Apple Policy of Threats to Prevent Phone Swaps

[JimAtLaw]

I took my iPhone 3G to the Genius Bar last weekend after suffering repeated dropped calls with 5 bars signal over the past few months.

The "Genius" ran a diagnostic on my phone and showed multiple dropped calls this week, but not as many as I experienced in some other weeks, and stated that dropping a few calls a day is "normal." Hmmm, the Verizon phone I had for the previous 5 years dropped probably 10 calls a year, but ok...

Much worse, she also said she'd hate to swap my phone for another phone given that I was "experiencing such great battery life," directly implying that if she gave me a replacement phone, I would get one with a defective battery.

Interesting that Apple seems to be adopting a policy of threats of even further reduced service and functionality to keep people from swapping malfunctioning phones under warranty. Paying for AppleCare seems like a really poor choice in that context (and I'm not even past the base warranty period...).

[Bacong]

I don't think she was implying that you'd get one with bad battery life.

[samcraig]

I took my iPhone 3G to the Genius Bar last weekend after suffering repeated dropped calls with 5 bars signal over the past few months.

The "Genius" ran a diagnostic on my phone and showed multiple dropped calls this week, but not as many as I experienced in some other weeks, and stated that dropping a few calls a day is "normal." Hmmm, the Verizon phone I had for the previous 5 years dropped probably 10 calls a year, but ok...

Much worse, she also said she'd hate to swap my phone for another phone given that I was "experiencing such great battery life," directly implying that if she gave me a replacement phone, I would get one with a defective battery.

Interesting that Apple seems to be adopting a policy of threats of even further reduced service and functionality to keep people from swapping malfunctioning phones under warranty. Paying for AppleCare seems like a really poor choice in that context (and I'm not even past the base warranty period...).


a) you're surprised that with all the ridiculous returns that Apple is actually trying to only replace phones which NEED replacing?

b) You are interpreting her comment. That's not what she said. She said you're experience great battery life. That could mean a dozen different things other than a threat of worse performance.

I'm sure I'll get blasted - but I don't care. This is exactly why all the people seeking perfect phones who go to return theirs for scratches they put in and all the other nitpicky things are screwing it up for legitimate issues.

[feelthefire]

I think you are reading WAY too much into that, but even so, that's not a threat even if it were true.

[uberamd]

I don't think she was implying that you'd get one with bad battery life.

I second that. I don't think she was implying that at all.

[-aggie-]

I don't think she was implying that you'd get one with bad battery life.

+1 I also think the OP should change the title of this thread, for sure. We could argue about whether she implied something, but she definitely wasn't threatening.

[pelicanflip]

Wow paranoid much?

[uberamd]

You notice his name is JimAtLaw, which makes me think he is a lawyer of some sort. This "she used a threat" comment sounds like something a lawyer would say, doesn't it?

[pelicanflip]

You notice his name is JimAtLaw, which makes me think he is a lawyer of some sort. This "she used a threat" comment sounds like something a lawyer would say, doesn't it?

"Intellectual Property and Technology Attorney"


Very much so, yes.

[Merkie]

She's stating that you're experiencing above average battery life (hence "amazing"), when you get a new phone chances are that you might be experiencing average battery life (average is worse than above average). It's just something for you to think about.

Besides, the dropped calls issue is something related to AT&T, dropped calls issues are mainly a US thing. I've never experienced a drop call in my life where I live, and I've never heard complaints about dropped calls either (certainly not with the iPhone).

Summarizing: you're whining.

[jessica.]

It is people like you who ultimately suffer from the people who return their phones due to the .005mm gap between the bezel and the glass. For that, I feel sorry for you and anyone else who encounters a real issue that requires replacement.

However, threat? Are you serious? I cannot see a threat in her statement.


Just an FYI: No part of my post was intended to be threatening. I'm just being clear now in case you read into it.

[joeconvert]

Besides, the dropped calls issue is something related to AT&T, dropped calls issues are mainly a US thing. I've never experienced a drop call in my life where I live, and I've never heard complaints about dropped calls either (certainly not with the iPhone).

Summarizing: you're whining.

You can't back that up. Having used the original iPhone,a Nokia E71 and now my wife's old 3G, I can say that the worse performing on the network has been the 3G. The EDGE iPhone wasn't bad, but both were far inferior to the E71, so while AT&T has it's problems in some areas (like ALL carriers), I am a bit sick of people placing the poor performance of the 3G on AT&T's shoulders.

[pelicanflip]

It is people like you who ultimately suffer from the people who return their phones due to the .005mm gap between the bezel and the glass. For that, I feel sorry for you and anyone else who encounters a real issue that requires replacement.

However, threat? Are you serious? I cannot see a threat in her statement.


Just an FYI: No part of my post was intended to be threatening. I'm just being clear now in case you read into it.

LOL oh that made me laugh. +1 :D

[gloss]

And this is why people don't like lawyers.

[bstpierre]

You can't back that up. Having used the original iPhone,a Nokia E71 and now my wife's old 3G, I can say that the worse performing on the network has been the 3G. The EDGE iPhone wasn't bad, but both were far inferior to the E71, so while AT&T has it's problems in some areas (like ALL carriers), I am a bit sick of people placing the poor performance of the 3G on AT&T's shoulders.

How many of those phones use the 3G network (versus the edge network). I don't know about the E71 phone so this is a legitimate question. They are separate networks so one can perform poorly and the other can perform well (in a specific area) and it can still be the carriers fault. I am not making any claims, just pointing out the possibility.

[lostprophet894]

My girlfriend and I have both used 3Gs in the Northern Virginia area and I've never had a dropped call. I've never heard her complain of anything either. I now have a 3GS that has yet to drop a call.

I have a friend who lives in South Riding (about half hour West) that just bought a 3GS and he's already complaining about dropped calls.

It's the network, not the phone.

