PowerMac Delays [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

wannaPM

Apr 7, 2004, 08:20 AM

One month ago I sold my dear G4/933 to buy a dual G5, but my honest reseller (luckily here we don't have Apple Stores here) told me: "it's better to wait, the new models should be out by the end of march" ... and my long waiting started :( , reading every day all of the Mac rumors sites.
I don't believe the 970FX cooling issue is true because Apple already started shipping the Xserve G5, with the same CPU in a much smaller case, and the now contradicted graphic card delay sounds odd to me, considering that Apple (and eventually ATI) had more than 9 months to decide which card they should mount on the G5 revB and to produce many pieces of them.
Today I checked the PM G5 avalaibility for the two Apple distributors here in Italy and each of them still has about 40 1.6 GHz, 120 dual 1.8 and 80 dual 2.0, with some few dozens still to come. At the actual selling rate they should last about 2-3 weeks.
My thought is that Apple is simply waiting to empty its stock while making more money now than before by selling us (or at least trying to sell) the revA G5 at the same price they sold it 9 months ago; if the new models should be announced now the old ones shall have a significant price rebate, with a consequent money loss for Apple. Probably they are also assembling plenty of revB G5s just now, to be able to ship them as soon as they are announced avoiding the usual and hated "shipping in 4-6-8-10 weeks".
I also think that they can't directly jump from the actual 2 GHz to 3 GHz because of at least the following matters:
- they never did such a speed bump before, probably because a similar thing could arise many technical problems
- the Xserve just started shipping with a 2 GHz clock, hence they can't sell a "desktop" that is almost 50% faster than the top server
- it would not be correct at all for the customers to sell a 3.0 GHz model at the same price a 2.0 GHz had few days before (but maybe Apple doesn't take much care of what is correct for its customers :mad: )
Moreover, they can't mount on all of the revB models a dual processor because they need at least a "entry level" G5, and until the iMac G5 is out they will leave the low revB model with a single CPU
Nevertheless Apple usually updates each product line every 6-7 months and the last PM update was almost 10 months ago (except the dual 1.8 on november) hence I think that Apple must announce in the next weeks some new models will be out (something to extensively test the new 970FX and "prepare" it for the 3.0 GHz bump, like single 2.0, dual 2.2, dual 2.4), bigger disks (120-250 GB), more memory (512MB - 1GB) and better graphic cards, but the real bang will be at WWDC, where they could announce the PB G5 "The first 64bit notebook" (while Asus already ships a notebook mounting the AMD's 64 bit chip :eek: ) a G5 equipped iMac "The first 64 bit soccer ball" and the 3.0 GHz PowerMacs "More bit power", many of them to be shipped on september (after all the summer ends in september, so Jobs could mantain what he promised last year).
C'mon Apple, at least tell us when the new G5s are to be announced!

dieselg4

Apr 7, 2004, 08:23 AM

Is there anybody from Apple scheduled to speak? Just thinkging out loud . . .

garybooberry

Apr 7, 2004, 08:35 AM

*yawn*

B!nej

Apr 7, 2004, 08:40 AM

No-one's going to tell you when, because people will wait longer for a set date than they will for an undefined one. Businesses have gone under by giving customers a reason to wait longer before buying. The apple dealer doesn't know any more than you do, he's just reading the rumor sites like everyone else.

I ordered a current dual 1.8 last monday, because I know that even if new models are announced tomorrow, I won't see _mine_ arrive in Australia for months, so I'd rather have a very fast computer today than a very very fast one two or three months or more from now.

My view on these "rumors" of cooling problems is that it's what someone has suggested as possibility (because everyone knows fast computers are hot) and others have now reported as "rumor", which people here will translate into "fact". It's amazing that Apple can produce machines *twice* as fast as their previous line, then can't sell them because suddenly people are deciding that's not a big enough jump and they want another one! (The G5 I am buying should work out more than four times faster than my current eMac, easily.)

Of course, I will be avoiding all rumor sites, online apple stores and computing news sites for three months after mine arrives, just to be be safe. ;)

oingoboingo

Apr 7, 2004, 08:43 AM

Since the Xserve G5 was delayed for a while after the initial announcement, I wonder if the availability of the new 90nm PowerPC 970 processors might be the holdup, rather than cooling issues. Given that the current generation of G5s seem to have no problem with quiet cooling, and the 90nm PowerPC 970 chips should run cooler than the 130nm versions, I can't see how cooling would be an issue. We should remember that the PowerPC 970 produces much less heat than comparable Pentium 4 and AMD chips...which run happily week in, week out, in systems which much cruder cooling systems than the PowerMac G5. Sure, the G5 runs warm, but it's not the scorching nuclear furnace that people make it out to be. The elaborate cooling system of the G5 PowerMac is like that to keep thing cool and QUIET.

Or I could be talking out my arse. Regardless, this isn't good news. Those 1st generation G5 PowerMacs were announced a long time ago. And I'm sure I'm not alone here, but I know of more than one person who is holding out on a PowerMac purchase until Rev B comes along.

fussball

Apr 7, 2004, 08:43 AM

this is getting old... that's all I can say.

whooleytoo

Apr 7, 2004, 08:44 AM

I like Macosrumors.com's line better: delays due to massive secretive government orders. It sounds a bit far-fetched.. but at least it means G5 powerbooks tomorrow! :)

applekid

Apr 7, 2004, 08:46 AM

Alright, I'll say I have a little optimism of G5s coming "soon." But, let's say they were to come in the next month, how would this affect the release of the third-gen G5s that will most likely feature the 3 GHz (or more) machines? Is Apple going to make a September-ish release like last year?

I still suspect a graphics card problem. People are reporting problems when gaming with their G5s in the gaming section of the forum. Of course, it just might be a failure in the cooling system as the rumor states. Sorta sucks if that's the problem. That isn't exactly fixable for the current G5s if they are suffering unless Apple does a repair program of sorts.

oingoboingo

Apr 7, 2004, 08:53 AM

It's amazing that Apple can produce machines *twice* as fast as their previous line, then can't sell them because suddenly people are deciding that's not a big enough jump and they want another one! (The G5 I am buying should work out more than four times faster than my current eMac, easily.)

The G5 might be four times as fast as your eMac, but you are comparing the very bottom of Apple's desktop range to the very top. The differences between the superceded top-range dual 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac towers and the G5 lineup may not be sufficient enough to convince many users to ditch a relatively expensive, and a relatively new 9 to 18 month old investment. People often leap-frog generations when they upgrade, and I imagine there are a lot of dual 1GHz, 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac owners out there waiting to see the Rev. B G5 PowerMac appear before they make the jump.

srobert

Apr 7, 2004, 08:54 AM

Why do I get the feeling that the words "Too little, Too late." will be the keywords of the next apple products announcement? I'd really like to be proven wrong. The more they wait and the less appealing a dual 2.4 G5 will look. (Compared to the competition at least)

Spagolli94

Apr 7, 2004, 08:55 AM

freddiecable

Apr 7, 2004, 08:56 AM

from appleinsider:

After confirming the most recent wave of delays, sources provided AppleInsider with an updated time-frame for Power Mac revisions. Due to the sensitivity of the subject, AppleInsider will refrain from publishing these details until they can be confirmed. However, it should be noted that a number of larger Apple resellers have received a significant shipment of the current Power Mac G5 offerings over the past week.

I want to see that "updated time-frame" :cool:

srobert

Apr 7, 2004, 09:01 AM

I agree... If they are going to stick to their promise of 3Ghz within a year, there just doesn't seem to be time to have a bump in between now and then. Who would buy that update, knowing that in ony 3 months, another update is supposedly "guaranteed?" I think it is becoming pretty obvious that they are just going to wait to do one big update, so I guess that means we will have to wait until June.

Hmmm... maybe Apple switched their business model to one the like of the "Car Industry". From now on, we'll have one update a year, in 2 or 3 flavors: The PMac G5 2005, PMac G5 2005 GT, PMac G5 2006, PMac G5 2006 GT, etc... :-) Maybe we'll be able to ad tons of extras... or maybe they'll put more standard features.

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 09:04 AM

I agree... If they are going to stick to their promise of 3Ghz within a year, there just doesn't seem to be time to have a bump in between now and then. Who would buy that update, knowing that in ony 3 months, another update is supposedly "guaranteed?" I think it is becoming pretty obvious that they are just going to wait to do one big update, so I guess that means we will have to wait until June.
It sure seems that way to me on the PowerMac update front to me also. I wonder if we'll see the long-rumored 8x (or possibly 16x) SuperDrives in these new models. I'm also wondering if the case design will change any from the Rev. A G5, since I'm sure several members here would like to add a second internal optical drive and/or more internal hard drives. As I have said in earlier posts, I'm not in the market for a G5 right now. I am interested in what comes out between now and when I replace my iMac, since its replacement will most likely be a PowerMac.

B!nej

Apr 7, 2004, 09:05 AM

The G5 might be four times as fast as your eMac, but you are comparing the very bottom of Apple's desktop range to the very top. (...)

You're right, but I was actually thinking about all the QuickSilver & Sawtooth G4 owners - I see a lot more of them around than I see MDDs. I wouldn't think most MDD dual 1.25 and 1.42 owners would be in the market for a new Mac for another few months yet, but I guess there could be a bunch of late G4 owners champing at the bit for a brushed metal finish... ? :)

Sabenth

Apr 7, 2004, 09:17 AM

without sounding like an idiot we just have to wait and see its awaiting game :)

Photorun

Apr 7, 2004, 09:25 AM

If only these forums had didn't have anti swearing filters, I'd really like to say aloud where Jobs can stick that 3 GHz promise about now. This is some really exquisite bulls*** Apple is doing... big time.

agreenster

Apr 7, 2004, 09:27 AM

wdlove

Apr 7, 2004, 09:30 AM

Why? What's so special about WWDC? If the product is being delayed due to production problems, it suggests Apple is waiting until they have actual product ready to ship before they announce it. If that's the case, why would they wait until WWDC? I think this news means if they have it ready April 25, they'll announce it April 26.

It is definitely fun to speculate. I'm confident that Steve will release the Power Mac Rev. B when it is ready. Like others it looks like WWDC, if it's a major upgrade I would want to announce it in person also. If they announce Steve will be at NAB, then we will know that something will be announced.

It is interesting that you picked April 26th, it's a Monday. The biggest thing that happens on April 26th is my B-Day. :) :cool: :o

nextgenmac

Apr 7, 2004, 09:31 AM

so Im new to all of this, but doesn't it seem crazy that apple would waste time with an update to the G4 powerbook? As somebody said, the new processor runs cooler than before, and surely apple has been working on this for a couple of years...at least since development started on the G5 powermac. I cant imagine upgrades to the G4 line of processor at least, maybe the dvd burner, graphics, hard drive and some sort of third wireless card (t-mobile or ATT), or maybe a screen update....all with a good price drop. Otherwise if it stays the same price it seems they are just kinda stalling. Cant wait for the G5 powerbook.....no deadline for me.

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 09:34 AM

...some sort of third wireless card (t-mobile or ATT)...
Huh? What are you referring to here? I don't understand how mobile phone wireless (if that's what this is) would be of any use to Mac owners, regardless of what Mac they own. Please explain.

365

Apr 7, 2004, 09:36 AM

nextgenmac

Apr 7, 2004, 09:37 AM

Huh? What are you referring to here? I don't understand how mobile phone wireless (if that's what this is) would be of any use to Mac owners, regardless of what Mac they own. Please explain.

The wireless internet networks set up by verizon, att, and t-mobile....mainly in airports and large metro areas. T-mobile is $40 a month for unlimited access and its pretty decent speed. You can get an internal anntenna now, or still use the pci card.

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 09:40 AM

The wireless internet networks set up by verizon, att, and t-mobile....mainly in airports and large metro areas. T-mobile is $40 a month for unlimited access and its pretty decent speed. You can get an internal anntenna now, or still use the pci card.
Okay, so you're saying adding this capability would give Powerbook users greater wireless network access? In that case, that change would be a GOOD thing. The questions I have are: Will the phone companies let Apple do this, and will Mac users with these cards get charged extra for using the service?

wannaPM

Apr 7, 2004, 09:42 AM

The wireless internet networks set up by verizon, att, and t-mobile....mainly in airports and large metro areas. T-mobile is $40 a month for unlimited access and its pretty decent speed. You can get an internal anntenna now, or still use the pci card.

What about the still good Airport cards? Why should we need a new wireless card in our Powerbooks, given that (almost here in Europe) we can access to the public wireless networks with an Airport card?

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 09:43 AM

Apple should take a leaf out of the Intel based manufacturers book and release small incremental cpu upgrades frequently, that way the jump in performance is so insignificant that it makes waiting for the latest and greatest model pointless. Apple and in particular Steve Jobs seem to have this crazy desire for media attention, every release of every model has to be a MASSIVE media event and this is bad for everyone other than Steve Jobs who gets to be Mr Charisma for a couple of hours and his "way'd go" brigade who whoop him throughout.

The real issue for me isn't that Apple haven't released a new machine recently, it's that they are still charging the same price for something that is seven months old and likely to superseded for something significantly faster at the the same price point. Reduce the price and they can have my cash but don't take me for a mug.
Don't forget that Apple can't directly control when speedbumps and other updates are released - that schedule is partially dictated by IBM and Motorola (and any other companies making PowerPC chips). What Apple can control directly is what other components and software are included with the Mac besides the processor. Without the processor, though, Apple can't release updates. It's as simple as that.

wdlove

Apr 7, 2004, 09:46 AM

The wireless internet networks set up by verizon, att, and t-mobile....mainly in airports and large metro areas. T-mobile is $40 a month for unlimited access and its pretty decent speed. You can get an internal anntenna now, or still use the pci card.

What kind of speed are they offering with this service? Is this just for the PowerBook or is it also for the Power Mac?

Nny

Apr 7, 2004, 09:47 AM

OK, so Steve said 3 GHz within a year.... whether that is June or September seems up to debate still. He did not said Dual 3 GHz. Remember when Dual 450, 500, & 533 were the big boys and then Apple went back to single processors again. This could be a big letdown if he went back to a single 3 GHz. Alternatively, he could get us all really mad by breaking the deal with IBM, taking the 1.5 GHz G4, and using two of those and calling it "3 GHz." Just kidding folks...

All kidding aside though, I have the money for a new G5 and I am just waiting for a Dual 3 GHz with a decent video card (9800 XT 256 MB preferred) and some more storage (Dell is shipping 400 GB HDs in their configs now). What other features/improvements would you guys like to see?

I honestly think it's too late for an announcement of a speed bump before WWDC now. So I am just going to wait patiently (eye twitching uncontrollably) and spend the time painting the wall (You see!! It changes color when it dries! It never stays! I have to keep the wall wet!).

shadowself

Apr 7, 2004, 09:48 AM

tibor

Apr 7, 2004, 09:52 AM

Hmmm... maybe Apple switched their business model to one the like of the "Car Industry". From now on, we'll have one update a year, in 2 or 3 flavors

I hate to say it, but that really does seem to be where Apple is headed. Anyone else notice how updates have really fallen off, across most product lines?

The last "updates" to the PM and imac weren't really what I'd consider an update - dropping the single 1.8 and using a dual 1.8 instead, with no other changes for the PM. The imac just had a larger screen size added - again, no new features other than that.

The last "update" for ipods bumped up the low-end pod to 15 gb from 10 gb. No other changes. They introduced a new product, but that's not the same as updating an existing line.

Even the last powerbook revisions for the 12 and the 17 were fairly minimal. Yes, they finally brought the 15 on board with the new design. Emac saw a price drop, but no new features. Let's not even talk about displays.

The only really significant revisions to the line lately were bumping ibooks to G4s and the xserves to G5s.

C'mon Apple, I'm waiting to give you money for a faster powermac.

-d

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 09:56 AM

I hate to say it, but that really does seem to be where Apple is headed. Anyone else notice how updates have really fallen off, across most product lines?

The last "updates" to the PM and imac weren't really what I'd consider an update - dropping the single 1.8 and using a dual 1.8 instead, with no other changes for the PM. The imac just had a larger screen size added - again, no new features other than that.

The last "update" for ipods bumped up the low-end pod to 15 gb from 10 gb. No other changes. They introduced a new product, but that's not the same as updating an existing line.

Even the last powerbook revisions for the 12 and the 17 were fairly minimal. Yes, they finally brought the 15 on board with the new design. Emac saw a price drop, but no new features. Let's not even talk about displays.

The only really significant revisions to the line lately were bumping ibooks to G4s and the xserves to G5s.

C'mon Apple, I'm waiting to give you money for a faster powermac.

-d
I have to wonder why Apple is moving to a 1-year update cycle, too. If they are, in fact, changing their update cycle permanently, I'll be disappointed but happy at the same time. Confused? I shall explain. I'm disappointed that we won't be seeing great new technology from Apple every 6 months, but I'll be happy because whatever Mac I buy won't be updated as soon as it used to be, so I can brag about my Mac longer :D

365

Apr 7, 2004, 09:59 AM

Don't forget that Apple can't directly control when speedbumps and other updates are released - that schedule is partially dictated by IBM and Motorola (and any other companies making PowerPC chips). What Apple can control directly is what other components and software are included with the Mac besides the processor. Without the processor, though, Apple can't release updates. It's as simple as that.

