Online MBA? [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

tristan

Jun 30, 2004, 09:21 AM

Why do you want an MBA? Why do you want to do it online?

The best MBA in the world is the Harvard MBA - it takes two years full time and costs $100k, but it's like a porsche - there's no substitute. (Well, Wharton, but you get the idea.) You'll have the world's best instructors, you'll work with the world's best students, and you'll have the world's best business credential on your resume. You'll probably earn at least $1m more during your career than you would have without it.

But since most people can't get in/don't have the time/don't have the money/can't handle the workload/etc, they have to compromise. So what are your required compromises that makes an online MBA worthwhile? What aren't you willing to compromise?

Answering those questions, and using the best "bricks and mortar" MBA as a benchmark will help you decide what online program you want and whether it makes sense for you.

mkrishnan

Jun 30, 2004, 09:26 AM

This is one of the few I know of from a big name in B-schools:

http://www.***ua.duke.edu/admin/cc/cc_home.html

It seems to have changed somewhat since I looked at it last. Semi-sidestepping what you said about ??? on value of an MBA etc, why exactly do you want one? I don't mean that rhetorically. What I mean is, are you looking for specific business skills to embellish your performance in something you do now, or are you looking for enhanced career opportunities in your current field, or are you looking to change fields, or do you want to learn some interesting things?

I think the answer to that question impacts the answer to your question. Meaning, if its one of the middle two, then the name of the school is *VERY* important. If its the first or the last, maybe much less so, and you may have more opportunities. If it is the last, it may not even be the MBA that's the best choice...you might find more intellectual stimulation in an econ dept....

Also, here might be a better set of forums to look in than MacRumors (not that you're not welcome here... ;))

http://forums.prospero.com/usnews_grad/start

MacDawg

Jun 30, 2004, 09:58 AM

Hmmmmmm...
Harvard? Well, yeah, I'd love that... but the time and $$$ aren't feasible. So, yes, I have to downgrade from there. Why online? Flexibility for one. Evening classes here locally (Atlanta area = University of Georgia/Gwinnett, GA State, etc.) are a definite possiblity. Partial online with some meetings is OK too. I am not in a position to go to school full time anymore, I have to work around my schedule, so online/evening are my apparent choices. I am not young/starting out in my career. I am older, and trying to compete in a very competitive environment.

Why do I want to pursue an MBA?
1) The increased knowledge and exposure to business thinking. My educational background didn't favor the business environment I am now in. I am currently a Project Manager for a major legacy airline in the Customer Service department. (Am pursuing Project Management certification with PMI).I want to advance my career, so I need the additional knowledge and skills an MBA could provide.

2) Because of my career change, my resume would be enhanced with the inclusion of an MBA. I have a lot to overcome in a career change, and every edge is important in this competitive enviroment. It would show initiative, accomplishment and I would obtain additional knowledge/skills that were lacking in my previous path. It would be a tangible way of addressing what I lack in previous business experience.

Maybe that gives a little more perspective to my original question.

Thanks for the suggestion for other forums, and I will probably check that out too... I just spend a lot of time on Macrumors and was interested in your opinions.

Thanks for the feedback.

SilentPanda

Jun 30, 2004, 10:50 AM

I'm currently getting my BS in CS from ACCIS (http://www.accis.edu). They offer an online MBA program. Certainly not as good as a Harvard degree but... yeah. I gotta work full time and I loathe going to class. So this fits the bill for me. You have to be self motivated though. There is no schedule to follow. You go at your own pace (you have to turn in one assignment minimum every two months or else I think they think you're dead... you'll typically do many more than one a month). You have teachers you can ask questions to if you like but some of the easier classes I never ever talked to a teacher.

Anyhow... it works well for me. Plus it's even listed on Apple's Edu store (thanks to some phone calls I made to Apple and my school) so it's very easy to get your student discount. ;)

If you have any more specific questions feel free to post 'em here or PM me. Not sure if I'll recheck this thread or not.

jefhatfield

Jun 30, 2004, 10:51 AM

if money and time are no object, i totally agree that the harvard business school mba is the gold standard...they are the most prestigious, one of the oldest, and the largest on campus program in the nation with a student body three or four times larger than most of their closest competitors...it is networking heaven and networking and entrepreneurial connections and partnerships is half of the mba experience

they invented the harvard case study method which is the standard most mba programs are built upon and the philosophy i studied in undergrad and grad school

most mba programs will not really help your salary that much in your lifetime, but the really good ones can make a difference...but all mba programs will give you more knowledge and while all that knowledge is not applicable, some of it is worthwhile

