politics v.4

[jefhatfield]

the democrat hatman is on the rant again

bush led the way in accusing corporate greed with enron and worldcomm, but what is this now with his own inproprieties?

he's not in office even two years and so far, he has shamed himself more than anything bill clinton could have done in eight years

i hope for w's sake, he did not involve himself in insider trading...i have liked his job as president so far

[Rower_CPU]

Yeah, I thought the recent "heat" he's gotten from the press has been overdue.

He's been let off the hook with the whole "War on Terror" thing.

If somethings comes up, or if they find those reports/files that were "lost" it will be a nice comeuppance for all those morally holier-than-thou Reps who trashed Clinton.:p

[3rdpath]

they're both in a world of trouble.

cheney's being sued for cooking the books at haliburton and dubya's got a lot of explaining to do over his harken stock activity( among other financial transactions).

the gop(gluttons of privilege) spent 70 million to investigate whitewater...i sure hope they're ready to pony up to get to the root of this( yea, right...)

btw, i do believe hillary clinton had her hand in the cookie jar-and poor rex hubble's gonna just rot away. thats cold-blooded even by political standards.

sadly, i don't think anything will come of the dubya and cheney investigation...most of the politicians are too busy lining their own pockets.

the politicians will all stand up and make grand speeches about protecting the common people(those not in politics) but when the cameras are turned off-its back to screwing the public.:mad:

[sparkleytone]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the democrat hatman is on the rant again

years and so far, he has shamed himself more than anything bill clinton could have done in eight years



excuse me but that is ************. the only person with equal shame as clinton in office was nixon. bush may have his own inproprieties and so may cheney, but neither of them committed perjury. PERJURY, can you believe that?? most people dont care, because they dont realize that it is one of the most important ideas in the justice system. so don't go telling us that bush has shamed himself more than criminal clinton.

[alex_ant]

What the hell do you expect when you elect an ex-alcoholic crackhead failure millionaire son of a millionaire oil tycoon to the presidency? It's a wonder the country hasn't collapsed in flames yet. W is doing better than I expected he would, even if that isn't saying much.

[wwworry]

Originally posted by sparkleytone

so don't go telling us that bush has shamed himself more than criminal clinton.

So let me get this straight. You would rather someone steal your money (which insider trading is) than someone lie to you about an affair they had. I could understand that if you were married to Clinton.

What about lies by omission? Wasn't Bush's failure to notify the SEC until 34 weeks after his trading a lie by omission?

Also, comparing a lie about an affair to plots to steal a national election (Nixon's) is a bit unfair. I suppose, though, that if you are glad that the man who got less votes won then election rigging is not that bad either.

We could go on. What's worse, lying about an affair or putting some innocent life at risk by drunk driving?

What's worse, going to Oxford to avoid Vietnam or signing up for the reserves and going AWOL for 1.5 years of the 2 year term?

[Backtothemac]

Everyone, this is real easy. The "scare" tactics that the dems are using. He was investigated by the SEC in the early 90's, and this was brought up when he ran for governor in Texas, but THERE IS NOTHING TO IT.

There was no wrong doing, and there is nothing to find, because there was nothing wrong with what was done. Plain and simple.

Man.

Medascare, Welscare, Wall Scare. Cacn they every come up with anything legit? :D

[Taft]

In this economic climate--with the markets weak (and I mean really weak), unemployment up, and consumer confidence down--these corporate scandals are going to start really upsetting the public.

People are losing faith in the markets because they don't think they can trust the companies they are investing in. CEOs and other officials are being caught red handed trying to lie about earnings, fudging accounting numbers and giving themselves bonuses as the employees and investors get screwed. This isn't a good situation.

And now we have George W. saying he's going to clean up the corrupt corporate culture. Excuse me if I don't believe him.

Nearly every action he has taken in his presidency has clearly favored corporate America. The tax cut is a perfect example. But also other things, like his energy policy. He and little ****y Cheney have also been in questionable positions in their own corporate dealings. These two are engrained in the business community of the United States and have shown nothing but a willingness to pander to their needs.

How can we trust these two to reform corporate America and restore consumer, investor and employee confidence? I, for one, cannot.

I hope the rest of America sees this horrible conflict of interest and votes appropriately in the next election.

