Small Form Factor(SFF) - return the Cube?

[cyberddot]

As with many searching for the right multi-tool to do jobs at home, provide some play-time as well as take care of distance school work, I've wandered away from the Apple/Mac rumor sites to find out what's happening on the other side of the PC tracks. I hadn't realized how much work had been done over the past several years in developing the PC - SFF systems that provide almost ALL that I (and many others) would like to see in a Mac platform! (Shuttle systems look GREAT but for the processor and OS)

I hadn't yet seen the light in the Days Of The Cube, so didn't get to experience the adaptability inherent to the little beauties. Why did Apple nix this product? I love my v2.2 iMac, but she's starting to lag behind in some performance areas. Why is there nothing in between the new iMac and the G5 to provide a consumer an upgradable choice? Any thoughts or recent rumors on the likelihood of Apple moving back in a Cube-like direction? Is there no profit in providing a sub-Pro upgradable Mac?

dot

[vollspacken]

ah, one of those "bring back da Cube..!"-threads...

some people will immediately start flaming, but I too think that Apple should release something along those lines. they should have done this long time ago with a speedy G3...

won't happen I suppose, since Apple does not even seem able to get their ***** together in order to update their iMac and PowerMac lines...

vSpacken

[Ajmbc]

I guess that the reason that there is not another cube is that Apple hasn't gotten around to it.

They halted the cube because of various problems (such as the power button not working) and because they weren't selling that well.

I would love to see another cube.

-ajmbc

[7on]

This summer the PC community is looking to standardize the small-form factor. I believe it's called BTX and will remove all legacy connectors.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/BTX_Spec_1_0.pdf

[Dont Hurt Me]

Number one reason is Apple is ran by a Bunch of arrogant egomaniacs that are out of touch with the consumer and as such the sales have declined,declined, and declined even after opening new stores. Get rid of Jobs and find someone from the PC world that knows whats going on and who wants to sell to consumers not just a bunch of Pro's. Consumers outnumber pros 100 to one but who does Steve go after? and hence 1 % marketshare. maybe thats the target.

[~Shard~]

I've proposed this wacky idea before, but thought I'd bring it up here again. What if the G5 iMac is indeed the machine everyone is hoping, with upgraded hardware, some upgradability, etc. - somewhat along the lines of the current 1.6 GHz G5? With PowerMac updates soon(?), possibly bumping up the line to 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 (or whatever, give or take), this would possibly isolate and differentiate the product lines enough between the iMac and the PowerMac.

But now, here's the "wild" part - what if, because of all of this re-engineering on the iMac to make it a G5, upgrading the hardware, redesigning the mobo from scratch, including more expensive parts in general (relative to what the iMac has now at least), the iMac no longer remains at its current price point. This would make sense I think, as Apple can't magically offer a brand new system for the same price as a "relatively" outdated G4 system - this is simple logic as I see it. So now, as a result, we see the eMac becoming the sole low-end machine in the Apple product line, the PowerMac remaining as the high-end machine, but now the iMac becomes a more expensive, yet mid-level machine, possibly taking on the role of a digital hub - but as a result, starting at $2500, (just to throw a number out there)?

Once again, I'm not saying this is liekly by any means, just some crazy speculation on my part! :cool:

[~Shard~]

Oh, and as an addition to my previous post, I'll agree that there is a significant gap right now between the iMacs and the PowerMacs, but what can you do other than be patient and wait for updates? Well, the other option would be to buy a PC I suppose... The fact is that Apple will release the G5 iMacs, the G5 PowerBooks, and the PowerMac updates, when they're ready to be released - and not a day sooner. If this is unacceptable for people, they can buy a PC, which I have no problems with if that's your thing.

I'd love to see updates right away too, as they seem long overdue, but for now I'll be happy with my 17" 1.25 GHz G4 iMac - the longer the G5 iMacs take to come out, the longer my machine will still be the top of the iMac line! ;) But seriously, even when the new iMacs come out, I won't be too envious of them. Although having a G5 would be nice, my current iMac will do everything I need it to, and more, for the next 2-3 years - which is when I'll be picking myself up a nice new G6! :cool: (Oh, and I realize not everyone is in the same boat as me, which is fair enough)

[ravenvii]

If you want a good looking SFF case that can have two optical drives, check out the Soltek Qbic series. I'm considering buying it and transplanting my current rig over to it.

And BTX isn't the standardized SFF, it's actually just a successor to ATX, with components of the motherboard moved around to improve heat dissipation and some other improvements.

[thatwendigo]

Rant off the port bow, Captain!

Aye... Bring me harpoon, lad.

Number one reason is Apple is ran by a Bunch of arrogant egomaniacs that are out of touch with the consumer and as such the sales have declined,declined, and declined even after opening new stores.

Overall sales are not down significantly, but sales are down when compared to the the continuously expanding PC market. Apple's installed base is still the largest single OEM, and their sales are higher than many of the PC manufacturers when you consider them separately. If you want to be ridiculous and claim all PC sales together, with the sum of some hundreds or thousands of companies competing with Apple, then there's some serious issue. However, the issue is with your lack of scale in your thought, not the sales themselves.

Get rid of Jobs and find someone from the PC world that knows whats going on and who wants to sell to consumers not just a bunch of Pro's.

