Start paying for OSX again.

[kettle]

All I want is a little reward for supprting OSXBeta (10.0 - 10.1.5) all this time.

OS 10.2, I hope, will be the first fully usable version. To be honest, I think that's what I have already paid for. Is cost of disks and shipping too much to ask.

Don't even get me started on what hardware I could buy to run it on.

It makes me feel like the hope and good will I have for all things Apple has been shoved back as surpless to requirement.

The thing is, I think they know that however much they charge, I'll pay it, eventually.

:(

[Mr Jobs]

Originally posted by kettle
All I want is a little reward for supprting OSXBeta (10.0 - 10.1.5) all this time.

OS 10.2, I hope, will be the first fully usable version. To be honest, I think that's what I have already paid for. Is cost of disks and shipping too much to ask.

Don't even get me started on what hardware I could buy to run it on.

It makes me feel like the hope and good will I have for all things Apple has been shoved back as surpless to requirement.

The thing is, I think they know that however much they charge, I'll pay it, eventually.

:(

Come on people stop complying think of os x as $258 you just paid it in two half, $129 for 10.0 and $129 for 10.2 and windows XP cost $200 (full not upgrade). $58 more then windows for the greatest operating system in the world, come on don’t be such a scrooge. Plus think of all the other apps you get with it iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, iSync, iCal you get the point. Just these apps alone are worth way more the $258.

So please people stop complying about the price Apple have to make money and cover the developing cost of not only OS X but the all the other iapp that come with it too. XP is nowhere near as good as that believe me I use both in my house, ever used their free movie application ‘Movie Maker’, haha what a waste of hard drive space.

Plus you pay a bit more for your apple hardware and in return you get a quality piece of hardware, the same can be said for apple software. Now stop complying and start enjoying OS X.

[iGav]

Originally posted by kettle
All I want is a little reward for supprting OSXBeta (10.0 - 10.1.5) all this time.

OS 10.2, I hope, will be the first fully usable version. To be honest, I think that's what I have already paid for. Is cost of disks and shipping too much to ask.

Don't even get me started on what hardware I could buy to run it on.

It makes me feel like the hope and good will I have for all things Apple has been shoved back as surpless to requirement.

The thing is, I think they know that however much they charge, I'll pay it, eventually.

:(

My oh my.... we do need cheering up don't we!!! :)

[skyhawk]

I agree with kettle. As for mr. jobs, Stop "complying?" What the heck does that mean? Maybe you mean stop complaining, who knows? I've never heard of such ridiculous reasons why we should just fork out $130 (again!). I really hope that the people who say there's no reason to complain got out of the group home. I hope you're captured soon before you injure yourself. The only thing that will make me stop COMPAINING is if I get $130 fall out of the sky.

[Foocha]

I'm certainly going to pay for a copy of 10.2 - the price doesn't seem unreasonable to me, or at least it's consistent with previous pricing. I found it more shocking that Apple charged full price for OS 9 - it was essentially just OS 7 dressed up a bit.

With 10.2 you're getting a lot more. I'm especially looking forward to being able to browse Windows networks - and the multi-threaded finder will be worth the price alone.

I'm not suprised that people are moaning - there were a lot of very unrealistic posts on this forum in the past month - it was obvious some people were going to be in for a shock.

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by skyhawk
I agree with kettle. As for mr. jobs, Stop "complying?" What the heck does that mean? Maybe you mean stop complaining, who knows? I've never heard of such ridiculous reasons why we should just fork out $130 (again!). I really hope that the people who say there's no reason to complain got out of the group home. I hope you're captured soon before you injure yourself. The only thing that will make me stop COMPAINING is if I get $130 fall out of the sky.

Boy, there's a nice bit of irony for you. See, I do have a nice grownup life out there in the real world. I have this thing called a "job," and one of the perks to it is that WAY MORE than $130 falls right out of the sky into my savings account every two weeks.

Incidentally, I write software for a living, and the only reason these little cash storms continue on such a regular basis is that PEOPLE FSCKING PAY FOR THE SOFTWARE I WRITE.

Jeez, what is with you kids? People need money. People make things. Things cost money. Get over it.

[Sun Baked]

Whatever happened to the Mac OS X Maintenance Program for volume licenses?

http://www.macrumors.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=5835&highlight=Maintenance+Program

Apple is offering a new program that will provide users of Mac OS X the opportunity to receive major releases of the company's industrial strength operating system over a three year period. The Program, which will apply to Mac OS X exclusively and not OS X Server, will allow customers to receive future upgrades to the OS as part of the agreement...

Number of Users Retail price per seat...
10-99 US $69 per year (Three-year total: $207)...
100-999 $59 per year (Three-year total: $177)...
*1000+ $49 per year (Three-year total: $147)...