Taft

[Backtothemac]

Yes, Taft, I agree. I hope that Americans see the light. I hope that they realize how they are being disempowered. Stuck to a life of medocrity. How they should strive for nothing. Be happy with being middle class. Send their kids to run down schools and be happy about it. They should pay 50% of their income in taxes, and pay for sex change operations through tax dollars. They should give up their right to choose which car they drive and only drive fuel efficent vehicles. But, they must give a woman the right to choose to take her own childs life. They should defend the life of the murderer, and play 911 for the world. They should realize that they should keep pumping tax dollars in a corrupt and bankrupt social security structure. They should reward people that want to stay put in life. They should never, ever, say the word God in school, or at a public function for fear of offending someone. They should not pray in school, or in government proceedings. They should save the spotted owl, and put 10,000 people out of work. They should do all of these things.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Everyone, this is real easy. The "scare" tactics that the dems are using. He was investigated by the SEC in the early 90's, and this was brought up when he ran for governor in Texas, but THERE IS NOTHING TO IT.

There was no wrong doing, and there is nothing to find, because there was nothing wrong with what was done. Plain and simple.

Man.

Medascare, Welscare, Wall Scare. Cacn they every come up with anything legit? :D
Funny, that sounds just like the democrats when the republicans were going after clinton. It never stopped them from digging and digging and trying to destroy his image and waste taxpayer money.

Whitewater, hairgate, fbigate, etc... and all they came up with was him lying about getting head by an intern.

I say we keep digging, I'm sure something will come up.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Yes, Taft, I agree. I hope that Americans see the light. I hope that they realize how they are being disempowered. Stuck to a life of medocrity. How they should strive for nothing. Be happy with being middle class. Send their kids to run down schools and be happy about it. They should pay 50% of their income in taxes, and pay for sex change operations through tax dollars. They should give up their right to choose which car they drive and only drive fuel efficent vehicles. But, they must give a woman the right to choose to take her own childs life. They should defend the life of the murderer, and play 911 for the world. They should realize that they should keep pumping tax dollars in a corrupt and bankrupt social security structure. They should reward people that want to stay put in life. They should never, ever, say the word God in school, or at a public function for fear of offending someone. They should not pray in school, or in government proceedings. They should save the spotted owl, and put 10,000 people out of work. They should do all of these things.
Do you realize how inane that comment was?

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Do you realize how inane that comment was?

Do you realize how accurate it was?

mcrain. There is a big difference between commiting perjury and well, lets see, nothing. If you or I had committed perjury, we would still be locked up, and would continue to be for a long time.
I don't care if he got a B**w job, just not in my office, and not on my time. I care that he commited obstruction of justice and got away with it. What kind of message is that for America's youth. If you are in a position of power, then you can lie under oath, commit obstruction of justice, and get off scott free.

[wwworry]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Do you realize how inane that comment was?

Yes, it's like he took just took a big crap because what he said is pure *****.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Yes, Taft, I agree. I hope that Americans see the light. I hope that they realize how they are being disempowered. Stuck to a life of medocrity. How they should strive for nothing. Be happy with being middle class. Send their kids to run down schools and be happy about it. They should pay 50% of their income in taxes, and pay for sex change operations through tax dollars. They should give up their right to choose which car they drive and only drive fuel efficent vehicles. But, they must give a woman the right to choose to take her own childs life. They should defend the life of the murderer, and play 911 for the world. They should realize that they should keep pumping tax dollars in a corrupt and bankrupt social security structure. They should reward people that want to stay put in life. They should never, ever, say the word God in school, or at a public function for fear of offending someone. They should not pray in school, or in government proceedings. They should save the spotted owl, and put 10,000 people out of work. They should do all of these things.

You say that like all of those things are bad. Tsk tsk.

Let me respond. Why do we have run down schools? Why do we have to pay so much in taxes, or better yet, how much did we spend under reagan on military versus social programs? No one has ever say you can't buy whatever vehicle you want, but the government (specifically the dems) have attempted to work towards a reduction in bad emissions and oil usage (yes, there is a finite supply of oil). Abortion, whether you agree with it or not, should not be made illegal because it WILL happen, and if you make it illegal, you are killing women because you disagree with their moral decisions. Always defend the life of the "murderer" unless you are 100%, no, 1000% sure they are guilty. And, even then, what good does it do to kill someone after, yes AFTER, they have already committed the crime? Social security is totally messed up. The only solution is to turn it back into what it was intended to be, money for the very very small percentage of people who lived beyond a target age. Now, that age would be about 83 or so.

