IBM and NAZI GERMANY...The Savage Truth [Archive]

AlphaTech

Jul 4, 2002, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by firewire2001
this is sort of retarded... every single patriotic german that had a big company was involved in the war.. think about BMW -- have you ever wondered why jews dont buy cars from em (im jewish, so dont mess :p )... cause they were COMPLETELY in germany and they were run by patriotic germans that used labor from innocent ppl..

Why do you think I will only purchase American vehicles and NOT ones made in either Japan or Germany?? Being Jewish as well, I find it hard to send money over to Germany or to a German company. Similarly with Japanese car companies, I won't send them that much of my $$. I will purchase their Anime though, since those companies were not around during WW2, and they are [mostly] private companies. Either that, or the people that create the Anime, and come up with the stories/art are independant and artists. I give artists more leeway when it comes to things. ;) :D

groovebuster

Jul 4, 2002, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by firewire2001
welll duhh... if apple had a lot of its offices in germany run by patriotic germans it would have probably been involved in the war too..

this is sort of retarded... every single patriotic german that had a big company was involved in the war.. think about BMW -- have you ever wondered why jews dont buy cars from em (im jewish, so dont mess :p )... cause they were COMPLETELY in germany and they were run by patriotic germans that used labor from innocent ppl..

Sorry when I correct you about this... from a certain point on in the war a company couldn't choose anymore if it had to serve for the war or not. All the big companies by law HAD to produce goods for the war. The Nazi-Regime wasn't democratic, it was totalitarian. If you said something against it you could wait for the Gestapo to pick you up for your last trip... to a concentration camp. That's how Hitler was taking over a whole country with just 30% who voted for him... with tricks, propaganda and terror. He had never a majority behind him in Germany, but nobody dared to say anything...

BMW for instance was always building aircraft engines. Motor-cycles were just produced because after WWI Germany wasn't allowed to produce any kind of aircraft that could be used as a war plane. Civil aviation wasn't a subject at that time anyway, so they started to build motor-cycles and later on cars to survive economically...

Later in the war they had to produce also bomb-shells and stuff like that, but they didn't choose that, they didn't have a choice. And the nazis placed their own people at the important positions in the big companies over the years to avoid trouble when orders were given.

BTW... German patriotic != Nazi

My grand-father wasn't a Nazi but he was a patriot. My grand-ma told me that he wasn't agreeing with the ideology of the nazis, but he stayed a soldier anyway, because he didn't want Germany to fall into the hands of the other countries. He died in Stalingrad (Winter of 1942).

So the thing that jews don't drive BMWs is maybe popular for jews in the US, because they still live in the past and hate everything that's coming from Germany, but it is stupid. The companies from today don't have anything to do with companies from back then anymore anyway. Dude, it was 60 years ago...

Oh, and before I forget (just in case you tell me that I don't know what I am talking about)... my sister-in-law is jewish (yes, she got married to a German) and she is driving a BMW, her father does as well. Actually almost all the jews I ever met drove a Mercedes or a BMW... interesting, isn't it?

So before old prejudices pop up...

groovebuster

groovebuster

Jul 4, 2002, 04:36 PM

Here we go again Alpha! :D It seems like fate that our paths are crossing again and again! ;)

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Why do you think I will only purchase American vehicles and NOT ones made in either Japan or Germany?? Being Jewish as well, I find it hard to send money over to Germany or to a German company

Still living in the past??? What does a company from 2002 has to do with something that happened 60 years ago?

I will give you a little history lesson, since you told me that the engine of a new HD model was engineered by Porsche in Germany.

Hitler wanted to give mobility to the people, but the private companies like BMW and Merecedes for example were to expensive for the average consumer. So end of the 1930's he decided to build a cheap car for the masses in a factory run by the (nazi-)government. That was the birth of VOLKSWAGEN (translated: people's car or nation's car ... it is hard to translate it correctly).

That company/factory, located in Wolfsburg, had a team of engineers. The chief engineer was Dr. Ferdinand Porsche. They developed the Beetle, but it was never produced in bigger amounts because of the war and Volkswagen was building tanks and off-road vehicles for the military in the last few years of the war.

After the war the Germans needed mobility. The easiest way to provide it was to reactivate the old plans of the Beetle with Volkswagen, even it was an old plan by Hitler, why trashing it, when it is good? The rest (especially the success of the Beetle all over the world) is history.

But Dr. Ferdinand Porsche didn't feel like working again for Volkswagen, he was in the cross-fire to have been a big fan of Hitler and so the management of Volkswagen thought it would have been a bad idea to have him on the band waggon again.

So what did that guy do? He just founded another car company in the 50's... Porsche!!! Manufacturer of fine sport cars 'til today. It is not coincedence, that the 356 and the 911 are basically a Beetle in a sport dress. The construction principles (air-cooled engine in the rear and suff) was the same.

In the beginning Porsche was only doing development for Volkswagen, but when the money came rolling in, he started to build sport cars.

So Alpha... if there were car companies that were connected with the Nazis, then it is Volkswagen and Porsche. Since the engine of that one Harley is developed by Porsche you directly support an ex-Nazi-Company by buying a Harley!!!

