Boycott Universal

[MacRumors]

Danny Ricci (mailto:danny@dricci.com) wrote in telling us,

"It's final, Universal is going to release CDs that can only be played on some newer stereo systems and Windows-based PCs. There is no support for Macs, DVD Players, and some CD players. Microsoft must have paid them big bucks for this, (although Windows users won't be able to rip eather, just play). See the SiliconValley.com article (http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/cd121701.htm). Time for Apple users to unite and lead a boycott, remember, as always, We Shall Provail."

Boycott indeed. There is no way that any of us here at Macrumors will ever purchase Universal CD's again unless this protection is removed. The notion...buying a CD and not immediately importing it into iTunes as MP3's--lunacy. We certainly hope that all the Mac faithful out there (or PS2 faithful, or...) will follow suit.

[Ensign Paris]

If they don't work on my new marantz cd player I will be really really mad!

Guy

[ormerlin]

I understand where Universal is coming from, but I don't believe this is the correct approach. First of all, what about everybody who has older home electronics? I have some very nice home theater equipment, but it is around 5 years old. Does this mean these CDs are not going to work?

I have a decent sized audio CD collection (around 600) and it is very nice to have all the songs I own on my PowerBook hard drive. When travelling, I cannot lug around hundreds of CDs. I admit I download music, but for evaluation. I want to hear music before I run out and buy the CD. If I don't buy the CD, I don't keep it on my hard drive. If I buy it, I will end up encoding the music myself. Now, Universal is saying Windows users can listen to the CDs, but not rip them? I am sure somebody will crack this very quickly. There is always going to be somebody that can get around the copy protection. The part that really bugs me is that as a Mac user, we are not even allowed to listen to the CD. This is obviously because Universal doesn't want to go to the trouble of making it work for us Mac users.

I just hope this causes a huge problem for Universal, so others don't follow suit.

[AlphaTech]

If they want to use the 'protection' then it better not be in the US. Since I will not buy any of Universal's music cd's if it has that nasty item in it.

[Xapplimatic]

Just why would a CD not play on "older" CD equipment? Unless it was say, an MP3-CD... but then if it was an MP3-CD, then it would play on any computer.. I don't see how such a thing is possible that it would play on Windows and not on Mac.. there must be a screwup in the info there somewhere..

I for one will not buy any such thing.. I refuse to pay for something that I can't use any way I please.. Sounds like another Divx-style sales disaster is on the way for Universal.. When will they ever learn?

[eyelikeart]

I can see it now. Millions of people buying new CD's, so excited to hear the music they decide to rip open the case and listen to it on their way home from the music store. Only to find the CD won't even read on their car stereo. A bit perplexed, they decide to wait till they get home to their home stereo, and it won't play on that either. Frustrated, they bring the CD which they think is defective back to the store, and get another. Then they go through the process all over again.

What I don't understand is how making CD's unreadable by Macintosh computers can help the recording industry? If it's simply because Microsoft is still trying to monopolize the tech industry, then I'm sure we'll see more battling in the federal courts.

The way I see it, the advent of mp3 is something that was inevitable. Technology is always going to advance, and the recording industry was just holding their breath, hoping nothing would come about. It's their own damned fault for making music so expensive that we've come to this.

As for making the discs copy-proof, isn't paying $18.99 for a CD the same thing as buying the rights listen and do what u want with the recording, as long as u do not capitalize on it to make money. I know I'm probably off on some of these points, but this is ridiculous!

[Matthé]

morons! how long do you think it will take hack and make it playable on a mac?
the really sad part is: copying won't stop but people will be EXTREMELY pissed if it forces them to buy new hifi systems
marketing chumps are idiots
hahaha

[nubneck]

After reading that article, it looks like schemes like this have failed in the past due to consumers backlash.

I think of it like this: They are adding this security to prevent people from ripping CDs. As a result, anyone who wants to do such things with their music just won't buy the CD! Considering the fact that most people I know immediately make a backup copy or import to their mp3 collection upon buying a new CD, I know none of them will support this idea.

In addition, by making the CD only able to play on a limited number of devices (the mentioned that even some CD players wouldn't be able to play it!), I really doubt that this plan will take-off.

Personally, it wouldn't even be the end of my world if I couldn't share music online (although I love to). It's more the idea that when you buy protected music, you don't really have the ability to use it the way you want, and in many ways, it doesn't feel like you "own" it at all.

The article cites the fact that DVDs and videogames are copy protected and that's working fine, but as I see it, music is just different. Although it can be stored on the same media, the very nature of "owning" music is very different than the idea of "owning" a movie or video game; Consumers make use of music in different ways. While DVDs and video games can for the most part remain in your living room, music is often enjoyed in a variety of places - in your car, on your mp3 player, on mixed cds, at work, etc...When you buy a CD, you are not only paying for the music - you are paying for the freedom to enjoy it however you choose. As a result, I think the copy protection suggested really takes a lot of the value out of the product you are paying for.

[AlphaTech]

And how many people are going to buy a new system for one cd?? None of the smart ones. If there is a hack that comes about, it will be used by the people that want to make tons of copies.

I just want to use my existing equipment, which plays everything I have quite nicely at this time.

[MrCLRiggs]

Y'know, it's bad enough that there are so many e-CD's I can't use on my Mac, but now I can't even use a REGULAR CD?!? Yeah, to call it B.S. is to put it mildly. Oh well, there's 25 million potential customers Universal just lost...

And by the way, if a site admin's reading this, I know this is kinda nitpicky - but let's correct the spelling of 'Provail.' It's prEvail, with an 'e'. If we're going to look strong in this fight, we can at least spell things correctly. That's just embarassing...

[evildead]

I am mad, very Mad.

I will now have to Hack my legal music so I can burn it to CD-R just so I can play it on my DVD player, Mac and maybe on my in-dash CD in the car. This is encuraging us to hack and crack it all!! Those that want to use their property the way they want will start it, then onece the hack is out... all can use it. The muisic biz is way behind in Tech and will never catch up. They are still confused how 11 year olds that downloaed the latest Backstreet boys CD off Napster were able to get the upper hand on them. I may just go out and get that Crapy universal CD just so I can see what kind of damage I can do to it.


Universal... this is personal

[Chumley]

I believe BMG tried it with a Natalie Imbruglia cd and so many people complained that they restocked with normal cds after a while... Music is meant to be easy, the worry about how to play it will put everyone off, even those with all the appropriate software/hardware. I want a CD where i can play at home/ at work/ in the car/ at my friends etc without ANY hassle. It will never work.... it mustn't!