so i say go for your mba since it really can't hurt you since it's also an unofficial workingman's credential/certification as well as a graduate degree...and one thing will save you time...it's the only major graduate degree that is all undergrad level courses in the first year (which would include some of all of the following: management, financial accounting, managerial accounting, micro/macro economics, statistics and quantitavie ananlysis, finance, hr management, basic computer skills, and marketing) and requires no master's thesis...holder's of real graduate degrees who had to write and defend a thesis/dissertation often have little respect for the mba, but you already have the traditional, rigorous grad degree where you had to go through that rite of passage with a thesis/dissertation

but don't expect the mba is be as easy as a bachelor's degree, either...there is a higher mix of lengthy papers to tests as opposed to tests to lengthy papers as it is in the undergraduate realm...so expect way less rote memorization/multiple choice/true-false questions and more developing full ideas, with facts, and defending them...and having teachers and classmates vie against you...expect some unwarranted abuse, especially in the introductory class...it's mba bootcamp *first management class, and i don't know how they would approach that time honored tradition online ;)

in your second year, expect advanced courses on operations management, finance, marketing, and probably four courses in a specialty like entrepreneurship, telecomminications management, further topics in general management, hr management, accounting, taxation, entertainment management, public policy management, or any other specialty that can be married to a advanced business education

for online mba programs, the gold standard is definitely duke university and last i heard, it's 75k for the full online program...at least it's the best online mba unless someone like harvard, stanford, or wharton, of the ivy league school university of pennsylvania, gets on board with a full online mba

today there are so many online mba programs so if it's knowledge and skills you are after, as opposed to a world class, career enhancing mba, then just about any accredited mba should fulfill your purposes

either way, go for it

i hope this helps

tristan

Jun 30, 2004, 11:16 AM

I'm a little skeptical of the online MBA because I think the MBA environment is essential to the learning process - the group work, the face to face interaction, meeting your professors, etc.

You probably want to do it online because you want to reduce the cost (not just financial, but total cost) of the MBA - but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Look at the benefit side, and what a degree from a top school will get you over your career. Then just pay the cost to get the benefit. The cost may be two rough years financially and a bunch of debt, but compared to an extra $1m of lifetime earnings and more enjoyment working at top jobs, that's nothing. (What's two years next to 25?)

And if two year is just too much, there are a lot of other options: part time MBA, executive MBA, etc. Some schools also have twelve month programs which require less time off work. Why don't you consider an exec MBA?

Think like an MBA - if online is so easy, then everyone will do it. Then what's the value? The harvard (or wharton, stanford, NYU, Georgetown, London Business, etc) brands will always have more value.

jefhatfield

Jun 30, 2004, 11:30 AM

Think like an MBA - if online is so easy, then everyone will do it. Then what's the value? The harvard (or wharton, stanford, NYU, Georgetown, London Business, etc) brands will always have more value.

i wouldn't say everyone...let's think mba and get "quantitative"

around a quarter of the american workforce has a bachelor's degree...three quarters do not have a level of education that high

and the majority of those people with a bachelor's do not go onto graduate school at any point in their life

it just seems that there are a lot of mba types out there since there are over 700 mba programs in the usa alone ;)

bryanc

Jun 30, 2004, 11:46 AM

The first university to offere degrees through distance ed was Athabasca University in Alberta (Canada) (back in the mid '70s). They were also the first to offer an MBA on-line, and it is one of the most respected programs in the world.

Given that their tuition is in CDN, you might find it less expensive as well.

Here's a link:

http://www.mba.athabascau.ca/

Cheers

MacDawg

Jun 30, 2004, 11:51 AM

You probably want to do it online because you want to reduce the cost (not just financial, but total cost) of the MBA - but I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Look at the benefit side, and what a degree from a top school will get you over your career. Then just pay the cost to get the benefit. The cost may be two rough years financially and a bunch of debt, but compared to an extra $1m of lifetime earnings and more enjoyment working at top jobs, that's nothing. (What's two years next to 25?).

Actually, the cost isn't the number one factor in considering online, but rather the flexibility. I realize that it is not ideal, and I would prefer the Harvard type route, but as I said, I am not beginning a career. I have had a career change. I don't have a lifetime of earning left either... I'm nearly 50 now, competing with younger, more savvy individuals for jobs and earnings. I am looking for the knowledge/skills (as well as the certification of them) to be able to at least compete.

I don't have the option to go full time to school... I can't quit, go to school and start over again, I don't have that kind of time left in my life. I can go online or I can do night classes or modular type work. I am willing to pay, but I have to be able to keep my current job.

I realize that there is some skepticism about online degrees and their value, and maybe it wouldn't be beneficial. I guess that's why I'm asking for input.

MacDawg

Jun 30, 2004, 11:54 AM

for online mba programs, the gold standard is definitely duke university and last i heard, it's 75k for the full online program...at least it's the best online mba unless someone like harvard, stanford, or wharton, of the ivy league school university of pennsylvania, gets on board with a full online mba

today there are so many online mba programs so if it's knowledge and skills you are after, as opposed to a world class, career enhancing mba, then just about any accredited mba should fulfill your purposes

Thanks!
I'll check out the Duke program along with the others!

