time magazine and end of world article

[jefhatfield]

i just saw time magazine and the cover article practically blames christians for the end of the world rhetoric

this is totally unfair and does not represent christianity as i know it and any end of the world believers have not read the book of revealation (new testament)

only god knows the end of the world and no evangelical, fundamentalist, or jehovah's witness can claim anything i will take over the word of the bible which says nobody knows

the media has painted christendom (religions, denominations, and cults/others) as some sort of new age fashionable cult full of idiots with no brains

that's my gripe for the day

[voicegy]

and in other news:

Stunning politicians on both the left and right, a federal appeals court declared for the first time Wednesday that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional because of the
words "under God'' inserted by Congress in 1954.

The ruling, if allowed to stand, would mean
schoolchildren could no longer recite the pledge, at least in the nine Western states covered by the court.

Critics of the decision were flabbergasted and warned that it calls into question the use of "In God We Trust'' on the nation's currency, the public singing of patriotic songs like "God Bless America,'' even the use of the phrase "So help
me God'' when judges are sworn into office.

more food for thought as we move ever closer to the end times.....;)

[AlphaTech]

Hey jef,

I blame them for it too.. :D :p haaahaaaaa... gotcha...

Acutally, throughout history, they have started more wars and caused more deaths then anyone else. Remember the crusades?? How about the Spanish inquisition??? All done in the name of the christian god... Of course, they always seem to blame us Jews for their main dude getting nailed to a chunk of wood... :D

Do we really want to get into this though???

[mymemory]

Well, I'm not sure if an specific religion is responsable of the actual world problems. Lets not mention Alcaeda and those things for now. The Catholic religion is taking a more responsable place as far as I know. I think most of the costructive religions should do an effort to keep the world in pecae rather than discussin if the wine did or did not had alcohol 2000 years ago.

The problem I see is the comunism or liberalism in to religions. But on the other hand, after the cold world all the comunist, terrorist and drug dealers have been looking for new places to develop their policies (ex. Venezuela).

So, I think that is the mayor reason for most of the problems now days, changing political systems, that too, is a good area to sell/test weapons. The socialism is a most dangerous way of capitalims, creatting conflicts every where, with the end of attaking the US.

[Macpoops]

First of all I am a christian. But Jef you should not be upset by this. After all how long have muslims been labeled as terrorists and cab drivers? Those who know have even the slightest understanding of Islam know that the teaching denounce violence and it is a very peaceful religion. So Americans specifically because of the terrorist acts, automatically assume all muslims want to kill americans. Now if you want a comparision as to why some muslims act as terrorists, here is one. You konw those fundamentalist christians out there that want mandatory prayer in schools, every form of entertainment to be wholesome and positive, etc.... That is how the fundamentalist muslims are seen in the muslim world. Except the Koran and Hadith teach a very simple form of life. Which means they need to rid their world of all the luxuries. Now where are these luxuries from? The US.

So this was a bit long winded but what i want to say is Jef don't be upset about people prejudging christians for once we've been doing it to muslims and jews for years. So what goes around comes around

[jefhatfield]

a few nutcases within christianity get noticed and they somehow begin to represent christianity instead of christ in the eyes of the media

these fundamentalists worship money, power, adulation, and political causes and give real christians a bad name

they worship the top 1 percent of income earners in society and have no goodwill for their fellow man who is poor in the world, or even poor in the united states

a well known talk show host, bernie ward of kgo/abc, calls them the christian white due to their affiliation with the ultra right wing and the christian identity movement and racist attitudes

a few fundamentalists in christianity do not represent christians accurately anymore than al qaeda represents islam

the bible is john 3:16, not seats on capitol hill and membership to an all-white golf course

[AlphaTech]

Perhaps you could [try to] explain how the church can allow child mollesting priests... Also, how about the way they just shift them from one community to another (without telling anyone)?? It was all over the news up here in MA recently. It's also not the first time that this type of thing has been in the news.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Perhaps you could [try to] explain how the church can allow child mollesting priests... Also, how about the way they just shift them from one community to another (without telling anyone)?? It was all over the news up here in MA recently. It's also not the first time that this type of thing has been in the news.

the christian church, catholics and protestants, need to kick those leaders out and send them to the authorities...and apologize and make reparations