[Edited by Chumley on 12-19-2001 at 05:02 AM]

[areeves]

I'm not great at petition writing but someone who has a flair for that sort should go to http://www.PetitionOnline.com
and set one up to start the ball rolling, spead the word and collect the sigs

[Matthé]

I actually want them to do it because it will kill them
sales will plumet and they'll be forced to do the same as with BMG's Imbruglia fiasco, repress and replace cd's.
they are finally paying the price for overcharging music

[Thinks Different]

bah...

As long as there will be AV-cables and AV-input cards, you'll always be able to copy the sound whatever source its coming from. Or are the new stereos not gonna have a headphone-output?

It just takes a little math knowledge to see how easy this problem is to solve for the major labels. Just let the music free and sell all CD to and affordable price.
F. ex you have to bay about 20 bucks for a pop CD in sweden. Lets say 1 out of 10 will actually buy the CD at this price, and 9 will download it instead.
If the CD would have been 5 bucks, I'm pretty sure they'd have sold more than 4 out of 10, easily.

Also, no "real" bands make their income from CD-selling. Only pop-stars do (Britney spears, BSB, etc.), and who cares if they'd fade away?
How come the independent labels never have complained about mp3s?

[j763]

Universal are only hurting themselves with this move. This means that purchasing universal cd's is no longer an option for mac users, we are now forced to pirate their music. I can gaurntee that someone (mac user or not) will work out a way around the protection and be able to rip the CD into MP3s. Once that happens, the CD will be passed around LimeWire and various other clients and we'll get it that way. In the meantime go to universal, write a complaint to them (i won't ever buy any of your products again etc.) write to amazon and cdnow saying that you will purchase nothing from their website unless they remove all CDs with such protection.

[nonreflectiveobject]

Can anyone provide a list of record companies that Universal owns/controls/operates? A boycott is easier if we are all informed. Are companies serviced by Universal's distribution arm also affected by this? Also, the fact that a CD would play in a Wintel PC but not a Mac, DVD player, etc. is a tad strange. From my understanding, the "encryption" placed on other CD's (such as that of the Natalie Imbruglia debacle) is digital 'noise' that interferes with the drivers of a CDRom drive. Actually, the information I've heard is that this only interrupts a Wintel drive. Can anyone tell me more/correct my misinformation?

[Romain]

This is beyond stupid.
Mac user can already enjoy Playsation game on there mac. It will be so easy to crack music CD's and put them on a web site for free download.
People won't even want to buy those new CD's, and they just look n the internet to download their fav song.

[Busonerd]

From what I can tell, I believe that the CD is encrypted or something. Digital noise will not interfere with most cd rom players, but will interfere with a wintel box. Since it does not work on the Macintosh or on some cdrom players, I would guess that the CD requires some proprietary decoding algorithm. But then again, that would mean that 99% of all cd players would not play them and that would mean that Universal has marketers with IQs below 20

--Dave

[dricci]

I believe the CDs are recorded in a "dual mode" of some sort. Basically, the standard audio tracks (like on a normal cd) are put on one part of the CD and "noise" is added that interfears with ALL computers (I'll get to the wintel way in a second). So, newer stereos can play these CDs, but some older ones pick up the noise and can't.

Now for the wintel part, there's the other part of the CD. These are special windows-media type files that use the digital rights management which is a proprietary thing that Microsoft runs. These are sort of like .wma files with encryption. The Windows Media Player type app can "play" these files because it speaks the language and knows how to decode these files. No other type of apps can do this, like iTunes and such.

I'm sure that someone will be able to figure out a mac program to open these windows media type files in time, but of course this will be "illegal" as a violation of the DMCA.

[blackpeter]

Everyone knows that the advent of MP3’s (and MP3 swapping) increased sales of audio CD’s, and had the big guys only recognized this fact, we might just be looking at a fairer market today. Instead, they refused to change with the times – refused to reduce prices to something more competitive (like $7-$10 a CD), and now are refusing to maintain the little trust and support they have from their remaining customers by giving us LESS PRODUCT for the SAME PRICE?

I’m going out TODAY to get Virtual PC for OSX. As soon as I get home I’m downloading Morpheus. As soon as this is done, I’m will to proceed to “borrow” every new piece of music I desire. When the music industry decides they want me back, they’ll let me know by treating me with a little respect. If so, I’ll go back to my local store and complete my collection with the actual CD’s and cover art (and in so, doing my part to compensate the artist).

[rekras]

i think these rich assholes are just going to see EVERYONE and i mean EVERYONE get they're **** online now, and not buy CD's at all. Serves em right rich bastards.

[ThorPrime]

I think this will be great. Especially if the other Big Boys follow suit. If that happens, and everyone goes out and downloads everything, maybe bands won't use labels at all. After all, most bands make way more money off a T-shirt or poster than off of their CD's.

[eyelikeart]

so how do we go about really making a boycott get noticed and make a difference?

seriously...

[Kethoticus]

If I can not play a Universal CD in any of my equipment, it doesn't get bought. It's really very simple. Besides, most of my music comes from companies like Sire, WaxTrax and Netwerk (are any of these Universal subsidiaries?). And if I want to make a copy, I can always get my DV camcorder and my headphone jack-to-RCA cable and make a recording from the receiver into my DV camcorder--a perfect digital copy of a clean analog signal. This is how I made .MP3s of my LPs (since I didn't want to put wear and tear on my records and turntable). There's always a way around this nonsense folks.

What kills me is, these morons are using the cloak of copyright protection to help them exercise such ridiculously tight control over everything that they pull a Bill Gates. Amazing. There's a saying that says that people who have little but are content are richer than those who have plenty and yet do not feel filled.

[milksheikh]

Universal told retailers that it would honor refunds on all returned discs -- even for CDs that have been opened.


Rather than boycott, the approach should be to purchase the CDs, open them, and then return them. Maybe then they'll get the picture...

[SPG]

That's exactly what I plan to do. I will go and buy every copy protected CD, then return it. Then I'll go to the next store, open it, and return it, over and over. Tiring? yes. Vindictive? Yes.
What's to stop people from making analog copies and posting those?
Don't say Macrovision, there are plenty of sites that sell Macrovision disabled DVD players for about the same price as regular ones, and Macrovision cant stop them. THere will always be hacks around any copy protection system.

[blakespot]

As someone suggested on...

http://www.ipodhacks.com

...boycott all general Universal CD's, but buy the one's that are protected (we need to keep a list, somehow) and RETURN them. This will raise eyebrows and red flags. They had a sale and LOST it due to the CD being defective.