[uberamd]

You can't back that up. Having used the original iPhone,a Nokia E71 and now my wife's old 3G, I can say that the worse performing on the network has been the 3G. The EDGE iPhone wasn't bad, but both were far inferior to the E71, so while AT&T has it's problems in some areas (like ALL carriers), I am a bit sick of people placing the poor performance of the 3G on AT&T's shoulders.
I have an E71 and I get a worse signal in comparison to my 3GS when they are side by side. Hm.
And this is why people don't like lawyers.
+1, lawyers tend to spin things to make them seem worse than they are for the benefit of their clients/themselves.

[mcdj]

OMG! I can't believe she said she was going to kill your family! She's probably an Al Qaeda operative. I suggest you contact your local FBI office.

[stevetim]

Verizon
ATT

They are different companies. In your area, ATT may not be as strong and may drop more calls. Get over it.:rolleyes:

[The Californian]

I think she was actually trying to help you out, more often than not dropped calls is due to the network exempli gratia tower updates, towers down, buildings or signal interference in your area. If she were to replace your ( what I'm assuming is a NEW instead of REFURBISHED ) iPhone for a refurbished there is a chance that you will get one with STANDARD battery life, id est AVERAGE battery life instead of the GREAT batter life, id est ABOVE AVERAGE battery life you are currently receiving.

Did she actually DENY you a replacement? Or did she merely suggest you give your iPhone another chance and possibly do some research about signal quality and number of dropped calls other customers with the same provider in your area are receiving with different devices?

Just a thought.
DID I USE ENOUGH LATIN?

[gloss]

My girlfriend and I have both used 3Gs in the Northern Virginia area and I've never had a dropped call. I've never heard her complain of anything either. I now have a 3GS that has yet to drop a call.

I have a friend who lives in South Riding (about half hour West) that just bought a 3GS and he's already complaining about dropped calls.

It's the network, not the phone.

I have to admit, service can be a little shaky out here in Centreville, but more in a hit-or-miss sense than thoroughly bad. The further in toward D.C. you go, the better it typically gets. I'd like to see them make some 3G speed improvements, though. The throughput is downright embarrassing.

[xerenthar]

third tier law school huh

[JimAtLaw]

Boy, the apologists are out today.

When she said she would hate for me to lose the excellent battery life, (a) she had no idea about the battery life I'm experiencing, which is far from great, I often get less than a day and she had not asked about it, so she could not fairly come to the conclusion mine was better than average, and (b) she was clearly suggesting that if I got a replacement phone, it would likely be worse. If you don't want to call it a "threat", this is pure wordplay. She attempted to keep me from swapping phones when experiencing multiple dropped calls per day, often when showing 5 bars reception, by telling me a replacement would lose functionality. Of course, what am I thinking, Apple is always right, I guess I *SHOULD* drop multiple calls per day at 5 bars, and phone replacements under warranty *SHOULD* come with worse batteries than the phones they're replacing, and it's entirely proper of Apple to let me know I shouldn't replace a malfunctioning phone because the new one will have problems the current one does not. Back to reeducation camp for me!

[samcraig]

Boy, the apologists are out today.

When she said she would hate for me to lose the excellent battery life, (a) she had no idea about the battery life I'm experiencing, which is far from great, I often get less than a day and she had not asked about it, so she could not fairly come to the conclusion mine was better than average, and (b) she was clearly suggesting that if I got a replacement phone, it would likely be worse. If you don't want to call it a "threat", this is pure wordplay (a threat is a potential harm, and she suggested that harm would befall me if I got a replacement phone). She attempted to keep me from swapping phones when experiencing multiple dropped calls per day, often when showing 5 bars reception, by telling me a replacement would lose functionality. Of course, what am I thinking, Apple is always right, I guess I *SHOULD* drop multiple calls per day at 5 bars, and phone replacements under warranty *SHOULD* come with worse batteries than the phones they're replacing, and it's entirely proper of Apple to let me know I shouldn't replace a malfunctioning phone because the new one will have problems the current one does not. Back to reeducation camp for me!

And you went to law school?

Let's assume your a) is correct and SHE has no basis of comparison then your b) is impossible because how could she imply yours would be worse or how could it be worse if she had no clue what a) was. And even if she did, you, as the smart lawyer you think you are, why didn't you state clearly your battery life and/or ask her to clarify what she meant. Or even ask her how she would know what your battery life is?

It sounds like you are backpeddling to me. Or something else is going on

What harm would befall you? Are you classifying the possibility that a phone with less battery usage is HARMING you? Especially given that she didn't know nor did you what the old vs new even was?

What doesn't add up is - if you're so disgruntled - why did you even leave the store if you weren't happy with the result? Why not pursue it further.

Again - something sounds fishy here. Why rollover in the store but assert here that they've threatened you and were the evil empire you make them out to be?

No one here is an apologist. You speak (your whole post) in hyperbole.

[alFR]

Much worse, she also said she'd hate to swap my phone for another phone given that I was "experiencing such great battery life," directly implying that if she gave me a replacement phone, I would get one with a defective battery.

she had no idea about the battery life I'm experiencing, which is far from great, I often get less than a day and she had not asked about it, so she could not fairly come to the conclusion mine was better than average

Logic fail.

[notjustgc]

She's probably just fed up with all the whiny kids from the MacRumors forums and elsewhere coming in and swapping their phones for non-existent issues...and even more fed up with them bringing their replacements back when they have more "issues" to complain about.

I agree, it was all wordplay. What she really meant to say would sound a bit more like this:

"Sir, AT&T sucks and everyone knows it. You ought to know (and I think you do, deep down) that a new iPhone isn't going to fix this for you. Furthermore, you sound like the whiny type, and I don't want you getting a vaguely yellow screen or microscopically misaligned bezel to come back and complain about in order to vent your continuing frustrations with AT&T, or your nagging wife, or the fact that you are a lawyer, or whatever. Thanks, I knew you'd understand."

[rKunda]

No one here is an apologist. You speak (your whole post) in hyperbole.

