Apple Releases New PowerMacs

[MacRumors]

Apple has released (http://www.apple.com/) the new PowerMac G5 revisions.

The new machines are as follows:

Dual 1.8GHz - $1999
Dual 2.0GHz - $2499
Dual 2.5GHz - $2999

[liketom]

o dear is that all ?????

[e-coli]

Looks like no 3's. Wow...really no changes at all except higher clock speeds at a 90nm process.

Wonder what the stock will do. *cringes*

[killmoms]

It ain't 3.0, but it's still sweet.

Now to bear the brunt of all the "APPLE DIDNT GET 3.0 OMG LUZERZ LOLBBQ!!!1!one" whiners. IBM had trouble at 90nm, not too surprising, Intel did (and still does) as well. I was surprised they made that promise last year; ramping 1.0GHz in a year is VERY aggressive.

--Cless

[kwajo.com]

damn i was about ot start a thread about this!! saw it on canada store which i think went up before the others did for some reason

anyway these updates are very odd. too big a gap between 2 and 2.5. and it's only one new speed. and why did they downgrade the dual 1.8??? the one you could have bought yesterday would be better than the "updated" one today! wtf? :mad:

i don't like it, but then again I really want a dual G5 of any speed as it would smoke my 1.5GHz powerbook

[Dont Hurt Me]

Sweet, maybe i should forget imac and get a dual1.8 but then again it has 256 memory and a fx5200 wtf?

[LaMerVipere]

Well I guess if you bought a Dual 2.0GHz last year there's no reason for you to feel the slightest bit outdated today! :(

So they just added one new model, wow...that took a year?

[crap freakboy]

better than a kick in the teeth I suppose....but not much.

lets hope wwdc offers more than updated displays.

[dopefiend]

Well I guess if you bought a Dual 2.0GHz last year there's no reason for you to feel the slightest bit outdated today! :(

So they just added one new model, wow...that took a year?

Yup, this is disappointing.

[Buck72]

OMG I am so glad I got an RMA to send back my dual 1.8 yesterday. Almost got screwed out of 500 bucks.

[bob_the_gorilla]

Not bad - but not what we were hoping for. They still have pants graphics cards, I can't believe it!

[MGnards]

and apparently, the suckers are liquid-cooled, too.
not bad, hope they were right about the displays, too.

[iGav]

2.5 looks fast, especially with that 1.25GHz Frontside bus...

The only not so cool bit is the gap between 2 and 2.5, I would've thought they might have gone for a 2GHz, 2.2Ghz and 2.5GHz...

Either way... looking forward to the benchmark results. :)

[stefman]

Nice....but how about those LCD displays??

I need a display!!

[madrobby]

Well... Lets wait for WWDC... :rolleyes:

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

So, what's the new sweetspot? The dual 1.8 or 2.0?

The 2.5 looks great, but it's a bit on the expencive side... ;)

[bob_the_gorilla]

Ooh, liquid cooling system...

[BakedBeans]

Not bad - but not what we were hoping for. They still have pants graphics cards, I can't believe it!

9800xt aint pants.... but a big boo all round i think
liquid cooling a nice touch tho

[Dont Hurt Me]

The worst part of this update are the video cards, fx5200 in a $2000 machine??? am i missing something? $50 more bucks for a 9600xt, $350 for a 9800xt in the base machine. Apple has fallen behind in the video card dept, good reason to kill off ADC.

[jocknerd]

So one new Mac to show for a whole year? Not complaining. 2.5ghz is fast. But come on Apple, there have been changes in the graphics world. FX5200? Get real. That card belongs in a $400 PC.

I'm glad to see the PowerMacs come only in a dual processor format now. That definitely makes way for a G5 iMac. But considering the crappy graphics card in the PM, I guess we shouldn't expect to be able to play games in the iMac with the card they'll probably put in that.

[rwbean]

Taking GST of 10% into account for the 3 models, the exchange rate used comes to .6226 (dual 2.5 GHz), .6110 and .6110. (with edu discount - .6367, .6387, .6248.)

The actual exchange rate is .6980. Compare to .6874 for the Powerbook 15" with Superdrive (and .7187 for the same thing with EDU discount)!!! No sales to Aussies - the Powermacs must be squarely aimed at the US market.

[MDiddy]

They hobble the Dual 1.8 with the same board as the old 1.6GHz single, and still charge $200 bucks more, AND stick to PCI-X slots with already dated video cards. Waited almost a year for a Rev.2, now I'm waiting for a Rev. 3.

[PRØBE]

The dual 2.5 is sweet, but as for the other year-old models....humph. If could afford the top of the line model I would have bought one a year ago.

Ok Ok, I know people will say 1.8 is good enough for everyone etc etc, but but but (sticks out bottom lip and goes of to sulk)

[jxyama]

Ooh, liquid cooling system...

yeah, i was about to say... i wonder how it works... (edit: only on dual 2.5 machine. details here: http://www.apple.com/powermac/design.html)

should i light the fire and suggest that 3.0 is still possible at wwdc - just for announcement with later shipping?

i don't think so, but i'm sure some will think new PMs are still coming at WWDC.

with PM update done, WWDC may revert back to what it is - a developer's conference - and not a new hardware announcement event, like last year.

[hvfsl]

Well I wont be getting one, they use last generations graphics cards.

A R9800XT in the highend? What it the point, they should at least be X800pro. Apple had better be upgrading the graphics cards soon or add the X800XT as a Built to order option at WWDC. :confused:

[uv23]

The following comments are based on standard configs. I'm aware you can change things around with BTO but that's not the point.

Good:
2.5 GHz. It's not 3GHz but it's still 2x500MHz better than what was available before.

Better superdrive but this was expected.

Bad:
Attrocious video cards. $3500CDN for a 64mb FX5200Ultra?? Is that a joke? Apple has a lot of cahones to be charging a premium for such a ****e component.

Crippled low end model. Yes, I know it's the low end model, but 256mb ram?? Good god. And old school PCI cards? Totally unnecessary.

Oh well. Are the prices the same?

[Rustus Maximus]

Well I wont be getting one, they use last generations graphics cards.

Not to mention that but you also lose one of your PCI-X slots if you get one of the 9800 256MB monsters... :(

[dopefiend]

Oh well. Are the prices the same?

They went up.

[ewinemiller]

Nice speed boost, but disappointed that they haven't bumped the superdrive to a dual layer burner.

[caveman_uk]

Nice that the 1.8 and 2.0 are down in price but we're still getting screwed for $200-$400 more than the US prices (yes that take into account sales tax).

How long until the 2.5GHz machines ACTUALLY ship? The store says JULY...

[MentalFabric]

Has anyone yet noticed that the RAM slots are still horizontal???

[Fukui]

What happened to the 9800 XT? Didn't the X800 just come out, why aren't they using that???

[neonart]

Sweet, maybe i should forget imac and get a dual1.8

Ahh, yeah. Why tie yourself to a monitor?

THIS IS GREAT! At last I can order my machine! I just don't know which one...

[jocknerd]

Why does Apple continue to do this ****? The 1.8's were great. Now they are in the same board that the 1.6 was in. Only 4GB's of memory. Wouldn't you save money, Apple, if you only made 1 motherboard? I'll never understand Apples need to cripple their bottom end systems. I guess these will sell about as well as the 1.6's did last year.

I was ready to purchase the 1.8. Not now. Good job Apple.

[iGav]

Ooh, liquid cooling system...

only on the 2.5GHz model though.. ;)

[macridah]

are these babies using the 90nm chips?

pretty good news, not great news.

[Sabbath]

In the G5 tech specs it says they're using 90nm processors. I wonder if that is for the whole range or just the 2.5GHz. I wonder if they need the liquid cooling or if it just makes the engineering a bit easier/allows them to run a bit cooler. You'd think they sure wouldn't need it on the 1.8 and 2.0 if they are 90nm.

[PRØBE]

So one new Mac to show for a whole year? Not complaining. 2.5ghz is fast. But come on Apple, there have been changes in the graphics world. FX5200? Get real. That card belongs in a $400 PC.

I'm glad to see the PowerMacs come only in a dual processor format now. That definitely makes way for a G5 iMac. But considering the crappy graphics card in the PM, I guess we shouldn't expect to be able to play games in the iMac with the card they'll probably put in that.



Good point. I was hoping for a 128mb card in the new imac but that looks unlikely now. What are Mac gamers supposed to buy?

[jocknerd]

OMG I am so glad I got an RMA to send back my dual 1.8 yesterday. Almost got screwed out of 500 bucks.

You better rethink that. The 1.8's are now crippled compared to before.

[Sabbath]

[liquid cooling] only on the 2.5GHz model though.. ;)

Answers my above point pretty much

edit: missed the s :rolleyes:

[machinehead]

should i light the fire and suggest that 3.0 is still possible at wwdc - just for announcement with later shipping?

Absolutely ... we need a little excitement around here for a change ... :p

[NusuniAdmin]

I am going to ask my dad about geting me the dual 1.8 instead of getting me an emac...its a thousand dollar difference but i cant stand the emac's crt nor will I wait 5 months for g5 imac to ship.

[denisg]

By the end of the year that 2.5 model will be the "crappy" entry-level model......while this isn't moving as fast as everyone wanted, the PM lineup going forward is going to be pretty damn impressive.......

[Jedda]

You people drive me insane.

.5 Ghz in a year is an amazign effort.

If you don't think so, you really need to do some research.

True, Apple is all glamour, but that's mostly Steve.

Behind it all, they are a technology company who must abide to the laws of nature. It's not magic.

[broken_keyboard]

I wonder why the 2.5 needs liquid coolers on the CPU modules? Are they still 130nm?

[jocknerd]

At least they know high end machines should include high end components.

[dopefiend]

By the end of the year that 2.5 model will be the "crappy" entry-level model......while this isn't moving as fast as everyone wanted, the PM lineup going forward is going to be pretty damn impressive.......

What the hell? lol

No it won't.

[jocknerd]

You people drive me insane.

.5 Ghz in a year is an amazign effort.

If you don't think so, you really need to do some research.

True, Apple is all glamour, but that's mostly Steve.

Behind it all, they are a technology company who must abide to the laws of nature. It's not magic.

I, for one, am not complaining about the ghz. I'm complaining about the crappy video cards and the crippled motherboard for 1.8's.

[denisg]

I wonder why the 2.5 needs liquid coolers on the CPU modules? Are they still 130nm?

Probably the 2.5s are the first batch of the new chips and that's why the big jump from the other models. Hopefully, these are the slowest of the new batch and this model goes right to the entry level position at the next upgrade (2.5, 2.8, 3.0).

[macridah]

are these babies using the 90nm chips?

pretty good news, not great news.

it does :o ... had to read the G5 tech overview. BTW, liquid cooling only on the dual 2.5's. The inside still looks the same as before, maybe only the dual 2.5's are have the different interior like the one showed in the service manual.

[aswitcher]

Well I am glad Steve has got this rather anticlimatic release out of the way before WWDC. Now whats next ;)

[russed]

this looks like a bit of an half hearted attempt at an update. maybe something else will be coming at wwdc?i cant see why they have made the dual 1.8 worse. interesting! maybe we are missing something here?

[hmg]

The Australian store is showing the new ones also.
Under the 2.5GHz there is the following text: "Sale subject to agency approval".
What the **** does that mean?

[~Shard~]

Sure, it's isn't 3 GHz, but it's still a significant jump in my mind - 2x500 MHz.

It would have been nice to see another new machine in the line-up, as opposed to leaving the 1.8 and 2.0 there, but maybe this is setting something up for WWDC. Maybe Jobs will release another couple models at WWDC, including the 3 GHz - or at least anounce it with shipping times a few months thereafter...

[oliverlubin]

if this is the revision, then what were those service images of? is that what was supposed to come out but didnt and this is the stop-gap because that effor failed?

