Apple Portable Updates?

[MacRumors]

Appleinsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=414) that Apple is also working on both iBook and PowerBook G4 product lines.

Details are vague, and simply predict speed bumps to both the iBook and PowerBook lines, without major revisions.

The PowerBook revision is still expected to utilize the PowerPC G4 processor.

[Linksgolfer84]

Is there ever a time where Apple is not working on their next product release... c'mon, stop releasing such garbage as rumors.

[nsb3000]

Is there ever a time where Apple is not working on their next product release... c'mon, stop releasing such garbage as rumors.

Ya I want to see Macrumors have this headline: "Apple decides Powermac, Powerbook lines "done"; decides to focus all attention on new colors of ipods"

[Some_Big_Spoon]

As Homer says: Boring! (http://www.jahozafat.com/cgi-bin/tvwavs.cgi?Simpsons=boring.wav)

[Some_Big_Spoon]

Wait, didn't that happen already?

Ya I want to see Macrumors have this headline: "Apple decides Powermac, Powerbook lines "done"; decides to focus all attention on new colors of ipods"

[Ambrose Chapel]

yeah this is getting kind of absurd..it's like a barren desert of rumors. i hope As the Apple Turns' whispers of "something huge in April" pans out...

[Scenicroadways]

I know these rumors can get boring and everyones waiting on the G5 powerbook, but as long as the G4 is still making money and is fast enough, there not going to switch to G5 that soon.

[nsb3000]

Wait, didn't that happen already?

Right... I can just see Steve now at the WWDC, after going over the sales figures and the normal boring "lets glorify what we already know" stuff, insted of previewing 10.4, he would use the "just one more thing" thing to introduce a whole new line of ipods, with slightly different colors. "This changes everything" he would say! Imagine that!

Maybe there will even be a "proPod" service to let you get repairs and service done the same day! (For a yearly membership of only $79 of course)

The possibilities are endless... :eek:

[Spagolli94]

Why do they feel the need to post yet another non-rumor. Duh, when are they not working on updates? Why can't they just say, "No rumors today, check back next year."

[Billy_ca]

I'm going to buy my first Mac as soon as they update the iBooks.

I can't wait! It has been taking forever!

[BornAgainMac]

The powerbooks shouldn't hold back the iMac having a G5. Think of the G4 as the portable version of the G5 for this year. I hate reading about people that feel the pro laptops should have the G5 first before the consumer iMac. If it isn't possible then desktops should get the G5 and laptops should get the G4. Perhaps have a low cost G3 desktop for the home without a monitor. iMac is priced high enough anyways to be considered semi-pro.

[ij3ffy]

Yeah.. They just got to stop bringing these rumors to the table. I've been hearing about this nonsense the last month and a half, first it was late Feb. Then it was early March, then mid-March, then Late March, Then so on.. Without any reliable proof, they are just wasting everyones time. Certainly as time passes, its easier to say powerbooks are due soon. Thats not a rumor, or inside information, its just a mathematical probability.

[patriotn11]

:confused:
I am a PC user wanting to switch to Apple. I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.

Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.

any other advise is appreciated

Michael
san antonio, tx :)

[MikeH]

Hmm, not exactly news, more what you'd expect Apple to be doing given previous comments from them (ie. No G5's in laptops anytime soon).

On a slightly different note what's going on with the G5 desktops? When they were launched Jobs said they'd be up to 3ghz by the following year. Well another few months and the year is up and so far no updates at all. Are they just going get a 50% speed hike?

Sorry for going off topic there, just wanted to get it off my chest...

[BornAgainMac]

Transparent mini ipods on Tuesday. "View the unremovable battery and hard drive and circuit board while you listen to your favorite music."

I hope new stuff other than new iPods get introduced next week.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

From Life of Brian:

FOLLOWERS:
He is! He is the Messiah!
BRIAN:
Now, **** off!
[silence]
ARTHUR:
How shall we **** off, O Lord?

Parallels? :rolleyes:

[Steven1621]

NO WAY!!!! i wouldn't have thought!

[snofseth]

Transparent mini ipods on Tuesday. "View the unremovable battery and hard drive and circuit board while you listen to your favorite music."

I hope new stuff other than new iPods get introduced next week.

New Ipods wouldn't be that bad either, I would get a new top of the line one as soon as they came out thanks to the compusa tap, but the powerbooks and all the rumors and nothing coming out is rediculous. But who cares about a G4 powerbook, when is the G5 coming?

[spullara]

Switching from 256K L2 / 1M L3 to 512k L2 destroyed Java performance. There is a good reason that the desktop machines have 2M L3 per processor.

Sam

[pjkelnhofer]

I guess there really is nothing coming anytime soon from Apple and we are going to have to wait until WWDC. Maybe everything will get updated quickly after that (we can only hope).
Doesn't really matter to me, though, as I have decided to buy a house rather than a new G5. Literally, I decided to put the $3000 into my down payment and keep my G3 iMac for a few more years (I will just have to hope that 10.4 runs on the G3).
Still, though it would be nice to see Apple update something.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

The Don't Actually (http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html)
It's been said, rightfully so, that Apple didn't use the 7457 because it did suppor L3, and they didn't want questions as to why the PB's had L3 and the Desktops didn't.


Switching from 256K L2 / 1M L3 to 512k L2 destroyed Java performance. There is a good reason that the desktop machines have 2M L3 per processor.

Sam

[PlaceofDis]

no offence but:

blah ba-blah blah blah

[coolfactor]

:confused:
I am a PC user wanting to switch to Apple. I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.

Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.

any other advise is appreciated

Michael
san antonio, tx :)

Way to change the subject. I was beginning to get depressed with everybody complaining.

The Powerbook you saw was probably a demo model and had been handled a bit. This "gap" you speak of.. between the screen and the keyboard chassis? My iBook has a slight tilt to the screen hing, but it's hardly a concern, and peeople still love looking at it, but my question is this.... why would your laptop ever need to be closed? LOL You're supposed to use it!

Don't know much about book-writing software. Wouldn't a good word processor do the trick?

Before I go... welcome aboard the Mac-train!

[Stella]

I have more faith with AppleInsider rumours than PowerPage.. one thing is certain - Apple will update iBooks and PowerBooks... eventually!

[Koodauw]

no offence but:

blah ba-blah blah blah

I'll second that. What a poor job by Apple. Whats it going to take to light a fire under their a**es.

What happened to the "exciting year?"

[Billicus]

Apple is also working on both iBook and PowerBook G4 product lines.


No kidding!...:eek:

[noel4r]

What's with AppleInsider lately? First, they said new hardware were coming, then some news about a dry spell, then they said new hardware were still coming, then they said earlier that there is a delay on the PowerMacs and now this?

[michaelrjohnson]

What happened to the "exciting year?"

it's only april?

[applekid]

You think Apple will release all of this hardware in one swoop? Everything (according to the Buyer's Guide) says that products are either approaching the end of their cycle or updates are imminent except for the XServe and iPod.

As long as we don't have to wait for the WWDC or a MacWorld, why not?

[Snowy_River]

I know these rumors can get boring and everyones waiting on the G5 powerbook, but as long as the G4 is still making money and is fast enough, there not going to switch to G5 that soon.

Are you saying that Apple could release G5 PowerBooks right now if they wanted to? If the felt the G4 was too slow? Somehow, I really doubt Apple is doing that. They know that there is a huge potential market of people waiting to by their next PB until the G5PB is released, and I'm sure that they want to capture that market. However, they want to do it with Apple style. Perhaps they could release a G5 PowerBook akin to the eMachine Athlon 64 processor, weighing in at 8 lbs., and nearly doubling the thickness, but it wouldn't have the same style that Apple aims for. I know that there are those who believe that Apple shouldn't be quite so focused on such things, but that's part of how they've made their mark. To change now could be devastating.

[bubbagump]

Maybe Apple has just really cracked down on leaks. They were really ticked off when the G5s showed up on their store early, so maybe they have finally got the message around that leaking information is not "career enhancing."

Bubba

[Dave the Great]

I know these rumors can get boring and everyones waiting on the G5 powerbook, but as long as the G4 is still making money and is fast enough, there not going to switch to G5 that soon.

Why wouldn't they switch?

As I mentioned in a previous post, eMachines just came out with a second revision of their Athlon 64 notebooks.

In fact, I just read a blurb that Athlon will soon be releasing another version of mobile Athlon 64 chips with much lower wattage than their current mobile Athlon 64 chips.

If eMachines has 4 product updates since the last Powerbook update and 2 of them have been with 64 bit processors, my question is ...

What is going on at Apple?

Possibly, if Apple would have released and shipped new PBs in Jan. or Feb., an updated G4 would have been ok, but now were at the point a G4 would just just be devasting - a huge disappointment.

I can't justify spending an enormous premium on technology that is considered ancient by today's standards.

[Dave the Great]

Are you saying that Apple could release G5 PowerBooks right now if they wanted to? If the felt the G4 was too slow? Somehow, I really doubt Apple is doing that. They know that there is a huge potential market of people waiting to by their next PB until the G5PB is released, and I'm sure that they want to capture that market. However, they want to do it with Apple style. Perhaps they could release a G5 PowerBook akin to the eMachine Athlon 64 processor, weighing in at 8 lbs., and nearly doubling the thickness, but it wouldn't have the same style that Apple aims for. I know that there are those who believe that Apple shouldn't be quite so focused on such things, but that's part of how they've made their mark. To change now could be devastating.

I disagree. There is a huge market out there clammoring for desktop replacement notebooks.

Actually, I thought that was currently the largest buying segment in the market right now.

Oh, yeah, I forgot Apple doesn't want to increase its user base, so its taking a pass on this segment of the market.

If I could have an Apple G5 right now weighing the 7.5 lbs and is 1.6" thick as the eMachines does, I will take it and so would a lot of other people.

Possibly, Apple could come out with a 3rd line of notebooks - iBook for entry level, cost conscious consumers, PowerBook for the need of power users with extreme portability in mind, and xxxxxx for the people that need all the power of a desktop that has some portability in mind.

[patriotn11]

Way to change the subject. I was beginning to get depressed with everybody complaining.

The Powerbook you saw was probably a demo model and had been handled a bit. This "gap" you speak of.. between the screen and the keyboard chassis? My iBook has a slight tilt to the screen hing, but it's hardly a concern, and peeople still love looking at it, but my question is this.... why would your laptop ever need to be closed? LOL You're supposed to use it!

Don't know much about book-writing software. Wouldn't a good word processor do the trick?

Before I go... welcome aboard the Mac-train!


I thank you, Go Bruins...........Boston of Course

[jaw04005]

I'm really hoping the reason for the delays is Apple wants to have sufficient quantity to ship at the time of annoucement. At least, I hope thats the reason. I get tired of Apple announcing a product and then shipping the product 3 or 4 months later.. that gets old.

I placed an order for an iPod Mini (Green) and an iPod Mini (Blue) a week after they were introduced. The blue model shipped a few weeks ago (about a week later than Apple originally stated) but the green model has yet to ship, and I received an email two days ago stating it would be delayed another 3 to 4 weeks.. needless to say I canceled the order.

:(

[scem0]

AppleInsider has gone to ****.

What is up with them releasing so many hardware rumors, all of which are false? :confused:

gah. :rolleyes:

scem0

[Dave the Great]

:confused:
I am a PC user wanting to switch to Apple. I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.

Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.

any other advise is appreciated

Michael
san antonio, tx :)


Since this is sort of a wishlist/what do you think the next PB will have ?

I will add my own..

Do you think the next version of PBs will add right/left button support and maybe a scroll zone area to the touchpad?

[Azoblue]

Switching from 256K L2 / 1M L3 to 512k L2 destroyed Java performance. There is a good reason that the desktop machines have 2M L3 per processor.

Sam

THANK YOU. Not only does the complete lack of L3 and mediocre increase of L2 in the Alum. compared to the Titanium affect Java, but pretty much ANY realtime rendering.... cheap bastids. Cutting corners angers me. These Alum PBs may be pretty, but there's alot the public doesn't know about quality. And that's what apple is relying on.

I've almost had it with apple. Firing all the channel reps in Canada and the States, leaving the resellers in the dark, and even leaving the consumers with NOTHING. whoopdy freakin do iPod mini. These ***** little increases in speed for the PB line in the last year is pathetic, not to mention the performance for a so-called PRO machine is CRAP. We were much better off with the titanium. I'm at the point where I might as well get a 3.4 Ghz PC laptop 1600x1200 15" screen/ 64 or 128MB ded. Graphics Card/ built in everything/ remote/ DECENT SOUND/ for the price of 15" PB... the more I look at it, the more apple seems ridiculous. AND I WORK FOR AN APPLE RESELLER. Goes to show how well they treat the ones who sell their product.

It feels good to rant, but it solves nothing. I just wish Apple got it's act together and cease to be so unreliable and inaccessible. I'm at the end of my rope, and I'm a few brain cells away from switching to PC.

EDIT: Jobs vowed that there will never be any multiple button mice with an apple logo on it. soo, basically no. There wont be.

[afields]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

<wipes drool of face, mumbles incoherently>

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

[Snowy_River]

I disagree. There is a huge market out there clammoring for desktop replacement notebooks.

Actually, I thought that was currently the largest buying segment in the market right now.

Oh, yeah, I forgot Apple doesn't want to increase its user base, so its taking a pass on this segment of the market.

If I could have an Apple G5 right now weighing the 7.5 lbs and is 1.6" thick as the eMachines does, I will take it and so would a lot of other people.

Possibly, Apple could come out with a 3rd line of notebooks - iBook for entry level, cost conscious consumers, PowerBook for the need of power users with extreme portability in mind, and xxxxxx for the people that need all the power of a desktop that has some portability in mind.

Maybe called the DeskBook? You know, I agree with you. I think that Apple could do well to expand their horizons a little. While the old days of the multiple product lines might have been confusing, it did allow for more flexibility for the final user. How many PowerBook lines were available concurrently before the introduction of the G3 Series? And those were more than just different in clock speed and overall footprint.

[Snowy_River]

I'm really hoping the reason for the delays is Apple wants to have sufficient quantity to ship at the time of annoucement. At least, I hope thats the reason. I get tired of Apple announcing a product and then shipping the product 3 or 4 months later.. that gets old...

You know, it's funny, people keep saying things like "Just tell us when they'll ship" and then say "Don't announce a product until it's ready to ship". Does no one besides me see the contradiction here?

http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/rolleyes.jpg

[Dave the Great]

Maybe called the DeskBook? You know, I agree with you. I think that Apple could do well to expand their horizons a little. While the old days of the multiple product lines might have been confusing, it did allow for more flexibility for the final user. How many PowerBook lines were available concurrently before the introduction of the G3 Series? And those were more than just different in clock speed and overall footprint.

Yeah, the DeskBook!! I like it. When can I buy one? :)

[Snowy_River]

Since this is sort of a wishlist/what do you think the next PB will have ?

I will add my own..

Do you think the next version of PBs will add right/left button support and maybe a scroll zone area to the touchpad?

The trackpads on all current PBs support side scroll regions. It's just not enabled in the driver that Apple uses. However, there is an alternate driver that you can install. It's called SideTrack (http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/). The latest version is really quite extraordinary. It not only allows you to have up-down scrolling along either side of your track pad, it also allows for left-right scrolling along the top or bottom, as well as different tap behavior in the corners of the track pad. I have mine set to scroll along the right and bottom edges, and I have the upper left corner tap set to button 2 (i.e. right mouse button) and the upper right corner tap set to button 3 (which is useful in Unix land). I'm currently trying to decide what to do with the lower corners (right now I have them set to Cmd-TAB and Cmd-Shift-TAB, but I don't know that I'll keep that).

So, this is one little driver, in principle, answers all of your wishes... http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg

[garybooberry]

Man, unless Apple releases some gear soon, there will be a full-on revolt!! :eek:

[oingoboingo]

Ya I want to see Macrumors have this headline: "Apple decides Powermac, Powerbook lines "done"; decides to focus all attention on new colors of ipods"

Ummm...isn't that kind of what's happening now anyway?

[Parikh1234]

Is there ever a time where Apple is not working on their next product release... c'mon, stop releasing such garbage as rumors.

I agree. What the **** is the point of telling us this? Everyone knows this. Hey I have an idea. Why dont you save yourself some time and just post, "Computer industry to update stuff soon." Eventually your gonna be right.

[oingoboingo]

THANK YOU. Not only does the complete lack of L3 and mediocre increase of L2 in the Alum. compared to the Titanium affect Java, but pretty much ANY realtime rendering.... cheap bastids. Cutting corners angers me. These Alum PBs may be pretty, but there's alot the public doesn't know about quality. And that's what apple is relying on.

Is that right? A benchmark test in the December 2003 Macworld shows the older 15" 1GHz TiBook and the newer 15" 1GHz AlBook scoring almost identical scores in a PhotoShop 7.0.1 suite, iMovie render, iTunes encode, Quake III frame rate and Cinema 4D XL render tests. The only benchmark where the new and old 15" systems showed any real difference was in an MPEG-2 encoding test...and then the new AlBook outperformed the TiBook, 13:59 min to 16:58 min.

