techies smarter than suits

[jefhatfield]

i live in a military town with two bases...once there were three but fort ord went to washington state (ft lewis)

i notice the enlisted men and women i meet are more intelligent than the officers i meet most of the time...the enlisted go to the defense language institute and are chosen from the top 2 percent on test scores and the officers who go to naval postgraduate school do not have to meet such a tight requirement...so that may explain it

but in the techie world, where i have been for three years, regular grunt techies seem to be much more intelligent than the cio's they work for who often have no clue on techincal issues

is this the case where you work at if you are a techie?

it just seems like cio's should be at least techies with business backgrounds, not just a businesshead with no tech experience as seems to be the case much of the time in silicon valley, which is seen much more as a business than as a place for innovation like it once was when the "big" money was not such a factor

what do you think?

[eyelikeart]

I think that's how it always goes. It's always the geniuses I've encountered who aren't doing ***** with themselves as opposed to the jackasses who are in high power positions. I hope I don't hit any nerves with anyone here, as I mean not to offend in any way nor make a complete generalization. :D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
I think that's how it always goes. It's always the geniuses I've encountered who aren't doing ***** with themselves as opposed to the jackasses who are in high power positions. I hope I don't hit any nerves with anyone here, as I mean not to offend in any way nor make a complete generalization. :D

i am almost 40 and i have never met someone i would call a genius in a "high" position in business, civil service, self employed, or the military/police but i would say that clinton, from the accounts i have read and heard, is close

but i have never met clinton

but i have met tons of slacker geniuses though...he he

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


i am almost 40 and i have never met someone i would call a genius in a "high" position in business, civil service, self employed, or the military/police but i would say that clinton, from the accounts i have read and heard, is close

but i have never met clinton

but i have met tons of slacker geniuses though...he he

a lot of corporate bosses i have met are good politicians and know how not to rock the boat, and they know how to dress well and look confident, yet smarts is not high on their lists...but companies cannot survive without middle and upper management

many officers i have met in the military and cops i have seen on the street are basically joe dirt types with short haircuts...they are basically mullets in hiding...good workers though and never one to question authority..but we still need them

geniuses and people with iq's over 100, 120, 140, or whatever, have their place in society, too but thinking too much and too innovatively is not a trait of a leader in the military, police, or large corporation...it works best for college students and teachers/professors/researchers

[Dignan]

So, this is what I think about what you are saying...

Leaders of companys need to be smart, but not THAT smart. What they do need are people skills. Lots of the genius techies probably freeze up in social situations. These ceos and presidents have to make deals, they have to understand what their client wants, and they have to know how to get what they want. So it may not just be technical knowledge, but being business savvy, getting what you want while pleasing others. I would rather have the ceo of my company know how to convince someone into a merger than know alot about unix or the capital of a country in south america. Know what I mean?

[edesignuk]

This thread is sooooo true!
Man, most of the management at my work don't know a thing, they totally rely on us for everything.
Verry annoying since they're the ones making all the money while were doing all the work and keeping all the kit ticking over.
But that's just how things are I guess, shame though...

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
geniuses and people with iq's over 100, 120, 140, or whatever, have their place in society, too but thinking too much and too innovatively is not a trait of a leader in the military, police, or large corporation...it works best for college students and teachers/professors/researchers

I have some friends who I label "just ******** brilliant"...but when it comes to making good decisions for themselves...they just don't...

there's a degree of slacker in everyone I feel...whether it's physical or mental...but we all have the trait in us...

as for the IQ part...it's the ones whom I've encountered with higher ones who normally do not think outside of the box...but I have a really good friend who's in the higher rank scoring...who doesn't know how to keep his head out of the clouds... ;)

[Durandal7]

Yes, as far as I've experienced this is all true. Believe me Jef, not even researchers are above dumbass management. My brother and his wife are researchers and they both get stuck with idiot bosses.