[edesignuk]

Not bad, but not good, where the hell is the dual 3GHz, and what the hell is that POS FX5200 still in Powermacs???? Top end should have a top-end card, not a mid range 9600XT, and it should have 1GB RAM minium standard. Bloody hell Apple, sort it out!!!

[3-22]

Not too impressive, but on the other hand my Dual G5 i paid $2499 for still loooks pretty good!

So if Steve Job's promissed 3GHz by end of summer, will they not release that now because it will only be a few months after these upgrades? (if they can get it together by then) Does this mean he blew that promise, or could they still bring out a 3GHz model say in early fall? Have they ever brought out something back to back like that?

[Fukui]

Did anyone notice the motherboards are not the same smaller ones shown by Appleinsider? The inside of the case and heatsink are not diff either...

[PRØBE]

You people drive me insane.

.5 Ghz in a year is an amazign effort.

If you don't think so, you really need to do some research.

True, Apple is all glamour, but that's mostly Steve.

Behind it all, they are a technology company who must abide to the laws of nature. It's not magic.




I haven't seen anyone complaining about the 2.5Ghz machine.

[caveman_uk]

The Australian store is showing the new ones also.
Under the 2.5GHz there is the following text: "Sale subject to agency approval".
What the **** does that mean?
My guess it means the Aussie safety agencies or whatever you have that electrical goods have to pass.

[broken_keyboard]

Can you buy those 2.5 CPU modules are put them in your 2.0? The rest of the computer looks the same.

[Lancetx]

It may have already been mentioned, but the new BTO Radeon 9800 XT video card has 256MB VRAM. I'm pretty sure it was 128MB before...

[NusuniAdmin]

Why get mad, at least now apple has the liquid cooling for future machines, as well as it seems IBM finally has this 90NM **** down...kinda sux about the wait till july to get dual 2.5...but oh well. Maybe we will see future updates in september/october and then again around april or may.

[proglife]

You people drive me insane.

.5 Ghz in a year is an amazign effort.

If you don't think so, you really need to do some research.


Of course it is, but look at the rest of the machine(s). I for one am slowly losing interest in Apple hardware, and it's a shame because I've been a FANATIC, reading these sites and what-not for years. 2 Grand for that 1.8 machine? Are they mad? I *might* pay 1500 for it. If I were going to buy a new PowerMac right now, there is no way in hell I'd buy the dual 1.8. So I look up the line at the considerably more expensive 2.0, and it's still expensive and nothing new, and with a crappy gfx card. Great. Look up the line again....wow, great machine! Oh, 3000 bucks? There are children starving in Africa, and I need to pay my rent.....sorry, too much money. I'm not going to take out a mortgage to buy a computer.

Give me a single G5 headless iMac for under 1200. I'll buy one right now. My G4 450 (1999!) is almost unusable and Mom is not buying my computers anymore. H e l p

[broken_keyboard]

The Australian store is showing the new ones also.
Under the 2.5GHz there is the following text: "Sale subject to agency approval".
What the **** does that mean?

They're just waiting for some or other government permit. I'm sure it will be forthcoming...

[Gee4orce]

You know, I may be confused about this but I though the whole point of tower systems was that you could swap whatever cards you wanted. So stop whining about the graphics cards - if you don't like it, change it ! Same goes for memory - ever see the Build to Order page ?

[dopefiend]

Can you buy those 2.5 CPU modules are put them in your 2.0? The rest of the computer looks the same.

No, they are really different.

[machan]

the new G5 updates: LAME

i love apple and support and promote them to no end in my life, but they've really been dropping the ball in the past 6 months (yeah yeah yeah, ibm dropped the ball, pepsi dropped the ball, blah blah blah, excuse after excuse after excuse, etc.) and not really wowing me like they did last year. everything is coming up underwhelming (ie. iTunes 100 million goal missed, 3Ghz goal missed, pepsi promo an uncoordinated mess, etc.). glad i'm holding off another year before i upgrade to a new G5 PM. 3Ghz should be out by then i hope.

it's not that i really even blame apple for anything, but you have to admit, this year has pretty much sucked so far. i have high hopes for tiger, though.

[PRØBE]

Sure, it's isn't 3 GHz, but it's still a significant jump in my mind - 2x500 MHz.

It would have been nice to see another new machine in the line-up, as opposed to leaving the 1.8 and 2.0 there, but maybe this is setting something up for WWDC. Maybe Jobs will release another couple models at WWDC, including the 3 GHz - or at least anounce it with shipping times a few months thereafter...






Wouldn't that be sales and marketing suicide?

[Mantat]

My main concern is not the speed, its fast enough. Its NO NEW VIDEO CARD! This has to be a mistake! We need some pro level video card!

[proglife]

You know, I may be confused about this but I though the whole point of tower systems was that you could swap whatever cards you wanted. So stop whining about the graphics cards - if you don't like it, change it ! Same goes for memory - ever see the Build to Order page ?

Sorry....not everyone is rich. It's the principal. For 2500 bucks (or 2000 even) you should be getting something better, not getting ripped off.

[rosalindavenue]

The processors are fine. The tough things to me are the low amounts of RAM (obligating any "pro" buyer to buy a bunch of RAM is pretty hard to swallow) and the 5200 video card. I have a 5200 mobile in my toshiba laptop and it cant even come close to playing Halo. Somebody called it a midlevel card above-- I dont think that it even counts as that. :mad:

[Rincewind42]

The worst part of this update are the video cards, fx5200 in a $2000 machine??? am i missing something? $50 more bucks for a 9600xt, $350 for a 9800xt in the base machine. Apple has fallen behind in the video card dept, good reason to kill off ADC.

I doubt that ADC is the reason for video card lag. It is a heck of a lot more expensive and labor intensive to rewrite the video card's ROM to talk to Open Firmware than it is to run a few extra leads on the card.

[jocknerd]

You know, I may be confused about this but I though the whole point of tower systems was that you could swap whatever cards you wanted. So stop whining about the graphics cards - if you don't like it, change it ! Same goes for memory - ever see the Build to Order page ?

Sorry. Don't follow. If I'm spending $2000 - $3000 on a computer, I shouldn't have to upgrade the hardware in it unless its for specific needs. The video cards in these machines belong in $400 PC's not $2000 - $3000 high end machines.

[virividox]

sigh i was hoping for a 3

oh well

[Rincewind42]

What the fsck happened to the 9800 XT? Didn't the X800 just come out, why aren't they using that???

The 9800XT is available as BTO (+350 from 5200FX, +300 from 9600XT). It also consumes an extra PCI/PCI-X slot in space, and I suspect that is why Apple didn't make them standard (at least, more than any other reason).

[moosecat]

I'm going to look at the bright side and assume that Apple is getting the lackluster news out of the way prior to WWDC, to pave the way for something really exciting. (Like a new iMac, or interactive displays.)

[Ozi]

the video card options not great, and a mere 25% increase over the 2.0 dual G5 (an increase it took ages for Apple to bring to us) is a pretty poor effort. :(

[HiRez]

I, for one, am not complaining about the ghz. I'm complaining about the crappy video cards and the crippled motherboard for 1.8's.I agree with you, Jocknerd, dual 2.5 GHz is not bad at all (if not staggeringly amazing), but the rest of the system looks quite stale. I'm disappointed. I have about $3,000 sitting in my bank account to spend on a new PowerMac, but I'll be waiting until at least the next real revision. These aren't terrible machines, but they just don't seem like that magical syzygy of power, cutting-edge features, stability, and price that gets me to lay out that kind of cash. Oh well, back into hibernation...

[BornAgainMac]

My main concern is not the speed, its fast enough. Its NO NEW VIDEO CARD! This has to be a mistake! We need some pro level video card!

That was even more of a surprise to me too. Perhaps next year it will be better.

[edesignuk]

You know, I may be confused about this but I though the whole point of tower systems was that you could swap whatever cards you wanted. So stop whining about the graphics cards - if you don't like it, change it ! Same goes for memory - ever see the Build to Order page ?
If you're paying that much for a machine you shouldn't have to then spend a small fortune on other bits to get it up to what it should be in the first place.

[Rincewind42]

Why does Apple continue to do this ****? The 1.8's were great. Now they are in the same board that the 1.6 was in. Only 4GB's of memory. Wouldn't you save money, Apple, if you only made 1 motherboard? I'll never understand Apples need to cripple their bottom end systems. I guess these will sell about as well as the 1.6's did last year.

I was ready to purchase the 1.8. Not now. Good job Apple.

Unless you need PCI-X or more than 4GB of RAM, then the new Dual 1.8 is basically the same as the old Dual 1.8. Personally, I think most people would rather pocket the $500 difference and be happy than complain about not being able to upgrade past 4GB.

Personally, I think the new Dual 1.8 will sell rather well, and is probably still the sweet spot in the line (which is not a good thing for Apple... but they brought it on themselves).

[hotwire132002]

Stop Whining.

[ts1973]

Crappy upgrade if you ask me.

- Prices went up (in Belgium anyway)
- Crappy video (and a very steep upgrade price for a 9800xt which is EOL anyway)
- same ram as before (which is way too little for a pro machine : 2x 128Mb for a +€2000 machine, what a laugh)
- no change in standard storage
- no airport as standard
- no bluetooth as standard
- still no display change

I think Apple could have done (much !) better.

[BornAgainMac]

>> Dual 2.5GHz, 512MB RAM, ATI RADEON 9600 XT, 8x SuperDrive - $2999

Darn, I no longer have the fastest Mac on the planet. :rolleyes:

[Xenious]

it does :o ... had to read the G5 tech overview. BTW, liquid cooling only on the dual 2.5's. The inside still looks the same as before, maybe only the dual 2.5's are have the different interior like the one showed in the service manual.

My guess is since the 2.5 isn't available till July, but the others are available now I bet they are the same as the older ones mostly with just 8x superdrives added.

I'm still pleased with an update finally. True the graphics cards are disappointing but if ADC goes away with the new monitors then there should be an upcoming wealth of upgrade options.

My one disappointment is that the bluetooth module is still BTO. That would be the only thing you couldn't add in later.

Now the only decision is:

Buy now and save 500$ on an old 23" display
or
Wait and sell body organs to buy a new 30" display :)

Either way I have to buy them and the G5 at the same time to have Apple Care coverage on the display. oi!

[virividox]

why isnt ethernet standard?

[aswitcher]

the video card options not great, and a mere 25% increase over the 2.0 dual G5 (an increase it took ages for Apple to bring to us) is a pretty poor effort. :(

Yep.

Now, bring on the G5iMacs, two button pro mouse, metallic finish bluetooth pro keyboard, 60 gig ipod, new screens at cheaper prices, and a few surprises at wwdc and i'll be happy

[Diatribe]

I agree with most people. The processor speeds are fine. I even think that they are going to release a 3GHz G5 in September making it 3 liquid cooled systems going from 2.5 over 2.8 to 3.0.
What really sucks is the low RAM and the graphics cards. I love Apple but they should get their act together and put some more RAM in and especially a better graphics card. 64MB on a highend machine? LOL.
I am in no position to get one whatsoever but if I'd be I'd feel screwed over.

[jocknerd]

I'm going to look at the bright side and assume that Apple is getting the lackluster news out of the way prior to WWDC, to pave the way for something really exciting. (Like a new iMac, or interactive displays.)

An new iMac that will be incapable of playing games based on the video cards Apple is putting in the PM's. You know they won't put a better video card in the iMac. And great displays. But still no computer to attach them to. I'm not paying $3000 for a computer. I would have bought the 1.8 dual if it was the same machine as the one yesterday but for $1999. Instead they cripple it.

Come on Apple, if you want us to only buy the high end, why even sell another model? Here's a hint: STOP CRIPPLING YOUR LOW-END POWERMACS! Make the differences in the cpu and maybe standard size hard drive. But don't put an entirely different motherboard in there. Thats just stupid and a waste of your resources.