Maybe Java is a totally different ball game...

[otter-boy]

:
Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.


here's an option:
http://www.bartastechnologies.com/products/copywrite/

You might want to pick up a copy of Writer's Digest or Poets and Writers and look through the ads for more options.

[ryanw]

:confused:
I am a PC user wanting to switch to Apple. I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.

Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.

any other advise is appreciated

Michael
san antonio, tx :)
A friend of mine has a 17" powerbook. I guess there are little cloths you can buy to put on your keyboard before you close them. This stops the marks. The marks are from finger greese on the keys..... you can just clean them off also...

[Freg3000]

The trackpads on all current PBs support side scroll regions. It's just not enabled in the driver that Apple uses. However, there is an alternate driver that you can install. It's called SideTrack (http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/). The latest version is really quite extraordinary. It not only allows you to have up-down scrolling along either side of your track pad, it also allows for left-right scrolling along the top or bottom, as well as different tap behavior in the corners of the track pad. I have mine set to scroll along the right and bottom edges, and I have the upper left corner tap set to button 2 (i.e. right mouse button) and the upper right corner tap set to button 3 (which is useful in Unix land). I'm currently trying to decide what to do with the lower corners (right now I have them set to Cmd-TAB and Cmd-Shift-TAB, but I don't know that I'll keep that).

So, this is one little driver, in principle, answers all of your wishes... http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg

I configured my corners to activate expose....wow! It is amazing. Why doesn't Apple have the as a preference that you could turn on in System Preferences?

[jcshas]

Even Mr. Jobs blog is suffering from a lack of updates - He hasnt made an entry since the 24th of March! :D

[GigaWire]

What happened to the "exciting year?"

It's still waiting for 8 more months to pass... :rolleyes:

[spullara]

The Don't Actually (http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html)
It's been said, rightfully so, that Apple didn't use the 7457 because it did suppor L3, and they didn't want questions as to why the PB's had L3 and the Desktops didn't.

My G4 desktop has a 2MB L3 per processor. I wasn't comparing to G5s.

[Ja Di ksw]

The trackpads on all current PBs support side scroll regions. It's just not enabled in the driver that Apple uses.

Thank you for bringing this up, I've wondered about it. Honestly, thank you a lot

[Rod Rod]

it's only april?

1/4 of the year is already gone. we're almost at the 1/3 mark. the "exciting" 20th anniversary of mac hasn't been very eventful at all. iLife '04 is great, little colorful iPods are great, but that's not much compared to new / updated CPUs.

[wdlove]

Hmm, not exactly news, more what you'd expect Apple to be doing given previous comments from them (ie. No G5's in laptops anytime soon).

On a slightly different note what's going on with the G5 desktops? When they were launched Jobs said they'd be up to 3ghz by the following year. Well another few months and the year is up and so far no updates at all. Are they just going get a 50% speed hike?

Sorry for going off topic there, just wanted to get it off my chest...

I hope that you feel better now. Usually writing something down will relieve tension. My hope is the Apple will take heed of all this discussion.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

Yep, you're right about that. That L3 helps the Dual 1.42 beat out the G5 at times.. I miss that L3..

Apple said, when specifically asked why no L3 in the G5, that the 970 was so fast that it wasn't needed, and that the L3 was in the previous chips to help with crap bus speed and CPU drag.. but you'd think they'd throw it in anyway.. I mean, Apple's top of the line, right? So throw everything in and the kitchen sink, but I'm not running the company, so I don't get a say.

My G4 desktop has a 2MB L3 per processor. I wasn't comparing to G5s.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

You'd hope, right? I'd like to think they use these, and other forums, as candid focus groups.. though, if they actually did, things might be different.

I hope that you feel better now. Usually writing something down will relieve tension. My hope is the Apple will take heed of all this discussion.

[advocate]

I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.
I have an aluminum PowerBook G4 15" and yes, you're right, as purchased the lid isn't as secure as it should be. I did have some problems with the latch popping too easily as well.

I purchased a set of WildEepz from RadTech (http://www.radtech.us/Products/Wildeepz.aspx) and it solved all of these problems. Now my lid latches securely and never pops open on its own, there's no wobble when the lid is shut and I'm carrying the PowerBook, and the lid sure looks straight to me.

From discussions on various forums (including discussions.info.apple.com) I gather that the lid was moved millimetres farther away from the keyboard in order to prevent those marks on the screen you mention; certainly that hasn't been a problem for me, nor for anyone else I know with one of this revision of PowerBook. (On the older revisions of the PowerBook G4, the screen was so close to the keyboard that they often made contact, transferring finger grease from the keyboard onto the screen.) This small change in design seems to have had a much bigger impact than the engineers thought. It is totally fixed by applying the WildEepz, though.

Buy a Mac and enjoy it! The reality is that there's always a new one coming, so just get one whenever you need to get one. The current revision is speedy enough for everything I throw at it aside from heavy 3D games.

[goof_ball]

I don't think it's unreasonable that it takes a bit longer to get the lastest processors in the powerbook line........but where the %$@$ are the updates to the powermacs?

[BWhaler]

I don't want to be too eager to jump on the band wagon too, but I've definitely noticed the dearth of interesting rumors and news on the Mac Web.

In some ways, it's getting kinda sad. Even the daily polls are sucking wind.

Well, either something is terribly wrong at Apple or IBM, or they are building demand and curiousity for the "next generation" of amazing products.

And I don't mean putting the G5 in the PowerBooks or iMac, I mean some huge stuff none of the Mac boards see coming.

So which will it be? Who knows. I'm an optimist, and hell, Apple has been on a roll for the past few years, so I'm thinking it's something big coming our way.

In the mean time, the Mac web is suffering rehashing predictable rumors with an ever revised release schedule.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

We know they've had in them, and, at times, they've amazed us all.. I hope you're right and this is one of those times..

It's just sad to be collectively sitting here just hoping for something, anything to push them to the limelight and mainstream..

Well, either something is terribly wrong at Apple or IBM, or they are building demand and curiousity for the "next generation" of amazing products.

And I don't mean putting the G5 in the PowerBooks or iMac, I mean some huge stuff none of the Mac boards see coming.

So which will it be? Who knows. I'm an optimist, and hell, Apple has been on a roll for the past few years, so I'm thinking it's something big coming our way.

[Borg3of5]

Well, I for one, was looking at the "Savings" part of the Apple store over the last few days, and noticed that there was a listing for a refurbished Dual 2.0 GHz G5. There are similar offerings in the Powerbook line, and it seems that no one is buying them. Looks like most of the folks that look over that part of the Apple store read the rumors on this website.

Or, perhaps, it's that people ARE tired of having G4's in Powerbooks. I thought for sure that portables were "the" thing to have. It's ok to have the iBook on which I am writing the reply to this thread; but, I can really say, it will perhaps be my last. The ONLY way I would probably consider another portable is if the price on the backlit keyboard 15" PB goes under $2,000. There's simply no need for me to have a portable, and I'd probably get more pleasure from a G5/HD Cinema combination. I rarely disconnect my iBook from my desk setup, OK...once a year for my vacation to San Francisco. It does its job well, this 800 MHz G3 iBook, especially with the new Canon Powershot G5 I got myself for Christmas.

It was great to be able to upload my pics to the iBook every night in the hotel, after shooting a hundred or so digipics for my 6-day visit to the Bay Area. But, again, it's only once a year, and I'm really REALLY feeling the need to burn "archival copies" of DVDs, which I haven't been able to because of the G3's inability to even have an external DVD-R burner connected to it. Argh!!!

I want a G5 now!

[mvc]

Well, either something is terribly wrong at Apple or IBM, or they are building demand and curiousity for the "next generation" of amazing products.

And I don't mean putting the G5 in the PowerBooks or iMac, I mean some huge stuff none of the Mac boards see coming.



This is my expectation too.

I believe this year will see a complete revamp of the home machines, not so much a leap forward as a leap sideways.

The Home PC is now a commodity item, and as such, the thrill has gone.

It's over…

Computers are over…

Now we just have endless refinement and repackaging of twenty year old concepts and increasingly locked in customers.

When did a PC of any description last amaze you? Was it your first time on the web? Your first email? First time you used Photoshop? Pac Man ???

This market is going nowhere. It has matured, like microwave ovens and automobiles. And they know it well at Cupertino

Only a company like Apple can make the next insanely great device that will replace it and bring a new era of integration and functionality and dammit, fun and wonder to the home media/hub/appliance market that is emerging.

I have no idea what this will look like or be. I just believe that its coming.

Also - there is no spoon

[Dave the Great]

The trackpads on all current PBs support side scroll regions. It's just not enabled in the driver that Apple uses. However, there is an alternate driver that you can install. It's called SideTrack (http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/). The latest version is really quite extraordinary. It not only allows you to have up-down scrolling along either side of your track pad, it also allows for left-right scrolling along the top or bottom, as well as different tap behavior in the corners of the track pad. I have mine set to scroll along the right and bottom edges, and I have the upper left corner tap set to button 2 (i.e. right mouse button) and the upper right corner tap set to button 3 (which is useful in Unix land). I'm currently trying to decide what to do with the lower corners (right now I have them set to Cmd-TAB and Cmd-Shift-TAB, but I don't know that I'll keep that).

So, this is one little driver, in principle, answers all of your wishes... http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg

Cool!!

Thank you very much for the info.
I wish I knew about it sooner.

Yes, it does answer them.

[sonyrules]

I'll second that. What a poor job by Apple. Whats it going to take to light a fire under their a**es.

What happened to the "exciting year?"

Its only April, there is pleanty of time left in the year. With such a long dry spell in powermacs, I wouldnt put it past Apple to release the 3Ghz at WWDC. I think they got more than pleanty time in for it. As far as powerbooks, I do see them getting another revision G4. iPod color screens around the corner, and just a speed bump for the iBook. iMac, We might see a 2.0 G5 maybe.. they dont want it getting in the way of current powermac sales. Just a thought

[Dave the Great]

1/4 of the year is already gone. we're almost at the 1/3 mark. the "exciting" 20th anniversary of mac hasn't been very eventful at all. iLife '04 is great, little colorful iPods are great, but that's not much compared to new / updated CPUs.

Oh, yeah. What happened to the 20th anniversary bit?

[Gyroscope]

Question here is why do they,or we bother anymore?

It has been almost two years since supposed IBM return to PPC for a Mac. What did we get since then? One revision of PowerMac??! Apple is still using crappy Motorola chips. Their product line based on these suck-ass chips is so morbidly unattractive and overpriced. I currently see no value for money in Apple computers. Thats why I find hard to get inspired by any G4 based updates. To me, that's just another slap in the face. Steve Jobs has no continuity as a businesman. His hits and misses, with no real strategy and care for loyal user base, will destroy Apple, or at least destroy it as we know it today.

[avus]

Question here is why do they,or we bother anymore?

It has been almost two years since supposed IBM return to PPC for a Mac. What did we get since then? One revision of PowerMac??! Apple is still using crappy Motorola chips. Their product line based on these suck-ass chips is so morbidly unattractive and overpriced. I currently see no value for money in Apple computers. Thats why I find hard to get inspired by any G4 based updates. To me, that's just another slap in the face. Steve Jobs has no continuity as a businesman. His hits and misses, with no real strategy and care for loyal user base, will destroy Apple, or at least destroy it as we know it today.

Your post seriously made me wish Apple would cease to exist tomorrow and never be bothered with the fanatics that are "loyal user base" any longer.

[macdong]

I know these rumors can get boring and everyones waiting on the G5 powerbook, but as long as the G4 is still making money and is fast enough, there not going to switch to G5 that soon.

problem is G4 ain't fast enough.

[oingoboingo]

It was great to be able to upload my pics to the iBook every night in the hotel, after shooting a hundred or so digipics for my 6-day visit to the Bay Area. But, again, it's only once a year, and I'm really REALLY feeling the need to burn "archival copies" of DVDs, which I haven't been able to because of the G3's inability to even have an external DVD-R burner connected to it. Argh!!!I want a G5 now!

Is this a restriction of your G3 iBook, or just that iDVD doesn't support external DVD burners? Doesn't the G3 iBook have a FireWire port? Why couldn't you just plug in an external FireWire DVD-R and use something like Toast or another piece of 3rd party software to burn? Or am I missing something really obvious here...

[applekid]

Yep, you're right about that. That L3 helps the Dual 1.42 beat out the G5 at times.. I miss that L3..

Apple said, when specifically asked why no L3 in the G5, that the 970 was so fast that it wasn't needed, and that the L3 was in the previous chips to help with crap bus speed and CPU drag.. but you'd think they'd throw it in anyway.. I mean, Apple's top of the line, right? So throw everything in and the kitchen sink, but I'm not running the company, so I don't get a say.

I think the reason is L3 cache is fairly expensive and probably preventing Apple from adding to an already expensive G5. We only needed L3 cache back then to try to compete with Intel's offerings. Hopefully we won't need to see L3 cache ever again.

[hulugu]

:confused:
I am a PC user wanting to switch to Apple. I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.

Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.

any other advise is appreciated

Michael
san antonio, tx :)

The hinge thing isn't a big deal, I have 15" PB and it looks great, other PBs seem similar, never judge a computer by the one of the showroom floor.
To prevent keyboard marks you can either keep the keyboard clean, or place a piece of paper on the keyboard—there are about a hundred other products, leather, cloth, etc too.
Finally, I would suggest TextEdit, good writing doesn't come from software, but that may just be my bias.

[mojowantshappy]

Question here is why do they,or we bother anymore?

It has been almost two years since supposed IBM return to PPC for a Mac. What did we get since then? One revision of PowerMac??! Apple is still using crappy Motorola chips. Their product line based on these suck-ass chips is so morbidly unattractive and overpriced. I currently see no value for money in Apple computers. Thats why I find hard to get inspired by any G4 based updates. To me, that's just another slap in the face. Steve Jobs has no continuity as a businesman. His hits and misses, with no real strategy and care for loyal user base, will destroy Apple, or at least destroy it as we know it today.

You've gotta be kidding me, this is a computer you are talking about.

[thatwendigo]

Question here is why do they,or we bother anymore?

Oh, I don't know... Probably because they're one of two major OEMs to be making money? :rolleyes:

It has been almost two years since supposed IBM return to PPC for a Mac. What did we get since then? One revision of PowerMac??!

IBM has pretty well always been onboard for PPC. You know those G3s? IBM. The G5? IBM. AltiVec? IBM helped on it. What we've gotten from them, at this point, is a reliable and modern fabbing facility that isn't focused on the embedded market, the world's single largest patent holder in microchip design, the holder of a number of importat technologies that AMD and Intel are licensing (SOI, SSOI, and so on)... Sure, they're not giving us anything at all.

I currently see no value for money in Apple computers.

Good for you.

Thats why I find hard to get inspired by any G4 based updates. To me, that's just another slap in the face. Steve Jobs has no continuity as a businesman. His hits and misses, with no real strategy and care for loyal user base, will destroy Apple, or at least destroy it as we know it today.

He's only brought us somewhere that previous Apple CEOs couldn't manage in some eight years (a new Mac OS), given Apple consumer credibility (the iPod), negotiated the fastest chips ever used in macs (the G5), provided a degree of security and ease of use that Microsoft can only dream of (OS X), and generally cleaned house (no debt, $6B in the bank).

How, exactly, is Apple in a bad position right now?

[Snowy_River]

To everyone: You're welcome.

I configured my corners to activate expose....wow! It is amazing. Why doesn't Apple have the as a preference that you could turn on in System Preferences?

That's an excellent question that I've been wondering about ever since I learned that the trackpads that Apple uses were capable of it. Well, at least there are people like Alex Harper to make things like SideTrack for us...

[aswitcher]

I think its fair to say that after WWDC we should at least know when the G5PB will be out. I don't think Steve has the gall to just release a minor speed bumpG4PB without at least telling us when to expect the G5...

[Malcolm-Mac-X]

market share blah blah...im 17 i think that as long as apple has enough power that macs still have support its fine. Apple computers esp. laptops are status symbols like a Range Rover or some expensive clothes. On the plane when all the thick and ugly pc laptops come out with external cd drives the second someone whips the 12 inch to 17 inch powerbook out it catches glares. Same with all social symbols....except not everyone will buy it because they a) dont have the money or b) just dont need it. Apple is a high end seller...look at the ipod! But go apple im just so sick of them not coming out with new products...

[Zaty]

When a piece of news information containing no news at all gets so much attention, it's a clear sign that we are all super desperate for updates. While I have no Idea why Apple hasn't updated PMs yet, I definitely wouldn't say PBs are delayed. If you look at time elapsed between updates, Apple usually released new revision approximately every 7 months on average (or 210 days). The reason why the "Buyer's guide" lists 163 days is because the update cycle was skewed when Apple announced the 12" and the 17" AlBook only 2 months after the last TiBook release. Today is day 205. So we're still on track. PowerBooks are coming later this month.