Ooooooooops!!! ;)

I wonder which excuse you find this time. :D

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Similarly with Japanese car companies, I won't send them that much of my $$. I will purchase their Anime though, since those companies were not around during WW2, and they are [mostly] private companies. Either that, or the people that create the Anime, and come up with the stories/art are independant and artists. I give artists more leeway when it comes to things. ;) :D

That's how we know you... you always deliver the exceptions with the rule, because it is more comfortable that way. I bet if you would drive a german car one day you would find a similar excuse, although all germans are bad, especially german companies!

groovebuster

P.S.: Emagic is a german company as well, just purchased by Apple. As an upright jew you should stop using Apple computers now, they support the german economy by that. Oh, and never sit in a Boeing aircraft again... Mr. Böing was german immigrant and just felt like building airplanes after he emmigrated to North America... Since every german is a potential Nazi he maybe would have been one, if he would have stayed in Germany. Or did I mention the US american space program? No man on the moon without Werner von Braun, the constructor of the V2, he had a lot of jews at his working camps he ordered regularly from the concentration camps... I guess I start to become cynical... :(

groovebuster

Jul 4, 2002, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by 8thDegreeSavage
Bwahahah....***** man sorry...i mistyped it...it works good now!....please check it out...im not joking around here....view the cold ugly truth about IBM!

I don't get why it is such a big deal??? American companies were always after the profit first and how should a company have known what was going on in Germany, when even most of the Germans didn't know???

At the time when IBM was making "business" with Germany the US were not in war with Germany and he was just considered "dangerous" since he declared war to several countries, but nobody really knew what was going on, especially not the people in North America. I am pretty sure that the Germans didn't tell IBM what they exactly did with the machines they purchased. Or does a killer tell the gun-dealer, that he's buying the bullets to kill his mom? I don't think so.

Afterwards people are always smarter than before, but I don't get the witch-hunt now. Since when morals do matter for big companies? Exactly, almost never! And if, it is only because they got slapped on their fingers by the public!

groovebuster

AlphaTech

Jul 4, 2002, 05:01 PM

groovebuster, there is a reason you are on my ignore list... You know I will never own a german or japanese vehicle, ever.

BTW, with you being on the ignore list, I don't have to suffer through your novel length, moronic rants... :p

suck it biatch!! :p :D

groovebuster

Jul 4, 2002, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
groovebuster, there is a reason you are on my ignore list... You know I will never own a german or japanese vehicle, ever.

BTW, with you being on the ignore list, I don't have to suffer through your novel length, moronic rants... :p

suck it biatch!! :p :D

Exactly the niveau I expected from you! :D

I don't wonder that you have to suffer, when you always have to realize again what an unlogic bull-***** you are barf*ing into the forum, when it is not about computers.

Missing arguments are substituted by posing! You are a real man dude! You are a hero! I don't put you on my ignore list! Otheriwse I would miss the good entertainment you provide! And to almost pee in my pants because I am laughing so hard after reading one of your posts is really worth it! :cool:

It is funny that guys like you still think they are the cool winners, after they lost not only the game, but also all credibility.

Would have been refreshing to hear at least ONE argument from you that is valid and not just warm air through all the discussion we had before...

It's OK! Run away from the discussion and declare yourself the winner... Life can be so easy, huh? :D

groovebuster

groovebuster

Jul 4, 2002, 05:28 PM

krossfyter

Jul 5, 2002, 03:54 AM

i feel a song coming on.

DannyZR2

Jul 5, 2002, 06:14 AM

groovebuster, this is the funniest thread i've read here on macrumors in a while! It reminded me of the readings of Kela vs. John123 back in the day.. are you related to Spikey?

:D

Anyway, I did appreciate your history lesson, although I didn't know that HD has motors made by Porsche, if I read that correctly. I own a 944 turbo since about 4-5 months ago, and I've begun to get a huge interest in Dr. Ferdinand's car company. Now that I've owned ONE, I don't think I'll ever go back to any other car... I'm a Porsche owner for life! - Kinda like switching to a mac! - yeah.. that's how I'll turn this thread into a relative thread.. driving a Porsche is like working on a Mac.. there is no comparison really in driving such an amazing car. One day, I'll get me a wide-body turbo-look, maybe a slant-nose, but I think I'll always be looking for a perfect 968...

but anyway, I don't think this thread will ever get back on track.. so I'm gonna stop trying. :)

groovebuster

Jul 5, 2002, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by DannyZR2
groovebuster, this is the funniest thread i've read here on macrumors in a while! It reminded me of the readings of Kela vs. John123 back in the day.. are you related to Spikey?

:D

Anyway, I did appreciate your history lesson, although I didn't know that HD has motors made by Porsche, if I read that correctly. I own a 944 turbo since about 4-5 months ago, and I've begun to get a huge interest in Dr. Ferdinand's car company. Now that I've owned ONE, I don't think I'll ever go back to any other car... I'm a Porsche owner for life! - Kinda like switching to a mac! - yeah.. that's how I'll turn this thread into a relative thread.. driving a Porsche is like working on a Mac.. there is no comparison really in driving such an amazing car. One day, I'll get me a wide-body turbo-look, maybe a slant-nose, but I think I'll always be looking for a perfect 968...

but anyway, I don't think this thread will ever get back on track.. so I'm gonna stop trying. :)

Thanks... but I am not related to Spikey at all.