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i just saw time magazine and the cover article practically blames christians for the end of the world rhetoric

this is totally unfair and does not represent christianity as i know it and any end of the world believers have not read the book of revealation (new testament)

only god knows the end of the world and no evangelical, fundamentalist, or jehovah's witness can claim anything i will take over the word of the bible which says nobody knows

the media has painted christendom (religions, denominations, and cults/others) as some sort of new age fashionable cult full of idiots with no brains

that's my gripe for the day
I read the article and it didn't sound to me like it was blaming all Christians for end-of-the-world rhetoric. (But this is an atheist speaking.) It didn't seem to have a lot of substance, but I think it was only trying to show how Sept. 11 and "modern times" are impacting religious peoples' beliefs in the "apocalypse." As with any religion, I think most of Christianity's followers are reasonably sane and rational, but it's the minority, consisting of passionate and zealous nutters that ruin it for everyone.

(That article is online here (http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020701/story.html) , by the way)

My favorite paragraph:

The books were enough to persuade Sandra Keathley, a Boeing employee in Wichita, Kans., not to buy Microsoft's Windows XP, because she has heard rumors that it carries a method of tracking e-mail. (In fact, the software had an instant-messaging bug that was later fixed.) If the Antichrist were to come, she fears, "and you want to contact another Christian, they could see that, trace it."

Hey, loony ultra-right Christians are OK in my book after all! :)

Alex

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by alex_ant


My favorite paragraph:

The books were enough to persuade Sandra Keathley, a Boeing employee in Wichita, Kans., not to buy Microsoft's Windows XP, because she has heard rumors that it carries a method of tracking e-mail. (In fact, the software had an instant-messaging bug that was later fixed.) If the Antichrist were to come, she fears, "and you want to contact another Christian, they could see that, trace it."

Hey, loony ultra-right Christians are OK in my book after all! :)

Alex

As Bill Gates is the anti-christ there is some basis in that statement.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by asurace


As Bill Gates is the anti-christ there is some basis in that statement.

bill gates is not cool enough to be the anti-christ... :D

[drastik]

The Constitution says seperate Church and State, Period. Religious affairs have no place in the day to day running of the nation nor in the rules of law. Sorry to be so blunt with it, but its true.

For the record here are some other bend no rules that are getting bent lately:
Freedom of Speech: Office of Misinformation anyone?
Search and Siezure: No rights for you kiddies, not in this War.
2nd Amendment: Yes, I am a gun rights supporter. I think you should have to pass basic inteeligence tests as well as psycological profiles to have them, though. On the other hand, cops don't have to do this testing either.

I really don't want to get into this, but it makes me mad. I don't think that anyone should be condemed for their religious beliefs, but the only way to eradicate condemnation is to not endorse any religion. As for "In God we Trust, etc." The founding fathers were predominatly Diest, which means that they believed that God created all this, but has no preserving interest in our day to day lives. I could get into that.

[drastik]

You see, they shouldn't give me a gun because I can't spell well enough.:D

[drastik]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Perhaps you could [try to] explain how the church can allow child mollesting priests... Also, how about the way they just shift them from one community to another (without telling anyone)?? It was all over the news up here in MA recently. It's also not the first time that this type of thing has been in the news.

Yeah, its still n the news down here in Nashville,too. Of course I lived in Boston for a few years, so I can relate. Cardinal Law has no problem running his mouth.

[drastik]

hey, look at that!!
I'm a regular man now. I am not crazy, I am a regular man. Wierd forum to cross 100 though.:D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by drastik
hey, look at that!!
I'm a regular man now. I am not crazy, I am a regular man. Wierd forum to cross 100 though.:D

congrats...now you are on the hit list of the boss of windows xp, the anti christ bill gates:p

[iGav]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlphaTech


bill gates is not cool enough to be the anti-christ... :D [/QUOTE

Heh heh heh :p this is so very true.....

Unfortunately the Christian Church is seriously ******** up...... and always has been.......!!

[sturm375]

The book of Revelations was Cannonized (meaning put into the modern bible) 300 years after being written, with the express condition that it Not be taken literally. That was the reason that it took 300 years to cannonize. The fear was that people would take the images in this book literally and prepare for the end of the world. Armegeddon for instance will not happen, at least not in this world. Jesus will not come ridding on a bloodied horse to lead the battles. These are all metaphores. This is what I have learned from hearing from a world leader in Biblical Archeology(sp?). I can't remember his name right now.