Edit: AI says Apple wants to make thinner both the 12" PB and the 12" iBook. I highly doubt they're changing the design of the cases for the comming release. Thinner 12incher may be an objective for the release after next (possibly G5 PBs) though.

[redAPPLE]

Yeah, the DeskBook!! I like it. When can I buy one? :)

guess what... NEXT TUESDAY!! ;)

[rdowns]

The trackpads on all current PBs support side scroll regions. It's just not enabled in the driver that Apple uses. However, there is an alternate driver that you can install. It's called SideTrack (http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/). The latest version is really quite extraordinary. It not only allows you to have up-down scrolling along either side of your track pad, it also allows for left-right scrolling along the top or bottom, as well as different tap behavior in the corners of the track pad. I have mine set to scroll along the right and bottom edges, and I have the upper left corner tap set to button 2 (i.e. right mouse button) and the upper right corner tap set to button 3 (which is useful in Unix land). I'm currently trying to decide what to do with the lower corners (right now I have them set to Cmd-TAB and Cmd-Shift-TAB, but I don't know that I'll keep that).

So, this is one little driver, in principle, answers all of your wishes... http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg

Count me in as a happy Sidtrack user. I no longer need to carry a mouse with my iBook; never been a fan of the trackpad.

[rdowns]

You'd hope, right? I'd like to think they use these, and other forums, as candid focus groups.. though, if they actually did, things might be different.

While I'm sure Apple monitors Apple based forums, I hardly think they use them as "candid focus groups". The users on these forums are hardly typical of the market. The vast majority uf Aple users hardly have the knowledge that forum users do. If they did, Apple would be dead.

[Nny]

What is going on at Apple?

A lot of thumb-twiddling and staring at the wall. Steve made them all sit in the corner so they could quote: "think about what they've done."

But seriously....

It would be nice for Apple to have a public hardware/software roadmap like most other tech companies. We can't just assume product updates every 6 months and an OS update every year, because that hasn't been a firm rule anymore as updates are becoming slower. We also don't know what to really expect in our updates (are we just getting speed bumps, or will we see better video, storage, memory, architecture, form factor?). Thinksecret.com has avoided hardware rumors altogether (collective reasoning: buy a Magic 8 Ball), Macosrumors.com has reduced to simply posting reader e-mail speculation and isn't even a rumor site anymore (more of a what-if forum), and AppleInsider is just guessing.

[aswitcher]

Thinksecret.com has avoided hardware rumors altogether (collective reasoning: buy a Magic 8 Ball), Macosrumors.com has reduced to simply posting reader e-mail speculation and isn't even a rumor site anymore (more of a what-if forum), and AppleInsider is just guessing.

Yeah, I am waiting for ThinkSecret to get out a decent leak...

[teksmex69]

it won't rain till you wash your car, and the new notebooks won't be announced till several very "lucky" individuals in this forum breakdown and buy current g4 powerbooks. so get to it! ;-)

it's just the way it works.


"i tell my clueless friends 'my car runs a modified quadra 950'."

-an macrumors newb, but not a mac newb.

[denm316]

This has got to be one of the worst rumors yet. No kidding Apple is looking into updates, in theory they have been looking into updates since September.

To comment on what some others said, I agree that the next revision from Apple on anything will more then likely be different color iPod Mini's. Don't get me wrong I love my iPod, but give me some new hardware. If Apple wants to get people to switch after they buy an iPod, give the people some new choices.

I have wanted to buy a powerbook for the last 2 months or so, have yet to decide between a 12 or 15, but I would really like to see a bit of a price drop from Apple on these, or updates, or something, c'mon Apple just let me know your still alive.

[denm316]

market share blah blah...im 17 i think that as long as apple has enough power that macs still have support its fine. Apple computers esp. laptops are status symbols like a Range Rover or some expensive clothes. On the plane when all the thick and ugly pc laptops come out with external cd drives the second someone whips the 12 inch to 17 inch powerbook out it catches glares. Same with all social symbols....except not everyone will buy it because they a) dont have the money or b) just dont need it. Apple is a high end seller...look at the ipod! But go apple im just so sick of them not coming out with new products...

I totally agree, it is a status symbol. The powerbook is much more of a status symbol then the iBook. You see poepl on the plane pulling out thick plastic Dell and HP's, and there is the guy next to you who pulls out a 12" aluminum powerbook, it just looks so "high-end", gotta love the status symbol which is Apple.

Also has anyone else ever been able notice what type of mp3 player someone has just by seeing the headphones...I think not, the iPod is as much as a stauts symbol the the powerbook. It amazing how anything Apple creates looks like a status symbol.

[Wonder Boy]

No kidding!...:eek:

i think the emphasis is the "powerbookg4 updates. if we are accepting this rumor, we have a good idea about when PB g5's will be out (not in the next update)

also, anyone else notice the correlation betweeen intense bitching and newbies? it seems to me that those with the most inspired opinions have only made 12 or 15 posts ever. listen newbies, you havent been around long enough to understand this forum. if the news is obvious, fine. take it as a conversation peice and contribute something other than "this forum is stupid, obviously they're working on something".

[Stewie]

problem is G4 ain't fast enough.


Fast enough for what?

[AidenShaw]

You see poepl on the plane pulling out thick plastic Dell

Dell Latitude X300 - 0.8" thick, 2.9 lbs
Apple PowerBook 12" - 1.18" thick, 4.6 lbs

http://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_top_45degree_314.jpghttp://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_left_closed_314x314.jpg
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x300?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz#tabtop


That thick, heavy PowerBook is a status symbol? ;)

[kotovasii]

I'll second that. What a poor job by Apple. Whats it going to take to light a fire under their a**es.

What happened to the "exciting year?"
Just before everybody explodes - the year has just started, no?!?
Did you really expect Apple to dump all their hardware and announce new stuff within weeks? Just calm down all of you and use your Great Macs for another 6-9 months especially that the majority of people do not actually need anything apart from a web browser and occasionally a word processor. I just cannot believe that all of those complaining are heavy users of Mathematica, BLAST etc.
Chill, enjoy what you have and if you have spare money - donate it to kids in Afghanistan - they will appreciate it much more!
:-(

[SiliconAddict]

Until the FSB on Apple's laptop line moves WELL beyond the neutered 167Mhz; speed bumping the G4 will offer little to no performance advantages. We are now in the same boat with the PowerBook and iBooks that the PowerMac was in pre-G5. Intel's Pentium M has legs on it. That coupled with FSB's at 400Mhz equals a performance gap between PC's and Macs that CAN NOT be ignored anymore. Unless a G5 is released or Craporola releases a CPU that can be used in conjunction with a faster FSB Apple's pro product line will be in trouble. I say pro because for the ibook series it offers relatively good bang for the buck. But the PowerBooks? Pathetically sad. Always in times of hardware crisis Mac users fall back on "but it has OS X" True. It does have OS X a distinct advantage over PC's, but time and again I'm constantly being hit with "Apple is a hardware company first and a software company second" and that "They make their bread and butter off of hardware". If this is so they are making a craptastic product right now.
The lack of G5 rev B PowerMacs, the lack of a serious upgrade in the PowerBook line, unable to meet demand for the iPod mini, nothing new lately for the mainstream ipod's, problems last fall with lawsuits for those iBooks with shaky systems boards, and lepers disease on the newly released 15" PowerBook's all smells like a company that is trying to juggle too many products without enough resources. Either that or a serious mismanagement of company resources. Since Apple is so secretive it's obviously all speculation but the fairytale story of Apple that everything is wonderful in Appleland, IMHO, has crumbled after hanging around here for the last year. Is it better then being on a PC? Probably, but IMHO the frustrations of the Windows world are just traded for a different set of frustrations in the Mac world.

[dcollierp]

I am waitning for a powerbook revision so there will be a price drop on older models. That way I can get a sub-thousand dollar 667/800 dvi.

[denm316]

:) Dell Latitude X300 - 0.8" thick, 2.9 lbs
Apple PowerBook 12" - 1.18" thick, 4.6 lbs

http://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_top_45degree_314.jpghttp://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_left_closed_314x314.jpg
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x300?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz#tabtop


That thick, heavy PowerBook is a status symbol? ;)


Was not aware Dell made something that thin, however the problem with all PC laptops this thin is they dont have internal CD/DVD drives, I would still rather be on a plane with a laptop and have all my drive internal, it may get a little tight on that tray table with your laptop and its external DVD drive :)

[SiliconAddict]

Dell Latitude X300 - 0.8" thick, 2.9 lbs
Apple PowerBook 12" - 1.18" thick, 4.6 lbs


That thick, heavy PowerBook is a status symbol? ;)


I'll up the ante with.....

Toshiba Portage R100 - 0.6-.07" thick, 2.4 lbs

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/30425845-2-300-sides-4.gif

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/30425845-2-300-overview-1.gif

Price: $2,069

The Pentium M has opened up a new world for small form factor laptops. The only downside of this model, and pretty much every sub 1" laptop is the DVD drive is external, which for some isn't a big deal since not everyone uses their drive every day. Oh did I forget to mention Tosh includes a 3 year warantee no extra cost? :mad:

[cubist]

Both the Dell and the Toshiba have molded plastic cases with a little foil glued on.

[the future]

Those are SUB-notebooks, of course they are thinner and lighter. Apple doesn't make sub-notebooks. Plus those Dell and Toshiba books still don't look anywhere near as classy as Powerbooks, especially "in person" (vs. in pictures).

[denm316]

i think the emphasis is the "powerbookg4 updates. if we are accepting this rumor, we have a good idea about when PB g5's will be out (not in the next update)

also, anyone else notice the correlation betweeen intense bitching and newbies? it seems to me that those with the most inspired opinions have only made 12 or 15 posts ever. listen newbies, you havent been around long enough to understand this forum. if the news is obvious, fine. take it as a conversation peice and contribute something other than "this forum is stupid, obviously they're working on something".

My status says newbie, but I have been reading these posts and forums for over the last, and I also spent just as much as everyone else on their iBook's and PowerMac's so I have an opinion just as much as everyone else.

Everyone from Arn to any newbie has the same right to voice an opinion.

[visualanté]

Apple needs to incorperate a upgradeable vid card in the powerbook with better LCD

[avus]

Those are SUB-notebooks, of course they are thinner and lighter. Apple doesn't make sub-notebooks. Plus those Dell and Toshiba books still don't look anywhere near as classy as Powerbooks, especially "in person" (vs. in pictures).

Exactly. And despite constant ramblings I hear about the lack of Apple sub-notebooks, they only represent a very small place in overall notebook market.

I am shocked to even see Dell X300 here - when this thing opens up, you'll see a wacky blue trimming around the keyboard, and it is quite disgusting.

For a bloated price of $2,069, I am surprised that Toshiba only included a 3-year warranty.

[visualanté]

pc laptops dont compare inthe size to power ratio however the big dell gaming system rocks in performance but is nasty & clunky....64mb vid is apples largest vid in the powerbook, why? and apples hd are always slow

[AidenShaw]

Those are SUB-notebooks, of course they are thinner and lighter. Apple doesn't make sub-notebooks.

Hmm, the X300 has a 12" 1024x768 screen, just like the 12" AlBook.

It's only 0.1" narrower than the 12" PB (10.8" vs. 10.9"). It's even 0.6" deeper than the 12" PB (9.2" vs. 8.6").

Sorry, but that's not a sub-notebook - it's a full fledged notebook for people who prefer light and thin instead of a builtin DVD....

The "but it's a sub-notebook" is just as hollow as the "but that's a workstation, not a desktop" arguments at the G5 intro! You can't artificially define categories - these are full laptops that compete directly with the 12".

Aluminum dents...

[nubero]

What happened to the "exciting year?"

Jeez...!

Chill out guys it's only April! Still a lot of time! I have to say, I'd be VERY Impressed if Apple was able to get the G5 chip into a PowerBook case by this time. Has anyone ever looked at the way they cool this thing in the G5 and Xserve? How on earth are they supposed to build it into the PB's case the way it is now? my guess is, the'll have to wait for a special revision of the chip to make it portable... Even the 90nm one seems to get too hot still...

--- --- --- --- ---
My free Desktop Pictures!
http://homepage.mac.com/nuber

[visualanté]

does it have all the io fetures like a PB

[micvog]

:)
Was not aware Dell made something that thin, however the problem with all PC laptops this thin is they dont have internal CD/DVD drives, I would still rather be on a plane with a laptop and have all my drive internal, it may get a little tight on that tray table with your laptop and its external DVD drive :)

It gets worse, don't plan on doing anything graphics intensive as this Dell has "Intel Integrated Graphics".

[visualanté]

dells are good but style is the only issue....i compared a PB 17 next to a dell and screanwise dell's highend laptop killedd the mac

[g30ffr3y]

does it have all the io fetures like a PB


not at all... and its overpriced... and it runs windows...

ill still take a powerbook any day of the week...

dell = ford/chevy <-- they can make it as thin and crippled as they want
but it will never be a status symbol...

[visualanté]

not at all... and its overpriced... and it runs windows...

ill still take a powerbook any day of the week...

dell = ford/chevy <-- they can make it as thin and crippled as they want
but it will never be a status symbol...
io is the key considering upgradeing the structure is unavailable or limited, PB has all io

[Borg3of5]

Is this a restriction of your G3 iBook, or just that iDVD doesn't support external DVD burners? Doesn't the G3 iBook have a FireWire port? Why couldn't you just plug in an external FireWire DVD-R and use something like Toast or another piece of 3rd party software to burn? Or am I missing something really obvious here...

I don't remember exactly where I read it/saw it, but I have never run across any specs on any external, Firewire DVD-R drives, that advise the product can run on a G3 processor-based Mac. All the specs I've seen have as a minimum a G4 processor, running at 400 MHz. Which is strange to me, because if my G3 iBook runs at 800 MHz, then this should effectively double the needed processor speed.

If you've seen specs to discredit this, please let me know WHERE I can get my hands on one...I'd really like to add DVD-R burning to my setup.

[Borg3of5]

Dell Latitude X300 - 0.8" thick, 2.9 lbs
Apple PowerBook 12" - 1.18" thick, 4.6 lbs

http://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_top_45degree_314.jpghttp://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_left_closed_314x314.jpg
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x300?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz#tabtop


That thick, heavy PowerBook is a status symbol? ;)

I don't know you Aiden, so I hope you don't think I'm "raining on your parade," BUT:

What was left out is that even though this Dell is only 0.8" thick, and a pound and some ounces less weight than a Powerbook 12", it is the equivalent of an oversized Palm. There is only a 30 GB Hard-Drive, comes standard with 128 MB RAM, and has a 1.2 GHz processor.

The 12" Powerbook blows this Dell out of the water. IMHO, it's not a good match. Besides the Dell starts out at $1,900. Pricey, just to say you don't have to carry an extra pound-and-some paperweight.

AND...it runs the so-called wonder to the world of computers that is Windows XP. Wonderful. Can I puke now?

[iggyb]

Just before everybody explodes - the year has just started, no?!?
Did you really expect Apple to dump all their hardware and announce new stuff within weeks? Just calm down all of you and use your Great Macs for another 6-9 months especially that the majority of people do not actually need anything apart from a web browser and occasionally a word processor. I just cannot believe that all of those complaining are heavy users of Mathematica, BLAST etc.
Chill, enjoy what you have and if you have spare money - donate it to kids in Afghanistan - they will appreciate it much more!
:-(

The year has just started? We're in the second quarter already. And Mac users definitely want machines that stay on pace with the rest of the industry. Macs are priced higher, they should be the top performers to match their superior OS.

[micvog]

I don't remember exactly where I read it/saw it, but I have never run across any specs on any external, Firewire DVD-R drives, that advise the product can run on a G3 processor-based Mac. All the specs I've seen have as a minimum a G4 processor, running at 400 MHz. Which is strange to me, because if my G3 iBook runs at 800 MHz, then this should effectively double the needed processor speed.

If you've seen specs to discredit this, please let me know WHERE I can get my hands on one...I'd really like to add DVD-R burning to my setup.

I saw this DVD burner at Costco recently, and per their website, it will work with "any" G3 Mac (don't hold me to it, but IIRC it was $229).

http://www.tdk.com/dvdburners/indidvd4xmulti_extspecs.html

[dieselg4]

I don't know you Aiden, so I hope you don't think I'm "raining on your parade," BUT:

What was left out is that even though this Dell is only 0.8" thick, and a pound and some ounces less weight than a Powerbook 12", it is the equivalent of an oversized Palm. There is only a 30 GB Hard-Drive, comes standard with 128 MB RAM, and has a 1.2 GHz processor.

The 12" Powerbook blows this Dell out of the water. IMHO, it's not a good match. Besides the Dell starts out at $1,900. Pricey, just to say you don't have to carry an extra pound-and-some paperweight.

AND...it runs the so-called wonder to the world of computers that is Windows XP. Wonderful. Can I puke now?


The dell also has no optical drive built in. At least most of the fujitsu p-series notebooks have them.

