Apple's Dashboard Widgets

[MacRumors]

David Hyatt updates his blog (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2004_06.html#005876) to provide some clarification on Apple's upcoming Dashboard Widgets.

I wanted to blog briefly to clear up what the widgets actually are written in. They are Web pages, plain and simple (with extra features thrown in for added measure). Apple's own web site says "build your own widgets using the JavaScript language", but that's sort of misleading. The widgets are HTML+CSS+JS. They are not some JS-only thing.

In other words, each widget is just a web page, and so you have the full power of WebKit behind each one... CSS2, DOM2, JS, HTML, XMLHttpRequest, Flash, Quicktime, Java, etc. I'll have a lot more to say later on, but I thought it important to clear that up right up front, since a lot of people were asking me about it in email and such.

[bitfactory]

wow. think of the possibilities... ENDLESS.

[Spock]

Ok I want to control my iPod on my desktop like it were real Like a emulator just for fun

[Wash!!]

is the end of the Konfabulator controversy... ;)

[Freg3000]

is the end of the Konfabulator controversy... ;)

I wish. :D

But what is David Hyatt's connection to Dashboard? I thought he just worked on Safari?

[Kid Red]

And Safari renders web pages right?

[Freg3000]

And Safari renders web pages right?

Ok i see a connection. :o

[Frobozz]

It's good to know that this is written on an existing technology. That really opens it up quite a bit. This will allow code ninjas like myself (a web designer) to build nearly anything. Pretty sweet.

[SuperNerd2000]

Dashboard is great! I'll use it like I used the IE4 Active Desktop.

[BrianKonarsMac]

is the end of the Konfabulator controversy... ;)
as well as konfabulator itself. they can't compete with apple and their CoreGraphics magic.

[Kid Red]

Yea, I'd say goodbye to Con-fabricated.

[Frobozz]

Ok I want to control my iPod on my desktop like it were real Like a emulator just for fun

It could certainly be done with XMLHTTPRequest and a little work. You basically just need an XML file working as the middleman between your iPod and the interface. I'm sure there might be some catches I haven't thought of.... but it sounds feasible.

[nagromme]

Not THAT's nice!

* Widgets in Flash

* Widgets from Dreamweaver (make your own interactive reference info easily)

* HTML manuals or saved sites to refer to

* Widgets all kinds of ways from people who don't know JS

[Spades]

I wonder what this means for my idea for a terminal widget. It would stink if I had to write a small web server to interface with the system. This is actually more limiting than I expected Dashboard to be...

[nacl99]

boo yah Konfab.

[Counterfit]

So, they one-upped (four upped even?) Konfabulator. Heck, even I could make a widget now! It wouldn't do much but... :D

[Jack White]

so thats what the fed ex track your packages thing is

[7on]

It could certainly be done with XMLHTTPRequest and a little work. You basically just need an XML file working as the middleman between your iPod and the interface. I'm sure there might be some catches I haven't thought of.... but it sounds feasible.

Or an iTunes remote that looks like an iPod, and reads the songs from an attached iPod.

[nagromme]

I wonder what this means for my idea for a terminal widget. It would stink if I had to write a small web server to interface with the system. This is actually more limiting than I expected Dashboard to be...

All we knew before was JavaScript and that's still true--but now we know there are OTHER methods too. No new limits have been introduced by this news.

(I wonder how you get the eye candy from JS? Like the flipping stickies? And I wonder where alpha control comes from? I hope Flash widgets can be rendered with no bounding box!)

[SilentPanda]

as well as konfabulator itself. they can't compete with apple and their CoreGraphics magic.

One good thing that can come out of this for the Konfabulator team is that... Windows people secretly want what Mac people have. They already have a start on a Windows version of Konfabulator. I think. I haven't read too much into it. But you know when you show your Windows friend Dashboard they'll immediately knock it and in a week have Konfabulator Windows version installed showing that they can do it to. It could be very beneficial to Konfabulator in that aspect.

[soosy]

as well as konfabulator itself. they can't compete with apple and their CoreGraphics magic.

Actually, Core Image and Core Video are available to any developer. That's what's so great... no more "special stuff" reserved only for Apple to utilize (or at least a lot less).

[Windowlicker]

I never liked the idea of confabulator because it takes space on your desktop, but the same idea included in Exposé seems to make it pretty useful and I probably end up using it (i won't have the Calculator taking space on my dock anymore:).

[Catfish_Man]

Actually, Core Image and Core Video are available to any developer. That's what's so great... no more "special stuff" reserved only for Apple to utilize (or at least a lot less).

Yeah, the dock still has a few special privileges (it can manipulate other applications' windows, like in the genie effect and exposé).

[jragosta]

One good thing that can come out of this for the Konfabulator team is that... Windows people secretly want what Mac people have. They already have a start on a Windows version of Konfabulator. I think. I haven't read too much into it. But you know when you show your Windows friend Dashboard they'll immediately knock it and in a week have Konfabulator Windows version installed showing that they can do it to. It could be very beneficial to Konfabulator in that aspect.


Konfabulator doesn't come close to what Dashboard offers. I found Konfabulator to be completley useless. Either the widgets have to be on top of everything else or on the bottom. Neither one is very practical if you have much stuff going on. With Dashboard, the widgets can be hidden and then appear with a keystroke. That's infinitely more useful.

BTW, as for Konfabulator's assertions that Apple stole this idea from them, they need to go back and look at Desk Accessories - which have been around for at least 15 years.

[Wash!!]

I never liked the idea of confabulator because it takes space on your desktop, but the same idea included in Exposé seems to make it pretty useful and I probably end up using it (i won't have the Calculator taking space on my dock anymore:).

I used Konfabulator once and it bother me that all the widgets littler the desktop so I deleted it. the idea of them floating above the desktop is just very cool, since I'm a hologram designer this appeals to me because items floating above the "focal plane" is a very common thing to do in the hologram to introduce depth and "3D" to flat art..

[RIP]

Konfabulator doesn't come close to what Dashboard offers. I found Konfabulator to be completley useless. Either the widgets have to be on top of everything else or on the bottom. Neither one is very practical if you have much stuff going on. With Dashboard, the widgets can be hidden and then appear with a keystroke. That's infinitely more useful.

BTW, as for Konfabulator's assertions that Apple stole this idea from them, they need to go back and look at Desk Accessories - which have been around for at least 15 years.


F8 does the same thing in Konfabulator.

[Wash!!]