But the general concensus is that IBM can supply the CPU's, this latest rumor suggests cooling problems.. The thing is it's rumor after rumor after rumor, Apple should stop being so egocentric and start publishing a road map, I couldn't care less about Expo's and media events and all the fanfare that goes with it, I just want to buy a new computer that represents value for money. I don't want to be part of Steve Jobs' ego trip, he should start a fan club and have Steve Fests if he wants adulation.

I think that it's a sad reflection on Apple that there are so many rumor sites dedicated to them and that these sites are some of the most popular on the internet and they are full of either negative or zealotish comments, where's the normality.

snahabed

Apr 7, 2004, 10:02 AM

klaus

Apr 7, 2004, 10:02 AM

They may be swithching to a yearly update cycle, but not for its entire computer linup.

They simply cannot afford to wait 1 year to release a new Pro line, or at least an updated one. 1 year is a hell of a long time in pro land, lots of evolutions.

If it is going to be like that, I sure as hell don't understand their product managers..

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 10:04 AM

But the general concensus is that IBM can supply the CPU's, this latest rumor suggests cooling problems.. The thing is it's rumor after rumor after rumor, Apple should stop being so egocentric and start publishing a road map, I couldn't care less about Expo's and media events and all the fanfare that goes with it, I just want to by a new computer that represents value for money. I don't want to be part of Steve Jobs' ego trip, he should start a fan club and have Steve Fests if he wants adulation.

I think that it's a sad reflection on Apple that there are so many rumor sites dedicated to them and that these sites are some of the most popular on the internet and they are full of negative or zealotish comments.
Apple has always been secretive - I believe that it's just part of their culture. I like the rumor sites - although it's hard to know definitively when products will be updated, the speculation is usually more exciting than the updates themselves, unless I'm in the market to buy one.

AidenShaw

Apr 7, 2004, 10:08 AM

...because Apple already started shipping the Xserve G5, with the same CPU in a much smaller case...

Note that only single CPU Xserves are shipping - with duals promised for "April".

The Apple store lists 5-7 weeks est ship time for any Xserve.

This doesn't sound like proof that there aren't any issues with the Xserve chipset or perhaps PPC970fx availability.

I doubt cooling is an issue for the Xserve - machine room servers have lots of fans and don't worry about noise. (IBM's putting dual 3.2 GHz Xeons (and dual 1.6 GHz PPC970s) in the blades, which are just over an inch thick.)

Something's wrong, even with the Xserve rollout.

numediaman

Apr 7, 2004, 10:17 AM

Note that only single CPU Xserves are shipping - with duals promised for "April".

The Apple store lists 5-7 weeks est ship time for any Xserve.

This doesn't sound like proof that there aren't any issues with the Xserve chipset or perhaps PPC970fx availability.

I doubt cooling is an issue for the Xserve - machine room servers have lots of fans and don't worry about noise. (IBM's putting dual 3.2 GHz Xeons (and dual 1.6 GHz PPC970s) in the blades, which are just over an inch thick.)

Something's wrong, even with the Xserve rollout.

You are right -- it looks like a "dual" issue. (Some sites also say the power supply continues to be a problem, as well.)

I think the only people obsessed with SJ's supposed 3.0 promise are people on rumor boards. 3.0 is just a number. I'd certainly settle for regular updates -- in fact, the configurations rumored on the French site looks just fine with me!

If we would to get regular updates, no one would talk about 3.0 because you would know we'd get ther eventually. It's this lack of updates that causes doubts.

wdlove

Apr 7, 2004, 10:38 AM

I've said this before in these forums and I still see absolutely no reason to change my position.

However, what I expect is 3 GHz PowerMacs shipping in quantity no later than 21 September 2004 and 2 GHz PowerBooks shipping in quantity no later than 28 February 2005. If Apple does not make these two deadlines then Apple will have a very difficult time in the popular press and an even more difficult time with the fence sitters who might buy Macs or something else.

Is there a significance to these deadlines? Although I do see that it's a Tuesday, at least September. In this case, if Steve announces at the end of June that will be al almost three month lag time. Will the major revision such as a new cooling system cause concern enough to hold off on a purchase?

DrGruv1

Apr 7, 2004, 10:44 AM

The G5 might be four times as fast as your eMac, but you are comparing the very bottom of Apple's desktop range to the very top. The differences between the superceded top-range dual 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac towers and the G5 lineup may not be sufficient enough to convince many users to ditch a relatively expensive, and a relatively new 9 to 18 month old investment. People often leap-frog generations when they upgrade, and I imagine there are a lot of dual 1GHz, 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac owners out there waiting to see the Rev. B G5 PowerMac appear before they make the jump.

I've been waitting for the 3.0 dual 976's Dualcore AKA g6 extreme - but will probably trigger and buy the rev. b or go the powerlogix dual 7457 upgrade... waitting to see how much the rev. b are and will decide either to get the powerlogix until the 3.0's or will buy the rev. b

cost/performance will make the decision
dual 7457 are about $750 and the Pioneer DVR-107 are $106

yoavcs

Apr 7, 2004, 10:53 AM

The article forgot to mention one other Apple event - the 14th financial call.
I'm still hoping they announe something on the 13th to have stuff to talk about on the 14th...

Anyway, I'm a Wintel (XP and Linux) user looking to switch to Macs. Been following the various rumor sites since Panther was release (that's what got me interested in Macs).

I'm in no hurry to switch and am waiting for new machines to come out first (the PowerBook 15" looks real sweet to me).

Still it is amusing (and frustrating) following these forums and rumors. Come on Apple, I've got the cash to switch - give me the reason.

SiliconAddict

Apr 7, 2004, 10:54 AM

What about the still good Airport cards? Why should we need a new wireless card in our Powerbooks, given that (almost here in Europe) we can access to the public wireless networks with an Airport card?

I'm not getting what nextgenmac is talking about. If we are talking about the various CDMA networks out there and accessing them on the go then airport (e.g. 802.11B/G) would still remain in the laptop since its different tech but since nextgenmac stated "airports and large metro areas" It sound like Access Points that are setup in common locations such as airports, Borders book stores, B&N, Starbucks, etc. In which case the tech offered is airport based (again e.g. 802.11b/g) :confused:

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 10:54 AM

I've been waitting for the 3.0 dual 976's Dualcore AKA g6 extreme - but will probably trigger and buy the rev. b or go the powerlogix dual 7457 upgrade... waitting to see how much the rev. b are and will decide either to get the powerlogix until the 3.0's or will buy the rev. b

cost/performance will make the decision
dual 7457 are about $750 and the Pioneer DVR-107 are $106
I highly doubt, given IBM's roadmap, that the PPC 976 will debut at 3 GHz or anytime soon. I think we'll see PPC 976 in Macs in 2005 or 2006 and starting at around 3.5 GHz. I would expect, given this news about IBM and the PowerPC 970, for an interim update in April with the PowerPC 970 fx and the Rev. C to appear in September with PowerPC 975 at around 3.0 GHz.

GigaWire

Apr 7, 2004, 10:57 AM

Why do these "delay" rumors about PowerMacs keep getting posted? There is no delay. There was no intention on Apple's part to upgrade until they went 3 GHz. There is no need to. None at all.

DrGruv1

Apr 7, 2004, 11:06 AM

I highly doubt, given IBM's roadmap, that the PPC 976 will debut at 3 GHz or anytime soon. I think we'll see PPC 976 in Macs in 2005 or 2006 and starting at around 3.5 GHz. I would expect, given this news about IBM and the PowerPC 970, for an interim update in April with the PowerPC 970 fx and the Rev. C to appear in September with PowerPC 975 at around 3.0 GHz.

The rev. b will be the 970fx, but i hope that we will leap frog to the 975's!

(didn't steve say that within a year they would be at 3.0ghz?)

I feel the G6 will be the 3ghz 975 and the G6 Extreme will be the dual 976's
(hopefully)

Chip Chart Link
http://www.bayarea.net/~kins/AboutMe/CPUs.html

-mike

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 11:09 AM

The rev. b will be the 970fx, but i hope that we will leap frog to the 975's!

(didn't steve say that within a year they would be at 3.0ghz?)

I feel the G6 will be the 3ghz 975 and the G6 Extreme will be the dual 976's
(hopefully)

Chip Chart Link
http://www.bayarea.net/~kins/AboutMe/CPUs.html

-mike
I agree with the chip sequence; I don't agree with the naming of the PPC 975 the G6. I would think Apple would do what they did with the G4 and call the PPC 975 and PPC 976 enhanced G5s, saving the G6 moniker for the PPC 980 or 990.

Petro

Apr 7, 2004, 11:13 AM

I've said this before in these forums and I still see absolutely no reason to change my position.

The problem is not the 970FX. IBM has been shipping the 2GHz version in quantity since December. IBM's official story is they have been shipping the 2.2GHz and 2.4GHz versions since December, but not in quantity until January/February. It is now April. IF Apple does not have access to sufficient stock of 2.0-2.4 GHz (and possibly screened-up 2.6GHz chips just as they had to do with the G4s) then Apple never will.

Everyone (myself included) keeps forgetting that Apple designs many of the chips between the CPUs and everything else on the motherboard. Doing new designs for all of these chips is a non-trivial task. Excellent examples of how these chips can delay full system introductions can be seen in all the times Intel has had to announce delays due to the slip in the start of volume production of the versions of these chips it uses with its own CPUs.

Certainly Apple has had to do redesigns on these chips to up clock rates, lower power requirements, etc. Also it is logical to assume (though maybe not accurate) that Apple is getting IBM to fab some of these new versions on the 90nm process lines too. This throws an additional wrinkle into the design requirements.

I am absolutely certain Apple (and those fabbing the chips for Apple -- IBM and others) will work everything out. It will just take longer than Apple -- or any of us -- would like.

Bottom line for me? I would love to see 3+ GHz PowerMacs shipping this summer and 2+ GHz PowerBooks shipping in quantity by mid November.

However, what I expect is 3 GHz PowerMacs shipping in quantity no later than 21 September 2004 and 2 GHz PowerBooks shipping in quantity no later than 28 February 2005. If Apple does not make these two deadlines then Apple will have a very difficult time in the popular press and an even more difficult time with the fence sitters who might buy Macs or something else.

Like a lot of you, I am also waiting for the new G5 Powerbook due whenever, because that will mean a drop in price on 2nd hand machines on eBay, so I can then get a 15" G4 for 25% less than they are now. My spin on the delays are a factor of a few issues. 1. Even if they are ready, current stocks have to drop to acceptable levels for Apple to take a hit on price, 2. Historically, Apple wait for some event for their release (maximises impact and free coverage, Apple is a marketing company after all), 3. I think there may be some truth in the MOSR line of secret large US govt orders (maybe they are the ones soaking up all those 2.2 - 2.6Ghz CPU's). My reckoning on this third point is that the Virginia Tech exercise surprised the market and at $5 million it is a CHEAP supercomputer that has Unix underpinings.
Can I wait, you bet (I am using a PB5300ce bought in 1996, yeah I'm cheap and proof you can get a 8 year cycle out of a Mac)
Apple will do it when they are ready, they have the worlds attention to see just how good these new ones are going to be, they will want to make the most of it. Also me thinks that dual core stuff is within 12 - 16 months away--- WWDC 2005???? Then I'll buy a Dual 2.0 G5 from eBay

365

Apr 7, 2004, 11:14 AM

Why do these "delay" rumors about PowerMacs keep getting posted? There is no delay. There was no intention on Apple's part to upgrade until they went 3 GHz. There is no need to. None at all.

Do you honestly think that 2GHz to 3Ghz in one jump is acceptable?

crees!

Apr 7, 2004, 11:16 AM

The next updates will be at WWDC. Till then everyone stop getting your panties in a wad after every rumor heard on this.

shadowself

Apr 7, 2004, 11:20 AM

Will the major revision such as a new cooling system cause concern enough to hold off on a purchase?

I don't believe concern over a new cooling system should delay any purchases. Apple has tried, used and evolved cooling systems in Macs since the beginning. Apple's first nightmare was with the squirrel cage fans in the SEs. They were horribly noisy compared to the silent Mac Plus and earlier machines. However, compared with today's machines -- and especially the notoriously noisy later generation G4 machines -- they were very quiet.

Apple has been investigating many forms of cooling, from peltier coolers to high thermal conductivity composites (some better than copper) to heat pipes to active liquid cooling systems. Apple will introduce what is most cost effective once it has evolved far enough. The current darling in the rumor mills is active liquid cooling probably because it would be the most dramatic change for Macs. I don't expect Apple to ship active liquid cooling systems in anything other than PowerMacs, ever -- and maybe never.

Liquid cooling is not new. Supers have used it for years -- some like Crays and CDCs even flooded the entire bays with Freon (most big systems just funnel the liquid through piping as heat sinks to the boards and backplanes). If I remember correctly Seymor Cray had more cooling patents than any other type. Cooling has always been a paramount issue.

This is one of the primary reasons I believe the "delays" (if people want to call them that) are because of the glue chips and getting them into volume production. Faster and lower power CPUs are great, but they are only a fraction of the story. The glue chips need to be able to keep up, but they can't be power hogs and huge heat sources either.

ImAlwaysRight

Apr 7, 2004, 11:23 AM

If they are going to stick to their promise of 3Ghz within a year, there just doesn't seem to be time to have a bump in between now and then. Who would buy that update, knowing that in ony 3 months, another update is supposedly "guaranteed?" I think it is becoming pretty obvious that they are just going to wait to do one big update, so I guess that means we will have to wait until June.
I think in your optimism you fail the see the reality of the situation. Apple is NOT going to jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0GHz. No matter how much you dream, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Next step is 2.4-2.6 GHz, then, after some time, 3.0GHz. Yeah, it would have been nice to see a 2.5GHz-ish update by now, but there is obviously some good reason as to why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, Apple wants an update to come out as bad as you do, because an update to them means more $,$$$,$$$.

In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase. :D

And if you want/need a new Power Mac G5 now but have not yet purchased, you need to wait until the next revision. You cannot make a more foolish decision than to buy right before an updated model is to come out. In 2 weeks you can have more for less money. Of course, sometimes that 2 weeks turns into 2+ months (some of you thought PM G5 updates would happen in January), so, you take a gamble waiting, but the alternative is to buy a new Power Mac now and have it outdated in one week, and then you'll know what buyer's remorse is all about.

When you think about it, Apple coming out with updated 2.4GHz G5 now in April is just past mid-way for coming out with 3.0GHz in Sept. 2004. Apple *could* have announced 2.4GHz in January and started shipping now in April. But with speed bumps, Apple typically bumps and has them available same day, with no pre-announcement. Apple only pre-annouces new products/major revisions, like the introduction of the Power Mac G5.

As for 3.0GHz G5 Power Macs, Steve will have to say something about 3.0GHz G5 at WWDC, but I can guarantee you it will not be shipping in June. Sorry. :( I know many of you will consider it a broken promise if Steve ships 3.0GHz G5 AFTER August 21, 2004, the date Apple annouced dual 2.0 G5's "now shipping," but I am in the camp that cuts Steve some slack and don't take him so literal but rather feel he was indicating the timeframe when they would "about" be ready. Assuming Apple ships 2.4 GHz G5 in April 2004 and can ship 3.0GHz G5 by Oct. 2004, I think Apple is doing well with sticking to timely upgrades.

Petro

Apr 7, 2004, 11:29 AM

Liquid cooling is not new. Supers have used it for years -- some like Crays and CDCs even flooded the entire bays with Freon (most big systems just funnel the liquid through piping as heat sinks to the boards and backplanes). If I remember correctly Seymor Cray had more cooling patents than any other type. Cooling has always been a paramount issue.

I am off subject I know, I visited Cupertino in 1990 and had a tour of Apple's Cray. Do they still have it or any other new Cray or such other beast? They told us at the time that 50% of its time was used for modelling the thermoplastic flows for their cases.

rmac1979

Apr 7, 2004, 11:33 AM

I also think that they can't directly jump from the actual 2 GHz to 3 GHz because of at least the following matters:
- they never did such a speed bump before, probably because a similar thing could arise many technical problems
- the Xserve just started shipping with a 2 GHz clock, hence they can't sell a "desktop" that is almost 50% faster than the top server
- it would not be correct at all for the customers to sell a 3.0 GHz model at the same price a 2.0 GHz had few days before (but maybe Apple doesn't take much care of what is correct for its customers :mad: )

A direct jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0 Ghz would be large. Then again, the jump from 1.4 to 2.0 was about this large percentage-wise.