[dieselg4]

Dell Latitude X300 - 0.8" thick, 2.9 lbs
Apple PowerBook 12" - 1.18" thick, 4.6 lbs

http://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_top_45degree_314.jpghttp://img.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/x300_left_closed_314x314.jpg
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_x300?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz#tabtop


That thick, heavy PowerBook is a status symbol? ;)

I went to Dell's website and "customized" this computer with bluetooth, added 128 MB more ram, upgraded the hard drive to 40GB, and added the EXTERNAL CDRW/DVD. I'll have to look into it more, but for soem reason it looks like they want to charge ofr a battery and AC charger (that can't be correct, can it?) Anyway, I left the battery and charger off, and got a grand total of :
$2109.

A new powerbook 12" w/ bluetooth, CDRW/DVD, and Airport Xtreme is:
$1698

A diffference of $400. Now take a more comparable notebook (the iBook, which is palstic and has a slower processor (1.2 Ghz P M? I know a G4 is retro, but so is this) configured similarly (G4 800 256MB 40GB BT CDRW/DVD APX) :
$1273
A difference of over $800. Quite frankley, unless you need it for AutoCAD of some other Windows only app, I'd go with the ibook.

[visualanté]

still by todays stndereds my PB pizmo is thin and its 4 years old....apple should consider that design bcuz its a little thicker buut more flexibable...with some minor cosmetic changes it be sweet....you would hsve more room for cooling g5 and expansion bays....does a .5 " really hurt you if u can have a g5 and room....its still sleek maybe not paper thin but its a compromise

[mckeek]

The Dell has no optical drive, lousy graphics, and costs more. OTOH, it's probably faster and comes with a 3 year warranty, and runs millions of software titles.

The PB12 has a slot loading combo drive, better graphics, and costs less. It's also better looking, but is limited to available Mac software. OSX is nicer than XP, though, so that's a plus.

Both machines need more memory.

I am an IT manager for a 65-person (sorry - PC only) company and buy lots of Dells (don't worry - I have a mac at home, and am currently craving a PB15!). In general, I don't find Dell laptops to be very competitive with others (Toshiba, Sony, et. al.) in the PC world, but we do like their desktops.

[the future]

Sorry, but that's not a sub-notebook - it's a full fledged notebook for people who prefer light and thin instead of a builtin DVD.... The "but it's a sub-notebook" is just as hollow as the "but that's a workstation, not a desktop" arguments at the G5 intro! You can't artificially define categories - these are full laptops that compete directly with the 12"..

Of course we can argue about what exactly makes a sub-notebook "sub", but for me (and most of the portable market, or so it seems) a notebook without optical drive is not a "full fledged" one.

[Bhennies]

Speaking to the original thread...you know this means no new Powerbook g5's for a long...long time. And we can all also expect that Rev.A is going to have major problems, so realistically, at the rate Apple's been going, you can expect a reliable and quick g5 PB in 1.75-2 years. sucks, doesn't it? I think I'll just have to suck it up and buy a PB g4.

[Spades]

Concerning these "sub" notebooks, all I have to say is I want one. I don't use the optical drive on my powerbook that often. I could easily use an external drive. I like the thinner size, and the lack of performance is not a big bother to me. I used one of the iBook G3s for awhile and didn't mind it at all. OK, upgrade the memory to 256 MB at least, but other than that it's fine. Portability is the name of the game though, not performance. Don't forget, the iBook isn't sold on performance either. Fortunately, the price on these sub-notebooks is a deal killer, so they're not exactly competing with the iBook.

I have seen one of these in person and I AM impressed. They look pretty much like what the hypothetical eBook might look like. So I say, come on Apple. Hit me with an eBook!

[DrGruv1]

It's time, with the cost of the drives at $100 to $150 (or less) they should make the new ibooks!

-mike

[Spades]

Contrary to what most people say, my advice for buying Apple is the same as buying for PCs. Set your budget, then buy once you can afford it. If you wait for the next big thing you'll wait forever.

Do you want to create publishable documents? If so, I highly recommend using TeX (http://www.rna.nl/tex.html), pronounced as "tech." There is a learning curve to it, but once you learn it you can concentrate on what matters; the content. TeX automatically handles the formatting so you don't have to worry about it. It also produces documents that are suitable for publication.

Besides that, if you buy a Powerbook it will come with a program called OmniOutliner. As you can probably guess from the name, you can use that for outlining. I'm not sure what other notes you might want to keep, but TextEdit or even Stickies can probably cover that.

:confused:
I am a PC user wanting to switch to Apple. I want to use both, I am very interested in the 12" and 15" powerbooks, I saw the 15" at compusa and it was awsome the only thing I could'nt stand was the space after theit was closed, it was ugly with a large space on one side. I wonder if they will correct it with 2 latches one on each end. Also should I wait to see if newer models are coming and also is there a way to prevent keyboard marks on screen when closed.

Your advice is needed, ALSO is there any good book writing software for Mac, I want to venture into story writing.

any other advise is appreciated

Michael
san antonio, tx :)

[SiliconAddict]

Those are SUB-notebooks, of course they are thinner and lighter. Apple doesn't make sub-notebooks. Plus those Dell and Toshiba books still don't look anywhere near as classy as Powerbooks, especially "in person" (vs. in pictures).


Those are NOT subnotebooks. Look up the term before you start spouting out such junk.


The 12" PowerBook which IS a notebook has a 12.1" screen. The Toshiba and Dell both have 12.1" screens as well.


Apple:_____10.9 x 8.6 x 1.18 Weight: 4.6lbs
Toshiba:___11.3” x 9.0” x 0.6/0.7" Weight: 2.4lbs
Dell:______10.8" x 9.2" x 0.8/0.9" Weight: 2.9lbs

The biggest difference, as I stated before, is the fact that the DVD drive is external otherwise these systems are thin laptops. If I had such a system you have the option of leaving the drive behind and going with a system that is supremely portable with as much screen real-estate as a 12" PowerBook.
The initial point of this discussion wasn't to see who is smallest but to refute the notion that PC laptops are oversized which is FAR from the truth.

[Jookbox]

this **** is getting old

[macdong]

If you wait for the next big thing you'll wait forever.

that may be true for most of the time, but right now, with the current PowerBook line, I'd say wait or get an iBook.

[Phobophobia]

People, just be patient. Apple is in no way a bad position and they will come out with good, new products.

[SiliconAddict]

I am an IT manager for a 65-person (sorry - PC only) company and buy lots of Dells (don't worry - I have a mac at home, and am currently craving a PB15!). In general, I don't find Dell laptops to be very competitive with others (Toshiba, Sony, et. al.) in the PC world, but we do like their desktops.

I have an office of 250 users. We also use Dell. Their hardware is a mixed bag IMHO. The desktops have been rock solid since we upgraded 2 years ago. Laptops. The 4 year old ones have started to have hard drive failures left and right whether this be because of abuse, age, or simply because 60% of those users are out of the office traveling 80% of the time I'm not sure.
Because of this we've moved to IBM ThinkPads. Drastically better quality. However I own a Toshiba laptop right now and I've been impressed with the quality and reliability of the system.

For those that are dumping on these devices simply because they aren't pretty enough :rolleyes: or because they aren't metal. Get real. Metal laptops have their problems just as plastic laptops have problems. I've yet to see a plastic laptop get dented and I've seen my Tosh get banged around to the point where a metal case would have gotten scruffs all over the face of the system. But obviously metal cases dissipate heat more efficiently and look prettier.

It comes down to personal preference for most and that goes beyond technical specs to something that can't be determined by anyone here. If I HAD to choose though metal would be pref but I wouldn't balk at plastic. Sure as heck iBook users aren't. :p

[Wonder Boy]

My status says newbie, but I have been reading these posts and forums for over the last, and I also spent just as much as everyone else on their iBook's and PowerMac's so I have an opinion just as much as everyone else.

Everyone from Arn to any newbie has the same right to voice an opinion.

i'm not disputing your right to coment. please feel free. i was mearly making an observation that those making the biggest fuss over this rumor are those with very few posts (newbies). its not a personal attack on newbies, a lot of them may know more than i do, but i noticed a lot of moaning coming from newbies and felt it to be interesting.

[the future]

Those are NOT subnotebooks. Look up the term before you start spouting out such junk. ... The 12" PowerBook which IS a notebook has a 12.1" screen. The Toshiba and Dell both have 12.1" screens as well.

Well, for you screen size seems to define (sub-)notebook, for me an in-built optical drive does. No need to call other opinions "junk".

[Snowy_River]

Speaking to the original thread...you know this means no new Powerbook g5's for a long...long time. And we can all also expect that Rev.A is going to have major problems, so realistically, at the rate Apple's been going, you can expect a reliable and quick g5 PB in 1.75-2 years. sucks, doesn't it? I think I'll just have to suck it up and buy a PB g4.

Why do you think it'll be another 2 years? That makes no sense whatsoever. I could see the technical issues lasting maybe another year, but two? I find that dubious at best. If Apple can't get the PBs away from G4 chips (at least the current flavor of G4s that Moto is producing), then they're going to have some serious problems. Status symbols or not (and yes I do love my 12"PB), the industry isn't going to stand still. Currently the PBs are at the low end of being competitive. If they're still using G4s for two more years, they'll be so hopelessly outclassed by the PC side that Apple would almost do better to simply discontinue the line...

[denm316]

i'm not disputing your right to coment. please feel free. i was mearly making an observation that those making the biggest fuss over this rumor are those with very few posts (newbies). its not a personal attack on newbies, a lot of them may know more than i do, but i noticed a lot of moaning coming from newbies and felt it to be interesting.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way, I totally understand your point, I also think that alot of people who are newbies are also alot of the people waiting for updates. Probably a friend has a mac and told them hey check out this site before you buy. And if I was them I would be annoyed and complaining alot to.

I bought an iBook back in May because it was cheaper because I thought I wouldnt really like Apple, if I knew what I know now about the hardware\software and how much I love everything I would have easily spent the greater amount of money on the 12 inch power book. Since then I have a new PowerMAC and am dying to get my hands on a Powerbook, I just sit here like everyone else and anticipate what might be next for the 12 or the 15, I am not annoyed that they wont be G5's I just want to see some new technology on them thats all.

[SiliconAddict]

Well, for you screen size seems to define (sub-)notebook, for me an in-built optical drive does. No need to call other opinions "junk".

The way your post read you didn't make an opinion. You stated something as fact. That fact being that the system was a subnotebook. A appreciate opinions. Opinions is what makes MR a cool site. Sorry if I misinterpreted you post.
As for subnotebooks typically are the ones that have 80% full sized keyboard. Good examples are the Portage 610CT. Rule of thumb. If you look the at system and think there is no way in hell I could do any work on that thing...you are looking at a subnotebook. The model mentioned above is about 20% larger then a hardbound book. The 12" PowerBook has a fullsized keyboard. Small screen but everything else is full sized. Consider the keyboard in the 17" 15" and 12" PowerBooks are identical.

[TWinbrook46636]

Hmm, the X300 has a 12" 1024x768 screen, just like the 12" AlBook.

It's only 0.1" narrower than the 12" PB (10.8" vs. 10.9"). It's even 0.6" deeper than the 12" PB (9.2" vs. 8.6").

Sorry, but that's not a sub-notebook - it's a full fledged notebook for people who prefer light and thin instead of a builtin DVD....

The "but it's a sub-notebook" is just as hollow as the "but that's a workstation, not a desktop" arguments at the G5 intro! You can't artificially define categories - these are full laptops that compete directly with the 12".

Aluminum dents...

It is not a full laptop unless it has a built-in drive. How is this not a sub-notebook? That's the same as saying you have a desktop-replacement laptop when it doesn't even have ports. Talk about artificially defining categories!

[Peej]

I'm happy with the G4 powerbook, I've got the 1GHz 12" and it's good enough for editing in Photoshop CS, Illustrator, web surfing, and big Excel files. The time I save not figuring out why the PC isn't doing what I want it to MORE than makes up for the supposed lack of speed. The Al G4 PB is in its prime, let's all enjoy it!

peej

[Snowy_River]

The way your post read you didn't make an opinion. You stated something as fact. That fact being that the system was a subnotebook. A appreciate opinions. Opinions is what makes MR a cool site. Sorry if I misinterpreted you post.
As for subnotebooks typically are the ones that have 80% full sized keyboard. Good examples are the Portage 610CT. Rule of thumb. If you look the at system and think there is no way in hell I could do any work on that thing...you are looking at a subnotebook. The model mentioned above is about 20% larger then a hardbound book. The 12" PowerBook has a fullsized keyboard. Small screen but everything else is full sized. Consider the keyboard in the 17" 15" and 12" PowerBooks are identical.

Just to join the fray, you also stated your opinion that these were not subnotebooks as fact, not opinion. In a venue such as this, it's important to realize that things like categorizations are almost always opinions, but will almost always be stated as facts.

The definition of a subnotebook varies. Typically, it is a laptop computer that has taken one or more of the following steps to reduce its size and weight: omission of an optical drive; omission of a floppy drive; smaller screen size; smaller keyboard size. Thus, it could be argued that all of the PowerBooks are subnotebooks, as they all omit a floppy drive. Of course, that would be a false argument, as Apple has given up use of floppy drives altogether. But, if we were to take any one of these as a defining factor for a subnotebook, then the two PC laptops in question do seem to fall into that category.

[apalmleis]

It has been interesting to see this all unfold. I do think that apple will come out with something in very near future. It has to. My PB 15" Ti 1GHz/SD is now 510 days old (purchased 11/15/02) and by looking at the current 15" model, the 1.25 Ghz is only 13-20% faster (depending on which article you read)... so for 17 months, not a large improvement (it does have a Radeon 9600 vs 9000, increase GHz, but they took out the L3 cache). The major improvement was not in speed, but in form factor of increase HD (80 GB vs 60 GB), bluetooth, FW800, airport extreme, backlit keyboard and Aluminum casing. Since last year was the year of the powerbook, it was pretty dismal in announcements. Makes me think that whatever was to occur last year, is going to happen at the beginning of this year. It being April already, there should be something soon. Just my opinion.

[TWinbrook46636]

Just to join the fray, you also stated your opinion that these were not subnotebooks as fact, not opinion. In a venue such as this, it's important to realize that things like categorizations are almost always opinions, but will almost always be stated as facts.

The definition of a subnotebook varies. Typically, it is a laptop computer that has taken one or more of the following steps to reduce its size and weight: omission of an optical drive; omission of a floppy drive; smaller screen size; smaller keyboard size. Thus, it could be argued that all of the PowerBooks are subnotebooks, as they all omit a floppy drive. Of course, that would be a false argument, as Apple has given up use of floppy drives altogether. But, if we were to take any one of these as a defining factor for a subnotebook, then the two PC laptops in question do seem to fall into that category.

I think it is just common sense. There are two other 12.1" laptops from Dell that do have built-in drives so why didn't he compare those? Because he wanted to make it seem like Dell was offering all the same features and performance in a smaller package. This is not true.

If I remove the drive from my 12" iBook will it make it a sub-notebook?

[Photorun]

Tossing my hat in the ring because this seems to be devolving to peecee forums of circle jerking Dull Computer. The school where I work (sadly) went to a lot of Dull junk machines three years ago, overall it was the actual REAL reason any company would do that, not to save money, but to spend more, since the institution was 80/20 Macs/peecees with 8000 students and only three well Mac versed low key not busy IT people, it's flipped in ten years to 20/80 Macs/peecees and now needs 11, always very busy, anti Mac people, mostly from the top, the head IT person, who likes control and will be hiring three more IT people, and must get hummers (not the SUV) from the Dell sleazy rep who I see slinking around in plastic suits and being smarmy... peecees cost more, crash more, and are just not as good. /rant there

As far as laptops there's a few Dulls, they weigh a ton, and quite a few are at the bookstore DOA or stopped working. We opened a cafe and they (stupidly) went with Dull lapbricks (these things weigh a ton), and are clunky, I played on one for a moment or two, choppy perforance with Windoze XtP). There's a station where you rent them out and can surf WiFi at this cafe (I walk in with my iBook all the time, I'd drag my G5 but you know, kinda heavy). In the station there's 24 of them in cubbie holes, of which seven are marked with a "do not use" made sticker. I asked the person behind the counter why and she said they were "busted" or didn't work. Mind you, the cafe was only open two weeks when I asked that.

So that's Dull laptops to a tee. That's also the peecee world and why I'm on a Mac. I tend to like machines that, you know... actually work?! Who'd thunk it! And yes, machines that look better is just an added bonus! :D

[Windowlicker]

although there isn't really any "rumor" or "news" on this article, i still would very much like apple to bump some more power on the models. still not decided if i want an ibook or a powerbook.. starting a job at a local apple retail shop after about a week..

[Gibson424]

New Ipods wouldn't be that bad either, I would get a new top of the line one as soon as they came out thanks to the compusa tap, but the powerbooks and all the rumors and nothing coming out is rediculous. But who cares about a G4 powerbook, when is the G5 coming?

Where did all this talk about new iPods come from? I just invested in a 10 gb (same price as the mini, more than twice the capacity..woohoo!) and it'd be a shame to see a brand spankin' new one released so soon..well..for me anyways. Did I miss something?

