graphic design salaries

[gernb]

i'm a newbie so don't jump on me if this has been covered recently...just give me a link.

But here's what I'm wondering...since there must be a ton of designers who pass through these forums...

How are you finding the job market lately and what do you expect to earn annually given your level of experience?

I guess what's prompting me to ask the question is that I'm considering a job search, but I wonder what's realistic in terms of pay and benefits these days. I suppose this is directed more at those of you who work in house and aren't exclusively self employed...but feel free to chime in whoever you are.

What's a designer make these days...when it seems like every hack kid thinks they know how to make photoshop and quark sing?

I'll start us off...I'm more or less an art director / creative services director for a non profit...I make just over 50,000. Should I be thrilled or pissed at my employer?

[MacAztec]

You should talk to "eyelikeart"

I believe he is a graphic design guy

[eyelikeart]

Well...in my opinion...the market is honestly becoming saturated. With computers becoming so cheap (peecees) that anyone can buy them, more & more people are trying to "design" their own work. It makes my life a living hell at work sometimes. There are a lot of talented people out there I grant u, but it really becomes frustrating when u spend a lot of money on an education and end up fixing these people's work instead of creating your own.

I work for a printing company, hired as a graphic artist but am more of a production artist. I won't go into detail, but I don't make bad money....but significantly less then u are making as an art director. I just put in for a raise, as it's been a year since my last. I was looking around for other jobs locally for a while, and there never seems to be much available on a high scale unless u want to work for an ad agency of some sort...which doesn't appeal to me since they have such a high turnover. Other jobs I've encountered are offering less than I make right now.

So my plan, as I'm currently working on, is to get out on my own. I just reserved my domain today, and am currently working with someone to setup my own corporation. I've decided that I have other areas of creativity in which I can make money along with design (ie. amateur photography), so I'm going in the direction of a creative services bureau. I'm suddenly realizing that I'll probably only be happy eventually working for myself, which I'm hoping starts to formulate.

I didn't read where u are located, but if u are making just over $50k...u could probably make more as an art director for a larger company than a non-profit (ie. ad agency). But also to consider, how long have u been there and how stable is your current position?

[gernb]

eyelikeart...big thanks for the comments.

i agree that the most satisfaction and probably better income are to be had by working on your own. But, being totally self-employed is not for the faint of heart. takes a little more balls than i have at the moment. good luck to you, though. hope you make a successful run at.

i work in detroit. printing companies here are going out of business at the rate of a few a week...a lot of good shops but absolutely blood thirsty competition. alot of shops are doing work at cost or slightly below just to keep their presses running.

funny, but you can always find some job that's worse than your own. i would not want to be selling print in this town.

hope new orleans is better off.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by gernb
i work in detroit. printing companies here are going out of business at the rate of a few a week...a lot of good shops but absolutely blood thirsty competition. alot of shops are doing work at cost or slightly below just to keep their presses running.

hmm...now that's interesting. Why exactly do u want to seek out a different job? If the market is becoming thin near u, I'd honestly consider keeping what's stable or looking elsewhere. But in all honesty, I think all markets are suffering a bit these days. One of the reasons I'm sticking with my current job is because it's very flexible to my life. I can take off when needed, pretty much make my own hours, etc, etc. It works out very well for me since I've decided to go back to school so I can get my graduate degree...along with everything else in which I'm currently involved. ;)

[MacAztec]

I got a job for you....

Check out apple, they have lots of open jobs i believe.

Then, move out to Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Huntington, Longbeach, Laguna, or DelMar and you could be a sales distributor for apple, in southern cali.

Or move somewhere near San Fran, and work for em as a graphics guy!!!

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by MacAztec
I got a job for you....

Check out apple, they have lots of open jobs i believe.

Then, move out to Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Huntington, Longbeach, Laguna, or DelMar and you could be a sales distributor for apple, in southern cali.

Or move somewhere near San Fran, and work for em as a graphics guy!!!

he he he...I knew I liked u for a reason aztec! ;)

I have a job searcher on Apple's site already...so I get emails whenever there's something new posted. They are usually sales type jobs or Mac Genius jobs...but I still get them. When I was looking to move out to San Jose last year, I was targeting Apple Corporate...but as u guys can tell...I didn't make the move...