That's the best plan, and how I intend to proceed.



blakespot

[strngwys]

nothing makes a hacker more giddy then some huge corporation telling them "they can't do something" within a few weeks someone will have already made both A) a app that will play their cd's and B) a windows based app that will rip the audio to the "Scary" mp3 format. so instead of mac users having to purchase worthless coasters for their coffee table they will bypass the geniuses at Universal. nothing says ouch like 25 million music lovers "stealing" you music because you have given them choice. wtg Universal maybe next week you can introduce a cd that only plays during full moons.

[Christophe]

I believe the technology they'll be using is SafeAudio. It has been developed by Macrovision who's technology already protects DVDs against copy to VCRs.

CD's contain data to compensate and fix reading errors, so a little scratch on the cd won't make it unusable... This is very important because otherwise the slightest scratch would have the same effect as a "bad block" on a floppy or HD.

The protection consists of deliberately writing fake values in the "correction data", to trick the cd player into thinking it just went through an unrecoverable error.

When an error is unrecoverable cd players perform an interpolation so you don't "hear" the problem. This interpolation system is built in cd players or cd-rom drives, so the cd will play on either system as long as the cd is not read in data mode. (in PCs the music goes directly from the cd player to the sound card, without going through the computer's memory).

The protection is effective because when you rip a cd, the computer reads it in data mode and the cd player does not perform the interpolation. The result will sound like bursts of static in the music...

The problem with macs is that they read cd's in data mode only... That allows itunes to display its cute graphics, and implement an equalizer for example.
When you read a cd on the mac, it's like making a temporary rip of the cd... so you won't be able to play the cd on macintosh...

I believe it is a shame to deliberately introduce errors on CDs for despite what macrovision claims, it might alter the quality... It is like slashing a painting to make sure noone will steal it...

BOYCOT UNIVERSAL !

[GeeYouEye]

If the post above is true, then why not use, at least to listen, and then record out of course, use AppleCD Audio Player? It is still included, I think with OS 9.2, definitely with 9.1. I am pretty sure that it reads the files as music, which is why if it is open when you insert the CD, you get a generic CD icon(the Black & White pic of something, not really sure what) and all the files show as zero k, and are really just shortcuts;if you copy them to the HD and try to play them, it will ask to reinsert the CD. Problem (hopefully) solved. If that doesn't work, try http://www.petitionsonline.com

[BiG™]

As sent to UMG:

"This letter is in regards to UMG's upcoming release of 'copy-protected' CDs.

What are you guys doing? Where are you going with this? Okay, a few points I need to make. You are limiting your audience. How are you doing this? By instituting software encryption on CDs which will limit the amount of hardware these CDs can be played with. I have a Mac. Never even owned a PC. I wouldn't. I know a good product when I see one. I am willing to pay for the quality. When I hear good music, I pay to own a CD with that music pressed onto it, to have the ability to listen to it where ever and whenever and however I want. I'm able to make a backup of that by limitation of the license agreement which I am entering into upon purchasing the aformentioned CD. I used to make tapes all the time. I didn't want to hurt my CD. I wanted something durable. Now, in a more computer-infused time, tapes are redundant. I back my CDs up on my hard drive. I use an MP3 player, a Rio. It is great to ski with. Now, well, now I won't be listening to anything released by UMG because I won't be wasting my money on a function-limited product. Your signed artists will, eventually, notice this, and when their contract comes up for renewel, will they want to? Regardless of them signing, me buying the CD or you creating a more multi-platformed 'copy-protection', PC users won't care. There are a lot of PC users too. The more people, the better the chance that your 'copy-protection' is hacked. And ripped into MP3s, .wav's, real audio...whatever. Pirated. Distributed illegally.
And so all your 'copy protection' has managed to do is exclude a portion of your user base. Which means even less sales than this whole MP3 thing has caused you. Look for solutions, don't grasp blindly.

farewell!

one person never to buy CDs from UMG again."


This is the first time I will ever advocate this. Don't buy CDs, if you want the music, get the mp3 when your PC friend rips it using 'umg_hack.exe'. Hopefully if UMG doesn't take notice, its artists will.

[Christophe]

Originally posted by GeeYouEye
If the post above is true, then why not use, at least to listen, and then record out of course, use AppleCD Audio Player? It is still included, I think with OS 9.2, definitely with 9.1. I am pretty sure that it reads the files as music, which is why if it is open when you insert the CD, you get a generic CD icon(the Black & White pic of something, not really sure what) and all the files show as zero k, and are really just shortcuts;if you copy them to the HD and try to play them, it will ask to reinsert the CD. Problem (hopefully) solved. If that doesn't work, try http://www.petitionsonline.com

That would work with OS 9.x, but OS X ALWAYS reads CDs in data mode. Rebooting in MacOS 9 (or even maybe using classic) to listen music is NOT an acceptable solution to me...

[marco114]

Ok, if it comes out of my speakers, it would be plenty easy to record right into my digital camera, or digital player, record the music, and convert it to an aiff, and back to an mp3. if you can hear it, it can be copied. There is no way around it.

[Mike Gagne]

who cares about nonrippable. Boycott the music. They could develop a way to get us music that they could make a profit on. They insist on using the cd format which allows them the greatest profit. When they went from vinyl to cd the price jumped by 2 and never came down. And who do you think made the money? Dont believe it was the artist! The argument that they are protecting artist rights is hollow coming from an industry that systematically cheated artist/performers.

Listen to local performers from where you live and support them by buying their music which is usually at a price well below the commercial stuff anyway. Buy from the big guys (all 5 of them) when you have no other option. Truly supporting artists would be the best way to introduce a new genre to our shrinking world of musical entertainment choices. Thanks for your ear...

[djwoolf]

The article said that the cds will not work on and DVD PLAYER and what do most macs from the Original Bule and white G3's, G4's and Imacs have in them?... DVD players! Who cares about the .wma standards I think it wont work on PC's w/DVD player either.
Now i do disagree w/ universeral's implentation of the encryption standard, but i also do believe in the PERFORMER'S intellectual property rights. Yeah the big guys charge too much and the artist gets too little, but some body came up w/ the material and sold it so they deserve the cedit and the profit. Im a traind musician and my group makes money selling CD's of performances and fund raising. We dont copy or rip cd's because it is detremental to our pockets. So imagine if you dreated something and some one else made and sold or gave away your same product you'd be pretty miffed b/c it is hurting you. Just think about it with an open mind instead of reacting.