Your whole post was great. This line summed up the OP's thread perfectly.

Ever watched a movie with a film student? Ever noticed how they can't shut up and watch the movie with out picking apart cuts, scenes, edits, etc? "Jump cut! Jump cut!"

The exposure to the process, often times, removes their ability to see things from the perspective of the average person. I've found this to be, at least partially, true of some lawyers (though many really are decent people... shocker I know). Everything is seen through legal eyes, and I think you can clearly see that "Jump cut!" leaning in this thread. "She threatened me!"

OP - If you read the threads on this forum, you'll find no shortage of people to either slam Apple for legitimate mistakes, or two, to support people rightly angry at something. Take a guess why "the apologists are out in full force" against you. I'll give you a hint... it's not a fault in the "genius" (Scare quotes!).

[DEdwards2204]

It is people like you who ultimately suffer from the people who return their phones due to the .005mm gap between the bezel and the glass. For that, I feel sorry for you and anyone else who encounters a real issue that requires replacement.

However, threat? Are you serious? I cannot see a threat in her statement.


Just an FYI: No part of my post was intended to be threatening. I'm just being clear now in case you read into it.

How come the gap gets smaller every time someone criticizes it?

And this is why people don't like lawyers.

Why do people always look at lawyers all the same? I could understand basing an opinion of a lawyer off of who they work for and what type of firm it is, but judging them solely on their base occupation seems pretty ignorant to me.

[JimAtLaw]

It's pretty funny that everyone jumps on my occupation. Ok geniuses, how did she conclude I was experiencing "such great battery life" that I would be giving up with a replacement? (And the fact that I didn't challenge her on her false assertion is in no way relevant to why she asserted it.)

It's funny, the whole reason I went to the Apple store to have this looked at in the first place was that on another thread a while ago, I posted about the issues I was having and some folks responded that this sounded abnormal even for AT&T, and that I should bring my phone in to get checked out. Of course, if I brought it in to report that it drops calls repeatedly at 5 bars, often many times per day, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer, and when the support person discourages me from getting a new one by telling me that the battery life on a replacement phone will be less than my current phone (without so much as asking about my existing battery life), again, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer for thinking that shouldn't be so. Silly me.

[jessica.]

It's pretty funny that everyone jumps on my occupation. Ok geniuses, how did she conclude I was experiencing "such great battery life" that I would be giving up with a replacement? (And the fact that I didn't challenge her on her false assertion is in no way relevant to why she asserted it.)

It's funny, the whole reason I went to the Apple store to have this looked at in the first place was that on another thread a while ago, I posted about the issues I was having and some folks responded that this sounded abnormal even for AT&T, and that I should bring my phone in to get checked out. Of course, if I brought it in to report that it drops calls repeatedly at 5 bars, often many times per day, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer, and when the support person discourages me from getting a new one by telling me that the battery life on a replacement phone will be less than my current phone (without so much as asking about my existing battery life), again, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer for thinking that shouldn't be so. Silly me.

Well genius, being one of the few who didn't jump on your occupation, I'll say that you deemed what appears to be a mild suggestion a threat. You see, Apple has been experiencing (based on very unscientific data) a high number of returns based on poor battery life in their iPhones. It would appear that people are not getting at least 75% of the advertised spec. My guess is that she was simply saying that it's possible you'll experience another issue on another phone. However, that was her opinion because there is no real data that I can tell showing whether or not there is a true failure in the current gen iPhones or not when it comes to battery life. These numbers are most likely collected at Apple and not to be published. Therefore, it is my opinion that she was simply saying that there is a chance. There was no indication based on your statement that she did, in fact, threaten you.

The members here are attacking your statement that you were threatened. Based on your story that appears to be far from the truth. The members here or on another forum agreed (as I did too) that your dropped calls are not within spec and that you should take it to Apple. However, my first course of action in that case would always be AT&T (or your carrier). You see, AT&T can reset your network and swap out your sim. To the extent that does not work you should head to Apple as there could be an issue with your phone.

It is inconsequential for the girl at Apple to actually swap your phone out. I do not believe that she would have completely refused. You're probably talking about some girl who is at least 10 years your junior working a retail job. Just because they have little Apples on their shirts does not suddenly make them super retail employees. Again, I wholeheartedly believe she was simply making a statement based on the influx of customers coming in complaining about battery life on their phone.

I would sacrifice an hour of battery life for little to no dropped calls. I should not have to give up something to get something else, but frankly that seems to be how it works.

How come the gap gets smaller every time someone criticizes it?

Because it is funny to me how people detect these things as if they're going to cause cancer. I've been eligible for an upgrade since launch day. I usually wait to see what the tin foil hat kool-aid drinkers have to say about the device before I plop down my hard earned welfare dollars.

[uberamd]

It's pretty funny that everyone jumps on my occupation. Ok geniuses, how did she conclude I was experiencing "such great battery life" that I would be giving up with a replacement? (And the fact that I didn't challenge her on her false assertion is in no way relevant to why she asserted it.)

It's funny, the whole reason I went to the Apple store to have this looked at in the first place was that on another thread a while ago, I posted about the issues I was having and some folks responded that this sounded abnormal even for AT&T, and that I should bring my phone in to get checked out. Of course, if I brought it in to report that it drops calls repeatedly at 5 bars, often many times per day, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer, and when the support person discourages me from getting a new one by telling me that the battery life on a replacement phone will be less than my current phone (without so much as asking about my existing battery life), again, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer for thinking that shouldn't be so. Silly me.

So she SPECIFICALLY said that your battery life would decrease on a new device? Word for word, she said that? What you are doing is making an assumption when in fact she never specifically said that, she was implying that she thought you were getting above normal battery life and that the replacement device might not get as good of battery life. How she came to that conclusion, I don't know. But again, I am not surprised you would take what she said and spin it into a threat. Not surprised at all.

[DEdwards2204]

I agree with you, it's just that the whole thing has been used as an insult so much and it's usually changed each time.