[MacAztec]

That was my idea when I get older!

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by MacAztec
That was my idea when I get older!

he he he...great minds think alike ;)

[D0ct0rteeth]

sallary really depends where you are who you work for. Most ad agencies and creative shops pay 15 - 25 an hour while high tech company with lots of beauracracy will usually pay 40 - 65 an hour.

Design jobs tend to be very saturated markets and can be competitive. In Boston I know people who work 60 hour weeks for 40k (and I know people who play pool all day for 130k) but the point remains that if you feel you are doing good work and you can pay for the roof over your head you are better off than some. Keep your resume out there but don't be in a hurry to leave.

It sounds to me that you have it good dude. If you want some extra coin freelance and you can always meet some potential clients/employers through communications orginizations.

Keep your portfolio sharp and professional and you will always have work.

Good Times.

C-

[jefhatfield]

as a former human resources person, i saw a lot of salaries in and out of the private and public sectors

as a computer graphic designer, you are an artist, and as far as artists go, you are doing very well

i have seen people who made more money doing other things to become artists making almost nothing and they were better people for it

i knew a graphic designer who made 160k during the dot.com year in the valley only to see it all disappear when it all went bust

big money in any field comes with big risks and short term jobs and assignments

american ceos make great money in big companies, but the tenure is usually just a year so they make the most of it

it is better to take a safer job for less than go for the big money on a undetermined job/short term job

[drastik]

I've been thinking about going out on my own to do Video production. Well actually, it would be with a friend of mine here in town. I alreadywork with him doing post production stuff, which is flexible since helets me make myown time. On the other hand I work for the state of TN helping the disabled. This job is fullfilling, sort of, but I could live with out it. That said, I made just a little less from the video stuff last year than I did from my regular gig. I could live on the video alone, but it would be like a fifty percent cut in income, which is hard to readjust. I might make a little more on the video side by freeing up more time, but its a big decision, and I'm trying to work up the cajones.

[eyelikeart]

I'm basically getting myself involved in quite a few projects which will give me lots of potential for making money....aside from having a regular day job...

hopefully things will start & continue to make progress...and eventually I'll be able to get away from this 9-5 gig and do something (or a few things) which will not only be more fulfilling...but likely make much more money in the long run... ;)

[iH8Quark]

It depends on what market you're in. If you're in a major metropolitan area, you could double your current salary at any medium to large size firm. But in a smaller market I'm not sure.

But just over $50k for a NPO sounds about right. If you're going for cash, get a job with an agency in a major metro area.

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
as a former human resources person, i saw a lot of salaries in and out of the private and public sectors

as a computer graphic designer, you are an artist...

:rolleyes:

This is a typical HR ********* excuse to pay extremely talented people a miserably low salary. By the time you get to an art director or creative director level, you have to have just as much marketing wisdom (more, actually) as any branded Marketing Director out there. Plus you have to have great design, management, and communication skills. And designers are BY FAR the most lobored and productive people in the "office job" grouping.

So don't let excuses like above hold you down. Know what you're worth, and be confident about it.

;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
It depends on what market you're in. If you're in a major metropolitan area, you could double your current salary at any medium to large size firm. But in a smaller market I'm not sure.

But just over $50k for a NPO sounds about right. If you're going for cash, get a job with an agency in a major metro area.

los angeles is a major metro area (number 3 in us) known for its computer related design work for brick and mortars and the entertainment industy

san jose and san francisco are medium sized markets, though not anywhere as big as detroit, but there is some work in the bay area

the only problem with california is that we are the most prolific state when it comes to artists...and much of that talent comes from other states and nations

...not to mention that one does not easily get raised on surfing, volleball, hanging with baywatch chicks, and then deciding, "hey, i want to be an accountant or shoe box manufacturer more than being an artist"

art goes with fun, sun, and california...so competition is stiff

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by iH8Quark


:rolleyes:

This is a typical HR ********* excuse to pay extremely talented people a miserably low salary. By the time you get to an art director or creative director level, you have to have just as much marketing wisdom (more, actually) than any branded Marketing Director out there. Plus you have to have great design, management, and communication skills. And designers are BY FAR the most lobored and productive people in the "office job" grouping.