I didn't know myself that HD was a customer of Porsche lately to have a motor engineered until Alpha told me himself in weak moment on another thread. Since he's flaming innocent people for nothing it is not too bad I guess, when someone else who knows a little bit more about some stuff is paying him back once in a while! ;)

Congrats that you have the "little extra-cash" to afford a Porsche! :) These cars are really cool. I had the opportunity to drive some once in a while, but since I have a family to feed the money goes into other stuff (like diappers ;)). Not to mention, that a Porsche is not really a family car and my better half wouldn't be too pleased to buy an expensive toy like that at the moment.

But next time you are in Germany make sure to contact me... I will show you the best Autobahn parts to go crazy with your right foot on the gas-pedal! :D

You'll love the tickeling feeling to go 250kph in average, when it is all legal and there is no worry to lose your license. :cool:

Take care!

groovebuster

topicolo

Jul 5, 2002, 08:25 AM

hey groovebuster, I just wanted to lend you my support; your argument was perfectly rational and quite logical, unlike your hot-headed american opponent. :) His final rant pretty much conceded that you were right with his stubborness.

groovebuster

Jul 5, 2002, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by topicolo
hey groovebuster, I just wanted to lend you my support; your argument was perfectly rational and quite logical, unlike your hot-headed american opponent. :) His final rant pretty much conceded that you were right with his stubborness.

Thanks! :)

From where in Ontario are you? My wife is from Ottawa and my uncle lives in Toronto.

Canada is a nice place... :)

groovebuster

PCUser

Jul 5, 2002, 09:12 AM

AlphaTech, do you avoid Sony products simply because the Sony Corporation is headquartered in Tokyo, Japan and was founded by Japanese who developed military equipment during WWII? What about the PS2? You don't like that game console just because it's made by a Japanese company? Or do you buy from the Sony Corporation of America headquarted in New York that is a subsidiary of the Sony Corporation, because that one is in the USA? Or is this just about cars? :rolleyes:

I'd have to say I didn't think my opinion of a fellow citizen of the USA could go so low... oh, well.

job

Jul 5, 2002, 09:46 AM

Well, Alpha does have the freedom to choose where he spends his money. :rolleyes: :D

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 09:56 AM

Alpha, you realize that groovebuster has got you licked, right?? I think its time to concede defeat on this one.

Interesting post on the history of automobiles in Germany, groove. My grandfather's family was German--and Jewish--and was lucky enough to have left Germany before any of the horrible Nazi acts began. But that certainly does not mean that I have anything against the German people as a whole. Thats just nuts.

There have actually been a few books out as of late that have tried to show links between IBM and Nazi Germany. And others accusing Henry Ford of being an anti-semite. I'm not sure of the veracity of their arguments, but I was somewhat convinced by some of the material that I saw.

At any rate, I would venture that very few people holds the beliefs of the management of their respective companies today. To purposely avoid Ford or IBM because of the company's actions years ago (with completely different management and employees), would be a bit over the top.

Taft

AlphaTech

Jul 5, 2002, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by hitman
Well, Alpha does have the freedom to choose where he spends his money. :rolleyes: :D

Thank you...

Besides, living in a FREE country, I can have any opinion I want. I don't try to force my buying habits on anyone else. I fail to see why my opinions offend the groovebuster, could be an indication that he has deeper psychological issues.

Do any of you bleeding heart liberals purchase items made in China??? With what they did in Tienemin Square (not sure on spelling :p) I would be surprised if you did. :rolleyes:

groovebuster

Jul 5, 2002, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by PCUser
AlphaTech, do you avoid Sony products simply because the Sony Corporation is headquartered in Tokyo, Japan and was founded by Japanese who developed military equipment during WWII? What about the PS2? You don't like that game console just because it's made by a Japanese company? Or do you buy from the Sony Corporation of America headquarted in New York that is a subsidiary of the Sony Corporation, because that one is in the USA? Or is this just about cars? :rolleyes:

I'd have to say I didn't think my opinion of a fellow citizen of the USA could go so low... oh, well.

This might answer your question:

http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=4019&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

Regards,

groovebuster

AlphaTech

Jul 5, 2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Taft
Alpha, you realize that groovebuster has got you licked, right??

I only let women lick me... :eek: :eek: :D :cool:

jefhatfield

Jul 5, 2002, 11:02 AM

the first time i heard about conflicted interests was in high school (history class) when american companies were selling aluminum to the japanese towards the end of WWII when it was apparent the us had won

by late '43, it was just a matter of time...some say after the battle of midway, it was a lost cause for the axis powers

hindsight shows that admiral yamamoto, japanese chief of naval operations in WWII, who went to yale, knew that japan going to war with america was a lost cause in the first place

job

Jul 5, 2002, 11:05 AM

Yamato realised that Japan did not have the industrial resources to wage total war, i.e. a war of attrition, with America for a lengthened period of time.

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech

Do any of you bleeding heart liberals purchase items made in China??? With what they did in Tienemin Square (not sure on spelling :p) I would be surprised if you did. :rolleyes:

Weeeelllll... I, as the bleeding heart liberal that I am, find it hard to justify punishing a whole country because of the actions of the misguided government and their horrible civil rights record.