Back on topic, did she tell you she wouldn't exchange it, or did she advise you not to? I'm thinking she was confused by you having a 3G and all the complaints she's had about 3GS battery life.

[pelicanflip]

It's pretty funny that everyone jumps on my occupation. Ok geniuses, how did she conclude I was experiencing "such great battery life" that I would be giving up with a replacement? (And the fact that I didn't challenge her on her false assertion is in no way relevant to why she asserted it.)

It's funny, the whole reason I went to the Apple store to have this looked at in the first place was that on another thread a while ago, I posted about the issues I was having and some folks responded that this sounded abnormal even for AT&T, and that I should bring my phone in to get checked out. Of course, if I brought it in to report that it drops calls repeatedly at 5 bars, often many times per day, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer, and when the support person discourages me from getting a new one by telling me that the battery life on a replacement phone will be less than my current phone (without so much as asking about my existing battery life), again, I'm just a whiny, unreasonable lawyer for thinking that shouldn't be so. Silly me.

YOU'RE the one who was at the Apple Store, talking to the Genius who ran YOUR DIAGNOSTIC on YOUR IPHONE. Why are you asking us how she did the battery test?

Not only that, how in the world are we supposed to know what one Genius out of hundreds of them across the entire nation decided to do with your iPhone, in your specific case, at that given day and moment? Pointless argument, pointless question.


Most members here are questioning your story because you claim that she "threatened" you, which is obviously a wild accusation, when she was simply offering you one of your options. Keep the iPhone which has no other major defects and sacrifice a few dropped calls, or otherwise, get a replacement iPhone and potentially gain a few extra problems, such as lower battery life, uneven bezel, light leaks, cracks in the case, etc.


"some folks responded that this sounded abnormal even for AT&T"

If you knew that your CELL PHONE SERVICE was being dropped, why didn't you contact your CELL PHONE CARRIER. If your cable for your TV drops out on you, do you contact the TV company for a defective TV? No, you call up your cable company and question your issues with their services. What kind of backwards logic are you using?




In short, no, you are not a whiny unreasonable lawyer.

You're a whiny illogical customer who is reporting their issues to the wrong company, while making claims of being "threatened" by a young tech support Genius at the Apple Store who is trying to help you with your Cell Phone carrier service, which she does not even have to do.

[qawsed]

That was not a threat and if youthink it was your an idiot. Thats about all there is to it. All this phone swopping is astonishing.

[JimAtLaw]

Well genius, being one of the few who didn't jump on your occupation, I'll say that you deemed what appears to be a mild suggestion a threat. You see, Apple has been experiencing (based on very unscientific data) a high number of returns based on poor battery life in their iPhones. It would appear that people are not getting at least 75% of the advertised spec. My guess is that she was simply saying that it's possible you'll experience another issue on another phone. However, that was her opinion because there is no real data that I can tell showing whether or not there is a true failure in the current gen iPhones or not when it comes to battery life. These numbers are most likely collected at Apple and not to be published. Therefore, it is my opinion that she was simply saying that there is a chance. There was no indication based on your statement that she did, in fact, threaten you.

The members here are attacking your statement that you were threatened. Based on your story that appears to be far from the truth. The members here or on another forum agreed (as I did too) that your dropped calls are not within spec and that you should take it to Apple. However, my first course of action in that case would always be AT&T (or your carrier). You see, AT&T can reset your network and swap out your sim. To the extent that does not work you should head to Apple as there could be an issue with your phone.

It is inconsequential for the girl at Apple to actually swap your phone out. I do not believe that she would have completely refused. You're probably talking about some girl who is at least 10 years your junior working a retail job. Just because they have little Apples on their shirts does not suddenly make them super retail employees. Again, I wholeheartedly believe she was simply making a statement based on the influx of customers coming in complaining about battery life on their phone.

I would sacrifice an hour of battery life for little to no dropped calls. I should not have to give up something to get something else, but frankly that seems
From the very top of the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat): Threat: An act of coercion wherein a negative consequence is proposed to elicit response. So when she discouraged me from swapping my phone by suggesting that a replacement would have worse battery life, a negative consequence (reduced battery life) was proposed to elicit response (do not swap your phone).

Make all the hay you want about whether this is really a "threat," she was actively discouraging me from doing something by proposing a bad outcome for me if I pressed on. If one is in a fit about the word, the definition fits here.

She doesn't have to be threatening to "kill my family" to be threatening that what I get will be even worse if I insist on a replacement, and most of the people posting spiteful responses here are Apple apologists who just think I'm whining because it's Apple, so I should accept constant dropped calls in 5 bar signal areas as normal, and/or that I know "deep down) that a new iPhone isn't going to fix this."

Can you imagine going to a car dealer with a failed radiator under warranty and them telling you, if we fix this, the air conditioner won't work as well afterward? And this is supposed to be ok?! (I guess so, if it's Apple.) I swear, the Kool Aid around here truly astounds me sometimes.
"some folks responded that this sounded abnormal even for AT&T"

If you knew that your CELL PHONE SERVICE was being dropped, why didn't you contact your CELL PHONE CARRIER. If your cable for your TV drops out on you, do you contact the TV company for a defective TV? No, you call up your cable company and question your issues with their services. What kind of backwards logic are you using?

In short, no, you are not a whiny unreasonable lawyer.

You're a whiny illogical customer who is reporting their issues to the wrong company, while making claims of being "threatened" by a young tech support Genius at the Apple Store who is trying to help you with your Cell Phone carrier service, which she does not even have to do.
Ah, I see, so phones never have defects, only carriers. Now I understand!

[pelicanflip]

You said it's an act of coercion. Coercion - the act of compelling by force of authority

She has no authority. She was suggesting an option.

Fail for not being a lawyer, and fail for quoting wikipedia. What lawyer would quote wikipedia, lol.

[wowipod]

Dropped calls hmm I remember those days.