So don't let excuses like above hold you down. Know what you're worth, and be confident about it.

;)

i totally agree in theory

but the world, this planet we call earth, has always undervalued artists when it comes to salary unless you are spielberg...and even then a spielberg is a recent phenomenon in the world of artistic expression

i have been a guitarist, singer, bassist, and drummer since the 1970s and played many times in public and worked my ass off as an artist and made very little money

but with relatively very little training in college and trade school, certainly not 25 years, i have made much more money as an engineer, computer analyst, computer fix-it man and it has never required the dedication that it takes to be a good musician

that is the world we live in and frankly, i think it sucks

why should a mba make six digits while an mfa makes less than half of that? the world is not fair

fyi - mba is one year of grad school with one year of undergrad brushup and after it all you are still not a specialist in anything

an mfa has to go thru two year of grad school and has to be a specialist as well as spend extra unrecorded time in the studio

yet the mba makes more in almost every case!?!

i hear you 100 percent

[iGav]

Originally posted by gernb
i'm a newbie so don't jump on me if this has been covered recently...just give me a link.

But here's what I'm wondering...since there must be a ton of designers who pass through these forums...

How are you finding the job market lately and what do you expect to earn annually given your level of experience?

I guess what's prompting me to ask the question is that I'm considering a job search, but I wonder what's realistic in terms of pay and benefits these days. I suppose this is directed more at those of you who work in house and aren't exclusively self employed...but feel free to chime in whoever you are.

What's a designer make these days...when it seems like every hack kid thinks they know how to make photoshop and quark sing?

I'll start us off...I'm more or less an art director / creative services director for a non profit...I make just over 50,000. Should I be thrilled or pissed at my employer?

50k for an Art Director sounds alittle low to me......... (and that's US dollars which really doesn't translate that well either) although it is a non-profit organisation so in some respects it's not that bad........

With repects to the current design job market..... I've seen it better...... seems like there is a real shortage of creative positions out there.... although tonnes of corporate branding designers for corporate business magazines are currently needed in London (IMHO the most boring, least creative form of design)

At the moment in London the design industry is way over subscribed with far too many people going for the few jobs that are on offer...... those that are seem to be either junior/graduate positions or Art director/creative driector levels.......

I'm currently freelancing and doing alright for myself....... I've found that there are many pro's and con's of freelancing....... the big con is the hours I work on projects..... you wouldn't believe... I make doctors look like slackers in the hour stakes some weeks....... the pro's though far out weigh the con's...... you are your own creative director.... (always a good thing), can take time off when you want..... you gain experience far outside of what can be achieved in a consultancy and the best thing is that I've atleast doubled what I'd be earning if I was in a consultancy.....

The days of the big design and new media gold rush are most definitely over......... so benefits aren't as great as they once were........ expect the usual though, private health (UK), personal pension, company PowerBook, and I've even seen a couple of positions recently with company car (Golf GTI's) but no where near what was going around in the late 90's......... i.e. huge bonues, use of company villa's etc etc....

[jefhatfield]

the corporate villas thing in london must have been when the torch was passed from multimedia gulch in the soma in san francisco to london uk as i read about in magazines

and for california multimedia "movie" companies to be letting the art part of our most american of institutions being done in england (lucas and dreamworks among others)

heck, with movie graphics being done more in london and the british invasion of the last two generations, you guys really won the revolutionary war!

what next?

steve getting a british passport and apple moving to england?:p ;) :D

ensign paris would be happy;)

[iGav]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the corporate villas thing in london must have been when the torch was passed from multimedia gulch in the soma in san francisco to london uk as i read about in magazines

and for california multimedia "movie" companies to be letting the art part of our most american of institutions being done in england (lucas and dreamworks among others)

heck, with movie graphics being done more in london and the british invasion of the last two generations, you guys really won the revolutionary war!

what next?

steve getting a british passport and apple moving to england?:p ;) :D

ensign paris would be happy;)

The mid to late 90's were off the scale in London..... the salaries that were going around, along with staff being poached by other companies by offering to double wages etc etc....... it really was a wild... if unsustainable period... and now we're paying for it........ the job market has crashed through the floor and solid opportunities are getting harder and harder to come by.......