[Chumley]

"Universal Music Group consists of record labels A&M Records, Decca Record Company, Deutsche Grammophon, Geffen Records, Interscope Records, Island Def Jam Music Group, Jimmy and Doug’s Farmclub.com, MCA Nashville, MCA Records, Mercury Records, Motown Records, Philips, Polydor, Universal Records, and Verve Music Group." Universal website. Thats alot of music!! I guess they feel they have the weight to push this one thru, or the reserves incase it messes up.

[richvideo]

Toast Audio extractor...

Had an Elektra CD the other day... the Cure greatest hits... got around this protection. Encodes as an AIFF.... these can be converted. An extra step, but works.

These a great article in Entertainment Weekly a couple issues back called MP# the hard way. Talks all about this.

They've been doing this in Europe where CDRs outsell CDs. Protection keeps it from working in many slot loading, car, and high end systems.

And yes... I think they are morons....

[jefhatfield]

they sound like microserf

[jefhatfield]

microserf is the name some microsoft employees and certified microsoft techies call the company

steve ballmer may be ceo, but bill still resides as king and if he wants to pay below silicon valley market value like he does, he can very well do that and tell the rest to shove it

every year, there are legions of college graduates and trade school graduates from the microsoft schools totally willing to take the first thing they can find their hands on, even if its a $20,000 a year stint as an MCSE in redmond, washington at HQ (dice.com)

better off, just go to work for 'joe blow' computer components in san jose for 60k, that way you can pay your car off and your bragging rights will not be that you work for uncle bill in redmond, but that you are still a kid at 22 driving a lexus and wearing a rolex or better yet, buying a new G4 every six months or helping your dad build his restaurant or feeding the homeless...anything but working for king bill the monopolizer

not to cut bill down, he knows more about biz than anyone on earth

[Chumley]

I'll give Universal 2 months after implimentation to realise they did bad... PLACE YOUR BETS!

[tcolling]

OK, guys, let's take a step back here a second. First of all, Universal Music is a huge company. As a previous poster noted, there are many, many subsidiaries of Universal. I doubt that any single person will remember all of them when you go to the local music store, unless one plans on carrying a cheat sheet with them everywhere they go. (By the way, they will be buying more companies as their budget allows, better keep up to date.)

Secondly, UMG is at about a billion bucks bigger than Apple, depending on how you do the math. I'm guessing they figure that it's Apple that is going to be doing the change, not them. UMG is definitely the bigger stick in the music industry, and they get to make the rules as they see fit.

Finally, boycott schmoycott. Buy the music that works with your system, or the way you personally choose to spend your money. Supply and demand and the cash register will ultimately dictate what the market is willing to bear. If you get a hacker code, fine, hack away BUT DON'T STEAL MUSIC. Go ahead and buy the encrypted CD, break the code and store, but don't cheat those that are selling the product.

If you think that music is overpriced, and we're all getting ripped off, fine, that is your opinion and you have a right to it. But you know what? I happen to think that gas is overpriced and we're getting ripped off, but that doesn't mean I don't buy it, and it certainly doesn't mean I drive away without paying for it. Get real, you jackasses that think because it's not something tangible, you should be able to get it for free. It's stealing, and just because you think it's not worth what your paying, or you don't like the form it's in, doesn't mean YOU can rip it off.

UMG is simply trying to put an end to illegal distribution of their product because of the ever growing group of individuals who choose to ignore the fact that what they are doing is simply wrong. All walks of life are infected with this disease. People who wouldn't in their wildest dreams take so much as a stick of gum from the local five and dime, people with savings accounts hundreds of times the cost of buying the CD's, people who are willing to spend hundreds of dollars on the storage media, but won't spend the $12 for the original. IT IS OUR FAULT that this is happening. UMG has every right to do what it can to protect its investment in their product. The worst part is, for all of the downloads and illegal copying, there is probably very little that is being actually listened to. For example, a co-worker of mine apparently has made a hobby of collecting illegal copies of songs, and I forgot how many actual gigs he has, but we did the math, and if he listened to each song once in succession 24/7/365, he would not get through his collection before God decided to hit his 'stop' button.

So here's the real way to stop the encryption. NEVER download illegal copies of music. That's it. Simple, yet effective. It's just everybody has to abide by the rules. If everyone refuses to make illegal copies, I guarantee that the music industry will stop investing million$ into researching how to stop it. Maybe the cost of our CD's will even finally go down. (Oh, and by the way, if you buy the CD, copy it, and then sell the CD without deleting the copy, it's the same thing.) In the meantime, buy music from the bands that are both musically appealing to you, and actually work on the system you are using. There are thousands of artists and titles to choose from. I'm sure you can find enough to fill up your iPod.

As a final note, in case you were wondering, I do not work for: A recording label, studio, band, retail store, rep agency, distributor, or anything associated with the music industry, although I do play piano...but not very well...

[VanderVecken]

Don't boycott the universal sales; buy copies of each disc they release with the copy protection enabled, and return them immediately. The retailers are so nervous about this, that Universal is backing a full return policy for consumers for these cds at the outset. Dealing with a return costs several times as much as not selling a disc, so this is a much more focused way to express yourself.

VanderVecken

[eyelikeart]

I say we hang him.....them we kill him!!!

Although he is a genius, he sucks....period. I just have the feeling that he's trying to do as much as he can to have Microsoft monopolize the entire industry, and this is just another road he's taking since their last court battle.

I have mixed feelings about this. I hate the fact that they are putting copy protection, but in all respects i understand that they are scared out of their minds about losing their recording empire. Since Apple is such a small market, we will reap the pain of the music industry's fear.

This is the list of labels that Universal Music Group controls as of today (from http://www.universalmusic.com)

interscope/geffen a&m
-almo sounds
-coolsville records
-dreamworks
-e plurbis unum
-flip records
-jake records
-nothing records
-outpost recordings

farmclub.com

island/def jam music group
-def jam
-king recordings
-murder, inc.
-roc-a-fella
-def soul
-island records
-rounder records

mca nashville

mca records

mercury nashville

motown records

the verve music group
-blue thumb
-chess
-commodore
-decca jazz
-grp
-impulse!
-priceless jazz
-swingstation
-verve

universal classics
-celtic heartbeat
-decca broadway
-iclassics.com

universal latino

universal records
-BIV10 records
-cash money records
-cherry entertainment
-mojo records
-pallas records
-republic records
-ztt records

universal music enterprise
-hip-q records
-universal special markets
-utv records

lost highway

[Chumley]

They're a greedy bunch aren't they...

[zuffen]

Here is what I think.

If the media moguls in the world want to limit distribution of material to what they deem legal methods, go for it.

