Macs and Politics v.3

[Backtothemac]

Ok, This had to be started due to a thread that had been recently hijacked. Lets keep it on the topic discussed, and not get into side tracks. The last one of these went about 500 posts, so it should have its own avatar.

So. Bring it on. And hold on for the ride.

And groovebuster.

I have a BA in Political Science with an emphsis in Terrorism and Counter Terror. Also a BA in History with an emphsis in military history. I am 6 hours short of a Masters in Political Science. I have worked for the CIA, and have done several interships. Bring it my friend. Bring it ;)

[Rower_CPU]

I'll get in on this one early, since I sat out for v.2.:D

So what is the board turning into: US vs The World?

What's the deal, people?

My credentials: BA French w/ Spanish minor, 7 years living as a minority in one of the world's most diverse places, Hawai'i

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Ok, This had to be started due to a thread that had been recently hijacked. Lets keep it on the topic discussed, and not get into side tracks. The last one of these went about 500 posts, so it should have its own avatar.

So. Bring it on. And hold on for the ride.

And groovebuster.

I have a BA in Political Science with an emphsis in Terrorism and Counter Terror. Also a BA in History with an emphsis in military history. I am 6 hours short of a Masters in Political Science. I have worked for the CIA, and have done several interships. Bring it my friend. Bring it ;)

Nice try to impress me, but education doesn't say anything. I met a lot of educated people (not just your cute BAs) with just ***** in their heads. If education would always lead to the same opinion, why educated people don't have all the same opinion? ;)

So I don't care about your education. I only care about arguments a person is bringing. So I hope you don't mind that I don't throw in my education. This is not a competition who has the biggest...

But actually, maybe I feel a little bit anyway to discuss some stuff here. And you could make a good start be explaining why you think that the US are the best country in the world.

And please, only facts and not just "because". i had that too often in discussions like that. :)

So... go ahed!

groovebuster

[Rower_CPU]

We only mention our education to point out that we are not "ignorant Americans" who have no multicultural experience. It gives you an idea where we are coming from. It's usually a good idea when entering into a debate to make these kind of explanatory statements.

Your unwillingness to do likewise makes it dificult for us to find a common ground on which to discuss things.

Actually you were already asked something similar in the other thread, so I think it's your turn:
Originally posted by mcrain here (http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=6718&perpage=40&pagenumber=2)
If you want to say that the US isn't the best country, then back it up. What is? Who's better and why?

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by groovebuster


Nice try to impress me, but education doesn't say anything. I met a lot of educated people (not just your cute BAs) with just ***** in their heads. If education would always lead to the same opinion, why educated people don't have all the same opinion? ;)

So I don't care about your education. I only care about arguments a person is bringing. So I hope you don't mind that I don't throw in my education. This is not a competition who has the biggest...

But actually, maybe I feel a little bit anyway to discuss some stuff here. And you could make a good start be explaining why you think that the US are the best country in the world.

And please, only facts and not just "because". i had that too often in discussions like that. :)

So... go ahed!

groovebuster

You miss the point completely. I am not saying that the people here are better, although the french... Well, I am not going there. Look, I think that this is the greatest country on the planet because of our constitution. The structure of the governmnet, the power of the people. That is what makes this country so great. We are, and always have been very protective of out alies. We have stood by the name of freedom and liberty for over 200 years. We have stood for right for 200 years.

Now, my education was given because of the ignorant American statements is the other thread. That is like saying those damn war mongers in Germany. That is not true at all. Stereotypes are not good to have. You questioned my intelligence, I gave you an answer.

How Bout that Rower. The twin towers are in the house!

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
We only mention our education to point out that we are not "ignorant Americans" who have no multicultural experience. It gives you an idea where we are coming from. It's usually a good idea when entering into a debate to make these kind of explanatory statements.

Your unwillingness to do likewise makes it dificult for us to find a common ground on which to discuss things.

Actually you were already asked something similar in the other thread, so I think it's your turn:


I don't agree on that. I don't see what the education has to do with a common ground for a discussion. Neither it can be evaluated if it is true, nor it has any impact on the discussion. Or shall we also discuss if an opinion is worth more than another one just because someone is a professor and the other one has "just" a bachelor? I think that doesn't matter, right?

I think the fact that my english isn't too bad for someone whose mothertongue is german is already showing that I can't be uneducated.

The only thing that you need to know is, that I live in Germayn, that I am early 30's (wife&kid) and that I am an academic (studied at university).

The first problem we should discuss is the definition of "the best". What makes something the best? Is it possible at all to be objective about it? If we can find commono ground on that we can start to discuss.

groovebuster

[jelloshotsrule]

here's my response i initially posted in the yankees thread, then i saw this.

Originally posted by groovebuster
And actually in Europe it is not that seldom to move to other countries. Some friends of mine live in the Netherlands, France, Spain and the UK. None in the US. On the other hand I know quite a few Americans (and lots of other nationalities) that live here in Europe and they don't want to go back to the US or to their hoem countries.