:rolleyes:

Right... Someone from the PC world, where all but one of the OEMs are hemhorraging money, and the only one that's turning a profit does it on sheer volume and would crush Apple in their low-price market because of established supply lines and marketing hype.

Do you say these things after thinking about them, or just blurt them out when they occur to you?

Consumers outnumber pros 100 to one but who does Steve go after? and hence 1 % marketshare. maybe thats the target.

Assume that this is the case, for a moment. I'll play nice and grant for a moment that there could be 100 consumers for every professional user (unlikely, but we'll play that game).

For ten sales to professional users, calling the costs $50 per unit:
1000 x $1,000 = $100,000 ; $100,000 - 50,000 = $50,000
10 X $5,000 = $50,000 ; $50,0000 - $500 = $45,500 and less logistical issues

Sales to professionals tend to be far more profitable, and $5,000 for a serious workstation is peanuts.

[thatwendigo]

Any thoughts or recent rumors on the likelihood of Apple moving back in a Cube-like direction? Is there no profit in providing a sub-Pro upgradable Mac?

I find it unlikely, for reasons of economy and costs in the new architecture. The G5 is still a massively new system, and the parts just aren't cheap enough to go much below the pro line with them. Everyone who complains about there not being a sub-Pro, upgradeable system is ignoring the single processor low-end tower, which is approximately $1,600-1,700 when configured properly.

As things stand, I think there will eventually be a G5 iMac or iMac replacement, but I doubt it will be nearly cheap enough to shut people like DHM up, and I doubt that it would be expandable. Shuttle cases are interesting, but there's very little incentive in them for a company like Apple.

[LethalWolfe]

Number one reason is Apple is ran by a Bunch of arrogant egomaniacs that are out of touch with the consumer and as such the sales have declined,declined, and declined even after opening new stores. Get rid of Jobs and find someone from the PC world that knows whats going on and who wants to sell to consumers not just a bunch of Pro's. Consumers outnumber pros 100 to one but who does Steve go after? and hence 1 % marketshare. maybe thats the target.


I've got to echo thewendigo's comments. Currently (and for the past year if not more) Apple and Dell have been the only companies in their field to turn a profit. So which captin of a sinking ship from the PC world do want to bring over? Dell is making money because of the sheer volume they deal with and their excellent inventory control. All the other big PC makers are in serious ***** because they tried to out-Dell Dell and they lost, big time. Just look at Gateway. Apple needs to play to its strengths not try to compete in areas where it is obviously weaker. You don't fight fire w/fire when you have a Zippo and the other guy has a flame thrower.


Lethal

[vollspacken]

[QUOTE=~Shard~]The iMac no longer remains at its current price point. This would make sense I think, as Apple can't magically offer a brand new system for the same price as a "relatively" outdated G4 system - this is simple logic as I see it. So now, as a result, we see the eMac becoming the sole low-end machine in the Apple product line, the PowerMac remaining as the high-end machine, but now the iMac becomes a more expensive, yet mid-level machine, possibly taking on the role of a digital hub - but as a result, starting at $2500, (just to throw a number out there)?[/QUOTE

yeah right, just kill your consumer line..!

vSpacken

[bennetsaysargh]

i want a cube so bad,. maybe cut the head off of the iMac, because the way i see it is the iMac as pro-sumer. eMac and iBook are consumer, and he powers are obviously pro. the imac is that in-between product that the cube would be.

[aswitcher]

But now, here's the "wild" part - what if, because of all of this re-engineering on the iMac to make it a G5, upgrading the hardware, redesigning the mobo from scratch, including more expensive parts in general (relative to what the iMac has now at least), the iMac no longer remains at its current price point. This would make sense I think, as Apple can't magically offer a brand new system for the same price as a "relatively" outdated G4 system - this is simple logic as I see it. So now, as a result, we see the eMac becoming the sole low-end machine in the Apple product line, the PowerMac remaining as the high-end machine, but now the iMac becomes a more expensive, yet mid-level machine, possibly taking on the role of a digital hub - but as a result, starting at $2500, (just to throw a number out there)?

Once again, I'm not saying this is liekly by any means, just some crazy speculation on my part! :cool:

Yeah, I am not so keen for them to lose a cheap low end lcd machine.

I would argue that they could do a cube as the base end of the powermac line (you dont need all that space in a single processor machine) to beef up the middle rather than raise the cost of the lcd entry models. Sure I think the imac could do with a serious face lift and perhaps a few more options, but not at the cost of the current price points.

I think a G5 PowerMac "mini" (ie more cubish) would be a good seller...

[Dont Hurt Me]

I've got to echo thewendigo's comments. Currently (and for the past year if not more) Apple and Dell have been the only companies in their field to turn a profit. So which captin of a sinking ship from the PC world do want to bring over? Dell is making money because of the sheer volume they deal with and their excellent inventory control. All the other big PC makers are in serious ***** because they tried to out-Dell Dell and they lost, big time. Just look at Gateway. Apple needs to play to its strengths not try to compete in areas where it is obviously weaker. You don't fight fire w/fire when you have a Zippo and the other guy has a flame thrower.