I haven't bought a cd in three years, not a single dvd, not a single video tape. Not even gone to a concert. Why? Because I'm sick of corporate greed. The cost of producing, manufactureing, distributing these things has went down. But the consumer cost has went up.

Metallic ,the band, a bunch a dick munchers, had thier start and were supported by free distribution, then they over greed, turned their back on the fans and the system that made them what they are today. Lars was the only rich kid in the bunch, and could afford to buy what he listened to. The others had to be making illegal copies off Lars' originals

How did it hurt them to let Napster alone. Distributing the music sells a butt load of other merchandise. And I bet most all the Metallic fans were still buying all that and the CD's. Plus like it was said At 18 bucks a CD that cost .11 cents to make and send to the store. The profit is there to cover any true illegal pirating

I couldn't find Metallic albums when they first made the scene. Back in the day when your retailers banned explicit material and pronography (where is Tipper Gore now?) it was hard to find bands like Slayer, Black Sabbath, etc. Thank God for friends who could find the stuff by paying to much from the import bin at the head shop/music store in the next city down the road. Those days are over. By the way it didn't stop me from buying my own copy when it did become available. Or not buy something that was total crap.

I would like Universal to have a money back policy on crappy products.

I Don't plan too buy any media (except software)any time soon, if I pay 1 buck or 100 bucks for a peice of media it is mine to use as I see fit. I can copy it a thousand different ways As long as I'm the only user. The media moguls want that to stop so they can charge you the consumer a repeating fee for the same source material.

Just stop buying into the grand scheme. YOu won't miss it after awhile. I killed my DSS subscription, it was hard a first, but my life is a whole lot better for it. I actually go outside and see daylight now instead of watching hours of worthless programming.

[Edited by zuffen on 12-19-2001 at 12:35 PM]

[britboy]

http://www.fatchucks.com/corruptcds/corrupt.html

has a list of all known cd's worldwide that are reported to include anti-ripping measures.

[evildead]

Here is a link to the universal publishing group web site. You can submit comments there....

http://www.umusicpub.com/


I did... a nasty one.. we all should

[atlascott]

This whole deal is just plain silly.

Consumers are NOT going to go out and buy new equipment to play these new crappy copy protected discs. I will not and will NEVER buy these discs. I have a $400 Toshiba dvd player that I use as my CD player at home. I have a shelf unit at work, and an in-dash cd player in my 2001 car. I 'aint replacing any of them.

And someone WILL hack the copy protection so it plays and can be ripped from a PC and a Mac, if only out of spite for this music industry crap. I mean seriously, how can they justify controlling every use of the music when the industry busts its ass to get their music played on the radio and MTV FOR FREE...for that matter, why haven;t they made music broadcasts (TV and Radio)unrecordable? Perhaps because they have some understanding that WIDE EXPOSURE and dissemination of music leads to its popularity? Which leads to sales? Evidently a thesis they have forgotten when it comes to digital use...

[agreenster]

Boy, is THIS going to backfire.

Just as everyone mentioned before, there are other (more complicated) ways to rip music from CD's, even protected ones, just like ThinkingDifferent mentioned, and the above post. All it will take is ONE person to rip some 'protected' music and upload it online, and BAM. Exponential wildfire of music stealing all over again. Now, it will REALLY cause trouble at Universal. Not only will people NOT buy their music, but ALL they will do is rip it off, so they can play it in their Mac, car stereo, or DVD player.

And yes, it is a personal stab toward Apple. I feel as though that Apple could actually file suit against them because this directly counteracts their new product, iPod. Apple always promotes 'not stealing music,' and its perfectly legal to rip music from a CD that you bought. Therefore, Apple is doing everything legal, and Universal is keeping them from fair competition.

I see lots of trouble brewing......

Bad move Universal, bad move. Rule number ONE in selling a product: Dont piss your buyers off.

One more thing......

What platform do the vast (and I mean VAST) majority of professional musicians use?

Yeah. You guessed it.

[chewbaccapits]

How is this any different from the DVDs we all buy and support? How many times have I seen, in fine print,that certain extra features on the disc will not work on a mac? Pretty much all the time! Yet, on Apple's website, all the movies that don't support "extra DVD features" on a mac, are featured in all there glory(under quick time). Universal is doing nothing different from what the rest of the ENTERTAINMENT industry is doing:Disregarding MAC users. Obviously, this boycott needs support from Steve jobs. He needs to talk to his industry bitches to make some changes.....
You know, I don't own a BUG'S LIFE,TOY STORY 1 or 2 dvd, but, it would be interesting to see if all the "extra features" will work on MACs.
Seriously, I down to boycott any f'er who does me wrong, but this really pisses me off.......BOYCOTT UNIVERAL>>> Chewbaccapits:.

[tcolling]

Here is some of the falsehoods and just plain idiocy that is coming from this thread. These are direct quotes from the forum:

"They're a greedy bunch aren't they... "

Yes, they are. And so is Coca-Cola, McDonald's Corp, Ford, GM, the New York Yankees, Microsoft, and, yes, even Apple. Don't you realize it is the first and foremost function of almost every single company that exists to be as profitable and as efficient as possible? Of course, they want to protect their product, of course, they want to maximize their profits, of course, they want to sell their product for as high as price as the market will allow.

"I mean seriously, how can they justify controlling every use of the music when the industry busts its ass to get their music played on the radio and MTV FOR FREE...for that matter, why haven;t they made music broadcasts (TV and Radio)unrecordable?"

The same way every other company justifies trying to control their product. Guys, do you remember Apple licensing their product to third party vendors? Do you remember how they pulled the plug on the clone experiment? Isn't that controlling their product. Also, the music that is played on the radio is free to YOU, but not the radio station. They pay royalties through agencies such as ASCAP and BMI. Oh, and the last I checked, MTV is not a free channel. And another thing, according to the Supreme Court, you have every right to copy audio and video transmissions (i.e. tape a movie off of HBO), as long as your sole purpose is for personal viewing. Record away! (Just don't distribute).

"I actually want them to do it because it will kill them
sales will plumet and they'll be forced to do the same as with BMG's Imbruglia fiasco, repress and replace cd's.
they are finally paying the price for overcharging music"

Supply and demand. If you think a product is overpriced, DON'T BUY IT. You do not have an inalienable right to be able to by Britney Spears music for $3.00. At least I'm pretty sure our forefathers didn't put it into the Constitution (posted with respect to residents of other countries, but I'm guessing it's not in your Constitution, either).