Your point of view is pretty biased and hearing you talking like that makes me doubt that you have been outside a lot of the US in your life, otherwise you wouldn't talk like that.


right, so people have moved from america to europe, asia and all over. just as tons of people have moved from europe, asia, and all over to america. you seem to forget that a great amount of our population has not been here all too long. where do you think they come from? since you're so big on population and percentage of populations when comparing.... you think a higher percentage of americans move elsewhere than other people moving to america? that's just off.

i don't by any means think that america is the greatest country in the world. i think that the netherlands and germany have a great way of life. that said, i don't know much about their governments, which could be good or bad. there are plenty of people, americans, germans, brits, french, etc that think their country is the "best". that's how people are. you don't talk as though you are unbiased by the way, you talk like a mad/crazy german who just doesn't like americans.

and i agree that plenty of people visit america and don't want to live here. then again, plenty of americans visit elsewhere and don't move there either. again, that's how it goes. you don't visit a place planning to move there unless there's a much bigger reason.

i do also think that america is the most influential country in the world. for better or for worse. american companies occupy the whole world, as do music, movies etc.

and for your comments about sports... that's just a joke. germany had one more medal than the us in the olympics? ok. who cares? i don't. i'm sure i could find something the us has won or done better lately and then you could find something germany has done better lately etc etc.

your own arguments are just as bad as the people you are arguing against. so next time, just don't be so hypocritical.

much calmer, more realistic comments made by other europeans here have been much more insightful. rather than "your athletes all pop pills and we won more medals per capita" blah blah blah

might want to try a different approach.

[Rower_CPU]

Fine, keep your secrets, it doesn't matter. You're not meeting us halfway here. It's not about education level, but educational/experience background.

You're right, the "Best" is subjective. Each person defines what their own personal standards are for being the best. Just like we Mac users feel that Macs are the best computers for us to use, 90+% of the world feels different...or do they? If they knew more about Macs don't you think they'd want to "switch"?

An opinion formed in ignorance is invalid, since it's based on false principles.

So, what comes next is agreeing on a set of principles.

Your turn.:)

[Backtothemac]

Well, we are all obviously highly educated, otherwise we would not be here at Macrumors. Point is a common basis has been established. So I ask you groove, what in your opinion is the *best* governmnet that is out there? Not which country has the best sports, etc. But government?

[mcrain]

Oh yeah, I'm salivating. A macs and politics v. 3 with a juicy topic like this...

Actually, this is one of those topics that has things that can be measured and used as "proof" for both sides of the argument, as well as things to point to that are purely opinion.

In other words, pointing to medals at the olympics vs. I like one country versus another. One is quantifiable, the other is merely opinion.

That being said, it looks to me that there are two sides to this argument.

One side stands up and says we believe that the US is the best country. The other side says no, it is not.

Ok, again, I ask you. What is? Saying you're wrong without saying what is right is juvinile. Please, I ask you, take a side and give us a reason as to why you're taking that side. That way I can trash your arguments. Just bring it.

Oh, and on education. It makes a difference, if for no other reason than the more highly educated you are, the more you have been "taught" to think. Uneducated people are far more likely to blindly accept a statement as fact when it should be questioned.

I have to address the only substantive point that was made by our German friend. Sure, you're bi-lingual. Ok, yippie! American's could easily learn other languages, but why? Why would we need to? (Another little piece of evidence whowing which country is most influential)

I'm getting frustrated with your "America isn't the best country" statements. Maybe it isn't, but if you don't think it is, tell us which country you think is best so we can have an intelligent discussion regarding the merits of our respective positions.

Otherwise, this thread will likely just end before it ever gets interesting.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Well, we are all obviously highly educated, otherwise we would not be here at Macrumors. Point is a common basis has been established. So I ask you groove, what in your opinion is the *best* governmnet that is out there? Not which country has the best sports, etc. But government?

He's not going to take a side. He just wants to try to bash the States.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
An opinion formed in ignorance is invalid, since it's based on false principles.

So, what comes next is agreeing on a set of principles.

Your turn.:)

For some reason WWII comes to mind, and I can't quite figure out why... :confused:

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by mcrain


For some reason WWII comes to mind, and I can't quite figure out why... :confused:

Not only that but if it wasn't for us they would be one of the smaller provinces in the friggin Russian empire.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Not only that but if it wasn't for us they would be one of the smaller provinces in the friggin Russian empire.

Yeah, and how much of West Germany's economy was because we had to have such a large presence over there? I mean, we weren't in east Germany and it is like a Ghetto, while everywhere we were and had influence, things blossomed.

Strange. Co-inkydink?

[iH8Quark]

Let's not toot our own horn. By and large there is a feeling outsie of the US of contempt for American foreign and / or trade policy. We're hardly popular. We're not the savior of the world, as we think we are. We do some unspeakably terrible and underhanded things all over the world. On the UN's short list of examples of international terrorism includes two acts by the US (e.g. our bombing of Libya in the 80's). We just don't hear about it because our media is controlled by a small faction of ethnocentrics.

Our unflinching support of Israel (which is the international bone of contention with the US) has nothing to do with international political gain, and has everything to do with the fact that the jewish population controls the majority of the money and media in this country. That's not antisemitic, it's just truthful. Don't even bother arguing with me on this one.