[Nextstep OS X]

I am waiting for

PCI EXPRESS CARDS

and

VIDEO CARDS

Imagine DUAL VIDEO CARDS ARRAY !!!!!!!

The next Rev this summer will have it.

PCI is old world stuff now... the new graphics cards come with PCI EXPRESS.

oh well well be still using this 667mhz tibook a while longer... :(

[hmg]

My guess it means the Aussie safety agencies or whatever you have that electrical goods have to pass.

Surely not? Can't we already get duals in the same box from Apple?
Can't we already get dual Athlons and Xeons in build-yourself boxes?
What would be the difference, do they draw sooo much extra power, or do they interfere on some frequency that other CPUs don't?

Curely this could not be some export or import or (God-forbid) some security agency approval?

Oh well....

[Rincewind42]

I agree with you, Jocknerd, dual 2.5 GHz is not bad at all (if not staggeringly amazing), but the rest of the system looks quite stale. I'm disappointed. I have about $3,000 sitting in my bank account to spend on a new PowerMac, but I'll be waiting until at least the next real revision. These aren't terrible machines, but they just don't seem like that magical syzygy of power, cutting-edge features, stability, and price that gets me to lay out that kind of cash. Oh well, back into hibernation...

You would have thought that for $50 they would have just thrown in the 9600XT, but then I guess the high end wouldn't have a better video card. And personally, the price drops on the 1.8 & 2.0 systems just make them more appealing unless for some reason you REALLY need the power of the 2.5 system.

Hopefully Apple will upgrade them again before the end of the year.

[klaus]

why isnt ethernet standard?

I think it's an extra ethernet-adapter in pci-x

[flahiker]

All I can think is that if these are the new COOLER 90nm chips and they require some bad a$$ liquid cooling to keep them from melting into a heap of molten slag.... it will be a VERY long time before they make it into a powerbook!

[Ozi]

Also, this on the apple australia site: http://www.apple.com.au/powermac/graphics.html

"For over-the-top graphics that saturate your senses, choose the optional ATI Radeon 9800 XT, an AGP Pro card and the fastest and most visually advanced 3D graphics accelerator on the planet."

That is a lie. Im sorry, but it is.

[Savage Henry]

Sure, it's a lame update, so he has got it out of the way before WWDC.

So with them and the Airport Express, what does that leave for Stevenote?

- iMac G5 1.4, with industrial cooling fan
- iTunes 4.6 and an update on the great first 2 weeks of Europe iTMS
- iChat AV, now it works properly

:confused:

[whookam]

For pure 2D work (photoshop/final cut) how much do you really need from a graphics card. If it runs two monitors at high refresh rates at a high enough resolution, what's the problem?

i can understand gamers getting pee'd off but does it really make that much difference to pro's who don't do that much 3D (assuming software utilises GPU etc.)?

Whookam

[Rincewind42]

why isnt ethernet standard?

It is, standard Gigabit ethernet built in. But there is the option to order an additional PCI-X ethernet card (for two ports).

[dopefiend]

Imagine DUAL VIDEO CARDS ARRAY !!!!!!!

Alienware is coming out with this pretty soon :p

[mj_1903]

Was looking forward to this update, but these machines are a disappointment. Time to await the next lot then.

[Diatribe]

Also, this on the apple australia site: http://www.apple.com.au/powermac/graphics.html

"For over-the-top graphics that saturate your senses, choose the optional ATI Radeon 9800 XT, an AGP Pro card and the fastest and most visually advanced 3D graphics accelerator on the planet."

That is a lie. Im sorry, but it is.

And a blunt audacious one too.

[Belly-laughs]

Probably the 2.5s are the first batch of the new chips and that's why the big jump from the other models.

I think you might be right. It is an odd range speed-wise.

[PRØBE]

Yep.

Now, bring on the G5iMacs, two button pro mouse, metallic finish bluetooth pro keyboard, 60 gig ipod, new screens at cheaper prices, and a few surprises at wwdc and i'll be happy




I they do all the above with a minimum 1.8 single G5 and a 128mb graphics card then they will receive my bundle of cash too.


Can't see it happening though.

[365]

Let's look on the brightside, iPod sales are still strong and ... and ...

[the silver fox]

it's not that i really even blame apple for anything, but you have to admit, this year has pretty much sucked so far. i have high hopes for tiger, though.

Ummm... Have you not used FCP HD or DVD Studio Pro 3. Seen Motion lately? This year has sucked? Helllooooo?!?

:confused:

[SiliconAddict]

damn! If they can do liquid cooling in a PowerMac its a good bet they can do it in a PowerBook the question is batt life. Some of the more traditional LC methods requires both a fan and a pump. Don't have Acrobat on my system yet so I can't load up the specific tech specs to see if they are using a pump or not but its a very good possibility that they might use this tech in the next powerbook lineup. So the only question that remains: What CPU could they ever hope to pair up with such a heat transfer system. I’ll have to think on that one. ;)

[delete]

Hearing all the complaints about weak video cards I have to ask if the card matters that much if your just doing 2D work in Photoshop?

[ts1973]

Sure, it's a lame update, so he has got it out of the way before WWDC.

So with them and the Airport Express, what does that leave for Stevenote?

- iMac G5 1.4, with industrial cooling fan
- iTunes 4.6 and an update on the great first 2 weeks of Europe iTMS
- iChat AV, now it works properly


I couldn't have put it any better :(

Maybe the new displays will be better ???

[jaw04005]

why isnt ethernet standard?

It is 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet (RJ-45) according to Powermac G5 specs page. There is just a seperate build-to-order option for a PCI-X ethernet card.

[broken_keyboard]

Also, this on the apple australia site: http://www.apple.com.au/powermac/graphics.html

"For over-the-top graphics that saturate your senses, choose the optional ATI Radeon 9800 XT, an AGP Pro card and the fastest and most visually advanced 3D graphics accelerator on the planet."

That is a lie. Im sorry, but it is.

Yes you are right, that is outright false. I hope they take it down.

[proglife]

For pure 2D work (photoshop/final cut) how much do you really need from a graphics card. If it runs two monitors at high refresh rates at a high enough resolution, what's the problem?

i can understand gamers getting pee'd off but does it really make that much difference to pro's who don't do that much 3D (assuming software utilises GPU etc.)?


That's like saying...."who cares if Porsche doesn't put a hot motor in the Carrera. You're not going to drive it that fast anyways." No, your not, but your still paying a lot for the car, it should have it. Do you not feel a little screwed as a consumer?

[Ozi]

For pure 2D work (photoshop/final cut) how much do you really need from a graphics card. If it runs two monitors at high refresh rates at a high enough resolution, what's the problem?

i can understand gamers getting pee'd off but does it really make that much difference to pro's who don't do that much 3D (assuming software utilises GPU etc.)?

Whookam

well with powerfull CPUs (ie 2x2.5 G5s) that can pump out lots and lots of polygons per second, you need a GPU to be able to handle it. By putting an outdated GPU in the new G5s, it would look on paper like they will be inadequate. Also, people doing "pure 2D work" will buy just the 1.8 G5s or even just iMacs... The point is that a top end computer should have a top end GPU.The 9800XT is good, but it isnt the best. And I always expect the best from Apple.

~ozi

[BornAgainMac]

All I can think is that if these are the new COOLER 90nm chips and they require some bad a$$ liquid cooling to keep them from melting into a heap of molten slag.... it will be a VERY long time before they make it into a powerbook!

Perhaps the G4 will have to be the chip of choice for laptops going forward. It might be up to 1.7 mhz in a year. IBM probably has something in the labs to replace the G4 in 2005 or 2006 also.

[iriejedi]

I'mnot totally sure but I think for "the Mac" the radoen 9800XT is the best card possible.

It took like two years for the "Radeom Mac Edition" to make it from PC to Mac shelves... I can't confirm this but I do not believe the new high end cards are Mac Savvy - although I'd love to be wrong! Haveing just went throught the price/quality study for myu cheap PC... the radeon 9800 is a good deal but it is sub $200... not reall woth $100 in labor to install it... not to mention the $20 you could get for the stock card on eBay!

[EDIT
ATI
RADEON X800XT 256MB 8 AGP
MacMall Part #434568
Mfg. Part #100-435210 PC & Mac

Guess I was wrong!

It may have already been mentioned, but the new BTO Radeon 9800 XT video card has 256MB VRAM. I'm pretty sure it was 128MB before...

[sfwalter]

Too bad they haven't released the displays yet. I need a new PowerMac but I guess I will have to wait for WWDC so they will release the displays.

[dieselg4]

Sorry....not everyone is rich. It's the principal. For 2500 bucks (or 2000 even) you should be getting something better, not getting ripped off.

Well, you might not be getting ripped off too badly - a dual Xeon 3.2 Dell workstation with a dullsville 64MB Nvida Card, 160 GB SATA, 8x DVD-R, 512MB DDR, etc, comes in at around $4000 on their small business website.

[SiliconAddict]

Intel did (and still does) as well. I was surprised they made that promise last year; ramping 1.0GHz in a year is VERY aggressive.

--Cless


Not really. They are now pumping out Pentium M mobile CPU's at 90nm now.

[Village Idiot]

I've been holding off for 6 months to get a G5, as I have been burned on my last 2 mac purchases. Bought a 15" iMac and 2 weeks later the 17" came out. Then a 15" powerbook one month later a 17 incher comes out.
So finally I think I'm playing my cards right and for once I wouldn't have been any worse off than if I bought the dual 2Ghz a year ago!

This revision is totally sh*te. Not because of the speeds, but the lack of other features. Why only one FW 800 port? Same Hard Drive space, Last years graphics cards. What about a dual layer DVD burner option? I want this for HD video editing and I bet if I fork out for this now, the new 3Ghz with slick graphics card for the 30" screen will be out in September. I can't win. Think I may as well hold off until a real upgrade.

Any other editors feel the same? :mad:

[Rincewind42]

I'm still pleased with an update finally. True the graphics cards are disappointing but if ADC goes away with the new monitors then there should be an upcoming wealth of upgrade options.

Why do people think that ADC is holding us back on video cards anyway? Apple makes the video cards that use nVidia chips (because nVidia doesn't make video cards themselves) and ATi even sells ADC equipped Mac edition cards.

But the reality is that in order to make a video card for the Mac, you have to make it talk to Open Firmware. This means that an engineer (someone who makes say $70K a year) has to write code that talks to the Mac's ROM. This takes time and effort, and while it's a one-time cost for any single video card, it's one that the card maker has to put up front and hope they make enough money on the card to recoup the cost.

An ADC connector and all the incumbent circuitry for it probably costs a grand total of $5 per card over a DVI or VGA connector. There are setup costs for the manufacturing too, but that is the case for any new circuit board design. But since the ADC style card design is something that Apple's been producing for some 5 years now, all of those costs have long since been recouped. And the extra fabrication cost can be passed on to the customer on a 1:1 basis.

So the REAL issue holding back new video cards is the fact that Macs don't use a PC BIOS, not that the cards have an ADC connector. Do you want to scream at Apple that they don't use the "standard" PC BIOS but chose Open Firmware instead? No? Didn't think so.

[jaw04005]

An new iMac that will be incapable of playing games based on the video cards Apple is putting in the PM's. You know they won't put a better video card in the iMac. And great displays. But still no computer to attach them to. I'm not paying $3000 for a computer. I would have bought the 1.8 dual if it was the same machine as the one yesterday but for $1999. Instead they cripple it.

Come on Apple, if you want us to only buy the high end, why even sell another model? Here's a hint: STOP CRIPPLING YOUR LOW-END POWERMACS! Make the differences in the cpu and maybe standard size hard drive. But don't put an entirely different motherboard in there. Thats just stupid and a waste of your resources.

