a years time, which would effectively be a 50% frequency boost over the maximum 2 GHz available now. A 2 GHz dual-G4 would be about a 41% jump in frequency over the 1.42 GHz G4. Considering that this dual-G4 will have a on-board memory controller, with much faster bus and memory, it should narrow the G4 performance gap with the 970. In a small enclosed space it should far exceed what's possible in speed with the 970.
I guess this is a bit off topic, but since the thread seems to have died otherwise...

I'd like to see this dual-core G4 come out if it exists-- I think it would give Apple a lot more flexibility in their products and would make a great laptop processor.

Then there's the whole Motorola wildcard... Doesn't the PPC fall under the Freescale spin off?

The only mention I've seen of the dual core G4 was a few mentions on The Register that never seemed to amount to anything. Have you seen it mentioned elsewhere? Has Mot said anything about it officially? I'd love to find more details...

Twice the CPUs, twice the Altivec, half the power... It sounds nice. I've got mixed feelings about Mot as a supplier though and it's hard to tell if this would amount to the laptop of the future or a sand trap.

I am worried about Apple trying to shoehorn a G5 into a Powerbook. I'm not convinced it's the right thing to do but without a chip such as the one you're describing I don't know if they have a choice.

Judging from the posts I've seen in these forums, there's at least a vocal minority that seems to want a G5PB even if that means performance at or below what a G4 could offer and reduced battery life. It's not usually put that way, but when looking at the compromises people are suggesting it is what it amounts to... I'm curious to see how Apple works this-- do they give people what they think they want, or what they need.

[Phinius]

Doesn't the PPC fall under the Freescale spin off?

The only mention I've seen of the dual core G4 was a few mentions on The Register that never seemed to amount to anything. Have you seen it mentioned elsewhere? Has Mot said anything about it officially? I'd love to find more details..



Motorola made a presentation that mentions the dual-core G4 at their Smart Networks Developer Forum held in June 2003 at Disneyland Paris (Motorola also posted PDF file on their website from the presention listing the dual-core G4, which the company has subsequently removed from their website. Perhaps partially because of an Apple objection to it being displayed).

Here's the link (unfortunately registration is required to view the article):

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=42928

Notice that in the presentation Motorola mentions 'process and architecture improvements' that will bring the PowerPC above 3GHz. That would likely come in the next chip model right after the dual-core since another process would only move the existing G4 architecture from 2 GHz to about 2.6 GHz. A jump to 3 GHz is simply to great a leap from a process shrink without some significant chip architecture improvements. So it seems that speed improvements to the current G4 architecture will come to an end when the dual-core comes out (again probably around July of this year).

Concerning the use of a G5 in the Powerbook...

Apple could use the 970fx in a PowerBook up to a maximum of about 2 GHz, since it uses about 25 watts according to IBM. However, the next version of 9XX chip ,which will be based on the Power5, will almost certainly use more watts than the 970fx at the same frequency. That's due to IBM adding simultaneous multitasking, which is similar to Intel's Hyperthreading. That leaves Apple with using the 970fx in the PowerBook in the next few months and waiting about a year after that for a process shrink to arrive in order to increase the speed of the PowerBooks, or else IBM is working on a PowerPC chip that would suit Apple's notebook use more ideally. Another PowerPC chip in the works by IBM for Apple is purported to be the case according to a recent report from another rumour site.

Motorola is expected to make the Freescale spin off of the chip division in the summer, and yes, the PPC G4 would be part of that. However, that should not stop or delay the dual-core G4 from being produced.

[Analog Kid]

Motorola made a presentation that mentions the dual-core G4 at their Smart Networks Developer Forum held in June 2003 at Disneyland Paris (Motorola also posted PDF file on their website from the presention listing the dual-core G4, which the company has subsequently removed from their website. Perhaps partially because of an Apple objection to it being displayed).

Here's the link (unfortunately registration is required to view the article):

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=42928

Notice that in the presentation Motorola mentions 'process and architecture improvements' that will bring the PowerPC above 3GHz. That would likely come in the next chip model right after the dual-core since another process would only move the existing G4 architecture from 2 GHz to about 2.6 GHz. A jump to 3 GHz is simply to great a leap from a process shrink without some significant chip architecture improvements. So it seems that speed improvements to the current G4 architecture will come to an end when the dual-core comes out (again probably around July of this year).

Concerning the use of a G5 in the Powerbook...

Apple could use the 970fx in a PowerBook up to a maximum of about 2 GHz, since it uses about 25 watts according to IBM. However, the next version of 9XX chip ,which will be based on the Power5, will almost certainly use more watts than the 970fx at the same frequency. That's due to IBM adding simultaneous multitasking, which is similar to Intel's Hyperthreading. That leaves Apple with using the 970fx in the PowerBook in the next few months and waiting about a year after that for a process shrink to arrive in order to increase the speed of the PowerBooks, or else IBM is working on a PowerPC chip that would suit Apple's notebook use more ideally. Another PowerPC chip in the works by IBM for Apple is purported to be the case according to a recent report from another rumour site.

Motorola is expected to make the Freescale spin off of the chip division in the summer, and yes, the PPC G4 would be part of that. However, that should not stop or delay the dual-core G4 from being produced.

Well, hopefully is wasn't taken down because the program was scratched...

Thanks for the link-- a bit short on details but it certainly helps confirm that this chip has been talked about.

Just working from memory here, but I think the 25W is about twice what the current G4s pull. Add the power of the rest of the system to that and I think we're looking at a pretty hot machine...

I'd really like to see the portable and desktop lines run on different architectures optimized for their respective purposes, and a new G4 might be just the ticket for that.

[Phinius]

Just working from memory here, but I think the 25W is about twice what the current G4s pull. Add the power of the rest of the system to that and I think we're looking at a pretty hot machine...

I'd really like to see the portable and desktop lines run on different architectures optimized for their respective purposes, and a new G4 might be just the ticket for that.

Your right, the 1.33 GHz 7447 G4 that is used in the PowerBook burns an average of 18.3 watts. Which means that the upcoming dual-processor G4, using 25 watts, would be about 37% more than the highest average use of any PowerBook now. It would be more impressive for potential buyers to use a single G4 at 2 GHz in a PowerBook or iBook and leave the dual-processors for desktop computers. That way the portables would have a high GHz number and yet a low power use.

Unless IBM comes up with a processor design geared toward notebook use, it looks like the embedded processors, such as the G4, will be much more practical for portable use than the G5 series. Yet since the demand for a G5 Powerbook is overwhelming it's very likely that Apple will put them in the PowerBooks very shortly and leave the G4s for the iBooks. That could limit the topend frequency that the iBooks would use even though they would have a different processor design. Having a 1.5 GHz 970 in the topend PowerBooks and a 2 GHz G4 in the iBooks would probably not be something Apple would try.

[aswitcher]

SNIP

Yet since the demand for a G5 Powerbook is overwhelming it's very likely that Apple will put them in the PowerBooks very shortly and leave the G4s for the iBooks. That could limit the topend frequency that the iBooks would use even though they would have a different processor design. Having a 1.5 GHz 970 in the topend PowerBooks and a 2 GHz G4 in the iBooks would probably not be something Apple would try.

I tend to agree...