I am a Christian, a true "born again" Christian. However I understand, unlike most others who claim to be Christian on TV, that the Bible, is a book, not the "Word of God." To treat a book that way is too similar to the "Golden Calf", and is expressly forbidden by my God. Don't get me wrong, it is a great teaching tool, and a very effective way to lead you to the path of Christ, but it is not "Holy." The only thing I recoginize as Holy, is God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), nothing else!

As for the Pledge contriversy:
It is true, at least as far as I can tell, that the 1954 Congressional bill to add the words: "Under God" was unconstitutional. However I think it was wrong to ban the use, or reciting the Pledge in those 9 states.

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by iGAV
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlphaTech


bill gates is not cool enough to be the anti-christ... :D [/QUOTE

Heh heh heh :p this is so very true.....

Unfortunately the Christian Church is seriously ******** up...... and always has been.......!!
church is fckd up because of idiots in and outside of it

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by sturm375
Armegeddon for instance will not happen, at least not in this world. Jesus will not come ridding on a bloodied horse to lead the battles. These are all metaphores.
Can you imagine how cool it would be though if Jesus came back on a bloodied horse? Just imagine waking up one morning to a black sky and rivers of blood and exclusive live coverage of Jesus riding his horse on CNN. It would be, like, bigger than a Beatles reunion, with John and George back from the dead...

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Can you imagine how cool it would be though if Jesus came back on a bloodied horse? Just imagine waking up one morning to a black sky and rivers of blood and exclusive live coverage of Jesus riding his horse on CNN. It would be, like, bigger than a Beatles reunion, with John and George back from the dead...

You know, I could see it happening, but it would be an iron horse... Having him ride down on a blood red tricked out Harley... :D

[krossfyter]

you are conceptualy correct alpha.


its known to most theologians ...and its my belief as well... that Jesus is going to come back as a warrior.... like a lion. his first entrance was as a lamb....next it will be like a lion with fire etc. etc. you get the point.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by sturm375
The book of Revelations was Cannonized (meaning put into the modern bible) 300 years after being written, with the express condition that it Not be taken literally. That was the reason that it took 300 years to cannonize. The fear was that people would take the images in this book literally and prepare for the end of the world. Armegeddon for instance will not happen, at least not in this world. Jesus will not come ridding on a bloodied horse to lead the battles. These are all metaphores. This is what I have learned from hearing from a world leader in Biblical Archeology(sp?). I can't remember his name right now.

I am a Christian, a true "born again" Christian. However I understand, unlike most others who claim to be Christian on TV, that the Bible, is a book, not the "Word of God." To treat a book that way is too similar to the "Golden Calf", and is expressly forbidden by my God. Don't get me wrong, it is a great teaching tool, and a very effective way to lead you to the path of Christ, but it is not "Holy." The only thing I recoginize as Holy, is God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), nothing else!

As for the Pledge contriversy:
It is true, at least as far as I can tell, that the 1954 Congressional bill to add the words: "Under God" was unconstitutional. However I think it was wrong to ban the use, or reciting the Pledge in those 9 states.






there are many sides to the literal or symbolic meaning of the bible. i think its both...but i cannot begin to tell who some details only concepts because im mainly a conceptual understanding person.
i think armegeddon is not a war....but is more like the area in which the enemies will gather to destroy Isreal...thats the real armegeddon... i beleive.

we are seeing the begining of it now i guess. ...somethings happening. the bible does for sure talk about how all these countries will rise up against Isreal/Jerusalem. we see it now how there are a lot of people vehemetly against Isreal and call for its destruction.