LethalAlienware is not hurting how about that boss and how the heck can any of you mac lovers sit there and tell me 1% of the market is just fine. What iam saying is after Imac crt saved their corporate behinds they forgot about all those consumers. Imac Crt was a tick behind powermac, emac/Imac lcd are a joke and not even close. are you guys & girls going to stand up when it hits near 0%???? Apple needed a new Imac last year. powermac sales though declined are matching Imac & Emac together and thats not good when you have billions of consumers. we have billions of consumers and apple is missing the mark by almost 100% and thats good?
Thatwendigo ill tell you again i dont want a cheap bunch of junk Imac but i do demand(with my dollars) a Imac G5 with good video(CARD) and will pay up to $2000 if it comes with a 17" but a G4 dont cut it.
Marketshare will kill Apple unless it gets turned around. Not one product has stopped this migration of new computer buyers. The money in the bank is from all those millions of Imac crt buyers.

[aswitcher]

SNIP Apple needed a new Imac last year. powermac sales though declined are matching Imac & Emac together and thats not good when you have billions of consumers. we have billions of consumers and apple is missing the mark by almost 100% and thats good?
Thatwendigo ill tell you again i dont want a cheap bunch of junk Imac but i do demand(with my dollars) a Imac G5 with good video(CARD) and will pay up to $2000 if it comes with a 17" but a G4 dont cut it.
Marketshare will kill Apple unless it gets turned around. Not one product has stopped this migration of new computer buyers. The money in the bank is from all those millions of Imac crt buyers.

I agree, Apple did need a new iMac last year and because they haven't addressed this they are suffering from piss poor sales in this area from what we have seen of the last six quaters figures.

Sooner it comes out the better.

But, I don't think its going to look the same as the current model. To accomodate a G5, more ram etc its going to have a new form factor, and given its Apple this is again likely to be something new with market appeal.

I don't like the delays that a new form factor iMac are having but if completly retooling (not just chucking some new bits in a standard box) are taking time, plus marketing campaign preparations etc etc to capitalize of the iPod/mini iPod success, then it could well be worth the wait...

I suspect Steve's ego has also been in a factor since I think he will want to reveal it in person at WWDC...

[Dont Hurt Me]

I agree, Apple did need a new iMac last year and because they haven't addressed this they are suffering from piss poor sales in this area from what we have seen of the last six quaters figures.

Sooner it comes out the better.

But, I don't think its going to look the same as the current model. To accomodate a G5, more ram etc its going to have a new form factor, and given its Apple this is again likely to be something new with market appeal.

I don't like the delays that a new form factor iMac are having but if completly retooling (not just chucking some new bits in a standard box) are taking time, plus marketing campaign preparations etc etc to capitalize of the iPod/mini iPod success, then it could well be worth the wait...

I suspect Steve's ego has also been in a factor since I think he will want to reveal it in person at WWDC...could be and i guess thats why i havent ordered alienware(yet) but man am i close. so they introduce a new machine at wwdc and then ship it in sept? they have got to get their corporate butt together when it comes to new products and intro's. being a long time mac user its hard to jump ship and the wife tells me everyday to order that Aurora. most consumers wouldnt put up with Apples crappy advancement they would just go out and shop and take home the PC.

[thatwendigo]

Alienware is not hurting how about that boss

Alienware is a niche company that sells machines that are far more expensive than the components themselves are. In fact, as far as margins go, they're a lot like Apple, except they target the gullible people who are impressed by shiny plastic even more than Apple does.

Also, if the gaming market goes bust in the near future, as some analysts are predicting, that kills Alienware, but not Apple.

and how the heck can any of you mac lovers sit there and tell me 1% of the market is just fine.

I never said it's ideal, just that it's the situation as it stands, and not the horrible emergency that you seem to think it is. Like others have pointed out, BMW has less than 2% of the car market, but you don't see people saying that they're going out of business.

What iam saying is after Imac crt saved their corporate behinds they forgot about all those consumers. Imac Crt was a tick behind powermac, emac/Imac lcd are a joke and not even close. are you guys & girls going to stand up when it hits near 0%????

The iMac CRT was a big seller, but hardly the savior of Apple. Oh, and it's more than a little hypocritical of you to be calling for the ouster of Steve Jobs, since he was a big part of the whole iMac phenomenon... So the guy saved Apple while he was crashing it, did he? :rolleyes:

Apple needed a new Imac last year. powermac sales though declined are matching Imac & Emac together and thats not good when you have billions of consumers. we have billions of consumers and apple is missing the mark by almost 100% and thats good?

Billions of consumers? Billions? Hardly.

I might be willing to accept that there are 500 million people in the world who could afford a truly modern computer. You seem to be expressing the same lack of basic economics that you show off in other places, since roughly two to three fifths of the wealth of the world is in America, while only about 300 million people live here. According to the US Census Beureau (http://www.census.gov/), the United States population is 292,943,042, out of a total world population of 6,359,514,472. That's only 4.6% of the world possessing some 40-60% of the wealth. Let's say that there's only a billion dollars to go around, all over the world. In other words, 95.4% of the world is splitting up about the same amount of money as our 4.6% are.

There are not billions of consumers. There are, however, billions of subsistence and poverty line dwellers.