F8 does the same thing in Konfabulator.

The widgets still litter the desktop...big different of what dashboard does... it hides them.

[javabear90]

The widgets still litter the desktop...big different of what dashboard does... it hides them.

Yes, this is one of the biggest points of dashboard over konfabulator I think.

[rt_brained]

F8 does the same thing in Konfabulator.
Not true.

Dashboard moves Widgets off the screen (a la Exposé's f11 key), while Konsposé keeps the Widgets on-screen, but blots out the rest of your desktop (a la Exposé's f10 key).

If I'm wrong on this, or Konfab does work just like Dashboard, let me know.

[siliconjones]

I want to star making my own widgets for dashboard now! Konfabu-who?

[gwangung]

Dashboard does a lot of the same things as Konfabulator, but Dashboard does them in a different way that may be more flexible and may be substantially better.

If that's correct....what is the problem?

[grabberslasher]

Check out this Gadget I made for dashboard:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77686

[nagromme]

In either case, Konsposé is a rip-off of Apple's Exposé :) Some irony there, if Konsposé is what people use to show that Dashboard is too like Konfabulator.

[RIP]

Not true (unless I'm using it incorrectly). Dashboard moves Widgets off the screen (a la Exposé's f11 key), while Konsposé keeps the Widgets on-screen, but blots out the rest of your desktop (a la Exposé's f10 key).

If I'm wrong on this, let me know.


I use Konfabulator. Apparently I didn't understand the differences however I'm not sure what I would like better. I think I like having the option of some going off screen while others being stuck to the desktop.

Sounds to me that Konfabulator still has a purpose.

The funny thing about Konfabulator is that just after Expose was released, the confabulator widgets were shot off screen when Expose was triggered.

They since fixed it....

[gwangung]

Hmmm....a still another perspective:

http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator

His perspective is that the two do the same thing, but Dashboard does it in a different way that's simpler, more open and more flexible. And if that's the case, why should users complainer when Apple "crushes" third party developers by doing it in a simpler, better and probably faster way?

[craigdawg]

I liked the koncept (sorry) of Konfabulator but I had problems with widgets not rendering properly on screen so I removed it. That was probably more of an issue with JavaScript than Konfabulator?

So Apple borrows someone else's idea and ostensibly makes it better.

Just like they borrowed the GUI from PARC and made it better. :D

[hulugu]

is the end of the Konfabulator controversy... ;)


Lots of luck on that happening.
The Konfabulator thing will rage on until Tiger comes out and everyone has a copy.

[X-Baz]

So Apple borrows someone else's idea and ostensibly makes it better.

Just like they borrowed the GUI from PARC and made it better. :D

Well, many (the daring fireball article for one) would say that Konfabulator borrowed the concept of desk accessories from apple - all that happened was that apple was borrowing their own idea back and integrated it into the OS again.

And they bought (not borrowed) the GUI from Xerox.

[RIP]

Hmmm....a still another perspective:

http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator

His perspective is that the two do the same thing, but Dashboard does it in a different way that's simpler, more open and more flexible. And if that's the case, why should users complainer when Apple "crushes" third party developers by doing it in a simpler, better and probably faster way?


Well. That settles it then. :) I side with Apple. Konfabulator; good luck competing with Object Desktop.

Maybe if Konfabulator stuck to it's roots and used the great technology Apple gave them they would have been purchased.

[macridah]

thanks for clearing things up ... by concept or terms the two may seem similiar ... but in reality, they're 2 different technologies; apple being the much more superior one.

Can't wait for tiger!

[rt_brained]

If they could alter Konfabulator so you could, with the stroke of a function key, make some Widgets hide off-screen (like Dashboard) yet leave others on-screen, then I'd be happy to use it. Otherwise, it's a hassle to leave most Widgets cluttering up my desktop.

[rhpenguin]

Microsoft has been doing this with features from Mac OS for some time. Also if you remember the WWDC keynote from 03' Steve Jobs made refrence to fast user switching. I believe his words were, they did it first, but were going to do it better.

Everyone borrows ideas, just some people make it better.

[pgwalsh]

All we knew before was JavaScript and that's still true--but now we know there are OTHER methods too. No new limits have been introduced by this news.

(I wonder how you get the eye candy from JS? Like the flipping stickies? And I wonder where alpha control comes from? I hope Flash widgets can be rendered with no bounding box!)You may have answered yoru own question.. Flipping stickies may use flash for the effect...

[Makosuke]

The article linked above is an extrordinarily good one, with lots of interesting information and opinions, not to mention a firm historical basis and a clear understanding of the technology behind both Konfabulator and Dashboard.

And although you're not required to agree with his conclusions, he makes a pretty good case that Konfabulator one-upped the Desk Accessory concept that's been around for two decades (and improved upon many times during that period by various similar Mac, Windows, and other OS projects), and now Apple's upped their upping. That's the way I see it, anyway.

If you don't read anything else, read the last couple of paragraphs; he explains what's so cool about Dashboard (anybody can use it--an open framework with easy-to-write applets that use nothing but existing languages), rather than the semi-closed, pay-to-use structure of Konfabulator.

I wonder what this means for my idea for a terminal widget. It would stink if I had to write a small web server to interface with the system. This is actually more limiting than I expected Dashboard to be...
If you read that article, he notes that you actually can access Cocoa through Dashboard doodads, it's just not required. So you're probably in luck.

I'm really, really happy after reading that--even I can write a Dashboard applet!

[gwangung]

The article linked above is an extrordinarily good one, with lots of interesting information and opinions, not to mention a firm historical basis and a clear understanding of the technology behind both Konfabulator and Dashboard.

And although you're not required to agree with his conclusions, he makes a pretty good case that Konfabulator one-upped the Desk Accessory concept that's been around for two decades (and improved upon many times during that period by various similar Mac, Windows, and other OS projects), and now Apple's upped their upping. That's the way I see it, anyway.

If you don't read anything else, read the last couple of paragraphs; he explains what's so cool about Dashboard (anybody can use it--an open framework with easy-to-write applets that use nothing but existing languages), rather than the semi-closed, pay-to-use structure of Konfabulator.


If you read that article, he notes that you actually can access Cocoa through Dashboard doodads, it's just not required. So you're probably in luck.

I'm really, really happy after reading that--even I can write a Dashboard applet!

So it's better, faster and more open than Konfabulator?

And that's a BAD thing for Apple to do?

Hrm.