[jefhatfield]

i am an engineer and a christian so i have a unique perspective

time is realtive...see einstein

when jesus got crucified, he said he would be back...two days later he was, then he left the earth plane again but said he would be back

in the grand scheme of things that could be two days later or two hundred thousand years later...it does not matter to jesus, god of the universe

time is not a barrier to jesus as he proclaimed, "before abraham was, i am" stating that he has command over space and time (the contiuum) and that the code of "i am" means that he is messiah and god

jesus will come when he wants and no fundamentalist or jehovah witness will ever be able to second guess christ...the bible specifically says that christians should not waste their time saying that he is coming here or coming then or there...etc

if god wanted to come yesterday, he can since time is his to command...i know this sounds esoteric, but look into einstein and it will all make sense

[krossfyter]

great respnose jethatfield.


yeah... to God 1000 years is like a day.

this concept is exactly what einstein hit upon.

i know no one can know exactly when Jesus is comming back.. the day or the hour etc. etc. but he did give us signs to know when its near. we can know for sure but we can know how close we are i guess.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter
great respnose jethatfield.


yeah... to God 1000 years is like a day.

this concept is exactly what einstein hit upon.

i know no one can know exactly when Jesus is comming back.. the day or the hour etc. etc. but he did give us signs to know when its near. we can know for sure but we can know how close we are i guess.

and this is where armchair theology buffs like me like to guess and my guess is that jesus will come to earth in the future sometime...how's that?

well, he will come after the formation of israel...but when?

in the last days, things will be chaotic...but when were things not chaotic?

weather patterns and natural disasters will be haywire...but when have things been calm?...it just makes one have to have faith all times

and with faith comes happiness and that's what god wants for the whole world

[krossfyter]

well yeah.

however heres why i think its really close though... could mean 7 years or 40 years or 100 but...

isreals enemies are comming out of the wood works....

this hasnt happened before.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter
well yeah.

however heres why i think its really close though... could mean 7 years or 40 years or 100 but...

isreals enemies are comming out of the wood works....

this hasnt happened before.

this is true

one thing that has plagued manikind for a long time has been a universal hatred toward the jews...i think it is more of a jealosy because they are god's chosen people

keep in mind god loves all equally, but the jews are god's home base for his ministry to the world...therefore, the chosen people of god...jesus was a jew

[krossfyter]

heres something that for some reason im not clear on.... you said that the Jews are Gods homebase for his ministry.... if so then how does that fit in with the fact that most of them are secular? i know they are Gods choosen people though...because thats a basic bible school concpet but yeah...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter
heres something that for some reason im not clear on.... you said that the Jews are Gods homebase for his ministry.... if so then how does that fit in with the fact that most of them are secular? i know they are Gods choosen people though...because thats a basic bible school concpet but yeah...

throughout the many years covered in the old testament, the nation of israel had periods of being religious and periods of non-religious activity

sometimes isreal would be in god's favor and other times would not be but the overall goal was to teach that nation an object lesson...that god will never leave them

the old testament is mostly a historical account of isreal seen by its writers and their interpretation of how god had a relationship with that nation

true to form for that area of the world, it was written in the context of a brutal culture often at war with others and even amongst themselves...so the relationship with god may or may not have been a priority during different times in their history

there are jews who believe in jesus just like there are gentiles who believe the same but in reality, i don't think that the world's gentiles are really anymore aware of the teachings of christianity than the jews

some think that israel will be blind to christianity because of having rejected jesus in general but the things done in the name of christianity have generally been so horrid that it is amazing anybody still believes in god

if loving god and loving your neighbor is what christ has said is the entire crux of his mission, then christianity as practiced by the human race in history has committed more heinous acts than any group in the history of the world

that is why i believe in the separation of church and state because politics, with its inherent use of violence coupled with greed, has a way of twisting religion into something it was not intended to be

in the movie 'touch', tom arnold plays a right wing nazi type character who resembles the christian right wing and everything that has been wrong with the church, and is in conflict with the christ like character, who is peaceful and non-political

in the movie, tom arnold is scheming against the christ like character and somehow ends up hurt

in the end, the christ like character heals tom arnold and the scene in the movie is one of the most intensely spiritual things i have ever seen and sums up what i think christianity should have been

i heard a famous speaker last sunday, moishe rosen, who is founder of jews for jesus, and he said that it is not natural for man to follow god...but that man has to be prompted by the holy spirit

so if it is not in our nature to seek god, then it is in our nature to probably be aggresive/greedy and that explains to me why christianity has been so violent becuase it was a religion run by men and their inherent nature

if the church, catholics and protestants, were run by people guided by the holy spirit, then chistianity would come across as a much more peaceful entity

so when america says that its a christian nation better than the muslims and the plo, then why did we exterminate the native americans? then why did we have slavery?