Thatwendigo ill tell you again i dont want a cheap bunch of junk Imac but i do demand(with my dollars) a Imac G5 with good video(CARD) and will pay up to $2000 if it comes with a 17" but a G4 dont cut it.

Well, your demands aren't being fulfilled, and I don't see them being done to your satisfaction, short of some major revolution. I know that you don't want a cheap, junk iMac, but that's what you'll get if you try to cheapen the hardware too much. Apple makes margins that it needs to survive and turn a profit, while paying for one of the largest R&D departments in any OEM on the market. Short of a major revolution in the way that suppliers treat the mac market, something which I doubt even Apple could do much about, we're not goingt to see any major price drops.

Marketshare will kill Apple unless it gets turned around. Not one product has stopped this migration of new computer buyers. The money in the bank is from all those millions of Imac crt buyers.

:rolleyes:

Right... The money has nothing to do with the 100,000 G5 preorders, the consistent sales that have started falling off in the last two quarters as rumors grow more feverish and FUD-trolls like you yak it up. It doesn't have anything to do with the incredible success of the iPod, the continuing sales of the PowerBooks, or all the other computers Apple has sold since the CRTs were EOLed.

Mmmhmm.

could be and i guess thats why i havent ordered alienware(yet) but man am i close.

You haven't ordered it because you'd have to learn something new to complain about. Instead of it being Apple, you'd have to learn what was making your machine crash, how to fix the hardware incompatibilites and driver issues, the virsues that you'll inevitably get (because my opinion of your knowledge of computers isn't very high at this point), and generally make a stink of the whole thing.

You're a chronic yakker. If you don't have something to whine about, you'd have to stop making posts that said the same thing, over and over again, so that your post count would keep pumping up.

Christ, I'd be a Demi-God by now if I did the same thing you do.

most consumers wouldnt put up with Apples crappy advancement they would just go out and shop and take home the PC.

Most consumers buy Fords and Chevys, unhealthy food that they believe is good for them, don't pay attention to how a little outlay could save them trouble later, and live off of debt spending. That doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

As previously stated, numbers only mean that a larger amount of people accept something, not that they're right or that their way is better. There are more roaches than people, after all.

[aswitcher]

could be and i guess thats why i havent ordered alienware(yet) but man am i close. so they introduce a new machine at wwdc and then ship it in sept?

One bright side to the delays is the greater likelihood that newly announced machines will be shipping immediately. I think a revamped G5 iMac shipping immediately is pretty likely, especially if they have put a music spin on it with high quality speakers as standard etc

[Koodauw]

Back to the cube... I really wish I could get my hands on a cube as well. I would really like to have one to hook up to my home entertainment center. ( OK so its really a 13'' tv, receiver, and two speakers but I digress.) I hope Apple does return to that form factor, even as an iMac line. I would get one, as I missed out on the other cube revolution. Even a speedy G3 that I could use for my entertainment center would be a dream come true. I don't see it happening though. I agree that R&D costs would make this tough to do. I can hope though.

[ingenious]

ah, one of those "bring back da Cube..!"-threads...

some people will immediately start flaming, but I too think that Apple should release something along those lines. they should have done this long time ago with a speedy G3...

won't happen I suppose, since Apple does not even seem able to get their ***** together in order to update their iMac and PowerMac lines...

vSpacken

the iBox looks cool! http://www.2khappyware.com/ibox/ i want one, i want one!

[Mav451]

Hmm, i suppose a transplant could be possible, but there's a reason i don't see this happening.

The iMac boards may not even fit the SFF enclosure The iMac logic board width/shape may create some problems. Even then, PC-side SFF's can house powerhouse gaming systems (Athlon 64 / 800fsb P4C's or P4EE's)...the G4's aren't quite at that point yet.

The reasoning behind SFF is power in a small size...so i gues we are still waiting for the G5 in iMac size *_*

[LethalWolfe]

Alienware is not hurting how about that boss and how the heck can any of you mac lovers sit there and tell me 1% of the market is just fine. What iam saying is after Imac crt saved their corporate behinds they forgot about all those consumers. Imac Crt was a tick behind powermac, emac/Imac lcd are a joke and not even close. are you guys & girls going to stand up when it hits near 0%???? Apple needed a new Imac last year. powermac sales though declined are matching Imac & Emac together and thats not good when you have billions of consumers. we have billions of consumers and apple is missing the mark by almost 100% and thats good?
Thatwendigo ill tell you again i dont want a cheap bunch of junk Imac but i do demand(with my dollars) a Imac G5 with good video(CARD) and will pay up to $2000 if it comes with a 17" but a G4 dont cut it.
Marketshare will kill Apple unless it gets turned around. Not one product has stopped this migration of new computer buyers. The money in the bank is from all those millions of Imac crt buyers.


Of the major computer companies, Apple, Dell, Gateway, HP, Sony, Toshiba, etc., only Apple and Dell are turing have been turning a profit. It's funny that you blast Apple for its low market share but threaten to get an Alienware PC even though, at absolute *best*, Alienware has the same market share that Apple does. Where is the logic in that? And instead of comparing Apple to everything-not-Apple why don't you compare Apple to other business on a one-on-one basis? It's not excatly accurate to compare Apple to the combined efforts of a dozen or more other companies. Market share isn't the end all, be all statistic. You can have a large market share but still be in dire financial straights. At this point in time I'd feel much more secure buying a new Mac than a new Gateway.