[virividox]

if u can write it you can do it; the possibilities are endless amazing

[iChan]

...
edit: post deleted due to hertz feeling the need to trample.

[MhzDoesMatter]

Hey, you. Yeah, the guy who decided to come to the party late so he could make an entrance. We've been there. We've done that. You missed it. We're moving on.

-hertz

[iChan]

The widgets still litter the desktop...big different of what dashboard does... it hides them.

that is an issue that factored heavily in apple's decision in the design of dashboard. SJ said it himself.

1. an easy way to access them. check
2. an easy way to hide them. check

it amazes me how only apple can tackle a situation or a product, then totally deconstruct it to pin point exactly where the deficencies lay in the current implementations and just does it so much better.

we have seen it with itunes... we are seeing it again. (although, possibly with a far more limited appeal. however, nonetheless appealing to mac-users.)

[iChan]

Not true.

Dashboard moves Widgets off the screen (a la Exposé's f11 key), while Konsposé keeps the Widgets on-screen, but blots out the rest of your desktop (a la Exposé's f10 key).

If I'm wrong on this, or Konfab does work just like Dashboard, let me know.

you are right, but i don't think anyone will argue that konposé is hideous.

with it's layer of parchment-y textured background and cog logo stamped in the middle.

[DGFan]

Not THAT's nice!

* Widgets in Flash

* Widgets from Dreamweaver (make your own interactive reference info easily)
>snippy<
* Widgets all kinds of ways from people who don't know JS

It's enough to make me want to kill myself.

[DGFan]

Konfabulator doesn't come close to what Dashboard offers. I found Konfabulator to be completley useless. Either the widgets have to be on top of everything else or on the bottom. Neither one is very practical if you have much stuff going on. With Dashboard, the widgets can be hidden and then appear with a keystroke. That's infinitely more useful.


You realize that K will have this feature within, like, a week don't you? Enough people have asked for it that it's going to happen.

[iChan]

Hey, you. Yeah, the guy who decided to come to the party late so he could make an entrance. We've been there. We've done that. You missed it. We're moving on.

-hertz

woah there, calm down...

[DGFan]

His perspective is that the two do the same thing, but Dashboard does it in a different way that's simpler, more open and more flexible. And if that's the case, why should users complainer when Apple "crushes" third party developers by doing it in a simpler, better and probably faster way?

If Konfabulator gets the HTML capabilities it is possible to add (apparently they're in internal testing on that part) then K will be much more flexible. Personally, I'd much rather deal with XML and provide JS action handlers than muck around setting up CSS and JS handlers. Konfabulator's layout is much more developer friendly. But there are advantages (Flash *shudder*) to HTML and I do hope Konfabulator adds them eventually.

[DGFan]

If you don't read anything else, read the last couple of paragraphs; he explains what's so cool about Dashboard (anybody can use it--an open framework with easy-to-write applets that use nothing but existing languages), rather than the semi-closed, pay-to-use structure of Konfabulator.

Not really sure what you're talking about here. Konfabulator uses XML and Javascript. The developers documentation (which defines the XML tags and JS methods/variables available) is a free download. The only "closed" part is you have to pay for Konfabulator to use the widgets. Well, guess what? You have to pay for Dashboard too! Tiger aint free.

[dongmin]

You may have answered yoru own question.. Flipping stickies may use flash for the effect...

According to Apple:

Leave No Widget Unturned
Elegantly designed Dashboard accessories animate in cool and interesting ways using the new Core Image technology built into Tiger. To change the color or font for a sticky note, flip the note around — all Widgets controls are on the back to keep them out of sight until you need them. Configuring your Widgets is fun, too.

So the flipping (as well as the ripple effect) is done with Core Image. All widgets can be animated using Core Image.

[GRAHAMUK]

I do feel a bit sorry for the Konfabulator guys, and it wouldn't have hurt Apple to have at least talked to them before wiping out their product - shades of the old arrogant Apple coming back - I hope it's not a trend.

That said, it seems Dashboard goes beyond Konfabulator quite a bit, and neatly solves the clutter problem that I found with K. There is one issue though, and that is bugginess - I eventually dumped K. because most of the widgets that I actually found of any use (I mean, how many clocks does a person really need?) were often really buggy and would hang or crash the K. shell.

By putting the ability to craete widgets in the hands of non-programmers, I hope that it won't lead to a layer of instability which will degrade the platform as a whole. Of course the same argument applies to apps, but by the time you know enough to create an app, you should know enough to avoid the most obvious bugs.

On another note - the flipping windows are very neat, and a really excellent metaphor. I'm assuming though that it's leveraging OpenGL rather than a web technology, which in turn implies a "flip window" API in Tiger. It's unclear how you access this from a widget, though the demo clearly works! Interesting.

[rsa]

One good thing that can come out of this for the Konfabulator team is that... Windows people secretly want what Mac people have. They already have a start on a Windows version of Konfabulator. I think. I haven't read too much into it. But you know when you show your Windows friend Dashboard they'll immediately knock it and in a week have Konfabulator Windows version installed showing that they can do it to. It could be very beneficial to Konfabulator in that aspect.


At the moment, there are lots of cool widget for Windows ( similar to Konfabulator). Check out www.samurize.com


RSA

[synotic]

By putting the ability to craete widgets in the hands of non-programmers, I hope that it won't lead to a layer of instability which will degrade the platform as a whole. Of course the same argument applies to apps, but by the time you know enough to create an app, you should know enough to avoid the most obvious bugs.Highly unlikely. Most "non-programmers" will probably create the widgets in the html/js/css mode. If someone could create a problem with a widget that means that there is a problem with JS and as far as I know, there hasn't been an exploit of Safari yet. With Cocoa on the other hand, it's not in as such a controlled environement. Even then, I somehow doubt that the crash of one widget would take down Dashboard, Apple already knows how to deal with multiple processes.

[encro]

I do feel a bit sorry for the Konfabulator guys, and it wouldn't have hurt Apple to have at least talked to them before wiping out their product - shades of the old arrogant Apple coming back - I hope it's not a trend.


Read half way down this article under the heading: Not So Rosy: http://billpalmer.net/com000238.html

It's clear that the relationship between Arlo Rose/Perry Clarke & Apple has been edgy for quite a few years prior to OS X. Apple won't work with someone who has tried to deliberately do the wrong thing.

[cb911]

this is such good news!! :D now all web-designers and developers can become 'widget developers'! :D

this is going to be awesome... imagine being able to have your showreel displayed as a widget! sweet! :D

[brooklyn]

Apple should call Mac OS-X 10.4 Kon-Tiger-lator...