God in school. I've got to put this in a separate paragraph. Why do Christians think that it is some sort of attack on them when the government enforces the separation of church and state? It isn't an attack. If you want to go to church, go to church. If you want to pray, pray. If you want to pray in school, go to a private religious school. If you want other people to pray, you can always go on a missionary mission. Those are your rights. Feel free to have fun doing those things. The problem comes up when people in government positions, try to pray or make other people pray, or endorse any specific religion or religion in general, in state sponsored situations. That is clearly an intrusion of religion into government, or vice versa, and is improper under the constitution. Can someone explain why it offends people so much when they are told that the government can't endorse a religion and prayer can not be led by a teacher? Doesn't make any sense to me.

911 for the world? I figured you'd be all for that. It keeps the government pumping money into the military. If we didn't do that, why have such a big military?


What, you want to kill the last of the spotted owls? How bout the rain forest? How bout the whales? Sure, we can just live in a world where the only wildlife is what we keep alive to eat. Oh heck, let's just kill everything and eat engineered food. Oh, think of the fun, we can all go out and shoot everything that doesn't look human. Oh goody, break out the guns!

10000 people out of work? When businesses stop putting people out of work in order to make their bottom lines look better and the bonuses and salaries of the top management look better, then we'll talk.

:) --- btw, good to see you BTTM, and good to have a discussion on these boards that isn't merely a wild claim followed by flaming.

I get so annoyed when people express opinions or hopes about the mac products and then get immediately bashed for saying something. How many newbies have been flamed into leaving for mentioning a PDA or a superdrive in a laptop or for genuinely asking for reasons why to buy a mac (i.e. compare the mac to the PIV)? Silliness abounds if you ask me.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Do you realize how accurate it was?
What the hell do abortion, social security, prayer in school etc. have to do with corporate political influence? Taft never said "Yay Democrats! Democrats 4 ever!" He brought up and questioned the corporate influence on the Bush-Cheney administration. Denouncing government corruption != "defending the life of the murderer." Why not strive for a bit more objectivity, rationality, and individuality in your arguments, rather than towing the Republican party line?

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Do you realize how accurate it was?

mcrain. There is a big difference between commiting perjury and well, lets see, nothing. If you or I had committed perjury, we would still be locked up, and would continue to be for a long time.
I don't care if he got a B**w job, just not in my office, and not on my time. I care that he commited obstruction of justice and got away with it. What kind of message is that for America's youth. If you are in a position of power, then you can lie under oath, commit obstruction of justice, and get off scott free.

WRONG!

He didn't get off scott free. He was charged, he pled guilty, and he lost his law license. If I would have done the same thing, I wouldn't have gone to jail, I would have been charged, and would have entered into a plea with the state's attorney. I would have a conviction for purjury (just like Clinton), I would have paid a fine (sort of like Clinton, but a lot lot less money), and I would have not spent a day in prison (just like Clinton).

Oh, and I would have lost my law license.

[wwworry]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


What kind of message is that for America's youth. If you are in a position of power, then you can lie under oath, commit obstruction of justice, and get off scott free.

Or, if your Dad is the president and has appointed the regulators you can steal peoples money and get off scott free. The SEC choose not to prosecute. That does not mean what he did was legal.

[Backtothemac]

mcrain.

Yes, you are right that it is nice to have an intelligent discussion. Obviously something that wwworry is not capable of. Now for you point. Sure that has always been the arguement of abortion. Make it illegal and it will still happen and young girls may die. Look, this is going to sound real real harsh. So what. If they do they do. Education could stop the abortions. Really explain to women what it does to their bodies. The dangers that it poses. The risks that it generates. Educate people.

Now, I am not a Bush martyr, you know that. I just think that given the other choices he was the best man for the job this time. I also am very supportive of both the school vouchers and the Kennedy education bill that he helped pass. He was very bipartisan in that aspect.