The big boom industry at the moment in London seems to be the post houses.... the likes of the Mill and Framestore......... they're really beginning to take on the special effects companies of california.......... I just found out that the former company I worked for has just done on screen graphics for resident evil.......... so that's seems to be showing signs that even former digital interactive studios and agencies are beginning to move to other mediia now.........

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by iGAV


The mid to late 90's were off the scale in London..... the salaries that were going around, along with staff being poached by other companies by offering to double wages etc etc....... it really was a wild... if unsustainable period... and now we're paying for it........ the job market has crashed through the floor and solid opportunities are getting harder and harder to come by.......

The big boom industry at the moment in London seems to be the post houses.... the likes of the Mill and Framestore......... they're really beginning to take on the special effects companies of california.......... I just found out that the former company I worked for has just done on screen graphics for resident evil.......... so that's seems to be showing signs that even former digital interactive studios and agencies are beginning to move to other mediia now.........

and 200 high tech companies have already moved out of multimedia gulch in california!

hollywood will still at least film in the studios here...there is just too much of an infrastructure of warehouses and heavy equipment

but graphics for movies can be done anywhere there is an electrical outlet and billions in trucks, cameras, and lighting equipment are not needed to run photoshop..he he

and the public schools in california have long cut out funding for the arts..schools are turning to dells and maybe bill gates will require ms office for all calif hs students and have all artists run photodraw and frontpage:p

[jefhatfield]

and the funny thing is, when i think of europe and art/artistic endeavors...italy and france come to mind...never london

but in the age of computer art, i believe the historians will say something like this

old art - china, mesopotamia, africa, and the caves of the neanderthals

renaissance - italy

impressionism - france

multimedia - london

[richierich]

too bloody right for once - i like Jef

There is a phenomenal amount of creativity in London, I think the English don't shout about it enough. Especially not like the Italians who will tell you how good they are! That said, one of my best friends is from Milan and he is mr style but still prefers London over anywhere else (he is in LA at the moment.......)

Anyway I am an architect / designer who is now doing it on my own, having been made redundant 3 times in 4 years from permanent jobs. My tip to stay in it is have a smart portfolio, be confident in what you can do and cover all opportunities. You can't go wrong if you do that...... although as everyone is saying the job market in the design world in general seems to be pretty bad at the moment.

Thats why I am sat here as a freelancer, on the web looking at Macrumors on a crappy NT4 system, which is bloody awful.

ciao

[ArtMan617]

I'm 15 years old and an aspiring graphic designer/cinematographer (thanks to Photoshop and Final Cut Pro 2). Anyway, my Photoshop skills are certainly not up to par with any professionals, but I still have a good amount of experience and skill with the program (I'm running version 6.0.1). Does anyone have any ideas on how I could benefit from my current hobby (possibly future career) despite my young age? Also, I'm currently working on a video game based web comic, titled Insert Coin (http://www.geocities.com/insertcoincomic) (you can also get to it through my sig) and while the web site isn't up yet, you can view the first two comics. I'm always looking for feedback about the comic, so if anyone is interested, please check it out and tell me what you think at ArtMan617@mac.com . On a related note, I'm also accepting any donations anyone is willing to donate...just contact me (I realize that was pretty desperate, but I figured I'd try). Anyway, thank you all in advance for your help.

-ArtMan617

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by ArtMan617
I'm 15 years old and an aspiring graphic designer/cinematographer (thanks to Photoshop and Final Cut Pro 2). Anyway, my Photoshop skills are certainly not up to par with any professionals, but I still have a good amount of experience and skill with the program (I'm running version 6.0.1). Does anyone have any ideas on how I could benefit from my current hobby (possibly future career) despite my young age? Also, I'm currently working on a video game based web comic, titled Insert Coin (http://www.geocities.com/insertcoincomic) (you can also get to it through my sig) and while the web site isn't up yet, you can view the first two comics. I'm always looking for feedback about the comic, so if anyone is interested, please check it out and tell me what you think at ArtMan617@mac.com . On a related note, I'm also accepting any donations anyone is willing to donate...just contact me (I realize that was pretty desperate, but I figured I'd try). Anyway, thank you all in advance for your help.