Anybody have any personal experience with the Duke program or other online programs?

MacDawg

Jun 30, 2004, 11:57 AM

tristan

Jun 30, 2004, 01:47 PM

mkrishnan

Jun 30, 2004, 05:03 PM

Ahh - OK, I thought your situation was different. Yeah, you definitely need a program where you can work at the same time, so that's either PT, executive, or online. But executive programs (aka "weekend MBAs") are really made for someone with your career experience. But it may be too expensive, given the return. Tough call - I'd probably do the PT or exec over the online program though. The PMI cert is definitely a good idea, I think.

In automotive project management, PMI is pretty highly regarded too, although nowhere near a good MBA. But again, that's good according to the brand philosophy others have stated....

I also think you're going to get a much better experience with evening or exec programs, for what you want, than online. Especially cuz you'r not in such a tech-centric field. If your future argued for a lot of distance business and international working online, I think you could make a powerful argument that thriving in an online MBA environment *proves* that you're cut out for the work. But if you're in the traditional desk/office/telephone/fax world more, not so much....

FWIW also, I once applied to, was accepted to, and eventually rejected the University of Michigan's evening MBA program. UM is another traditional blue chip MBA program, although slightly below NWU/Stanford/Penn in some areas. My concerns had to do with career path, and I'm now much more happily pursuing something *very* different, but one of the big concerns is quality of students and instruction.

I think these things are really important to consider. And my experience has been that while in any metric sense, a school's evening students are roughly as good (GMAT, GPA, etc) as the day students, the attitude is markedly different. There is a "let's get you out of here so you can get dinner" kind of feel to evening classes at big universities, which I don't find appealing. And that attitude is contagious.

Also at UM it was the case that the best professors -- the famous ones like Noel Tichy and C. K. Prahalad -- rarely if ever taught evening programs.

MacDawg

Jun 30, 2004, 07:22 PM

Good advice... that's why I posted here, I can always count on good information from the Mac fellowship.

Makes me think harder about evenings/weekends over online. My work does require a lot of travel though, usually in chunks. That's the only drawback, because my pursuit will be "on my on" and if my work suddenly requires me to be gone 5 out of 7 weeks and I miss my classes... oh well...

Weekends would be easier to work, and from you are saying, the Executive programs are geared that way. I was not familiar with that type of program. I have seen the title, but never really looked at it. Food for thought.

I am just about ready for my Project Management certification at work (not through PMI), that is our Level 1 program. I was just promoted to Project Manager 8 months ago, so that's pretty good. I took every opportunity I could get for our classes, etc. My next step in that track is certification through PMI. I am looking forward to that.

Anybody familiar with the programs through the University of Georgia, Georgia State or something else in the Atlanta area?

Thanks for all of the great feedback so far. It has been extremely helpful to me.

Account

Jul 12, 2004, 11:13 PM

I will be starting Indiana University's Kelley Direct Online MBA Program this fall. Penn State, Arizona State and University of Florida are others that come to mind. I considered Duke, but cannot afford 9 weeks away from work during the 20-month program.

kasei

Jul 13, 2004, 01:22 AM

Take a look at Thunderbird Executive MBA and MBA programs. Thunderbird has been ranked #1 for 9 years for its International Business program. I am currently working on my Executive MBA at Thunderbird and let me tell you it takes a lot of time, passion and money to do. Make sure this is something you really want to do. An MBA isn't the magic key to the big chair.

http://www.thunderbird.edu

tristan

Jul 13, 2004, 02:39 AM

Biagio

Jul 13, 2004, 03:02 AM

I recently graduated with a Law degree and I thought that was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Possibly this may be a route to choose..then again it is much, much harder and takes longer.

kasei

Jul 13, 2004, 03:09 AM

jefhatfield

Jul 13, 2004, 07:01 AM

I've heard good things about Thunderbird, but I believe it is ranked about #60 world wide - it's not first or second tier. For international business, the best bet is a top US program or top international (INSEAD, London Business School, Ivey, McGill). I don't think any of these have online programs.

there are many different rankings but i have often seen thunderbird ranked considerably higher than number 60 in the 1,000 or so internationally ranked programs...though not generally known for all college majors as a whole as let's say stanford or nyu, thunderbird is a big name in the world of business

casual mba rankings include us news and world report and business week and they rely mostly on popularity and name recognition among non business majors (who are often the hiring managers), and more detailed rankings can be found at petersen's, princeton review, and the gourman report and those rankings rely more on academic content and strength or curriculum (which helps if you want the best of the best in business education or are pursuing academia)...of course some schools, like harvard business school, sometimes places first in all of the rankings on any given year for "overall" mba program

london business school does have an online program and they were one of the first good mba schools to tackle cyberspace