[Analog Kid]

Not THAT's nice!

* Widgets in Flash

* Widgets from Dreamweaver (make your own interactive reference info easily)

* HTML manuals or saved sites to refer to

* Widgets all kinds of ways from people who don't know JS
:D Ohhhh.... JavaScript...

I read this the first time and took J to mean Jack...

[rockman2023]

It's good to know that this is written on an existing technology. That really opens it up quite a bit. This will allow code ninjas like myself (a web designer) to build nearly anything. Pretty sweet.

I DEFINETLY hear you on that one.

Lets just hope Flash will run faster on our Macs by the time Tiger rolls around.

<drool>Imagine.....Flash.....Dashboard....</drool>

[Analog Kid]

(I wonder how you get the eye candy from JS? Like the flipping stickies? And I wonder where alpha control comes from? ...)
I would guess that both come from the application hosting the web-pane. Same way Safari could be written to flip itself around or go transparent, the window holding the WebKit content in Desktop can do the same.

[Analog Kid]

I DEFINETLY hear you on that one.

Lets just hope Flash will run faster on our Macs by the time Tiger rolls around.

<drool>Imagine.....Flash.....Dashboard....</drool>

Ok, I'm getting a very strong feeling that Apple better offer a Dashboard like environment for real apps... We're just going to get flooded with widgets by people who finally feel they can release their creative muse...

[Analog Kid]

Wonder if Apple will be releasing a web development suite anytime soon-- like Frontpage, Pagemill or Go Live... Sounds like it would be a good time for one.

[sdf]

I wish. :D

But what is David Hyatt's connection to Dashboard? I thought he just worked on Safari?

I think David Hyatt works on WebCore, not Safari per se.

[Natron]

Wonder if Apple will be releasing a web development suite anytime soon-- like Frontpage, Pagemill or Go Live... Sounds like it would be a good time for one.

Check out BlogStudio (http://www.littlehj.com), it's the closest thing to what I want in an Apple web app.

Now, if I could just get that iTunes for video app I've been wanting (from Apple).

[interlard]

Thanks to David's blog I don't know what to think anymore.

Visually, they are similar. But I now agree that Dashboard uses much better technology than Konfab. Apple were right not to buy it (IMHO). HTML is way easier than the XML that Konfab needs. And the memory usage of Konfabulator is just shamefull:

I have the basic weather widget open and Activity Monitor says I have 2 Konfabulator processes running, taking 7.4 MB and 9 MB of RAM. Now get this, they each use up about 145 MB of Virtual Memory EACH!!

David claims Apple's Dashboard is much more memory efficient and was inspired by the original desk accessories from 1984. We will have to wait and see if the efficiency thing is true, but enjoy this historical snippet:

They nearly left the sliding puzzle accessory out because it took up 6 KB, so Andy Hertzfeld re-wrote it in assembler to around 600 bytes. Now THAT'S what I call efficient. I don't think one of these smiles is even that small. :rolleyes:

[nagromme]

... By putting the ability to craete widgets in the hands of non-programmers, I hope that it won't lead to a layer of instability which will degrade the platform as a whole. Of course the same argument applies to apps, but by the time you know enough to create an app, you should know enough to avoid the most obvious bugs.

I'm afraid there's going to be a small wave of people thinking Dashboard power should be kept away from most people and reserved only for a "qualified elite." My counter-arguments:

* If amateurs are making widgets, that doesn't mean you'll be forced to download and install them, any more than you are forced to use buggy shareware.

* Many "non-programmers" will make useful widgets for their OWN needs, not for the larger community. Very useful!

* This is all much like AppleScript--which assuredly can do some VERY powerful things in the wrong hands, as can other programming environments. Yet AppleScript is a wonderful tool for non-programmers. Automator even more so. Dashboard won't be a bad thing anymore than those are.

* Apple can control what Dashboard is allowed to do easily. If it's easy to accidentally make a widget that does harm--destabilizing the whole system!--I expect Apple will address that. Again, AppleScript hasn't hurt the platform.

* If these are just web pages in essence, then those same people could just make web pages instead :D This is just displaying them differently. Doesn't sound like such a dire addition to me.

In short... widgets being easy to make is a GOOD THING. Meanwhile, the most sophisticated ones will still come from "programmers."


:D Ohhhh.... JavaScript...
I read this the first time and took J to mean Jack...

Dangerous things, acronyms :D

[socbyset]

I think David Hyatt works on WebCore, not Safari per se.

If you read his blog it seems pretty clear that he is the lead for Safari as well as WebCore..

[dangil]

this is SO 1998 that my Spice Girls CDs are poping right out of their CD cases. poltergeist style !

next : channels !

[DeadEye686]

Dave Hyatt's gettin' in on the action, too :p

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/index.html

[fabsgwu]

as well as konfabulator itself. they can't compete with apple and their CoreGraphics magic.

Uh, actually Arlo will be able to integrate CoreGraphics into Konfab, its good for everyone, hence they're giving the SDK to developers.

Besides, there's still the niche for people who want their widgets around all the time: there's over 600 already developed for Konfab as we speak, nothing to sneeze at.

[dmarkman]

David Hyatt updates his blog (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2004_06.html#005876) to provide some clarification on Apple's upcoming Dashboard Widgets.

indeed

actually all dashboard "things" are gadgets they have extensions .gadget
not widget

every gadget has inside html file which you can open with safari
and you'll see exactly the same image and functionality as from F12

[coolfactor]

All we knew before was JavaScript and that's still true--but now we know there are OTHER methods too. No new limits have been introduced by this news.

(I wonder how you get the eye candy from JS? Like the flipping stickies? And I wonder where alpha control comes from? I hope Flash widgets can be rendered with no bounding box!)


He brings up a good point, actually. What "domain" does a Widget run in? What he is missing, I think, is that Cocoa is available to Widgets, so you have [full] access to the system through it. You don't need to run PHP scripts for command line execution. I can't wait for Tiger! Bring it on baby!

This is definitely the end of the browser and the beginning of tight desktop integration. Haha, I just realized that! Here Microsoft is going on about Web Services as one of the big features of Longhorn, and Apple is creating web integration into the OS "for the rest of us". Way to go Apple!

[nagromme]

(Speaking of the end of the browser... let's keep Safari and lose Sherlock! Not because Sherlock isn't good--I love the movie and yellow/white pages channels for instance. But just put the Sherlock channels into Safari--including letting Sherlock search-plugins extend the Google bar to other sites.)