-ArtMan617

The key to being a good designer is typography. It's not Photoshop. Solid typography sets apart great designers from the hacks.

Read "The Elements of Typographic Style" by Robert Bringhurst. It's a trifle boring, but worth its weight in gold.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ArtMan617
I'm 15 years old and an aspiring graphic designer/cinematographer (thanks to Photoshop and Final Cut Pro 2). Anyway, my Photoshop skills are certainly not up to par with any professionals, but I still have a good amount of experience and skill with the program (I'm running version 6.0.1). Does anyone have any ideas on how I could benefit from my current hobby (possibly future career) despite my young age? Also, I'm currently working on a video game based web comic, titled Insert Coin (http://www.geocities.com/insertcoincomic) (you can also get to it through my sig) and while the web site isn't up yet, you can view the first two comics. I'm always looking for feedback about the comic, so if anyone is interested, please check it out and tell me what you think at ArtMan617@mac.com . On a related note, I'm also accepting any donations anyone is willing to donate...just contact me (I realize that was pretty desperate, but I figured I'd try). Anyway, thank you all in advance for your help.

-ArtMan617

you are already 15 so you are legal to work and receive benefits...it may be hard where you are so be patient

...in california, land of the underage...i mean very young worker...he he, you could start with a low wage internship at a large company or college campus and get some experience under your belt...i cant speak for new jersey and its market for artists so ask around the area to local computer artists

there will be some prejedice against you since you are 15, but you are in america so they can't pass you over because they think you are too young...just be persistent and do some low wage and free jobs

it is a good thing that you have a practical interest at your age and you are getting an early start...when i was your age, i wanted to be a rock and roll star:p

[iGav]

Originally posted by jefhatfield

it is a good thing that you have a practical interest at your age and you are getting an early start...when i was your age, i wanted to be a rock and roll star:p

I wanted to be a rock star too....... :D Although from about the age of 12 I realised that I wanted to be a graphic designer....... so in High School I took Design and Communication, then when I left school at 16 went straight to do a BTEC National Diploma in Graphic Design at College, and then after that I went straight to university to study Graphic Design and New Media at Degree Level.... so I've pretty much been on a single road since 91.... knowing exactly what I wanted to do........

ArtMan617 it's cool that you know what you want to do at a reasonably young age............ definitely consider design workshops over the summer......... these will give you valuble exposure to design....... then certainly when you've finished High School, definitely consider some kind of higher education course......... although I don't believe it is essential to do so...... those that don't require it, are unbelieveably naturally talented are very few and far between..... and most design consultancies still value a degree in design or a design related field...... so there's that advantage as well.......

Read up on typography.... there are so many books out there that even listing them will be futile...... if you have a decent design bookshop near you visit them...... and ask a member of staff to recommend books....... (most design bookstore staff are highly knowledgeable about the subject) also read up on colour theory and colour psychology...........

Learn as much software as you can......... I can only speak about London's current demands on designers, and basically the skills that are most in demand and will get you the best money will require you to not only be profficient in graphic design, but also have knowledge of the web, interactivity, DV, animation, database, raw coding, client liason skills.... ultimately the more skills you have the more attractive you will be to a prospective employer.......

And lastly enjoy it........ design should be fun........ not the usual 9 to 5 hell that other jobs are........ :)

[ArtMan617]

Thank you all for your help. I really appreciate it. I'll check out the things that were mentioned and hopefully I'll be able to start doing some jobs...

-ArtMan617

[DidotCicero]

Artman, if you're still in school try get involved in the school paper (if you have one, that is). It will put you right into the business: Preparing for print, deadlines, typography, graphics etc. It will give you valuable experience.

Don't forget to talk to your printer. He will always be willing to learn you extra skills, since this will be in his benefit (less problems with printing,when files are ok the first time).
As you will discover graphic design is more than just Photoshop. There's also a need to master QuarkXpress (or Adobe Indesign or Pagemaker) and Illustrator (or Freehand). You will need to understand the several printing processes and how to prepare your artwork for those different processes.
And , as allready mentioned you should get a feeling for colour and typography.
Like a surgeon has to know about the blood vessels and the bones before he can cut you.