plus_c

Jul 13, 2004, 10:12 AM

Hi,
I'm currently doing an undergrad degree at Wharton, so I see a lot of MBA students. MacDawg, it sounds like you need an EMBA program. You might also want to have a talk with your employers - many are really generous about continuing education, and they might even subsidize an EMBA program for you. You mentioned that you live in the Atlanta area, so I would start locally - when I was looking at business programs, UGA had a good reputation (2 years ago, so that info is fairly current). They're not Wharton or Harvard or anything, but they're a good respectable second-tier. If your employer is generous, go whole hog - Wharton's MBA program is excellent indeed. As for HBS being the business school "gold standard"...as a Wharton student, I take exception to that ;). The most recent rankings I remember seeing put Kellogg (Northwestern University) at the top, followed closely by HBS, Stern, and Wharton.

Maybe I'm being a snob, but I'm a little distrustful of the online programs. Yeah, they're useful for getting those three letters...but how strong is the academic program, really? Think about that before you drop large amounts of money on the online MBA program...and if you choose that route, make sure that the school is reputable in the offline world. Someone mentioned ***ua at Duke...that would be a pretty good choice, if you decide that online is the way to go.

Good luck!

themadchemist

Jul 13, 2004, 04:07 PM

jefhatfield

Jul 13, 2004, 04:24 PM

I would think the real draw of an MBA program (besides the resumé line) would be the networking, as some others have said.

Harvard, Kellogg (which I walk by everyday during the school year), Wharton, MIT, etc., are great not necessarily just because of what you learn, but because of who you meet. Distinguished alumni provide distinguished interview opportunities and the hand-shaking that all you business types so desperately need to get ahead.

However, in addition to time and money to attend those programs, you've also got to be very good to get in.

If the primary goal is to learn something, then maybe the online MBA will be just fine. But if it's to meet people and build contacts for the future, a campus-based one might be better.

if you want the education, the public cal state (cal poly, hayward) and public uc system (cal, davis, ucla, irvine) have excellent mba programs but that "elite" connection/networking stuff is so looked down upon in any state funded school...too bad since it limits one's job prospects for the future...my friend at cal berkeley (haas b-school) had professors and students willing to infiltrate american capitalistic business/infrastructure to take it down so the "workers" could get their "power" back...the hippies are still alive at cal but have shorter hair and bathe more often ;)

themadchemist

Jul 13, 2004, 10:31 PM

if you want the education, the public cal state (cal poly, hayward) and public uc system (cal, davis, ucla, irvine) have excellent mba programs but that "elite" connection/networking stuff is so looked down upon in any state funded school...too bad since it limits one's job prospects for the future...my friend at cal berkeley (haas b-school) had professors and students willing to infiltrate american capitalistic business/infrastructure to take it down so the "workers" could get their "power" back...the hippies are still alive at cal but have shorter hair and bathe more often ;)

haha...My roomie's all about getting into one of the big 5 b-schools. I think it's awesome, though, that you've got liberal, dare I say socialist, businessmen in cali. That's great. :D

jefhatfield

Jul 13, 2004, 11:45 PM

haha...My roomie's all about getting into one of the big 5 b-schools. I think it's awesome, though, that you've got liberal, dare I say socialist, businessmen in cali. That's great. :D

which one?

some of the state and uc schools are more liberal than others...cal, uc santa cruz, and sonoma state university are very liberal...even by california standards

i went to sonoma state briefly and my roomie ran the peace group there and i used to like to debate with her...i didn't mind that she had certain points of view, but she never had sources for any of her "facts"...after graduation, she continued school at uc berkeley and didn't miss a beat...just a bigger better school with even more people who thought exactly like her ;)

i was a liberal leaning democrat then, but even that was too right wing by her standards

themadchemist

Jul 14, 2004, 09:15 AM

which one?

Well, I think any of them. We go to Northwestern, so he drools over Kellogg periodicially. After walking by its building daily, I'm sure the business types get pretty turned on. Most of our economics department's undergrads are gunning for Kellogg. He's also going to apply to Harvard, Wharton, Michigan, Stanford, you know the usual suspects.

some of the state and uc schools are more liberal than others...cal, uc santa cruz, and sonoma state university are very liberal...even by california standards

i went to sonoma state briefly and my roomie ran the peace group there and i used to like to debate with her...i didn't mind that she had certain points of view, but she never had sources for any of her "facts"...after graduation, she continued school at uc berkeley and didn't miss a beat...just a bigger better school with even more people who thought exactly like her ;)

i was a liberal leaning democrat then, but even that was too right wing by her standards

Yeah, we've got very, very liberal folks, too. But the left fringe, although less than savory, has always appealed to me more than the right fringe.

jefhatfield

Jul 14, 2004, 10:12 AM

Well, I think any of them. We go to Northwestern, so he drools over Kellogg periodicially. After walking by its building daily, I'm sure the business types get pretty turned on. Most of our economics department's undergrads are gunning for Kellogg. He's also going to apply to Harvard, Wharton, Michigan, Stanford, you know the usual suspects.