When I first got my 3G around a year ago I experienced a few dropped calls, but now with the various updates I am dropped call free, even in my area were I get 2-3 bars of non-3G or 1 bar of 3G I don't get that may dropped calls.

[LLL1424]

here we have another thread of posters who just seem to be rude and simple. the person just wanted to make a statement or get some feedback, not get stalkers and people assuming what job he/she does. i swear....ive never seen anything like this.

[samcraig]

From the very top of the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat): Threat: An act of coercion wherein a negative consequence is proposed to elicit response. So when she discouraged me from swapping my phone by suggesting that a replacement would have worse battery life, a negative consequence (reduced battery life) was proposed to elicit response (do not swap your phone).

Make all the hay you want about whether this is really a "threat," she was actively discouraging me from doing something by proposing a bad outcome for me if I pressed on.

She doesn't have to be threatening to "kill my family" to be threatening that what I get will be even worse if I insist on a replacement, and most of the people posting spiteful responses here are Apple apologists who just think I'm whining because it's Apple, so I should accept constant dropped calls in 5 bar signal areas as normal, and that I know "deep down) that a new iPhone isn't going to fix this."

Can you imagine going to a car dealer with a failed radiator under warranty and them telling you, if we fix this, the air conditioner won't work as well afterward? And this is supposed to be ok?! I swear, the Kool Aid around Apple truly astounds me sometimes.


A) Are you really quoting wikipedia? I could go in and edit that definition LOL

B) She did not COERCE you into anything. You made a decision which right now it sounds like you're having second thoughts about it.

C) As the other poster said - we have no idea what diagnostics she did on your phone. Did she do any? Was the phone with you at all times? Did she take it in the back to run some tests?

D) I still don't understand if you felt this was so wrong why you didn't ask to speak to a manager or swap your phone out - or as logic would dictate - call AT&T

E) She didn't say you'd get something worse? Did she say "If I swap this out, the phone you'll be getting WILL have more problems?" or Did she merely say it MAY. There's a big difference and I would think you, being the genius YOU are would know the difference. Fact is - you do know - you just want to rant anyway

F) How come anyone that looks at this "event" and doesn't agree with you or questions it is an apologist? Again - hyperbole and a cop out (BS) rant on your behalf.

The bottom line is - if you don't like the service you are getting on your phone a) call at&t and see what they can do and/or b) go back to the Apple Store and seek assistances from someone else

But coming on here and acting as if you were smited by apple is just silly.

[jessica.]

From the very top of the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat): Threat: An act of coercion wherein a negative consequence is proposed to elicit response. So when she discouraged me from swapping my phone by suggesting that a replacement would have worse battery life, a negative consequence (reduced battery life) was proposed to elicit response (do not swap your phone).

Make all the hay you want about whether this is really a "threat," she was actively discouraging me from doing something by proposing a bad outcome for me if I pressed on.

She doesn't have to be threatening to "kill my family" to be threatening that what I get will be even worse if I insist on a replacement, and most of the people posting spiteful responses here are Apple apologists who just think I'm whining because it's Apple, so I should accept constant dropped calls in 5 bar signal areas as normal, and that I know "deep down) that a new iPhone isn't going to fix this."

Can you imagine going to a car dealer with a failed radiator under warranty and them telling you, if we fix this, the air conditioner won't work as well afterward? And this is supposed to be ok?! (I guess so, if it's Apple.) I swear, the Kool Aid around here truly astounds me sometimes.


Gear down big rig.
I never said it was not a threat because murder was involved. Don't try to get into a battle of definitions with me here, there is really no point. I am well aware what a threat is, implied or otherwise. I said, and I will say it again, that I do not find her statement to be threatening. We're going to agree to disagree here but you and your paper hammer have a problem. Your phone is defective.

You can take my advice and go to AT&T, swap out the sim and reset the network, and spend a couple of days seeing if you get any positive results. If not, you can head to Apple.

The Apple apologists are wrong, but I think what you're getting is a pack of people who simply do not agree that what happened to you was at all a threat. Again, we're going to agree to disagree.

[samcraig]

here we have another thread of posters who just seem to be rude and simple. the person just wanted to make a statement or get some feedback, not get stalkers and people assuming what job he/she does. i swear....ive never seen anything like this.


You must identify with the OP - because some of your posts wreak of inaccuracy as well.

[pelicanflip]

Gear down big rig.
I never said it was not a threat because murder was involved. Don't try to get into a battle of definitions with me here, there is really no point. I am well aware what a threat is, implied or otherwise. I said, and I will say it again, that I do not find her statement to be threatening. We're going to agree to disagree here but you and your paper hammer have a problem. Your phone is defective.

You can take my advice and go to AT&T, swap out the sim and reset the network, and spend a couple of days seeing if you get any positive results. If not, you can head to Apple.

The Apple apologists are wrong, but I think what you're getting is a pack of people who simply do not agree that what happened to you was at all a threat. Again, we're going to agree to disagree.

To JimAtLaw, I never said that phones never have defects or anything close to that effect, so don't put words in my mouth.

I simply stated that you phone service is most likely causing you problems, not the phone itself.

And +1 to the quote.

In order to resolve your issue, your best bet would be to go to your cell phone service provider to try to solve your problem.

Afterwards, if the problem persists, I'd check back with Apple.

[TheNightPhoenix]

she had no idea about the battery life I'm experiencing,


The "Genius" ran a diagnostic on my phone and showed multiple dropped calls this week,

I suspect she might be able to see charge cycles etc and see that you are getting above average battery life. If it logs dropped calls I'm sure it'll log other info.

[alFR]

From the very top of the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat): Threat: An act of coercion wherein a negative consequence is proposed to elicit response. So when she discouraged me from swapping my phone by suggesting that a replacement would have worse battery life, a negative consequence (reduced battery life) was proposed to elicit response (do not swap your phone).