When the G4 PowerMac came out, it was out a long time before being updated. Same with the first Powerbook G4s. It seems that a change in processor families and/or design means a longer wait before the next update. I am always surprised at how many people seem to forget this when they talk about waiting for Rev. B machines... Maybe it was wishful thinking that the longer delays between A and B was before the fault of Motorola. :)

It HAS been weird that nothing new has been announced in the past 3 months. Maybe Apple wants to be as unpredictable as possible. For example, they might be hoping that this totally shatters the advice of not getting things at Christmas time because updates are probably just around the corner at MacWorld...

&RU

Apr 7, 2004, 11:35 AM

If the current batch of rumors are correct, then Apple is waiting for current model stock to deplete while they ramp up production on the new models -- which means that they can start shipping the day of the announcement. I can dig it.

As suggested, the alternative is they are designing/building/waiting for better components, or making more room in the case for expansion in the case, or tending to cooling issues... If they are taking their time to get it right -- I can dig it.

Prompt delivery and/or a trouble free product are worth waiting for.

Petro

Apr 7, 2004, 11:35 AM

And if you want/need a new Power Mac G5 now but have not yet purchased, you need to wait until the next revision. You cannot make a more foolish decision than to buy right before an updated model is to come out. In 2 weeks you can have more for less money. Of course, sometimes that 2 weeks turns into 2+ months (some of you thought PM G5 updates would happen in January), so, you take a gamble waiting, but the alternative is to buy a new Power Mac now and have it outdated in one week, and then you'll know what buyer's remorse is all about.

Bravo, you are so spot on. Act in haste and repent in leisure

eric67

Apr 7, 2004, 11:37 AM

croquer.free.fr reports :
"new PMG5 will be :
M9042LL/A
Dual 2.2 Ghz
512MB PC 3200 DDR
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
160GB Serial ATA
3 64Bit PCI slots, 1 133Mhz, 2@ 100Mhz

M9490LL/A
Dual 2.4 Ghz
1GB PC 3200 DDR
Pioneer DVR-A07 superdrive
ATI Radeon 9800XT
250GB Serial ATA
3 267Mhz PCI-X slots backward compatible with PCI-X 1.0

M9496LL/A
Dual 2.6 Ghz
1GB PC 3200 DDR
Pioneer DVR-A07 superdrive
ATI RAdeon 9800XT
250 GB Serial ATA
3 267MHz PCI-X slots backward compatible with PCI-X 1.0"

now regarding the delay, this rumor site reports 3 reasons, but discloses only 2 :
- indeed a 2 weeks delay was due to ATI for not delivering graphic cards fast enough
- the absence of Xserve G5 Dual is simply due to a special consumer who is currently buying all the produced units : American government agencies have decided to avoid having sensitive data on windows-based server, and have decided to go for a plan extending till June 2005, and to acquire 80,000 Xserve G5 and PMG5.
- the delay was also due to a pure logistic problem, internal to Apple, and Greg Joswiak might have some problem to keep his position of hardware manager in the future..."

OK that's it, I will keep posting if there is updated info.

GigaWire

Apr 7, 2004, 11:41 AM

Do you honestly think that 2GHz to 3Ghz in one jump is acceptable?

Within a year? More than acceptable. The only complaint I would have id that the price of the current line up should have gone down by a few hundred dollars. other than that, 1 GHz jumps per year in the PowerMac line is fine by me. We're not struggling with G4's here anymore.

the future

Apr 7, 2004, 11:53 AM

I think in your optimism you fail the see the reality of the situation. Apple is NOT going to jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0GHz. No matter how much you dream, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Next step is 2.4-2.6 GHz, then, after some time, 3.0GHz. Yeah, it would have been nice to see a 2.5GHz-ish update by now, but there is obviously some good reason as to why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, Apple wants an update to come out as bad as you do, because an update to them means more $,$$$,$$$.

In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase. :D

And if you want/need a new Power Mac G5 now but have not yet purchased, you need to wait until the next revision. You cannot make a more foolish decision than to buy right before an updated model is to come out. In 2 weeks you can have more for less money. Of course, sometimes that 2 weeks turns into 2+ months (some of you thought PM G5 updates would happen in January), so, you take a gamble waiting, but the alternative is to buy a new Power Mac now and have it outdated in one week, and then you'll know what buyer's remorse is all about.

When you think about it, Apple coming out with updated 2.4GHz G5 now in April is just past mid-way for coming out with 3.0GHz in Sept. 2004. Apple *could* have announced 2.4GHz in January and started shipping now in April. But with speed bumps, Apple typically bumps and has them available same day, with no pre-announcement. Apple only pre-annouces new products/major revisions, like the introduction of the Power Mac G5.

As for 3.0GHz G5 Power Macs, Steve will have to say something about 3.0GHz G5 at WWDC, but I can guarantee you it will not be shipping in June. Sorry. :( I know many of you will consider it a broken promise if Steve ships 3.0GHz G5 AFTER August 21, 2004, the date Apple annouced dual 2.0 G5's "now shipping," but I am in the camp that cuts Steve some slack and don't take him so literal but rather feel he was indicating the timeframe when they would "about" be ready. Assuming Apple ships 2.4 GHz G5 in April 2004 and can ship 3.0GHz G5 by Oct. 2004, I think Apple is doing well with sticking to timely upgrades.

If someone skipped reading this long post, read it now. It's the voice of reason. :)

Petro

Apr 7, 2004, 11:56 AM

wrldwzrd89

Apr 7, 2004, 11:57 AM

I think in your optimism you fail the see the reality of the situation. Apple is NOT going to jump from 2.0 GHz to 3.0GHz. No matter how much you dream, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Next step is 2.4-2.6 GHz, then, after some time, 3.0GHz. Yeah, it would have been nice to see a 2.5GHz-ish update by now, but there is obviously some good reason as to why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, Apple wants an update to come out as bad as you do, because an update to them means more $,$$$,$$$.

In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase.

And if you want/need a new Power Mac G5 now but have not yet purchased, you need to wait until the next revision. You cannot make a more foolish decision than to buy right before an updated model is to come out. In 2 weeks you can have more for less money. Of course, sometimes that 2 weeks turns into 2+ months (some of you thought PM G5 updates would happen in January), so, you take a gamble waiting, but the alternative is to buy a new Power Mac now and have it outdated in one week, and then you'll know what buyer's remorse is all about.

When you think about it, Apple coming out with updated 2.4GHz G5 now in April is just past mid-way for coming out with 3.0GHz in Sept. 2004. Apple *could* have announced 2.4GHz in January and started shipping now in April. But with speed bumps, Apple typically bumps and has them available same day, with no pre-announcement. Apple only pre-annouces new products/major revisions, like the introduction of the Power Mac G5.

As for 3.0GHz G5 Power Macs, Steve will have to say something about 3.0GHz G5 at WWDC, but I can guarantee you it will not be shipping in June. Sorry. I know many of you will consider it a broken promise if Steve ships 3.0GHz G5 AFTER August 21, 2004, the date Apple annouced dual 2.0 G5's "now shipping," but I am in the camp that cuts Steve some slack and don't take him so literal but rather feel he was indicating the timeframe when they would "about" be ready. Assuming Apple ships 2.4 GHz G5 in April 2004 and can ship 3.0GHz G5 by Oct. 2004, I think Apple is doing well with sticking to timely upgrades.
If someone skipped reading this long post, read it now. It's the voice of reason. :)
I couldn't agree more. Great post, ImAlwaysRight! :cool:

agreenster

Apr 7, 2004, 12:16 PM

365

Apr 7, 2004, 12:27 PM

Within a year? More than acceptable. The only complaint I would have id that the price of the current line up should have gone down by a few hundred dollars. other than that, 1 GHz jumps per year in the PowerMac line is fine by me. We're not struggling with G4's here anymore.

:D well you're easily pleased then, to be honest once I get my hands on a new G5 I couldn't care less if they only update every three years, I'm just getting desperate for a new machine. I've been using a 500mhz G3 iBook since December when I sold my dual G4 "wind-tunnel" ready for the January updates :o I even bought a HP Pentium 4 PC a few weeks back to put me on until the G5's arrived. It was faster ( and cheaper ) than any Mac I've ever owned but what can I say about XP.. anyway that lasted about 7 days before it went on eBay now I just want price reductions or upgrades, is it too much to ask.. I'm even telling myself that the PC wasn't that bad and find myself visiting hp.co.uk :eek:

nextgenmac

Apr 7, 2004, 12:55 PM

jade

Apr 7, 2004, 01:04 PM

A year between Powermac upgrades is rediculous.

And if it takes a year to get powermac updates it better be 3ghz..because no one will wait a year for 2.5...they will just wait longer for the 3ghz that was promised.

swissmann

Apr 7, 2004, 01:12 PM

How far away is the 1 year mark to the promised 3GHz. It seems to me that we are getting close. If these new rumored machines come in at around 2.5 GHz and we are relatively close to the promised 3 GHz who would really buy now and not wait for that much more power? I know a lot of people didn't buy a G5 because rev B was only a few months away in January 2004. Well if these same people had known that April would come without an update how many of them would have purchased a G5 instead of waiting? I debated the issue and realized that the extra speed the dual 2 G5 offered over my dual 1 G4s would pay for itself in one video project I saw no reason to wait. With many video projects under it's belt the G5 has definitely earned its keep.

My prediction - 3 GHz G5 one year from the G5 introduction and nothing in-between.

I don't know what I would do now if I was still waiting. I'd either hold out a bit longer for 3 GHz or buy a refurbished Dual 2 G5 for $2,400 from the apple store now.

Freg3000

Apr 7, 2004, 01:13 PM

- the absence of Xserve G5 Dual is simply due to a special consumer who is currently buying all the produced units : American government agencies have decided to avoid having sensitive data on windows-based server, and have decided to go for a plan extending till June 2005, and to acquire 80,000 Xserve G5 and PMG5.

AppleInsider refutes this completely:

Meanwhile, Power Mac G5 revision specs, model numbers and rumored US government purchases touted elsewhere on the Web are completely false and fabricated, very reliable sources told AppleInsider. However, these reports are being fabricated by an individual and not the publications they appear on.

I don't believe it myself, although it would be nice.

Edit: Stupid me. :p

jadedchameleon

Apr 7, 2004, 01:21 PM

check this out....this is just verizons version of the wireless network. Dell is putting the chips in their new computers for a cost of like $45.

http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/mobileoptions/broadband/index.jsp?action=broadbandAccess

You're confused. Dell offers regular 802.11g (like apple) for $45. They do offer a GPRS card with an AT&T contract for about $150. Frankly, this is a terrible deal because you can get a faster card (EDGE) from AT&T directly for free with a 2-yr contract.

Verizon has a card that works in Macs. The driver is available here:
http://ramp.ucsd.edu/~bellardo/darwin/airprime/

Zaty

Apr 7, 2004, 01:33 PM

I wonder if the PPC 970 maxes out at 2.0 GHz or if PMs being built right have underclocked cpus. If IBM were able to produce 2+ GHz PPC 970 in quantities, why did Apple not speed bump PMs? My guess is there are two possible reasons:

-The PM design might not be capable of keeping cool 970's running at more than 2 GHz.

-Unlike PC makers Apple does usually not just put in cpus that have slightly faster clock speed than their predecessors. So they just wanted to keep one line up. But it would be foolish not to upgrade the current machines if for what ever reason the next major update is still months away.

My guess still is we'll see Rev. B at WWDC. But I'm afraid they won't hit 3 GHz until then. If we're lucky, 3 GHz PMs will be announced at MWSF along with PB G5 and iMac G5. That would be an interesting keynote, though.

:)

Multimedia

Apr 7, 2004, 01:51 PM

Well, if its true that the 18th is the release date for the new G5's, then they'd better have them ready to ship. Im not holding my breath though.

At this point though, I might as well wait until WWDC to get a dual 3ghz....but after the track record this year, I wouldnt be suprised if they miss that goal as well. How upsetting would THAT be? Talk about empty promises.

Although, I could see Apple's website in mid-April saying,

"Summer Comes Early in 2004"

and release the dual 3ghz'ers early and suprise everyone...

And then I wake up
Apple Has No Track Record Of Ever Meeting Any Promised Deadlines.

Why do you think the dual 3 GHz G5 will come out before San Francisco MacWorld 2005? I certainly don't. That date would be in keeping with Apple's usual delay in fulfillment of any promised shipping date.

I feel certain the NAB Event April 18 will be the Rev. B G5 announcement. That's about 8 months since the original g5 shipping time. As to when they will really ship - anybody's guess. This gives Apple only 8 months 'til SF MacWorld 2005. That is the realistic date to expect the dual 3 GHz G5 PowerMacs to ship - not this year.

Apr 7, 2004, 01:57 PM

You're right, but I was actually thinking about all the QuickSilver & Sawtooth G4 owners - I see a lot more of them around than I see MDDs. I wouldn't think most MDD dual 1.25 and 1.42 owners would be in the market for a new Mac for another few months yet, but I guess there could be a bunch of late G4 owners champing at the bit for a brushed metal finish... ? :)

... me for example ... dual 450 mhz powermac ... and even i have to do my business on this machine i won't buy a g5 rev.a ... so long, i get two new and fast internal 120 gb ide hds from hitachi for my good old pm ... off-topic: anybody made experiences with internal ide raid configurations?
.a

numediaman

Apr 7, 2004, 01:59 PM

While I agree that it was smart of those who bought G5s a while ago instead of waiting -- I disagree with part of this:

In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase.

No flaws?:
1) Power Supplies -- for audio pros, the power supply is still a major problem. The best solution so far has been to go to Radio Shack to buy a Ground Loop Isolator. A number of people believe that fixing this issue is the one big item that is delaying the rev. b G5 announcement.
2) Graphic Cards -- the black screen of death is probably the single worst flaw I've seen in a Powermac. People who live in colder climates have been known pull out hairdryers to warm up their Macs before booting up in the morning. New cards seem to have solved the issue. (Another issue has been poorly seated cards in new units. easily fixed, but annoying nonetheless)
3) Huge fan noise -- many problems, many solutions including logic board replacement
4) Random sleeping caused by "Thermal Runaway" - in other words, the machine is too hot
5) DOA G5s -- a normal occurance, but certainly annoying if you are the one to buy the computer, open up the box only to find it won't boot up -- or do anything.

The first generation G5 is certainly a vast improvement in speed. But it is also a rev. a machine -- which I why I won't buy one. My Apple 2e, Performa 630, and PowerMac 8600 are still functioning today. But my Titanium PowerBook G4, and the new G5s, are not built to same level of quality control. I'm waiting until rev. b to buy a G5 -- simple as that.

Multimedia

Apr 7, 2004, 02:05 PM

The next updates will be at WWDC. Till then everyone stop getting your panties in a wad after every rumor heard on this.Next Updates Will Be April 18 At The NAB Event - Not WWDC. Perhaps next G4 PowerBooks at WWDC. I don't see G5 PowerBooks until 2005.

Zaty

Apr 7, 2004, 02:13 PM

Next Updates Will Be April 18 At The NAB Event - Not WWDC. Perhaps next G4 PowerBooks at WWDC. I don't see G5 PowerBooks until 2005.

I don't think NAB is the right place to announce a speed bumped PM revision. Either they release the PMs silently or at WWDC. PBs will come out before WWDC, I'd say sometime later this month.

Mr Maui

Apr 7, 2004, 02:24 PM

Mr Maui

Apr 7, 2004, 02:29 PM

Apple should take a leaf out of the Intel based manufacturers book and release small incremental cpu upgrades frequently, that way the jump in performance is so insignificant that it makes waiting for the latest and greatest model pointless. Apple and in particular Steve Jobs seem to have this crazy desire for media attention, every release of every model has to be a MASSIVE media event and this is bad for everyone other than Steve Jobs who gets to be Mr Charisma for a couple of hours and his "way'd go" brigade who whoop him throughout.

The real issue for me isn't that Apple haven't released a new machine recently, it's that they are still charging the same price for something that is seven months old and likely to superseded for something significantly faster at the the same price point. Reduce the price and they can have my cash but don't take me for a mug.

Steve NEEDS media attention. After all, on $1 per year (*gag*), he deserves SOMETHING!! :D

Mr Maui

Apr 7, 2004, 02:33 PM

I am one of those people waiting for a Rev B G5.

It IS peculiar that NOTHING has been updated. I swear I think they are just sitting on their iPod sales. It would be UNWISE, methinks, to bank the company on the iPod, because sooner or later, that market may saturate.

I cannot imagine them waiting until WWDC to announce G5 updates? OK, I can imagine it, but it seems messed up!

I believe Apple will update EVERYTHING at once in a HUGE 20th Anniversary Celebratory BASH at WWDC! Seems like the one big thing to celebrate (since nothing else has happened this year).

uzombie

Apr 7, 2004, 02:40 PM

Hmmm... maybe Apple switched their business model to one the like of the "Car Industry". From now on, we'll have one update a year, in 2 or 3 flavors: The PMac G5 2005, PMac G5 2005 GT, PMac G5 2006, PMac G5 2006 GT, etc... :-) Maybe we'll be able to ad tons of extras... or maybe they'll put more standard features.