Yup same here. I was ready to purchase a new Dual 1.8Ghz, but I think I can wait till the NEXT revision... maybe next year, heh?

[Funkatation]

Sorry. Don't follow. If I'm spending $2000 - $3000 on a computer, I shouldn't have to upgrade the hardware in it unless its for specific needs. The video cards in these machines belong in $400 PC's not $2000 - $3000 high end machines.


$400 OEM PC's have integrated gfx.. you'd have to move up to 600-1000 pc's to get a Geforce 4MX/5200 :)

[MrSugar]

I am excited, mainly just to finaly be getting a powermac!

New pmac is on its way, Dual 1.8, 9600XT, 1.25 gig memory (crucial of course), BT and AE, 280g HD (160 and 120 SATA)

... guess I decided 2ghz, PCI-X, and 4g of ram slots wasn't worth the extra $550 or so.

[hmg]

Also, this on the apple australia site: http://www.apple.com.au/powermac/graphics.html

"For over-the-top graphics that saturate your senses, choose the optional ATI Radeon 9800 XT, an AGP Pro card and the fastest and most visually advanced 3D graphics accelerator on the planet."

That is a lie. Im sorry, but it is.


and NOT technologically advanced.... it seems that the ATIs still give better quality output than the rest....
I guess that's still not right though, but can you buy the X800 yet? yes? I haven't really looked for it I must admit... ;)

[caveman_uk]

Surely not? Can't we already get duals in the same box from Apple?
Can't we already get dual Athlons and Xeons in build-yourself boxes?
What would be the difference, do they draw sooo much extra power, or do they interfere on some frequency that other CPUs don't?

Curely this could not be some export or import or (God-forbid) some security agency approval?

Oh well....
The difference is it is a finished machine not a build-yourself box. You see all those logo's on the bottom of ibooks and on the backs of powermacs. They're the regulatory agency approval logos. Most nations have them. It's mostly to ensure a model is safe and doesn't interfere with radio/TV reception.

[Bigheadache]

Why do people think that ADC is holding us back on video cards anyway? Apple makes the video cards that use nVidia chips (because nVidia doesn't make video cards themselves) and ATi even sells ADC equipped Mac edition cards.

But the reality is that in order to make a video card for the Mac, you have to make it talk to Open Firmware. This means that an engineer (someone who makes say $70K a year) has to write code that talks to the Mac's ROM. This takes time and effort, and while it's a one-time cost for any single video card, it's one that the card maker has to put up front and hope they make enough money on the card to recoup the cost.

An ADC connector and all the incumbent circuitry for it probably costs a grand total of $5 per card over a DVI or VGA connector. There are setup costs for the manufacturing too, but that is the case for any new circuit board design. But since the ADC style card design is something that Apple's been producing for some 5 years now, all of those costs have long since been recouped. And the extra fabrication cost can be passed on to the customer on a 1:1 basis.

So the REAL issue holding back new video cards is the fact that Macs don't use a PC BIOS, not that the cards have an ADC connector. Do you want to scream at Apple that they don't use the "standard" PC BIOS but chose Open Firmware instead? No? Didn't think so.

The issue is not that it is hard to make Mac versions, its the fact that manufacturers have to essentially do a second production run for what is basically a small market. If Macs had better interoperability then the manufacturers could just do one huge run, and supply a mac driver and a pc driver. And Apple don't manufacture the card, they contract that out.

[Sun Baked]

I agree with you, Jocknerd, dual 2.5 GHz is not bad at all (if not staggeringly amazing), but the rest of the system looks quite stale. I'm disappointed. I have about $3,000 sitting in my bank account to spend on a new PowerMac, but I'll be waiting until at least the next real revision. These aren't terrible machines, but they just don't seem like that magical syzygy of power, cutting-edge features, stability, and price that gets me to lay out that kind of cash. Oh well, back into hibernation...This was the Rev. B speed bump a lot of people were expecting, sort of late due to the 90nm problems.

Hopefully these are the last of the ADC machines, it would be nice to see the DVI monitors show up so we can have a smoother transition to the PCI-e machines during the next major platform revision.

Though if you think about it, with the 970/970FX being used in such large numbers by other computer makers along with the CPX925 (Uni-N3 Controller) and others buying into similar technologies to build their own controller, that they probably had an idea that the current status quo would be around for quite awhile (no spiffy FSB changes, NUMA architecture with integrated memory controllers, ect.) and expected quite a bit of the new stuff in the pipe to plug and play with the current controller.

Of course the good thing about the System Controller being used by other computer makers is Apple is likely to ditch it sooner than they normally would, so it's still within the realm of possibility we may get a decent architecture revision in San Fran as the current controller continues to be used in other systems for quite awhile.

[Stella]

Apple must be having a laugh...

256MB in a Pro machine!!!??

The 2.5Ghz is OK, shame about the graphics card... OK you do get an option, but you have to go digging... Apple should have presented a forth PM with the 9800.

PMs, Airport Lite thing... makes you wonder, apart from Tiger just what is going to be in store for WWDC..

[macmunch]

Hmm, Ok but not the best update.

But there remains a big question !!!!
What a kind of G5 PowerMac was that one in the Service Foto at appleinsider.com ???

1. Thats the 3GHz G5 which Steve will announce at WWDC with shipping in 3 Months.

2. Its a not released line based on the 970fx and the 975 from 2.xx to 3.00GHz. And they dont released it because of the production Problems from IBM.

Does anybody now if this 2.5GHz G5 is a 970fx ? It could be a overclocked 970 thats because he is the only modell with a liquid system !!! Think of that.

That would also mean that IBM has big Problems to produce fast and enough Chips.

And always think on the Service Foto of a G5 which does not exist right now !

[Village Idiot]

While i'm in a ranting mood. How about the price in Australia!?! What's going on with that. There's a $1,000 mark up AFTER the currency exchange on a RETAIL price! This is a joke. Surely I can get one from the states to Australia for less than $1,000. And I'm sure Apple australia can get them wholesale and in bulk, why the massive mark up? :confused:

[wrldwzrd89]

Why do people think that ADC is holding us back on video cards anyway? Apple makes the video cards that use nVidia chips (because nVidia doesn't make video cards themselves) and ATi even sells ADC equipped Mac edition cards.

But the reality is that in order to make a video card for the Mac, you have to make it talk to Open Firmware. This means that an engineer (someone who makes say $70K a year) has to write code that talks to the Mac's ROM. This takes time and effort, and while it's a one-time cost for any single video card, it's one that the card maker has to put up front and hope they make enough money on the card to recoup the cost.

An ADC connector and all the incumbent circuitry for it probably costs a grand total of $5 per card over a DVI or VGA connector. There are setup costs for the manufacturing too, but that is the case for any new circuit board design. But since the ADC style card design is something that Apple's been producing for some 5 years now, all of those costs have long since been recouped. And the extra fabrication cost can be passed on to the customer on a 1:1 basis.

So the REAL issue holding back new video cards is the fact that Macs don't use a PC BIOS, not that the cards have an ADC connector. Do you want to scream at Apple that they don't use the "standard" PC BIOS but chose Open Firmware instead? No? Didn't think so.
That explains the video cards then. I have a 17" G4 iMac (with an nVidia 5200 64 MB VRAM graphics card in it), and I've found that the performance is GREAT on RealMyst, at least compared to the ATI Mobility Radeon with 16 MB of VRAM in the PowerBook I had. I am in a quadrupling trend for Mac video card RAM upgrades (I started out with an Apple IIgs with 1 MB VRAM, then I went to a PowerMac 7200/75 with 4MB VRAM, then a PowerBook G4 667 with 16 MB VRAM, now a 1.25 GHz 17" G4 iMac with 64 MB of VRAM. After that, I'm going to get a computer that has 256 MB VRAM.)

[machan]

Ummm... Have you not used FCP HD or DVD Studio Pro 3. Seen Motion lately? This year has sucked? Helllooooo?!?

:confused:


yeah, those apps are really sweet and i applaud apple for putting them out. on the other hand, i'll probably never actually use them.

i was focussing more on the grand gestures that never were carried out the way they were envisioned as being kind of disappointing this year. honestly, i'll only be truly satisfied when ical always displays the correct date on the app icon without having to open it up after a restart. i hate always thinking it's the 17th after i install a security update. :)

[dizastor]

I hope IBM gets back on track and we don't have to wait till next summer for a lineup that looks like,,,

dual 2.0ghz
dual 2.5ghz
dual 3.0ghz

[/sarcasm]

it is a bit of a lame update, but I would love to get my hands on one of the dual 2.5s. (insert diabolic laugh here)

[arn]

PMs, Airport Lite thing... makes you wonder, apart from Tiger just what is going to be in store for WWDC..

People should remember that WWDC is not a "consumer" show....

Aside from last year, Apple doesn't usually release products at it.

[whookam]

well with powerfull CPUs (ie 2x2.5 G5s) that can pump out lots and lots of polygons per second, you need a GPU to be able to handle it. By putting an outdated GPU in the new G5s, it would look on paper like they will be inadequate. Also, people doing "pure 2D work" will buy just the 1.8 G5s or even just iMacs... The point is that a top end computer should have a top end GPU.The 9800XT is good, but it isnt the best. And I always expect the best from Apple.

~ozi


I thought the whole point about it being purely 2D is that I don't need to worry about 'lots of polygons'. I have assumed, maybe incorrectly, that programs such as Photoshop are extremely processor intensive. Once you have a graphics card that is capable of taking the load off the CPU in terms of refreshing the screen etc. then anything else is excess.

You are right in that an expensive computer should have the best parts available but running a retouching business, really what I need is pure CPU grunt. There is no way I would consider buying a 1.8G5, time is money!

Whookam

[syco]

This is probably nothing, but there's something on the back of the G5 in the QTVR.

http://www.amazingsyco.com/wtfg5.jpg

[Masao[RY]]

Well some updates are better than no updates. Although I can't believe Apple did not upgrade the graphics cards as well :-x Most of these cards should no longer be on 'pro hardware' or even priced as they are. The update wouldn't be as bad if Apple had new cards, but bah. Oh well, hopefully we'll hit 3GHz by '06.

[MongoTheGeek]

What I want is

1) 2.5 GHz (at least) XServes
2) To get my G5 XServes which are back ordered

[segundo]

Apple has released (http://www.apple.com/) the new PowerMac G5 revisions.

The new machines are as follows:

Dual 1.8GHz - $1999
Dual 2.0GHz - $2499
Dual 2.5GHz - $2999

Did anyone notice you can still downgrade the optical drive to a combo drive? For those of us that are price conscious, that might be a good option. I'd rather upgrade the video to the ATI 9600 and up the RAM to 512 MB for about the same price . . . after you drop that silly 56k modem. A dual CPU system with good subsystem components (and upgradeable) for $1995 USD isn't too bad at all.

Of course, I'll still have to wait for the new iMac line to determine what I think the best buy is. Regardless, I'm buying a new Apple desktop in the next 3 weeks. :D

[Rubaiyat]

As far as I can tell, this update is great news for current dual processor Power Mac owners. Those with the old dual 2GHz models can feel reassured that even after a year, their machines are still reasonably cutting edge. Dual 1.8Ghz owners must be laughing - their old machines are actually superior to the current 1.8Ghz offerings!

Sometimes, being a Mac user is a little embarrasing.

[fps]

Hi All

That's my first post on the forum (just registered). I'm not a Mac owner yet but I was waiting for the updated G5 and I must say I'm disappointed by the graphics cards... It sticks out like a sore thumb. They could have put 1Gb or Ram, 250Gb HD and bluetooth as standard.

Here in the UK:
UK Online Store (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore)

[Gee4orce]

These cards were more than capable when they were the latest and greatest - in fact I bet the very same people who are complaining about them now are the ones who lauded them when they first appeared. Do pros - yes you know, people who use their Macs for work, not playing games, need uber-schnitz 3D cards ? Probably not. They are mostly just pushing pixels around just like they were last year...