His energy policy sucks, he could be more aggressive in the war on terror. He does have stong corporate ties to corporate America. Better them though than the Chinese right ;)

We will never have a president that everyone likes, but the fact is that we have him. Lets stand by him and if you don't like him, get rid of him in 3 years. That is how it should work. That is what I did with Clinton.

The night he was elected I got so drunk I could not walk. But the next day, he was my President, and I supported him. I though that he should have resigned when it was clear that he had committed perjury. But impeached. No. He should have been a man and resigned. Period. Funny thing is that if he had. Gore would probably be the President right now. Oh, the irony.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by wwworry


Or, if your Dad is the president and has appointed the regulators you can steal peoples money and get off scott free. The SEC choose not to prosecute. That does not mean what he did was legal.

Jesus, can you talk out of your A$$ any more. Have you read the filings? Have you looked at it further than what the media has told you. Everyone in corporate America trades stock. And remember that Enron, and World comm also gave a ***** load of money to the dems.

Get your friggin facts straight, don't believe everything that you hear, and do the research.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Yes, you are right that it is nice to have an intelligent discussion. Obviously something that wwworry is not capable of. Now for you point. Sure that has always been the arguement of abortion. Make it illegal and it will still happen and young girls may die. Look, this is going to sound real real harsh. So what. If they do they do. Education could stop the abortions. Really explain to women what it does to their bodies. The dangers that it poses. The risks that it generates. Educate people.


Medically, abortion happens all the time naturally without the assistance of physicians. When a physician assists, it is very safe. On top of that, RU486 is non-invasive, works, and also very safe. If your argument is that it isn't safe, it is less safe for the mother to have her try to kill the baby with illegal drugs or a coat hanger than to do it correctly.

Who cares? Oh come on, I know you do, you're just saying that.

[alex_ant]

Maybe this deserves its own thread, but why, when someone questions the motives of Party X, must the Party X defenders automatically jump up and accuse Party Y of being worse? It's ridiculous - it's like monkeys throwing poo at each other in a cage.

Republicans, stop seeing yourselves as a party of do-good saints who are the saving grace of the USA, and stop seeing Democrats as a party full of lying criminals.

Democrats, stop seeing yourselves as a party of do-good saints who are the saving grace of the USA, and stop seeing Republicans as a party full of lying criminals.

Political arguments would be so much more insightful and productive if each of their participants were less melodramatic and sensationalizing. Grow up.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Jesus, can you talk out of your A$$ any more. Have you read the filings? Have you looked at it further than what the media has told you. Everyone in corporate America trades stock. And remember that Enron, and World comm also gave a ***** load of money to the dems.

Get your friggin facts straight, don't believe everything that you hear, and do the research.

I haven't read the filings, but if you have a link, I'd be happy to take a look and give you my legal opinion.

As for wworry, be nice. He's been in a bunch of threads where the common routine is for someone to say something, and then for everyone to attack. Give him a chance, he's making some decent arguments, he just hasn't realized that we disagree but we're civil in these politics threads.

[Taft]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Jesus, can you talk out of your A$$ any more. Have you read the filings? Have you looked at it further than what the media has told you. Everyone in corporate America trades stock. And remember that Enron, and World comm also gave a ***** load of money to the dems.

Get your friggin facts straight, don't believe everything that you hear, and do the research.

From what I heard, no-one has seen the filings because Bushy boy hasn't ever released them. That is one gripe that many people have. No-one can see the filings so no-one really knows what went on.

Have YOU seen the filings?? Do YOU have all of the information?

Taft

[Taft]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Yes, Taft, I agree. I hope that Americans see the light. I hope that they realize how they are being disempowered. Stuck to a life of medocrity. How they should strive for nothing. Be happy with being middle class. Send their kids to run down schools and be happy about it. They should pay 50% of their income in taxes, and pay for sex change operations through tax dollars. They should give up their right to choose which car they drive and only drive fuel efficent vehicles. But, they must give a woman the right to choose to take her own childs life. They should defend the life of the murderer, and play 911 for the world. They should realize that they should keep pumping tax dollars in a corrupt and bankrupt social security structure. They should reward people that want to stay put in life. They should never, ever, say the word God in school, or at a public function for fear of offending someone. They should not pray in school, or in government proceedings. They should save the spotted owl, and put 10,000 people out of work. They should do all of these things.