Also, if you ask most people outside of the US what they think of it, they will almost invariably tell you it's a very dangerous place; or say something to the effect of "it's very violent". And they're right. We are a darwinistic culture and guns are everywhere. That's just my 2 cents, though.

Which brings me to the reason why I'm writing. Does anyone else think that we should NOT have a Dept. of homeland security? After all isn't that the job of the NSA (who already failed at their task once). Why make it even more complicated? Especially if the CIA and FBI have no representation in it.

[groovebuster]

"right, so people have moved from america to europe, asia and all over. just as tons of people have moved from europe, asia, and all over to america. you seem to forget that a great amount of our population has not been here all too long. where do you think they come from? since you're so big on population and percentage of populations when comparing.... you think a higher percentage of americans move elsewhere than other people moving to america? that's just off."

Neither I never talked about percentages, nor did I say that more people americans move out of the US than immigrants are coming in. Can you please enlight me, why you twist my words?

"i don't by any means think that america is the greatest country in the world. i think that the netherlands and germany have a great way of life. that said, i don't know much about their governments, which could be good or bad. there are plenty of people, americans, germans, brits, french, etc that think their country is the "best". that's how people are. you don't talk as though you are unbiased by the way, you talk like a mad/crazy german who just doesn't like americans."

Well, then it is good for you that you don't think that narrow-minded. But if you check the other Thread carefully again you'll find that I referred to some people who claimed the US to be the best country in the world in everything. Considering that my statements appears in adifferent light, don't you think?

"and i agree that plenty of people visit america and don't want to live here. then again, plenty of americans visit elsewhere and don't move there either. again, that's how it goes. you don't visit a place planning to move there unless there's a much bigger reason."

I didn't say anything different from that! There is no point to discuss that.

"i do also think that america is the most influential country in the world. for better or for worse. american companies occupy the whole world, as do music, movies etc."

Yup, most influental on some things. And in some cases it's not for good. You could call it economical imperialism.

"and for your comments about sports... that's just a joke."

Exactly... it was a joke! If you would have noticed all the little ;) and :D dudes you could have seen that I was sarcastic and not serious about it.

"germany had one more medal than the us in the olympics? ok. who cares?"

Interesting. At first people are telling you that the US are the best and win the most medals in the Olympics because the are so superior and when you show them that they are not they say "whatever, I don't care".

Hmmm... kinda strange isn't it?

"i don't. i'm sure i could find something the us has won or done better lately and then you could find something germany has done better lately etc etc."

That was exactly my point. Maybe you really should have read my postings more carefully.

"your own arguments are just as bad as the people you are arguing against. so next time, just don't be so hypocritical.

much calmer, more realistic comments made by other europeans here have been much more insightful. rather than "your athletes all pop pills and we won more medals per capita" blah blah blah

might want to try a different approach."

Calm down! ... read AND understand what other people wrote next time, because otherwise that "hypocritical" statement is firing back on you...

Greetings,

groovebuster

[jelloshotsrule]

i agree with you ih8quark....

that said, i don't agree with groovebuster's attack of america based (at the start) on some childish sports comments.


that's the main reason i got involved.

as i said, we aren't the best country. though along those lines, i don't think there is one. every place has its flaws. just as every person does.

oh well. i'll let these guys duke it out with groove some more.. though he won't realize he's just egging it on with his non insightful retorts.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by mcrain


He's not going to take a side. He just wants to try to bash the States.

That statement is exactly what kills any constructive discussion!

Thanks a lot! Very respectful...

groovebuster

[mcrain]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
Our unflinching support of Israel (which is the international bone of contention with the US) has nothing to do with international political gain, and has everything to do with the fact that the jewish population controls the majority of the money and media in this country. That's not antisemitic, it's just truthful. Don't even bother arguing with me on this one.
Do you honestly think the US only, and I mean ONLY, supports Isreal because of some lobbiests and money? You mean to say that if they didn't have lobbiests and money, we'd support the muslim countries in committing genocide? Oh come on.

Isreal is a small country, with a small population, surrounded by people who hate them. We're talking about America here. We stand up for the people getting picked on, not the bully.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by groovebuster
That statement is exactly what kills any constructive discussion!

Thanks a lot! Very respectful...

groovebuster

I'm trying to point out that you have done nothing but bash the US, without giving us your opinion on what you do think is the best country. If you think Bosnia is the best country, we'd at least have something to compare to.

All i want from you is your opinion on what you think is the best country, rather than you merely saying you disagree with our opinion.

That IS constructive discussion.

As for respectful, I want to have a civilized discussion with you, but you insist on merely saying the US is bad without more.

[Rower_CPU]

You're ignoring my question, any reason why?

What are the principles/standards that a country should be based on to qulaify as the "best"?

mcrain said what he did because you keep avoiding questions, which makes it seem like you're not really after discussion, but just insulting America to get a reaction out of us.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
Let's not toot our own horn. By and large there is a feeling outsie of the US of contempt for American foreign and / or trade policy. We're hardly popular. We're not the savior of the world, as we think we are. We do some unspeakably terrible and underhanded things all over the world. On the UN's short list of examples of international terrorism includes two acts by the US (e.g. our bombing of Libya in the 80's). We just don't hear about it because our media is controlled by a small faction of ethnocentrics.