Yeah, we've got very, very liberal folks, too. But the left fringe, although less than savory, has always appealed to me more than the right fringe.

as a demographic group, the most right/right of center leaning group of people i have ever seen are MBAs and MBA students...their polar opposite are law students who overwhelmingly are liberal...but i don't blame them with many conservative politicians threatening to limit how much a lawyer can make on a single case ;)

in the next few months, you will see the gop attack edwards, a former trial lawyer, and lawyers in general...it will get vicious, no doubt

if there was a whole group of politicians from one party vehement about taking apple inc down i would vote against that party ;)

big, medium, and small business is a major recruiter of MBA students...government, non profit, and military are not so much a good fit for a traditional, profit driven MBA...so it makes sense that being allied to private business also means favoring lower taxes for businesses and less regulation which falls more into the conservative camp

that doesn't mean that one has to be a republican if they are a b-school graduate...i went to b-school and i feel very comfortable with my solid belief in my education's overall philosophy and being a fiscally conservative democrat

at business school, undergrad and grad, the bottom line *making money, was mentioned quite a bit and the profit motive was a driving force...few believed a business was about providing a service/product without regard to watching the books...provide a service/product, man, but take in more than you spend out...in other words, make a profit ;)

themadchemist

Jul 14, 2004, 01:50 PM

as a demographic group, the most right/right of center leaning group of people i have ever seen are MBAs and MBA students...their polar opposite are law students who overwhelmingly are liberal...

Of course, conservative economic policy appeals to those who are gunning to be wealthy businessmen. I tell my roommate that sometime soon, he's going to be a stiff-necked Republican whom the rest of the world reviles, but he disagrees.

He does, however, gladly state he is evil and will be wildly successful by being even more evil. His characterization of a consulting job (though somewhat facetious): "I'm going to make money firing people." Essentially, he'll be Bob Slydell. :eek:

but i don't blame them with many conservative politicians threatening to limit how much a lawyer can make on a single case ;)

You see quite a few conservative lawyers. I think that it's academia that's the most blatantly liberal occupation demographic in society, besides union workers.

big, medium, and small business is a major recruiter of MBA students...government, non profit, and military are not so much a good fit for a traditional, profit driven MBA...so it makes sense that being allied to private business also means favoring lower taxes for businesses and less regulation which falls more into the conservative camp

Precisely.

that doesn't mean that one has to be a republican if they are a b-school graduate...i went to b-school and i feel very comfortable with my solid belief in my education's overall philosophy and being a fiscally conservative democrat

I'll engage you on the 'fiscally conservative democrat' debate in the Political forums. I don't want this fellow's thread to be hijacked for that cause.

at business school, undergrad and grad, the bottom line *making money, was mentioned quite a bit and the profit motive was a driving force...few believed a business was about providing a service/product without regard to watching the books...provide a service/product, man, but take in more than you spend out...in other words, make a profit ;)

My dad is a marketing professor. His favorite line to his students: "The customer is God." He believes passionately in the importance of customer service, but of course, not simply in and of itself, but as an important mechanism toward operating a successful, and profitable business. In the long run, a business generally needs good marketing to secure solid profits, and the most effective marketing is word-of-mouth, which requires a good experience, or in other words, good customer service.

It's funny. Every time my family has a tiff with a company--say, Best Buy (as my sig of a year suggests) practices poor customer service, my dad will take the anecdote to his class and incorporate it into the lesson. He can sell pretty much any idea to anyone, and so his anecdotes not only serve as examples, but also demonstrate the power of word-of-mouth, negative and positive.

jefhatfield

Jul 14, 2004, 03:56 PM

You see quite a few conservative lawyers. I think that it's academia that's the most blatantly liberal occupation demographic in society, besides union workers.

you also see quite a few rush limbaugh fans in berkeley i guess if you invited them all to hang out in a small room...but the rush haters would swamp them numerically

like most people, lawyers (7 or 8 years total in college!) want to make a living and the ruling faction of the gop seems to want to put an end to that for most of them...many lawyers make good money going after corporations and it's one of the major cashcows in the field...that is unless the gop steps in ;)

money talks, bullsh** walks, and i don't see many lawyers voting for a party that may limit much of the money that ends up in lawyers' pockets

you may see a gop lawyer from time to time, interested in extremely low pay, conservative social interest litigation, but even union reps and environmentalists are not as staunchly liberal as lawyers...at my old school, a mostly graduate b-school and law school, there was a tiny club for conservative lawyers called the federalist club...they were laughed at and considered a total freak of nature ;)

i have a good friend who votes republican but reaps the benefits, and fancy pay, of making money frivolously suing corporations for mostly trumped up charges...hey, it's the american way...and maybe, john edwards' way ;)