Is Apple perfect? No. Do the iMacs need a serious update? Yes. I think the problem is in the exicution of their business model and not their business model itself.


Lethal

[Dont Hurt Me]

Please that wendigo lets not talk about companies who sells componets for more then they are worth. Apple has done that for years and even today. They make everyone else look like a best buy. also lets keep your post a little shorter, perhaps you should write a book about spelling,punctuation and world knowledge. While your at it do a nice chapter about MARKETSHARE! it seems you have missed that class.

[thatwendigo]

Please that wendigo lets not talk about companies who sells componets for more then they are worth. Apple has done that for years and even today.

So? Does that at all change that Alienware is far overpriced for what they sell, and that they don't even have Apple's hardware problems as an excuse?

Way to miss the point, tiger. :rolleyes:

also lets keep your post a little shorter, perhaps you should write a book about spelling,punctuation and world knowledge. While your at it do a nice chapter about MARKETSHARE! it seems you have missed that class.

You know, it's kind of funny that you sound just like a guy I work with. Too bad he was homeless for two years, smoked crack, has only one tooth on the upper row because of it, and always comes to me to fix his computer... Any time I demolish one of his half-baked stories while he's telling them to someone else, he starts in on my erudition and range of genral knowledge, saying that I ought to have a book if I'm so smart. Well, that doesn't at all change that you can't defeat my arguments, sir.

All you can do is make noise and throw insults, and the people who actually understand things read these discussions and agree with me, whether outright or in private messages. I've made a couple of friends, just from my willingness to keep on countering your FUD.

Does that tell you something?

(Incidentally, for the watchers, I'm not joking or lying about the coworker. He's real, and that's a true and accurate description of him. He also loves reality TV.)

[applebum]

Assume that this is the case, for a moment. I'll play nice and grant for a moment that there could be 100 consumers for every professional user (unlikely, but we'll play that game).

For ten sales to professional users, calling the costs $50 per unit:
1000 x $1,000 = $100,000 ; $100,000 - 50,000 = $50,000
10 X $5,000 = $50,000 ; $50,0000 - $500 = $45,500 and less logistical issues

Sales to professionals tend to be far more profitable, and $5,000 for a serious workstation is peanuts.

Ummm check those numbers - my handy Mac calculator tells me that
1000 x $1000 = $1,000,000 - so the rest of your post just goes down the drain from there; it just doesn't have the same effect. The part above that, I agree with that wholeheartedly though.

[cyberddot]

...for not completely hijacking the thread. I think DHM and thatwendigo need to start their own X-fire IRC program. :D

[Dont Hurt Me]

Thatwendigo How do you get off that alienware is overpriced when a Base alienware exceeds every componet in a Apple G5 1.6? the 3200+ has more muscle and 400 more mhz, the video card it comes with is fx5200 128 mb while apple is using a 64mb fx5200 and you can option up or down almost every componet in the machine so lets get your facts correct. who is overpriced?

Then look at options i mean 9800xt today while it still is not out for Macs, 9600xt for 30 bucks while Apple charges 50 bucks for last years 9600 pro? who is overpriced?

You seem to want to just argue even though some of your arguments are hollow like calling Alienware overpriced when it uses newer and faster technology and cost less? am i missing something? a base Aurora is $1607 vs a base G5 for $1799. so you have a machine that is technically speaking superior and cost almost $200 less overpriced?
I know you love Mac but when black is black you should not insist its not.

Fact is Apple charges more for slower componets and with marketshare declining they will have to do so even more. with little marketshare its not like they can go to ATI and tell them to lower the price or they will use....use what? ATI can tell Apple what it will sell boards to Apple for because of Apple's fraction of the new market. If Apple quit ATI it wouldnt do a whole lot but if ATI quit Apple it would be different. Marketshare does matter and this is only 1 componet inside the Mac. Remember 50% of the machine is still regular PC parts. now start negotiating prices for those other parts with vendors and manufactors and you will discover that marketshare does matter.
also please no more stories of toothless buddies :D edit sorry for getting off post.

[cyberddot]

<snip>Shuttle cases are interesting, but there's very little incentive in them for a company like Apple.

...as evidenced by the Cube dropping out of the market? Once they thought there was incentive for a Shuttle-like system. I'm just curious about whether the market might be going in that direction now (eg, the rising popularity of SFF PC's) combining with the ever-present rumors (in this case Cube-ic) giving strong support to a move back to an upgradable and updated Cube.

I'm not complaining, just pondering. I really don't need a monolith with a G5(s) and lots of room for expansion. I want a mini tower or smaller, not another iMac, with some upgradability and the longevity that such a system provides. This can, of course, run counter to planned obsolescence and the sale of new systems.



The upside for me is that I'm not in a hurry and that I really would rather wait and see what's around the corner in 2004 for Apple before I build a PC for myself. The worst that happens is that I buy a Shuttle-like barebone and build the beast that I want.

dot

/edit - shpelling. DHM - np :D Don't let it happen again..HA...HAHA...HAH

[thatwendigo]

Ummm check those numbers - my handy Mac calculator tells me that
1000 x $1000 = $1,000,000 - so the rest of your post just goes down the drain from there; it just doesn't have the same effect. The part above that, I agree with that wholeheartedly though.