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by jefhatfield




if loving god and loving your neighbor is what christ has said is the entire crux of his mission, then christianity as practiced by the human race in history has committed more heinous acts than any group in the history of the world





correct me if im wrong but i think Jesus's mission was a combonation of important acts which also inlude the very important one being to free the human race....not just telling us to love each other...which is equally as important... i know some folks that say ones more important than the other...but i dont want to go there.

Also the reason why i think christianity has committed more of these heinous acts than any other group in history shows you how much satan is trying to bring down the truth. He hits the truth hard and makes the truth sayers seem like very bad men. Thats not an excuse ...just an intresting perspective that you may not be noticing.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter




correct me if im wrong but i think Jesus's mission was a combonation of important acts which also inlude the very important one being to free the human race....not just telling us to love each other...which is equally as important... i know some folks that say ones more important than the other...but i dont want to go there.

Also the reason why i think christianity has committed more of these heinous acts than any other group in history shows you how much satan is trying to bring down the truth. He hits the truth hard and makes the truth sayers seem like very bad men. Thats not an excuse ...just an intresting perspective that you may not be noticing.

that kind of sounds like, "the devil made me do it" the human race with all its flaws are capable enough to sin all by themselves, thus our need for a perfect one like christ to bail us all out

[krossfyter]

noo jet... think about it...


why attack the false doctinre members? they are doing fine from satans persepctive.

what makes you think that satan wont or cant make christianity look like the wrost religion on earth? im not saying that christians as individuals arent except for the wrong they have done though. im sure they should take full responsibility. but honestly what makes you think all this crusade business hasnt been blown way out of porportion? i know theyve done wrong but how much wrong is up in the air. how can one prove one group in history has done more wrong then the other? i wouldnt want to go there.

[jefhatfield]

many movements that were wrong in christianity don't need satan to look bad, they look bad all by themselves

by putting satan into the mix is a convenient way to absolve human guilt

when the human race makes a mistake within religion or outside of it, those people should take responsibility and make amends

there is no doubt that satan has a role of evil within the world, but when the apostle paul wrote letters to the regional churches with his grievances against them, not once did he mention that satan made them go astray...he attributed any wrongs within those regional churches to basic human failings

[krossfyter]

okay understood jet.


amends and guilt should happen. they should take resposibility. however i just think satan and his croonies do a HELL of a job of screwing crap up. more is at work then the average theoligion thinks.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by krossfyter
more is at work then the average theoligion thinks.

Who said theologians think???

For that matter, since when has the church made amends for any wrong doings?? How about the child molesting priests?? All they seemed to have done [at least in the past] is shuffle them from one area to another... and not bother to inform the people where they move him to.

[I wonder which side will start blasting for that first :D:D]

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


Who said theologians think???

For that matter, since when has the church made amends for any wrong doings?? How about the child molesting priests?? All they seemed to have done [at least in the past] is shuffle them from one area to another... and not bother to inform the people where they move him to.

[I wonder which side will start blasting for that first :D:D]



lol. true! somewhat.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by krossfyter
lol. true! somewhat.

Somewhat your ass... :eek: :eek: :D

Anyone else notice that the bible is the oldest piece of fiction in print that also passes itself off as fact?? At least all the christian zealots swear that it is true... :rolleyes: Poor, pathetic, foolish mortals...:rolleyes: :cool: :D

[krossfyter]

somewhat my a**

thanks for the love!

no i dont agree the bible is fiction never will.

once you accept Jesus as truth...you wont believe its fiction.

but i respect your view...please respect mine if possible.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


S Poor, pathetic, foolish mortals...:rolleyes: :cool: :D


realtive comments in the hizzouse!

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


Who said theologians think???

For that matter, since when has the church made amends for any wrong doings?? How about the child molesting priests?? All they seemed to have done [at least in the past] is shuffle them from one area to another... and not bother to inform the people where they move him to.

[I wonder which side will start blasting for that first :D:D]

1) read CS Lewis if you have not already...he was a great thinking man's theologian

2) the catholic church is considering actually taking priests out of commission instead of merely transferring them...about time i say

3) off topic, but i saw a road king...too cool...he he

[krossfyter]

c.s. lewis is awsome. i have collected and read most of his non fiction works. great stuff jet.