And if you are really considering spending 3K on a Mac for gaming - well, you need head surgery. I've got an XBox - it cost me £150, sits under the TV, plays games online and has a wider selection of games available than the Mac. One hundred and fifty quid - that's less than one of these video cards alone.

[tazznb]

If they proceed with a 3Ghz machine it won't be a powermac.

[broken_keyboard]

I am excited, mainly just to finaly be getting a powermac!

New pmac is on its way, Dual 1.8, 9600XT, 1.25 gig memory (crucial of course), BT and AE, 280g HD (160 and 120 SATA)

... guess I decided 2ghz, PCI-X, and 4g of ram slots wasn't worth the extra $550 or so.

Good for you dude. I have had a dually since October and it is simply a great computer. Enjoy!

[jxyama]

I've been holding off for 6 months to get a G5, as I have been burned on my last 2 mac purchases. Bought a 15" iMac and 2 weeks later the 17" came out. Then a 15" powerbook one month later a 17 incher comes out.
So finally I think I'm playing my cards right and for once I wouldn't have been any worse off than if I bought the dual 2Ghz a year ago!

This revision is totally sh*te. Not because of the speeds, but the lack of other features. Why only one FW 800 port? Same Hard Drive space, Last years graphics cards. What about a dual layer DVD burner option? I want this for HD video editing and I bet if I fork out for this now, the new 3Ghz with slick graphics card for the 30" screen will be out in September. I can't win. Think I may as well hold off until a real upgrade.

Any other editors feel the same? :mad:

sorry, but is your goal to have the fastest computer or to do video editing? you can't do video editing on a computer you don't have.

just get one and get going.

[hallta]

While i'm in a ranting mood. How about the price in Australia!?! What's going on with that. There's a $1,000 mark up AFTER the currency exchange on a RETAIL price! This is a joke.

If I've done my math right, I found the opposite in relation to the Euro (in Germany). If I'd bought a Dual 1.8 yesterday the markup was about 654 Euros, today it's only a 256 Euro difference, so the markup dropped by half. I'm still rechecking my numbers though.

[macmunch]

Hmm, Ok but not the best update.

But there remains a big question !!!!
What a kind of G5 PowerMac was that one in the Service Foto at appleinsider.com ???

1. Thats the 3GHz G5 which Steve will announce at WWDC with shipping in 3 Months.

2. Its a not released line based on the 970fx and the 975 from 2.xx to 3.00GHz. And they dont released it because of the production Problems from IBM.

Does anybody now if this 2.5GHz G5 is a 970fx ? It could be a overclocked 970 thats because he is the only modell with a liquid system !!! Think of that.

That would also mean that IBM has big Problems to produce fast and enough Chips.

And always think on the Service Foto of a G5 which does not exist right now !

[caveman_uk]

Oh well....looks like my PM G4 is safe for a bit longer. Yeah it's slower than the G5s but it will have to get a whole lot slower than the current machines for me to part with over £2000. Here's looking to Rev C?????????????

[Gee4orce]

This is probably nothing, but there's something on the back of the G5 in the QTVR.

http://www.amazingsyco.com/wtfg5.jpg

That's the Airport and bluetooth antennae I believe

[mj_1903]

This is probably nothing, but there's something on the back of the G5 in the QTVR.

http://www.amazingsyco.com/wtfg5.jpg

Airport and bluetooth antennas.

[Studio Dweller]

The thing that kills me is that even if you can be happy with the Radeon 9800XT, it eats up an extra PCI slot due to the size.

"Special note on the ATI Radeon 9800 XT: due to size of this advanced graphics card, the adjacent PCI or PCI-X slot will be blocked and cannot be used. This reduces the number of available PCI or PCI-X slots from three to two."

I have a G4 800 right now and it's bad enough for me that I would be going from 4 slots down to 3. Going down to 2 is out of the question as I'm already using all of them.

[xtbfx]

I was hoping for another machine between the 2 & 2.5Ghz range, but oh well.

I'm not real impressed with the update (except for the liquid cooling). Other than that, it's pretty blah.

Do we think that Steve would announce a 3Ghz at WWDC and hack all the people off that bought the 2.5Ghz?

I bet everyone will be waiting on the 3Ghz so it will be interesting to see what the sales of the 2.5Ghz are.

[nagromme]

Don't forget, everyone, this isn't the ONLY place to deliver an effective message to Apple if you'd like something different ;)

http://apple.com/feedback


I have a 5200 mobile in my toshiba laptop and it cant even come close to playing Halo. Somebody called it a midlevel card above-- I dont think that it even counts as that. :mad:

A mobile GPU is not the same as a desktop GPU. They use similar names/numbers for the top end of both lines, but the products are NOT similar.

[avjason]

I think this is a great move since PC's have offered this for some time now. Especially for burning movies to DVD.

[The Lost]

Perhaps the G4 will have to be the chip of choice for laptops going forward. It might be up to 1.7 mhz in a year. IBM probably has something in the labs to replace the G4 in 2005 or 2006 also.

1.7 mhz ? I think my calculator is faster than that :D

[mj_1903]

While i'm in a ranting mood. How about the price in Australia!?! What's going on with that. There's a $1,000 mark up AFTER the currency exchange on a RETAIL price! This is a joke. Surely I can get one from the states to Australia for less than $1,000. And I'm sure Apple australia can get them wholesale and in bulk, why the massive mark up? :confused:

I hear you. If the prices stay that high for the next update I will definitely get one shipped from the US. I am sure it would cut $800 off the price and that is worth the wait. The only change you need to make is the power cable.

[allpar]

The main source of disappointment to me is pricing. It seems that Apple has simply decided market share isn't important at all except in laptops, where they are still fiercely competitive. Yes, you can argue that for a high quality machine the dual G5 is competitive - but you know that most people are not spending $2,000 and up on computers. The iMac and eMac are both "with monitor" and neither has dual processors even as an option. I'd go for a dual 1.6 G5 at $1,200... I realize that would steal dual 1.8 sales, but so what, if it keeps companies producing software and hardware for Macs!

[Sabbath]

Hmmm on the customise page it says this:

"Choose from the SuperDrive (now with 8x DVD write speed on all dual processor models) or Combo optical drive options to fit your needs. "

Italics added

Does this mean we will see the 1.8 single that was mentioned yesterday later? or maybe you can still customise old 1.6s somewhere on the store. It probably means nothing though I guess, maybe they just wanted to highlight the fact its now a 8x superdrive

[MrSugar]

This is probably nothing, but there's something on the back of the G5 in the QTVR.

http://www.amazingsyco.com/wtfg5.jpg

as far as I know these are the airport and blue tooth antena's

[proglife]

All this whining about video cards is just dick waving. These cards were more than capable when they were the latest and greatest - in fact I bet the very same people who are complaining about them now are the ones who lauded them when they first appeared. Do pros - yes you know, people who use their Macs for work, not playing games, need uber-schnitz 3D cards ? Probably not. They are mostly just pushing pixels around just like they were last year...

And if you are really considering spending 3K on a Mac for gaming - well, you need head surgery. I've got an XBox - it cost me £150, sits under the TV, plays games online and has a wider selection of games available than the Mac. One hundred and fifty quid - that's less than one of these video cards alone.

You're 100% right, but shouldn't the hardware reflect the premium price?

[macmunch]

Hmm, Ok but not the best update.

But there remains a big question !!!!
What a kind of G5 PowerMac was that one in the Service Foto at appleinsider.com ???

1. Thats the 3GHz G5 which Steve will announce at WWDC with shipping in 3 Months.

2. Its a not released line based on the 970fx and the 975 from 2.xx to 3.00GHz. And they dont released it because of the production Problems from IBM.

Does anybody now if this 2.5GHz G5 is a 970fx ? It could be a overclocked 970 thats because he is the only modell with a liquid system !!! Think of that.

That would also mean that IBM has big Problems to produce fast and enough Chips.

And always think on the Service Foto of a G5 which does not exist right now !

[aus_dave]

Dual 1.8Ghz owners must be laughing - their old machines are actually superior to the current 1.8Ghz offerings!
As an owner of an 'old' dual 1.8 I think they do stack up pretty well - the 80 gig hard drive in the revised model is a big downgrade.

[ts1973]

All this whining about video cards is just dick waving. These cards were more than capable when they were the latest and greatest - in fact I bet the very same people who are complaining about them now are the ones who lauded them when they first appeared. Do pros - yes you know, people who use their Macs for work, not playing games, need uber-schnitz 3D cards ? Probably not. They are mostly just pushing pixels around just like they were last year...

And if you are really considering spending 3K on a Mac for gaming - well, you need head surgery. I've got an XBox - it cost me £150, sits under the TV, plays games online and has a wider selection of games available than the Mac. One hundred and fifty quid - that's less than one of these video cards alone.

I think you are partly right, but that implies that Power Macs are almost exclusively aimed at the Photoshop market - talking about a niche market...

What playing games is concerned : the same statement goes for the PC-market. Top graphic cards are very big business nowadays (maybe even more so than the processor market). There must be a very good reason for that !

[Ozi]

I hear you. If the prices stay that high for the next update I will definitely get one shipped from the US. I am sure it would cut $800 off the price and that is worth the wait. The only change you need to make is the power cable.

yeah prices in Australia have always sucked major balls. Its pretty damn annoying that we have such a HUGE markup: surely shipping in bulk across the Pacific can't cost THAT much?

Yeah I would suggest going on eBay America after a few months of them being out, and you could probably get one nearly new for about $2000 less than RRP through Apple Australia.

~ozi

[themacman]

I really dont mind this update the dual 2 was so fast and they went up a half a ghz for the top model thats prety good, except it took to much time. The liquid cooling though is great news. If they put that in the G5 Powerbook then I personally will like this update because its a way for apple to show their new technolgy.

[macnews]

Can someone explain what the other technology is besides PCI-X? I thought PCI-X was one of the latest technologies and not proprietary to Apple.

I do agree it would be nice to get better graphics cards. Here's a thought - at WWDC Steve announces ADC goes away and then over night these cards get left out of the G5s. Maybe it is best to wait a few weeks before I buy... but if someone could explain the PCI-X thing it would be appreciated.

[mj_1903]

yeah prices in Australia have always sucked major balls. Its pretty damn annoying that we have such a HUGE markup: surely shipping in bulk across the Pacific can't cost THAT much?

Yeah I would suggest going on eBay America after a few months of them being out, and you could probably get one nearly new for about $2000 less than RRP through Apple Australia.

~ozi

No need for eBay, I will just ask a friend to send one over.

Interesting, I can get a return flight to the US for $960. Maybe I should just fly over and get one, it would still be cheaper.

[iggyb]

You people drive me insane.

.5 Ghz in a year is an amazign effort.

If you don't think so, you really need to do some research.

True, Apple is all glamour, but that's mostly Steve.

Behind it all, they are a technology company who must abide to the laws of nature. It's not magic.

.5 GHz in a year is nice, yes. However, Steve promised twice that. If he kept his trap shut, there wouldn't be such a backlash on the clock cycle.

The other complaints don't have to do with the processor. Craphole video cards are a big issue. Apple's touting themselves for video, and this is what they release in their high end machines??? Old PCI doesn't help either.

I can see why this was announced before WWDC. This would've been a decent update 6 months ago. Today, it's a letdown

[mj_1903]

Can someone explain what the other technology is besides PCI-X? I thought PCI-X was one of the latest technologies and not proprietary to Apple.

I do agree it would be nice to get better graphics cards. Here's a thought - at WWDC Steve announces ADC goes away and then over night these cards get left out of the G5s. Maybe it is best to wait a few weeks before I buy... but if someone could explain the PCI-X thing it would be appreciated.

PCI-Express is the new technology. PCI-X and PCI-Express were basically competing with each other and PCI-Express has won out.