[Bhennies]

Why do you think it'll be another 2 years? That makes no sense whatsoever. I could see the technical issues lasting maybe another year, but two? I find that dubious at best. If Apple can't get the PBs away from G4 chips (at least the current flavor of G4s that Moto is producing), then they're going to have some serious problems. Status symbols or not (and yes I do love my 12"PB), the industry isn't going to stand still. Currently the PBs are at the low end of being competitive. If they're still using G4s for two more years, they'll be so hopelessly outclassed by the PC side that Apple would almost do better to simply discontinue the line...
I didn't say that Apple wasn't going to release any powerbook g5 at all for 2 years, I'm talking about rev. B of the g5 powerbook. Assuming that the powerbook g5 is announced next fall-winter and ships a month later (it's NOT going to be announced at WWDC, I think that that's wishful thinking), that will be .75 years from now, and given the way that Apple's been updating their products, the second revision of the powerbook g5 (major revision) will be approx. 9 months to a year later. That makes it 1.75 years until we have a reliable product. I will certainly not risk buying the first model Rev. A g5 powerbook...there's gonna be a lot of problems with it, no question about that. My 2 cents.

[Zaty]

I didn't say that Apple wasn't going to release any powerbook g5 at all for 2 years, I'm talking about rev. B of the g5 powerbook. Assuming that the powerbook g5 is announced next fall-winter and ships a month later (it's NOT going to be announced at WWDC, I think that that's wishful thinking), that will be .75 years from now, and given the way that Apple's been updating their products, the second revision of the powerbook g5 (major revision) will be approx. 9 months to a year later. That makes it 1.75 years until we have a reliable product. I will certainly not risk buying the first model Rev. A g5 powerbook...there's gonna be a lot of problems with it, no question about that. My 2 cents.

I couldn't agree more. If Apple has a roadmap, it will look like this.

[Dave the Great]

guess what... NEXT TUESDAY!! ;)


:D
That's awesome!!

Can't Wait!! :p

[Parikh1234]

Here is Apple's Senior Manager of Inverstor Relations when I emailed him about why the company has come to a standstill. (I have alot of money invested in apple).

Hello Shivam,
Apple has a strict policy of not pre-announcing product or other announcements. We don't provide a product road map or talk about future products under development. We do this for competitive reasons. Our policy can be frustrating to investors, but as an innovator in the PC Industry, we don't feel we have any choice.

Best regards,
Joan Hoover
Sr. Manager, Investor Relations

Well duh, i knew that!

[Some_Big_Spoon]

Just makes you want to cash out your life insurance and write them a check, doesn't it?

Here is Apple's Senior Manager of Inverstor Relations when I emailed him about why the company has come to a standstill. (I have alot of money invested in apple).

Hello Shivam,
Apple has a strict policy of not pre-announcing product or other announcements. We don't provide a product road map or talk about future products under development. We do this for competitive reasons. Our policy can be frustrating to investors, but as an innovator in the PC Industry, we don't feel we have any choice.

Best regards,
Joan Hoover
Sr. Manager, Investor Relations

Well duh, i knew that!

[Phinius]

If Apple can't get the PBs away from G4 chips (at least the current flavor of G4s that Moto is producing), then they're going to have some serious problems.

Why do so many Mac users come to the erroneous conclusion that the G4 cannot or will not get significant performance improvements? Last year Motorola stated that the G4 will double in frequency approximately every 18 months. Since the G4 reached 1Ghz at the end of January in 2003, that means Motorola expects the G4 to reach 2 GHz about the end of July this year. This upcoming G4 is scheduled to get a on-board memory controller, the capability for DDR-2 memory, RapidIO (similar to Hyperthreading) and also have a dual-processor chip. An Apple spokesperson has publicly stated that Apple has no intentions of dropping the G4 in the near term and that Motorola continues to improve the design.

There are several ways to get higher performance from a processor. One of those is MHz. But it can also be had by adding more on-board cache like the Pentium-M, and also by using a on-board memory controller or putting two processors on a chip like the Power4.

The Pentium-M is expected to reach 2.17 GHz with the process shrink coming from Dothan in May. The G4s performance should stack up very well against the Pentium-M in about July, with the G4s expected aforementioned improvements.

Motorola also mentioned that the G4 will get architectural improvements to bring it to 3+ GHz. That would probably mean extending the pipeline stages to about 10 from it's current 7 stages. The G4 started out at 4 pipeline stages which the IBM 970 is currently at.

[Sonofhaig]

Here is Apple's Senior Manager of Inverstor Relations when I emailed him about why the company has come to a standstill. (I have alot of money invested in apple).

Hello Shivam,
Apple has a strict policy of not pre-announcing product or other announcements. We don't provide a product road map or talk about future products under development. We do this for competitive reasons. Our policy can be frustrating to investors, but as an innovator in the PC Industry, we don't feel we have any choice.

Best regards,
Joan Hoover
Sr. Manager, Investor Relations

Well duh, i knew that!


"I emailed him about why the company has come to a standstill..."
I totally agree now on this! APPLE, what the heck is going on?
"Throw me a frickin bone here..." I have never been so bored being an Apple fan! :(

[Snowy_River]

If I remove the drive from my 12" iBook will it make it a sub-notebook?

Well, no. But if Apple were to remove the drive in order to reduce the form-factor and the weight, then yes... http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg

[Snowy_River]

Why do so many Mac users come to the erroneous conclusion that the G4 cannot or will not get significant performance improvements? ... This upcoming G4 is scheduled to get a on-board memory controller, the capability for DDR-2 memory, RapidIO (similar to Hyperthreading) and also have a dual-processor chip....

Well, then that would be a different flavor of G4, now wouldn't it? Didn't I say that the problem would be if Apple couldn't get away from the current flavor of G4 (i.e. limited FSB, limited clockspeed, etc.)? I think that most Mac users are dubious about Moto's continuing advancement of the G4 because they really don't have a great track record of advancing the G4. It's all good that they say they're going to do something, but actions speak louder than words, and at this point we've seen a bit too much inaction from Moto to trust their words...

[ccuilla]

I think most of us realize that, with regard to product announcements and road maps, Apple is somewhat unique in this industry. They appear to get a fair amount of mileage out of the "thunder" they create when they surprise people. They also, generally, establish a competitive head start that could be, often, easily eclipsed if important new things leaked.

A great example of this was the rumored McDonald's music give away deal. Whether Apple was really doing something or not we don't know. But suppose they were, and it leaked (as it appears to have). Now a fierce competitor (Sony) discovers that a) McDonald's is interested in music, and b) they are willing to deal on it, and c) they better move fast to see if they can screw Apple out of the contract.

We may not like this secrecy very much, but it is a reality, perhaps a necessary one. When, if such a time ever happens, Apple were to regain market share...say into the 10-20% range, it is possible this approach could change. Though I doubt it.

The new machines will get here when they do. All of the hand-wringing and chastizing Apple won't accelerate the process at all.

One other thing I would add is this...some things take time. Sometimes there is a tough problem to solve...a problem (or problems) that most of us will NEVER know about. Why? Because it is none of a) our business, and b) our concern.

So many folks in these boards seem to operate from the eminently irrational position that "Because I want it to be, so it should be." Sorry to tell you, it doesn't work this way.

[apalmleis]

Why do so many Mac users come to the erroneous conclusion that the G4 cannot or will not get significant performance improvements? Last year Motorola stated that the G4 will double in frequency approximately every 18 months. Since the G4 reached 1Ghz at the end of January in 2003, that means Motorola expects the G4 to reach 2 GHz about the end of July this year .



Umm, I recieved my 1 GHz Ti PB on November 15, 2002... 17 months ago. Therefore, according to your calculations, then next month we should be at 2 gHz, but we are still at 1.25 for the 15" PB....

[tabascoishot]

not at all... and its overpriced... and it runs windows...

ill still take a powerbook any day of the week...

dell = ford/chevy <-- they can make it as thin and crippled as they want
but it will never be a status symbol...

I'm a switcher, and am very happy with my ibook, but the neccessity of having a computer as a "status symbol" was never my motivation for using a mac. We as mac users recognize that there are specialized tasks (for me using FCP) that our computers excel at.

You throw around the term "status symbol" like those upper east side girls that purchase every single iPod Mini color just for the "neccessity" to accessorize. Sure, I have gotten compliments on the iBook's styling, but this is because most people have never SEEN one. I appreciate the things that my mac does well (and it is a superior laptop to nearly every pc one out there), but it's not a measure of status to me.

I actually prefer using the mac in anonymity. Look at the iPods now. Here in New York City I've heard the term "iPod as$holes" thrown around more than a couple times. The broke college student (myself) is sacrificing to use the toys of the elite, upper crust, WASP-y, and white (kind of a given)!!

The moment pc apps become as usuable and friendly as FCP and iLife (probably never, but you never know) I'll probably head right back. Before you get your panties in a bunch and start calling me a "sellout," I"ll tell you my reasoning. Whether you like Michael Dell or not, he's right in calling Apple the "Bang and Olufson" of the computer business. If a web browser and word processing work on a PC equally well, what's the motivation to spend at least $1k more on a mac? Just b/c you can AFFORD it doesn't mean you should do it. Rich people didn't get rich by being stupid (unless you count J.Lo's mom). So you can color-code and prioritize your icons? Whirl around Expose and show how much of a OS X hotshot you are?

So in conclusion, you're not hot ***** because of you have a mac and it should not be representative of what you've got in your wallet, but instead what's up in your head.

[~Shard~]

Ooooh, another Motorola G4 update for the PowerBook - well, at Motorola's current pace of processor speed advancement, all I can say is, "Bring on the 1.34 GHz G4 17" PowerBooks!" :rolleyes:

[tsk]

not at all... and its overpriced... and it runs windows...

ill still take a powerbook any day of the week...

dell = ford/chevy <-- they can make it as thin and crippled as they want
but it will never be a status symbol...

Geesh. Good to know what you guys want in a computer. A freaking status symbol?

I want a computer that does what I want it to do and I don't really give a rats behind what other people think about it.

Sorry but talking about your computer as a status symbol is pretty lame. About as lame as buying a certain car to impress people.

[Snowy_River]

...The moment pc apps become as usuable and friendly as FCP and iLife (probably never, but you never know) I'll probably head right back. Before you get your panties in a bunch and start calling me a "sellout," I"ll tell you my reasoning. Whether you like Michael Dell or not, he's right in calling Apple the "Bang and Olufson" of the computer business. If a web browser and word processing work on a PC equally well, what's the motivation to spend at least $1k more on a mac?...

Well, first, I, personally, would never call you a sellout. Computers are just tools, after all. But, even though there are many of the apps that I use that are either 100% cross platform, and behave the same on both platforms, or have Windows equivalents that are on a par with their Mac counterparts as far as usability are concerned, I'll still choose a Mac. Why? Simple. There's more to using a computer than just the applications that you run on it. I spend my time in heck http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg when I work on friends and clients PCs trying to get Windows to behave itself. The ease with which I can use Mac OS (9 or X) is why I will continue to choose Macs. So, the caveat that I'd add is that once Windows achieves the same ease of use and security that Mac OS has, and the applications I want to run have the same ease of use as the Mac versions, then I'll consider switching.

However, I suspect it'll be a cold day in heck before those qualifications are met...
http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg

[Snowy_River]

Geesh. Good to know what you guys want in a computer. A freaking status symbol?

I want a computer that does what I want it to do and I don't really give a rats behind what other people think about it.

Sorry but talking about your computer as a status symbol is pretty lame. About as lame as buying a certain car to impress people.

While my purposes for buying a Mac are the same as yours, I do admit to liking the attention that it brings when I pull it out.

However, I must also say that not all of that attention is good. I've had more than a couple of people see that glowing apple and start to tell me exactly why Macs suck and I'm stupid to own one. http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/rolleyes.jpg

[Bhennies]

I actually prefer using the mac in anonymity. Look at the iPods now. Here in New York City I've heard the term "iPod as$holes" thrown around more than a couple times. The broke college student (myself) is sacrificing to use the toys of the elite, upper crust, WASP-y, and white (kind of a given)!!

That's funny that you say that about iPod a$$holes in New York, I also live in NYC, and i bought a replacement pair of headphones for my ipod that don't have that flashy white cord. So many idiot hipsters walk around and get jumped cause people know they've got an ipod. Stupid.

[ThomasJefferson]

Crud.
I stay away for a whole week, (Spring Break) and still no Apple updates.
Bummer.

On another note, I have found out the hard way that I am allergic to Amoxicillin and all other 'cillins. Visualize one big rash from the waist up.

What an exciting Spring Break this has been. I wonder what I can do for an encore. :mad:

[aswitcher]

Ooooh, another Motorola G4 update for the PowerBook - well, at Motorola's current pace of processor speed advancement, all I can say is, "Bring on the 1.34 GHz G4 17" PowerBooks!" :rolleyes:

And that's rounding up from 1.305 GHz... ;)

[Unregistered.]

I don't care what anybody says, Apple's Sucking Again(TM). This "great year" will soon be half over, and the nice competitive lead we had with the G5s is GONE. Apple pissed it away. I know they'll hype up whatever they release next, but it's going to be disappointing anyway once the Reality Distortion Field from a star-studded Stevenote wears off. Hopefully Apple remembers they are a computer company soon, because they're looking more like a gadget company who also makes computers as a side business. Apple's never been so close to losing me as a customer. They've already lost other people I know, even a hardcore graphic designer, one of the guys who converted me! I've completely given up promoting Apple to my friends -- it's embarrassing to pull out my laptop and watch them pull out something better from the PC side and proceed to KICK MY APPLE'S ASS. Even WindowsXP is pretty good now... I hate to admit it. And when they ask me what Apple's been up to I change the subject.

The upside of all this is that there are so many people pissed off and giving up on Apple that they'll definitely release something good soon. Sales are hopefully already drying up -- that's the only thing that makes Apple release new computers. If people keep buying the current PowerBooks at the current speeds, why would Apple bother upgrading them? They wouldn't. They're basically printing money. There's no R&D costs and they are selling last year's discount components at a premium price. They'll just keep making more and more 1.25Ghz's until we - the consumer - demand better gear. Then Apple will have to catch up with the Wintel world or go under. If sales of the old iMacs at 266Mhz had never dried up and Apple was still selling a million a week we'd still be stuck at 266Mhz. Because Apple could meet their sales and profit goals without doing any work at all. They have to serve the shareholder's interests above the customer's interests by law. They have to do whatever they can to maximize profits. So if people are still buying the old stuff, they'll keep selling it until the market dries up and FORCES them to innovate. Why do you think they are known for innovation and Microsoft isn't? Marketshare. Since Apple has such a small marketshare, they HAVE to innovate to stay alive. Microsoft can sit on their butt and monopolize things. Apple can't. Apple has to hustle. But they tend to get lazy when they get arrogant and think they're unbeatable.... hmmm... like the iPods and the iTMS, perhaps? Theoretically, if they make enough money off iPods, their shareholders (mostly large banks and mutual and pension funds) will DEMAND they drop their less profitable lines to focus on what makes them the most money.

The only way to get increases is to vote with your wallet, and walk if they don't deliver. But Apple knows we won't do that, so they can abuse us however they want. They know we won't leave. We're like battered wives who keep coming back to their husbands over and over again.

This is desperation talking, btw.

[seanessey]

I think Apple is still YEARS ahead of MS Windows, as well as Linux, in terms of overall user experience, which includes UI, and overall reliability.
I could really care less if the latest Athlon chip outguns the current G5, I'd never go back to the Windows experience. I have a computer, and an OS which fulfill my needs very well.

I am keen for updates, too, but I can see myself holding out for a G5 PB 12".

And if I have to continue using my humble G3 iBook 12" till 2005, I'm OK with that. I don't know if I'd feel the same way if I was using WinXP machines...

I do realize that there are users in the life sciences and in the movie business who REALLY do need faster CPUs, but things are steadily improving...

Hopefully Apple is doing more QC on these forthcoming updates, to redeem it's tarnished reputation of late...

[Les Kern]

My 150 laptops were delivered yeasterday, so the rev can officially begin. :P

[ccuilla]

This "great year" will soon be half over

Will it? Really? Hmmmm...it is April 8th! It is just over THREE months into the year. By my math that doesn't translate into "soon be half over."

and the nice competitive lead we had with the G5s is GONE. Apple pissed it away.

Have they? Really? What other product can you buy that is significantly better than the PM G5 (in the same price range)?

it's embarrassing to pull out my laptop and watch them pull out something better from the PC side and proceed to KICK MY APPLE'S ASS.

It is? Really? Which Apple laptop do you own? Which are your friends pulling out?


Even WindowsXP is pretty good now... I hate to admit it. And when they ask me what Apple's been up to I change the subject.

Now you lost pretty much all credibility. Now, Admittedly, XP has come along way for MS...but OS X is the clear winner by most people that know both.

The upside of all this is that there are so many people pissed off and giving up on Apple that they'll definitely release something good soon.

Yes, that is exactly how Apple decides to release products. It has nothing to do with engineering cycles, supplier management, inventory management, marketing and sales plans and schedules. They just wait until everyone is really pissed off.