Ouch... Yeah, doing math after eight hours of work and not enough sleep was probably a bad idea. I knew I'd embarass myself along there somewhere.

Thatwendigo How do you get off that alienware is overpriced when a Base alienware exceeds every componet in a Apple G5 1.6? the 3200+ has more muscle and 400 more mhz, the video card it comes with is fx5200 128 mb while apple is using a 64mb fx5200 and you can option up or down almost every componet in the machine so lets get your facts correct. who is overpriced?

Once again, let me try to put this in words that you'll understand... When I say that they're ridiculously overpriced, I'm talking about building your own machine, which is something we can't really do on the mac side of things. In the PC market, there is very little reason not to just buy the parts yourself and assemble them. Alienware, compared to most whitebox shops and doing the work yourself, is hideously overpriced.

You seem to want to just argue even though some of your arguments are hollow like calling Alienware overpriced when it uses newer and faster technology and cost less? am i missing something?

Yes, you are missing something, and no, my arguments aren't hollow. You just don't understand them. Ever.

Fact is Apple charges more for slower componets and with marketshare declining they will have to do so even more. with little marketshare its not like they can go to ATI and tell them to lower the price or they will use....use what? ATI can tell Apple what it will sell boards to Apple for because of Apple's fraction of the new market.

*perks*

Wait, what? Is that a glimmer of something relevant I see?

If Apple quit ATI it wouldnt do a whole lot but if ATI quit Apple it would be different. Marketshare does matter and this is only 1 componet inside the Mac. Remember 50% of the machine is still regular PC parts. now start negotiating prices for those other parts with vendors and manufactors and you will discover that marketshare does matter.

This is a historic moment, in that I think DHM and I actually agree on something. Yes, the deals that Apple has with ATI and Nvidia are important, and they do have something to do with market share. However, I seriously doubt that they're nearly as reliant on then as you seem to think they are, aside from the simple fact of economies of scale (which I've been throwing at you over, and over, and over...). Fewer machines means smaller productions runs, which means less profit for ATI/Nvidia if they sell them at the same price as other cards, and so they charge more. That's just how it's going to be, and it won't change much regardless of the number of macs sold.

They know that there is no serious competition from anyone else. Where else is Apple going to get cards, after all? They're the only game in town, and this has a lot more to do with the other companies than Apple.

also please no more stories of toothless buddies :D

Hey, you're the one who argues like the toothless crackhead. I can't help that! ;)

[Rower_CPU]

Keep it civil.

Any more insults - thinly veiled or otherwise - will result in a temporary ban of the offender and the thread being closed.

[aswitcher]

If they bring out the low end PowerMac as a G5Cube, how much do you think they could knock off the sticker price compared to the current 1.6 price point? $300 US? More?
Lets assume you get 1 slot not 3...only room for 1 harddisk...what ever chip/processor is the bottom of the next release (2Ghz?)...

[thatwendigo]

Keep it civil.

Any more insults - thinly veiled or otherwise - will result in a temporary ban of the offender and the thread being closed.

Does that mean I can PM you the next time he insults me?

[thatwendigo]

If they bring out the low end PowerMac as a G5Cube, how much do you think they could knock off the sticker price compared to the current 1.6 price point? $300 US? More?
Lets assume you get 1 slot not 3...only room for 1 harddisk...what ever chip/processor is the bottom of the next release (2Ghz?)...

Knock off? You're kidding, right?

Not only are you talking about shrinking the motherboard as a whole, but also needing to fit all of that in a much smaller, lower airflow case, with fewer fans and less room for convection to take care of the worst of the dispersal needs. Even if there's a small savings on connectors on the boards, it will still mean a whole new motherboard design, and possibly a new ASIC (does anyone know if Apple uses a different ASIC for single and dual machines?).

There were some good reasons that he cube was more expensive and lower performing than its bretheren.

[aswitcher]

Knock off? You're kidding, right?


Ah, no. ?Knock off?


Not only are you talking about shrinking the motherboard as a whole, but also needing to fit all of that in a much smaller, lower airflow case, with fewer fans and less room for convection to take care of the worst of the dispersal needs. Even if there's a small savings on connectors on the boards, it will still mean a whole new motherboard design, and possibly a new ASIC (does anyone know if Apple uses a different ASIC for single and dual machines?).

There were some good reasons that he cube was more expensive and lower performing than its bretheren.

I think there is a sizeable niche, as others have commented, for a single processor, small form factor G5 machine sans monitor.

I understand its smaller, but its also a single processor, and not the fastest but the slowest of the G5s for the next rev. If they can cool a laptop then they can surely cool this and keep the noise down even with a smaller shell. There are plenty of small form factor PCs out there with fast processors and big graphics cards, so I don't see this as much of an issue.

Price point might be as, as you say their are R&D and manufacturing overheads.

I still think its worth consideration.

[Rower_CPU]

Does that mean I can PM you the next time he insults me?

Use the report post feature (as anyone should do if they see a post in violation of forum rules) - just click on the exclamation point sign under the member's information and fill out the form.