[jefhatfield]

and i look at apple

woz was the genius, jobs was less intelligent but he was the wheeler dealer and in my book, they both played a vital role

it's like the lakers (here's a sports analogy)

kobe is the genius talent getting the ball down in the zone but shaq, with less talent but with the height, dunks or does the easier layups if he gets open...the lakers needed both to win their championship

and even thought kobe has the better talent, as shaq freely admits, shaq gets the higher point totals

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Dignan
So, this is what I think about what you are saying...
I would rather have the ceo of my company know how to convince someone into a merger than know alot about unix or the capital of a country in south america. Know what I mean?

i was referring to cio...chief information officer...who usually falls after the chief financial officer who reports to the chief operating or chief executive officer or president or owner of an organization

in smaller companies where i live, all those people are the same person, usually named jed/jebidiah with their dog as the vice president:p

but i hear you..many of the best techies i know freeze up...too much info going thru those thought pipes:p

[Durandal7]

All this talk about IQs makes me want to find out where I stand. Anyone know of an online test (if there are any)?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by asurace
All this talk about IQs makes me want to find out where I stand. Anyone know of an online test (if there are any)?

just look up iq

...and if you score high, you will never be boss:p ;) :D

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


just look up iq

...and if you score high, you will never be boss:p ;) :D

I hope I score below 80, then I can be CEO of a company ;)

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by asurace


I hope I score below 80, then I can be CEO of a company ;)

hmm...well u can work a Mac...so u got something going for u... ;)

anyway...I wonder how long it'll be before everyone starts comparing notes again...he he he :D

[Durandal7]

I'll have to try to find a site another time. I found one and took the test and then it informed that to get the results I had to pay $20. The next one I took told me I had an IQ of 125, it also said it had a 20 point margin of error in either direction. Basically all I know is that I have an IQ between 100 and 150.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by asurace
All this talk about IQs makes me want to find out where I stand. Anyone know of an online test (if there are any)?

there's a decent one on www.emode.com (http://www.emode.com)

[Durandal7]

Thanks eye, that was a good website. I guess I wont be a boss anytime soon ;) . But hey the other site was right, it WAS between 100 and 150 :p .

[ShaolinMiddleFinger]

Well, here's my take on the whole thing. I think the head honchos used to know how but eventually forget how be techies. I've experienced this because my boss showed me how to do everything at work but now all hell breaks loose when I'm not around. Kind of weird but I think the bigger you get, the more dependent you are on everyone else

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by asurace
Thanks eye, that was a good website. I guess I wont be a boss anytime soon ;) . But hey the other site was right, it WAS between 100 and 150 :p .

no problem...

my 2 scores from online testing were 126 & 143...so that averages to be about a 135?

[Durandal7]

Hmm, I got a 128. I don't think I'll bother to take it again. Pretty soon, we'll have an IQ contest going on in this thread :rolleyes: .

[Nipsy]

I spent a while in a CTO position for a firm of 175.

Previous to this I was a programming lead.

What I found was that suggestions I made to reduce spending (buying a copy of WebTrends, instead of paying SurfWatch $1700 a month; hiring two 100k/year IT superstars, ending our 300k/year outsourcing contract, etc.) were negated by relationships and loyalties. Everything I was thinking paid higher to company employees, yet lowered total costs.

Salesman X from firm Y was in a fraternity with manager A from dept B. The company was pouring 600k a year down the drain. The CFO was the only one who supported me. Sadly, the industry was publishing, and loyalties in publishing mean more than $. In the end, I went back to consulting, since being outsourced meant that people would listen to the opinions they were buying.

Business is a funny animal...

[mcrain]

A bunch of techies with an inferiority complex... LMAO!

Just cause the suits don't do the tech stuff doesn't mean they are less smart. In fact, I'd venture a guess that it is far more likely that they could do what you do, than you could do what they do.:confused:

[Rower_CPU]

It's interesting also if you look back at people's college careers.

Frat boys are spending time networking and developing people skills that count more in the "real world" than good grades.

The nerd in his dorm room may graduate Summa Cum Laude, but he will almost never be a CEO or other highly social person.

Ballmer is one exception I can think of, he apparently graduated with honors from Business school at Harvard (I think).

Where am I going with this? I don't know.:D

Nerds, study less and party more! It will help you more in the long run...


emode.com says my IQ is 131...whatever that's good for!:p

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
It's interesting also if you look back at people's college careers.

Frat boys are spending time networking and developing people skills that count more in the "real world" than good grades.

The nerd in his dorm room may graduate Summa Cum Laude, but he will almost never be a CEO or other highly social person.