I think you are confused with Ford. :D

And there will be a PMac G5 2005 Convertible :o

Multimedia

Apr 7, 2004, 03:51 PM

I don't think NAB is the right place to announce a speed bumped PM revision. Either they release the PMs silently or at WWDC. PBs will come out before WWDC, I'd say sometime later this month.NAB IS Exactly The Right Place. This is Apple's First Dedicated Press Event OFF EXPO FLOOR In The History Of NAB. Never Before Has Apple rented a ballroom for a press event the day before the NAB Expo opens. It is definitely a BIG DEAL event. I expect it will be broadcast to all Apple Stores as well.

billyboy

Apr 7, 2004, 03:53 PM

I believe Apple will update EVERYTHING at once in a HUGE 20th Anniversary Celebratory BASH at WWDC! Seems like the one big thing to celebrate (since nothing else has happened this year).

I was thinking that too. The quiet before a major birhtday storm. Brand new products, leading on to the 3GHz PM for the autumn, iTMS global for Christmas...

Soire

Apr 7, 2004, 03:55 PM

agreenster

Apr 7, 2004, 04:18 PM

You'd be waiting for WWDC for Apple to possibly ANNOUNCE the 3GHz. Even if that happened they'd likely not ship before "end of summer" (September 21, 2004). ;)

Yeah, agreed. But the only reason Im expecting 3ghz'ers at WWDC is because that's the venue last year that SJ famously made the "3ghz by next year" promise.

Nny

Apr 7, 2004, 04:21 PM

The first generation G5 is certainly a vast improvement in speed. But it is also a rev. a machine -- which I why I won't buy one. My Apple 2e, Performa 630, and PowerMac 8600 are still functioning today. But my Titanium PowerBook G4, and the new G5s, are not built to same level of quality control. I'm waiting until rev. b to buy a G5 -- simple as that.

Yeah.... but the Rev B is going to be the first 90 nm version of the G5 (one would think). I think a move of that extreme level is prone to just as many problems as a Rev A machine. This is a much bigger change than just a bump in clock speed, and that's why there is a delay (possibly... i dunno).

Not saying I'm not going to buy one. I plan on waiting for a Dual 3 GHz... whether that is Rev B or C remains to be seen. I like the fact that Steve announced where Apple planned to be in a year. That's what avoided my buying the Dual 2 GHz last Summer/Fall. Just wish Apple would have a public roadmap like many other tech companies. Curious: How many will buy the Dual 3 GHz if Steve says at it's announcement: "This thing has legs... we'll be at 4-5 GHz in a year"?

numediaman

Apr 7, 2004, 04:28 PM

NAB IS Exactly The Right Place. This is Apple's First Dedicated Press Event OFF EXPO FLOOR In The History Of NAB. Never Before Has Apple rented a ballroom for a press event the day before the NAB Expo opens. It is definitely a BIG DEAL event. I expect it will be broadcast to all Apple Stores as well.

I hope you're right -- but looking at the NAB site I see Apple as a minor presense at this show. First, Apple is not a sponsor of the event. Next, their booth space is pretty modest: two booths next to each other, with the location right next to a larger Avid booth. Finally, of all the conferences & events being held, Apple only has one QuickTime guy on one panel (Glenn Bulycz, who is the only panel member without a picture) -- and what's worse is that the keynote for that panel is being given by a guy from the Windows Media division of Microsoft!

NAB looks like a great event (too bad I'm on the print side of the media world), but Apple looks like a bit player.

ghiangelo

Apr 7, 2004, 04:33 PM

http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=413

yet another interesting bit of info about the G5 revision delay...

it mentions that prototypes were sent out to select individuals in january but that something went wrong.. i wonder if the things catch fire or something.

hmm looks like the 970 is still a work in progress. hope these new revB units don't end up having a high jinx factor.

i don't think 3Ghz is going to be available anytime soon.

ghi

Mr Maui

Apr 7, 2004, 04:39 PM

Yeah, agreed. But the only reason Im expecting 3ghz'ers at WWDC is because that's the venue last year that SJ famously made the "3ghz by next year" promise.

I believe the quotes were "within a year" (Announced June 2003) and "by the end of next summer" (September 2003). :rolleyes:

MacsRgr8

Apr 7, 2004, 04:39 PM

I wonder.....

Is Steve already having nightmares over his "3 GHz this time next year" prediction?

I don't believe the coming G5 updates are going to reach 3 GHz. Having to sell 2 GHz G5s for a whole year, then suddenly upgrade to 3 GHz will get the non-rumor-knowing ( :D ) people pretty frustrated when they find out their expensive Dual PowerMac purchase has this massive upgrade for the same amount of money.
Many of us were pretty mad when Apple suddenly launched the Dual 1.8 for the same price as the old Single one. Imagine a whole GHz (Dual!) upgrade....

So, @ NAB? WWDC? Or no event at all... just an updated apple.com homepage...?
Whenever it will happen, it is already very close (or past) to the halfway mark: Last year's shipping date, and the promised 3.0 Ghz mark.

I think Steve can announce a new 3 Ghz promise....

pgwalsh

Apr 7, 2004, 04:39 PM

a decent video card (9800 XT 256 MB preferred)That's argubaly the best video card. some more storage (Dell is shipping 400 GB HDs in their configs now). What other features/improvements would you guys like to see?That would be nice.
I am one of those people waiting for a Rev B G5. I hear you... Ditto :(

It IS peculiar that NOTHING has been updated. I swear I think they are just sitting on their iPod sales. I've been telling people that they're a digital device company. They're goint to release a monitor for the ipod and you can use it as your desktop with linux. :p

Why do these "delay" rumors about PowerMacs keep getting posted? There is no delay. There was no intention on Apple's part to upgrade until they went 3 GHz. There is no need to. None at all. and you know this because you have an invisible camera @ Apple headquarters, right? :rolleyes:

Ambrose Chapel

Apr 7, 2004, 05:19 PM

numediaman

Apr 7, 2004, 05:23 PM

http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=413

yet another interesting bit of info about the G5 revision delay...

... i don't think 3Ghz is going to be available anytime soon.

ghi

Reading the AppleInsider report, it doesn't look like 2.6, or 2.4, anytime soon either. I hope this report is wrong, because if it isn't, then they are pointing to very modest speedbumps for WWDC -- something along the lines of introducing a 2.2 model only! Yikes! Can the news get worse?

ghiangelo

Apr 7, 2004, 05:43 PM

i saw this..it does seem rather ominous. nothing to do but count the Tuesdays, I guess.

this does not bode well for Apple and it's resellers. i read that the introduction of the G5 was not as big a seller as anticipated and having the standard units hanging around without upscaling for this long does not spark the consumer. the frightening thing is that it seems the issue is in the engineering of the computer itself. 90nm chips look to be a problem (Intel is taking it's time on them too). all of us are assuming that IBM is able to easily throw together a new system without problem. maybe the revision is a WHOLE new machine design electronically and not just a simple case of popping in a faster chip...

not a good sign if each revision has to be a reinvention of the previous...

ghi

wannaPM

Apr 7, 2004, 06:00 PM

From one of the latest AI rumors:
Meanwhile, Power Mac G5 revision specs, model numbers and rumored US government purchases touted elsewhere on the Web are completely false and fabricated, very reliable sources told AppleInsider. However, these reports are being fabricated by an individual and not the publications they appear on.
I started to believe that this is true and that this individual could be Apple... Consider that many G5 are still in the distributors stocks and probably they don't want any of them to be still there when the new models will be announced.
So Apple started to "fabricate" these false rumors and potential G5 buyers waiting for the revB models started to think: "the new G5s are again and further, too much delayed ... anyway when Apple will finally publish the announcement 80.000 units will be pre-ordered and will be shipped at least 2-3 months later ... let's buy that nice dual 2 GHz now and don't look back!".
To further enforce what's above see the following, always from AI, which I judge at least exaggerated:
Sources also confirmed that the absence of faster models is a direct result of an unanticipated setback. "Something has gone terribly wrong,"
Terrible, very very terrible!!! Probably that source no longer sleeps at night for this setback! :p
And I just would like to see the Apple guys assembling 80.000 - I wrote eighty thousands - Xserve and G5 for the USA gov in few weeks!
But I resist, Apple will not make me buy one old and chirping dual 1.8 ... that dual 2.4 must come home with me!

Nny

Apr 7, 2004, 06:08 PM

That's argubaly the best video card.

Agreed, a Radeon 9800XT is the best right now. But by WWDC ATI and nVidia will have something newer (they both are expected to launch new chips this month).... I just expect Apple to be one step behind. I didn't mean to imply either that it should be standard in new models.... I think they should bump the ATI 9600 to a 128 MB version as standard, and offer an ATI 9800XT as BTO.

pgwalsh

Apr 7, 2004, 06:17 PM

Agreed, a Radeon 9800XT is the best right now. But by WWDC ATI and nVidia will have something newer (they both are expected to launch new chips this month).... I just expect Apple to be one step behind. I didn't mean to imply either that it should be standard in new models.... I think they should bump the ATI 9600 to a 128 MB version as standard, and offer an ATI 9800XT as BTO.Well I think since the PowerMacs are the pro models they should have the best of everything. There should be no upgrade, they should come standard with the top-of-the-line.They charge a permium for those PM with no monitor or speakers etc etc etc. The only exception would be the base model.

invaLPsion

Apr 7, 2004, 06:47 PM

I firmly believe that MacWorld Paris was specifically moved back to the end of summer for the 3GHz upgrade. The event is usually held in mid-late September but has been pushed back this year to August 31st, still in summer. This way, Steve can keep his promise.

WWDC will be used to "G5ify" other consumer models. The iMac and powerbook will both be boosted to G5s at WWDC.

oingoboingo

Apr 7, 2004, 07:28 PM

In hindsight, those who purchased dual 2.0 in July-Oct 2003 were the smart ones. They STILL have the king of the personal computer industry, and probably will for several more weeks. Not to mention there were no flaws with the Revision A Power Mac G5, even though some feared there would be (and consequently, did not buy). Let's just say I am glad to be counted in the camp of the smart ones with my August 2.0 G5 DP Power Mac purchase. :D

I generally agree with what you're saying...9 months and counting is a long time to be without the fastest machine you can get your hands on if you're a professional user who needs the fastest Mac they can get their hands on. If people had known that it would be *at least* 9 months before the G5s were going to be updated, then possibly a lot more users would have placed their order straight after that famous WWDC keynote last year.

But with regards to the 'no flaws' comment, I cannot agree. While G5 problems may not be massively widespread, and I'm sure the majority of G5 owners are happy with their machines, there are plenty of faults to take your pick from. Chirping and noisy power supplies, a variety of logic board crashes, the 'Black Screen of Death' (BSOD) problem with cold booting from certain Radeon video cards, the issue of the misplacement of the drive bay heat sensor, and assorted other little things, like the front headphone socket not cancelling out the speaker output when headphones are plugged in. Check www.xlr8yourmac.com or the Apple Discussion Forums. My first G5 was declared DOA by Apple after an untraceable motherboard fault, and the replacement I'm currently using suffers from the BSOD when the weather is cold...I'm just waiting for the problem to recur with 100% reproducibility now that the Australia summer is fading away before I take it in for a warranty claim.

As I said, I'm not saying that the majority of G5s are flawed. But as the owner of 2 G5s in a row which had faults (which resulted in a lot of time spent on support forums tracking issues down), you'd better believe there is a nice little collection of manufacturing and design faults doing the rounds of some unlucky G5 owners. Hopefully Rev. B will sort them out.

invaLPsion

Apr 7, 2004, 07:32 PM

Single 1.8s have finally sold out at MacMall and Clubmac.

Nny

Apr 7, 2004, 08:02 PM

WWDC will be used to "G5ify" other consumer models. The iMac and powerbook will both be boosted to G5s at WWDC.

I doubt Apple would let a faster G5 in the iMac than what they include in their Pro lineup (the iMac would be the first to get updated... G5 Powerbooks are still a ways off... you will probably see a 1.5 GHz G4 Powerbook first). I also doubt they would introduce a 2 GHz or slower iMac G5 if they have 3 GHz coming out right around the corner. Hence I belive Powermacs, then iMacs... followed by Powerbooks probably at MWSF. Alternatively, Apple may very well have a stockpile of 2.2 or 2.4 GHz chips for iMacs and are simply waiting for the 3 GHz for the Powermacs so they can launch all at the same time (there was probably a very real delay and they figured it was too late for a mid-season refresh so they did not use these middle-of-the-road chips in the Powermacs).

Merry

Apr 7, 2004, 08:11 PM

I honestly think it's too late for an announcement of a speed bump before WWDC now. So I am just going to wait patiently (eye twitching uncontrollably) and spend the time painting the wall (You see!! It changes color when it dries! It never stays! I have to keep the wall wet!).[/QUOTE]

LOL you too...? :D

invaLPsion

Apr 7, 2004, 08:37 PM

they figured it was too late for a mid-season refresh so they did not use these middle-of-the-road chips in the Powermacs).

But it's not too late.... :p

fcd

Apr 7, 2004, 09:02 PM

Apple australia has just extended its Power Mac Trade In Offer until the end of April, if that means anything to you guys.

http://www.apple.com.au/promo/tradeupg5/

and here is another

http://www.apple.com.au/promo/brilliant/

kobiashi

Apr 7, 2004, 09:19 PM

No New G5s...this appeared on the Apple Web Site but was removed as quickly as it appeared....

Multimedia

Apr 7, 2004, 09:59 PM

No New G5s...this appeared on the Apple Web Site but was removed as quickly as it appeared....
Nice Fantasy. :)

johnnowak

Apr 7, 2004, 10:32 PM

If they are having cooling issues in that giant case, where the front and back are nearly entirely open, and there's nine fans, I will personally go kick their asses. They can get a 3.2gHz pentium to run in a 12x12 box just fine, with an overclocked 256MB graphics card and all this nonsense, and they're still a heck of a lot more quiet than my Dual 867. I'm talking counterstrike players here people.

wdlove

Apr 7, 2004, 10:34 PM

No New G5s...this appeared on the Apple Web Site but was removed as quickly as it appeared....

It looks like a late April Fools joke. Which means that the joke is on them.

Thor74

Apr 7, 2004, 11:00 PM

Ack, on the back end of a thread.. Yahoo!

At any rate... Dual 867 here.. Tired of waiting for a decent Dualie upgrade. Regardless of the Steve Jobs fanatics think, I am betting that Steve Jobs crow about his "end of summer" dual 3 GHZ promise. :(

Selecter

Apr 7, 2004, 11:32 PM

I got my Dual 1.8 the day after thanksgiving last year. Never had a problem with it. No weird noises, no Rev. A problems, just no problems. Never had a freeze or a kernel panic. I even ran folding on it for weeks never a problem.

self abuse must be a ingrained problem with you guys - I see no reason why someone using a 500 Mhz G4 would wait for a Rev B unit considering the speed increase going from that box to a dual 1.8 or 2.0.

so, my conclusion is that you all are maniacs that eat brains. Tank you. :eek:

Macster389

Apr 8, 2004, 12:17 AM

Steve Jobs is very innovative, but that is where it stops . He already drove Apple into the ground once because of his lack of marketing skills. He has brought Apple back from the dead by charging a lot for the new products. His margins are very high. We, the Mac faithful, are paying the price. Most of the time he uses older technology and charges for current. When I purchased my G4, it had standard memory and an ATA 66 drive. The PC market was DDR memory and ATA 100. Now he sells the 4X dvd-rw and the PC is 8X. As the cost of these new technologies come down, you start seeing them in the Mac. I am on the School Board, so I qualify for an education discount. On the dual 1.8, this comes to about 10%. Check out Dell and Gateways education discount!

Look at Apple's customer service call center. The hours were drastically cut back years ago to save money, making it harder to contact them. Now that Apple is debt free, will Steve start being more customer friendly? How will Steve get new switchers? Were the old switchers actually switchers or just Mac people who left and came back? Will he push us away again with his destructive policies? There is a very loyal core of Apple customers, who by spending their hard earned dollars have brought Apple back from extinction. It woul be nice to see some sort of reward for us.

Don't get me wrong, I am an Apple supporter. Remember when Apple ruled the PC world, and an Apple II cost over 5,000 dollars? How much was an IBM? The Mac OS was far superior and more stable to the early Windows versions. The latest version of Windows is very stable and will get even better. I would hate to see the price of the new Power Macs start to chase customers away again!

thatwendigo

Apr 8, 2004, 01:27 AM

Steve Jobs is very innovative, but that is where it stops . He already drove Apple into the ground once because of his lack of marketing skills.

Actually, I would say he has the good sense to surround himself with a whole lot of innovators and creative types, including marketers. If he's so terrible at it, then explain the success of the iPod and iTMS, along with the climb in mac sales and the adoption of OS X.

He has brought Apple back from the dead by charging a lot for the new products. His margins are very high. We, the Mac faithful, are paying the price. Most of the time he uses older technology and charges for current.

Previously true, before the G5. It's top of the line, and even buying the parts yourself, a similarly complex system costs around $2000. That's without any discounts, assembly fees, or any other factor - just pure cost of components.