[thatwendigo]

I understand its smaller, but its also a single processor, and not the fastest but the slowest of the G5s for the next rev. If they can cool a laptop then they can surely cool this and keep the noise down even with a smaller shell. There are plenty of small form factor PCs out there with fast processors and big graphics cards, so I don't see this as much of an issue.

As you might have noticed, we haven't seen any G5 laptops yet, so we don't know if they can cool one just yet. For all we know, the 970 isn't going portable for another year, just like the G4 took around a year and a half to make the leap of format. Also, as you might be forgetting, Apple does elegant hardware design, not cheap stamped boxees that look, frankly, like some kind of strange Gamecube mutation on steroids.

Those small formfactor machines aren't as quiet as, say, my eMac, though. After the whole "wind tunnel" G4 debacle, I think that's an important thing to consider... :D

I still think its worth consideration.

Oh, no doubt... It's worth considering, but the important thing is to keep a solid head on our shoulders while we're doing so.

[ravenvii]

On the ATI/nVidia graphics cards, why couldn't Apple use regular, off-the-shelve cards instead of the Mac-specific ones they use? Wouldn't that save on costs and help them keep up with the PC side, updates-wise?

[rdowns]

If they bring out the low end PowerMac as a G5Cube, how much do you think they could knock off the sticker price compared to the current 1.6 price point? $300 US? More?
Lets assume you get 1 slot not 3...only room for 1 harddisk...what ever chip/processor is the bottom of the next release (2Ghz?)...

$300-$500 would be realistic to ideal. It's what I want, don't really care about the price. I can afford whatever I want and I don't want the aluminum beast.

[aswitcher]

$300-$500 would be realistic to ideal. It's what I want, don't really care about the price. I can afford whatever I want and I don't want the aluminum beast.

If you take a look at the design

http://www.apple.com/powermac/design.html

removing one processor knocks off about a quarter of the housing requirement.

Knocking off the feet and handles would save significant space as well.

I am sure that the DVD could be slimmed down and the need for only 1 harddisk could save some space.

I think its doable even with current parts to cut it by a third in size. If they put the disk drives and power plant paraelle and vertical to the design it would halve the height and only increase the width by a half, although they would likely need doors on either side to make the unit fully accessible - not that they have to.

Anyway I am sure they could do soemthing like this if they felt the market was there.

[stoid]

<snip>I never said it's ideal, just that it's the situation as it stands, and not the horrible emergency that you seem to think it is. Like others have pointed out, BMW has less than 2% of the car market, but you don't see people saying that they're going out of business.<snip>

Yes, but, remember BMW uses exactly the same gasoline and picks up the same radio stations as any other car. Apple depends on other companies to see them as a viable market. If BMW depended on radio stations to broadcast differently JUST for them, or required the refineries to have a new plant built JUST for their cars, they wouldn't stay in business too long I think.

[cait-sith]

I might be willing to accept that there are 500 million people in the world who could afford a truly modern computer. You seem to be expressing the same lack of basic economics that you show off in other places, since roughly two to three fifths of the wealth of the world is in America, while only about 300 million people live here. According to the US Census Beureau (http://www.census.gov/), the United States population is 292,943,042, out of a total world population of 6,359,514,472. That's only 4.6% of the world possessing some 40-60% of the wealth. Let's say that there's only a billion dollars to go around, all over the world. In other words, 95.4% of the world is splitting up about the same amount of money as our 4.6% are.


according to the world bank, the top 15% of the world population (which would be 900M people) own 62.9% of world wealth. it would be more accurate to talk of the '1st world', and change the figure from 95/5 to 85/15.

the 900M would include the richer people in america, most of western europe, canada, japan, australia, etc.

then, lets not forget that subdivided, the median income of these countries is around 30 000$/an. this is pretty slim for someone to want to buy a new computer with. so the % of people who can afford computers in each country is, say, around 66/34, saying that only 34% of people could afford.
thats only about 300M.

so, when worked out, the figures are pretty close to your estimates. these can't really be argued.

[Koodauw]

$300-$500 would be realistic to ideal. It's what I want, don't really care about the price. I can afford whatever I want and I don't want the aluminum beast.

Want to place an order for 2 G5 cubes and send me one when they come out then? Cause I know you want to help those without a Cube right?

Please Please Please :)

Man now anything other than a G5 cube is going to disappoint me. Well maybe not the new iMac could still be darn cool.

[aswitcher]

Want to place an order for 2 G5 cubes and send me one when they come out then? Cause I know you want to help those without a Cube right?

Please Please Please :)

Man now anything other than a G5 cube is going to disappoint me. Well maybe not the new iMac could still be darn cool.

There are those like me who think the new G5 imac will have a cube base, so you might be in luck...

[Dont Hurt Me]

All of these arguments boil down to Apples tier structure, for lack of a better term it simply sucks. Apple is loosing its customer base by not allowing the customer to get the machine to suite their needs. The whole Steve Jobs tier structure was good years ago but not any longer. Customer is King not Steve Jobs and the sooner Apple discovers this the better off we and Apple will be. Apple needs more customers and we need computers to suite what we may do with them. Whats so darn hard about that APPLE CORP???