Our unflinching support of Israel (which is the international bone of contention with the US) has nothing to do with international political gain, and has everything to do with the fact that the jewish population controls the majority of the money and media in this country. That's not antisemitic, it's just truthful. Don't even bother arguing with me on this one.

Also, if you ask most people outside of the US what they think of it, they will almost invariably tell you it's a very dangerous place; or say something to the effect of "it's very violent". And they're right. We are a darwinistic culture and guns are everywhere. That's just my 2 cents, though.


Thanks. I couldn't have said it better. Takes a lot of work from me, coz I don't have to write it again myself.

groovebuster

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
he's just egging it on with his non insightful retorts.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

[jelloshotsrule]

"Neither I never talked about percentages, nor did I say that more people americans move out of the US than immigrants are coming in. Can you please enlight me, why you twist my words?"

you implied that no one wants to move to america whereas people in europe move around within there, and americans move to europe all the time. the percentages was referencing your comments about using population to as a factor to determine how well a country did in the olympics based on medal count and population. so you didn't say "percentages" you mentioned population and thus referred to a notion that the us's ratio (better word?) of people:medals was poor. but anyways, i don't care about that.

"Well, then it is good for you that you don't think that narrow-minded. But if you check the other Thread carefully again you'll find that I referred to some people who claimed the US to be the best country in the world in everything. Considering that my statements appears in adifferent light, don't you think?"

i agree that people claim that. just as some germans think germany is the best etc. what's your point?

"Yup, most influental on some things. And in some cases it's not for good. You could call it economical imperialism."

if you want to give it a name, sure. and as i said, it's not always good.

"Interesting. At first people are telling you that the US are the best and win the most medals in the Olympics because the are so superior and when you show them that they are not they say "whatever, I don't care"."

hey guess what, you should read what i said. cause in my ONE post on it, i never once said that i think the us is greater than any other country. especially not in sports. i never mentioned sports other than to mention that they don't matter. yet you equate me to the people who are arguing with you over sports. read.

'"i don't. i'm sure i could find something the us has won or done better lately and then you could find something germany has done better lately etc etc."'

"That was exactly my point. Maybe you really should have read my postings more carefully."

i did read them. but you were going back and forth arguing about medals counts and drug use etc etc. just egging it on. if that was your point, state it, and move on.

"Calm down! ... read AND understand what other people wrote next time, because otherwise that "hypocritical" statement is firing back on you..."

haha. i read them all actually. you just assume that as an american i can't agree with you so anytime i say something you might have said you see it as attacking you using your own opinions, when in reality, i'm restating them such that i agree with you.

i agree with you for the most part, that's the thing. but your method of convincing, or even just making valid points is pathetic. ih8quark made much better points in a short post. one post. unlike your many. so if you don't like the dumb "i'm better" banter, don't be a part of it. use your intelligence rather than this petty BS.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by groovebuster


Thanks. I couldn't have said it better. Takes a lot of work from me, coz I don't have to write it again myself.

groovebuster

Ok, correct me if I've got this wrong, but you're a German, saying that America is bad because we bombed Libya in the 80's when they were supporting terrorism, we have right to carry and own gun laws, and WE SUPPORT ISRAEL?

Please, you can't possibly be that ignorent of your countries own past?

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by groovebuster
Thanks. I couldn't have said it better. Takes a lot of work from me, coz I don't have to write it again myself.


you prove my only real point in this mess. had you gone about it as calmly and clearly as ih8quark, things would have been much calmer and this would be a useful discussion rather than a childish debate.

[groovebuster]

@Rower & mcrain:

I'm not ignoring you, i just still also have some other things to do...

The answer is very simple... there is just no best country in the world... I could tell you a lot of stuff what I don't like about the US, but that is totally subjective. There is also a lot of stuff that I don't like about Germany or France or any other country... but it isn't possible to "measure" those things and to make a ranking. It depends too much on your personal likes and dislikes and you mentality.

There are countries that are a nice place to live and some are not very likely to be on top of my list, but that ranking is very personal. The only country I would consider to live in at the moment is Canada.

groovebuster

[mcrain]

Originally posted by groovebuster
@Rower & mcrain:

I'm not ignoring you, i just still also have some other things to do...

The answer is very simple... there is just no best country in the world... I could tell you a lot of stuff what I don't like about the US, but that is totally subjective. There is also a lot of stuff that I don't like about Germany or France or any other country... but it isn't possible to "measure" those things and to make a ranking. It depends too much on your personal likes and dislikes and you mentality.

There are countries that are a nice place to live and some are not very likely to be on top of my list, but that ranking is very personal. The only country I would consider to live in at the moment is Canada.

groovebuster

Ok, Ok, OK, now that is an argument that makes sense. This whole time you kept saying nothing more than the US isn't the best, but never said what you thought was.