[Tulse]

I'm curious as to what kind of file-system protection there will be from potentially malicious Dashboard gadgets. One of the major downsides of Konfabulator (arising because of its excellent versatility) is that a widget can potentially do very nasty things -- because it has access to all Applescript and command-line commands, a widget could easily do things like wipe your user directory. Because of this Rose and Perry vet the code of every single widget that gets posted in the Konfabulator Widget Gallery. That's an OK system for a small operation like Konfabulator, but just won't work when this functionality is actually baked into the OS.

So I wonder if Dashboard will have the same kind of system-level access that Konfabulator does (which lets K do a lot of really useful things), and if so, if there will be some sort of built-in protection against various forms of nastiness.

[ITR 81]

I'm curious as to what kind of file-system protection there will be from potentially malicious Dashboard gadgets. One of the major downsides of Konfabulator (arising because of its excellent versatility) is that a widget can potentially do very nasty things -- because it has access to all Applescript and command-line commands, a widget could easily do things like wipe your user directory. Because of this Rose and Perry vet the code of every single widget that gets posted in the Konfabulator Widget Gallery. That's an OK system for a small operation like Konfabulator, but just won't work when this functionality is actually baked into the OS.

So I wonder if Dashboard will have the same kind of system-level access that Konfabulator does (which lets K do a lot of really useful things), and if so, if there will be some sort of built-in protection against various forms of nastiness.

I wouldn't think Apple would allow root access...given the nature of the beast.

[sjk]

Besides, there's still the niche for people who want their widgets around all the time: there's over 600 already developed for Konfab as we speak, nothing to sneeze at.'Tho many might qualify as crapware; see John Gruber's Broken Windows (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows) article (I'd like to believe his closing comment there (which would be censored if quoted here) is true most of the time :)).

nagromme, Re: ditching Sherlock. That topic has been kicked around a lot, maybe heaviest most recently (IIRC) around the time of the Sherlock 3 vs. Watson brouhaha. Some people are strongly opposed to the browser being a "universal UI". And for some people, at least for certain applications (e.g. webmail), it doesn't matter. Brings to mind another of John's recent Daring Fireball articles, The Location Field Is the New Command Line (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/location_field).

[thatwendigo]

If Konfabulator gets the HTML capabilities it is possible to add (apparently they're in internal testing on that part) then K will be much more flexible.

Uh, right...

Konfabulator: JavaScript with its own runtime and memory space, XML, and possibly HTML, with Quartz integration.

Dashboard: WebCore, JavaScript using the native OS X runtime, HTML and CSS, Cocoa (and thus regular application programming), Expose, and Core technologies. The interface can touch anything that WebCore can use - Flash, Director, Quicktime, and anything else Safari can render.

Who's more flexible?

Personally, I'd much rather deal with XML and provide JS action handlers than muck around setting up CSS and JS handlers. Konfabulator's layout is much more developer friendly. But there are advantages (Flash *shudder*) to HTML and I do hope Konfabulator adds them eventually.

This isn't about what you want, it's about making the platform more appealing to people of all kinds of skill levels. At least three of the techonologies demoed at WWDC this yeare were about making things easier on hobbyist programmers, just as much as the professionals. Which ones? Dashboard's environment, Core Image and Video, and Automator are all in this vein, for a start, and that's just what Steve was actively showing us.

[ErikGrim]

So, you want to try out the gadgets? Yup, they truly are web pages:

Address Book (http://www.erikveland.com/gadgets/adressbook/AddressBook.html)
Calculator (http://www.erikveland.com/gadgets/calculator/Calculator.html)
iTunes (http://www.erikveland.com/gadgets/itunes/iTunes.html)
Stickies (http://www.erikveland.com/gadgets/stickies/Stickies.html)
Tile Game (http://www.erikveland.com/gadgets/tilegame/TileGame.html)
World Clock (http://www.erikveland.com/gadgets/worldclock/WorldClock.html)

To be fair, even when run locally in Safari, all the gadgets that interfere with the system info, most importantly Adress Book is non-functional. You can't even change the iTunes-track :) So there's clearly more to gadgets than just HTML+JavaScript. (I presume they use Cocoa-hooks only when run in a local Dashboard-enviroment).

But hey, have fun with the calculator and the tile game. Ripple-effect not included :D

(More info on my weblog (http://www.erikveland.com/))

[killmoms]

Flash, eh? I wonder if someone can write a script that retrieves the latest Strong Bad e-mail from Homestar Runner. Now THAT would be a fantastically useful widget. Instant humor!

And iChan, can you please learn to multi-quote? Safari has tabs for a reason. Your double, triple, and sometimes quadruple posts are very annoying. Concatenate, man!

--Cless

[iMeowbot]

I'm curious as to what kind of file-system protection there will be from potentially malicious Dashboard gadgets.

Really, what does it need, other than the protection already built into the operating system? Applescript and the shell can already do these things. There really isn't any new functionality being added, just a new interface to things people can already get at and (mis)use today.

You may be worrying in particular about widget/gadget/whatevers written by people you don't know, but this is nothing new. All the programs written in C, Applescript, BASIC or whatever sitting out on macupdate and versiontracker could potentially be buggy or evil too, and indeed very many of them are terrible, written by people who haven't a clue what they're doing. We already have ways to deal with that stuff, it will apply as well to dashboard thingies.

[DGFan]

Uh, right...

Konfabulator: JavaScript with its own runtime and memory space, XML, and possibly HTML, with Quartz integration.

Dashboard: WebCore, JavaScript using the native OS X runtime, HTML and CSS, Cocoa (and thus regular application programming), Expose, and Core technologies. The interface can touch anything that WebCore can use - Flash, Director, Quicktime, and anything else Safari can render.

Who's more flexible?


I haven't seen any direct information about Cocoa. Did the headline of this thread say "In other words, each widget is just a web page?" I am not aware of a way to access Cocoa from something that is "just a web page."

Expose? Do you know something I don't? The widgets appear on their own screen. Ooooh. Konfabulator does this now (Konspose) and will soon have the ability for widgets to operate exactly like Dashboard - where they don't appear except when running Konspose. So what exactly was your point in bringing up Expose?

As far as HTML and Webkit, we don't really know if Konfabulator will be able to display any and all web pages. Given the fact that Webkit exists, I don't see why not. Sure, Konfabulator doesn't have it now. But then Dashboard hasn't been released yet, has it?