[iggyb]

I was hoping for another machine between the 2 & 2.5Ghz range, but oh well.

I'm not real impressed with the update (except for the liquid cooling). Other than that, it's pretty blah.

Do we think that Steve would announce a 3Ghz at WWDC and hack all the people off that bought the 2.5Ghz?

I bet everyone will be waiting on the 3Ghz so it will be interesting to see what the sales of the 2.5Ghz are.

Steve will most definitely NOT announce a 3GHz. Apple is getting this update announcement out of the way, because it ain't big news.

[form]

I would have liked to have seen a price drop on the G4 OS9+OSX systems, because now they're even more overpriced than they were before, by comparison.

Good for Apple, I say! Breaking promises and watching stubborn, fanatical people keep buying what you have to offer...that's cool, man! Lying to the consumers every single time the CEO opens his mouth is teh pwn! Keep it up!

[Windowlicker]

these are ok I think... they should have 1gb of ram on the 2x2,5 though. and the 256mb has been ridiculous for some time already :P

what i'm interested in is how the liquid cooling works... I mean, it's not gonna have an external pump for it so....??? :P

[zulgand04]

Nice speed boost, but disappointed that they haven't bumped the superdrive to a dual layer burner.

I don't see the point for dual layer at this point when, media won't be aviable till at the earliest late 3rd quarter, there will prolly be a update around christmas and then we may see dual layer and actually be able to use them.

-neal

[DGFan]

Well I wont be getting one, they use last generations graphics cards.

A R9800XT in the highend? What it the point, they should at least be X800pro. Apple had better be upgrading the graphics cards soon or add the X800XT as a Built to order option at WWDC. :confused:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

hold on a sec


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not everyone needs a powerhouse $400 video card. Just because you might be a graphics professional doesn't mean everyone is. Sure, it would be nice to see it as an option but let's not get carried away.

[klaus]

They are ALL 90 nm processors.
Only the 2.5 ghz model has liquid-cooling
THe internal is largely the same, except for the somewhat larger cases for the processors, now they match the outside of the case.


anybody know if there is a speed difference between a 2.0 ghz 970, and a 2.0 ghz 970 FX?

It's known to be less hot (but then why the liquid-cooling?), and consumes less power, but is it faster than an equal ghz 970 processor?

EDIT: and something about the graphic cards. STOP WHINING! ever thought of the possibility that those new cards x800, nividia 6800 or whatever just don't exist for mac just yet?? Apple can't magically whip such a card up. They would want it as bad as we would but it's just not the case, the 9800 xt is the best they CAN give you, if you want to blame someone, blaim it on nvidia and ati who are not so eager to invest in equal manufactering of pc-mac GPU's

[machinehead]

All I can think is that if these are the new COOLER 90nm chips and they require some bad a$$ liquid cooling to keep them from melting into a heap of molten slag.... it will be a VERY long time before they make it into a powerbook!

I would have thought that the move to a 90-nanometer process would have offset the 0.5 GHz boost in clock speed, so that the dual 2.5 could continue to use the G5's elaborate multi-fan air cooling system without the addition of a liquid-cooling bandaid.

In other words, it seems like there's an unexpected heat problem ... more watts from the 90-nm chip than anticipated.

That may be a clue as to why this update took so long ... and why the high end is 2.5 GHz instead of 3.0 GHz.

The positive spin is that the liquid cooling system provides the mechanical foundation for ramping up clock speeds in the future. But excess heat in a chip with densely-packed 90-nm components sounds like a daunting issue.

[d.f]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

hold on a sec


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not everyone needs a powerhouse $400 video card. Just because you might be a graphics professional doesn't mean everyone is. Sure, it would be nice to see it as an option but let's not get carried away.

sorry. but surely THESE models ARE targetted at graphic proffesionals...??

[hmg]

The difference is it is a finished machine not a build-yourself box. You see all those logo's on the bottom of ibooks and on the backs of powermacs. They're the regulatory agency approval logos. Most nations have them. It's mostly to ensure a model is safe and doesn't interfere with radio/TV reception.


I know about the logos, our company has to get our hardware approved for these also. My question, I guess, is what would make a dual 2.5 G5 interfere but no an equivalent Athlon or Xeon? I'm a "software guy" not a "hardware guy" so it's not my area of expertise. It just seems strange to me if it's interfering!

Eh, (shrug).

[uzombie]

If any of Steve J's suboord's are reading this:

Boo. :(

This has to either be a bandaid or delay. Either way, I am not allocating budget for a .5ghz speed bump. Looks like another 12 months (factor in announcement to ship) before I replace our workstations.

Why no default 9800XT? Economics...this hardware *has* to be profitable for Apple.

We wait till WWDC to see any, "and another thing..." surprise. :o

[lssmit02]

Perhaps Apple is inlcuding only mediocre video cards because the new displays will be DVI instead of ADC. Then it makes sense - blow out inventory on old cards, then, when new displays available, throw in the better cards. See story on ThinkSecret about possible new displays:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/newdisplays.html

[aus_dave]

Interesting, I can get a return flight to the US for $960. Maybe I should just fly over and get one, it would still be cheaper.
Not quite. Dual 2 in the US is $2499 ~ $3600 AU. The same model in Australia is $4499 or around $900 difference. I would imagine you would be up for customs duty and possibly GST so the numbers don't look quite as good if you try to get around 'the system'.

You could always try sneaking the G5 through customs..."Oh, this? Err, it's just a really heavy suitcase" :D.

[pjkelnhofer]

why isnt ethernet standard?

What makes you say that?
from the tech specs (http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html)
Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet and 56K V.92 modem

[brap]

<begin agreement rant>

It's quite sad, really. If it wasn't for the dual processors, these machines would be consumer grade. Apple really needs to work on putting together a coherent package.

A proper letdown. I need a new machine to serve up my home network and crunch a few numbers - this nForce sucks - but with these specs and price point, the new G5 ain't it.

[iGary]

1799.00 Educational Pricing on the 1.8 Dualie.

Must.Put.Credit.Card.Down.

[Blue Moon]

Looks like no 3's. Wow...really no changes at all except higher clock speeds at a 90nm process.

Wonder what the stock will do. *cringes*

I don't think the stock market was predicting 3.0's as the stock is doing fine as of right now (stock is up while the rest of the NASDAQ is down).

[mj_1903]

Not quite. Dual 2 in the US is $2499 ~ $3600 AU. The same model in Australia is $4499 or around $900 difference. I would imagine you would be up for customs duty and possibly GST so the numbers don't look quite as good if you try to get around 'the system'.

You could always try sneaking the G5 through customs..."Oh, this? Err, it's just a really heavy suitcase" :D.

Was more looking at the Dual 2.5. :)

No GST, just customs duty, but yeah I would be up for it unless they didn't check the giant computer box labelled "G5".

[adamfilip]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!

http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html

[HiRez]

I'm interested to know if these new models have fixed the "chirping" and audio problems of the previous G5s. If I were thinking of getting one, that would be a dealkiller for me.

[broken_keyboard]

I guess this release was originally planned for much earlier and that explains the video cards. Apple has a warehouse full of NV 5200s from the original planned release date they have to give away, even though they are no longer current...

[dopefiend]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!

Never, ever, never, never, ever take any posted benchmarks on Apple's site seriously ;)

[mj_1903]

I don't think the stock market was predicting 3.0's as the stock is doing fine as of right now (stock is up while the rest of the NASDAQ is down).

Generally Apple stock always spikes early and then mucks around the rest of the day, although I expect it to keep following this upward trend due to the announcement of iMS Europe.

[bilingual]

Whatever happened to all those leftover previous low end machines (1.6)? There are no new ones in the Special Deals section as they usually have after a new product introduction. I was just thinking about getting an entry level PowerMac and there's no way I am paying 2000 for dual 1.8. The previous lineup included some more affordable and reasonably-priced machines.

I also wonder if someone ordered G5 1.6 in the last week or so whether they got an upgrade to 1.8. Just for information purposes.

[LaMerVipere]

Even Dell is now offering dual-layer DVD burners in its systems.

*sigh* It looks like Apple has fallen behind the PC world yet again, and we can't blame it on Motorola this time :mad:

[mj_1903]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!

It's faster than the baseline Pentium which is what they are working off. Is it faster than the Xeon? No way. :)

[uzombie]

Oh,
Did you read that it's "twice as quiet as the previous G4 generation". Leave it to marketing to word "our G4s were really loud, huh?".

And liquid cooling? Looks like a heat pipe to me. Should read "Passive Sealed Cooling". Liquid cooling implies a pump and thermally transmissive liquid. The diagram also looks incorrect. I mean, the second processor is cool always? Shouldn't there be separate heat pipes for each proc?

Hope someone can clear this up with first purchase and post some pix.

Perhaps a suggestion of 12cm fans (much quieter, more cfm) on the next gen? The case can handle it.

And what of that "service source" photo with the vertical DDR slots? and the large G5 cover? Is that the revamped 1.6? Doubtful...

/getting off my soapbox..

:rolleyes:

[zulgand04]

the ship dates seem rather close for own the dual 1.8 1-3 days according to the apple store and the 2.5 in july its better then a 3 months lag time they normally have.

-Neal

[killmoms]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!
He's joking. The Dual 1.8 is listed twice, with two different numbers. It's just a typo. Someone copied and pasted and forgot to change it to 2.0.

--Cless

[DWKlink]

I know this is not the update we all hoped for - me included. i've been waiting since november to update my 400mhz iMac. but if you think about it - i can now get a brand new dual 2.0 with 8x superdrive for $500 less than i could yesterday. add $50 for the 9600xt upgrade and i've got a better computer for $450 less. that's not cutting edge technology and features, but its still not a bad deal.

[five04]

ok here's a few problems i see. they all cost more than the previous generation.

superdrives cost way too much.
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=27-152-012&depa=0

$73 for an 8x dvd-+r/-+rw from nec. i'd rather downgrade to a combo drive and put my own in it. problem with that is you only get $100 off so it's not even worth it.

as everyone else has said, the graphics cards are a joke. moving the 1.8 to the crap motherboard is also pathetic. i'm excited about the 2.5 but that's just way out of my league to spend on a computer. the sad thing is, with it being this close to wwdc, even if the dual 3ghz machines are announced, they'll cost more than the 2.5 so the prices for these systems won't go down. i really want to believe apple has something amazing but it's getting more and more difficult.

[Penman]

Why get mad, at least now apple has the liquid cooling for future machines, as well as it seems IBM finally has this 90NM **** down...kinda sux about the wait till july to get dual 2.5...but oh well. Maybe we will see future updates in september/october and then again around april or may.

Liquid cooling mus tme a last resort. If the 2.5's could run air cooled without it they would. In the PC world liquid cooleing is used most often to make overclocking stable. It's a bad sign (though the technology's interesting and efficient). Clearly Apple are pushing that 2.5 so hard it'd burn up without a liquid cooling solution. I imagine they were utterly desperate to get to 3GHz and failed (at least with enough volume).

At least they'll now be able to choose to run chips faster than spec but I guess they're worried the system might not work well (hence the lack of a speed-bump elsewhere in the line). The 2.5 seems like a test balloon to me.

IMHO they missed an opportunity to bring the other components up to scratch here. The graphics cards are at best embarassing and at worst offensive. You shouldn't need to 'upgrade' a $3000 box to get cutting edge visuals.

I'm shocked that the gamble (to 3GHz in a year) seems to have failed this way. They left this to the very last minute. In fact the only thing Apple can say now is that there's been an upgrade before WWDC. I can't see anyone being pleased by this. I would bet that Apple are looking at x86 and quad processors very hard right now. To be selling sub 2GHz PM's in 2005 would be surreal. They need a way of keeping the faith.

As for a PB G5 - my dreams of a proper speed bump (2GHz plus) seem dashed for now. Apple need to make some serious changes to how things are being done. You can't profess to care only about the high-end and then do this. Right now the top end machines are overpriced and the low end machines are underpowered. Who wins here?