Its like putting Iraq under a trade embargo. You are really just punishing the people. Saddam is still living in his palace and the people are getting screwed. Then Saddam just brain washes them into thinking its all the US's fault (which to an extent their problems ARE our fault).

But you right-wing conservatives probably aren't interested in hearing my liberal opinions. :rolleyes: Sheesh.

Taft

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech

Besides, living in a FREE country, I can have any opinion I want. I don't try to force my buying habits on anyone else. I fail to see why my opinions offend the groovebuster, could be an indication that he has deeper psychological issues.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions.

BUT, since you are supposedly employing logic to form your opinions about where to buy your products, I find it alarming that you choose to ignore the sensible facts that groovebuster has outlined for you. Your opinions probably don't *offend* groovebuster. Like me, he is probably just confused as to why you are blatently ignoring facts.

Weird.

Taft

AlphaTech

Jul 5, 2002, 11:48 AM

I am also ignoring his posts... Nice feature of this forum is that you can select certain people to ignore.

BTW, I can CHOOSE to think as I like, buy as I see fit, and answer to no one for any of it. Just as I choose to own firearms, which is a right we enjoy in the US. :p

jefhatfield

Jul 5, 2002, 11:51 AM

in america with all our options, it is so hard to buy only american

i have two american computers, the ibook and a compaq presario

componenets are made in taiwan and china, among other places...the ibook was assembled in taiwain...there is just no way to win...anything complex like a computer has something made or assembled somewhere else

are there any cars out there completely made and assembled in america down to the last microchip?

we are unfortunately in a cyclical recession and there is nothing that can be done about it except ride it out

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
I am also ignoring his posts... Nice feature of this forum is that you can select certain people to ignore.

BTW, I can CHOOSE to think as I like, buy as I see fit, and answer to no one for any of it. Just as I choose to own firearms, which is a right we enjoy in the US. :p

Sure you can.

Its just that a lot of people--myself included--will think that you are a gigantic a**hole. But then, like most **********, you probably don't care.

Taft

AlphaTech

Jul 5, 2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Taft
Sure you can.

Its just that a lot of people--myself included--will think that you are a gigantic a**hole. But then, like most **********, you probably don't care.

So, because I don't cave to YOUR opinions, I'M the asshole??? Get bent.

I'm not the asshole that is trying to get you to purchase one way or the other. What I decide to purchase, should have no bearing on what you purchase.

I choose to support as many local business and American companies as possible.

You can think whatever you like, I couldn't care less, just don't go judging people by their purchasing habits. That is the sign of an ignorant asshole that cannot tolerate the fact that people are individuals and WILL do as they please or choose.

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by AlphaTech

BTW, I can CHOOSE to think as I like, buy as I see fit, and answer to no one for any of it. Just as I choose to own firearms, which is a right we enjoy in the US. :p

THIS is why I think the way I do about you. Not because of the way you purchase.

You just don't get it. I don't care if you completely disagreed with every opinion I had. But the way you present yourself is too much for me to handle.

You don't listen to intelligent arguments people have. You don't think you have to answer to anyone. Its arrogent and childish.

I'm not judging you for your opinion. I'm judging you for not being able to listen to others opinions or carry on a reasonable conversation.

*THAT* is why I so often get ticked at what you say.

Taft

jefhatfield

Jul 5, 2002, 12:08 PM

buying american is important for sure

i buy local since that is even more important for an isolated area like the monterey peninsula...surrounded by water on three sides...to help both america and monterey county, ca

i know i can get a slightly better deal in san jose, but i buy my stuff in monterey unless there is something i just can't pass up on the interenet or big city

but i know some people who buy everything online and don't give any of their money to local business...i guess that is the way of the world and i can't turn the clock back

at one time, i used to be anti-computer because i thought that computers would destroy the economy by taking away jobs...i knew that no matter how big the computer industry got, it would never replace all the jobs it displaced...but then i finally gave in an became a techie three years ago...if you can't beat them...you know the rest

but for now, i will buy local as long as i could...but one day, there may be no local businesses or malls, etc

perhaps everything will be online one day and i will have to embrace that, too:p

shadowfax0

Jul 5, 2002, 12:11 PM

AlphaTech, I like Anime too ;) That's all I'
m gonnna say bcause these discussions just end up getting everyone mad :p

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
buying american is important for sure

i buy local since that is even more important for an isolated area like the monterey peninsula...surrounded by water on three sides...to help both america and monterey county, ca

i know i can get a slightly better deal in san jose, but i buy my stuff in monterey unless there is something i just can't pass up on the interenet or big city

but i know some people who buy everything online and don't give any of their money to local business...i guess that is the way of the world and i can't turn the clock back

at one time, i used to be anti-computer because i thought that computers would destroy the economy by taking away jobs...i knew that no matter how big the computer industry got, it would never replace all the jobs it displaced...but then i finally gave in an became a techie three years ago...if you can't beat them...you know the rest

but for now, i will buy local as long as i could...but one day, there may be no local businesses or malls, etc

perhaps everything will be online one day and i will have to embrace that, too:p

I definitely like to support local businesses. I come from an isolated area, probably not dissimilar to monterey peninsula. Its the Upper Penninsula of Michigan.