Ballmer is one exception I can think of, he apparently graduated with honors from Business school at Harvard (I think).

Where am I going with this? I don't know.:D

Nerds, study less and party more! It will help you more in the long run...


emode.com says my IQ is 131...whatever that's good for!:p

ballmer got his math degree instead of being a founder of microsoft and he lost out on many billions...he is still very wealthy though...in essence, his degree and refusal to be a founder cost him some tens of billions...instead he has a piece of paper from harvard

fratenity people have networking skills which help in other non techie fields and there is much more money to be made in non techie fields...many fraternity kids never graduate from school so the mix of beer, ecstacy, meth, and dope is a risky proposition to a full load of classes

for my chosen field of IT, i would personally go with the nerds, but like i said, technology follows behind tourism, agriculture, manufacturing, construction, etc. etc. etc. in terms of profit so the networking sales type people (fraternity people) have the edge on more jobs, degree or no degree

[DavPeanut]

emode said 135, and iqtest.com said 181. IQtest.com is way off. I took a real IQ test with a phyciatrist (at Johns Hopkins, long story) and i got around 140. Plus, I know I smart from my 800 on the Math section of the SAT in 8th grade. I also went to a magnet middle school and was accepted into the high school equivelent. I was on the only middle school team in the country (thats out of 100) in the highest level math competition for high school in the country (USA) and my team got 30th place. I was the captain of the team. I also have placed highly in about a bizilion other competitions, and I cant put up any more awards in my room because my walls are full, even though its 12 by 12. Did I mention the fact that I wrote an 20 page essay and did a 15 minute presentation about quasars at age 13. It was the best project out of 18 of the countries smartest 13 to 17 year olds. I'm smart, and you cant say I'm not.

[Ifeelbloated]

You should read up on Jungian psychology and the theory of multiple intelligences. It's quite fascinating and in my opinion, gospel. You should also look into the Keirsey test or MBTI(Meyer's and Brigg's Temperament Indicator) test which shows which kind of temperaments are predisposed for certain vocations. For example, why a person who makes a good politician a lousy car mechanic and vice versa.
I've noticed that people who are good at networking and just plain 'brown-nosing', coupled with getting the job done of course, enjoy the graces of the higher-ups in a company. Whereas, the stoic and taciturn techs with their "geek talk" just are tolerated. Even looked on as weird.
I've made up a saying to sum this up.
People don't like dumb people. People don't like smart people. People like nice people.
It's just human nature.

[MacUser1]

Originally posted by DavPeanut
emode said 135, and iqtest.com said 181. IQtest.com is way off. I took a real IQ test with a phyciatrist (at Johns Hopkins, long story) and i got around 140. Plus, I know I smart from my 800 on the Math section of the SAT in 8th grade. I also went to a magnet middle school and was accepted into the high school equivelent. I was on the only middle school team in the country (thats out of 100) in the highest level math competition for high school in the country (USA) and my team got 30th place. I was the captain of the team. I also have placed highly in about a bizilion other competitions, and I cant put up any more awards in my room because my walls are full, even though its 12 by 12. Did I mention the fact that I wrote an 20 page essay and did a 15 minute presentation about quasars at age 13. It was the best project out of 18 of the countries smartest 13 to 17 year olds. I'm smart, and you cant say I'm not.
Well according to this thread, you definitely won't become a CEO.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by MacUser1

Well according to this thread, you definitely won't become a CEO.

actually the original intent of this thread was to show that after three years of being a techie, the chief information officers i met were more like politicians, cpas, or mbas than technicians or engineers

sure there are some exceptions, but to be a leader of any department, you must be a manager and a businessman and almost every techie i have met do not have that temperament and would rather work with servers and motherboards than with balance sheets and coporate reports

cio's and engineer/techies have very different skill sets due to one being a budget administrator and the other being a gearhead

and in the end, both are necessary in a large company

people who have the skill to read budgets equally well as get excited over wafer processing are about as common as hippie poets who are also f1 race car drivers

i do know one such individual and he was also a satanist and born again christian during the same year once...it takes all types to make the world tick

[mcrain]

Originally posted by DavPeanut
I'm smart, and you cant say I'm not.

Of course I can say you're not.