How exactly was this a retort to my arguments? I made the point that there is a huge conflict of interest with Bush and Co. asking for reform when they are so engrained in the environment.

Can you actually respond to this with something other than babbling about why you don't like the democratic party????

I'll be waiting.

Taft

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Taft


From what I heard, no-one has seen the filings because Bushy boy hasn't ever released them. That is one gripe that many people have. No-one can see the filings so no-one really knows what went on.

Have YOU seen the filings?? Do YOU have all of the information?

Taft

Actually the results of the investigation were not public, but the information and situation was. The brief that was filed to the SEC was public just not their findings. It has been has been hashed over like three times in elections. It just won't go away.

[wwworry]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Jesus, can you talk out of your A$$ any more. Have you read the filings? Have you looked at it further than what the media has told you. Everyone in corporate America trades stock. And remember that Enron, and World comm also gave a ***** load of money to the dems.

Get your friggin facts straight, don't believe everything that you hear, and do the research.

Well from what I have read he traded his stock just before the stock price fell and he had inside information. Yes everyone in corporate america trades stock. WorldCom etc. gave money to the dems. Also, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Does Jack Welch's stock in Ford have anything to do with Bush's insider trading?

So what is not straight about those facts? The Harkin Energy insider trading was originally reported by the Wall Street Journal which is not known to be a Democrat publication. The only ones suggesting that he did NOT engage in insider trading are his rabid supporters.

I also pointed out that "an illegal act" is not dependent on that crime being prosecuted. The last time I checked our legal system is not based on "It's OK if you do not get caught."

[drastik]

Big corporations always give money to both political parties, they do it to hedge their bets. From the corporate standpoint, it doesn't matter who gets elected as long as they are your friends. This is like Haliburton buying oil from Iraq amidst an embargo on doing so. They get special privilage because they have friends in high places, not because there is something inherently better or moral about them. Dems let it go on, too.

The danger of an accounting scandal in the White House is extremely scary. This has the potential to truly mess up the economy. Investers are allready terrified, the market is now officially in the toliet, deep in the toliet. Everyone feels lied to and their right to feel that way, they've been getting lied to and ripped off. Its one thing to have a big, faceless corporation, which nobody thinks of as friendly or goodnatured anyway, lie to you to rip you off, its another to have the person who should be the most trusted man in the nation be exposed as a liar and a cheat.

I don't know what happened back then, and I'm not going to have access to the information, so I'm not saying Bush will be exposed as anything, I'm just talking about the potential damage.

On the other hand, This isn't the first time Cheeny has been accused of some impropriety, and evidence hidding and tampering is his style to date (ie, refusing GAO access to records with no precident or right to do so.) My feeling is that Bush will be cleared, but something is going to get **** Cheeny.

[edit/] Sorry, I start spelling badly if I type quickly:rolleyes:

[mcrain]

Today's Houston paper has an article on this with some history.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/business/1490368

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by sparkleytone


excuse me but that is ************. the only person with equal shame as clinton in office was nixon. bush may have his own inproprieties and so may cheney, but neither of them committed perjury. PERJURY, can you believe that?? most people dont care, because they dont realize that it is one of the most important ideas in the justice system. so don't go telling us that bush has shamed himself more than criminal clinton.

true that bush has not been actually found guilty of anything...maybe i should not have used the term shame... (potential)crime is more like it

also, it's good to have someone here, i think, somewhat on backtothemac's side...he he

the very thought of the most miniscule possibility of either bush or cheney having dealt in dirty dealings (stealing) and now pointing fingers at corporate america is far scarier than a two term dem who lies about his affairs (which didn't steal from an sec entity)..in mba school, i learned of no bigger sin than insider trading

i will tell you this, my money says that the odds of either bush or cheney involved directly or indirectly in dirty dealings seems more probable than clinton having even touched monica lewinsky, which i believe he did

my 2 cents

i put up this political thread before i go to bed and i wake up to this...good to know that people on the right, left, and center still care ...anyway, thanks to everybody for their great contributions

though i could see one day having one of the moderators ban political commentary on a mac rumor site since politics, more than religion or sex, brings in the flamethrowers