If people keep buying the current PowerBooks at the current speeds, why would Apple bother upgrading them? They wouldn't. They're basically printing money. There's no R&D costs and they are selling last year's discount components at a premium price.

Exactly. That's what businesses do. They try to make a profit. And if they are selling the current product...all of it...they are, apparently, selling to a willing market.


The only way to get increases is to vote with your wallet, and walk if they don't deliver.

Yes, and people that are buying right now are doing just that. The people that aren't are also.

But Apple knows we won't do that, so they can abuse us however they want.

Apple is abusing you? That's rich. The best one I've heard yet.

[patriotn11]

To Sir Advocate,

I thank you for your help, you have just about pushed me through the threashold of my first Apple purchuse,

hail to the Advocate...................... :D

patriont11 :D

[Phinius]

I think that most Mac users are dubious about Moto's continuing advancement of the G4 because they really don't have a great track record of advancing the G4. It's all good that they say they're going to do something, but actions speak louder than words, and at this point we've seen a bit too much inaction from Moto to trust their words...

Let's look at Motorola's track record for advancing the G4 over the past 4 years by using the dates when Apple introduced it into a product.

Feb. 16th 2000-500 MHz with a off chip level 2 cache and 100 MHz bus
Jan. 9th 2001-733 MHz, on chip level 2 cache, 1 MB level 3 cache, 133 MHz bus
July 18th 2001-867 MHz, 2 MB level 3 cache
Jan. 28th 2002-1 GHz and SOI
Aug. 13th 2002-1.25 GHz by adding low k-dielectric to silicon wafer
Jan. 28th 2003-1.42 GHz by boosting voltage
Sept 16th 2003-1.33 GHz produced on smaller .13-micron chip making process

Discounting the introduction of the 1.25 and 1.42 GHz G4 chips, the G4 moved from 500 MHz to 1.33 MHz in 43 months.

Compare the G4s progress in % of MHz increase in 43 months to where the Pentium 4 would have to be to match it. The Pentium 4 started out at 1.5 GHz in November of 2000. Moving 43 months beyond that would take us to June of 2004 and the P4 would have to be at 3.9 GHz to match the % of MHz increases that the G4 had in that period of time. Intel has stated the Pentium 4 will reach 4 GHz in the fourth quarter. Compare that to Motorola's statement that the G4 will double in MHz about every 18 months and that means the G4 will reach 2 GHz in about July or August of this year. That quite frankly is not slow progression compared to Intel's advancing the P4.

The G4 has much more potential for use in a portable notebook computer than IBM's 970 chip. Moving the G4 to a smaller process and boosting it to 2 GHz will probably only produce an average of about 16 watts of power use. Compare that to IBM's stated 25 watts of power use for the 970 at 2 GHz. Both chips running at the same MHz, I would bet on this improved G4 beating the performance of the 970 soundly.

[liketom]

well i'm a switcher and i love my apple ,but i have tasted the low end apple now (iBook ) and am keen to see what they pull out of the hat next . I have been ready to buy a new mac for the past 2 months but silly me i keep reading all the hype and rumours ,and with stevey boy at SF macworld saying this year was going to be the best every ?? i think he said that ... so i have put the credit card on the back burner and resisted to urge to click process order on the apple store many many times since.

so please let the wait be over and release some new kit

my pennys worth


tom



Have you seen my home made apple advert hehe

Apple advert (http://www.liketom.co.uk) right click apple logo and save that baby

[aswitcher]

Let's look at Motorola's track record for advancing the G4 over the past 4 years by using the dates when Apple introduced it into a product.

SNIP

The G4 has much more potential for use in a portable notebook computer than IBM's 970 chip. Moving the G4 to a smaller process and boosting it to 2 GHz will probably only produce an average of about 16 watts of power use. Compare that to IBM's stated 25 watts of power use for the 970 at 2 GHz. Both chips running at the same MHz, I would bet on this improved G4 beating the performance of the 970 soundly.

Clock speed is one thing, and I see where your going with this but what about the bus speed. Thats the current crippler and nothing seems to be being done about it.

Why should I switch to the next evolution PBG4 this year which may sun at 1.5Ghz (up from 1.25 for the 15") but still has a 167mhz bus...?

[Phinius]

Clock speed is one thing, and I see where your going with this but what about the bus speed. Thats the current crippler and nothing seems to be being done about it.

The G4 will have a on-board memory controller and will have the capability for using DDR-2 memory. Again, that chip should be arriving in July or August if the doubling of frequency in 18 months plan still holds.

Why should I switch to the next evolution PBG4 this year which may sun at 1.5Ghz (up from 1.25 for the 15") but still has a 167mhz bus...?

The announced 1.5GHz G4 is simply a boost in frequency on the same .13-micron process size. Moving the G4 to a smaller .09-micron chip making process size will boost the topend frequency to at least 2 GHz. Don't believe that? Well, the last move to a smaller process size for the G4 got about a 33% improvement in frequency (1 GHz to 1.33 GHz). Take the upcoming topend 1.5 GHz of the .13-micron process size and multiply that times 1.33 and voila! You get a frequency of about 2 GHz, just as Motorola is predicting.

Also... with the G4 moving to a on-board memory controller there is much less need for the use of a L3 cache.

The G4 is also going to come out as a two processor chip. That was approved last year by Motorola. Which means running at 2 GHz, with two processors, the chip should perform very well and use only about 35 watts average.

Motorola had plans of improving the G4 chip architecture to enable speeds of 3 GHz+. That would probably entail moving it from 7 pipeline stages to perhaps 10. Similar to what Motorola did by moving the G4 from 4 pipeline stages to 7. The power use would still remain very low, with a much higher performance.

[aswitcher]

The G4 will have a on-board memory controller and will have the capability for using DDR-2 memory. Again, that chip should be arriving in July or August if the doubling of frequency in 18 months plan still holds.


Well that timing makes me think I jump to G5PB is more likely than PBs getting a new G4 after WWDC. Sure a slight bump might appear at WWDC but I think the G5PB is well and truely the real deal for the next PB...


The announced 1.5GHz G4 is simply a boost in frequency on the same .13-micron process size. Moving the G4 to a smaller .09-micron chip making process size will boost the topend frequency to at least 2 GHz. Don't believe that? Well, the last move to a smaller process size for the G4 got about a 33% improvement in frequency (1 GHz to 1.33 GHz). Take the upcoming topend 1.5 GHz of the .13-micron process size and multiply that times 1.33 and voila! You get a frequency of about 2 GHz, just as Motorola is predicting.

Sorry, how does this really address the bus bottleneck issue? (I'm not an engineer...)

[Phinius]

Well that timing makes me think I jump to G5PB is more likely than PBs getting a new G4 after WWDC. Sure a slight bump might appear at WWDC but I think the G5PB is well and truely the real deal for the next PB...

The 970 was moved to a smaller process size and yet the L2 cache size was not increased. That points towards IBM wanting to shrink the die size considerably to perhaps reduce the costs of manufacturing. But it could also have been done to reduce the power use of the chip in order for it to be used in a notebook computer. I have a feeling that Apple was more interested in getting the frequency boost, and forego the added 10-15% speed from doubling the cache size, in order to get the G5 into the PowerBooks.

Sorry, how does this really address the bus bottleneck issue? (I'm not an engineer...)

Having a onboard memory controller reduces the latency to and from memory by having direct communication with the memory, instead of going through the extra step of a Northbridge on the chipset. That's an advantage the Opteron currently has over the Pentium 4.

Currently the G4 bus can only fed the processor at a topend speed of 167 MHz, which is half the speed that 333 MHz DDR memory can deliver. DDR-2 memory should be coming out at 533 MHz in the next few months.

The upcoming G4 will also use RapidIO, which is a chip connection feature that is similar to AMD's HyperTransport used in the Opteron.

All-in-all the G4 should be getting a big boost in performance in the next few months.

[aswitcher]

SNIP

Currently the G4 bus can only fed the processor at a topend speed of 167 MHz, which is half the speed that 333 MHz DDR memory can deliver. DDR-2 memory should be coming out at 533 MHz in the next few months.

The upcoming G4 will also use RapidIO, which is a chip connection feature that is similar to AMD's HyperTransport used in the Opteron.

All-in-all the G4 should be getting a big boost in performance in the next few months.

So the bus will be used more efficiently? Will it be faster in raw MHz?

But July/August, I still think that even if a new PB G4 come sout it will be by WWDC and the next one after that will have to be a G5PB, even if its next year...

I can see this chip making the iBooks...

[powerofthekiwi]

So in conclusion, you're not hot ***** because of you have a mac and it should not be representative of what you've got in your wallet, but instead what's up in your head.

Amen to that

[Phinius]

So the bus will be used more efficiently? Will it be faster in raw MHz?

Well the current G4 bus speed is limited to 167 MHz, but with a onboard memory controller that can be increased to the speed of the memory, such as 333 MHz, 400 MHz or the upcoming 533 MHz.

[aswitcher]

[QUOTE=aswitcher]So the bus will be used more efficiently? Will it be faster in raw MHz?[QUOTE]

Well the current G4 bus speed is limited to 167 MHz, but with a onboard memory controller that can be increased to the speed of the memory, such as 333 MHz, 400 MHz or the upcoming 533 MHz.

But doesn't the bus sit between the processor and the memory? So won't it still be a signficant bottleneck? :confused:

[Phinius]

But doesn't the bus sit between the processor and the memory? So won't it still be a signficant bottleneck? :confused:

The only so called 'bottleneck', with a onboard memory controller, would be the limit of the speed of the memory. By using dual-channel memory, such as the G5, the potential speed of the memory fed to the processor can be doubled and the latency (or reaction time) would be reduced by having a onboard controller. So, instead of say a 400 MHz from a single memory channel, it would be 800 MHz using two 400 MHz channels.

[aswitcher]

The only so called 'bottleneck', with a onboard memory controller, would be the limit of the speed of the memory. By using dual-channel memory, such as the G5, the potential speed of the memory fed to the processor can be doubled and the latency (or reaction time) would be reduced by having a onboard controller. So, instead of say a 400 MHz from a single memory channel, it would be 800 MHz using two 400 MHz channels.

Ok, so what does this mean for the new G4? It only has single 167MHz memory channel right??? Sorry, I am being a bit thick...

[Phinius]

Ok, so what does this mean for the new G4? It only has single 167MHz memory channel right??? Sorry, I am being a bit thick...

The just announced 7447A G4, made on a .13-micron process will be limited to a 167 MHz bus, to the best of my knowledge.

The upcoming smaller .09-micron process G4 will have the memory controller moved onto the processor, which will reduce the latency by shortening the distance that the information has to travel to and from memory.

Motorola also upped the maximum speeds that information can be fed to and from memory on this .09-micron process G4 chip. Currently 333 MHz DDR memory can only be fed to the processor at a maximum of 167 MHz. The upcoming changes moves that maximum to a potential 333 MHz, 400 MHz, 533 MHz or more, depending on the speed of the memory. Using two channels of memory on a motherboard will double that to 666 MHz, 800 MHz, 1066 MHz etc. I would expect Apple to announce the next PowerMac to use dual-channel 533 MHz DDR-2 memory or perhaps even dual-channel 667 MHz DDR-2 memory.

Unfortunately, if you use dual-channel memory for a notebook computer it raises the power use, along with costs. An advantage the G4 will have over the G5 is that it will probably not need dual-channel memory to match the G5s performance at the same frequency. Or at the least the differences in performance will be quite small. Consider that Apple states that the 2 GHz PowerMac is only 60% faster than the 1.42 GHz G4 PowerMac. The 2 Ghz G5 has a 41% higher frequency than a 1.42 GHz G4. That leaves only a 19% speed advantage outside of the frequency differences. Much, if not all of that can be minimized by I/O upgrades to the G4, as I have mentioned above.

[jjmaximum]

When the new PBs come out, I will be upgrading my 867/15" and am considering going to a 17". I don't 'need' the bigger screen, but would certainly like the extra space. My concern is the increased weight/footprint of the 17 since I use it alot on my lap on the couch in the evening. Any comments from current users of a 17 regarding real-world everyday use would be appreciated pro or con.

[Hattig]

Yep, you're right about that. That L3 helps the Dual 1.42 beat out the G5 at times.. I miss that L3..

Apple said, when specifically asked why no L3 in the G5, that the 970 was so fast that it wasn't needed, and that the L3 was in the previous chips to help with crap bus speed and CPU drag.. but you'd think they'd throw it in anyway.. I mean, Apple's top of the line, right? So throw everything in and the kitchen sink, but I'm not running the company, so I don't get a say.

The PPC970 doesn't support L3 cache. You can't have something that isn't supported.

The G4 (well, the 745x ones) do support L3 cache, hence it is supported.

They are different processors apart from the instruction set. In some things the G4 will beat the 970 - it has a lot less stages for a start, so hard-to-predict branching code will do a lot better on it for a start.

[Hattig]

Edit: AI says Apple wants to make thinner both the 12" PB and the 12" iBook. I highly doubt they're changing the design of the cases for the comming release. Thinner 12incher may be an objective for the release after next (possibly G5 PBs) though.

Nice, I'd be interesting in a thinner 12" iBook, possibly a thinner 12" PowerBook ... if the latter was widescreen (1280x768) that would push me enough to go for it over a 12" 1024x768 iBook. Hell, I would really like a 10" widescreen PowerBook/iBook variant to be honest.

Hopefully this means that Apple has realised that IF they cannot get a G5 into the current PowerBook enclosure, than they need to make a fatter eBook/DeskBook/PowerDesk/PowerBookPro/etc with a G5 for people that don't need sexy, but do need capable whilst being luggable. Hopefully this also means that Apple are nearly finished with making this G5 based powerful notebook as well.

I'm not hoping though.

[aswitcher]

The just announced 7447A G4, made on a .13-micron process will be limited to a 167 MHz bus, to the best of my knowledge.

The upcoming smaller .09-micron process G4 will have the memory controller moved onto the processor, which will reduce the latency by shortening the distance that the information has to travel to and from memory.

Thanks. Ok, so this isn't appearing anytime soon...keeps making em think G5 for the PB


Motorola also upped the maximum speeds that information can be fed to and from memory on this .09-micron process G4 chip. Currently 333 MHz DDR memory can only be fed to the processor at a maximum of 167 MHz. The upcoming changes moves that maximum to a potential 333 MHz, 400 MHz, 533 MHz or more, depending on the speed of the memory. Using two channels of memory on a motherboard will double that to 666 MHz, 800 MHz, 1066 MHz etc. I would expect Apple to announce the next PowerMac to use dual-channel 533 MHz DDR-2 memory or perhaps even dual-channel 667 MHz DDR-2 memory.

Unfortunately, if you use dual-channel memory for a notebook computer it raises the power use, along with costs. An advantage the G4 will have over the G5 is that it will probably not need dual-channel memory to match the G5s performance at the same frequency. Or at the least the differences in performance will be quite small. Consider that Apple states that the 2 GHz PowerMac is only 60% faster than the 1.42 GHz G4 PowerMac. The 2 Ghz G5 has a 41% higher frequency than a 1.42 GHz G4. That leaves only a 19% speed advantage outside of the frequency differences. Much, if not all of that can be minimized by I/O upgrades to the G4, as I have mentioned above.

Ok. I still think the powerline will go 64bit asap to distinguish it from the "i"line, to provide the most bang and to support future 64bit optomisation. The G4 you mention sounds pretty nice but I think its destined for the ibook...maybe the imac...

[pilf]

Ok, im new to Mac, and i've been interested in the 15 inch Mac Powerbook G4 SuperDrive laptop, i'm not sure though with all this talk about a powerbook G5 coming soon if i should go ahead and get the 15' G4, are there any suggestions about what and when i should purchase my Powerbook...

pilf


p.s. i also heard rumors that when the G5 Powerbook comes out it will only be availible in the 17', is there anyone that could clear that up??? :)

[aswitcher]

Ok, im new to Mac, and i've been interested in the 15 inch Mac Powerbook G4 SuperDrive laptop, i'm not sure though with all this talk about a powerbook G5 coming soon if i should go ahead and get the 15' G4, are there any suggestions about what and when i should purchase my Powerbook...

pilf


p.s. i also heard rumors that when the G5 Powerbook comes out it will only be availible in the 17', is there anyone that could clear that up??? :)

Ok, we nothing for certain about the G5PB. Many expect it this year, some next.

The Apple World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC) at the end of June is likely to be a date where we see new hardware and get release dates. High expectation exists for new versions or entirely new form factors for most of the Apple line. We might see new G5PBs then, but even if we do it could be 3+ months before they ship...or they might eb ready right away...

The 17 could be the first model to get the G5 I GUESS because its got more room for cooling and ram. But the 15 is a very important seller and needs to see the G5 as well. I am not sure if the 12 and 15 would remain G4 whilst the 17 would go G5, but its possible. 15" G5 would have to follow within a few months if that happened I would hazard to say.