Anyway, when I lived there, I always tried to buy local before resorting to mail order or the evils of technological ordering. :) In areas with depressed economies, you can definitely see the small shop-keep's need for business.

I think its important to support that.

Taft

Taft

Jul 5, 2002, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Taft

I definitely like to support local businesses.

Though this is a fundamentally different issue than purposely not buying from a country because of that country's previous transgressions. That is not the same at all.

Taft

jefhatfield

Jul 5, 2002, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Taft

I definitely like to support local businesses. I come from an isolated area, probably not dissimilar to monterey peninsula. Its the Upper Penninsula of Michigan.

Taft

people where i live marry their cousins or at least do it with them:p

Dignan

Jul 5, 2002, 12:38 PM

I think supporting your own economy is a sound thing to do.

I think ignoring someone with a pretty valid arguement comes off as a childish thing to do.

And both of the above are quite american.

-D

groovebuster

Jul 5, 2002, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Taft
Interesting post on the history of automobiles in Germany, groove. My grandfather's family was German--and Jewish--and was lucky enough to have left Germany before any of the horrible Nazi acts began. But that certainly does not mean that I have anything against the German people as a whole. Thats just nuts.

There have actually been a few books out as of late that have tried to show links between IBM and Nazi Germany. And others accusing Henry Ford of being an anti-semite. I'm not sure of the veracity of their arguments, but I was somewhat convinced by some of the material that I saw.

At any rate, I would venture that very few people holds the beliefs of the management of their respective companies today. To purposely avoid Ford or IBM because of the company's actions years ago (with completely different management and employees), would be a bit over the top.

Thanks! :)

Of course most jews back than where Germans as well, they just had the "wrong" religion. A very strange thing about anti-semitism is, that they call the jews a race, what is totally stupid. I never heard anybody talking about the muslim or christian race so far!

I also lost family in the war and I often talked to my grand-parents about the time back then. Hitler was like a thief at night, stealing himself into power. Only 30% elected him and as long as he didn't have the absolute power, he was still playing the nice guy who just pretended to do the best to make Germany a prospering country again. Most people thought that his anti-semitism was just an attitude. That's why also a lot of jews where staying in Germany until it was too late. The first real impression what he was up to the people got in the Reichskristallnacht (9th/10th of November 1938). But at that time the people were already too scared of the SS to do something against Hitler. He had reached his goal to control the whole country already.

As you probably know there were several attempts to get rid of Hitler (so far about that all Germans liked him), but that bastard was always lucky and got somehow away by luck.

Hell, most Germans didn't even know that there were concentration camps. The propaganda wasn't talking about it and the people often just thought that the jews were send out of the country.

When the people realized that Hitler was totally insane and would bring Germany into major trouble the country was already in war with half the world.

One thing is for sure... under the right circumstances it can happen in any country. And we just had the "right" circumstances unfortunately. I remember that we were still reading still articles in school by historians from other countries who said that the nazi-ideology lies in genes and the mentality of the Germans... I think we don't have to talk about that any further.

Most Germans are nice and peace-loving. Back then they were not more patriotic than other countries.

Anyway... everybody who is prejudice about Germany these days is invited to visit us here. You'll find a nice and multicultural country with a lot to explore.

To come back to the thing about IBM and other companies... I still think this is a witch-hunt. Even if a company was trading with the enemy, what's the big deal, as long as it is not weapons? Today it is maybe it a little bit different, but back then... I don't know.

groovebuster

sturm375

Jul 5, 2002, 01:23 PM

For those advocating "buying American" I have a quick question for you. Say you buy a Sony DVD player with $200 USD. What does Sony do with $200 USD? Eventually, it may go through several hands, that $200 gets back to America to buy somthing. If it didn't, the USD would be worthless on the open market.

Just a little something that an Economics professor once asked me, it made me think a little more about the so called "Trade Imbalance".

And just for the record:
I own a Saturn (Part GM, and part either Japenesse or German)
I own a self-built dual athlon system with much of the componants from Japan
I own an Apple TiPB, again much of the components from Japan
I own a Sony: Stero, DVD player, VCR, TV, and headphones.

I would not want to own a Japenesse car due to the fact that I can get the same features from an American company, and more importantly, for less(due to import taxes). I would like, if I had the money, to own a few German cars.

groovebuster

Jul 5, 2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Taft

THIS is why I think the way I do about you. Not because of the way you purchase.

You just don't get it. I don't care if you completely disagreed with every opinion I had. But the way you present yourself is too much for me to handle.

You don't listen to intelligent arguments people have. You don't think you have to answer to anyone. Its arrogent and childish.

I'm not judging you for your opinion. I'm judging you for not being able to listen to others opinions or carry on a reasonable conversation.

*THAT* is why I so often get ticked at what you say.

Taft

I guess we think much alike. It is a good feeling to know that I am not alone with my opinion. Thanks for your support, but I think in Alpha's case it is hopeless. He doesn't even get our point. Otherwise he would have to admit that he is wrong about something, but that would destroy his little world he is living in in which he is the hero.

You got it totally right, I am also not offended by his decisions/opinion or what he wants to buy (he can do whatever he likes to), but by the way and the reasons he is justifying them. His hypocracy hardly can be topped. Valid arguments are just ignored. Well, the easiest way to be always right. Too bad for him, that bashing me doesn't work anymore after he showed how ignorant he is about discussing real facts... not to mention, that he can't take it when people talk the same way with him as he is doing with other people. Also not anything new that especially the fellows with the big mouth are always soar losers.