But, in reality, you have some natural ability, but we'll see what you do with it when you grow up. Until then, just remember, I personally know far more brilliant savants who failed than succeeded.

[sneed]

Over the years, I have known a few suits that I would categorize as pretty bright. I even knew a CTO that, beyond having a good tech background, was very bright.

The question I have is just how bright are techies, if all that is keeping them from fame and fortune is a few social graces (if in fact that is true)? I mean, comparitively speaking, isn't grooming, glad-handing, and a little business sense pretty easy to master?

Of course, I'm writing this from home, in the middle of the day, wearing ratty cargo shorts and an old Texaco t-shirt, so what do I know?

[Eliot]

Alright, who's done the GMAT and how did you do, scores and percentiles?

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Eliot
Alright, who's done the GMAT and how did you do, scores and percentiles?

Sorry...GRE here...

[resm]

emode tells me 122 and I am a German Shepperd :p

does this make me a smart dog ?? :D

oh yeah....and I am an "inspired inventor".....woahhh...life looks bright ! :)

and..."more than 60% of inspired inventors sleep in the nude" !

damn...where is this hidden camera ???? :confused: :D

[Eliot]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Sorry...GRE here...

You say GRE, I say GMAT (which Wharton seemed happy enough with), I say tomato, you say potatoe, let's call the whole thing off.

Anyway, to get back to my question, ...................

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by sneed
Over the years, I have known a few suits that I would categorize as pretty bright. I even knew a CTO that, beyond having a good tech background, was very bright.

The question I have is just how bright are techies, if all that is keeping them from fame and fortune is a few social graces (if in fact that is true)? I mean, comparitively speaking, isn't grooming, glad-handing, and a little business sense pretty easy to master?

Of course, I'm writing this from home, in the middle of the day, wearing ratty cargo shorts and an old Texaco t-shirt, so what do I know?

from my background as a techie, dot.com vp, hr person, and defense department computer guy; one has to realize that CTOs are taken from the ranks of business types, accountants, MBAs, and such

a techie could move into increasingly higher pay and supervisory type positions but an engineer rarely turns into a businessman or corporate politician overnight...and in most cases rarely does

if a CTO is what you want, my humle suggestion is have a bachelor's or master's in business, management, or accounting (a cpa or controller job on the resume is a big plus since a CTO is a budget manager)

it is also good for a CIO or CTO to have some knowledge of technical lingo to be able to communicate with his/her department but being a technician or engineer is not necessary

the skills of being an engineer and corporate accounting budget manager of millions or billions of dollars are two completely different skills so adjust your training accordingly and see which one fits your temperament

while carly fiornia has her degrees in history and business, she has been a businesswoman all her life and she is a very sharp analyst of the business statement and corporate strategy...and now she is the CEO of hp-compaq...she is not an MSEE who spent twenty years designing motherboards or an expert programmer

too many techies and engineers fail at budgetory management positions because they are gearheads and not accountants...when slinging around motherboards and scripts is your job, then do it and do it well

but when dealing with spreadsheet numbers and being able to squeeze money from the CEO and board members without being too shy or aggressive is your job, then have years of experience and knowledge in that

personal skills are just as important as accounting skills and a longtime engineer cannot become a CTO, CIO, controller, chief purchasing agent, COO, or CEO all of a sudden because of a few night classes in business leading to an MBA

in all the years of growing up in northern california and seeing almost everybody i know be in high tech at one time or another, i have come to a simple conclusion about silicon valley after forty years, "either be a techie or be a suit" and don't try to tread middle ground on this because you will end up doing a terrible job at both *unless you are one of those super rare people who can do everything

michael jordan made the egotistical mistake of thinking that he could just enter professional baseball in his 30s after having been a successful professional basketball player

what made him think that he could compete against talented baseball people who spent all of their childhood, college, farm system, and pro career in the majors?

if you are doing your job as a techie and you get to wear a casual attire, all the more power to you...at least where i come from, we like to think that we invented the no tie look thus distinguishing ourselves from the suits..he he

and i will mention it again, without the suits, and corporate management with their accounting and management skills, us techies would not have anybody selling our gear

as i have done many times on this site before, i am more than willing to review your resume and help you tailor a techie or suit resume targeted at your short or long term goals...i did this for the army for thousands of soldiers and helped them re-enter the civilian work force...i also have a gift of gab and knowing how to make your skills fit almost any job ad....sometimes leaving stuff out on your resume is just as important as including duties and tasks that will catch the eye of the usually technically illiterate human resources professional

just send me your info in the private mailbox and good luck in your career

;)