Never in the field of human conflict has one throwaway comment been blown up into something so massive by so few. :rolleyes:

[gloss]

Why do people always look at lawyers all the same? I could understand basing an opinion of a lawyer off of who they work for and what type of firm it is, but judging them solely on their base occupation seems pretty ignorant to me.

(Several of my close friends are lawyers. But they, apparently, have a sense of humor, unlike Mr. Cease-and-Desist here.)

[ozzyman500]

I've had my 3G since October. That's almost a full year now and I haven't had one single dropped call! And yes I'm on AT&T.

[JimAtLaw]

Several of most intrusive posts have apparently been removed but I will not be participating further in this discussion (or in this forum going forward) due to some scary and creepy personal harassment/stalking behavior. To those who attempted productive discussion rather than irrelevant personal insults and harassment, thanks.

[DEdwards2204]

I'm just saying that most people just assume a lawyer is a douche bag just because he or she is a lawyer

[lavinci]

I think the word threat started this all.

[cmaier]

I don't think she was implying that you'd get one with bad battery life.

and a stray remark by one employee does not a policy make. sounds like she was just trying to be helpful.

[cmaier]

You notice his name is JimAtLaw, which makes me think he is a lawyer of some sort. This "she used a threat" comment sounds like something a lawyer would say, doesn't it?

I'm an intellectual property lawyer, and I wouldn't say that was a threat. I would say it was a helpful comment.

[xerenthar]

It's pretty funny that everyone jumps on my occupation.

i did because i'm in law school and i can't imagine anyone at my school making these kinds of illogical fallacious arguments and using the word "threat" knowing full well what it means and then saying OH WELL THAT'S JUST WORDPLAY while having your userid indicate your profession is wordplay.

cooley?

[LLL1424]

Several of most intrusive posts have apparently been removed but I will not be participating further in this discussion (or in this forum going forward) due to some scary and creepy personal harassment/stalking behavior. To those who attempted productive discussion rather than irrelevant personal insults and harassment, thanks.


I'm sure most of you won't agree but I'll say it nonetheless.

Isnt it sad when someone who just is expressing a concern or just wants to start a topic is judged by the username they have chosen? now the user doesnt even want to be a part of the forum anymore and im about to join the list. im stunned and honestly turned off by the way some of you guys act on this forum. if you ask something or say anything against apple, you better watch out. the apple police will come get you and eat you apart. ive noticed a trend with this forum, if you ask something like....my phone fell.....what can i do.....youll get smart remarks. if you state an opinion, you will be ridiculed for thinking that. its insane and sad. i might just look at other forums for my iphone information/concerns/questions. ive never had to do this on any forum before. so me having to feel this way is pretty drastic. maybe people should just help each other instead of ridicule them or judge them. i mean...its just a suggestion right? there is no need to blast the guy or girl because she or he is a lawyer, he was at apple store and felt the way he did. you werent there so why judge the guy or girl? maybe some of you guys make valid statements and some of us will be wrong but dont harass someone. its not right. dont post there information out there. lets just enjoy the forum and be happy, is that too much to ask for? :)

[samcraig]

I'm sure most of you won't agree but I'll say it nonetheless.

Isnt it sad when someone who just is expressing a concern or just wants to start a topic is judged by the username they have chosen? now the user doesnt even want to be a part of the forum anymore and im about to join the list. im stunned and honestly turned off by the way some of you guys act on this forum. if you ask something or say anything against apple, you better watch out. the apple police will come get you and eat you apart. ive noticed a trend with this forum, if you ask something like....my phone fell.....what can i do.....youll get smart remarks. if you state an opinion, you will be ridiculed for thinking that. its insane and sad. i might just look at other forums for my iphone information/concerns/questions. ive never had to do this on any forum before. so me having to feel this way is pretty drastic. maybe people should just help each other instead of ridicule them or judge them. i mean...its just a suggestion.

It's not the apple police. It's the stupidity police. If someone drops there phone and posts here asking if they can return it for a new one, they will get slammed. Not because of anything other than they would think it was a GOOD IDEA to post on a message board asking something so silly.

There are VERY knowledgable people on this message board who provide excellent advice and their expertise.

And the behavior on this message board is no different than 90 percent or more of any other community. So if you're looking for bunnies and snowflakes, you're going to be disappointed. Get thicker skin.

[LLL1424]

bunnies and snowflakes sam? no one should get "slammed". thats not what a forum should be about. it should be based on helping someone and guiding them the right way instead of blasting someone. that just makes users want to go elsewhere. im not looking for bunnies and snowflakes but more of a little respect. i know some of the users on this forum are quite smart. im not doubting that one bit but blasting someone isnt needed. how about just telling them what they can or cant do. in other words, helping them. i cant stress the world "help" any further. "slamming" people" are for those who are immature, the only thing slamming is the ignorance and rudeness some people have on this forum. now dont get me wrong, i love macrumors. as you can see, ive been a part of this site since 2005. im not too active but i just see this way too much.

[samcraig]

I agree up to a point.

The "blasting" came after the OP started, dare I say, namecalling. Oh not abusive - just throwing around the word like apologists around and others. People react to that. And the OP is a big boy. He's not a 12 year old who was ridiculed here. He's obviously an educated person who either regrets not taking a stand at the apple store or doesn't like it when someone points out that the error might be on his end.

There was plenty of good advice in this thread - like going back to the store or contacting AT&T.

[vinay427]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/7A341)

My girlfriend and I have both used 3Gs in the Northern Virginia area and I've never had a dropped call. I've never heard her complain of anything either. I now have a 3GS that has yet to drop a call.

I have a friend who lives in South Riding (about half hour West) that just bought a 3GS and he's already complaining about dropped calls.

It's the network, not the phone.

I think it's both. My 3G drops many calls, much more than my family's LG Shine and Curve. They still drop quite a few calls, but not nearly as much as mine.

[LLL1424]

I agree up to a point.