There is pretty good reasoning to suggest that rather than a G5PB we will see the last of the G4PBs released, with anything from minor to signifcant upgrades to screen resolution, graphics card, processor speed of course, dvd speed, HDD speed, new standard features etc. It might even be a bit cheaper or at least push down the prices of the current machines in the market. If this happened then G5PBs could be anything from August to early 2005 (likely January wheh Steve gives his next keynote). To complicate things there is also a major event in September 2004 which might be used...

So if you can wait then you'll see some new stuff but be mindful it could be 9 months at the outside (I bloody well hope its no longer) before the G5PBs are available. I have expectations for end of June at the WWDC...I am waiting...

[Phinius]

Ok. I still think the powerline will go 64bit asap to distinguish it from the "i"line, to provide the most bang and to support future 64bit optomisation. The G4 you mention sounds pretty nice but I think its destined for the ibook...maybe the imac...

My bet is that the G5 is going into at least some PowerBooks before the end of July and the G4 will continue in Apple's non-topend products that need less power use. Apple might have a problem of only being able to update the PowerBooks close to a yearly basis though. I can't see the next 9XX processor (which should be based on the Power5 chip) using as little watts as the 970fx. It will probably be larger and will use more of its resources at any one time, hence more power used. In fact, the Power5 is expected to use about 30 more watts than the Power4+ and it's about 24% larger due to the addition of IBM's version of Hyperthreading (simultaneous multithreading or SMT).

P.S., the next version of the G5, after the 970fx, should also include a onboard memory controller as I've stated about the upcoming G4 revision.

I'd say the upper limit for 970fx speed in the current PowerBooks is at the most 2 GHz. Anything beyond that would probably require a thicker case.

Apple might be wise to follow the PC lead and create a thicker notebook to use as a desktop replacement. That way there could be a 3 GHz G5 PowerBook created in the near future and a lot of Mac users would be ecstatic.

As a sidenote: The Pentium M runs at 600 MHz in standard battery mode. Only when plugged into a wall outlet do the Pentium 4-M or Pentium-M chips run at listed topend frequency. I would find it hard to believe that the Pentium-M running at 600 MHz is computing as fast as a 1 GHz+ G4 in a PowerBook.

[aswitcher]

SNIP

I'd say the upper limit for 970fx speed in the current PowerBooks is at the most 2 GHz. Anything beyond that would probably require a thicker case.
SNIP

As a sidenote: The Pentium M runs at 600 MHz in standard battery mode. Only when plugged into a wall outlet do the Pentium 4-M or Pentium-M chips run at listed topend frequency. I would find it hard to believe that the Pentium-M running at 600 MHz is computing as fast as a 1 GHz+ G4 in a PowerBook.

Thats interesting... I wonder if Apple's Panther G5 power management might allow similiar options to extend battery life when not requiring the cycles...

As for thicker case, I guess but this is Steve. I am not sure he would allow that even if the physics said otherwise. Someone else suggested that the 17 may be the onyl one to get the G5 treatment...which might make sense because of the extra room for ram and cooling...

[Phinius]

Thats interesting... I wonder if Appler Panther G5 power management might allow similiar options to extend battery life when not requiring the cycles...

The latest G5 has some power saving features, but I'm not aware of any that are as drastic as what Intel has implemented.

As for thicker case, I guess but this is Steve. I am not sure he would allow that even if the physics said otherwise. Someone else suggested that the 17 may be the onyl one to get the G5 treatment...which might make sense because of the extra room for ram and cooling...

The need for a thicker case is mainly due to the size of the heatsink covering the processor. That was pointed out by Apple's head of hardware engineering in a interview. His response to a question about getting the first version of the G5 in a PowerBook in the near future was something like 'Have you seen the size of the heatsinks in the PowerMacs?' The G5 had to shrink in size and power use in order to even consider using the G5 in a PowerBook and that is exactly what has happened with the 970fx. IBM cut the G5s size and power use drastically with the 970fx.

[pilf]

thanks for the information aswitcher and phinius, one more question though, if you were to purchase the PBG4 15' super, what upgrades would you get if any... and for what would you get them :confused:

[uberman42]

From Life of Brian:

FOLLOWERS:
He is! He is the Messiah!
BRIAN:
Now, **** off!
[silence]
ARTHUR:
How shall we **** off, O Lord?

Parallels? :rolleyes:

that was ****ing funny :p

I say we all just stay away from this speculation and irrational exuberance, catch a ballgame at your local teams yard, drink some iced tea, and chat with friends at the beach. Check in at june feeling refreshed...only to find out that the memory and display deal has been extended to september with no new product updates. Only till then do we go into the fetal position and suck our thumbs, rocking in sheer madness at what our beloved platform has done unto us.

[Hattig]

thanks for the information aswitcher and phinius, one more question though, if you were to purchase the PBG4 15' super, what upgrades would you get if any... and for what would you get them :confused:
I'd get a forklift truck to carry the notebook around with me. Unless that 15' screen could be folded up somehow :P

What do I want from an Apple PowerBook later this year?

- Decent processor & performance. No more bus limited G4s. I don't mind a G4 running faster with a new bus, or with integrated memory controller though - it doesn't have to be a G5.

- Base memory configuration to be decent - 256MB at least

- Widescreen displays at 12", 15" and 17"

- The OS to support that nifty touchpad zoning feature. Dump the button on the Powerbook and just have a larger touchpad with a "button" area. Then have a panel in the OS to either have "Basic Function" - the standard operation, or "Advanced function" that sets up 3 "buttons" along the top, and scroll wheel action on the right/bottom and Exposé when tapping the left side (all configurable).

- All keyboards to be lit, even on the 12"

I would like to see Apple create a subnotebook:

- 10" and 12" display options, widescreen
- Slimmer (no optical drive)

and I'd like to see Apple create a "deskbook":

- G5
- Bigger case for cooling, drives, extra features
- Still widescreen. 15" and 17" options, maybe 19" (why not, it is a luggable, not a portable)

What will Apple do?

- Tweak current notebooks and do nothing to increase market share

[hulugu]

that was ****ing funny :p

I say we all just stay away from this speculation and irrational exuberance, catch a ballgame at your local teams yard, drink some iced tea, and chat with friends at the beach. Check in at june feeling refreshed...only to find out that the memory and display deal has been extended to september with no new product updates. Only till then do we go into the fetal position and suck our thumbs, rocking in sheer madness at what our beloved platform has done unto us.

Now this was ****ing hilarious. You have me convinced, I'm going to Europe on vacation, be back around June. Hopefully something cool will arrive and Jobs 'Just one more thing' will be cooler than multi-colored iPods.

[jade]

Apple makes computers? I thought they were the ipod company.

[mig]

Apple makes computers? I thought they were the ipod company.

I guess that is exactly the problem. I don't think that Apple doesn't want or simply cannot release new products. They just attend too many parties at the same time. With the ipod they entered a mass consumer market, which they haven't been serving ever before. They are now more occupied with themselves than with their products. I wouldn't be surprised if Steve's next "one more thing" is the announcement of a restructuring of the company: Apple E.A.T. (Entertainment: all about ipod, Art: all about computer, Technology: all about software and development). Three different companies under one holding - and everybody can focus again on what they are good at. Just a guess though.

But in the end of the day, I also would like to have a G5PB rather today.

[Snowy_River]

Let's look at Motorola's track record for advancing the G4 over the past 4 years by using the dates when Apple introduced it into a product.

Feb. 16th 2000-500 MHz with a off chip level 2 cache and 100 MHz bus
Jan. 9th 2001-733 MHz, on chip level 2 cache, 1 MB level 3 cache, 133 MHz bus
July 18th 2001-867 MHz, 2 MB level 3 cache
Jan. 28th 2002-1 GHz and SOI
Aug. 13th 2002-1.25 GHz by adding low k-dielectric to silicon wafer
Jan. 28th 2003-1.42 GHz by boosting voltage
Sept 16th 2003-1.33 GHz produced on smaller .13-micron chip making process

Discounting the introduction of the 1.25 and 1.42 GHz G4 chips, the G4 moved from 500 MHz to 1.33 MHz in 43 months.

Compare the G4s progress in % of MHz increase in 43 months to where the Pentium 4 would have to be to match it. The Pentium 4 started out at 1.5 GHz in November of 2000. Moving 43 months beyond that would take us to June of 2004 and the P4 would have to be at 3.9 GHz to match the % of MHz increases that the G4 had in that period of time. Intel has stated the Pentium 4 will reach 4 GHz in the fourth quarter. Compare that to Motorola's statement that the G4 will double in MHz about every 18 months and that means the G4 will reach 2 GHz in about July or August of this year. That quite frankly is not slow progression compared to Intel's advancing the P4.

The G4 has much more potential for use in a portable notebook computer than IBM's 970 chip. Moving the G4 to a smaller process and boosting it to 2 GHz will probably only produce an average of about 16 watts of power use. Compare that to IBM's stated 25 watts of power use for the 970 at 2 GHz. Both chips running at the same MHz, I would bet on this improved G4 beating the performance of the 970 soundly.

While I don't dispute the fact that Moto has pushed the speed of the G4 up, they haven't done as good a job pushing the processing power up. One of the main applications that I use, when the G4 first came out, was as fast or faster than the same application under Windows on the top end Intel or AMD processors. Now, if we compare how the speed boosts, that you seem to be arguing exonerate Moto, stack up against comparable Intel machines (note that neither the Intel nor the G4 are absolutely the top of the line), and how the G5 fits in too:

http://www.architosh.com/features/2003/nem-benchmark/lg-overall.gif

Gee, it looks like, despite Intel's failure to reach 3.9GHz, they are easily beating the G4. So, clock speed really doesn't tell it all. While I realize that this is a single application, it is, also, more or less a 'real world' test, not a contrived benchmark. Also, in case you were wondering, VectorWorks is not MP aware, so any boost that the dual 2GHz G5 got over the single 1.8GHz G5 above simple clockspeed was due to the system load being placed on the second processor (same with the dual vs. single PCs).

The G4 will have a on-board memory controller and will have the capability for using DDR-2 memory. Again, that chip should be arriving in July or August if the doubling of frequency in 18 months plan still holds.



The announced 1.5GHz G4 is simply a boost in frequency on the same .13-micron process size. Moving the G4 to a smaller .09-micron chip making process size will boost the topend frequency to at least 2 GHz. Don't believe that? Well, the last move to a smaller process size for the G4 got about a 33% improvement in frequency (1 GHz to 1.33 GHz). Take the upcoming topend 1.5 GHz of the .13-micron process size and multiply that times 1.33 and voila! You get a frequency of about 2 GHz, just as Motorola is predicting.

Also... with the G4 moving to a on-board memory controller there is much less need for the use of a L3 cache.

The G4 is also going to come out as a two processor chip. That was approved last year by Motorola. Which means running at 2 GHz, with two processors, the chip should perform very well and use only about 35 watts average.

Motorola had plans of improving the G4 chip architecture to enable speeds of 3 GHz+. That would probably entail moving it from 7 pipeline stages to perhaps 10. Similar to what Motorola did by moving the G4 from 4 pipeline stages to 7. The power use would still remain very low, with a much higher performance.

If this chip comes to pass, then great! I'd love to see it. However, I've read too many times when Moto has planned something and it's fallen through or been seriously delayed. How long have they been planning to incorporate RapidIO into their PPC line? Originally it was going to be part of their G5, before they discontinued that development project.

Maybe they'll get their act together. Maybe not. But, please forgive me if I don't place my trust in vaporware from a company that doesn't have the greatest track record (even if they have managed to boost clockspeeds).

[aswitcher]

thanks for the information aswitcher and phinius, one more question though, if you were to purchase the PBG4 15' super, what upgrades would you get if any... and for what would you get them :confused:

If you are going to buy a 15" I would get the following options.

I would seriously look at an extra 256 or 512 ram.

I would get Applecare.

I would get a spare battery.

I would likely get MS Office if I could get a good price. I think MS Office should be OEM and come bundled as an option and I think this will happen later this year.

I would likely get a .Mac account rolled in.

I would likely get the Apple Bluetooth keyboard and a third party BT two button+ Mouse (MX900 or other) for home use.

I would look to my accountant to figure out the best way and time to buy. For me this will be July via salary sacrifice since Australia tax regs charge now FBT on laptop purchases.

[Snowy_River]

If you are going to buy a 15" I would get the following options.

I would seriously look at an extra 256 or 512 ram.

I wouldn't stop there. I'd get at least two 512MB RAM chips, if not a couple of 1GB RAM chips. They're coming down now. At OWC you can get the 1GB chips for about $360 (as compared to $110 for 512MB chips). It really depends on what you want to do, but in general more RAM is better.

I would get Applecare.

Yes. Almost always a good idea.

I would get a spare battery.

Depending on what you want to do, this can be a very good thing. I have a 12" right now, and there are definitely times that I wish I had a spare battery. If I traveled any more than I currently do, I'd get one...

I would likely get MS Office if I could get a good price. I think MS Office should be OEM and come bundled as an option and I think this will happen later this year.

MS Office is over rated, IMO. I have a copy, but I loathe using it. What I'm excited about is that K Office is being ported to Mac OS X native form. It's already fairly functional - impressively so. When it gets done we'll have a free fully functional, open source alternative to MS Office. Now that's exciting...

I would likely get a .Mac account rolled in.

Personally, I avoid .Mac. It's over priced for someone like me. If you know a bit about taking care of your own domain, I'd recommend going somewhere like CrisisHost.com and getting your own domain. It'll cost you a lot less than .Mac, and it gives you much of the same functionality. (There are a few benefits that, for some people, make .Mac a very good deal. If you're one of them, then more power to you! http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg)

I would likely get the Apple Bluetooth keyboard and a third party BT two button+ Mouse (MX900 or other) for home use.

Do they make BT mice that don't require a separate USB BT adaptor? I hadn't heard of any yet.

Anyway, I'd certainly agree with getting a separate keyboard and pointing device (me, I prefer a trackball, but to each his own). However, personally I'm not overly excited by the idea of a wireless keyboard and mouse. I'm just not sure they're worth the extra money...

I would look to my accountant to figure out the best way and time to buy. For me this will be July via salary sacrifice since Australia tax regs charge now FBT on laptop purchases.

Best of luck!

[Phinius]

While I don't dispute the fact that Moto has pushed the speed of the G4 up, they haven't done as good a job pushing the processing power up.

The G4 is essentially in the performance class of the Pentium III processor. So why hasn't Motorola kept up with Intel's chip performance when Apple has had continually shrinking marketshare and Motorola has gotten two or three dollars from Apple's market while Intel has received eighty dollars from the Windows side? That's what you get when marketshare is overwhelming on the other side.

That does not detract from the fact that Motorola has made a lot of improvements to the G4 far beyond simply Mhz upgrades. It's just that the company has not had the financial means to come up with an entirely new chip architecture exclusively for Apple's measly desktop marketshare.

One of the main applications that I use, when the G4 first came out, was as fast or faster than the same application under Windows on the top end Intel or AMD processors.

That was before Intel came out with the Pentium 4. When the Pentium 4 first came out, Apple's sales literally plummeted and the stock price fell off a cliff like Wylie Coyote.

Now, if we compare how the speed boosts, that you seem to be arguing exonerate Moto, stack up against comparable Intel machines (note that neither the Intel nor the G4 are absolutely the top of the line), and how the G5 fits in too:

Another example of how more money brings faster improvements to processors is by comparing Itanium to the Power4 chip. When the Itanium first came out it's performance was soundly trounced by the Power4. Now, the Itanium 2 is speeding past the Power4 like a rocket. Why? It's due to Intel having very deep pockets and deciding that they could lose money at that market for ten years if necessary. IBM is simply not keeping up with the pace of changes Intel is making to Itanium. Intel has moved Itanium well in front of the Power4 on SPECint and SPECfp with the Power4 running at 1.7 GHz and Itanium at 1.5 GHz with a 6 MB onboard L3 cache. Intel will up that to 1.7 GHz and 9 MB of L3 cache in the next few months, while IBM will move to the dual-core Power5. In 2005 Itanium will also have a dual core with 24 MB of L3 cache and in 2006 there will be multiple cores on one chip. IBM is simple running as fast as they can, but they seem to be on a treadmill not making much headway against Itanium.

Gee, it looks like, despite Intel's failure to reach 3.9GHz, they are easily beating the G4.

The Pentium 4 has beaten the G4 from just about the beginning. That's again mainly due to Intel being able to design a chip specifically for one market, the desktop. Motorola could not do that and expect to make money at it, because nobody but Apple with their shrinking marketshare would buy it.

As for IBM being able to make a processor just for Apple's desktop market...we'll they don't have the wherewithall to do that either. The 970 is simply a cutdown version of the Power4 with Altivac tacked on.

So, clock speed really doesn't tell it all. While I realize that this is a single application, it is, also, more or less a 'real world' test, not a contrived benchmark. Also, in case you were wondering, VectorWorks is not MP aware, so any boost that the dual 2GHz G5 got over the single 1.8GHz G5 above simple clockspeed was due to the system load being placed on the second processor (same with the dual vs. single PCs).