[Zenith]

You keep talking about GRE, GMAT, SAT, etc... What the h*ll is those things?! I'm a poor norwegian and don't understand :p

Also, I got 120 from emode.com, but I didn't understand some of the questions based on my english skills... Does it count if you use more or less time on emode.com? If so, I would have done better if the test was in norwegian. ;)

I used to read encyclopedias as a hobby when I was five, and I know I'm smart, but it is my musical skills that makes me feel a bit superior in this case... Right now I'm one of the three best piano players in my country at my age. We also got the world's best piano player in Norway too; Leif Ove Andsnes. Ever heard of him? He's great (of course) and has a brilliant technique, but he's a classical piano player. I'm a jazzpianist... Allthough I don't play so much traditional jazz I do play a lot modern jazz, and haven't been playing jazz for more than three years. It's a whole new world to me.

[jefhatfield]

stay with music if you are good and especially if you can read and write well...i hope to see you on television a few years from now

the gmat, gre, and lsat are entrance exam tests into various graduate schools in the states...most of us who went to grad school have to take them unless

1) you got a 3.5 out of 4.0 grade point average in your last two years of undergraduate school

or

2) the particular graduate school program, like the one i went to passes over the test in favor of post grad foundation classes *in some cases, the entrance exam and foundation classes are required for some students

what makes the entrance exams so difficult is that most of the material is stuff many of us have not seen in ten years so a lot of people have to study up before they take those entrance exams

in many cases, the entrance exams are just mere formalities, but to get into an elite business, grad, or law program like (stanford or usc where i live in california), a good entrance exam score is just as important as grade point average

you also need tons of money and having a parent of sibling have gone to that school (legacy admissions) is a huge plus

in america, the goal is to put the college money into the undergraduate programs and to provide quality education to as many people as possible

but master's degree programs, law programs, and phd programs incl MDs, cater to only 7%, 1%, and 1% of the general population, respectively, so making it hard to get into graduate school is a must

[Zenith]

Thanks for the info, jefhatfield! Actually, I'm off to get my master's degree in Trondheim the next four years now... ;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Zenith
Thanks for the info, jefhatfield! Actually, I'm off to get my master's degree in Trondheim the next four years now... ;)

and when you are a professor, if that's where you go, then come to the states and teach me how to sight read effectively on my guitar

i have been playing for over 26 years by ear and i want to one day take jazz band class at the college but they require harmony, counterpoint, basic piano, and two semesters of composing:(

[Zenith]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


and when you are a professor, if that's where you go, then come to the states and teach me how to sight read effectively on my guitar

i have been playing for over 26 years by ear and i want to one day take jazz band class at the college but they require harmony, counterpoint, basic piano, and two semesters of composing:(

oh... 26 years is a lot! I'm only 19, and have been playing for 19 years :)

As for the jazz band class, I'm certain it's worth it. I mean, if you have the time to do the harmony, counterpoint, basic piano, and the two semesters of composing, then you should go for it. I've never understood music better than after three years with jazz. I went to a specific high school with weight on musical education and got all the theoretic training i needed to analyze, understand, to play and compose music. Now, when I'm heading for the conservatorium of music, I'm in a position where I can just build upon the knowledge I already got and expand. I think it's important to learn as much as possible at a young age, because the mind learns faster and remember more easily. I'm not assuming there's an age limit when it comes to musical learing, but if you live and breathe for music as I am, go and take those classes. ;)

Also, a jazz band class seems like a good class to me. When you've got the chance to play with other musicians, I mean.