When I purchased my G4, it had standard memory and an ATA 66 drive. The PC market was DDR memory and ATA 100. Now he sells the 4X dvd-rw and the PC is 8X. As the cost of these new technologies come down, you start seeing them in the Mac.

Apple started a number of trends, or got in early, at least. SATA is just taking off, but they were largely responsible for Firewire and USB going as far as they did.

At the moment, you get PC3200 (top of the line in normal industry), SATA (ditto), dual bank memory for dual processors (expensive and not common in PCs), high speed bridges that equal or exceed their counterparts (ditto), AGP 8x (industry standard), 802.11g (industry standard), and PCI-X (guess what?).

How will Steve get new switchers? Were the old switchers actually switchers or just Mac people who left and came back? Will he push us away again with his destructive policies? There is a very loyal core of Apple customers, who by spending their hard earned dollars have brought Apple back from extinction. It woul be nice to see some sort of reward for us.

We are getting a reward, you know. Adjust $3000 for inflation, taking it back to 1982, and tell me that the Apple II you couldn't have bought with that money is at all as useful as the dual G5 you could buy with it now. Destructive policies, though? If anything, Jobs saved Apple from the wandering spiral of death it actually had been on before, and the current path is set to continue the recovery.

The Mac OS was far superior and more stable to the early Windows versions. The latest version of Windows is very stable and will get even better. I would hate to see the price of the new Power Macs start to chase customers away again!

The Mac OS is still far superior to Windows, hands down, and to call Windows stable and expect it to improve on this hypothetical base that it's gained shows that you're basically trolling. I've never seen an OS crash as often, as hard, or as unrecoverably as Windows does, and I've been using computers since I was three years old. That trend has slowed slightly, but it is far from over.

thatwendigo

Apr 8, 2004, 01:28 AM

(You see!! It changes color when it dries! It never stays! I have to keep the wall wet!).

Tonight, I'm going over the stars.

kobiashi

Apr 8, 2004, 02:00 AM

The Mac OS is still far superior to Windows, hands down, and to call Windows stable and expect it to improve on this hypothetical base that it's gained shows that you're basically trolling. I've never seen an OS crash as often, as hard, or as unrecoverably as Windows does, and I've been using computers since I was three years old. That trend has slowed slightly, but it is far from over.

Interesting...
The very first computers I ever used were Macs. I could not stand Windows (at the time I think it was Windows 3)..I kept using Macs and everyone else had Windows 95, then 98...and I thought Windows still sucked.....

Then I got a G3 and Mac 9.2 and it crashed all the time. My office used Windows XP and it's a wonderful operating system. It was then I bought my first Windows machine, I've had it for a little over 2 years now and it has only crashed once.

About 6 months ago I got a Mac Powerbook with 10.2 and when Panther came out I updated to that. 10.2 crashed twice, and Panther has also crashed twice. If you honestly believe that XP is any less stable than OS X then you don't know what you're talking about. I'm saying this and I'm a huge fan of Apple. I'm buying a G5 and 23"HD Cinema display in a week or two (waiting for the new ones...but if they don't come out by NAB then I'm geting the current ones).

Is OSX an elegant OS? You bet. Do I like it? You bet. But the fact remains that Maya runs faster on Windows and Linux, Shake runs better and faster on Linux, in fact...just about everything runs faster on the other platforms...
but...I still love the Mac...which is why I am getting getting another...but I'm ont blinded by some religious OS fervor.

Meanwhile...I await the new Mac G5s....

thatwendigo

Apr 8, 2004, 02:29 AM

Then I got a G3 and Mac 9.2 and it crashed all the time. My office used Windows XP and it's a wonderful operating system. It was then I bought my first Windows machine, I've had it for a little over 2 years now and it has only crashed once.

I rarely crashed under 6, 7, 8, or 9, and when I did, it was pretty clearly badly written third-party code or my fault for tinkering with something. I did that a lot. Existing alongside Windows on a fairly constant basis (friends and school), I got to experience an awful lot more crashes away from home than I ever did there, even though I used the computer more at home than I used any machine anywhere else.

About 6 months ago I got a Mac Powerbook with 10.2 and when Panther came out I updated to that. 10.2 crashed twice, and Panther has also crashed twice. If you honestly believe that XP is any less stable than OS X then you don't know what you're talking about.

I've been using OS X since the public beta. You know how many times I've crashed, installed across my family's seven macs, and my own two. Since it debuted, I've experienced a grand total of five kernel panics across nine installs, each one an early adopted of the next version. I even had the developer release of Panther, and it never crashed on me.

By contrast, my roommate's XP box has had to be reinstalled five times since he got XP about a year ago, one of my coworkers had to reinstall it after he and I ran a driver disk for his wireless bridge (while the Airport in my iBook worked flawlessly from day one), and I constantly have to help other coworkers with driver issues, virii, and just about anything else that could go wrong in Windows. My dad's Panther box at work plays nicer on their corporate network than the Windows machiens do, and they're using things like ActiveDirctory!

So, no, I'm not clueless on what I'm talking about. I just don't break the OS as a matter of habit, and I see Windows go down, all around me, all the time. I could go into the problems my school had with their Wintel boxes, if you'd like...

Is OSX an elegant OS? You bet. Do I like it? You bet. But the fact remains that Maya runs faster on Windows and Linux, Shake runs better and faster on Linux, in fact...just about everything runs faster on the other platforms...

Citation, please. This is a common claim, a common assumption, but one that is rarely backed up in any meaningful manner.

but...I still love the Mac...which is why I am getting getting another...but I'm ont blinded by some religious OS fervor.

My religion, as you call it, is born of workflow, elegance, and ease of use. When Microsoft and AMD/Intel begin to approximate what I can do on a mac, I will take them seriously. Until then, they're possibly faster, but far less reliable or beneficial.

I have all kinds of rational reasons for my positions, and I am far from the typical "Apple Zealot." Take a look through my old posts, if you don't beleive it.

oingoboingo

Apr 8, 2004, 02:34 AM

At the moment, you get PC3200 (top of the line in normal industry), SATA (ditto), dual bank memory for dual processors (expensive and not common in PCs), high speed bridges that equal or exceed their counterparts (ditto), AGP 8x (industry standard), 802.11g (industry standard), and PCI-X (guess what?).

Just a small point...any PC built out of a common-as-dirt nVidia nForce2 based motherboard has dual-channel DDR RAM. I built an Athlon-based system for a friend at least 12 months ago using an Asus nForce2 based board with dual channel RAM, and it was all priced squarely in the middle of the pack as far as motherboards went. I would say dual channel RAM is quite common in any enthusiast PC.

The Mac OS is still far superior to Windows, hands down, and to call Windows stable and expect it to improve on this hypothetical base that it's gained shows that you're basically trolling. I've never seen an OS crash as often, as hard, or as unrecoverably as Windows does, and I've been using computers since I was three years old. That trend has slowed slightly, but it is far from over.

I also believe Mac OS X to be superior to Windows, but it's not because Windows crashes all the time. The only time I've seen Windows XP or Windows 2000 crash has been in the case of either a buggy hardware driver (stability restored when device removed), or in the case of faulty hardware (such as RAM). Core Windows stability is pretty good these days. Windows 95 isn't king anymore. Obviously I'm not talking about virus/spyware susceptibility or anything like that...I'm talking about core OS stability.

Seriously...in what circumstances have you seen Windows 2000/XP crashing "as often, as hard or as unrecoverably"? I'll bet it's a hardware issue.

thatwendigo

Apr 8, 2004, 03:21 AM

Just a small point...any PC built out of a common-as-dirt nVidia nForce2 based motherboard has dual-channel DDR RAM. I built an Athlon-based system for a friend at least 12 months ago using an Asus nForce2 based board with dual channel RAM, and it was all priced squarely in the middle of the pack as far as motherboards went. I would say dual channel RAM is quite common in any enthusiast PC.

I'm not talking mere dual-channel, and you know it. I'm talking dual-bank, dual channel RAM on a dual processor motherboard, with four slots. There's a single board I've found for Xeons that has the same characteristics as Apple's, and it costs $380+ (depending on version) without processors. Mid-line Xeons are another ~$750, for a total of $1100 just for those two components.

The only time I've seen Windows XP or Windows 2000 crash has been in the case of either a buggy hardware driver (stability restored when device removed), or in the case of faulty hardware (such as RAM). Core Windows stability is pretty good these days.

I did mention driver issues as being one of my primary problems, when it comes to helping others. With my roommate's machine, I'd have to ask him, and since we don't live together anymore and don't speak... That would be a bit hard. :D In all honesty, I'd be willing to bet that most of the issues I have to fix for others are the basis of Windows and user decay, a lack of maintenance, and some other issues... At the same time, my mom doesn't do any maintenance on her machines, and I don't have to fix the macs she owns except once in a rare while, and that's usually a defrag and a runthrough of Norton, Diskwarrior, or Techtool.

However, I don't have these same issues on my computers. A cron, a defrag every six months or so, and I'm fine. I haven't hard crashed in almost two years, at this point. Two years. I don't personally know anyone with a Windows box who can say the same thing.

Apple //e

Apr 8, 2004, 03:50 AM

However, I don't have these same issues on my computers. A cron, a defrag every six months or so, and I'm fine. I haven't hard crashed in almost two years, at this point. Two years. I don't personally know anyone with a Windows box who can say the same thing.

hi,

i dont know what youre definition of "hard crashed" is but i havent had my win2k kernel bodyslam me in 3 years.

and i regularly use ps cs, 3d viz 4, and acad 04 simultaneaously.

well, i guess you still dont personally know me

thatwendigo

Apr 8, 2004, 04:12 AM

i dont know what youre definition of "hard crashed" is but i havent had my win2k kernel bodyslam me in 3 years.

A hard crash is a lock-up that requires resetting the machine.

My computer is only ever powered down for long absences, system installs, and powerr outages/inclement weather. My iBook 600 hasn't been shut off for anything other than a system update or depleted battery. Ever.

oingoboingo

Apr 8, 2004, 04:42 AM

I'm not talking mere dual-channel, and you know it. I'm talking dual-bank, dual channel RAM on a dual processor motherboard, with four slots. There's a single board I've found for Xeons that has the same characteristics as Apple's, and it costs $380+ (depending on version) without processors. Mid-line Xeons are another ~$750, for a total of $1100 just for those two components.

Sorry, my bad. I realised after I'd posted that you were talking about dual CPU boards too, not just single CPU systems. I just saw the dual channel RAM part.

However, I don't have these same issues on my computers. A cron, a defrag every six months or so, and I'm fine. I haven't hard crashed in almost two years, at this point. Two years. I don't personally know anyone with a Windows box who can say the same thing.

I can't hold my hand on my heart and say for sure it's been two years, but I literally can't remember the last time that anyone in my office crashed their Windows 2000 box (IBM desktop systems, can't remember exact model name). Those office PCs get used for...well...Office, browser and e-mail functions. They're regularly swept for viruses by the automatic stuff that sysadmin have installed, and kept up to date with MS service packs, and of course the office LAN is properly firewalled. Of course, a badly maintained system is going to present more problems...viruses, spyware, and over-priviledged users messing around with system settings and changing hardware configs...they're all going to affect system stability. But in a well-run corporate environment, the Windows 2000/XP machines I've seen have been highly reliable. Stability certainly isn't the major weak point with Windows that it used to be.

The only time I've been able to hard crash my OS X systems (not including the faulty motherboard on my 1st G5, and intermittent not waking from sleep issues on the 12" PowerBook <sigh>) was with a self-compiled copy of MySQL 4. I compiled it, it tested OK, but when I started the MySQL daemon, OS X just froze. Hard. Couldn't even SSH in from my PowerBook.

Apple //e

Apr 8, 2004, 04:42 AM

A hard crash is a lock-up that requires resetting the machine.

My computer is only ever powered down for long absences, system installs, and powerr outages/inclement weather. My iBook 600 hasn't been shut off for anything other than a system update or depleted battery. Ever.

i shut down my win2k desktop about once a month...often because the electric co in my area suxs, and my ups is way unreliable (never buy a koblenz ups) but my 5 year old win 2k thinkpad 240x has been going strong for the past 2 years with just a "hibernate" or "standby" with an occasional "shut down"

my thinkpad does/cannot do anything more than office/internet/light pshop/2d acad

my parent´s old 266p2 and 1000p3 require anything more than a regular virusscan, adaware, and defrag

having used many platforms professionaly, i am bold enough to say:

" all computers suck.....they are all tools......the operator is more important than the machine.....no platform is superior to all others"

Selecter

Apr 8, 2004, 06:48 AM

Don't get me wrong, I am an Apple supporter.

ow cum every author that's a newbie that write's a apple bashing trollfest insists on writing a version of this sentence somewhere in their post to re-assure us thats he's really on the up-and-up?

Come on D()()D . GeT HiP. :D

negrito

Apr 8, 2004, 08:29 AM

i think it is wrong to think that annoucements should be in a 6 months periodical manner. there can be easily fluctuations of 2-3 months in those periodical announcements. in addation it is wrong to calculate the announcements but rather when the product is really available on the market.

this lead us to the nest problem of apple: the first delivery fiasco of the powermac g5. maybe it is that people forget quickly how long they waited for their powermacs but why do you want to apple announce aigain things they can deliver in 3 months?! apple meybe learned out of their faults. in is a good idea to announce products that will be immediately available to te market because this won't halter sells during an announcment-releasing period. example: the g5 announcement stopped almost all sells of g4. at this time it may also have been a good effect because like this more people switched to a new system rather than buy a system that is outdated in 3 months. but now it is different because the g5s that have to be soon available are just speedbumped g5s and apple don't want to see the current g5 sells to go down because everybody waits for the "announced but delivered in 10 weeks" g5s.

so what is the best strategy for apple?! produce as much as possble of the new units to fullfill the probable demand and announce the new g5s when they have build up a stock to deliver immediately to the customer! this has multiple positive effects: g5 sells don't go down because new products aren't direct concurrence to the old ones. customers aren't angry because of unfullfilled delivery dates. more credibility for apple because of good selling strategies and happy customers.

you hae to see thos g5 updates as an incremental update to mac os x 10.3: a new poduct line is announced 2-3 months before delivery to have preorders and check the demand of the product. a 10.3.3 update isn't announced but it will be there when it will be there. it will create its demand because it is available but there wasn't any demand before it was available (this is a good effect). so g5 updates will be here when they can be delivered and they won't be announced 3 months in advance.

also alle the speculations of hot processors can't be true because a 130nm powerpc970 @ 2ghz consumes 51 watts but a 90nm powerpc970fx @ 2ghz consumes 25 watts. in comparision a pentium 4 extreme @ 3ghz consumes 89 watts. in addition the powerpc970fx @ 2 ghz is uses in the xserves which have a much smaller enclosure and like so less cooling! the most evident explonation of the late g5 update is made by http://croquer.free.fr/ where all delays are based on product availability. firstly there were delays because of the graficscards and now there seems tto be a very big order by the us government. if apple has the strategy to build up a big stock before announcement this order can easily explain the delays.

all in all the roadmap is still ok for the 3ghz at the end of summer because you have to calculate productupdates by their availabilty on the market:

october 2003: g5 @ 2ghz
(7 months)
may 2004: g5 @ 2.6ghz
(5 months)
october 2004: g5 @ 3ghz

now let us look at the probable announcment to make: as the 3ghz g5 is just an update it won't be very important and there won't be an announcment at wwdc to not freeze the g5 sells. the next big announcement will be the powerbook g5 with the powerpc970fx at the wwdc with availability in october. to bridge now the long time up to october 2004 there will be a soon g4 update to the powerbooks.

so all this is theory but if you begin to cramble the rumors together you can deduct certain things because every rumor has some truth ;) :D

jade

Apr 8, 2004, 12:14 PM

I'm not talking mere dual-channel, and you know it. I'm talking dual-bank, dual channel RAM on a dual processor motherboard, with four slots. There's a single board I've found for Xeons that has the same characteristics as Apple's, and it costs $380+ (depending on version) without processors. Mid-line Xeons are another ~$750, for a total of $1100 just for those two components.

I did mention driver issues as being one of my primary problems, when it comes to helping others. With my roommate's machine, I'd have to ask him, and since we don't live together anymore and don't speak... That would be a bit hard. :D In all honesty, I'd be willing to bet that most of the issues I have to fix for others are the basis of Windows and user decay, a lack of maintenance, and some other issues... At the same time, my mom doesn't do any maintenance on her machines, and I don't have to fix the macs she owns except once in a rare while, and that's usually a defrag and a runthrough of Norton, Diskwarrior, or Techtool.

However, I don't have these same issues on my computers. A cron, a defrag every six months or so, and I'm fine. I haven't hard crashed in almost two years, at this point. Two years. I don't personally know anyone with a Windows box who can say the same thing.