*Note: Orders of 1000 units or more must be made directly with Apple.

Further information may be obtained by contacting your Apple representative or by calling 800-747-7483.

[AlphaTech]

Actually, IF you wanted to go from win2k to winheXPee you have to pay $200. There are less improvements there then from 10.1 to 10.2. :p

I do think that people that purchased 10.1 and/or a system that shipped with 10.1.x SHOULD get 10.2 for less then the $129. That has been what the software coupons included with systems and the OS have been for in the past.

[Draft]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Actually, IF you wanted to go from win2k to winheXPee you have to pay $200. There are less improvements there then from 10.1 to 10.2. :p

I do think that people that purchased 10.1 and/or a system that shipped with 10.1.x SHOULD get 10.2 for less then the $129. That has been what the software coupons included with systems and the OS have been for in the past.

I agree. Why not give it as an upgrade price of $50-80. I'd gladly pay that. It's hard to pay 129 for 10.2 when I just bought a Mac 2 months ago. I will pay 129 for 10.2 if I have to, but it's the principle of it.

Although it's true that 10.2 will be like $258 and Win XP is only $200, Win XP is and over-priced piece of ****. 10.2 is going to be a quality OS that, in my opinion, is not going to be worth $258.

And another thing, I thought that one of the reasons for the hardware prices being quite a bit more then PC's is that you are absorbing the cost of the quality software that comes with the machine, along with the machine itself. Apple either needs to get their asses in gear and get their computer specs up-to-par with other computer companies, or start realizing that to pay $258 for an OS is over-priced. I know that part of the problem is the chip manufacturers, but Apple should be pushing them to increase speeds faster then they currently are. Also, where's DDR ram? How long has DDR ram been available for PCs?

Weak Apple. Weak.


Draft

[alex_ant]

I agree that the $129 with no upgrade price of OS X.2 sucks, but if you befriend a local college student, you can get it for $69... :)

[AmbitiousLemon]

I really dont understand people who complain about the price of 10.2. you people must live in some sort of fantasy land. you think you bought 10.0 over a year ago and that entitles you to free upgrades for life or something?

this is a huge upgrade very much worth the cost.

apple has been giving us free updates for a very long time now, it is high time they actually made some money off all their hard (and expensive work).

i relaly do wonder how long all of you have been using computers. paying for a new version of an operating system is nothing unusual. but you know what is unusual? a company giving away free upgrades including a major .x upgrade for well over a year. that is what apple has been doing since osx came out. pouring millions into r&d and giving you the product for free.

ou act like apple owes you a living ro something. no one is forcing you to upgrade. if you do not think 10.2 is worth such a small cost then by all means stick with 10.1. expecting apple to keep giving everything away for free is just plain stupid and childish. apple made no promises that 10.2 would be free, in fact all indications pointed to 10.2 be a paid (and very expensive) upgrade. if you ignored all reason and bought a new mac or 10.0 expecting apple to give you free upgrades for life then you are a fool.

there has been more stupidity following this macworld than ever before. complaining about itools/.mac, no new powermacs, paid upgarde for 10.2, itunes3. what kind of fantasy land do you peopel live in where apple should make great stuff all the time and as long as you paid for something with an apple on it once you deserve free stuff or great discounts for life? wake up!

[Durandal7]

Would it make you all feel better if Apple released 10.2 3 months later and called it 10.5? I don't see what the big deal is, 10.1 wasn't a full price upgrade. Look at 10.0 and 10.2, 10.2 has come a long way. I think that a full price upgrade every year is fine. Besides $129 is pretty damn inconsequential in the long run :rolleyes:

[sageenos]

Does anyone know when new computers will start shipping with 10.2?

[AlphaTech]

This is for you too AL...

I am NOT asking for a free OS X update (to 10.2). I just feel that the people that went out and paid FULL retail for 10.1 AND/OR picked up a system that shipped with at least 10.1.4 SHOULD get 10.2 for less then the $129. People that got the free or cheap update to 10.1 should pay the full retail. Apple can easily tell who those people are by the Software Coupons that came with their systems or OS X (10.1).

What is the point of including those coupons if they don't do you ANY good????