The only good thing is that through discussions like this he gains a lot of attention and people notice that the cool Alpha is just a posing primate.

At least this time he got a major slap on his fingers and he maybe is a little bit more careful about what he is saying in the future.

groovebuster

P.S.: I don't get anyway why he thinks it is a good idea to put me on the ignore list. That way I can prove him wrong in a discussion and he doesn't even notice. He has to lose more than me if that happens.

Choppaface

Jul 5, 2002, 03:52 PM

why does this have to be such a stupid little game? just put alpha on your ignore list. he's not worth the effort; if all you can do is view this thread as 'alpha loses, i win,' then you're really wasting your time here.

groovebuster

Jul 5, 2002, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Choppaface
why does this have to be such a stupid little game? just put alpha on your ignore list. he's not worth the effort; if all you can do is view this thread as 'alpha loses, i win,' then you're really wasting your time here.

No, it is not only Alpha loses. At first I was replying to someone else, check it out man. I was just replying to Alpha (like so many times) because I wanted to correct what he said. When he is not able to admit at least once that he is wrong about it, then it is his problem, not mine!

I just don't like when people are doing statements which they are backing up with totally stupid, uninformed and prejudice arguments. So when he says that he is a jew and doesn't give money to german companies, it is simply racistic and narrow minded, because everybody gets the message germans = nazis, not regarding the fact that there was never a majority of Germans who were real Nazis and the holocaust is 60 years ago. He is just on the same level as people who say that they don't make business with jews...

Especially since I am a German myself I have an interest to show that he is wrong with such a statement and that he is violating it anyway by buying his beloved HD motorcycle.

Don't get me wrong, he can have his opinion and do whatever he likes to. But when he is making it public in an internet forum he has to be aware that it is not his privacy anymore and that it will be evaluated by the people around him. Still, it is not about his freedom to do and think what he likes to, it is about his manners and hypocracy in his statements he is doing in public.

I find it very disturbing, when young people (there are quite a lot on this forum here) are reading his crap and maybe think that he is cool and also his opinions. Teenagers are influencable very easily and sometimes it is enough to pick a prejudice up somewhere to make them fans of a "way to think"...

And still, this is a forum. If he says something that is wrong in my opinion, I can prove him wrong. That's what a forum is for.

So don't worry, I am not on an Alpha-witch hunt. ;) But when I see him saying something stupid that also affects me indirectly, I jump into the discussion.

So relax.

groovebuster

Choppaface

Jul 6, 2002, 01:25 AM

my point is that he's obviously not going to change, so trying to correct him doesnt really do anything. I'm half german and I couldn't give a damn what he says because you're not going to get anything out of him. a true discussion is much more than telling people they're right or wrong. petty little squabbles like this only create more friction in the community. is this friction really worth it when the change will be for the worse? well, i guess it is if you think that everbody with a hint of bigotry needs a little slap on their hands.....it's just not worth it

groovebuster

Jul 6, 2002, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Choppaface
my point is that he's obviously not going to change, so trying to correct him doesnt really do anything. I'm half german and I couldn't give a damn what he says because you're not going to get anything out of him. a true discussion is much more than telling people they're right or wrong. petty little squabbles like this only create more friction in the community. is this friction really worth it when the change will be for the worse? well, i guess it is if you think that everbody with a hint of bigotry needs a little slap on their hands.....it's just not worth it

Not everybody... but in his case it's something different!

I think it is worse to ignore people like him than to react once in a while. It is not that I am hunting him through the threads, it's the opposite.

At least he gets once in a while the treatment he is giving to other people. And as far as I can see you are the only one so far who has a problem with that.

By the way... being German has nothing to do with the whole thing. But do you see his reaction? He still is shooting, but it shows that he is pretty embarassed.

I don' think that it has any bad influence on the community when people like him get a little slap on their hands once in a while, I think the contrary. So you have a different point of view... fine! I just don't get why in the end you indirectly defend people like him? And I also don't see the damage for the community you were talking about...

Regards,

groovebuster

Taft

Jul 7, 2002, 11:55 PM

I really don't like getting into these kind of things, but I've taken a few licks from Alpha in the past and the tension has been palpable. Its been coming.

I agree that it can often do more harm than good getting into these kins of things. Taking things personally is probably the first step down the path of flamewars. Sometimes you should just let it go. But sometimes someone just ticks you off enough and you are so mad that you have to respond.

That my attempt at justifying my pissy behavior. :D Heh.

Taft

job

Jul 8, 2002, 01:53 AM

I don't really know if quasi-political threads, especially ones of this nature that are bound to lead to inevitable flaming, belong in a tech forum. Just my 2 cents.

hitman

kermit64

Jul 8, 2002, 02:00 AM

if you were dedicated to your local economy in a town on the border b/n u.s. and mexico would you only buy things from businesses on the u.s. side?

crassusad44

Jul 9, 2002, 09:38 AM

What a thread... The first page is probably the funniest and most interesting non-Mac related thread I have seen on this forum....