Core technologies? I haven't seen the details yet, but what makes you think that Konfabulator won't be able to use CoreImage? It's supposed to be usable anywhere, right?

That pretty much covers everything on your list. Yep, IF (big if) Konfabulator gets Webkit support (including CSS, Flash, Quicktime, and anything Webcore can render) it will be far more flexible than Dashboard, as it has been described currently.


This isn't about what you want, it's about making the platform more appealing to people of all kinds of skill levels. At least three of the techonologies demoed at WWDC this yeare were about making things easier on hobbyist programmers, just as much as the professionals. Which ones? Dashboard's environment, Core Image and Video, and Automator are all in this vein, for a start, and that's just what Steve was actively showing us.

Core Image and Video is for hobbyists, huh? I guess we'll wait and see on that.

And if you had spent plenty of time on the Konfabulator bulletin boards you'd see that there are plenty of hobbyists making widgets. In fact, that's pretty much the complaint of many - a lot of widgets aren't made by "Pros."

edit: s/Webcore/Webkit/g

[CmdrLaForge]

Wow - that is really great and blows Konfab away.

[Surreal]

alright... this is becoming a comical paradox.

so, initially, camp K took the position that Apple were punks for 'ripping off' konfab and making dashboard. the grounds for this were that A) apple stole the idea and B) apple did it better and thereby destroyed arlo's hopes and dreams.

then david went and said that the widget/gadgets are web pages. this made people say "oooooh" and then camp Apple said "see, dashboard is simply better."

throughout this argument was the debate over whether Desktop assistants or konfab inspired dashboard.

now...perhaps the most amusing aspect of A vs K is the fact that camp K seems to be leaning harder on the notion that Konfab will be better.

now, if konfab will be better;
A) apple did not crush arlo's hopes and dreams.
B) Dashboard was different enough to force Konfab to change
C) competition might be worthwhile


how about everyone just stop and consider, how long does it take to write something like dashboard? i dont know when konfab came out.

i don't particularly care about any of this. i will not buy konfab, but i will buy tiger. i dont like too many small house apps.

some of what i have said may offend you
some of what i have said may not apply to you,
but no matter what, you must remember one thing that i have said
and that is that Jerk chicken is better.

[tiktokfx]

Finally, a valid application for use of the marquee tag!

[thatwendigo]

I haven't seen any direct information about Cocoa. Did the headline of this thread say "In other words, each widget is just a web page?" I am not aware of a way to access Cocoa from something that is "just a web page."

RTFA: (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator)
Plus, Dashboard gadgets are further extensible using Cocoa. You don’t need to use Cocoa — fully functional gadgets can be made using nothing more than HTML, CSS, and JavaScript — but the option to use Cocoa is there for doing things JavaScript alone can’t do.

Expose? Do you know something I don't? The widgets appear on their own screen. Ooooh. Konfabulator does this now (Konspose) and will soon have the ability for widgets to operate exactly like Dashboard - where they don't appear except when running Konspose. So what exactly was your point in bringing up Expose?

My point is that Dashboard uses system hooks in Expose for its hide/show features, rather than adding a separate layer of runtime, memory usage, and outside APIs. It's cleaner, neater, and doesn't add untried and - as far as I've read - hideously buggy and memory-hole ridden code.

As far as HTML and Webkit, we don't really know if Konfabulator will be able to display any and all web pages. Given the fact that Webkit exists, I don't see why not. Sure, Konfabulator doesn't have it now. But then Dashboard hasn't been released yet, has it?

So... Konfabulator would be copying Dashboard, then, in a much more serious way than Apple sort-of-kind-of copied the look of a program that a former Apple Human Interface designer deliberately made to ape their style? Okay then.

Core technologies? I haven't seen the details yet, but what makes you think that Konfabulator won't be able to use CoreImage? It's supposed to be usable anywhere, right?

Dashboard has it as things stand. Konfabulator would be copying Dashboard, which is what Arlo accuses Apple of doing. Oops.

That pretty much covers everything on your list. Yep, IF (big if) Konfabulator gets Webkit support (including CSS, Flash, Quicktime, and anything Webcore can render) it will be far more flexible than Dashboard, as it has been described currently.

I'd like to see even a remote justification for this claim, rather than a repeated assertion that it's true. All that Konfabulator is, as far as "flexibility" goes, is an outside API that adds complexity, not anything all that groundbreaking.

Core Image and Video is for hobbyists, huh? I guess we'll wait and see on that.

It's a hell of a lot more friendly to hobbyists than having to write your own image handlers all the time, that's for certain. It's a core-level, high speed graphical code that interfaces with Apple's existing technology and which provides more options for anyone writing OS X aaplications. That means that hobbyists have more available to them than they did before. Konfabulator has a document that lists the syntaxes. Ooooh.... Yeah, that's an advantage. :rolleyes:

And if you had spent plenty of time on the Konfabulator bulletin boards you'd see that there are plenty of hobbyists making widgets. In fact, that's pretty much the complaint of many - a lot of widgets aren't made by "Pros."

I tried Konfabulator and I wasn't impressed enough to want to pay for it, so there's no reason to want to hang out on their boards. Contrary to my experience with K, it looks like Dashboard might very well be something I would use.

[DGFan]

RTFA: (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator)


I think it's pretty obnoxious and rude to suggest I RTFA when the article is
1) not linked in this discussion
2) not from Apple

Furthermore, I have seen other people reprimanded for "bypassing the profanity filter". Are acronyms allowed? So if I say FY (or is that FU) it's ok?

Now, to respond to your comments (in aggregate).

Yes, one could say that Konfabulator copied from Apple. Whoop-dee-do. I wasn't one of the "Apple stoles from ussss" crybabies.

I don't know anything about buggy or hole-ridden code in K. K runs on my system without using too much memory. Maybe I', just using the wrong widgets.

It doesn't really matter what Dashboard "has now" because Dashboard isn't a released product. Konfabulator may have features also in beta that they simply haven't released. Released products are all that count.

An API doesn't have to be groundbreaking to be adding flexibility. If A = a + b + c and B = a + b + c + d then B has more. It's simple, really.

I am very happy for you that you want to use Dashboard. And maybe when Dashboard and future versions of Konfabulator are actually released a more intelligent conversation can be had. But right now any pronouncements of "X is better" or "Y is more flebxible" are just pissing in the wind. I hope you enjoy being wet....