Suppose you don't have a schoolpaper, then try talking to your local printer. Maybe he can help you with some kind of a job. And there may also be some local non-profit organisations that might need someone to design their newsletter or logo or something. It won't make you rich in money, but in experience!
I'm sure there are lots of books in your local bookshop/library that can help you with that. Unfortunally books on graphic design aren't cheap, try secondhandshops if you have to.

Golden rule: always talk to your printer first about what files to deliver (300 dpi photoshop files, or Quarkfiles). Don't make your printer your enemy.

And just like iGAV said: don't forget to have fun. To me it's the best job in the world, even if I make more hours than people in other jobs.

[Dr. Distortion]

I'm studying at the Industrial Design department of Eindhoven University of Technology (http://www.tue.nl/en_index.html). The purpose of this study isn't to become a graphics artist, but to make the link between techs and artists; to make them work well together in a multidisciplinary team. I believe there's still quite some demand for this kind of engineer (MSc) in companies, because this entire department was founded a year ago on request of Dutch companies (Philips, Oce, Ericsson etc.) Let's just hope there will still be a demand for Industrial Designers in 4 years, when I finish this study.

-Dr. D.

[iGav]

Originally posted by Dr. Distortion
I'm studying at the Industrial Design department of Eindhoven University of Technology (http://www.tue.nl/en_index.html). The purpose of this study isn't to become a graphics artist, but to make the link between techs and artists; to make them work well together in a multidisciplinary team. I believe there's still quite some demand for this kind of engineer (MSc) in companies, because this entire department was founded a year ago on request of Dutch companies (Philips, Oce, Ericsson etc.) Let's just hope there will still be a demand for Industrial Designers in 4 years, when I finish this study.

-Dr. D.

I'd love to do a course in Industrial Product Design.... one of my friends studied a Product Design course at the same time I was studying Graphic Design and New Media........ some of the work she was doing was amazing....... especially going into the science and engineering side of things........

Personally I think there will always be a demand for creative designers no matter what the field........

What kind of stuff you working on?????

[beatle888]

Originally posted by iH8Quark


:rolleyes:

This is a typical HR ********* excuse to pay extremely talented people a miserably low salary. By the time you get to an art director or creative director level, you have to have just as much marketing wisdom (more, actually) as any branded Marketing Director out there. Plus you have to have great design, management, and communication skills. And designers are BY FAR the most lobored and productive people in the "office job" grouping.

So don't let excuses like above hold you down. Know what you're worth, and be confident about it.

;)


THAT WAS EXACTLY my thought when I read that post.....I'm so sick of that
dumb ass mentality. I work for a few agencies in the Los Angeles and Orange
County area and let me tell you the Designers, Art Directors, play such a
major role and their never left to be just artists. These are valuable
employees, or should be, it's not like they just dip their brush in some ink
and flick their wrist....damn dumb ass non creatives will never understand
or think that salaries over 65k are justified.....anyway, freelancing i charge
$35hr. for quark production and $60hr. high end PhotoShop and Design

OH YEA, I almost forgot.....what about all the software that one studies as
an artist as well? ALL of the freakin companies I've been at the freakin
NON CREATIVES dont even know how to run their computer except for the
repetative task they do all day. Designers, hell even production artist
know PHOTOSHOP, QUARK, ILLUSTRATOR, WORD (what an easy app), FLASH,
AFTEREFFECTS, come on and thats just the techi stuff they know. Then you
got Design + Style, Trend, Visionary, Usability, Marketing, Communication,
Management skills, all while your being creative. ok im done.

[edgecurve]

HR is the same all over it sounds. Lame justifications for screwing people over. But I digress...

Anyway, I have a day job but I also have some free time and Mac at home. I'd like to start doing small projects. My question is this, where are some of the places contract work can be found? What resources are used finding this type of work? Guru.com, elance?

I suppose these might be trade secrets in the "not what you know but who you know" world but I'd thought I'd ask anyway.