...or at least the gop would like to make america think that those liberal, suing lawyers are ultimately the reason for all the layoffs and generally bad economy the past four years

themadchemist

Jul 14, 2004, 05:39 PM

you also see quite a few rush limbaugh fans in berkeley i guess if you invited them all to hang out in a small room...but the rush haters would swamp them numerically

;) Point taken, but I disagree with you here.

like most people, lawyers (7 or 8 years total in college!) want to make a living and the ruling faction of the gop seems to want to put an end to that for most of them...many lawyers make good money going after corporations and it's one of the major cashcows in the field...that is unless the gop steps in ;)

You're thinking Edwards-style anti-corporation trial lawyers, right? There are plenty of others, though. You mentioned people going after corporations. Somebody's gotta defend those corporations. They tend to be conservative. Those called to the bar who support tort reform (and there are enough of them, too) would probably be conservative. And in addition to your big name, big city trial lawyers gunning to take down big business, you have thousands of "country lawyers" dealing with cases in rural America, for whom occupation influences political leanings far less than religion and other sorts of belief systems. What's more, I'm sure there are plenty of criminal prosecutorial lawyers who disapprove of the liberal standpoint that tends to encourage the heightening of the burden of proof.

It's not like Bush has had any short supply of candidates for judicial appointments, after all. :rolleyes:

If you're thinking about one or two slices of the profession, then sure, you've got more liberals than conservatives. Similarly, you could round up loads of liberals in California, but if you took a trip to South Carolina, you'd be hard-pressed to find even a handful.

Your claim was a bit too general for accuracy, jef.

money talks, bullsh** walks, and i don't see many lawyers voting for a party that may limit much of the money that ends up in lawyers' pockets

And that's why there are conservative lawyers in particular fields: It is profitable.

you may see a gop lawyer from time to time, interested in extremely low pay, conservative social interest litigation,

Yes, corporate defense lawyers are just begging on the street side. :rolleyes:

but even union reps and environmentalists are not as staunchly liberal as lawyers...at my old school, a mostly graduate b-school and law school, there was a tiny club for conservative lawyers called the federalist club...they were laughed at and considered a total freak of nature ;)

This is a generalization, again. Union reps and environmentalists can be broadly classified as liberal because they belong to organizations with limited, focused interests that appeal to the liberal agenda. Lawyers, on the other hand, come in a variety of flavors, with various clients, interests, goals, and agendas. While the sort you saw might have been liberal, that doesn't mean they all are.

i have a good friend who votes republican but reaps the benefits, and fancy pay, of making money frivolously suing corporations for mostly trumped up charges...hey, it's the american way...and maybe, john edwards' way ;)

While the volume of frivolous lawsuits grows tremendously, I take comfort in the fact there are many that punish corporations that really deserve it...And while the system is definitely in dire need of reform, it is unfair to characterize all civil lawyers as sharks trying unfairly to assail big business.

...or at least the gop would like to make america think that those liberal, suing lawyers are ultimately the reason for all the layoffs and generally bad economy the past four years

THAT I can agree with...However, we're treading in dangerous water for the community forum and have gotten totally off topic. :D

jefhatfield

Jul 14, 2004, 06:01 PM

;) Point taken, but I disagree with you here.

You're thinking Edwards-style anti-corporation trial lawyers, right? There are plenty of others, though. You mentioned people going after corporations. Somebody's gotta defend those corporations. They tend to be conservative. Those called to the bar who support tort reform (and there are enough of them, too) would probably be conservative. And in addition to your big name, big city trial lawyers gunning to take down big business, you have thousands of "country lawyers" dealing with cases in rural America, for whom occupation influences political leanings far less than religion and other sorts of belief systems. What's more, I'm sure there are plenty of criminal prosecutorial lawyers who disapprove of the liberal standpoint that tends to encourage the heightening of the burden of proof.

It's not like Bush has had any short supply of candidates for judicial appointments, after all. :rolleyes:

If you're thinking about one or two slices of the profession, then sure, you've got more liberals than conservatives. Similarly, you could round up loads of liberals in California, but if you took a trip to South Carolina, you'd be hard-pressed to find even a handful.

Your claim was a bit too general for accuracy, jef.

And that's why there are conservative lawyers in particular fields: It is profitable.

Yes, corporate defense lawyers are just begging on the street side. :rolleyes:

This is a generalization, again. Union reps and environmentalists can be broadly classified as liberal because they belong to organizations with limited, focused interests that appeal to the liberal agenda. Lawyers, on the other hand, come in a variety of flavors, with various clients, interests, goals, and agendas. While the sort you saw might have been liberal, that doesn't mean they all are.

While the volume of frivolous lawsuits grows tremendously, I take comfort in the fact there are many that punish corporations that really deserve it...And while the system is definitely in dire need of reform, it is unfair to characterize all civil lawyers as sharks trying unfairly to assail big business.