Sorry but my two windows xp boxes haven't crashed for at least 4 months since upgrading...and while they were on Win 98 (yup 98) we regularlly made it through 6 month stretches. Windows isn't as crash prone as people here make it out to be. It is more related to user error than anything else, but with a little bit of regular matenence your computer will be fine. (spyware on the other hand need more regular checks)

So stop lying, I have used PCs for 20 years, and had very few serious crashes that I can remember. My Win 98 Vaio notebook only crashed 2 times during its 4 years of use.

I didn't get a mac because My PCs were crashing constantly..I liked the superior multitasking.

thatwendigo

Apr 8, 2004, 02:20 PM

Sorry but my two windows xp boxes haven't crashed for at least 4 months since upgrading...and while they were on Win 98 (yup 98) we regularlly made it through 6 month stretches. Windows isn't as crash prone as people here make it out to be. It is more related to user error than anything else, but with a little bit of regular matenence your computer will be fine. (spyware on the other hand need more regular checks)

Four months? Six months? Did you miss where I said that my iBook has never crashed, and my eMac has been crash-free for two years? For some people, Windows isn't as crash prone as it's made out to be, but for the vast majority of people I know, it's terrible. As with most things, what matters isn't that prosumer and professional users like you and I don't have issues... It's that the home users, who I end up supporting through their crises, are crashing left and right - on Windows.

So stop lying, I have used PCs for 20 years, and had very few serious crashes that I can remember. My Win 98 Vaio notebook only crashed 2 times during its 4 years of use.

I'm not lying, and there's no way you can verify your claims, any more than I can, when it comes to personal experience. I've used Apple for about 20 years (my first computer was bought in 1983, but it wasn't a mac), and PCs for around 15, and I have always, always had more problems out of the Wintel/x86 world.

jade

Apr 8, 2004, 02:39 PM

The vast majority of my PCs problems in the past have been solved by a restart (except on my Dad's machine..... he is also known as a hardware killer). Ofthe few that are left they required reinstalling drivers (on my Dad's machine of course, not on mine) and then 1 "required" a reinstall of the OS....although I think that was my neighborhood PC fix-it-shop being lazy. (again on my Dad's machine)

So far I have had a couple not waking up from sleep problems on my ibook during my 1st month of use. These required restarts.....and on the powerbook I used at my previous employed, during 6 months..I had many more not waking up from sleep problems, one kernal panic, and 4-5 freezes requiring reboots. Macs have had aproximately the same or slightly worse in terms of "crash-prone-ness" than PCs. Just my observation.

Overall I completely agree that using a mac at home means less calling your pc expert friends to help with your computer... but a good chunk of the windows users I know only rely on that method once every 6 months or so...so the mac premium isn't really worth it for them. In general I notice 95% of mac problems are solved by a restart or permissions repair where in windows the solutions tend to be more complicated. The number of problems per year has decresed greatly on all platforms, computers are getting more reliable in many cases, I just hate to see people saying windows crashes everytime you turn on your computer....because that really doesn't happen very frequently.

Zaty

Apr 8, 2004, 03:06 PM

If your PC only consists only of quality hardware, stability is definitely not a problem anymore in the short term. But I have heard several times if you installed XP when it came out in October 2001 and did not install anything since then, you will be forced to reinstall these days because it appears that after running for 2.5 years XP has turned itself unstable due to bad programming. On the other hand there are many Mac User who have been using their Macs for much longer than 2.5 years without reinstalling the OS.

AppleJustWorks

Apr 8, 2004, 03:30 PM

I have a bimbows box running XP.....(2.0 GHz P4, 512 MB Ram, etc)

I just did a fresh install of professional XP and the only thing I installed (other than those really annoying stupid WinBlows updtaes that occur every day) is Mozilla.

I ran Mozilla 20 times(I made a tally chart)...It crashed 8.....

Seriously, if you can't run Mozilla without the damn thing crashing....is this any sign of stability? Probably not....
but.....

13 years of using Wintel computers shows me one thing: They are not Stable.

In fact, it doesn't even have the equivelant of a "force quit" it just requests the program to shut.....

An app can crash on a mac and not affect the rest of the system, but as most PC users told me: If it crashes once, the system wil most likely go with it and it is best to reboot...

BTW: The systems that were running were All the most updated version of Win. XP Prof.

pgwalsh

Apr 8, 2004, 03:38 PM

I have a bimbows box running XP.....(2.0 GHz P4, 512 MB Ram, etc)

I just did a fresh install of professional XP and the only thing I installed (other than those really annoying stupid WinBlows updtaes that occur every day) is Mozilla.

I ran Mozilla 20 times(I made a tally chart)...It crashed 8.....

Seriously, if you can't run Mozilla without the damn thing crashing....is this any sign of stability? Probably not....
but.....
Ha! I've been using FireFox on Windows XP for a while and never had a problem. It's my main browser. My XP box is very stable. I haven't had a crash in over 6 months and I've ghosted the drive.

MrSugar

Apr 8, 2004, 03:56 PM

I rarely crashed under 6, 7, 8, or 9, and when I did, it was pretty clearly badly written third-party code or my fault for tinkering with something. I did that a lot. Existing alongside Windows on a fairly constant basis (friends and school), I got to experience an awful lot more crashes away from home than I ever did there, even though I used the computer more at home than I used any machine anywhere else.

I've been using OS X since the public beta. You know how many times I've crashed, installed across my family's seven macs, and my own two. Since it debuted, I've experienced a grand total of five kernel panics across nine installs, each one an early adopted of the next version. I even had the developer release of Panther, and it never crashed on me.

By contrast, my roommate's XP box has had to be reinstalled five times since he got XP about a year ago, one of my coworkers had to reinstall it after he and I ran a driver disk for his wireless bridge (while the Airport in my iBook worked flawlessly from day one), and I constantly have to help other coworkers with driver issues, virii, and just about anything else that could go wrong in Windows. My dad's Panther box at work plays nicer on their corporate network than the Windows machiens do, and they're using things like ActiveDirctory!

So, no, I'm not clueless on what I'm talking about. I just don't break the OS as a matter of habit, and I see Windows go down, all around me, all the time. I could go into the problems my school had with their Wintel boxes, if you'd like...

Citation, please. This is a common claim, a common assumption, but one that is rarely backed up in any meaningful manner.

My religion, as you call it, is born of workflow, elegance, and ease of use. When Microsoft and AMD/Intel begin to approximate what I can do on a mac, I will take them seriously. Until then, they're possibly faster, but far less reliable or beneficial.

I have all kinds of rational reasons for my positions, and I am far from the typical "Apple Zealot." Take a look through my old posts, if you don't beleive it.

Dude.. I serously love posts like this. Nice job. I totally agree, and you put it perfectally.

~Shard~

Apr 8, 2004, 05:35 PM

Four months? Six months? Did you miss where I said that my iBook has never crashed, and my eMac has been crash-free for two years? For some people, Windows isn't as crash prone as it's made out to be, but for the vast majority of people I know, it's terrible. As with most things, what matters isn't that prosumer and professional users like you and I don't have issues... It's that the home users, who I end up supporting through their crises, are crashing left and right - on Windows.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head with that one - I am in the same boat as you, as I have to constantly repair problems on friends' and coworkers' Windows boxes, often problems that I shake my head at because they are so stupid and unecessary - you would never see such problems on a Mac, but thanks to the guys who wrote Windows... And I'm sorry if the above sounds cliche, but from my experiences, this is simply the truth!

I'm not lying, and there's no way you can verify your claims, any more than I can, when it comes to personal experience. I've used Apple for about 20 years (my first computer was bought in 1983, but it wasn't a mac), and PCs for around 15, and I have always, always had more problems out of the Wintel/x86 world.

I can't say I've used a Mac (or computers in general, for that matter!) as long as you have, but this has been my experience as well - PCs have always caused me more trouble, and for me, that's simply the way it is - perhaps for other people, their experiences are different, which is fair enough. I'm not trying to over-generalize by any means.

Oh, and as for calling thatwendigo a liar, he can easily stand up for himself, but may I just add that those types of immature, irrational comments are not required in these forums, okay? We don't need to insult people, and in this case, make claims that obviously are unwarranted - thatwendigo's comments are not lies, simply because he was speaking from personal experience. Please post more intelligently in the future.

ghiangelo

Apr 8, 2004, 05:44 PM

read it and wonder

http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=416

well the wait is going to be longer than thought... not to mention what sort of configurations are going to be available...

ghi

numediaman

Apr 8, 2004, 05:58 PM

read it and wonder

http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=416

well the wait is going to be longer than thought... not to mention what sort of configurations are going to be available...

ghi

There doesn't appear to be anything exciting happening at Apple on the hardware side of things. I'm hoping that maybe Apple will introduce some nice new displays. Some anniversary year so far, huh?

(Someone posted somewhere a comment about GarageBand. Briefly, I think the comment was something to the effect that it didn't make sense to introduce a CPU intensive program like GB when the computers Apple was offering were inadequate. Now I think this post was right on. Why would Apple bother to introduce such a computing intensive program as the new iLife if they weren't prepared to introduce new G5s and iMacs? I'm beginning to sympathize with those who say they wish Apple would design all its software for the PC market, and have Apple get completely out of the hardware business -- other than iPods and the like.)

jade

Apr 8, 2004, 06:00 PM

I'm not lying, and there's no way you can verify your claims, any more than I can, when it comes to personal experience.

Sorry I didn't mean lying literally....the word I probably should have used is exaggerated claims of crashing.

I do no think that your experiences solving windows probs are any less valid than my overall pleasant experiences....sometimes it seems as if people come down a little hard on windows failure rate.

Bhennies

Apr 8, 2004, 06:20 PM

(Someone posted somewhere a comment about GarageBand. Briefly, I think the comment was something to the effect that it didn't make sense to introduce a CPU intensive program like GB when the computers Apple was offering were inadequate. Now I think this post was right on. Why would Apple bother to introduce such a computing intensive program as the new iLife if they weren't prepared to introduce new G5s and iMacs? I'm beginning to sympathize with those who say they wish Apple would design all its software for the PC market, and have Apple get completely out of the hardware business -- other than iPods and the like.)I'm sorry, but not able to handle Garageband? I've been running Pro Tools 6.1 (a REAL audio software program) on Os 10.2.8 on an old dual 500 g4 and it runs fine (could be faster but the machine's 4 years old). I can't even imagine how efficient it would be on a new g5 or even a powerbook g4, no one I know is unhappy with apples for audio processing. Dual 2.0 g5 is plenty of power. However, I wouldn't mind the 2.6, in fact I'm holding out for it. As well as the new 23" HD display. MMMM, MMMM BeeITCH! (As dave would say).

numediaman

Apr 8, 2004, 09:48 PM

I'm sorry, but not able to handle Garageband? I've been running Pro Tools 6.1 (a REAL audio software program) on Os 10.2.8 on an old dual 500 g4 and it runs fine (could be faster but the machine's 4 years old). I can't even imagine how efficient it would be on a new g5 or even a powerbook g4, no one I know is unhappy with apples for audio processing. Dual 2.0 g5 is plenty of power. However, I wouldn't mind the 2.6, in fact I'm holding out for it. As well as the new 23" HD display. MMMM, MMMM BeeITCH! (As dave would say).

I do a tremendous amount of audio work -- but I wouldn't even consider the G5 until they fix the Power Supply issue. Look on the Apple support discussion boards, its ugly.

But I think the real point here is that Apple is introducing some pretty good software -- but where is the hardware to match? I'm very happy with Panther, Final Cut, iLife, etc. but why am I left wishing I could run this stuff on a PC? I'd rather run it on a Mac, but Apple seems completely disinterested in their computer division (or their engineering or manufacturing management are out to lunch). Its 24 hours of iPod at Apple now-a-days.

Dont Hurt Me

Apr 8, 2004, 10:00 PM

I do a tremendous amount of audio work -- but I wouldn't even consider the G5 until they fix the Power Supply issue. Look on the Apple support discussion boards, its ugly.

But I think the real point here is that Apple is introducing some pretty good software -- but where is the hardware to match? I'm very happy with Panther, Final Cut, iLife, etc. but why am I left wishing I could run this stuff on a PC? I'd rather run it on a Mac, but Apple seems completely disinterested in their computer division (or their engineering or manufacturing management are out to lunch). Its 24 hours of iPod at Apple now-a-days.man have you said it, the software division rules the hardware guys suck a turd, look at Imac,Emac,ibook, and single g5s. not one of these machines comes close to the otherside, Im sorry Apple but you can only screw me so long on hardware until enough is enough. you farted around a year when you should have intoduced a G5imac to make up up for years of dicking around with G4 & G3s. No excuse to be extorting Mac user's all these years. Sick of the Crap. Release OSX for Windows if your going to keep pushing Hardware Crap. Im about to order ALIENWARE and then can walk into my neighborhood Wal-Mart for everything i need for it.

Bhennies

Apr 8, 2004, 11:12 PM

I do a tremendous amount of audio work -- but I wouldn't even consider the G5 until they fix the Power Supply issue. Look on the Apple support discussion boards, its ugly.

But I think the real point here is that Apple is introducing some pretty good software -- but where is the hardware to match? I'm very happy with Panther, Final Cut, iLife, etc. but why am I left wishing I could run this stuff on a PC? I'd rather run it on a Mac, but Apple seems completely disinterested in their computer division (or their engineering or manufacturing management are out to lunch). Its 24 hours of iPod at Apple now-a-days. Yeah, I feel you. I certainly don't want a rev A g5 either. Or the old displays for that matter. I'm waiting just like you. I am hoping that Apple will come through and really drop a kick a$$ machine this summer. We'll see. I have money burning in my pocket. However, i've gotta say that PC's aren't great either. I think we just forget that all computers suck to a certain degree. My parents have a PC laptop with XP, and they've got a bunch of boxes of uninstalled hardware sitting around that they couldn't get to work (CD burner, scanner, etc.). Getting wireless set up on that machine was a nightmare (i was in town to help out and it took us a whole weekend with several patches, long tech support phone calls, etc.) My mom's getting a Powerbook as soon as they're updated, she's ready to try apple. I have the feeling that she's not alone.

King1037

Apr 8, 2004, 11:29 PM

When I started working at a new job back in November, I thought new G5's would be out by the time I had enough money saved up to buy them (3-4 months). Of course.. I was wrong.

This is really starting to get annoying. Faced with the prospect of waiting 3 months for an overpriced (and overdue) machine while having to use an unbearably slow computer & have no productivity whatsoever... I'm not all too fond of Apple at the moment.

Have they forgotten that they have relatively few customers and are fighting for a larger market share? Like a few others on here, I'm really wondering if struggling with an old, slow machine and waiting for 9-12 months for updates really leaves me better off than dealing with an annoying OS with more software, on cheaper hardware, available now.

And I'm a developer! If a few others are starting to think like I am, the MacOS could see even fewer software apps available.

Loyalty is keeping me waiting. It won't keep me waiting forever.

Apple has to reward that loyalty, not take it for granted and treat their customers poorly. I don't want to see Steve Jobs strolling around on a stage with a water bottle and making extraordinary (and false) claims months from now. I want a new G5 sitting in front of me that I can put to use NOW.

thatwendigo

Apr 9, 2004, 01:06 AM

Dude.. I serously love posts like this. Nice job. I totally agree, and you put it perfectally.

Gracias, me compadre.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head with that one - I am in the same boat as you, as I have to constantly repair problems on friends' and coworkers' Windows boxes, often problems that I shake my head at because they are so stupid and unecessary - you would never see such problems on a Mac, but thanks to the guys who wrote Windows... And I'm sorry if the above sounds cliche, but from my experiences, this is simply the truth!

The worst part of it all, though, is that I have to keep touching Windows. Ewwwww! :p No, actually, the worst aspect of it is that I have to provide support for an OS that, were these people to spend what they'd pay a professional to fix these things, they'd be able to buy a mac and not have the problem.

I can't say I've used a Mac (or computers in general, for that matter!) as long as you have, but this has been my experience as well - PCs have always caused me more trouble, and for me, that's simply the way it is - perhaps for other people, their experiences are different, which is fair enough. I'm not trying to over-generalize by any means.

What can I say? I was programming in BASIC when I was five. :cool:

Oh, and as for calling thatwendigo a liar, he can easily stand up for himself, but may I just add that those types of immature, irrational comments are not required in these forums, okay? We don't need to insult people, and in this case, make claims that obviously are unwarranted - thatwendigo's comments are not lies, simply because he was speaking from personal experience. Please post more intelligently in the future.

Thanks for the backup, in any case. As always, Shard, it's been a pleasure.

I'm beginning to sympathize with those who say they wish Apple would design all its software for the PC market, and have Apple get completely out of the hardware business -- other than iPods and the like.

Ah, so you're another one of the people who want Apple dead, as opposed to alive, debt-free, and still ramping up into the new archtecture and constantly improving the OS? See, OS X would be cracked, pirated, and otherwise screwed over instantly by the vast majority of people who wanted to give it a try, and the ones who might pay for it (consumers) would still not have the Windows compatibility that's its biggest problem in the current market.