some of what has been said on this thread would not even make it to crossfire due to the language and unproven insinuations (including some i have stated...but what i present are my feelings and hunches and i never propose to have any findings in my hand as i type my (sometimes irresponsible) posts and attacks towards the gop)

thanks 3rd path for the acronym...gop...gluttons of privelidge...he he

being ex-cia, ex-dod, business school graduate, small business owner, and born again christian (mainliner with evangelical tendencies ;-), i would definitely be a republican if it were not for that "gop" thing

i can't picture jesus, god, or the mother mary having me belong to a party that are the "gluttons of privelidge"...it smacks of the saducees and pharisees tha combatted jesus...something i learned in bible college

ok, how did i do all those things? easy...

1) bad local economy and constant hunt for jobs
2) i am almost 40
3) i have a hard head of an entrepreneur

:p

[Backtothemac]

wwworry.

The stock was traded two months before the stock fell in price. Two months. He did not have access to the information at the time the shares were sold. He made all of the proper fillings as requested, and the only reason it was a story was because he was the presidents son. Now Martha, trading the day before the announcements. That is totally different. Two months is a long time in the stock world.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
mainliner??????????????

Sort of like Bush Jr?????

:o :D :) ;) :p

[3rdpath]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
wwworry.

The stock was traded two months before the stock fell in price. Two months. He did not have access to the information at the time the shares were sold. He made all of the proper fillings as requested, and the only reason it was a story was because he was the presidents son. Now Martha, trading the day before the announcements. That is totally different. Two months is a long time in the stock world.

actually the time period is not the issue.

the issue is did he have inside information and use it in a way that was against SEC regulations.

bush was on harken's board which meant he could have access to any info he wanted...long before that info was filed or made public.

and for what its worth....

why the hell he was chosen to be on the board is one foul smelling mystery.

harken bought his worthless near-bankrupt oil company( bush was one of the most UNsuccessful wildcatters in Texas history...) and figures"hey, he's a crappy oilman with a long history of failure-lets put him on our board..."
( research El Busto if you don't believe me)

thats rich.

he uses the harken stock( which was virtually worthless) to back a loan to buy a share of the Texas Rangers baseball team(for WAY under market value)
he then sells his share of the Rangers for somewhere around 20 million...

call it backroom dealing or money laundering or just plain ol politics...

whatever it is...it STINKS

and please don't reply with what clinton did or didn't do...he's not my idol either.

FOCUS on the issue at hand...politics is a con game. we're getting royally screwed here by the dems and the reps. this isn't a victimless crime. all this money comes from the people who actually work for a living. bankruptcies and bailouts leave the average joe swinging in the wind while the elite take their con game to the next town.

[3rdpath]

Originally posted by mcrain
??????????????

Sort of like Bush Jr?????

:o :D :) ;) :p

there was an old saying in texas my mom used to say to me before i'd head out with my friends- "keep your nose clean".

kinda takes on a whole new meaning with dubya...

:D :eek: :D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Maybe this deserves its own thread, but why, when someone questions the motives of Party X, must the Party X defenders automatically jump up and accuse Party Y of being worse? It's ridiculous - it's like monkeys throwing poo at each other in a cage.

Republicans, stop seeing yourselves as a party of do-good saints who are the saving grace of the USA, and stop seeing Democrats as a party full of lying criminals.

Democrats, stop seeing yourselves as a party of do-good saints who are the saving grace of the USA, and stop seeing Republicans as a party full of lying criminals.

Political arguments would be so much more insightful and productive if each of their participants were less melodramatic and sensationalizing. Grow up.

this could be the second time i agree with alex... whoo!

both parties are a joke. for every corporation sponsoring the republicans, the dems have one as well. for every bad thing the dems do, the reps do one too...

it's pointless bickering. politicians do dumb stuff. most people do actually. plenty of people drink and drive and don't get caught (bush got caught). plenty of people get some schwerve at the office and don't get caught (clinton got caught). now of course, these are the leaders of our country, yes yes... but the fact is, we elected them there. so, unless we change the system that puts those folks up for election, this party biased bs will never stop.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by drastik
From the corporate standpoint, it doesn't matter who gets elected as long as they are your friends.

excellent excellent point.... just wanted to say that. :rolleyes:

[wwworry]

Originally posted by 3rdpath


he uses the harken stock( which was virtually worthless) to back a loan to buy a share of the Texas Rangers baseball team(for WAY under market value)
he then sells his share of the Rangers for somewhere around 20 million...