On that, I have to agree. Every country has its faults.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by groovebuster
The only country I would consider to live in at the moment is Canada.

AmericaLite?

[iH8Quark]

mcrain, let me guess, you watch Fox News.

Yes, to answer your question. Money talks in Washington. Politicians are not going to act contrary to the will of the sector that controls the media and foots the bill for most of their political campaigns. There's a term for that, it's called political suicide. Character assasination is extremely powerful and dangerous.

Israel is occupying foreign lands. The Palestinians have every right to be enraged about this issue. They have no organized military. They have no tanks, no helicoptors, no armored troop transports given to them by a superpower. They have no choice but to use suicide bombers as a line of fighting back. And lets face it, it's probably working. Israel is just as much at fault for killing innocent people as the Palestinians. This is a freedom fight which cannot be solved militarily. No matter how many incursions Israel can muster up. Right now the Palestinians have nothing to lose, and no real hope.

Might I remind you that Israeli freedom fighters were considered terrorists at one time, too. They used many of the same techniques that the Palestinians are using. Only now they are a recognized country, have real military weapons, a real army, and a superpower as an ally.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


you prove my only real point in this mess. had you gone about it as calmly and clearly as ih8quark, things would have been much calmer and this would be a useful discussion rather than a childish debate.

The only thing that is childish is your attitude to tell how stupid the othe people are without even checking the beginnings of the discussion.

Maybe... just maybe you would have noticed that I was against it first to get into a serious discussion because I didn't see the point... especially awaiting people like you popping in seeing their only mission in bashing people to feel better than them.

You call people childish and act like it yourself.

groovebuster

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
mcrain, let me guess, you watch Fox News.

Just to clarify, this is not a dig. I'm curious.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
mcrain, let me guess, you watch Fox News.

Israel is occupying foreign lands. The Palestinians have every right to be enraged about this issue. They have no organized military. They have no tanks, no helicoptors, no armored troop transports given to them by a superpower. They have no choice but to use suicide bombers as a line of fighting back. And lets face it, it's probably working. Israel is just as much at fault for killing innocent people as the Palestinians. This is a freedom fight which cannot be solved militarily. No matter how many incursions Israel can muster up. Right now the Palestinians have nothing to lose, and no real hope.


Uh, no, why?

On the issue of Israel, how on earth do you come by that statement? Foreign lands? The UN created Isreal and all the other countries surrounding it all at about the same time. Every one of those countries and their borders were set by the UN, and each country there has the same claim to those borders as the next.

That being said, Palestinians? Do some historical research, there is no country of Palestine. In fact, the word is derived from Philistine. There never has been a country of palestine, so how do they have any right to that land superior to anyone else?

Oh, don't give me the "it was their land" argument. The jews were in that part of the world before 550 AD when the muslims invaded the middle east, ane were there even before Islam was even created.

The palestinians, in fact no one, has the right to use suicide bombers like that. That's crazy talk.

If they want to live somewhere in peace, move 20 miles east into Lebenon where they will be surrounded by other muslims. Leave the Isrealis alone.

Isreal was created, immediately attacked, they countered, occupied to create a protective buffer, gave back the land, were attacked, took the land back, gave it back, were attacked again, and again, and again.

I don't see the Isrealis as being the aggressors here, and I don't think that's because of some "media" control by jewish people in this country.

[mcrain]

You know what, I changed my mind. Suicide bombers aren't necessarily a thing that "no one has a right to use" if used against military targets. I don't think I'd be so outraged if the suicide bombers targetted military personnel or military hardware or sites, but they go after women and children.

Dispicable.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
Just to clarify, this is not a dig. I'm curious.

I don't usually watch the news, but isn't Foxnews the news channel that is supposed to be conservative?

Hey Backtothemac! I've been accused of being conservative!

Another sign of the apocolypse!

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by mcrain
I don't see the Isrealis as being the aggressors here.

How many innocent civilians, women and children were killed in Jenin alone? That's only a very recent example. Convenient that Israel wouldn't allow a UN investigation.

All the "incursions" are terrorizing the civilians. They're locked in their homes under threat of death. That's hardly humane.

I'm not taking sides on this issue. This isn't an issue that will be solved on this forum. Heck it hasn't been solved for 3000+ years. I originally just wanted to hear someones thoughts on the proposed Dept. of Homeland security.

;)

[groovebuster]

"you implied that no one wants to move to america whereas people in europe move around within there, and americans move to europe all the time."

Wrong! I said in my environment!!!! And that was the answer to the statement that everybody who ever was in the US doesn't want to go anymore. I just proved it wrong. You twist my words again.

"the percentages was referencing your comments about using population to as a factor to determine how well a country did in the olympics based on medal count and population. so you didn't say "percentages" you mentioned population and thus referred to a notion that the us's ratio (better word?) of people:medals was poor. but anyways, i don't care about that."

And again.

First, that posting wasn't addressed to you. And second it is of course (for me) a question of countrysize that should be considered in the medal count! A rich country with 220 million people is more likely to have a lot of top athletes than a little (also rich country) with 15 million people.

But if you don't care, why do you talk about it?