Repeat after me:
Rumors and dreams of Apple on x86 are the mind kille. Rumors and dreams of Apple on x86 are the little death. I will let them move over and through me, and when they are gone, only I will remain. :D

Sorry I didn't mean lying literally....the word I probably should have used is exaggerated claims of crashing.

I do no think that your experiences solving windows probs are any less valid than my overall pleasant experiences....sometimes it seems as if people come down a little hard on windows failure rate.

Apology accepted.

Also, just to be fair, I'm willing to accept that people have perfectly aceptable, and even pleasant, experiences with Windows, just as I'm willing to grant that you could be having as many issues with macs as you say you are. I know that they happen, but they just don't seem to happen to me, or to anyone I know.

But I think the real point here is that Apple is introducing some pretty good software -- but where is the hardware to match? I'm very happy with Panther, Final Cut, iLife, etc. but why am I left wishing I could run this stuff on a PC? I'd rather run it on a Mac, but Apple seems completely disinterested in their computer division (or their engineering or manufacturing management are out to lunch). Its 24 hours of iPod at Apple now-a-days.

*hand-talk motions*

Okay, let's try this again, for the DHMs and others in the audience... The fact that Apple hasn't updated the G5 yet, hasn't released a whole new PowerBook, or done any of these other things that people want doesn't mean anything about their engineering or manufacturing arms. There are half a million things (conservatively) that can go wrong in a big business, and Apple's in the unique position of having even more than their competitors, considering how much proprietary, in-house work goes into their machines. That says nothing of their specific manufacturing needs (G5 ASIC, anyone?), or the supply line that feeds them their modified or exclusive components (graphics cards, controllers, motherboards, and so on), or the issues that might come from trying to integrate the new chips. Circuit design isn't simple. That's why you typically have to have a degree for it, especially in something like computing.

Im sorry Apple but you can only screw me so long on hardware until enough is enough. you farted around a year when you should have intoduced a G5imac to make up up for years of dicking around with G4 & G3s. No excuse to be extorting Mac user's all these years. Sick of the Crap. Release OSX for Windows if your going to keep pushing Hardware Crap. Im about to order ALIENWARE and then can walk into my neighborhood Wal-Mart for everything i need for it.

Go! Jesus Christ, go and quit spouting this ridiculous rhetoric that Apple will never see, read, or alter their policies over. If you're naive enough to think that a company will change for one person, or alter a successful strategy just because people are whining on boards they don't even own, then we're better off without you. The mac is a premium computer that isn't traded only on speed, even though it is more than swift enough as it stands, for the price points its positioned at. You pay for the design, the experience, the integration, and the ability to use OS X. If you're not willing to pay for that, then stop your crying about it and go vote with your dollars.

You want Apple to hear you? Buy something else.

Duff-Man

Apr 9, 2004, 01:13 AM

Im about to order ALIENWARE and then can walk into my neighborhood Wal-Mart for everything i need for it.Duff-Man says....are you still here? Please, go buy your great alienware computer running that fantastic OS...your whining has become soooooo redundant...oh yeah!

jade

Apr 9, 2004, 02:17 AM

I'm sorry, but not able to handle Garageband? I've been running Pro Tools 6.1 (a REAL audio software program) on Os 10.2.8 on an old dual 500 g4 and it runs fine (could be faster but the machine's 4 years old). I can't even imagine how efficient it would be on a new g5 or even a powerbook g4, no one I know is unhappy with apples for audio processing. Dual 2.0 g5 is plenty of power. However, I wouldn't mind the 2.6, in fact I'm holding out for it. As well as the new 23" HD display. MMMM, MMMM BeeITCH! (As dave would say).

Try out garageband..it will kill even the mightiest pro tools machines. I have used it on emacs, g4 ibooks, 1.6 g5s and powerbooks. You get to about 6-8 virtual instrunment tracks and you have reached system overload...on all of the machines. All of the current machines are fine for protools, but suck for garageband! In fact what I hear is that most pro apps run better on current macs than garage band does. Pretty sad right.

Two solutions
1. new hardware
2. some tweaks so it isn't as processor intensive

Go to your apple store and try about 8 "green tracks" with maybe 3-4 "blue" tracks.....then hit play...watch it stutter, see system overload window. Repeat. I think it is pretty unacceptable.

MrSugar

Apr 9, 2004, 02:55 AM

man have you said it, the software division rules the hardware guys suck a turd, look at Imac,Emac,ibook, and single g5s. not one of these machines comes close to the otherside, Im sorry Apple but you can only screw me so long on hardware until enough is enough. you farted around a year when you should have intoduced a G5imac to make up up for years of dicking around with G4 & G3s. No excuse to be extorting Mac user's all these years. Sick of the Crap. Release OSX for Windows if your going to keep pushing Hardware Crap. Im about to order ALIENWARE and then can walk into my neighborhood Wal-Mart for everything i need for it.

THEN SHUT UP AND DO IT! I AM SO SICK OF THIS! DO IT!!! ORDER YOUR OVER PRICED ALIENWARE AND LEAVE!

In all seriousness, no one around here gives a crap about what computer you pick. Guess what APPLE IS A HARDWARE company, THEY live off hardware.. that is how they EARN MONEY! You are stupid to think they would survive in the PC software market.

Please buy you alienware, and leave.. I don't even have any PC respect for you, you could at least save a thousand dollars and build it yourself, utilize the only real advantage that PC's have over Mac... but no.. you want to pay some overpriced PC maker for big plastic lit up flashy case! GOOD, DO IT! Please go run XP and enjoy talking on these forums about how fast your computer is running counter-strike.... NOBODY CARES!

gossas

Apr 9, 2004, 04:34 AM

Also, just to be fair, I'm willing to accept that people have perfectly aceptable, and even pleasant, experiences with Windows, just as I'm willing to grant that you could be having as many issues with macs as you say you are. I know that they happen, but they just don't seem to happen to me, or to anyone I know.

Seems you're the common factor with these winders problems. ;)

thatwendigo

Apr 9, 2004, 05:51 AM

Seems you're the common factor with these winders problems. ;)

I'm only common, in that I'm the one who has to figure out what they've screwed up this time. That, and I bring my iBook with me to test networks, and so on, since it plays nicer than Windows does.

Although, there was the story I never quite told... I have a very Neo-like power over the PIIIs that my school bought, years ago, when I was still in a public system (highschool). I could walk by a classroom, hold out my hand and say 'crash,' and the machine would within an hour. I'd always go back and check with the teacher, under the guise of trying to help them with the problem. :D

Of course, the sysadmin at my school was a moron. It was far less likely that a given machine would be working properly, with no issues, than it was that we'd get any use out of them. Blah. The PPC 9600 in the photography department was so much more useful...

NOV

Apr 9, 2004, 06:19 AM

aswitcher

Apr 9, 2004, 07:32 AM

THEN SHUT UP AND DO IT! I AM SO SICK OF THIS! DO IT!!! ORDER YOUR OVER PRICED ALIENWARE AND LEAVE!

:eek:

And I thought you would have a sweet tounge :p

Anyway, I agree with the sentiment...

form

Apr 9, 2004, 01:02 PM

On another thread, I remember posting that they could wait until june or july before doing any power mac updates; however, I wasn't really convinced, at the time, that they would, or should, wait so long...Any news confirming that they are going to wait until June to announce updates, is probably much more likely accurate, whether by accident or knowledge, than anything which portended sooner releases.

It also means a power mac refresh cycle of 1 year. I wonder if that will be the normal refresh frequency from now on.

On the good side, it could mean that Steve really is going to keep that promise of 3ghz by the same time next year, seeing as how announcing something in june WWDC, would coincide with the exact time he claimed they would be at 3ghz..

Now, We bring you back to your regularly scheduled program: Off-topic badmouthing. Carry on.

jade

Apr 9, 2004, 03:03 PM

It's insane to compare GB to PT, because GB heavily relies on the internal processor and PT relies heavily on the DSP farm.

OK makes sense...but it still doesn't make up for the fact that current Apple products can't hang with GB. :confused:

Bhennies

Apr 9, 2004, 04:14 PM

Try out garageband..it will kill even the mightiest pro tools machines. I have used it on emacs, g4 ibooks, 1.6 g5s and powerbooks. You get to about 6-8 virtual instrunment tracks and you have reached system overload...on all of the machines. All of the current machines are fine for protools, but suck for garageband! In fact what I hear is that most pro apps run better on current macs than garage band does. Pretty sad right.

Two solutions
1. new hardware
2. some tweaks so it isn't as processor intensive

Go to your apple store and try about 8 "green tracks" with maybe 3-4 "blue" tracks.....then hit play...watch it stutter, see system overload window. Repeat. I think it is pretty unacceptable.I trust you...and I understand where you're coming from. I guess I don't understand why people would use Garageband then. The problem seems to be with the software, not the hardware.

I played around with it in the store the other day, and it seems gimmicky and amateurish to me. There are many pro audio apps, both for beginners and professionals, that will run fine, as you say, on the current machines, so why the hell would anyone want Garageband if you can only use 8 tracks without it crapping out? I use 32 tracks in PT with 10-15 Waves plugs (plus others) on a dual 500 Gigabit and it runs slow, but fine.

Gaffa Bug

Apr 9, 2004, 05:35 PM

Apple is fantastic at debuting innovative products... Date of availability is another story. The consensus puts a new PM update at the WWDC in late June, which means an entire year without an update. This is terribly sickening. I have a single processor 867MHz Quicksilver with 1.5GB RAM(sdr) and Radeon 9800 PRO... I've been waiting for an update to make my next purchase, but unfortunately Apple can't get its act together. I've even considered just buying a DP2.0 PM G5, but after auditioning it, was incredibly disappointed. For example, I opened up a couple of apps and hit shift+F11... and what do you know? The dual 2.0 hiccups as much as my 867. Also, a folder containing images/pictures takes FOREVER to display the icon previews. Try moving a large number of files and you'll be forced to laugh. I'm by no definition a power user, but do enjoy the bells and whistles that accompany various tasks. There's no way I would settle for such a small step in performance. BTW: at one of the local Apple Stores I downloaded the UT2004 Demo to see how well it played. Any guesses as to how fluid the motion was??? It sucked! So you're telling me that I can pay $3,000 for an incremental performance step? Well, where do I sign up? The truth is, I'm getting sick of not being able to do the things I want to do (which are relatively simple). It seems Apple will never get things right. They release a nice product and then can’t follow up on it. Either they are having difficulty somewhere in the channel or they just don't care. Who in the hell cares about the over hyped WWDC? If Apple could release a product update at the WWDC, doesn't anyone believe they could have done it sooner? They like to make a big splash and shock everyone... while ignoring the basics of marketing. -I dare also say management. They should release incremental speed bumps as everyone else! On a similar note, it’ll take them six months after the release of the iPOD mini to deliver adequate supply. This is truly sad. Products are to be available to consumers in sufficient quantity at the time of demand… no more, no less. This is just fundamental logic and Apple still has a difficult time following such a principle. The concept of a product life cycle is bitterly askew in the practices of Apple. I'm disgusted enough to jump ship and never look back. It's always been a love/hate relationship with Apple but now I’m getting fed up. It’s eye candy, but that’s all it has become. My next computer will not be a Mac… I’m not ruling it out for the future, but certainly I will build my next PC. –And when Long Horn comes out in ten years time, I’m not sure what will make me switch again. -It certainly won't be a new Finder or the joy of chatting with a bunch of pot smoking hippies who blindly worship a goddamn company. Enjoy jerking each other off to your zealous rhetoric. Thanks for the laughs suckers; I get off here.

~Shard~

Apr 9, 2004, 08:30 PM

THEN SHUT UP AND DO IT! I AM SO SICK OF THIS! DO IT!!! ORDER YOUR OVER PRICED ALIENWARE AND LEAVE!

In all seriousness, no one around here gives a crap about what computer you pick. Guess what APPLE IS A HARDWARE company, THEY live off hardware.. that is how they EARN MONEY! You are stupid to think they would survive in the PC software market.

Please buy you alienware, and leave.. I don't even have any PC respect for you, you could at least save a thousand dollars and build it yourself, utilize the only real advantage that PC's have over Mac... but no.. you want to pay some overpriced PC maker for big plastic lit up flashy case! GOOD, DO IT! Please go run XP and enjoy talking on these forums about how fast your computer is running counter-strike.... NOBODY CARES!

You know, I pride myself on well-thought out, constructive arguments when replying to posts, however I just can't help but like this direct, aggressive and blunt post - well done! :cool:

To support this post, and add a slightly more balanced, rational voice to this position, I agree - Apple would not survive solely in the PC software market - I think this is a fair comment. In addition, I too grow tired of DHM's posts - his posts essentially say the same thing over and over. I don't mind hearing your opinion DHM, but please quit rehashing the same topics over and over. You complain about fellow forum members like thatwendigo always jumping in and arguing with you (although I believe a more accurate term would be "correcting" you), yet what do you expect when you make the same comments over and over?

Regardless, MrSugar is correct - one of the benefits of buying a PC over a Mac is indeed the cost savings involved with building your own system, along with the fact that you can customize your components, etc. - buying an Alienware system or the like definitely takes this advantage away.

And honestly DHM, what do you need a top-of-the-line system for? Gaming? Bragging rights? Or Pro applications (movie editing, rendering, sound editing, CAD design) which you base your livelihood on? I am assuming (and please correct me if I am wrong) that it is the former and not the latter.

Oh, and before you start rehashing your standard comebacks such as "here come the Mac zealots!" or "here are the foolish Mac fans getting all defensive!" like you usually do, please realize that in my post I have not made one single comment regarding Macs being superior, etc. etc. etc., so don't even try it. :cool:

AppleJustWorks

Apr 9, 2004, 09:16 PM

*Nods* *Claps* :eek:

kobiashi

Apr 9, 2004, 10:45 PM

Well...after considering that the updates are not likely till WWDC at end of June...and that it usually takes Apple 2-3 months to actually have something after they announce it, I decided to order a Dual 1.8 and 23" Cinema Display, which will arrive at my house tomorrow.

What with an additional 1 Gig of Ram FREE (from MacConnection...and NO SALES TAX), and the 500 dollar rebate from Apple, I decided that was a good deal. (So it's 1.8 with 1.5 Gig Ram and 23" HD display for 4,025.00)

I will use it for Photoshop and Painter. It will be plenty fast enough...

Every excited...have to share!!!!!

nightcap965

Apr 9, 2004, 11:32 PM

You are going to love the 23" Cinema Display. I came to the same conclusion you did a couple weeks ago when Apple started the current promotion. Getting the 23" (Barbie's Drive-In Theater) display for $500 off was the clincher for me. It's nice to have plenty of room to stretch out in.

Enjoy!

Well...after considering that the updates are not likely till WWDC at end of June...and that it usually takes Apple 2-3 months to actually have something after they announce it, I decided to order a Dual 1.8 and 23" Cinema Display, which will arrive at my house tomorrow.

What with an additional 1 Gig of Ram FREE (from MacConnection...and NO SALES TAX), and the 500 dollar rebate from Apple, I decided that was a good deal. (So it's 1.8 with 1.5 Gig Ram and 23" HD display for 4,025.00)

I will use it for Photoshop and Painter. It will be plenty fast enough...

Every excited...have to share!!!!!

raven13mb

Apr 10, 2004, 02:31 AM

I purchased a system on ebay from a pretty reliable seller. Shipping apparently takes time but all of his customers are thrilled with the buys they've gotten. I puchased a Dual 2.0 (1gig/ram) with a 23" cinema display from him for $4000 shipping included. Check out his other auctions for a similar deal. My auction was 'won' at $4300 but he offered $400 dollars off w/o FCP, plus $100 shipping ($4000). Here's the link if any of you are interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4121140342&category=51036&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWN%3AIT&rd=1

thatwendigo

Apr 10, 2004, 02:47 AM

I have a single processor 867MHz Quicksilver with 1.5GB RAM(sdr) and Radeon 9800 PRO... I've been waiting for an update to make my next purchase, but unfortunately Apple can't get its act together. I've even considered just buying a DP2.0 PM G5, but after auditioning it, was incredibly disappointed. For example, I opened up a couple of apps and hit shift+F11... and what do you know? The dual 2.0 hiccups as much as my 867.

Hiccups? My 700mhz eMac doesn't 'hiccup' on Shift+F11, though it's not as smooth as on the 1.4ghz G4 I have in the other room as a gaming machine. I use this thing as my daily computer, because it fits on the desk in my room and the footprint it a lot nicer in an already cluttered space (and I own it completely, rather than the sharing I do on the tower :cool:).

Also, a folder containing images/pictures takes FOREVER to display the icon previews. Try moving a large number of files and you'll be forced to laugh. I'm by no definition a power user, but do enjoy the bells and whistles that accompany various tasks. There's no way I would settle for such a small step in performance.

You must be doing something wrong, yet again. I don't have all that much trouble, and I'm on a measly 700mhz G4 with a PATA drive.

BTW: at one of the local Apple Stores I downloaded the UT2004 Demo to see how well it played. Any guesses as to how fluid the motion was??? It sucked!