The G4 doesn't have to be as fast as the topend Pentium chips, that's what the G5 is for. With some changes to the I/O of the G4 and a move to a smaller process size, the G4 should be quite competitive with the upcoming Pentium-M Banias chip. Or do you seriously believe that the G5 can cover the entire desktop and notebook market for Apple? If there is another IBM chip design for Apple's notebook market, then where is it? People were speculating that IBM would take over with a update to the G3 and Apple would throw Motorola out. Well, that didn't happen, now did it. Apple will use the G4 for some time to come and in order for that to happen the G4 has to get some updates. Those updates are on the way and a Apple spokesperson said as much recently.

If this chip comes to pass, then great! I'd love to see it. However, I've read too many times when Moto has planned something and it's fallen through or been seriously delayed. How long have they been planning to incorporate RapidIO into their PPC line? Originally it was going to be part of their G5, before they discontinued that development project.

RapidIO was to be incorporated into a replacement for the G4 according to Motorola's 2001 PowerPC roadmap, which is still on the companys website. Motorola ran into financial difficulties that squashed those plans. However, you must understand that a replacement for the G4 was still going to be designed also for the embedded market and not for the desktop only. So, it would still have had performance compromises for the desktop computer market.

The G4 can still be a competitive chip in the portable market with some design changes that Motorola seems to have given the green light to. The Pentium-M is not exactly a performance demon running at a top speed of 1.7 GHz. The G4 has the potential to compete against it in performance versus watts used.

You must also understand that a high performance monolith processor is just one of many ways to get chip speed. Another way is to take a much lower performing processor and stick two or more of them on one chip or stick thousands of them in boxes to make a super computer, as IBM is going to do with the 500 MHz PowerPC processors that will be used in the Blue Gene project. Intel is also planning on making Itanium chips using several lower performing, multiple processors in 2006. Why? Because lower performing processors are much more efficient than high frequency mono processors such as the Pentium 4. Intel is probably coming to the stark realization of how inefficient the Prescott version of the Pentium 4 is after boosting it to 31 pipeline stages from 20.

Maybe they'll get their act together. Maybe not. But, please forgive me if I don't place my trust in vaporware from a company that doesn't have the greatest track record (even if they have managed to boost clockspeeds).

All the comparisons are made with what is being done on the Wintel side. Conveniently ignoring that the X86 side has over 95% of the market and buckets full of money to throw at it. Take a look at the history of the Power4s performance in comparison to Itanium. You will see the same thing happening there. Intel is simply improving Itaniums performance at a much greater pace than IBM can with the Power series of chips. Making a 970 spinoff of the Power4 will help IBM muster enough funds to keep competiting against Itanium for awhile, but as a IBM engineer commented on a chip forum a few months back 'how much longer can IBM stay ahead with Intel sinking so much money into it?'

[Rhyno]

say a new PB is released tomorrow (this is not a rumour BTW) when does it appear in shops and stuff and how long does it take for it to become available in Australia? I'll be buying the new PB when it gets updated (2, 3 years?pfft) but i'm kinda in a hurry. so yeah, when its updated do i get it the next day or a month later?

[Snowy_River]

The G4 ...

You know, Phinius, I don't really want to get into it with you. You're very good at quoting just the numbers that back up your perspective. Also, you seem to have quite the inside track on what all of the chip makers are doing in the future, except, perhaps, for IBM. Again, if your information is right about the upcoming processors from Moto, great. But to me it's still vaporware.

As to your argument about the performance comparison between Macs and PCs, why are Macs at all comparable with PCs then? Macs have been a minor marketshare player for on the order of 20 years. That's millennia in computer time. Why hasn't all the money that Intel has sunk into their processors over all those years put a massive performance gap between their processors and any of their competitors (AMD, IBM, Moto)? While I understand your argument, I think there has to be a flaw in it. Can you quote the dollar figures that Intel spends on R&D vs. what IBM spends? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Big Blue actually spent more on silicon R&D than Intel did, but I may be mistake. (I was unable to locate the article with a quick Google search).

So, suffice it to say that I remain unconvinced. But I seriously doubt there's anything you could say that would convince me. Please don't quote more baseless (comparing GHz?) performance numbers to me, or anymore clearly unverifiable future history of different processor lines. Those won't do a thing to sway me one way or the other, and more than likely will just irritate me.

If you're so convinced that PCs will always rule the day with more power, etc., why are you in the Mac camp? Or are you a PC user just coming by to harass us? http://www.ghwphoto.com/smilies/wink.jpg


P.S. The early VectorWorks benchmarks that I was referring to were between the early G4s and the early P4s. At that stage, the G4 was on a par with the P4...

[aswitcher]

say a new PB is released tomorrow (this is not a rumour BTW) when does it appear in shops and stuff and how long does it take for it to become available in Australia? I'll be buying the new PB when it gets updated (2, 3 years?pfft) but i'm kinda in a hurry. so yeah, when its updated do i get it the next day or a month later?

Anywhere from a few weeks to a few months... :(

[SiliconAddict]

So in conclusion, you're not hot ***** because of you have a mac and it should not be representative of what you've got in your wallet, but instead what's up in your head.

Thanks tabascoishot. You have just made my day :cool:

[gadg]

aswitcher said:
I would get AppleCare
snowy_river replied:
Yes. Almost always a good idea.

Why is this? I'm a long time Dell/Windows user, looking to switch to a Powerbook. Dell service has always worked very well for me. I've had a run-in with AppleCare with a friends' iBook. That parcticular incident was not covered (coke over the keyboard), which is fine, I understand that. I informed about AppleCare coverage and really, they cover what imho are warranty type things. Why would I pay extra for this?

Especially with the mandatory 2 year warranty BY LAW (european union) and the fact that I'm buying it from a local Apple store (not owned by Apple, but they only sell Apple), I don't see what good AppleCare does for me.

But perhaps I'm missing something?

[chanoc]

Meanwhile, the company is also said to be readying another slight revision to its consumer iBook laptops. According to an anonymous report, the new units will include a low end 933 Mhz model for $999 and a high end 1.25 Ghz configuration for $1499. Two additional midrange configurations were listed, though it should be noted that all configurations are currently unconfirmed.

*Ahem* Being the skeptic I am, nothing is real until I can feel the power of a consumer ibook G4 in my hands with a 1.25GHz chip, faster hard drive (larger would be nice), and 64MB of VRAM. Well, currently I am computerless using a PeeCee at the library, and when I am rich the Net cafe on their only Linux PC. Going to work in fisheries in a remote area of Alaska this summer, and when I return it will be interesting to see what Apple's revisions are to the portable lineup.

[Bhennies]

I remember reading that Apple was considering putting dual g4 proc. if a g5 powerbook was too difficult. Anyone else hear that?

[sub_version]

A while back, someone pointed out that the PentiumM only goes to ~1.7GHz.

You know, for Apple fans, we sure played the GHz game real fast, didn't we?

The performance of a PentiumM at 1.7GHz is roughly equivalent to a 2.8GHz Pentium4-Mobile. They are *very* different cores.

[Snowy_River]

A while back, someone pointed out that the PentiumM only goes to ~1.7GHz.

You know, for Apple fans, we sure played the GHz game real fast, didn't we?

The performance of a PentiumM at 1.7GHz is roughly equivalent to a 2.8GHz Pentium4-Mobile. They are *very* different cores.

I thought about pointing that out when someone tried to argue that a P-M at 1.7GHz could be matched by a 1.25GHz G4. Based on the performance numbers I've seen, it would take at least a 1.4 if not a 1.5-1.7GHz G4 to match a P-M at 1.7GHz.

Food for thought...

[jade]

I thought about pointing that out when someone tried to argue that a P-M at 1.7GHz could be matched by a 1.25GHz G4. Based on the performance numbers I've seen, it would take at least a 1.4 if not a 1.5-1.7GHz G4 to match a P-M at 1.7GHz.

Food for thought...

Absolutely. CLock for clock the g4s match up with the p4m's. To see a competitive or superior speed for the powerbooks and centrino notebooks, the clock speed would need to be equal of higher on the powerboooks. No more times 2 to compare apple processors to PC notebook chips.

[Bhennies]

Absolutely. CLock for clock the g4s match up with the p4m's. To see a competitive or superior speed for the powerbooks and centrino notebooks, the clock speed would need to be equal of higher on the powerboooks. No more times 2 to compare apple processors to PC notebook chips.where do you guys find all this info?

[MacQuest]

The G4...

PHINIUS:
I read Snowy_River's response to your post and I didn't even bother reading yours because I realized that you're just an Intel apologist hanging on for dear life.

Bottom Line: Intel has been kicked out of all 3 major game consoles by AIM's [Apple/IBM/Motorola] superior PowerPC RISC technology which is rapidly exposing Intels antiquated x86 architecture for what it is, a prehistoric dead duck shot through IBM's crosshairs.

Apple will undoubtedly reap rewards from being one of the three founders of the PowerPC RISC architecture.

Intel's failure's [Prescott and their newly re-introduced Itanium - if at first you don't succeed, you must be using Wintel] recently caused them to approach IBM and request licensing for IBM's SOI manufacturing technology. IBM allows AMD to utilize this fabrication process but told Intel that they would have to pay half a million dollars for licensing and $45 per processor.

Yes, it's called bleeding the "competition"...not that Intel is any kind of competition for Big Blue/AMD anymore. :D

BTW, IBM and AMD partnered in January of '03 to take out Intel on their own crappy x86 platform. Fortunately, the PowerPC RISC architecture has made much greater advances along with AMD putting Intel to shame.

Intel Inside = Idiot Outside.

[GrannySmith_G5]

apple store being updated rumor freaks. 8 AM.

[PowerMacMan]

apple store being updated rumor freaks. 8 AM.

To bad I start school in 5 minutes, won't be able to see what's up till 3 o'clock pm today :mad: Woops, gotta go to band...

[denm316]

C'Mon bumped up G4 PowerBooks, I cant wait to get my hands on a 12inch PB.

[aswitcher]

C'Mon bumped up G4 PowerBooks, I cant wait to get my hands on a 12inch PB.

...maybe that eMac rumor is coming true

[Tomaz]

...maybe that eMac rumor is coming true

:D :D :D :D :D :D

And you wrote that as a joke...
Looks like you have a special gift, how about a prediction for PBs ?

[iAtom]

So does this mean no PowerBook updates today? Or do they sometimes update things at different times? That 1.25 GHz eMac is really tempting right now!

[aswitcher]

:D :D :D :D :D :D

And you wrote that as a joke...
Looks like you have a special gift, how about a prediction for PBs ?

No, not a joke, just going on what another poster had promised would appear today...he was right. new eMacs are cheaper and better

[Zaty]

So does this mean no PowerBook updates today? Or do they sometimes update things at different times? That 1.25 GHz eMac is really tempting right now!

No other updates today. I don't think the release the new eMac, then wait another hour or two to release new PBs.

[Tomaz]

No, not a joke, just going on what another poster had promised would appear today...he was right. new eMacs are cheaper and better

So the other guy has the gift...we shall listen to his predictions carefully from now on! :)

[SwitchHitter]

HEY,

I just visited the Specials/Refurbs section of apple.com - there are NO PowerBooks of any sort available now (earlier this am, there was a 17" for 2199, but now nothing.....

Seems a few of the other mac areas are all empty as well....

Could this mean PB updates tomorrow?....

Could this mean PB updates next Tuesday?.....

Could this mean PB updates the next Tuesday?....

Could this mean they are just restocking the Refurbs?.....

Or (and MOST LIKELY)...

Could this mean nothing.... :(

[Tomaz]

Could this mean nothing.... :(

Yep!

[cbatt]

I know we're all drooling over the G5s (PPC 970/970fx), but it really seems to be a power-monger. Obviously unsuitable for portables with any real portability. However, the PPC 750vx has been finalized by IBM.

Apparently it runs a lot faster and somewhat cooler than the current moto G4s that are used in the PBs and iBs. No, it's deffinately not a G5 (classified as what is currently running in the desktops), but it sounds like a decent portable replacement to me.

A possible marketing strategy would be to create a "G5-Mobile", much like there is a "PentiumM" over at Intel. The PC world accepts that the mobile machines don't use the same processors as their desktop counterparts (without sacrificing mobility), can the Apple world accept the same?

[DrT V.01]

I have just noticed this link on the apple web site, which says "...the University of Cincinnati’s College of Design, Art, Architecture, and Planning is arming each of its students with individual PowerBook G5 computers,...."

http://www.apple.com/education/hed/academia/creative/architecture.html

A typo, or is the G5 powerbook closer than we think?

[Bhennies]

I have just noticed this link on the apple web site, which says "...the University of Cincinnati’s College of Design, Art, Architecture, and Planning is arming each of its students with individual PowerBook G5 computers,...."

http://www.apple.com/education/hed/academia/creative/architecture.html

A typo, or is the G5 powerbook closer than we think?typo.

[LaMerVipere]

I have just noticed this link on the apple web site, which says "...the University of Cincinnati’s College of Design, Art, Architecture, and Planning is arming each of its students with individual PowerBook G5 computers,...."

http://www.apple.com/education/hed/academia/creative/architecture.html

A typo, or is the G5 powerbook closer than we think?

Would LOVE it if that wasn't a typo! :eek:

[JFreak]

it can also be "wishful thinking"...

[patriotn11]

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=425

Wednesday, April 14, 2004
Apple to refresh PowerBooks, iBooks next week (Updated
Advertisement

In all, the company is expected to debut 8 new laptop configurations. Two new 12-inch PowerBooks will reportedly carry model numbers 'M9183LL/A' and 'M9184LL/A', while revised 15-inch models are being referenced by model numbers 'M9422LL/A' and 'M9421LL/A.' A single high-end 17-inch PowerBook G4 configuration is referenced by sources as 'M9462LL/A.'

In addition, Apple will also refresh its fast selling iBook product line. Two new 14-inch configurations are listed by sources as 'M9418LL/A' and 'M9419LL/A.' Meanwhile, a single 12-inch configuration is said to carry model number 'M9426LL/A.'

According to sources, Apple is expected to announce the new portables simultaneously next week All models are said to feature faster G4 processors and improved graphics capabilities.
:D :D :D
Update
In reference to the previously published announcement date, sources have noted that while certain parties may be able to order the new portables on Monday the 19th, Apple may not announce the products officially until the following day (Tuesday the 20th :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[aswitcher]

Wednesday, April 14, 2004
Apple to refresh PowerBooks, iBooks next week (Updated
Advertisement

Update
In reference to the previously published announcement date, sources have noted that while certain parties may be able to order the new portables on [COLOR=Red]Monday the 19th, Apple may not announce the products officially until the following day (Tuesday the 20th :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

So those at the broadcast thing get first pick.

Damn shame the update didn't say anything about G5s...

[patriotn11]

Hey aswitcher,

I have a burning sensation in my wallet and I'm going through my midlife crisis, some go out and buy a sports car! :cool:

Well I want to buy a POWERBOOK, It will be a first time ever that I will use a Mac, so I figured I needed the PB loaded, power windows, dorrs, a/c/ stereo, the works.

Kinda like when I bought my 4x4 chevy Z-71, did I need it, no!, I live in the city, I wanted braggin rights :D


My goal in life is to write childerans books and I feel the MAC/PB will be a champ.

15" or 17" that's the question, and should I get Office Mac since I have office for the PC :confused:

Thanks for any info, aswitcher :)

[aswitcher]

Hey aswitcher,

Well I want to buy a POWERBOOK, It will be a first time ever that I will use a Mac, so I figured I needed the PB loaded, power windows, dorrs, a/c/ stereo, the works.


Well I've used macs a bit, and read plenty about them, but not owned one.

A PB with everything aint going to be cheap. ;)


My goal in life is to write childerans books and I feel the MAC/PB will be a champ.

15" or 17" that's the question, and should I get Office Mac since I have office for the PC :confused:

Thanks for any info, aswitcher :)

Ok, MS Office X is getting a serious revamp next month. I think (better check this) if you buy the current version ist $20 or something to upgrade. Or wait and buy it.

As to whether you need it...well its a lot of money for a word processor. If your a switcher though you'll feel much more comfortable using something you know that works with other machines you and others have.

You could buy Apple's rather dated Appleworks for a lot less and I imagine write documents/novels fine, but Office is the real deal. If you use spreadsheets etc the Office becomes more tempting. Check out Appleworks first on Apple's site.

I sorta hope that Apple OEM Office when it comes out with their machines bringing the price down the PC prices... but if a G5 (unlikely methinks) comes out next week then I will probably pony up the cash (or mail order from the USA which is a low cheaper).

Additonal
15 vs 17. Big $ diff. + you can screen span to any other monirot you might have, making the 17 less interesting due to cost and portability (3kg and big).

[kbonnel]

As for office, if you only need work/excel/powerpoint, get the student/teacher version for 129 from maczone. You can then download the coupon to get office 2004 for free (other than the 10 dollar shipping cost). I really love my PB15 SuperDrive, and I did struggle with the "expensive word processor and cd player :) ), but I have so much fun doing it, that it is worth it too me.

Samuel L Bronkowitz