And again... it wasn't adressed to you. Ripping it out of the context is your way to twist it I guess.

"i agree that people claim that. just as some germans think germany is the best etc. what's your point?"

My point was just to say that the US isn't the best in everything! That was the starting point. So what?

"if you want to give it a name, sure. and as i said, it's not always good."

So we agree on that!

"hey guess what, you should read what i said. cause in my ONE post on it, i never once said that i think the us is greater than any other country. especially not in sports. i never mentioned sports other than to mention that they don't matter. yet you equate me to the people who are arguing with you over sports. read."

Then you also shouldn't answer to posts that weren't adressed to you, don't you think? You answer to them out of context and as if I was talking to you. Why is that?

"i did read them. but you were going back and forth arguing about medals counts and drug use etc etc. just egging it on. if that was your point, state it, and move on."

Don't row back now like that. I didn't talk to you before so why do you bother? I already told you, that the discussion started not very serious... is it so hard to get that?

"haha. i read them all actually. you just assume that as an american i can't agree with you so anytime i say something you might have said you see it as attacking you using your own opinions, when in reality, i'm restating them such that i agree with you."

Actually you attacked all the time. twisting my words, calling me childish etc...pp

You call that a constructive discussion? Very funny! :)

"i agree with you for the most part, that's the thing. but your method of convincing, or even just making valid points is pathetic. ih8quark made much better points in a short post. one post. unlike your many. so if you don't like the dumb "i'm better" banter, don't be a part of it. use your intelligence rather than this petty BS."

That method was appropriate in the beginning because nobody was discussing seriously. It was just teasing each other a little bit. The serious discussion was supposed to start here, but you just came in right in the beginning before anybody had a chance to start off and tried to "slap" me like a little kid ...

groovebuster

[Choppaface]

yalls terrerists yous takes so many personal shots this aint politiks this terreresm

:D :D

[jelloshotsrule]

"First, that posting wasn't addressed to you. And second it is of course (for me) a question of countrysize that should be considered in the medal count! A rich country with 220 million people is more likely to have a lot of top athletes than a little (also rich country) with 15 million people."

i could go back and find the point where you jumped into the other thread, when no one specifically addressed you, but that would be stupid. if you didn't want/expect other people to join the discussion, then use private messages. right? also, i agree that the population should be considered. my point was simply that i thought you were trying to say more people move out of the us to europe than vice versa. and so i was just going to use the population issue to say that a higher percentage of america is filled with immigrants than most other countries i bet.

"But if you don't care, why do you talk about it?"

right. if you were just "joking" so much in the beginning then "why do you talk about it?" i just think your joking got a bit too personal to be the type of joke and run that you were doing. i'm all for joking about countries being great or bad. heck, i always joke with folks on here about their country, when in reality, as i've said, i don't actually think the us is all that great. but all the stuff i joke about is dumb and superficial. anyways, it's tough to know joking on here so it was probably just a miscommunication.

"And again... it wasn't adressed to you. Ripping it out of the context is your way to twist it I guess."

and again, if you post something on here, expect people who it's not addressed to to respond sometimes.

"My point was just to say that the US isn't the best in everything! That was the starting point. So what?"

but you never gave an alternative, that was the only real problem. i agree that the us is not the best in everything. we're horrendous in education. and that's probably one of the most important things there is...

"Then you also shouldn't answer to posts that weren't adressed to you, don't you think? You answer to them out of context and as if I was talking to you. Why is that?"

again, not addressing posts not addressed to you is just dumb. my responses were saying nothing that mcrain and backtothemac weren't saying except that i thought you had good points buried in your attacks, but weren't stating them clearly or constructively.

"Don't row back now like that. I didn't talk to you before so why do you bother? I already told you, that the discussion started not very serious... is it so hard to get that?"

it's not hard to get. but clearly, it got serious. and far before i got involved. otherwise i wouldn't have. i'd have joked back. as i usually do.

"Actually you attacked all the time. twisting my words, calling me childish etc...pp"

no. i said that i probably agree with you on most things but that you need to find a better way to say the things in a clearer, less attacking way. it was just the tone. which, if you were joking totally then sorry. as it's too easy to take them seriously on here. but you and mcrain and b2tm were going at it before i joined. so regardless of how it started, it was serious when i got involved.

"You call that a constructive discussion? Very funny! :)"

no, that's the point. i was saying we could have had one. and at this point, we're getting there. but your joking attacks went a bit too far to be taken jokingly, and thus, were responded too in kind. we're getting there though.