Coding errors, and a bug in the game itself. If you set a certain option off, the framerate doubles to the rate it should be at. You can't blame that on Apple.

So... Moving right along to your next illogical statement...

So you're telling me that I can pay $3,000 for an incremental performance step? Well, where do I sign up? The truth is, I'm getting sick of not being able to do the things I want to do (which are relatively simple).

How often do I have to repeat this? If Apple doesn't do what you want them to, then go find a company that does. Computers are tools, as someone says in their signature, and there has to be one out there that at least gets close to what you want it to do. Sure, it won't be perfect, if what you want is OS X and some ridiculous gaming performance, but that's just the breaks. Life isn't fair.

It seems Apple will never get things right. They release a nice product and then can’t follow up on it. Either they are having difficulty somewhere in the channel or they just don't care. Who in the hell cares about the over hyped WWDC? If Apple could release a product update at the WWDC, doesn't anyone believe they could have done it sooner? They like to make a big splash and shock everyone... while ignoring the basics of marketing. -I dare also say management. They should release incremental speed bumps as everyone else!

People don't buy macs the way that the general market buys computer. The average mac user tends to wait an extra year or two longer than a PC user, and so the extra costs of bumping aren't offset by the business you seem to think it would generate. What you want isn't even feasible in the mac market, short of a major revamping of how everyone around Apple reacts to them, including their suppliers.

I'm disgusted enough to jump ship and never look back. It's always been a love/hate relationship with Apple but now I’m getting fed up. It’s eye candy, but that’s all it has become. My next computer will not be a Mac… I’m not ruling it out for the future, but certainly I will build my next PC. –And when Long Horn comes out in ten years time, I’m not sure what will make me switch again.

Bye.

I hope you got it out of your system and quit rehashing the same ignorant, repetitive, and completely pointless claptrap that we're getting from all you 'fed up' people who never jump. Why don't you quit whining and do something real?

Order or build your computer, copy the shipping manifest, take pictures of your new wonder machine beside your mac, and send them and a nasty letter to Apple. Be sure to highlight the price. Print out what you think is an equally equipped mac, highlight the price of it, and be sure to staple them together when you send the packet, because what I don't seem to be able to get up with all the complainers is that the only thing you do that will matter is if you vote with your dollars.

--

Oh, and Shard... Beautiful, man.

Gaffa Bug

Apr 10, 2004, 03:49 AM

Hiccups? My 700mhz eMac doesn't 'hiccup' on Shift+F11, though it's not as smooth as on the 1.4ghz G4 I have in the other room as a gaming machine. I use this thing as my daily computer, because it fits on the desk in my room and the footprint it a lot nicer in an already cluttered space (and I own it completely, rather than the sharing I do on the tower :cool:).

You must be doing something wrong, yet again. I don't have all that much trouble, and I'm on a measly 700mhz G4 with a PATA drive.

Coding errors, and a bug in the game itself. If you set a certain option off, the framerate doubles to the rate it should be at. You can't blame that on Apple.

So... Moving right along to your next illogical statement...

How often do I have to repeat this? If Apple doesn't do what you want them to, then go find a company that does. Computers are tools, as someone says in their signature, and there has to be one out there that at least gets close to what you want it to do. Sure, it won't be perfect, if what you want is OS X and some ridiculous gaming performance, but that's just the breaks. Life isn't fair.

People don't buy macs the way that the general market buys computer. The average mac user tends to wait an extra year or two longer than a PC user, and so the extra costs of bumping aren't offset by the business you seem to think it would generate. What you want isn't even feasible in the mac market, short of a major revamping of how everyone around Apple reacts to them, including their suppliers.

Bye.

I hope you got it out of your system and quit rehashing the same ignorant, repetitive, and completely pointless claptrap that we're getting from all you 'fed up' people who never jump. Why don't you quit whining and do something real?

Order or build your computer, copy the shipping manifest, take pictures of your new wonder machine beside your mac, and send them and a nasty letter to Apple. Be sure to highlight the price. Print out what you think is an equally equipped mac, highlight the price of it, and be sure to staple them together when you send the packet, because what I don't seem to be able to get up with all the complainers is that the only thing you do that will matter is if you vote with your dollars.

--

Oh, and Shard... Beautiful, man.

link (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zealot)

thatwendigo

Apr 10, 2004, 04:31 AM

link (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zealot)

Response (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=troll)

I mean, seriously... What kind of answer was that? I gave you some serious answers, and just like DHM and his cronies, you drop to a single personal attack against anyone who disagrees with you.

~Shard~

Apr 10, 2004, 09:10 AM

link (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zealot)

Wow, that reply took a lot of effort. :rolleyes: Funny, I viewed a completely different thread in which you used the exact same reply - as a result, I'm now trying to determine if you are simply lazy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lazy) and don't feel like typing up a thorough (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=thorough) reply, or if you simply cannot directly and constructively address the comments that have been made.

I'm not getting into your and thatwendigo's debate, but when I read a comprehensive reply like the one above, regardless of what is being said and whether I agree with it or not, I feel that deserves an intelligent reply back, not a simple link to an incorrect and heavily overused (and misused) statement.

numediaman

Apr 10, 2004, 09:37 AM

Maybe we can find some middle ground here without adding to the flame wars:

I priced out a pro-level Dell workstation and there is no question that the G5 is not only competitive, but less expensive as well. (And, of course, there is the OS.) I'm sure you could argue about specs, but the fact is that once you get away from the mass-marketed boxes, prices rise pretty quickly.

That is why I decided in December to stick with Apple for my next desktop.

But . . .

The critics have valid points, as well. The line is long in the tooth. Yes, the iBooks were fairly recently updated -- but they are not exactly speed burners, are they? And while the G5s aren't that old, the fact is that rumors have been circulating since December of updates around the corner. I'm sure this hasn't helped sales -- I know I regret not buying the dual 1.8 right after MWSF when we learned there would be no updates.

I say, let the critics complain -- at least they care. As for the true believers, its great that you love your Macs (so do I), but let's not drive away any customers -- there are fewer of us every day.

AidenShaw

Apr 10, 2004, 10:53 AM

I priced out a pro-level Dell workstation and there is no question that the G5 is not only competitive, but less expensive as well.

</sarcasm>

thatwendigo

Apr 10, 2004, 10:55 AM

I priced out a pro-level Dell workstation and there is no question that the G5 is not only competitive, but less expensive as well. (And, of course, there is the OS.) I'm sure you could argue about specs, but the fact is that once you get away from the mass-marketed boxes, prices rise pretty quickly.

This is what I keep trying to point out, but people don't seem to want to listen to. If you take any OEM that actually has a hardware margin, spec out a PC that is competitive with the G5, and compare the two, then the PC will end up being more expensive. Sure, the performance is going to be interestingly fluctuating between the two (depending on task), but the point is that the G5 is still a damn fine machine after a year of the same configuration.

The critics have valid points, as well. The line is long in the tooth. Yes, the iBooks were fairly recently updated -- but they are not exactly speed burners, are they? And while the G5s aren't that old, the fact is that rumors have been circulating since December of updates around the corner. I'm sure this hasn't helped sales -- I know I regret not buying the dual 1.8 right after MWSF when we learned there would be no updates.

Fair enough, at least at first. The line hasn't ben updated in a year, and I won't try to deny or really even defen that fact. Apple obviously has something going on that we're not party to, and it could be that the hardware is just going to get bumped at WWDC, or it could be that the target for the summer is off. We don't know - and that goes for all of us, including me. However, you can't blame Apple for the rumors, and it's entirely unfair to be mad at them because you read on a website somewhere that Apple might, just might, be updating their line at X date because a shadowy, nameless source says so.

This is the internet. Why do people take what's said like it's fact, when there's no accountable source attached?

I say, let the critics complain -- at least they care. As for the true believers, its great that you love your Macs (so do I), but let's not drive away any customers -- there are fewer of us every day.

Complaining is one thing, lying and spreading FUD are another. I don't mind the first, but I will not sit idle for the second, because that is what will drive away potential new users. Every screed on the theme of 'macs are slower, overpriced junk,' 'AMD is the saviour of computing,' and so on, is one that shouldn't be made because it might confuse someone who isn't as informed as some of us are.

As for their being fewer of us... You're wrong, again. Apple is at an all-time high of userbase, even if the share of current sales is lower than it has been. That's because the market boomed, and Apple didn't grow proportionall, not because the company is at all dying. People don't understand marketshare, and they keep getting into a tizzy because they pay attention to the wrong figures.

Now I leave for work. Thanks for a more reasonable respose, though. :cool:

jade

Apr 10, 2004, 01:06 PM

This is what I keep trying to point out, but people don't seem to want to listen to. If you take any OEM that actually has a hardware margin, spec out a PC that is competitive with the G5, and compare the two, then the PC will end up being more expensive. Sure, the performance is going to be interestingly fluctuating between the two (depending on task), but the point is that the G5 is still a damn fine machine after a year of the same configuration.

Now I leave for work. Thanks for a more reasonable respose, though. :cool:

Well I think the bigger issue is, even though g5s are price competitive with the other pro level workstations in price and specs....but most people do not need or want or even look at workstation-level computers. And even though Apple has a high percentae of pro users...those of us looking at consumer machine get left in the dust....... and have to buy a pro machine to get a separate monitor. (but that is a different thread)

Even though intel-land hasn't made huge progress over the past year....leaving computer confirgurations and prices the same 9 months later, well it is ridiculous, because over the course of time since the g5s have been upated standard ram, hard drive, vram, and optical drive speed has inceased significantly. And those are the key easy to upgrade areas that are lacking in the current pro lineup. If the new speed bumps aren't ready, you can always add more value by speeding up the optical drive or putting in a bigger hard drive.

form

Apr 10, 2004, 03:07 PM

I agree with gaffa, based on personal experience, not limited to the next example:

One fine early autumn day on the year of 2003, I meandered somehow - barely escaping the edges of the automatic doors with my person, and attracting the inevitable leers from the security officer who seems always to be sitting just inside, watching, waiting...probably for me - I meandered into a not-so-nearby compusa, carrying upon my person a small amount of cash, a large amount of curiosity, and 2 overstuffed pants pockets containing a fearfully misshapen group of odds and ends (I begin to perceive a second motive for the security's close scrutiny of me). As I entered the building, I swerved right. Right to the mac section. They had several demo g5s that day, and I was wishing to see them for myself. I hastened my pace to a canter, with my eyes staring, wondering, towards the nearest g5 box. When I got within examining distance, I noticed, in fact, the very first thing that caught my eye was, they were...bigger. Much bigger, both in appearance and in measurement, than the last generation. Eh, tolerable, I thought, that's ok, I understand that they have those smoking processors to keep cool in there, so I can deal. I'd just have to move the scanner completely off the desk, and onto my directly adjacent pile of dirty clothes. Better underside ventilation anyway.

I liked the older design better as far as beauty, but I had to admit, the new case was much less subject to plastic fracture-related damage. Turns out this was a 1.8 ghz g5. On the screen of that 1.8ghz g5, they were looping that really stupid commercial where the guy gets blown out of his house, and they follow the holes in the walls to the source - a g5 - well, I couldn't help noticing that, at 320x240, that movie just kept skipping frames like nuts on their 1.8 g5. Is it supposed to do that? I hope that it's only a compusa thing, that somehow they install stuff on the computer that makes it function poorly...I checked a few other things. Opens a little faster than my 400mhz g3, yes...didn't have photoshop there, though, or any games...so my experimenting time was limited mostly to attempting to get the frame skipping to stop, by adjusting the movie size, checking parameters, turning off loop, and so on...no luck. Anyway.

I am disappointed as well, by such marginal improvements that apple always gives, and with the very long, delayed timeframes in which they give them, and finally, I am disappointed by the price which they charge for them, each time.

And I also realized recently that, even if I got a new g5, I'd have to get Maya as well, for 3d, because Lightwave currently has major issues with X.3, issues which make it unusable. Isn't that funny, having such a strong selling point, one they even pushed on their website at one time, now not work usably on their latest and greatest?

Upon browsing, within 30 minutes of this post, through their power mac hardware area, I noticed that they aren't advertising any 3d apps anymore as highlights for the mac platform...can't imagine why.

I dunno, apple, you've got me depressed about computers; and we all know what the best way of getting over certain object-originating depressions is: To desist ownership or use of that object.

One trait, direct from apple's announcement and release habits, has rubbed off on me, for sure, and it is summed up in this phrase: I'll get around to it, eventually....but for the time being, other matters are simply more important to me.

thatwendigo

Apr 10, 2004, 08:50 PM

Well I think the bigger issue is, even though g5s are price competitive with the other pro level workstations in price and specs....but most people do not need or want or even look at workstation-level computers. And even though Apple has a high percentae of pro users...those of us looking at consumer machine get left in the dust....... and have to buy a pro machine to get a separate monitor. (but that is a different thread)

Personally, I see no problem with this. If you don't want to buy what's on offer, then don't. It isn't Apple's responsibility to cater to every single desire in the market, nor do I think they really should branch back out much further than they already have. Simplicity is the Apple watchword, and I like it that way.

Even though intel-land hasn't made huge progress over the past year....leaving computer confirgurations and prices the same 9 months later, well it is ridiculous, because over the course of time since the g5s have been upated standard ram, hard drive, vram, and optical drive speed has inceased significantly. And those are the key easy to upgrade areas that are lacking in the current pro lineup. If the new speed bumps aren't ready, you can always add more value by speeding up the optical drive or putting in a bigger hard drive.

True, though I think that there are a couple of points in there that ought to be considered. While RAM, HDs, and and optical drives are largely cross-compatible these days (very, very few exceptions, and those are almost universally opticals), there is still a serious issue with VRAM/GPUs and the production thereof. For whatever reason, we don't get drivers and hardware as swiftly as the PC market, and that's going to make things comparatively hard on Applem who likely is paying a premium for what they get already. If you think that a mac is expensive now, I'd hate to see what ATI would charge for 9800 XTs or R450s right out of the gate, when they have to write drivers and solder on ADC connectors.

[QUOTE=form]I agree with gaffa, based on personal experience, not limited to the next example:

I almost stopped reading, right there, since gaffa's argument was pretty ridiculous, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Turns out this was a 1.8 ghz g5. On the screen of that 1.8ghz g5, they were looping that really stupid commercial where the guy gets blown out of his house, and they follow the holes in the walls to the source - a g5 - well, I couldn't help noticing that, at 320x240, that movie just kept skipping frames like nuts on their 1.8 g5. Is it supposed to do that? I hope that it's only a compusa thing, that somehow they install stuff on the computer that makes it function poorly...I checked a few other things. Opens a little faster than my 400mhz g3, yes...didn't have photoshop there, though, or any games...so my experimenting time was limited mostly to attempting to get the frame skipping to stop, by adjusting the movie size, checking parameters, turning off loop, and so on...no luck. Anyway.

A few things to consider:

1) In early autumn, there would have been no dual 1.8ghz G5s. The G5 truly shines in the dual system, and the single processors are faster than G4s, but not blazingly so. As such, you were likely using 512MB RAM, a single 1.8ghz, and a Geforce FX 5200. That's not an incredible leap over the G4 towers in terms of the UI, but still an improvement. What you'd have seen the most improvement in was disk tasks, I/O, and purely processor-intensive processes.

2) Someone could have done something to the machine, the RAM might have been eaten up (my machine has 512 MB, and I tend to operate around 280-300MB actively used when I've been up for a while and doing things, because of the caching that OS X does), or there could have been a fault.

3) The G5s I've used haven't had this problem, and were smooth as silk. That probably doesn't count for much, but it's true.

And I also realized recently that, even if I got a new g5, I'd have to get Maya as well, for 3d, because Lightwave currently has major issues with X.3, issues which make it unusable. Isn't that funny, having such a strong selling point, one they even pushed on their website at one time, now not work usably on their latest and greatest?

:rolleyes:

Right, so it's Apple's fault that a third party didn't optimize properly, when all kinds of workshops were given at WWDC (and afterwards) on how to optimize for the new processors... Please.

Upon browsing, within 30 minutes of this post, through their power mac hardware area, I noticed that they aren't advertising any 3d apps anymore as highlights for the mac platform...can't imagine why.

FinalCut Pro plays 7 streams in real time (http://www.apple.com/powermac/)
Photoshop CS filter tests show G5 leads (http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/)
Bibble format decode shows G5 lead (http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/)
Logic allows over 135 plugins simultaneously on G5 (http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/)

I don't see Lightwave, Maya, or Renderman on the list anymore, and I concede that... However, I can throw out a single explanation that may or may not be true (I'm not a graphics professional, so I'm just guessing here)... On consumer grade cards, PCs can use DirectX calls to access the graphics cards, but we can't, and I've been reading a couple of stories about how some companies want to try to code things to take more advantage of GPUs for general computing.

Also, as most people will readily agree, the PowerPC has traditionally been a better performer in vector and floating point. I don't know for certain if the integer performance of the x86 world would play much of a factor, but that huge cache on the P4EE probably would.