THAT I can agree with...However, we're treading in dangerous water for the community forum and have gotten totally off topic. :D

great points, madchemist

and...

pretty much one thing we agree with is that there are conservative lawyers and liberal lawyers, and a whole bunch of lawyers in between

but...

i am not saying "all" lawyers are liberal or that "all" lawyers are democrats...now, that would be a generalization :)

i would also say that not "all" baseball players who are professionals would "always" beat a mid level college team...but it would be safe to say that most of the time, the pros would beat a mid level college team...so the way i have seen it, most lawyers i have seen/met are liberal most of the time

but i say that, in my life, listening to liberal radio, conservative radio, reading political viewpoints from both sides, that most of the lawyers and law students i have met, talked to, emailed, and seen on tv represent a liberal point of view overall...but not all, or course ;)

so i am making a distiction between "most" vs "all"

unless there is something i have missed in my 40 years, i don't see most or even half of all lawyers right of center

now take MBAs as i have been as a student, and met, talked to, emailed, etc...i would find it very easy to say that "most" (meaning more than 50 percent) of MBAs and MBA students are right of center

of course, i have not seen any official polls on MBAs and lawyers and their political affiliations...it is just from my personal observation ;)

if it turns out that most MBAs were left of center and most lawyers are right of center, then nothing would surprise me...heck, if that was the case, i would more likely predict that the clippers win the NBA, the cubs with the world series, and the bears win the superbowl...all in the same year ;)

themadchemist

Jul 14, 2004, 06:33 PM

and...

pretty much one thing we agree with is that there are conservative lawyers and liberal lawyers, and a whole bunch of lawyers in between

Most definitely.

i am not saying "all" lawyers are liberal or that "all" lawyers are democrats...now, that would be a generalization :)

Fair distinction.

but i say that, in my life, listening to liberal radio, conservative radio, reading political viewpoints from both sides, that most of the lawyers and law students i have met, talked to, emailed, and seen on tv represent a liberal point of view overall...but not all, or course ;)

Do you think that this might possibly have to do with the sort of lawyers who appear in the media? That is, perhaps we hear more from lawyers who tend to take cases that would predispose them to liberalism? After all, you're absolutely right, we tend to see more Alan Dershowitzes than Nancy Graces in the media.

unless there is something i have missed in my 40 years, i don't see most or even half of all lawyers right of center

I think if you were to come to the Southeast, you would agree that a lot more lawyers than you thought ascribe to conservative political ideology.

now take MBAs as i have been as a student, and met, talked to, emailed, etc...i would find it very easy to say that "most" (meaning more than 50 percent) of MBAs and MBA students are right of center

THAT I'll agree with. My dad's kind of an anomaly in that he's not conservative, at least overall. Then again, it might just be that my dad and I discuss social issues more than fiscal ones.

In the fiscal sense, an even higher proportion of MBAs would be expected to be conservative.

Fiscal conservatism, though, can mean a lot of different things. These days, it's meant cut taxes indiscriminately, at least in Washington. However, I think that a large number of fiscal conservatives would argue that in times of high spending, like war, cutting taxes is not beneficial to the economy. On the other hand, some fiscal conservatives say spend less and target the "soft" social programs first. And then there's certainly another brand of fiscal conservatives who set their sights on pork and inefficiency and would like to see that go first.

I think at the higher echelons of the payscale for MBAs (like the ones who don't go into academia :p ), you probably see people who support tax cuts more and more indiscriminately, because of large personal benefits.

It's unfortunate that I can't resist the temptation to allow this to spiral closer and closer to the inevitable...

edit: oh, and isn't it funny that it's just been you and me rattling off for about half the thread now. ;)

jefhatfield

Jul 15, 2004, 09:18 PM

Do you think that this might possibly have to do with the sort of lawyers who appear in the media? That is, perhaps we hear more from lawyers who tend to take cases that would predispose them to liberalism? After all, you're absolutely right, we tend to see more Alan Dershowitzes than Nancy Graces in the media.

I think if you were to come to the Southeast, you would agree that a lot more lawyers than you thought ascribe to conservative political ideology.