[adamfilip]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!

http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html

in case you missed it.. look at the picture it lists two 1.8 G5's

[aus_dave]

Was more looking at the Dual 2.5. :)

No GST, just customs duty, but yeah I would be up for it unless they didn't check the giant computer box labelled "G5".
Check out the fees and charges at http://www.customs.gov.au - they probably take pleasure in putting a stop to nice little schemes like this one :eek:.

[tkn0spdr]

To the guy that said the the new dual 1.8 is on the same mobo as the old 1.6...

You're wrong. The old 1.6 used PC 2700 DIMMs, the new dual 1.8s use PC3200 DIMMs.

Anyway, I'm still using my dual 450MHz G4 until someone feels sorry enough for me to buy me a new computer... any takers? :)

[ts1973]

They are ALL 90 nm processors.
EDIT: and something about the graphic cards. STOP WHINING! ever thought of the possibility that those new cards x800, nividia 6800 or whatever just don't exist for mac just yet?? Apple can't magically whip such a card up. They would want it as bad as we would but it's just not the case, the 9800 xt is the best they CAN give you, if you want to blame someone, blaim it on nvidia and ati who are not so eager to invest in equal manufactering of pc-mac GPU's

I agree about the type of card, but asking for a €330 premium (in Belgium) for the 9800xt is way out of line.

[mj_1903]

Check out the fees and charges at http://www.customs.gov.au - they probably take pleasure in putting a stop to nice little schemes like this one :eek:.

Oh they do I can assure you. That had fun with my PowerBook when I brought it over. :)

[jragosta]

You're 100% right, but shouldn't the hardware reflect the premium price?

The hardware DOES reflect the price.

Where else can you get a $3000 system with dual 1.25 GHz frontside bus? or the performance of two 2.5 GHz G5 processors? Or the ease of use and flexibility of Mac OS X.

Yes, if you want to pick around looking for problems, you can always find one thing that falls short. Heck, I don't like the cupholders in my Lexus. That must mean that the car sucks and isn't worth the price, right?

It's an extremely powerful system for $3 K - even with the existing video cards. Yes, it would be more powerful with more expensive video cards, but that would also make it more expensive - and very few professionals would benefit from the extra cost.

Quit whining.

[iggyb]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

hold on a sec


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not everyone needs a powerhouse $400 video card. Just because you might be a graphics professional doesn't mean everyone is. Sure, it would be nice to see it as an option but let's not get carried away.

Cute. But, since you're not aware, I should inform you. Apple caters to the graphics professional. I don't think it's getting carried away that people are upset at Apple for putting in older cards. It might not affect your emailing, but it does play into businesses that need some serious video editing done.

[hmg]

Why all the complaints about the video cards?
Doom3 will run quite well. Do you car about a few extra frames? really?
What, you need something more powerfull so that you can play Half-Life 2? Or Far cry? oh... hang on.... ;)

There's nothing wrong with a 9600XT or a 9800? Lightwave runs perfectly well on either and if you are a high end 3D person you'll have a much more expensive (proper) professional card anyway!

[BenRoethig]

Would have been a nice upgrade back in February. We got got now: 1 new model with $200 price cuts on the other two models, hand me down video cards, and an architecture that will be obsolete in 30 days. I would rather they hold off and release nothing rather than this. As much as I hate to say this, we might have been better off putting Athlon 64s in our machines. we'd atleast have powerbooks by now.

[sabbath999]

Interesting. Top line (as of this posting) shows a refurbed 2.0 PM at $2499, that's $100 higher than it has been lately.

Also, the price of the 20" imac has dropped significantly again.

[jragosta]

<begin agreement rant>

It's quite sad, really. If it wasn't for the dual processors, these machines would be consumer grade. Apple really needs to work on putting together a coherent package.

A proper letdown. I need a new machine to serve up my home network and crunch a few numbers - this nForce sucks - but with these specs and price point, the new G5 ain't it.

Consumer grade? With dual 1.25 GHz frontside bus? And dual G5/2.5?

You people bitching about the video card have gone from being simply annoying to being absolutely ridiculous.

A video card isn't the only thing defining a machine. By any standards, these are exceptionally powerful desktop systems.

[King Cobra]

My thoughts about the PowerMac update (aside from the graphics card issue): We basically got one Mac model improvement, and it's a pretty big one. We now have liquid cooling on the big machine, a 500MHz jump (ignoring dual processors) over the 2nd fastest model (biggest yet), and we have kept the same price for the top of the line model, as supposed to increasing it.

Though there is a very nasty fish smell coming from IBM...should be interesting to see what happens on the 28th.

[dopefiend]

Consumer grade? With dual 1.25 GHz frontside bus? And dual G5/2.5?

You people bitching about the video card have gone from being simply annoying to being absolutely ridiculous.

A video card isn't the only thing defining a machine. By any standards, these are exceptionally powerful desktop systems.

A bad video card can cripple the performance of a system ;)

[Lancetx]

Whatever happened to all those leftover previous low end machines (1.6)? There are no new ones in the Special Deals section as they usually have after a new product introduction. I was just thinking about getting an entry level PowerMac and there's no way I am paying 2000 for dual 1.8. The previous lineup included some more affordable and reasonably-priced machines.

I also wonder if someone ordered G5 1.6 in the last week or so whether they got an upgrade to 1.8. Just for information purposes.

Contact your local reseller or Apple retail store because they'll still have some left for several days/weeks most likely. I'd expect that the remaining new in the box 1.6's will probably get a $200 or so discount from yesterday's prices while they last. The $1,999 new Dual 1.8 seems to be a better deal than $1,599 for a closeout single processor 1.6 though, but they should still be out there to buy for a while.

[jragosta]

Cute. But, since you're not aware, I should inform you. Apple caters to the graphics professional. I don't think it's getting carried away that people are upset at Apple for putting in older cards. It might not affect your emailing, but it does play into businesses that need some serious video editing done.

And for the graphics professional, there's little benefit to a video card faster than the ones they offer.

Thanks for confirming his point.

[realityisterror]

and they're adding a new dual 3.0 at wwdc... or maybe steve-o lied!!

not quite what was expected... but the liquid cooling is cool... (no pun intended)

reality

[CmdrLaForge]

What I think:

Good:
A plus is 2.5 GHz. Thats really great. The superdrive is great as well. But
What I saw is that you can get now the bluetooth keyboard and mouse as BTO instead of the regular one !

Bad:
64mb FX5200Ultra? Are they crazy ???
256mb ram for the low end model ?? Are they crazy ???
No dual layer superdrive as BTO ? Well maybe too early, but I really hope for the next revision.
1.8 and 2.0 ??? Are they crazy ??? Where are the 2.2 or 2.4 models ? Why is the low end model 1.8 and 2.0 ???

[machinehead]

In the PC world liquid cooleing is used most often to make overclocking stable. It's a bad sign (though the technology's interesting and efficient). Clearly Apple are pushing that 2.5 so hard it'd burn up without a liquid cooling solution. I imagine they were utterly desperate to get to 3GHz and failed (at least with enough volume).

At least they'll now be able to choose to run chips faster than spec but I guess they're worried the system might not work well (hence the lack of a speed-bump elsewhere in the line). The 2.5 seems like a test balloon to me.

I would bet that Apple are looking at x86 and quad processors very hard right now.

If there's a heat problem in pushing 90-nm chips to 3.0 GHz, then quad processors are a brute-force solution to getting more performance out of slower-than-expected chips.

Quad processors bring their own issues of case volume, air cooling, allocating the CPU workload, etc.

Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall at the big Apple-IBM summit meeting, where Steve asks "OK, what's it gonna be? Dual 3.0's or quad 2.5's? Nobody's leaving this conference room till we have an answer!"

[Xenious]

So the REAL issue holding back new video cards is the fact that Macs don't use a PC BIOS, not that the cards have an ADC connector. Do you want to scream at Apple that they don't use the "standard" PC BIOS but chose Open Firmware instead? No? Didn't think so.

Ahh excellent point. I hadn't considered that difference. Guess in my mind I thought they would all use some similar standard. That's a shame then because other than that I would assume the cards could be identical. That was my main point. Make hardware identical then its just a matter of writing a driver. The bios differences negate that tho.
-jim

[sabbath999]

You really have to give it up to ThinkSecret on this one, they had it completely nailed.

[dopefiend]

There will be no 3ghz anytime soon!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=74835

[g4cubed]

Some people think this is bad, and associate this with a heat problem. To some measure this is true. I think this is paving the way for the 3GHz+ range and possibly quads. How cool would that be! :D But not the price tag!! :( As seen by the new prices today. Wish I would have bought that 1.8 now, guess I'll just have to wait some more.

[broken_keyboard]

Interesting, I can get a return flight to the US for $960. Maybe I should just fly over and get one, it would still be cheaper.

It's not Apple's fault. The G5s insist on flying first class on their trip to Australian Apple Stores which puts the prices up ;)

[proglife]

It's an extremely powerful system for $3 K - even with the existing video cards. Yes, it would be more powerful with more expensive video cards, but that would also make it more expensive - and very few professionals would benefit from the extra cost.

Quit whining.

The video card does not reflect the price. At least make Airport and Bluetooth standard.

[BrianKonarsMac]

great...one new model...does anyone else feel really disappointed? what have they been doing this past year? here's to next year's G5 :mad:

[pjkelnhofer]

If any of Steve J's suboord's are reading this:

Boo. :(

This has to either be a bandaid or delay. Either way, I am not allocating budget for a .5ghz speed bump. Looks like another 12 months (factor in announcement to ship) before I replace our workstations.

Why no default 9800XT? Economics...this hardware *has* to be profitable for Apple.

We wait till WWDC to see any, "and another thing..." surprise. :o

Why are we making it sound like 500MHz is nothing? How long ago were we all using 500MHz computers (personally I still am)?

Is there anything that people here would have been happy with? If it was 3 GHz, then it would be the video cards that suck, if it had x800 (which probably don't exist for Mac yet) they wouldn't have enough RAM, if they had 1 GB of RAM then people would complain that Bluetooth wasn't standard, if Bluetooth was standard, why don't I get a wireless keyboard and mouse, etc.

I Apple has set them up nicely, I would expect more updates by the end of the year. The liquid cooling in the 2.5GHz suggests faster chips to come within the current design. At $1999 for a Dual 1.8GHz G5, I don't care what video card is in it. That is a pretty good computer for the money.

I agree this is not what we expected, but as usual, our expectations were very, very high. Let's all catch our breath and realize that a Dual 2.5 GHz G5 is a pretty fast computer, and at $2999 the price is comparable to similar Intel/AMD based systems.

[DGFan]

sorry. but surely THESE models ARE targetted at graphic proffesionals...??

In part. But video editing pros don't need the faster graphics card. Sound editing pros don't need the faster graphics cards. I would even question the need of someone working in Quark or inDesign for the new graphics cards (heck most people in Quark are still running OS9 so you know *they* don't have the latest graphics cards).

All of the above should be well served by a 9800.
(edit: actually a 9600 should work for them but if they really want the power a 9800 is available)

Are photoshop pros even going to need the faster cards? How much photoshop work can be offloaded to the GPU? And the 256MB VRAM on the 9800 should be enough for the large dualie monitor setup with room to spare.

(edit: so all we're left with is the Lightwave and Maya folks - and IMO that's not enough to change the base configuration)

[deedee]

I do not know if anyone else has noticed this, but the new models ar running with dual frontside busses. The 1.8 has dual 900mhz and the dual 2.0 has dual 1ghz. If you ask me that is a good speed increase.

[ewinemiller]

Bad:
No dual layer superdrive as BTO ? Well maybe too early, but I really hope for the next revision.


Not too early, Dell's offering it on laptops already!