I did see the Frontline presentation where one of the major buyers of the Rangers asked why they included George Bush and he said "Because of his name."

One of the reasons why Bush's stake in the rangers became so valuable is because they got a sweetheart lease to a new Publicly financed stadium. Yes it was the the texans choice to give the rangers that stadium and yes his father and grandfather's name made him the man he is today.

Backtothemac I am not sure why you are defending Bush so much. Enron's Thomas White as the Secretary of the Army is kind of telling, don't you think? There is the man and then there is the policy. If you are defending Bush to defend his policies then you are doing so for purely political reasons and abandoning any claim to an "ethical" argument.

But I guess your first post in this thread revealed that. You would rather have rule bender/breaker Bush in the WhiteHouse than a more "ethical" centrist.

[mcrain]

The thing that bothers me most about Bush now coming out against these corporate scandals is that the a good deal of the blame can be placed squarely on the shoulders of the republicans who insisted on getting government oversight out of corporations. They insisted on smaller government and less regulatory controls. They insisted on eliminating GAAP requirements.

Now, just so you don't think I'm not fair about things, a lot of the blame for corporations having to do so much shady stuff to try to pad the bottom line results from the terrible practices of the unions, and that is only possible due to the democrats efforts to turn the Unions into a separate branch of the government (it's own check and balance on what the legislature and executive branch does)

[sparkleytone]

so let me get this straight...democrats can try and take the credit for a good economy set in place by a republican congress during a democrats presidential term, but relinquish all responsibility when the improprieties surface??

just like a democrat, saying one thing and denying the same thing 5 minutes later, depending on how it will poll.

[Taft]

Originally posted by sparkleytone
so let me get this straight...democrats can try and take the credit for a good economy set in place by a republican congress during a democrats presidential term, but relinquish all responsibility when the improprieties surface??

just like a democrat, saying one thing and denying the same thing 5 minutes later, depending on how it will poll.

Riiiiiggghhht....

Cause a republican would never do THAT. :rolleyes:

Its called politics. Its called spin. This is how officials get elected and stay elected. This is why I think political reform in general is needed.

Taft

[wwworry]

I agree with political reform. I think there was a billion dollars spent on the last election and no one really knew what the cantidates really stood for. They did not help themselves much, each pushing towards whatever they thought was polling well at the moment.

What a waste of a billion dollars.

anyway,
Originally posted by sparkleytone
so let me get this straight...democrats can try and take the credit for a good economy set in place by a republican congress during a democrats presidential term, but relinquish all responsibility when the improprieties surface??


No one is saying the democrats are blamless. Who said that? Leiberman passed one of the relaxations that led to all this. All of them thought the way stock options are accounted for (or not) was a good thing. (Apple, by the way, has a huge amount of diluting stock options out there. More than most large companies.) But however much the Dems benefited from corporate donations etc. it still does not absolve Bush of the insider tradings and Board of Director Loans etc.

If we did have a system like that nothing would be illegal. Lately it just seems that way.

[Backtothemac]

wwworry, the reason that I support Bush is that he most closely represents my beliefs. Who would have been a more ethical centrist? Gore? The man that sold his soul to a foriegn country?

I personally would have prefered McCain.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Who would have been a more ethical centrist?

nader!

he's a centrist.... right????

haha!

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


nader!

he's a centrist.... right????

haha!
If you're Karl Marx maybe. :)

(I still voted for him, though)

I agree with BTTM about McCain. McCain's beliefs don't really coincide with mine, but at least I can respect him, more or less - I might be willing to settle for a respectable president even if that's one of his/her only positive qualities. Bush / Clinton / Gore / Career Politician X are not very respectable. A LOT of people agree with me, as evidenced by poor voter turnout statistics and the fact that McCain did as well as he did in the last election.

Alex

[3rdpath]

i never thought i'd see the day i'd agree with b2tm AND alex_ant...

but i would've voted for mcCain also...he's made a few mistakes during his political career but he actually admits it...thats a first.

its very clear the republican party didn't think he could be controlled...

they needed a lapdog..and man, they got it.