Scott

[mcrain]

Originally posted by beatle888
These are valuable employees, or should be, it's not like they just dip their brush in some ink and flick their wrist....damn dumb ass non creatives will never understand or think that salaries over 65k are justified.....anyway, freelancing i charge $35hr. for quark production and $60hr. high end PhotoShop and Design

A high salary, IMO, would only be justified if the person actually puts out good work, consistently, on-budget, and on-time. The problem I see is that "creative" types have a difficult time explaining what they do, how they do it, and how long it takes to do.

One "creative" person may come up with a great idea (along with sketches or whatever) in a few minutes, and the other person may take 2 weeks. Am I, as a "suit" supposed to pay by the hour for that? Nope.

The problem as I see it is that you creative types "appear" to be just people who sit around drinking coffee and wondering whether it would look cool if a teapot could talk to a coffeepot. On top of that, there is a perception that many of you partake of illegal substances.

As a "suit," I have a difficult time with the prospect of paying someone $35/hr or $60/hr to sit around stoned.

I'd rather pay for the outcome or result because the process of coming up with the result is so unclear.

As for software, who cares what you know how to use. That's your job. If you can't use the tools of your trade, you shouldn't be doing what you do. Your statement is almost as stupid as a plumber saying a doctor is stupid because the doctor doesn't know how to use a pipewrench.

My point isn't to say what you do isn't valuable, it's just that there is a difficulty in explaining the value of how you do what you do. Doctors charge by procedure, lawyers charge a % or by their time, many other professionals that "do something" charge by their time. Creativity is hard to "time." I mean, how do you bill a client for something that came to you while sleeping?

[zed]

hey eye,

I live in Baton Rouge and will be moving to New Orleans probably before the end of August in search of a graphic design job. I was wondering if you have any advice to give to someone just coming into the city. Any info about where to look for a job and which jobs to avoid would be greatly appreciated. I have a design degree from LSU and what I feel to be a pretty strong portfolio...

anyway... anything helps.

btw if you dont mind i might email you to ask a few more questions about the area that we are thinking of moving to and such as that, but i will wait for a reply first :)

Thanks,
Seth

[gernb]

Originally posted by mcrain

The problem as I see it is that you creative types "appear" to be just people who sit around drinking coffee and wondering whether it would look cool if a teapot could talk to a coffeepot. On top of that, there is a perception that many of you partake of illegal substances.


My point isn't to say what you do isn't valuable, it's just that there is a difficulty in explaining the value of how you do what you do. B]

i'm just a designer...so I'm probably stoned...but it seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

maybe you under estimate the inherent value of art. quality design moves people, stir emotions, and done on the commercial side...sells products. if you can put a price tag on bull sh**ting consultants or VP's of whatever, you can definitely put a fair price tag on design work.

BTW: in my experience, managers and accountants have much duller lives in general, and as a result, a greater need to blow weed to numb themselves to their own lame existence.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by edgecurve
HR is the same all over it sounds. Lame justifications for screwing people over. But I digress...

Scott

why do you think i left hr even though i had a ba degree in the topic?

it is a bunch of bulls*** and artists are treated like the bottom of the barrel

i was an artist for 18 years before i finished school so that is where my loyalties lie...and i am still an artist, but in the musical sense

hr types to have skills, but knowing what an artist is (and the dedication it takes) is not one of them;)

[bonehead]

mcrain:

I'd rather pay for the outcome or result because the process of coming up with the result is so unclear.

You could say the exact same thing about attorneys. I know attorneys that bring reading material with them on airplanes so they can bill for the time they're flying. If a designer or some other creative type is sitting drinking coffee and they're drawing on their napkin or thinking about the best layout for the copy, they are working just as much as the attorney who is reading a contract on an airplane. In both cases the process of coming up with the result in unclear but in the end they both produce results.

One "creative" person may come up with a great idea (along with sketches or whatever) in a few minutes, and the other person may take 2 weeks. Am I, as a "suit" supposed to pay by the hour for that? Nope.

Why not? I'm not trying to contradict you, I'm curious why you couldn't pay someone hourly.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by zed

btw if you dont mind i might email you to ask a few more questions about the area that we are thinking of moving to and such as that, but i will wait for a reply first :)

absolutely man...I just came across this post and I'm about to go to bed...so I'll probably talk to u tomorrow about it...no problem ;)