In the fiscal sense, an even higher proportion of MBAs would be expected to be conservative.

i could see the lawyers on radio, tv, and print be liberal since i do believe media/mass media in general is liberal to very liberal...but not to the point of a vast left wing conspiracy ;)

maybe if i went to the southeast in georgia, north carolina, and south carolina, i would find many, even most, lawyers to be conservative...fair enough

my wife's recollections, from nyc, and my lawyer friend, portland, ore...and my experiences with lawyers, bay area and los angeles area are all what one can call generally left of center...so combined with the media/mass media, i can see why i have, all my life, mostly 70-80%?? or so, seen left leaning lawyers

but take mass numbers into account...take those major liberal cities including the huge nyc area, los angeles, portland and sister city (he he) seattle, and my very own san francisco bay area with those millions...oh yeah, and i would toss in chicago, detroit, pittsburgh, philly, boston and a whole slew of liberal/traditional democratic cities and i would say...that it would be safe to say/assume, that most lawyers are left leaning and not right leaning in the usa

my friend i used to work with, who is a conservative, thought george bush wiped out gore in the 2000 election...he looked at the us map where republican states were painted in red and democratic states were blue and the map basically looked about 2/3rds "red" for george bush

he thus surmised bush got at least 2/3rds of the popular vote

but i pointed out to him, most of the high population states like ny, cal, the northeast, went for gore, and while most of the map with states like wyoming, mississippi, louisiana, west virginia, idaho, tennessee, and montana went for bush, the numbers and major electoral votes, with high democratic numbers in populated states, were gore states

so gore's populated 1/3 of the map with populous states with a lot of electoral votes pretty much equalled bush's 2/3rds of the map made mostly of sparsely populated states

i can see a lot of lawyers in the sparsely populated states and small to medium sized rural areas but more lawyers in major cities and suburbs and large states (population wise) and have there be a huge majority of lawyers in general being left of center nationwide

i could picture that there may be areas of the usa so conservative that even the environmentalist groups are mostly registered republicans...but mostly due to the fact that the baker, the banker, the hairdresser, and the police chief are also most likely that...but i wouldn't take that example and extrapolate the belief then that most environmentalists are republicans because that's what i mostly saw in the southeast

i think your example of using, what are less populated and conserative areas of the usa, as a reason to think that most lawyers, or even many lawyers, to be conservative to be untrue considering the demographics of the larger numbers of people who live in cities and major surrounding suburbs who tend to be anywhere from just left of center to very far left of center

now if the usa had 50 million people and there were just two or three large cities over a million people, then yes, i could see the majority of lawyers, or just about anybody/group being right of center

btw...great debate though...if it was a hair splitting thing i would leave it alone but unless my next 40 years shows me something vastly different, the most liberal group of people i have ever met are lawyers...that is, right next to environmentalists who happen to live in berkeley, ca ;)

themadchemist

Jul 16, 2004, 01:00 PM

i could see the lawyers on radio, tv, and print be liberal since i do believe media/mass media in general is liberal to very liberal...but not to the point of a vast left wing conspiracy ;)

Well, this could be another point of dispute. I think that conservatives get enough time in the mass media (esp. radio!) to suggest that while the media might be liberal-leaning, it's certainly not liberal to very liberal.

How many hours do Limbaugh and Boortz get on the radio? How much time does Anne Coulter get to rattle off on even the mainstream media? Fox News, anyone? Then, your "liberal" networks like CNN even have the likes of Bob Novak, Tucker Carlson, Judy Woodruff, and Lou Dobbs, who are conservatives.

maybe if i went to the southeast in georgia, north carolina, and south carolina, i would find many, even most, lawyers to be conservative...fair enough

This is definitely what I would think.

my wife's recollections, from nyc, and my lawyer friend, portland, ore...and my experiences with lawyers, bay area and los angeles area are all what one can call generally left of center...so combined with the media/mass media, i can see why i have, all my life, mostly 70-80%?? or so, seen left leaning lawyers

but take mass numbers into account...take those major liberal cities including the huge nyc area, los angeles, portland and sister city (he he) seattle, and my very own san francisco bay area with those millions...oh yeah, and i would toss in chicago, detroit, pittsburgh, philly, boston and a whole slew of liberal/traditional democratic cities and i would say...that it would be safe to say/assume, that most lawyers are left leaning and not right leaning in the usa

[...]

i can see a lot of lawyers in the sparsely populated states and small to medium sized rural areas but more lawyers in major cities and suburbs and large states (population wise) and have there be a huge majority of lawyers in general being left of center nationwide

i could picture that there may be areas of the usa so conservative that even the environmentalist groups are mostly registered republicans...but mostly due to the fact that the baker, the banker, the hairdresser, and the police chief are also most likely that...but i wouldn't take that example and extrapolate the belief then that most environmentalists are republicans because that's what i mostly saw in the southeast

i think your example of using, what are less populated and conserative areas of the usa, as a reason to think that most lawyers, or even many lawyers, to be conservative to be untrue considering the demographics of the larger numbers of people who live in cities and major surrounding suburbs who tend to be anywhere from just left of center to very far left of center

now if the usa had 50 million people and there were just two or three large cities over a million people, then yes, i could see the majority of lawyers, or just about anybody/group being right of center

Well, you've just named some of the most liberal places in the country. Granted, those areas are also highly populous, but I would argue not highly populous enough to suggest that the overwhelming majority of lawyers are liberal.

I'm not arguing that the majority of lawyers aren't conservative. They probably are. But I'm just saying that it might not be as overwhelming as you conjecture.