[wwworry]

That centrist I mentioned was a hypothetical one. I voted for Bill Bradley in the primaries even after he had pretty much given up.

Check this out from the NYTimes:

Maybe top officials at the S.E.C. felt they already knew enough about Mr. Bush: his father, the president, had appointed a good friend as S.E.C. chairman. And the general counsel, who would normally make decisions about legal action, had previously been George W. Bush's personal lawyer — he negotiated the purchase of the Texas Rangers. I am not making this up.

To repeat: the general councel of the SEC was once GWB's personal lawyer!

The guy is just too much of an insider, too tied to the oil industry. McCain would have been much better than Bush. Bush's policies seem mostly aimed at enriching himself and other oil executives which would be fine if he was not one of them. McCain seemed more publicly spirited.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by wwworry
That centrist I mentioned was a hypothetical one. I voted for Bill Bradley in the primaries even after he had pretty much given up.

Check this out from the NYTimes:

Maybe top officials at the S.E.C. felt they already knew enough about Mr. Bush: his father, the president, had appointed a good friend as S.E.C. chairman. And the general counsel, who would normally make decisions about legal action, had previously been George W. Bush's personal lawyer — he negotiated the purchase of the Texas Rangers. I am not making this up.

To repeat: the general councel of the SEC was once GWB's personal lawyer!

The guy is just too much of an insider, too tied to the oil industry. McCain would have been much better than Bush. Bush's policies seem mostly aimed at enriching himself and other oil executives which would be fine if he was not one of them. McCain seemed more publicly spirited.

that makes the kennedy's ties with labor and the mob seem miniscule in terms of dollars and cents

the businessmen swing either way though

during the heyday of the mid to late 90s and into 2000, under clinton/gore, wall street and the financial community seemed to be democratland, usa

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
that makes the kennedy's ties with labor and the mob seem miniscule in terms of dollars and cents


I would venture a guess and say that ties with labor and the mob have very little to do with dollars and cents in relation to the votes and "favors."

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mcrain


I would venture a guess and say that ties with labor and the mob have very little to do with dollars and cents in relation to the votes and "favors."


agreed

[3rdpath]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
that makes the kennedy's ties with labor and the mob seem miniscule in terms of dollars and cents


BTW, many texans consider the bush clan as sad and desperate kennedy wannabes...

if dubya's dad hadn't been president, dubya would now be just another failed wildcatter living in a run-down rat infested trailer park in midland, texas; drinking cheap beer and wondering how he was gonna fix his ford maverick that hasn't run since he hit all those parked cars on the way back from jimbo's do drop inn saloon.

poppa bush has been trying to build a dynasty for quite some time and has been quite successful considering what he had to work with...guess you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

do you think it was an accident that two of his sons were govs of two states with huge electoral votes? imagine the logistics of putting all the pieces in place...impressive and scary.

anyone who thinks the politics of "lesser developed" countries is a shill hasn't paid much attention to whats going on here.

[Taft]

Originally posted by 3rdpath


BTW, many texans consider the bush clan as sad and desperate kennedy wannabes...

if dubya's dad hadn't been president, dubya would now be just another failed wildcatter living in a run-down rat infested trailer park in midland, texas; drinking cheap beer and wondering how he was gonna fix his ford maverick that hasn't run since he hit all those parked cars on the way back from jimbo's do drop inn saloon.

poppa bush has been trying to build a dynasty for quite some time and has been quite successful considering what he had to work with...guess you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

do you think it was an accident that two of his sons were govs of two states with huge electoral votes? imagine the logistics of putting all the pieces in place...impressive and scary.

anyone who thinks the politics of "lesser developed" countries is a shill hasn't paid much attention to whats going on here.

Completely agreed. The sad fact is that the Bush family is just one of the many examples of this in our history. Both Dems and Reps have had some pretty shady business in their past.

This all makes the current finger pointing about current issues all the more ridiculous.

Washington is all one big blame/spin/polling game. The loser of the game is the American people. I really think its time for some serious political reform in this country.

Taft

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Taft
Washington is all one big blame/spin/polling game. The loser of the game is the American people. I really think its time for some serious political reform in this country.


i totally agree. now how do we convince the 99% of americans who seem to not see it or not care that we need big time change??