"It just takes a little math knowledge to see how easy this problem is to solve for the major labels. Just let the music free and sell all CD to and affordable price.
F. ex you have to bay about 20 bucks for a pop CD in sweden. Lets say 1 out of 10 will actually buy the CD at this price, and 9 will download it instead.
If the CD would have been 5 bucks, I'm pretty sure they'd have sold more than 4 out of 10, easily.’"

Except you are forgetting the cost of distribution. Imagine it costs $4 to distribute the CD, then you've gone from a profit of $5 down to a profit of $1. Then you need to sell five times as many CD's to make up for the reduction in price, which of course means there is five times the risk of items being left on the shelf, and five times the losses if the album is a bust. It's the same reason a tie costs as much as a shirt, even though it uses 1/10th of the material.

"Everyone knows that the advent of MP3’s (and MP3 swapping) increased sales of audio CD’s, and had the big guys only recognized this fact, we might just be looking at a fairer market today"

I would like to know where those facts come from. How is that possibly quantifiable? Are we saying that we're smarter than the people that have been running multi-million dollar companies for years?

"Don't boycott the universal sales; buy copies of each disc they release with the copy protection enabled, and return them immediately. The retailers are so nervous about this, that Universal is backing a full return policy for consumers for these cds at the outset. Dealing with a return costs several times as much as not selling a disc, so this is a much more focused way to express yourself."

Just don't buy the CD's in the first place if you don't want them. You'll waste gas, or your time, and cost yourself as much as you are costing UMG. The retailers will get hurt the most, and they are truly the innocent bystanders in this. Besides, the retailers may very well have shrink wrap machines and have authority to repackage the CD's and put them back on the shelf. In this case, the only "hurt" that will be put on UMG is if the product doesn't ultimately get sold to someone else. Again, just don't buy the product if you don't want it.

"those stupid little bastards"

Oh yeah, that'll get 'em. Good point.

"I say we hang him.....them we kill him!!!

Although he is a genius, he sucks....period. I just have the feeling that he's trying to do as much as he can to have Microsoft monopolize the entire industry, and this is just another road he's taking since their last court battle."

The above is in reference to Bill Gates. I am the first to extol the fact that Bill Gates is the anti-christ, however, he has nothing to do with this. As reported by an intelligent poster, the problem revolves around Apple computers treating the audio CD as a data CD. As an aside to this note, for those of you that think the quality of the music is going to be degraded, and that is your argument - THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE MP3 FORMAT DOES. It is a compression scheme, it removes some of the information from the disk.

"After all, most bands make way more money off a T-shirt or poster than off of their CD's."

Huh? Most bands? Prove THAT one to me. (Personally, I have over 400 CD's, funny, not a single shirt, poster, mug, tote bag...) And it doesn't matter anyway, because we're not talking about the musician's making money, we're talking about the record companies making money.

"I'll give Universal 2 months after implimentation to realise they did bad"

OK, group, this is for everyone. Any argument made in writing loses 90% of its power when it is expressed with porr spilling and not good grammer. It maks us luk stoopid. It's tough to be poignant without a command of the language. Proofread, spellcheck, whatever. (Bad spellers of the world, untie!)

A couple of final notes. I think people assume that all of the bands, if they are good, make money, at least to some degree. Please read the following: "According to SoundScan (an organization that tracks retail sales of records in stores by their bar codes), 288,591 albums were released during 2000. Fewer than 100 of these albums sold more than 1 million units (platinum); and just over 100 albums sold between 500,000 and 999,000 units (gold). On the other end of the scale, 246,000 albums sold less than 1000 units."

That means that less than 15% of all albums sell more that 1000 copies. I have read in the past (can't verify today's numbers) that around 5% of albums actually make money for the big record labels, but they make so much that they cover all of the losses of the lesser bands. So when we figure that ripping off the latest N'Sync won't be felt in their pocket, well, you're probably right, but there will be some guy who works his ass off making some really inspiring, hip tunes that you'll never get the chance to hear, because the big companies can't afford to take a risk on some unknown because the stakes are too high.

I hope that we as a race start to hold intellectual property with the same reverence we hold material property, and if we simply refuse to make illegal copies, UMG and others will stop trying to encrypt their products. When that happens, all of the cultures of the world will be richly rewarded with an onslaught of new art and artists. Please don't read this as meaning I am against MP3 or copying of the CD's for personal use, I just think that us consumers as a whole have put ourselves in this position.

[Journeyman]

Wouldn't it be better to buy the CD (even if you don't want it, and being careful of a no returns policy) and then returning the CD citing the fact it doesn't play on your stereo (even if it does). Wouldn't having a massive "returned product" rather than a "poor sales product" on there books give them more of display of disproval? Or do you think they will just fudge the numbers?

Just a thought!

[ThorPrime]

"-I would like to know where those facts come from. How is that possibly quantifiable? Are we saying that we're smarter than the people that have been running multi-million dollar companies for years?-"

I think it was on CNN or something they said that CD sales went up 5% when napster got big and immediately went down 5% after napster closed. People would buy CD's from band that they never would if they hadn’t downloaded an MP3 and found out they were good.
Free distribution of music is good for small bands, but sucks for the big ones.

Feel free to quote me on this:

If you can't afford MTV, LimeWire is your friend.

[Chumley]

TCOLLING, thankyou for quoting everyone in your pretentious grand master over view of this topic. What a joy it is to have so much time to copy and paste a whole thread. For the record, my entries that you quoted where of a less than serious nature mimicing various tones of speech and character... In a way, your entry could be seen as a metaphor to the music 'reproduction' that annoys the record industry into making draconian software protection. Therefore, every post from now on will contain copy protection, to prevent thread regurgitation...

[jefhatfield]

i could see how the free market is good for the small bands but the labels that hold the big bands probably have the power right now but that looks to be changing

napster might have been stopped and downloading free/pirated music may be outright wrong but trying to stop the distribution of free music is like the tv or radio trying to stop the home computer industry...it's simply too late for the record companies to act because they can only slow the napsters of the world gaining dominance

being a musician, i tend to side against napster but i know you can't stop technology

[tcolling]

Hi Chumley. You're right - my post did appear pretentious. I guess appearing pretentious is the same as being pretentious, and I apologize if I have offended any of the posters here. I would like all to know that I have much more respect for the Joe Consumer (as I am one, also) than I do for UMG or any big corporation acronym out there.

My intent was to simply let people know how things may (or may not) be interpreted as they are being read by others. That any reaction to what one sees as an unjust or unfair practice is more powerful when followed up by facts which are presented clearly without knee-jerk reactions. (instead of just calling them 'bastards').