"That method was appropriate in the beginning because nobody was discussing seriously. It was just teasing each other a little bit. The serious discussion was supposed to start here, but you just came in right in the beginning before anybody had a chance to start off and tried to "slap" me like a little kid ..."

no. i didn't come in the very beginning of the thread. in fact, i responded at the end of the other thread only to see this thread with 4-5 posts already in it. so it wasn't new. and it got a bit heated in the other thread first. don't accuse me of escalating it.

in the end. my point is just that your joking went a bit too far (at least far enough to get the 2 other guys to react strongly). and then you continued to joke while they weren't, and thus didn't give as thoughtful responses as you could have. and i'm sure, as i said, you have many good points and thoughts on the matter. i simply think that a bit earlier things should have become a bit more intelligent rather than harping on the joking. or else make it clearer you were kidding.

all boils down to miscommunication, as always.

anyhoo, i like germany and holland a lot. i find many of the american governmental policies dispicable. much like ih8quark. he is better at presenting himself than i am though.

anyhoo, i extend the olive branch to put an end to the bickering and continue intelligently. eh?

peace

[/B][/QUOTE]

[groovebuster]

I just want to remind you guys, why we got into that discussion. There was the statement that the US are superior in everything. I just expressed that I don't think so. Just to discuss that is quite strange, because by nature no human being and expecially no country can be the best in everything.

Maybe some of guys are not able to reflect about yourself, but a lot of the attitude that you show here is pure arrogance. If you would know more about the world outside North America you would be more modest about your patriotism. The USA is the last remaining super power, no question about that, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is the playground for american interests and you can just define the rules however you like them to be, giving a damn about the interests of other countries and cultures.

Power has to be used with caution and responsibility. The US act like the roman empire at the moment.

The foreign policy is a tragedy and makes the US losing a lot of credibility in the world. Unfortunately some individuals act just the same in discussions like this one here.

On top of that the recent developments about the war-crime tribunal in The Hague, just as an example. So by law the US soon can invade the Netherlands to free US citizens, no matter if they really committed a war-crime or not. The entire civilized world is comitted to the tribunal, except the USA.
The message to the world is: americans can do whatever they like to, we make our own laws and if you can't deal with it we don't care.

There is no reason why the US should be the only country in the world, that can't be charged for war-crimes.

If you want to be a leader, also on moral issues, you have to be part of the whole game and the same rules and morals should apply to you as for the rest of the world. That includes listening to your "friends" and not just bouncing them around to get the biggest outcome for your own interests. That way friendship can be over faster than you expect.

The latest discussion to use tactical nuclear weapons not just for the last measure in the case of defense, but also for offensive strikes against potential enemies is very dangerous.

You tell the world that they are not allowed to have nuclear weapons, but you do. Now that the USA want to use them also for tactical preventive strikes (e.g. Iraq?) you open the doors for other counries to do the same. That could have a very dangerous impact on conflicts like between Pakistan and India. The first time you will do that you give them the justification to use a/b/c-weapons as a protective measure against potential enemies as well. The world will become a chaos, causing the deaths of millions of people.

What's the impact for the NATO? The NATO allows the use of nuclear weapons only for defense. I am sure that a lot of NATO members won't be happy at all, if the law gets really ratified, putting them into a very dangerous situation.

Another thing that is bugging me is the fact that in the opinion of some people the USA never do mistakes and that they are as innocent as a newborn. I could tell you a long list of very bad things that happened in the USA and caused by the USA. But in the american "history books" and memory it is always the fault of the other nations/people/aliens/whatever. If other people try to point that out, they get bashed right away like "without the americans you wouldn't live prospering country". Hmmm.... I also have enough examples for the opposite, that without the US a lot of bad stuff wouldn't have happened... or if they wouldn't have just tried to correct their mistake in first place.

And some people also believe that all the major inventions come from the US. But very often that is plain wrong.

Power has a very big dowside. It can make you presumptuous. And the attitude of the US towards the rest of the world is destroying a lot lately. It seems that (almost) the whole country is going crazy since 9/11. I really hope that the US and a lot of their citizens will calm down soon again, otherwise I am very pessimistic about the future of our planet.

The most powerful country in the world has nothing to do with the "best" country in the world. Once you get that there is maybe hope again.

So see you some other time for some Mac discussion.

Regards

groovebuster

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


peace [/B][/QUOTE]

Peace! :)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
How many innocent civilians, women and children were killed in Jenin alone? That's only a very recent example. Convenient that Israel wouldn't allow a UN investigation.

All the "incursions" are terrorizing the civilians. They're locked in their homes under threat of death. That's hardly humane.


just curious about any articles or stuff online that you could recommend regarding the israeli terrorist type actions...?

i agree with you that the palestinians aren't the only ones doing inhumane things and that israel has to change too. just thought it'd help me and the others understand a bit more if you have some links?

well spoken though.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by groovebuster
The only thing that is childish is your attitude to tell how stupid the othe people are without even checking the beginnings of the discussion.

Maybe... just maybe you would have noticed that I was against it first to get into a serious discussion because I didn't see the point... especially awaiting people like you popping in seeing their only mission in bashing people to feel better than them.

You call people childish and act like it yourself.


again, i just wanted to encourage you to express your points in a more serious manner, as the other guys were taking it seriously but you were joking in return... i didn't meant to call you dumb, just to get you to give us an idea where you're coming from...

i don't bash people to feel better though. i think those who know me decently know i'm a positive person and i try to be happy go lucky, like eyelikeart.

peace.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by groovebuster
I just want to remind you guys, why we got into that discussion. There was the statement that the US are superior in everything. I just expressed that I don't think so. Just to discuss that is quite strange, because by nature no human being and expecially no country can be the best in everything.