The "blasting" came after the OP started, dare I say, namecalling. Oh not abusive - just throwing around the word like apologists around and others. People react to that. And the OP is a big boy. He's not a 12 year old who was ridiculed here. He's obviously an educated person who either regrets not taking a stand at the apple store or doesn't like it when someone points out that the error might be on his end.

There was plenty of good advice in this thread - like going back to the store or contacting AT&T.

Agreed, there was some good advice. and thats all the user wanted but someone decided to just put all there information out there......where the user worked and...just wow....it scared the person away. thats not good. its completely immature but nonetheless...

[vinay427]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/7A341)

here we have another thread of posters who just seem to be rude and simple. the person just wanted to make a statement or get some feedback, not get stalkers and people assuming what job he/she does. i swear....ive never seen anything like this.

+391539261!!! People are trying to get something into other people's heads when they should understand this first.

[za9ra22]

Agreed, there was some good advice. and thats all the user wanted but someone decided to just put all there information out there......where the user worked and...just wow....it scared the person away. thats not good. its completely immature but nonetheless...

I suspect it wasn't so much having the personal details posted that scared the OP away - after all, he subsequently posted indicating that the offending message has (rightfully) been removed. I think it was the knowledge that his original premise, that he (and by inference, others users) were being threatened into not seeking to exchange faulty devices, was demonstrably nonsensical, and that to continue to pursue the point was making him look increasingly silly.

Issue of dropped calls and iPhone/network reliability are entirely valid and worth discussing, but building an entire argument on a turn of phrase of one individual in one place at one time hardly helps to build a viable case for the point being made. In reality, given the proposition being mooted at the outset, the thread should have ended after 2 or 3 posts at most!

[patrickdunn]

It's not the apple police. It's the stupidity police. If someone drops there phone and posts here asking if they can return it for a new one, they will get slammed. Not because of anything other than they would think it was a GOOD IDEA to post on a message board asking something so silly.

There are VERY knowledgable people on this message board who provide excellent advice and their expertise.

And the behavior on this message board is no different than 90 percent or more of any other community. So if you're looking for bunnies and snowflakes, you're going to be disappointed. Get thicker skin.

Did somebody say bunnies! You can find them here!
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182794&d=1247601525

[braddick]

Jim A. Law,

If your strategy with her is the same as it was with us here I can see why you failed so miserably.

[JimAtLaw]

I've been monitoring this to make sure the people who were going after me were not reposting my personal info, and am going to respond one more time publicly here because there are some misimpressions that I want to correct.

1. I did call AT&T before going to the Apple store, though I don't think this is at all relevant to the Apple Genuis's response. Several people assumed and posted responses assuming or stating that I hadn't - an assumption that was false. I have already actually received a credit (2 months ago) from AT&T for service problems, but they cannot explain why my phone drops calls over and over even with 5 bars of signal. And I have a new SIM card in it.

2. If you read the thread from the beginning, you'll see I did not call out the apologists until people were already calling me a whiner and making the thread about me and lawyers.

3. It's notable to me that none of the people who responded with such vitriol disagreed with the Genius saying that repeatedly dropping calls with 5 bars signal was normal!

It's also interesting that though none of them observed the conversation, and thus could not have heard either the rest of the conversation or the tone, none can possibly conceive that an Apple employee would actually be trying to keep me from swapping phones other than to be helpful to me. I guess Apple is never anything but helpful!

4. It was very much (a) people making this very personal and (b) much worse and scarier, seeking out and posting my personal information here that has pushed me off. I know this is a gathering place for Apple fans who might not want to hear complaint stories, but the behavior I have seen in this thread is outside of the norm even for internet boards, IMHO.

5. And addressing that last post, when I went into the Apple store, I was very mellow, just having come from a weekend brunch and figuring they would probably see all the dropped calls and just replace it after hearing other people tell me it sounded like my phone was a defective unit. I left not ideally happy obviously, but certainly not steaming, and took no tone whatsoever with the employee, though I certainly expressed disappointment at the outcome at the end.

In any event, I give up, the wife will get my iPhone and I'll get a phone that actually works from a vendor that doesn't classify repeatedly dropping calls at 5 bars as normal. Thanks again to the folks who tried to help, and watch out for the crazies.

[FeelingGood]

Boy, the apologists are out today.

When she said she would hate for me to lose the excellent battery life, (a) she had no idea about the battery life I'm experiencing, which is far from great, I often get less than a day and she had not asked about it, so she could not fairly come to the conclusion mine was better than average, and (b) she was clearly suggesting that if I got a replacement phone, it would likely be worse. If you don't want to call it a "threat", this is pure wordplay. ....

Wrong. The diagnostic software the Genious bar is using is much more advanced than people know, especially the latest versions. It will tell her exactly how your battery performance is comparing to the hundreds of previous tests she's done on other iPhones 3g, or 3GS, depending your model. She probably noticed that you were getting better than average performance, and simply implied that she could not guarantee that you would be getting the same performance with any replacement phone she would give you. So please stop with the paranoia. Jeesh.

[rspeaker]

Can you imagine going to a car dealer with a failed radiator under warranty and them telling you, if we fix this, the air conditioner won't work as well afterward? And this is supposed to be ok?! (I guess so, if it's Apple.) I swear, the Kool Aid around here truly astounds me sometimes.

There is a key difference here: Apple swaps your phone for a different phone, the car dealer simply replaces the radiator. Now, if it was the car dealer's policy to swap cars with warranty issues for a new car just like yours... then yes, it would be entirely acceptable for the dealer to tell you if they take away your old car for the radiator issue, your new car's A/C might not work as well as it does on your current vehicle.

[samcraig]

There is a key difference here: Apple swaps your phone for a different phone, the car dealer simply replaces the radiator. Now, if it was the car dealer's policy to swap cars with warranty issues for a new car just like yours... then yes, it would be entirely acceptable for the dealer to tell you if they take away your old car for the radiator issue, your new car's A/C might not work as well as it does on your current vehicle.

+1 for logic!!