To all of the posters here, you have taken your gripes and suggested countermeasures, and even if I don't agree with them, it is something I have not done, outside of my pat "don't buy them". Therefore, my post clearly lacks the substance and emotion that yours carry. I understand that, and again, I respect that. However, I don't believe that our archnemesis Mr. Gates is involved, and I don't believe in any way this specifically an anti-Apple thing. They must picture us as 'collateral damage' in the marketplace. I do believe that UMG is ignoring a market share, and hopefully they will ultimately understand that and remove the encryption technique they plan to use.

And Chumley, thanks for taking the time to read my previous thread (as well as this one, if you've gotten this far). It was long, and as you can tell, I tend to stretch things out a bit. I have a feeling that you and I could go on for hours over a couple of beers at the local pub.

[Chumley]

It's as much an anti-Apple thing as bull bars are an anti-badger thing, its all about protection but Apple isn't going to be a road kill... Either people will complain or will hack. The only way it CAN work is if it plays ok for everyone.. I repeat EVERYONE. I know people can change but for the right to play the same thing, I dont think so... It ain't going to be an easy ride for Universal.

Note to TCOLLING:
Hey man I was tired, I apologise too...

[agreenster]

Good point. It is too late for Universal. They will try this, but the technology will still beat it out. I just hope that we dont lose really good musicians because they cant get paid.

Im not a napster person, but I am an Apple/iPod person. The only thing I dont like about this situation is that I wont be able to go to a store, buy a CD, and transfer it to iPod. Thats distressing, because it could not only hurt Apple, but puts a damper on a really neat product.

[eyelikeart]

it's always going to be this way from now on...

someone takes a preventive measure....and a hacker is going to have enough time on his/her hands to find a way around it...

then someone is going to find a new way.....and it'll be overdone by another....

What about Universal movie releases? Boycotting their movies would definitely give them a hard blow below the belt!

[mischief]

All these Industry idiots are trying this crap. They haven't figured out yet that they can't continue to screw both the artists AND the customers. At some point a new generation of record labels will emerge that do "pay by play" streaming and CD printing "on demand" with automatic shipping and realistic costs. CD's wouldn't cost nearly as much if you just did it straight.

[agreenster]

I never thought Id do this, but........

in the nature of Mr. Hatfield

Congrats on your 100th posting.

[mischief]

That's what happens when yer boss having no design input for a few hours coensides with a strong need to be oppinionated.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by mischief
That's what happens when yer boss having no design input for a few hours coensides with a strong need to be oppinionated.

how do u think I frequent these boards so often?

he he he...

[agreenster]

Are we all the same person?

Ditto on all accounts

[mischief]

yeah, if we got together in our "spare" time we could take over the world.

[eyelikeart]

he he he....

Let's start a revolt!!

[mischief]

I could sure use some code jockeys for a game I've been meaning to develop......

It'd make Evercrack look like 1st edition d&d circa 1977.

[saffron!!]

Anyone can play the CD on a player and capture the music output as a .wav file using very rudimentary editing software. There's tons of it around. From there you can change it into an MP3. This copyguard will accomplish nothing. By the way, anyone willing to accept the quality of an MP3 won't mind the analoge transfer. The time involved in minimal.

Banzai

[CHess]

Just curious, there was a lot of emotion, indignation and such at the start of this thread. Somewhere along the line it seemed to calm down and it kind of seems as if people are resigning themselves to letting someone come up with hacks and that someday Universal will back down or something.

There are a lot of good thoughts here on why we care about keeping music CDs copy protection free (along with some not so useful thoughts). Who here is willing to actually do more than just vent here? Who is at least writing an e-mail to Universal Music Group or even some of their related artists?

[eyelikeart]

I'm willing to fight it out...

[saffron!!]

I am also willing to send an email. Excluding a group from even listening to CD's is paranoid and stupid in my opinion. Before digital audio people still made copies of music in various analog formats. Any commercial use of the music would involve high royalties and is very profitable for the record companies and the artists. I fail to see how excluding Mac users from listening to music has any advantage for them.

[CHess]

All I would ask of people who do write e-mail is to be intelligent about writing :) There are some good posts here that express some good points.

Anyway, just write! These are the labels mentioned on Universal Music Group's site:
A&M Records, Decca Record Company, Deutsche Grammophon, Geffen Records, Interscope Records, Island Def Jam Music Group, Jimmy and Doug’s Farmclub.com, MCA Nashville, MCA Records, Mercury Records, Motown Records, Philips, Polydor, Universal Records, and Verve Music Group.

I'm sure there are other affiliated or subsidiary companies too (probably dozens). I think there is a Universal Music Club (European, I think).

I wrote to A&M (www.amrecords.com). This is the only contact e-mail address I found on their site:
feedback@igamail.com
(Interscope, Geffen, A&M)

I also wrote to Decca, which has a web based feedback at: http://www.deccaclassics.com/dmg/contact.asp

A lot of artists have their own sites too.

Okay, so maybe we won't win any wars, but if you don't fight, you lose. Or more fittingly, if you're not willing to fight, perhaps you deserve to lose. So don't just vent, write!

May the force be with us... :)

[kemal]

This is my first time at a MacRumors forum so I hope I don't screw it up. (:

Why certain devices won't play past the Cactus copy protection:
(As I understand it, and I'm often all wet.)

The introduced noise (*damage*) is not a problem for normal CD players because they view it as a bad spot on the cd and merely interpolate around it. These CD players produce a digital stream which is fed to the DAC and that is about it.

Newer Macintosh machines (starting with colors) use the ATAPI interface to send the digital audio off the drive, not the 3 or four wire analog cable. Therefore, these drives are reading the audio tracks as files. If these files contain *induced damage*, the computer will view them as corrupted files and quit.

Now DVD players, or at least the one I have, use(s) a transport with an ATAPI interface so there is the reason for their not playing. Everything is viewed as data files.

I do not have a PS(/2) but I would guess ATAPI.

Now an Intel computer (We'll call it a Linux box) uses a four wire analog cable to get the sound to the sound card (or logic board sound chip set.) I'm guessing here - when the CD is told to play, it is played as a normal audio CD deck plays, feeding the digital stream to the internal DAC, taking care of the *induced damage*, etc.
But if this Linux box is tasked to rip the protected CD, it reads the tracks as files over the ATAPI interface and quits.

Note that many Linux boxes have sound cards and CD drives capable of skipping the analog cable and using a separate digital cable. Generally good for ripping. I don't know how this connection would be affected by Cactus.