[IndyGopher]

On the ATI/nVidia graphics cards, why couldn't Apple use regular, off-the-shelve cards instead of the Mac-specific ones they use? Wouldn't that save on costs and help them keep up with the PC side, updates-wise?
A straight-froward question, and one with a straight-forward answer. PC's and Mac's are different endian. Little endian vs. Big endian... now, technically, the PowerPC is Bi-endian, but (if I remember correctly) the bootstrap section of the ROM that is necessary to recognize boot-time devices (like a video card) is not as liberal as the rest of the system, and only understands Big-endian.

From the Webopedia:
The adjectives big-endian and little-endian refer to which bytes are most significant in multi-byte data types and describe the order in which a sequence of bytes is stored in a computer’s memory.

In a big-endian system, the most significant value in the sequence is stored at the lowest storage address (i.e., first). In a little-endian system, the least significant value in the sequence is stored first.

Many mainframe computers, particularly IBM mainframes, use a big-endian architecture. Most modern computers, including PCs, use the little-endian system. The PowerPC system is bi-endian because it can understand both systems.

[ingenious]

A straight-froward question, and one with a straight-forward answer. PC's and Mac's are different endian. Little endian vs. Big endian... now, technically, the PowerPC is Bi-endian, but (if I remember correctly) the bootstrap section of the ROM that is necessary to recognize boot-time devices (like a video card) is not as liberal as the rest of the system, and only understands Big-endian.

From the Webopedia:
The adjectives big-endian and little-endian refer to which bytes are most significant in multi-byte data types and describe the order in which a sequence of bytes is stored in a computer’s memory.

In a big-endian system, the most significant value in the sequence is stored at the lowest storage address (i.e., first). In a little-endian system, the least significant value in the sequence is stored first.

Many mainframe computers, particularly IBM mainframes, use a big-endian architecture. Most modern computers, including PCs, use the little-endian system. The PowerPC system is bi-endian because it can understand both systems.

that was straight forward? :eek:

[Mav451]

The cards from the Mac and PC side use a different, specific bios. That's why they can't work "off the shelf", as off the shelf is going to be wholly PC side, and not Mac side.

[ravenvii]

So why don't Apple make it so that they can use the same BIOS?

[the future]

As lots of people have "flashed" PC video cards to make them work in Macs, the differences between PC and Mac versions can't be very big. Probably ATI et. al just milk the Mac users because they can.

[Mav451]

That probably is true. Not that Apple really has much of a choice in the matter...

I wonder how much PPC and the chipset differences have/or have nothing to do with the different Video Card bios?

[rueyeet]

Get rid of Jobs and find someone from the PC world that knows whats going on and who wants to sell to consumers not just a bunch of Pro's.

How about Gateway CEO (and founder) Ted Waitt? He should have time for a CEO-ship, since he's giving up the CEO spot of his own company to eMachines' CEO Wayne Inouye. Doesn't even have to worry about his retail stores anymore. :p

Apple will never beat Dell at the low-cost, high-volume game that has sent every other PC manufacturer scrambling for profits. Alienware wouldn't either, which is why that's not their strategy. What thatwendigo was trying to say is that it's a choice between selling to the masses for low prices, and relying on volume to make up for low margins; or selling to at higher prices to a smaller market, and making up the difference on the smaller volume in the higher margins. Apple and Alienware have both gone the second road, since Dell's got the first pretty well blocked off in the computer market. Neither Apple nor Alienware will probably ever have significant market share.

Where Apple and Alienware differ, and where your main beef seems to lie, is in the customization offered to the buyer. But that, too, is a difference in retail philosophy. Alienware offers the high level of customization that it does because of its roots in providing tricked-out, top-of-the-line systems for gamers, who are used to the concept of tweaking and modding their machines, fine-tuning components to maximize performance. That kind of consumer would settle for nothing less than absolute freedom to define their own system.

Apple is not serving that kind of consumer. There are those who would go to Alienware's site and have no clue which graphic card was better, and not care. There are those who find that a site like Dell offers so many choices that it's confusing. There was a time in Mac history (the Performas) when there were so many models with so many spec sheets that no one could tell them apart, and it hurt sales. For these consumers, the fact that a Mac comes with what they need (because we're not talking about the Mac users who know or care about their graphics card--those are the pro users), doesn't have a million confusing options, and is usable for most people most of the time is what they care about.

If you want hyper-configurability along with a low price, you are indeed better off on the x86 side of the fence. The Alienware machines you're looking at are probably the better choice---for you. But then, you aren't the consumer that Apple is targeting (much to your annoyance, it seems). :)

[cyberddot]

I guess what the thread meant to suggest was that some of us would be willing to drop Apple-Dollars on a system that is like the iMac, only on one that is a little better. As others have said, Apple's already got the sealed box that is eMac. The iMac could provide that transitional box with limited user-end upgradability. That version would cost more in order for Apple to profit from the upgradable and therefor more enduring piece of art. Soon? Probably not, but the Cube wasn't pulled from the line up with no hope to return to it, or a similar footprint.

:mad: Others might start thier own "beef" thread(s) which will provide ample opportunity for you unemployed psychiatrists and economists with what appears to be a great need to assuage those deep seated resentment(s) of Steve Jobs, or the simian fascination with shiny green boxes. :D Oops, I stepped down a level didn't I?

Thanks for your consideration, and you more level headed approach to staying on topic, or starting your own conversation.

Cheers,
Dot