[DGFan]

They should make up there mind. is the 1.8 faster or not!

http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html

I bet the 2.0 on top should read 2.5 and the first 1.8 should read 2.0

[DGFan]

Whatever happened to all those leftover previous low end machines (1.6)? There are no new ones in the Special Deals section as they usually have after a new product introduction. I was just thinking about getting an entry level PowerMac and there's no way I am paying 2000 for dual 1.8. The previous lineup included some more affordable and reasonably-priced machines.

I also wonder if someone ordered G5 1.6 in the last week or so whether they got an upgrade to 1.8. Just for information purposes.

Wasn't there a special deal Apple was running internally for the 1.6s? I seem to recall reading about that a few weeks ago.

[brap]

Consumer grade? With dual 1.25 GHz frontside bus? And dual G5/2.5?

Yeah. Consumer grade system with a kickass core. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but the stock RAM you get, the stock video card, lack of GBit Ethernet, lack of dual-layer DVDRW, lack of everything else companies like Dell use to differentiate between consumer and professional grade.

A video card isn't the only thing defining a machine. By any standards, these are exceptionally powerful desktop systems.
Agreed, they are powerful, but come on - only with major league upgrades. This should be as standard - which business in their right mind would make the jump over to Mac if the cost to make their "professional grade" equipment satisfactory in the real world is so disproportinately high?

[csimmons]

Are any of you over 16?

I wonder, because:

-living by the rumor sites;
-saying "Well, I'm not gonna buy a G5 now because Steve Jobs lied", etc.
-bad-mouthing Apple because of something they had little control over (IBM makes the G5 chip, NOT APPLE

all seems a little childish to me.

I do agree that Steve Jobs' mouth should "stop writing checks that his @ss can't cash", as we say in my neighborhood. :rolleyes:

[DGFan]

Liquid cooling mus tme a last resort. If the 2.5's could run air cooled without it they would. In the PC world liquid cooleing is used most often to make overclocking stable. It's a bad sign (though the technology's interesting and efficient). Clearly Apple are pushing that 2.5 so hard it'd burn up without a liquid cooling solution. I imagine they were utterly desperate to get to 3GHz and failed (at least with enough volume).


I disagree. In the early days (like my original 486) CPUs just had fans. Eventually they upgraded to giant heat sinks with fans. Was this a "bad sign"? No, it's just that sometimes to advance you have to get creative. If you can't make a chip run just as cool as the previous generation, there is nothing wrong with improving how you cool the chip.

[HiRez]

Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall at the big Apple-IBM summit meeting, where Steve asks "OK, what's it gonna be? Dual 3.0's or quad 2.5's? Nobody's leaving this conference room till we have an answer!"I won't be buying these machines at their current prices, but I'd put down my credit card for a $2,500 quad 1.8 GHz PowerMac right now! Or $3,500 quad 2.5 GHz. Imagine being Apple and getting to advertise a 10 Gigahertz personal computer!

[media_jedi]

Something we should really take into consideration is that a dual G5 2.5 GHZ processor (if it ships in July) will be the highest clock speed for a mainstream 64 Bit processor. AMD ( the only real comparison) with their Opteron CPU has only just shipped a 2.4GHz part and this part is in very limited availability.

Also if we look at pricing to build similar units, (and I mean actually using decent parts in the PC/Opteron and not just the cheapest junk you can find) you will notice there actually isn't much of a price difference at all.

Here is an example of parts available in Toronto, Canada for a good Opteron build:

Remember these prices are in good old Canadian dollars and the exchange rate is about $1.35 CAD for every $US dollar.

Opteron Box

2 2.0 GHZ CPU $689x2 $1378
MSI*K8T Master2 FAR K8T800, Dual CPU $315
KingMax 256MB*PC-3200 DDR400*SDRAM $73 x2 $146
Lian-Li PC-68 Aluminum Case $198
Antec True 430 PSU $109
Pioneer DVR-107 OEM $127
Seagate 160 S-ATA 8MB Cache $168
Sapphire Radeon™ 9600XT 128MB*DDR $244
Win XP*Pro Full OEM *for sale with system only $229
Microsoft Keyboard PS/2 & USB*OEM $39
Microsoft WheelMouse Optical OEM $23
BT 3-port FireWire 800 PCI*Card $68

Opteron 2.4GHZ option $1139x2 $2278


Dual Opteron 2.0 GHZ System $3044 Dual Opteron 2.4 GHZ System $3944

Notes on the above systems, the Li-an Li Case is nice but nowhere near as well-built (or classy looking) as the G5 case, and the included G5 keyboard/mouse are nicer as well. If you want to go with liquid cooling in your 2.4GHZ machine the cheapest full kit I could find was:

Thermaltake A1604 Aquarius II $174.98

Could you build the same system cheaper? Yes, if you want to use inferior parts that don't compare to their Apple equivalents.

Now the equivalent Apple Systems are as follows (modem removed since their is no modem in the Opteron System):

Dual 2.0GHZ Apple G5 Upgrading to 9600XT and removing 56k modem = $3528
Dual 2.5 GHZ Apple G5 removing the 56K Modem =$4158


So our price difference for very comparable systems is $484 for the 2.0 GHZ systems and $214 for the 2.4/2.5GHZ systems (only $40 if you go with the liquid cooling option).

Of course there are cons for each system, like no PCI-X or independent PCI buses on the Opteron systems (the lack of independent buses is vital for AVID DNA users, and other high end external storage usages), lack of room for drive upgrades on the G5 systems, and lack of higher end video card options. Of course when you purchase the G5 you get to use OSX and have access to Apple's wonderful pro applications like Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, and Logic Audio.

All I'm trying to say with this rambling post is that the current G5 lineup is actually a pretty good value for the power that you are getting. I'm not a Mac Fanatic per say, I've got three computers in my video lab 2 PCS, and a Powerbook, but I do feel for top end pro stations these new G5 towers are great products. Of course if I have the money I'll buy both an Opteron system and a G5 2.5 GHz but that is another story.

take care

[agreenster]

I

AM

SHOCKED


Not what I expected at ALL. Liquid cooled? Woah. 2.5? Woah. Such a gap between 2 and 2.5. Woah.

Still offering crappy video cards? Woah.


:eek:

[blackcrayon]

Yeah. Consumer grade system with a kickass core. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but the stock RAM you get, the stock video card, lack of GBit Ethernet, lack of dual-layer DVDRW, lack of everything else companies like Dell use to differentiate between consumer and professional grade.


Lack of Gbit Ethernet? Err what do you mean? They all have gigabit ethernet... Unless you mean lack of TWO gigabit ethernet ports? :confused:

[vrc]

I'm sorry, but what a disappointment! I recently sold my Dual 2 GHz, because unlike Apple's usual designs, it is really too big with no real expansion. I was hoping that the service manual shots, which clearly show a smaller Mobo, was what we were going to get. In the service manual shots it looked like we would be able to add additional drives. More PCI slots would be nice too. I'm sure this is just an interim machine until what loooks to be heat issues are resolved and maybe then the 3 GHz will be here. December/ January should be about right.

[DGFan]

Such a gap between 2 and 2.5. Woah.


They are probably having yield problems above 2.0 Ghz. It would make sense in those circumstances to offer just one model that can ship in quantity rather than offering two models that both have backlogs.

[BrianKonarsMac]

has anyone else noticed ADC is here to stay? at least for now. Well this update certainly makes me happy I didn't wait, and makes every owner of a dual 1.8 or 2.0 laugh at all the waiters. Me and my Rev C 12" are pointing our fingers at you. What happened to Gigabit Ethernet!?!?!?!?!?

[macridah]

What about the xServes? Would it be too early to upgrade those. I think it would be of best interest to get those up to speed so when companies built supercomputers, they get the highest ranking possible. Boy, Virgina Tech would be pissed -- i want another trade in ... ha.

[justytylor]

Cute. But, since you're not aware, I should inform you. Apple caters to the graphics professional. I don't think it's getting carried away that people are upset at Apple for putting in older cards. It might not affect your emailing, but it does play into businesses that need some serious video editing done.

I don't know if anybody pointed this out yet, but:

VIDEO EDITING DOES NOT RELY ON THE VIDEO CARD! I don't know where people get these ideas, but I keep seeing the misconception iggyb repeats here. Editing video relies on bus speed, drive speed, and the main processors. Photoshop, for the most part, does not rely on the GPU to process its filters and effects. I'm not sure about the relationship between GPUs and 3D graphics rendering beyond how important they are for games, but I do know that with some very few exceptions, the GPU is not used for film or even video-level 3D rendering. One exception is the Balrog from Fellowship of the Ring: the fire effects were animated sprites mapped to a 3D structure and animated in realtime using an ATi card. It's in Cinefex if anyone wants to track it down.

3D hardware accelerates two things: games and QuartzExtreme.

Sorry about the rant, but I got tired of seeing this. You know what: for all of you fence sitters, if you bought the machine, you'd be the happiest Mac user on the planet. My 1.6 GHz G5 hasn't let me down yet, and it's long in the tooth (how?) and "crippled."

Yes, I'm an apologist. But I'm also a realist: does it do what you need? Yes? Then get it and stop complaining about things you don't understand.

[dopefiend]

take care

Remember though jedi, these systems will have to be good for a 6 month to year period or so.

The 3 ghz isn't coming out for a while, (said by apple official) and opterons will continue to climb and get cheaper ;)

[mactarkus]

I've been waiting impatiently for nearly a year now. Since my primary machine is a G4/800 iMac, 1 GHz of a bump quickly swallows my whole computer not to mention those are 64-bit G5 processors. I'd buy today if they had an ATI x800 or an nVidia 6800 *and* Cinema displays to match the G5s. If I'm going to do it, I'm going do it all the way.

[displaced]

What the fsck happened to the 9800 XT? Didn't the X800 just come out, why aren't they using that???

I think the current thinking behind the lagging of Mac graphics cards is the lead-time involved in incorporating ADC support. Manufacturing a (relatively) small number of custom cards must create some kind of delay, assuming that the ADC-variant is developed after the standard board has been produced, tested and released.

Of couse, rumours that the new displays will drop the ADC requirement should help to alleviate this. IIRC, the only difference between the PC and Mac cards is slightly different code in the board's firmware.

[kcmac]

Anyone seen this?

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9800/radeon9800proseme/index.html

Just announced today.

[brap]

Lack of Gbit Ethernet? Err what do you mean? They all have gigabit ethernet... Unless you mean lack of TWO gigabit ethernet ports? :confused:

My bad. Was under the impresison the onboard ethernet was still 10/100, with the PCI-X GBit upgrade an option. :rolleyes:

[killmoms]

I think the current thinking behind the lagging of Mac graphics cards is the lead-time involved in incorporating ADC support. Manufacturing a (relatively) small number of custom cards must create some kind of delay, assuming that the ADC-variant is developed after the standard board has been produced, tested and released.

Of couse, rumours that the new displays will drop the ADC requirement should help to alleviate this. IIRC, the only difference between the PC and Mac cards is slightly different code in the board's firmware.

Please try reading the whole thread before you post; this was already addressed. The primary problem of Mac graphics cards lagging behind PC ones is that the ROM on the card needs to be re-written to interface with the Mac's Open Firmware, which is significantly different than PC's BIOS.

--Cless

[pjkelnhofer]

For everyone complaining that these are too slow and/or expensive. I would like some one to post a Intel/AMD based system with similiar performance/specs at the same price:

• Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
• 1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
• 250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
• ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
• 8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)

Subtotal $3,520.00

This is simply what you pay for this sort of performance.

If the G5 iMacs are truly coming at WWDC, they will take care of the sub-$2000 market for Apple. The PowerMacs (now more than ever) are for people with a need for raw power. I would expect Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, Motion, etc. All of the high-end Apple Software to soon be optimized to run on a Dual G5 system. When that happens this computers will really fly!