[Rower_CPU]

The article was posted in post #35 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=911542&postcount=35) of this thread, but I can see how the confusion could start between Hyatt's article and the daring Fireball one.

As for acronyms, they have yet to be an issue on this forum, as far as I've seen, and in this case it is not a personal attack. Your examples, however, would be.

Play nice, folks. :)

[windowsblowsass]

crazy apple rumors has posted on how this will finally be settled

Jobs To Fight Rose After WWDC.

According to numerous paper notes being passed in sessions at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference, CEO Steve Jobs will fight Konfabulator co-creator Arlo Rose near the swings outside the Moscone Center after the conference concludes.


Jobs and Rose's disagreement is the result of what many feel is the appropriation of Konfabulator's functionality in Tiger's Dashboard.

then added
Rose is also rumored to believe that Jobs smells and he looks funny and he dresses like a dork and is a stupid four-eyes. Jobs, on the other hand, thinks Rose is a loser and the only reason he is whining is that he is a loser who doesn't know how not to be a loser because he's such a loser.

[thatwendigo]

I think it's pretty obnoxious and rude to suggest I RTFA when the article is
1) not linked in this discussion
2) not from Apple

I think it's pretty obnoxious and rude to make allegations about software without having gone through the developer notes, or at least reading an article written by someone who has. The Daring Fireball writeup is excellent because it points out both the historical and technological aspects of this particular disagreement. In both senses, Apple is more than justified in its actions and Rose has basically no ground to stand on, especially in terms of mimicing previous efforts.

To summarize:
Konfabulator is only innovative in its application of Quartz implentation.
Rose worked for Apple's interface group, which explains why his programs look so much like something that would come out of Cupertino.
Dashboard is based in Apple's system technology, while Konfabulator is based on external APIs that are designed for portability.
Arlo Rose was competing on the basis of a single idea that was based on a perceived hole in the OS, and Apple has now done it better, thus plugging the hole. It's his own lack of foresight and diversification that did him in.

I don't know anything about buggy or hole-ridden code in K. K runs on my system without using too much memory. Maybe I', just using the wrong widgets.

Once again, RTFA: (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator)
Konfabulator is not a lightweight or small-footprint environment — every Konfabulator widget runs as a separate process, with its own runtime environment in memory. Most Konfabulator widgets use more memory than typical full-blown Mac OS X applications. Not just Konfabulator as a whole — but each widget. Install it, fire up Process Viewer, and see for yourself. (Ironically, the Konfabulator “CPU Portal” widget seems to leak memory.)

An API doesn't have to be groundbreaking to be adding flexibility. If A = a + b + c and B = a + b + c + d then B has more. It's simple, really.

Konfabulator contains its own self-contained JavaScript runtime engine, based on SpiderMonkey, the open source JavaScript engine from the Mozilla Project. Konfabulator UI layouts are specified in a custom XML format. I.e.:

Konfabulator = (Custom XML format) + (Custom JavaScript engine)

...

Adding a new platform layer to the system is a serious decision and commitment. If you’re still willing to argue that Apple should have bought Konfabulator as the basis for Dashboard, you’re implicitly arguing that Apple should be more concerned about being nice to third-party developers than they are about the quality of the engineering undergirding their platform.

I am very happy for you that you want to use Dashboard. And maybe when Dashboard and future versions of Konfabulator are actually released a more intelligent conversation can be had. But right now any pronouncements of "X is better" or "Y is more flebxible" are just pissing in the wind. I hope you enjoy being wet....

Who's trolling now? :rolleyes:

I'm having a perfectly intelligible conversation about the existing framework and APIs for Dashboard, which Apple apperently believes in enough that they gave out two prizes for the best Gadget programmed at WWDC: a PowerBook 15" and a 40GB iPod.

[rt_brained]

you are right, but i don't think anyone will argue that konposé is hideous.

with it's layer of parchment-y textured background and cog logo stamped in the middle.
It's not hideous. I just don't need to bring widgets to the forefront of my desktop as much as I need them to hide them off-screen and make them reappear as needed. If I could do that, I'd keep more widgets open and available for reference, but hidden.

[DGFan]

I think it's pretty obnoxious and rude to make allegations about software without having gone through the developer notes, or at least reading an article written by someone who has. The Daring Fireball writeup is excellent because it points out both the historical and technological aspects of this particular disagreement. In both senses, Apple is more than justified in its actions and Rose has basically no ground to stand on, especially in terms of mimicing previous efforts.

To summarize:
Konfabulator is only innovative in its application of Quartz implentation.
Rose worked for Apple's interface group, which explains why his programs look so much like something that would come out of Cupertino.
Dashboard is based in Apple's system technology, while Konfabulator is based on external APIs that are designed for portability.
Arlo Rose was competing on the basis of a single idea that was based on a perceived hole in the OS, and Apple has now done it better, thus plugging the hole. It's his own lack of foresight and diversification that did him in.


We are discussing which app is more flexible. You seem to have me confused with someone else with whom you may have been discussing which product is more innovative.


Once again, RTFA: (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator)
Konfabulator is not a lightweight or small-footprint environment — every Konfabulator widget runs as a separate process, with its own runtime environment in memory. Most Konfabulator widgets use more memory than typical full-blown Mac OS X applications. Not just Konfabulator as a whole — but each widget. Install it, fire up Process Viewer, and see for yourself. (Ironically, the Konfabulator “CPU Portal” widget seems to leak memory.)



First, only jerks say "RTFA".

And again, you seem to have me confused with someone else. Or perhaps you're trying to argue that Dashboard is more flexible because it has a smaller footprint? That's like arguing that "my car can carry more people because it has better fuel mileage."

Um. Okay


Konfabulator contains its own self-contained JavaScript runtime engine, based on SpiderMonkey, the open source JavaScript engine from the Mozilla Project. Konfabulator UI layouts are specified in a custom XML format. I.e.:

Konfabulator = (Custom XML format) + (Custom JavaScript engine)

...

Adding a new platform layer to the system is a serious decision and commitment. If you’re still willing to argue that Apple should have bought Konfabulator as the basis for Dashboard, you’re implicitly arguing that Apple should be more concerned about being nice to third-party developers than they are about the quality of the engineering undergirding their platform.


Where did I ever argue Apple should have bought Konfabulator? Are you for real?


Who's trolling now? :rolleyes:

I'm having a perfectly intelligible conversation about the existing framework and APIs for Dashboard, which Apple apperently believes in enough that they gave out two prizes for the best Gadget programmed at WWDC: a PowerBook 15" and a 40GB iPod.