As far as hacking around this problem, it may require a firmware change to ATAPI CD drives so that they parse the file data, fixing *induced damage*.

Oh, am I mad? This year in consumer electronics:
PM Cube, G4 dual 800, iPod, Arcam DV88 DVD player. That's four devices that are future music junk.

/K.

[joey j]

kemal>Newer Macintosh machines (starting with colors) use the ATAPI
interface to send the digital audio off the drive, not the 3 or four wire
analog cable. Therefore, these drives are reading the audio tracks as
files. If these files contain *induced damage*, the computer will view
them as corrupted files and quit.


If it's digital it will be ripped. True, having the data read as `files'
rather than having it spat out the audio passthrough as a DACed signal
will result in problems. Surely the error-correction can be implemented in
software though? The on-board DAC spits out audio which is corrected on
the fly, the logic to instruct the DAC on how to correct the data is
contained in firmware, just do the same thing at the userlevel. Cdparanoia
does that as I recall; any other Mac rippers do that? Fortunately there's
only so much one can do; the discs still have to play in stereos (with
acceptable quality) limiting the amount of damage which can be introduced.

[mischief]

The Market will decide the stupidity of this on it's own. Anything we tell them will make it easier for them to build it right. I'd rather the greedy bastards crashed and burned while money is still tight. If we tell them how every little Hack works, they'll eventually do it right. The first rule of Intelligence is keep yer mouth shut.

Think about it, they're screwing the Artists on one end and us on the other and making rediculous money at it. If they want to let their greed destroy them, so be it.

[Kadin2048]

Ever since I heard about this for the first time on Slashdot, I've been thinking about what shape this copy protection must take, to work on Windows PCs but not on Macs, and here's my take.

Macs have used industry-standard hardware for years. The CD-Rom drive in my Mac could easily be shoved into a Pentium box and made to work flawlessly. So whatever keeps it from working on Macs, it's not something in the hardware. So that leaves the software. But there can't be some additional piece of software that it takes to play the audio, because then NO piece of home audio equipment would play it.

Here's my guess as to what the CDs actually are: they're *multisession* discs with one Audio CD session and one ISO9660 session. The Audio CD session has the music, but with some distortion introduced into the signal before pressing that is removed by the noise-reduction circuitry present in home audio equipment, but not in CD-Roms (because circuitry like that in a computer would result in bad reads of computer data). The second, ISO session contains the music in some sort of proprietary, MP3-ish format like Liquid Audio or Windows Media, but tied into some pay scheme. Probably this has something to do with Pressplay (Universal's new internet music service, http://www.pressplay.com) and requires software that's PC only.

So that's how they get to be incompatible with Macs. And if I'm right, this also leaves BeOS, Amiga, BSD, and Linux users also shut out of Universal's plans for the future. Between these platforms (and everything else except Windows) I don't think that it will be particularly hard to implement a software version of the error-correcting circuitry present in the hardware of Universal-comptaible CD equipment, and then port that to all platforms. Until then, anyone who really wants to rip a Universal CD can just run a $5 Radioshack cable from the headphone jack of a CD player to the mic jack of his Mac and record the tracks at 1x. (Oops..does saying that put me in violation of the DMCA again? Damn.)

[hsteimer]

**** MICROSHIT AND ALL THEIR ALLIES I HATE THOSE GUYS... I JUST GOT AM iPOD.. HOE AM I SUPPOSED TO GET MUSIC ON IT???????

GOD **** THOSE ASSWHOLES!!!!

[hsteimer]

SORRY 4 MY LANGUAGE, BUT I HATE CERTAIN PEOPLE AND I COULD EXPLODE!!!!!!!!!

[atlascott]

As an Objectivist, I doubt you would find anyone more pro-business or pro-intelectual property than I am. But your ideas smack of dogmatism and are contrary to logic.

First, a copy protection scheme which punishes honest users for the 10% who are dishonest is a a bad business practice. Remember all the software that was copy-protected in the late 80's and early 90's? No one bought it and it was abandoned. This is a business practice which has been tried and has failed.

Second, it is not unreasonable for us to ask for a cheaper product if the record company is going to infringe on our fair use, because in real terms, a copy protected item is of less use to the consumer. For example, if I buy a CD which ONLY plays on my car's CD player, but not on my DVD player and not on my Mac, that CD better be substantially cheaper for it to make sense for me to to purchase it. Of course, the THEORY is that this measure will stop piracy, but in reality, it will limit the use by the honest consumer, and the "pirate" will hack the CD anyway. If the company fails to offer a reasonable choice to comsumers, a black market will develop (or in this case spread). Black markets ALWAYS operate and spread in circumstances where a desirable good or service is either over priced, in short supply, or both. It is up to the record company whether they choose to offer value or keep prices jacked up and push more and more people into casual piracy.

Third, EVERY for profit company is in business for one reason--to make a profit. The type of product or service offered dictates price and penetration into the market. For example, a fur coat (a luxury item) is several thousands of dollars, and it is understood that it will have a low market penetration (you aren't going to sell a whole lot of them, but you make your profit on per unit sales). On the other hand, there is the gallon of milk, which is more of a necessity. It is a low dollar item, with a high market penetration. Per unit, the company is probably making about .50 on a gallon of milk, but they sell 100,000 gallons per day, so they make their profit. The problem here is that record companies want to treat their music like a luxury item when it comes to profit per unit, but other times (re: units sold) as a common necessity.

I stand by my earlier analogy--record companies bust their hump to get their target artists airplay--the reason they do it is that they understand that the more people hear, the more likely they will go buy the CD. Period. But for some reason, some number cruncher sold these guys a bills of goods that, somehow, letting someone give their friend a track off of a CD is going to cut into sales. My response? Why dont they cut off radio airplay? Sure, they are getting some royalties for airplay, but it is not their bread an butter income--that comes from CD sales. And to the comsumer, they ARE giving away the music for free over the airwaves. It is child's play to equip your computer with a radio tuner and "steal" the music that way.

Finally, I dont think anyone disagrees that a company ought to be left alone to make a profit--thats capitalism, and it is in a large part why we enjoy the life we do in the US (and in much of the world). But we as comsumers have EVERY RIGHT to criticize a company that wants to charge us more, give us less, and single-handedly re-write what fair use means. Just because several companies are trying it (M$, Universal) does not mean we have to like it or put up with it, or watch it silently because the company is only pursuing profits. We have a right to vote with our dollars, and spread the word thru email, conversation, petition, etc. To suggest otherwise is un-American.

[hsteimer]

VERY GOOD REPLY!!!!!

I HOPE EVERYONE READS IT!!!!