[bonehead]

emode said 135, and iqtest.com said 181. IQtest.com is way off. I took a real IQ test with a phyciatrist (at Johns Hopkins, long story) and i got around 140. Plus, I know I smart from my 800 on the Math section of the SAT in 8th grade. I also went to a magnet middle school and was accepted into the high school equivelent. I was on the only middle school team in the country (thats out of 100) in the highest level math competition for high school in the country (USA) and my team got 30th place. I was the captain of the team. I also have placed highly in about a bizilion other competitions, and I cant put up any more awards in my room because my walls are full, even though its 12 by 12. Did I mention the fact that I wrote an 20 page essay and did a 15 minute presentation about quasars at age 13. It was the best project out of 18 of the countries smartest 13 to 17 year olds. I'm smart, and you cant say I'm not.

DAVPeanut:

I'm sure you're filled with much more academic knowledge than most people in the world. If that's what you mean by smart then smart you are. But have you ever been in love? Have you ever had your heart broken? Have you ever felt the rush of joy and emotion from seeing your newborn baby? Have you had to deal with the death of a loved one? You're super-intelligent, no doubt about it, and I hope you do great work that makes the world a better place but there's more to life and being human than understanding quasars in junior high.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by DavPeanut
emode said 135, and iqtest.com said 181. IQtest.com is way off. I took a real IQ test with a phyciatrist (at Johns Hopkins, long story) and i got around 140. Plus, I know I smart from my 800 on the Math section of the SAT in 8th grade. I also went to a magnet middle school and was accepted into the high school equivelent. I was on the only middle school team in the country (thats out of 100) in the highest level math competition for high school in the country (USA) and my team got 30th place. I was the captain of the team. I also have placed highly in about a bizilion other competitions, and I cant put up any more awards in my room because my walls are full, even though its 12 by 12. Did I mention the fact that I wrote an 20 page essay and did a 15 minute presentation about quasars at age 13. It was the best project out of 18 of the countries smartest 13 to 17 year olds. I'm smart, and you cant say I'm not.

i definitely recommend growing up as slowly as possible...do high school

i started college early when i was a sophomore in high school (iq 135/690 math sat), but i kept my social life normal by still doing double duty with high school until i graduated at 18...i got to go to the high school prom, i got to play sports, and i got to kiss a girl (all things precious to a then high school boy like me)

with your scores, you can definitely walk into an ivy right now, but you would feel alienated and find a hard time finding peers and a girlfriend

i have seen 12-14 year olds in college on track to becoming physicians or lawyers before they can be old enough to drink, but they missed out on their childhoods which you can only have once...after you turn 18, all the rules change and you are an adult...you can get tossed in prison, people could sue you, and you can get drafted to go fight an unwinnable war in afganistan

there is no hurry to grow up these days...your iq will stay with you and even go up a few points as you get older:)

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i definitely recommend growing up as slowly as possible...do high school

I have to say, based on your initial post, that you definately need to grow up. If you show up to high school, college, whatever, thinking you are the best thing since sliced bread, you will get your *ss handed to you on a silver platter.

The second you think you're so much better than everyone else, you've just showed your *ss to the world, and sorry, but you aren't that great. From my experiences, I can tell you that smart people who've failed are far more common than you could imagine.

Until you have done something with your life, you need to learn humility.

[digital1]

I agree with this thread. Makes a lot of sense...

[digital1]

I agree with the initial posts on this thread about corporate america not really understanding the tech of their business. This new thread about intullect I will stay nuetral. There are pros and cons.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mcrain


I have to say, based on your initial post, that you definately need to grow up. If you show up to high school, college, whatever, thinking you are the best thing since sliced bread, you will get your *ss handed to you on a silver platter.

The second you think you're so much better than everyone else, you've just showed your *ss to the world, and sorry, but you aren't that great. From my experiences, I can tell you that smart people who've failed are far more common than you could imagine.

Until you have done something with your life, you need to learn humility.

man, that is so true!!!

i had my ass handed to me on a silver platter when i left for college at 18

1) i had a strong sat score but when i went to college then i met three guys who got 1590s-1600 on the sat and these guys rocked

2) i was a pretty good tennis player but one of these nerd guys, who walked like herman munster and was a total non-jock, just cleaned my clock in tennis

he never served fast or rushed the net and he was ugly to look at with his rigomortis style, but he could hit those lines in one of the best baseline games i have ever seen
:p

[mmmdreg]

Originally posted by DavPeanut
I'm smart, and you cant say I'm not.
Seriously dude, a pointer in life: there's this thing called modesty..and showing off gets you nowhere...