Alpha: Although I certainly enjoy many of you posts (love it when you flame PC-trolls), I hope you know you're making an a$$ out of yourself in this thread..

groovebuster: I'm speechless. I'm about to start studying history at the University, and your posts were very interesting indeed!!!

Oh BTW, I just read that the US army did some pretty nasty things in Vietnam. Oh, and I read something about how the US gouvernment abuses their political world domination power to keep 3rd world countries down in the mud. The US is even ignorant enough to not pay their debts to the UN! Don't think I want to buy another American product ever again!

What really saying is: Don't be so ******** proud of your country. All countries does, or have done, nasty things. Today the US tops the list, along with Israel, Turkey, India and others (Palestinian extremists and Taliban does not form a country, but they are on the list as well). Of course this is highly simplified.

topicolo

Jul 9, 2002, 09:56 AM

awww... don't look now, but I think you guys scared off Alpha :D

smelias

Jul 9, 2002, 10:45 AM

I totally understand where Aplha is comming from. My mother, a Jew, escaped from Poland to France thru Germany during the War and her stories regarding the attrocities that she witnessed are horrible. I am not going to repeat them here, but I am going to say that I personally will never buy a German car, or coffee maker, or electronic razor etc., not because I dislike the Germans, but out of respect for my family who died at the hands of Germans, and for the love of my Mother, who is still alive, and would probably die if she saw me driving around in a German car.

With that said, in this age of globalizations, it is getting more and more difficult to find a pure "American" product. Buying a Honda would support the local economy of Alabama, and the profits would certainly be invested thru US investment houses in american companies. Buying a Honda, it could be reasoned, is good for America. Such can be said for the BMW G5 which is also built in America. So when I see these foreign cars beeing driven (I personally drive a Lincoln), I do not see them as anti-patriotic, but as good competition. However, a person has the freedom to personally boycott these products for moral reason.

So when somebody chooses to be discriminating in the way they purchase their product, I applaud their efforts and stand by what they believe, because at the very least, instead of living a life of utter indulgence, we try to live a life with meaning, where we place values on not just social acceptance, but moral importance as well.

crassusad44

Jul 9, 2002, 11:35 AM

jefhatfield

Jul 9, 2002, 12:24 PM

and i won't buy anything from japan since i am 25 percent okinawan and japan won't give the island back

that means i would probably be naked some days in public and with the belly i have gained being a stereotype techie...not talking about you ultimate frisbee fans... i would not be a pretty site

...i still have good butt though but gravity and the next decade in my 40s will take care of that, too:p

smelias

Jul 9, 2002, 01:31 PM

You guys are missing the point!

Financially, I would argue that all families of the survivors of the holocaust should buy German products because our money, indirectly, goes back the the families through reperation, and Israel, by way of discounted products and services. However, by Alpha and I stating that I will never knowingly buy a German product, the question must be asked-why?

Once that question is asked, one can go ahead and discuss the history that so many of us want to forget.

I liken it to another scenerio. My friend refuses to eat in Mediteranean restaurants because of what happened on 9/11. Never mind that the one I go to is owned by a Turkysh family - nationals of a country who are our allies, a member of NATO, and are currently in charge of security in Afghanistan. Why does he do this? - because it his way of remembering. And sixty years from now (if he really sticks to his beliefs), when his son asks why does he do this, he can tell him, and we will never forget.

Taft

Jul 9, 2002, 02:08 PM

I agree with your right to not buy products from Germans or from the Mid East. You are entitled.

But, from my perspective, you are effectively singling out a group of people based on their nationality and refusing to do business with them. Even if it is simply a matter of rememberance, I think that the behavior is wrong. You are punishing the people as a whole, even if you don't see it that way. I consider this racism.

Look at it this way...

Lets say a black person killed my parents and some other people because he was mad at his ex-employer and blew up a bomb in a public place. Now let me repeat what you said: I no longer will buy anything from a black person out of rememberance of my parents and the others killed. It doesn't sound very good, does it?

Thats because its stereotyping and a form of racism. You are taking the actions of a few, and treating the whole a certain way because of it.

If I said I refused to do business with a black person, people would lable me a racist no matter what my reasons were--and rightly so. The difference here is that it is somewhat societally acceptable to do this to Germans or Mid Eastern peoples because the nature of the crimes was so horrible and effected so many people. I submit that this does not matter. The horrible crimes were perpetrated by a few people with very extreme and evil beliefs, not the populations as a whole.

Like I said, you have a right to do what you like. But I ask you very sincerely to reconsider your position. It is a position that mistreats a whole group of people, many of which are close friends of mine--German, and various Arab nations. These people are just like you and me and deserve all of the rights, happiness and pleasures that we do.

I wish people would remember this. It would be a much better world if we did.

Taft

smelias

Jul 9, 2002, 02:43 PM

If I said I refused to do business with a black person, people would lable me a racist no matter what my reasons were--and rightly so. The difference here is that it is somewhat societally acceptable to do this to Germans or Mid Eastern peoples because the nature of the crimes was so horrible and effected so many people. I submit that this does not matter. The horrible crimes were perpetrated by a few people with very extreme and evil beliefs, not the populations as a whole.