Where did anyone say that? Show us the quote.

I think this is a case of miscommunication, just like jello said.:rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Where did anyone say that? Show us the quote.

I think this is a case of miscommunication, just like jello said.:rolleyes:

well this is the first quote that groove responded to with any anti american comments. and he did have smileys and whatnot. so he was half joking. then again, the quote is a bit heavy handed as you may see.

Originally posted by mcrain
Yep, when will the world learn. Don't wake the sleeping giant. While we didn't care, all you little countries got your cup victories. Better enjoy it while you can, because once we set our minds to it, this will be yet again, just another sport where American atheletes take over. IMHO at least.

[bonehead]

Ok, correct me if I've got this wrong, but you're a German, saying that America is bad because we bombed Libya in the 80's when they were supporting terrorism, we have right to carry and own gun laws, and WE SUPPORT ISRAEL?

Please, you can't possibly be that ignorent of your countries own past?


McCrain:

Is easy, and cheap, to play the Nazi card when arguing with a German. What is your response to the genocide that was committed right here in the good ol' U.S. of A.? "Which one?", you ask. The answer: the extermination of millions of Native Americans that took place during our country's formation. It seems that even though "all men are created equal" and entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (see the Declaration of Independence), Injuns were exempt. Genocide has happened in many places besides Germany.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by iH8Quark


How many innocent civilians, women and children were killed in Jenin alone? That's only a very recent example. Convenient that Israel wouldn't allow a UN investigation.

All the "incursions" are terrorizing the civilians. They're locked in their homes under threat of death. That's hardly humane.

I'm not taking sides on this issue. This isn't an issue that will be solved on this forum. Heck it hasn't been solved for 3000+ years. I originally just wanted to hear someones thoughts on the proposed Dept. of Homeland security.

;)



i too dont see the isrealis as the aggressors here. that being said that doesnt mean that they are blamless of killing innocent life. it justs seems that MOST of the time isreal is just trying to protect itself. im sure there have been cold blooded attacks by the isreali forces on innocent palestinian civilians or what not. but thats a very small part of it compared to the palestinians directly attacking and trying to kill innocent isreali civilians ALL THE TIME.
why do they do that? why dont they go after the isreali soldiers all the time? whats the deal? if they think that the killing of thier own innocent civilians is wrong why do they do it to the isrealis?

i firmly believe that the enemies of isreal want its destruction and will not settle for anything else. how can you negotiate for peace with such a mentality?



by the way i respect your stance.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mcrain


AmericaLite?

hey macrain, i am here to help you hold up the left wing of macrumors...he he

where is backtothemac to hold up the right wing? he started this thread

but anyways, about canada being america light

how's this...lighter lines at the gas pump, lighter congestion in the cities, lighter amount of pollution, lighter amount of crime, etc

and i know, you can play the other side of "light", but i have always thought america is one of the best countries in the world with canada and maybe switzerland and new zealand as possible "better" countries to live in

but i put america in the top five of nearly 250 countries out there if i had to come out with a ranking

other countries that appeal to me are costa rica, tahiti, england, france, and a fe others

of course, that is totally personal taste

i would not want to live in jerusalem these days and i hope that there will be peace one day

[mcrain]

Originally posted by bonehead
McCrain:

Is easy, and cheap, to play the Nazi card when arguing with a German. What is your response to the genocide that was committed right here in the good ol' U.S. of A.? "Which one?", you ask. The answer: the extermination of millions of Native Americans that took place during our country's formation. It seems that even though "all men are created equal" and entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (see the Declaration of Independence), Injuns were exempt. Genocide has happened in many places besides Germany.

I'm not playing the Nazi card, I'm pointing out a flaw in his argument, as I am about to do with you.

Mr. Groovebuster was arguing with others here. The argument went something like those of us who are US citizens (some of us) were of the opinion that the US has the best government, mix of population, and benefits and we prefer living here to elsewhere. Mr. Groovebuster said, no, America isn't so great, there are better places. (note: in the end, when pressed for where he thought was a better place, he stated that there is no best place, and that his argument was really that the US wasn't all that great, not perfect [which I don't disagree with])

Anyway, Ih8quark jumped in and said that the US and its citizens shouldn't be blind to its own failures, and pointed to our policiy vis a vis Israel. He said, "Our unflinching support of Israel (which is the international bone of contention with the US) has nothing to do with international political gain, and has everything to do with the fact that the jewish population controls the majority of the money and media in this country. That's not antisemitic, it's just truthful. Don't even bother arguing with me on this one."

Groovebuster, then agreed with this quote as support for his argument that the US was not the best place to live.

My response was to indicate that it was a poor choice (for historical reasons) of arguments for a German to state that the US was bad because we support the Israelis because we've been in some way "bought" by the jewish lobbiests. Nazi card? Sure, I am pointing out historical reasons why that's a poor argument for him to be using.

As for the US history of genocide, yes, it happened, which is why you won't hear me, in a similar context, argue that Germany is a bad country because it supports Native Americans.

Flawed arguments all around.