[za9ra22]

....It's also interesting that though none of them observed the conversation, and thus could not have heard either the rest of the conversation or the tone, none can possibly conceive that an Apple employee would actually be trying to keep me from swapping phones other than to be helpful to me.... anything but helpful!

No, I rather think you are misrepresenting the responses you have got here, just as you perhaps misrepresent the conversation you had the the Apple 'Genius'.

Initially, you said:
Much worse, she also said she'd hate to swap my phone for another phone given that I was "experiencing such great battery life," directly implying that if she gave me a replacement phone, I would get one with a defective battery.

Interesting that Apple seems to be adopting a policy of threats of even further reduced service and functionality to keep people from swapping malfunctioning phones under warranty.....
Which implies that other users have had the same experience and that there is a broad policy of attempting to dissuade iPhone owners from exchanging their devices, even when there are demonstrable faults such as you were reporting.

Yet, your experience is not being reported here (or anywhere else that I've seen) to be common at all. In fact almost the opposite. Even here, a place full of 'crazies', it is very commonly being reported that replacements for defective iPhones are easily and readily obtained from Apple stores. There are some less positive stories (as to be expected since there are also some less positive reasons being offered for why replacements are being sought), but no widespread pattern of owners being 'threatened' into not taking a replacement iPhone.

As you will be aware from legal practice, where evidence is the key to supporting a good argument and winning the case, the evidence in this instance is not all that much on your side. You can of course dismiss the bulk of what evidence there is as Apple apologists and fanboys, but they in turn are at liberty to dismiss your claim over a non-existent policy as being from just another typical lawyer.

.... the wife will get my iPhone and I'll get a phone that actually works from a vendor that doesn't classify repeatedly dropping calls at 5 bars as normal.....

Oh my. Is there some reason your wife should be pleased to have a defective iPhone? I would have thought pursing Apple until they provide you with a fully working one (as many others appear to have done) would be a more productive way of dealing with this. Assuming you wish to resolve this, why not return to the store with your iPhone and a list of your grievances, and ask for the problem to be resolved to your satisfaction. Apple is not the sum of one 'Genius', nor of one iPhone.

[JimAtLaw]

Deleted

[Stunod7]

Verizon
ATT

They are different companies. In your area, ATT may not be as strong and may drop more calls. Get over it.:rolleyes:

Agreed. AT&T is downright bullet proof in my area. Other friends on T-Mo and Verizon can't keep calls going for extended periods of time.

[-aggie-]

Deleted

I see that you deleted your response, which I happened to read, but that doesn't matter. I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this thread. You should've expected some of the responses you got, just due to the inflammatory words you chose in your OP and its title. Get over it. This is a forum and that's just the way things are, for better or worse.

Also, I don't understand why you take offense at the jabs made at you being a lawyer. You must know the stereotypes? And the jokes made about "Kill all the lawyers"? I'm an engineer and there are plenty of stereotypes about us. Besides, I'm an Aggie, and I hear plenty about that. For me, I've gotten used to it all, and just ignore it. You should too. How are you at parties? Being able to laugh at yourself makes things easier. Anyway, you might be that one nice lawyer who doesn't fit the stereotype, but people are going to make the generalization anyway (and I'm not saying there is only one nice lawyer....maybe two:)...j/k). Laugh! Get over it.

The back and forth through this thread is pointless. I don't condone those who posted your personal information, whatever that was, since it seems to have been deleted by the moderator. I also don't think some need to get so angry, because they could just ignore your post. But again, this is a forum and that's just how it is. All you do by responding is feed the trolls.

My recommendation is you report your OP to the moderator and ask for this thread to be deleted. That'll end it all. Oh, and nothing I wrote here was meant to be threatening in any way. :)

[HowEver]

There is a key difference here: Apple swaps your phone for a different phone, the car dealer simply replaces the radiator. Now, if it was the car dealer's policy to swap cars with warranty issues for a new car just like yours... then yes, it would be entirely acceptable for the dealer to tell you if they take away your old car for the radiator issue, your new car's A/C might not work as well as it does on your current vehicle.

Exactly!

Now if the iPhone battery, like a car radiator, was a replaceable part, we'd all be happy. Oh, and if it worked better.

(No part of this post should be construed as a threat.)

[aristobrat]

When she said she would hate for me to lose the excellent battery life, (a) she had no idea about the battery life I'm experiencing

Ok geniuses, how did she conclude I was experiencing "such great battery life" that I would be giving up with a replacement?
Jim, as FeelingGood posted, when she plugged your iPhone in and ran the diagnostic on it, it tells her all about your battery life, as well as how many calls you've dropped, etc.

Also, replacement iPods and iPhones come with brand new batteries (and a new exterior shell).

If the diagnostics on your iPhone have it reporting a better than normal battery life, her comment makes total sense.

Your generalization of "Apple adopting a policy of threats" was based off your one interaction with this one Genius? Why would you not say "hey, I had a Genius I disagreed with"? How the heck can you jump from that to "Apple seems to be adopting a policy of threats?"

[cmaier]

Jim, as FeelingGood posted, when she plugged your iPhone in and ran the diagnostic on it, it tells her all about your battery life, as well as how many calls you've dropped, etc.

Also, replacement iPods and iPhones come with brand new batteries (and a new exterior shell).

If the diagnostics on your iPhone have it reporting a better than normal battery life, her comment makes total sense.

Your generalization of "Apple adopting a policy of threats" was based off your one interaction with this one Genius? Why would you not say "hey, I had a Genius I disagreed with"? How the heck can you jump from that to "Apple seems to be adopting a policy of threats?"

That's what bugs me about the OP. Rather than assuming the simplest explanation - the genius was just helpfully providing the potential downside to swapping phones when the existing phone might not even really have a problem, the OP instead attributes the remark as representing a policy by Apple. Furthermore, the OP claims this is a threat, as if the Apple employee had actually said "i'll give you a new phone, but I'll disable the battery on it." It's just a bizarre thought process.