Who's trolling? Let's see, you made up a bunch of arguments that I never even vaguely mentioned and "tah-dah" you managed to refute them. What a pathetic straw man you created.

More proof that high post count != intelligence

[gwangung]

We are discussing which app is more flexible.

Then it would help to read up on at least one of the apps, hm? Or, at least the rest of the thread (where a very informative article was, indeed, referenced).

Sorry, but I can see how thatwendigo thought it was appropriate to say RTFA. Of course, I have a better right, since I was the one to reference the artlcle in question....and you replied to it.

[thatwendigo]

Watch those pedals turn backwards!

We are discussing which app is more flexible. You seem to have me confused with someone else with whom you may have been discussing which product is more innovative.

Actually, I was responding to your post that said it was rude and obnoxious to suggest that you ought to read an informative article that was linked to earlier in the thread, which just so happens to demolish every single one of your arguments. As such, it's entirely appropriate for me to have pointed you at it and summarized the basics of the situation.

I'm posting at you, but you're far from the limit of the audience.

And again, you seem to have me confused with someone else. Or perhaps you're trying to argue that Dashboard is more flexible because it has a smaller footprint? That's like arguing that "my car can carry more people because it has better fuel mileage."

For someone who likes to accuse others of straw men, you manage to - rather impressively - completely miss every point I made. The entire function of that section I quoted was to educate you on the topic of memory management within Konfabulator, since you said that you didn't know much about it. The article I told you to read explained how it handled memory, and how it's inferior to the way that Dashboard does, because it hogs far more resources.

This is entirely germane.

Where did I ever argue Apple should have bought Konfabulator? Are you for real?

An API doesn't have to be groundbreaking to be adding flexibility. If A = a + b + c and B = a + b + c + d then B has more. It's simple, really.

Konfabulator contains its own self-contained JavaScript runtime engine, based on SpiderMonkey, the open source JavaScript engine from the Mozilla Project. Konfabulator UI layouts are specified in a custom XML format. I.e.:

Konfabulator = (Custom XML format) + (Custom JavaScript engine)

...

Adding a new platform layer to the system is a serious decision and commitment. If you’re still willing to argue that Apple should have bought Konfabulator as the basis for Dashboard, you’re implicitly arguing that Apple should be more concerned about being nice to third-party developers than they are about the quality of the engineering undergirding their platform.

So that your memory is refreshed, I took the whole section to give context.

My point was that Konfabulator does not add any functionality worth talking about, because it really doesn't add much, and Dashboard beats the hell out of it on the few things it did bring with it. On top of that, as I was pointing out, a huge part of not buying the rights to Konfabulator (which is a tangential point) is that the technology is poorly implemented and not at all beneficial to the OS. Dashboard, on the other hand, ties into the existing technologies and adds more, while giving a genuine flexibility that comes from a huge range of options that don't require outside APIs that run their own memory space for each applet.

Who's trolling? Let's see, you made up a bunch of arguments that I never even vaguely mentioned and "tah-dah" you managed to refute them. What a pathetic straw man you created.

Pot, meet ketttle. (http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.goenglish.com/ThePotCallingTheKettleBlack.asp&h=179&w=300&sz=25&tbnid=U8qkAIV2lVcJ:&tbnh=66&tbnw=110&start=34&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpot%2Bkettle%2Bblack%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN)

[DGFan]

Actually, I was responding to your post that said it was rude and obnoxious to suggest that you ought to read an informative article that was linked to earlier in the thread, which just so happens to demolish every single one of your arguments. As such, it's entirely appropriate for me to have pointed you at it and summarized the basics of the situation.


I had already read the article. And it really doesn't touch on the *only* argument I have made which is that Konfabulator has what I consider to be a useful additional method of providing functionality to widgets which Dashboard does not appear to have. Furthermore, it is likely that Konfabulator will be adding functionality similar to that of Dashboards in the future rendering, IMO, K more flexible. Not better for most people to code for, not more efficient in system resources, just more flexible. The arguments that the article demolishes were arguments of your making, not mine.

It's not rude and obnoxious to suggest that I read an article which you believe may have ideas contrary to my opinion. It is rude and obnoxious to tell me to Read The ********** Article.


My point was that Konfabulator does not add any functionality worth talking about, because it really doesn't add much, and Dashboard beats the hell out of it on the few things it did bring with it. On top of that, as I was pointing out, a huge part of not buying the rights to Konfabulator (which is a tangential point) is that the technology is poorly implemented and not at all beneficial to the OS. Dashboard, on the other hand, ties into the existing technologies and adds more, while giving a genuine flexibility that comes from a huge range of options that don't require outside APIs that run their own memory space for each applet.


Whether Konfabulator adds much is open to opinion. Ok, so you don't value the current way K widgets are described. That doesn't mean it isn't there.

I think (after having read the article and used my own brain) that it is likely that Apple didn't try to buy Konfabulator because:
1. when Apple likely started work on Dashboard, Konfabulator was also in its infancy
2. Apple wanted to take a different direction technically making the widgets simply web pages (with support allowed for other technologies ie Core) - this is supported by the article you linked and makes it perfectly sensible that they didn't even bother to contact Arlo & Company

[GrannySmith_G5]

I don't have time to search through the countless forums here, so if this has been covered numerous times, I apologize. What I don't get is what this means exactly (core image) for computers with graphics cards below the requirements. I have an imac 800 and an ibook g4, both of which don't meet the requirements. Does this mean that the dashboard widgets for instance will not have the flip effect on my machines? Am I going to be missing out on a lot of the key features/future potential software releases for Tiger? (not trying to imply that flipping widgets is in itself a key feature).

[ErikGrim]

I don't have time to search through the countless forums here, so if this has been covered numerous times, I apologize. What I don't get is what this means exactly (core image) for computers with graphics cards below the requirements. I have an imac 800 and an ibook g4, both of which don't meet the requirements. Does this mean that the dashboard widgets for instance will not have the flip effect on my machines? Am I going to be missing out on a lot of the key features/future potential software releases for Tiger? (not trying to imply that flipping widgets is in itself a key feature).The flip effect and the geniesque effects work. The 3d ripple does not.

[Mr. Anderson]

Its quite sad when people can't play nice in news threads. Next time, take the arguments outside the thread and maybe read the rules about personal attacks and circumventing the profanity filter.

D