I agree that that would be an extreme example, and I do not condone bigotry or racism, and to that end I must say that I do not hate Germans and do not wish them ill, but I still boycott their products. BTW, the scenerio you described is very close to that of American History X, and if there is anything that one can learn from that movie is that one needs to teach their children tolerance.

I love you all!

groovebuster

Jul 10, 2002, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by smelias
I totally understand where Aplha is comming from. My mother, a Jew, escaped from Poland to France thru Germany during the War and her stories regarding the attrocities that she witnessed are horrible. I am not going to repeat them here, but I am going to say that I personally will never buy a German car, or coffee maker, or electronic razor etc., not because I dislike the Germans, but out of respect for my family who died at the hands of Germans, and for the love of my Mother, who is still alive, and would probably die if she saw me driving around in a German car.

It is always interesting, that some people live always in the past...

Can you please enlighten me what it is has to do with respect for your family to act racistic towards the citizens of a whole country because of something that happened 60 years ago, caused by a minority that took over power?

Maybe you don't know it, but in Germany are still living a lot of jews. My brother is married to a jewish woman and she lost also family back then. It seems that her family doesn't have a problem even to live in Germany. You should talk to some jews living in Germany, maybe it would help you a lot.

Following your logic you have to avoid any business with any German. So if you would know that the boss of an US company is german, you would also boycott business with that company? If your neighbour would be a german immigrant you wouldn't greet him on the street? What is with companies founded by Germans in the US?

I really would like to know where you draw the line and what all that respect thing is about...

groovebuster

groovebuster

Jul 10, 2002, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by smelias

I agree that that would be an extreme example, and I do not condone bigotry or racism, and to that end I must say that I do not hate Germans and do not wish them ill, but I still boycott their products. BTW, the scenerio you described is very close to that of American History X, and if there is anything that one can learn from that movie is that one needs to teach their children tolerance.

I love you all!

You are for tolerance, BUT you boycott german products just because of the fact that they are from Germany... you contradict yourself dude.

Have you ever been to Germany? Probably not, because it is "evil land" for you! I even doubt that you know anything about Germany than the stories of your mom.

You know what? My grand-uncle was about nine years old, when the war was over (yes, OVER!). He was on the street with his mom because they wanted to get some food from a farmer living near. They met a group of russian soldiers. One of the soldiers wanted to have "fun" with her, but she tried to keep him away. So the soldier just pulled his gun and shot her right in the head. She was dead immediately her brains spread all over the place. And my uncle witnessed with his own eyes how his mom got shot in the middle of the street and he couldn't do anything about it...

Does he hate russians? No! Does he boycott russian products? No! But he hates the guy who did that and never got charged for it! Because he knows that this incident had nothing to do with the soldier being russian, but with the aggressive nature of human beings in general, no matter which color, country or religion...

Tell me how boycotting German products is making people remember the holocaust??? The only thing you do is punishing people who don't have anything to do with the evil back then than just being born by accident in Germany many years later and not to let that tolerance happen that you are talking about, because you wonna make the people remember the holocaust by labeling it "german is bad".

Do you really think that the ghetto in Warsaw could have happened, if the Nazis didn't have a lot of helpers in the polish population? Anti-semitism was never just a german thing.

What is with all the ships crowded with jews that couldn't leave Germany because they had nowhere to go? The allies denied acces to their harbours.

What about Switzerland? They closed down the check-points at the borders, when a lot of jews from southern germany tried to escape and saw their only chance in getting to Switzerland...

I totally agree that the world should always remember genocides so that it is at least more unlikely to happen again. But to do that the way you do?? Almost every country did that in the past (US -> native americans, slavery, ... / Germany -> Holocaust... / Turkey -> Armenians... / USSR -> Stalin "enemies"... / China -> Tibet... / Australia -> aborigenes... and so on and so on...)

Considering that no country could do any business with anyone...

This is the way how the world won't work in the future my friend. Best example is what is going on between Israel and Palestine. If they all have your way of thinking there will be never a peaceful co-existence in the future.

Think about it.

groovebuster

Eliot

Jul 10, 2002, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by smelias
You guys are missing the point!

I liken it to another scenerio. My friend refuses to eat in Mediteranean restaurants because of what happened on 9/11. Never mind that the one I go to is owned by a Turkysh family - nationals of a country who are our allies, a member of NATO, and are currently in charge of security in Afghanistan. Why does he do this? - because it his way of remembering. And sixty years from now (if he really sticks to his beliefs), when his son asks why does he do this, he can tell him, and we will never forget.

My God, with logic like that, you could start a whole new religion based on blind hatred...............................
60 years from now,when his son replies: "And your point would be...?"
We all need to remember but not like this. Get a grip.

crassusad44

Jul 10, 2002, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by smelias

BTW, the scenerio you described is very close to that of American History X, and if there is anything that one can learn from that movie is that one needs to teach their children tolerance.

I love you all!

How do you dare to speak of tolerance, when you don't even know what the word means? You are boycoting a whole people because of something that happend 60 years ago. In my book, that is racism. I will not make this post very long, as groovebuster has written an excellent reply. I urge you to read it thourough.

BTW. How would you feel if I was boycoting all jews (lets pretend I'm Palestinian), because of what is happening in Palestine? I'm not doing it, and I do not intend to either. But if I were to follow your logic, I would have a good reason to do it, and make my children do it, and their childern again.