PDA

View Full Version : For the Organic Chem-heads out there...




themadchemist
Jun 30, 2004, 02:50 PM
I've got a burning orgo question for which I can't seem to find the answer. Consider the addition of a hydrogen halide to an alkyne.

The addition of one equivalent merely involves the pi electrons of the triple bond attacking the hydrogen in H-X, thereby displacing the halide. Thus, one forms a vinyl cation on the more substituted carbon (Markovnikov addition). X- then adds to the carbocation, giving both E and Z isomers.

So now you have an alkene with a halogen substituent on one of the double-bond carbons.

When you have an alkyne whose triple-bond carbons are equally substituted, you get a mixture of products.

This is all pretty simple. The problem comes when you add another equivalent of H-X.

So, let's say you started with but-2-yne, a symmetrical alkyne.

Addition of, say, hydrobromic acid (HBr) yields 2-bromo-but-2-ene:

H3CBrC=CHCH3

When you add another equivalent of HBr, experiments demonstrate that one obtains only the geminal dihalide:

H3CBr2C-CH2CH3

In other words, both bromides add to the same carbon. This suggests that the carbocation in the second addition formed on the carbon that already has the bromine. The bromine is electron-withdrawing and it should, therefore, destabilize the carbocation. If the alkyne were unsymmetrical, then maybe the argument could be made that the electron-donating effect of an additional alkyl group would outweigh the electron-withdrawing effect of the bromine, although I am even skeptical of this. However, in the case of the symmetrical alkyne, carbocation formation on the non-halogenated carbon would still provide the electron-donating benefits of an alkyl while avoiding the electron-withdrawing effect of the halogen.

Why, then, does the geminal dihalide form? I'd really appreciate any insight anyone could provide.



eaalthof@hotmai
Jun 30, 2004, 04:32 PM
However, the true answer lies with Br's lone pairs and a little bit with Br's size. The lone pairs stabilize the carbocation by donating electron density to it (imagine it as a kind of "resonance" the term for this is actually hyperconjugation [resonance is actually a subunit of hyperconjugation]). This stabilization greatly decreases the energy of the carbocation next to the bromine such that the second Br- attack creates the (geminal) 2,2 disubstituted product. This stabilization is great enough that if you start with 1-Bromo-1-butene and use HBr, the 1,1-dibromobutane product.

themadchemist
Jun 30, 2004, 09:12 PM
However, the true answer lies with Br's lone pairs and a little bit with Br's size. The lone pairs stabilize the carbocation by donating electron density to it (imagine it as a kind of "resonance" the term for this is actually hyperconjugation [resonance is actually a subunit of hyperconjugation]). This stabilization greatly decreases the energy of the carbocation next to the bromine such that the second Br- attack creates the (geminal) 2,2 disubstituted product. This stabilization is great enough that if you start with 1-Bromo-1-butene and use HBr, the 1,1-dibromobutane product.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. I didn't think about bromine's high polarizability. Moreover, I suppose that a carbocation's electrophilicity would be far greater than that of any halogen covalently bonded to form an octet. Then, the lone pairs would prove particularly useful in stabilizing the carbocation.

I imagine this effect would be much weaker with, say fluorine, whose atomic radius is small and polarizability is low. Then, would you see a mixture of products or would the electrophilicity of the carbocation still exceed that of the highly electronegative fluorine sufficiently to draw some electron density toward it despite fluorine's low polarizability?

edit: Oh, and I'm glad that my query encouraged you to join and post...Or, so it seems.

RandomDeadHead
Jul 1, 2004, 02:33 AM
Was I the only person who thought this thread was about something totally different? :confused:

themadchemist
Jul 1, 2004, 12:26 PM
Was I the only person who thought this thread was about something totally different? :confused:

what did you think? I can't find any sexual double entendre in the thread title, which is usually what causes confusion.

G5orbust
Jul 1, 2004, 12:31 PM
what did you think? I can't find any sexual double entendre in the thread title, which is usually what causes confusion.

Im thinking he saw a drug connotation but I could be wrong...

themadchemist
Jul 1, 2004, 12:38 PM
Im thinking he saw a drug connotation but I could be wrong...

Hmm, I SUPPOSE. So as not to disappoint, I could post the synthetic pathway (though not the lab instructions, since I don't have them) to synthesize meth amphetamine from common laboratory ingredients. ;)

What?! It was a problem in my textbook!

G5orbust
Jul 1, 2004, 08:07 PM
Hmm, I SUPPOSE. So as not to disappoint, I could post the synthetic pathway (though not the lab instructions, since I don't have them) to synthesize meth amphetamine from common laboratory ingredients. ;)

What?! It was a problem in my textbook!


I think that qualifies for "subliminal messenging in literature"

themadchemist
Jul 1, 2004, 10:07 PM
I think that qualifies for "subliminal messenging in literature"

Yeah...But whoever said textbooks couldn't be practical!

If we asked for real world problems, we got 'em.

MongoTheGeek
Jul 2, 2004, 07:41 AM
Yeah...But whoever said textbooks couldn't be practical!

If we asked for real world problems, we got 'em.

One of my books in college described to how to manufacture RDX. It also had formulas to determine the k of a spring without measuring it.

Mark's Standard Handbook.