[AmbitiousLemon]

ah ive missed you too Alph.

i am forced to wonder how long you have used computers. doesnt sound like its been long, because this is nothing new. 129$ for a full os is dirt cheap. this is less than windows charges for their 'upgrade.' there is no reason you should think that because you bought a apple computer in the past or you bought os10 in the past that you deserve a discount on the only paid upgrade apple has ever charged. sure if apple did offer 10.2 free or at a discount for those of us who recently bought a new computer or a retail box of 10 that would be cool, but apple doesnt owe it to you. complaining that a company isnt giving you something free or at a special discount is just really stupid. the fact that you cant hear how strange it sounds really confuses me. 'how dare they charge ME full price? who do they think they are? greedy bastards they should give ME a discount or offer it for free."

when os9 came out you didnt hear 8.6 owners complaining that they didnt get a free or discounted upgrade. what is special about osx that makes you think apple shoudl be obligated to offer discounts? just because they gave away 10.1 for free they should give every sucessive upgrade away for free? i am sorry, we all like free stuff and we all like getting discounts but it doesnt always happen and apple doesnt owe us anything. purchase their products or dont its up to you, they sell things, thats what they do. if when you bought your 800mhz powerbook you were under the impression that apple would give you 10.2 at any sort fo discount then you were not in touch with reality. i am sorry but that has NEVER happened in the past. perhaps this is your first computer and you didnt know how upgrades work but this is a pretty standard upgarde as far as apple goes. the only unusual thing about this upgrade is that apple gave the previous upgrade away for free (10.1).

[Backtothemac]

Look,
I paid 29 for the public beta. 129 for OS X. Got 10.1 for FREE! 10.2 is completely different. If they called it OS XI would you feel any better. It is so different it is not even the same. Get over it. If you bought 10 - 10.1, then you knew what you were getting. Yea, it had some flaws, but it is stable as hell, and rocks in my opinion.

I will pony up the 129 for 10.2

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Look,
I paid 29 for the public beta. 129 for OS X. Got 10.1 for FREE! 10.2 is completely different. If they called it OS XI would you feel any better. It is so different it is not even the same. Get over it. If you bought 10 - 10.1, then you knew what you were getting. Yea, it had some flaws, but it is stable as hell, and rocks in my opinion.

I will pony up the 129 for 10.2

nice to someone being level headed.

[AlphaTech]

Alright AL...

I have been using computers for only about 24 years now. I have been using Mac systems for 14 years, and I have owned one since '97. The first one came with 7.5.1 and I got a free upgrade to 7.6. I updated to 8, 8.1, 8.5, 8.6 ($20 update from 8.x), 9 (first week it came out I purchased it). I got OS 9.x and OS 10.x with my first TiBook, then I went out and paid the full retail price for 10.1 (didn't want to wait for an update with the coupons).

With all the updates I have done over the years, systems I have purchased (Mac clone, G4 500MHz (APG), PB Lombard, PB Pismo, PBG4 500MHz, and now PBG4 800MHz) and support I have shown Apple I don't think that a reduced price update to 10.2 is out of the question.

In the past, the Software Coupons included with both systems and software have allowed you to update to the next full release of the operating system for a reduced price. Since Apple included those coupons with my latest PBG4 system, I should be able to use them to get OS X 10.2 for less then the retail price. THAT is reasonable to ask.

BTW, I have NOT asked for 10.2 to be FREE... I would run to the store to get it for $20 or even $50.

[AmbitiousLemon]

support you have shown apple. what a joke. you people crack me up. you think apple owes you something because you bought one of their products. you arent 'supporting' apple. you purchased a product they offered for sale. its not like apple is a charity case and you out of the kindness of yoru heart donated money to them. they had a product for sale and you bought it. they dont oew you anything.

alph what are you on? you proved my point by listing off all the upgrades in the past. the minor ones have been offered at nominal prices. the large ones have had no upgrade route. purchasing a mac just before the release of something new did get an upgrade route (just like the $20 upgrade of today), but buying a previous os or buying a new computer several weeks before does not provide an upgarde route. i will say it again. the ONLY thing different about this upgrade is that the previous one (10.1) was free.

In the past, the Software Coupons included with both systems and software have allowed you to update to the next full release of the operating system for a reduced price. Since Apple included those coupons with my latest PBG4 system, I should be able to use them to get OS X 10.2 for less then the retail price. THAT is reasonable to ask.

sorry but this is wrong. those software coupons have NEVER given you a discount on a large release, only the smaller updates that have recently become free. perhaps you can think of it this way. in the past you would have used your coupons to upgrade from 10.1 to 10.1.5 at a small cost ($20). now those are offered free via software update and the only remaining updates (the big ones) just like before, are not offerred at any discount unless you recently purchased a machines (then is is $20). so you are not being reasonable at all.

those little coupons are really only for people who recently ordered a new computer. just because you have a bunch of old coupons does not mean anything, and that is no different than the past.

[AlphaTech]

Hey AL, does the protruding brow interfere with your vision much???

For the hundredth time I do NOT expect the 10.2 upgrade to be free... How many times do I have to say it before it sinks into that thick skull of yours??? They could easily extend the reduced upgrade cost to people that have purchased systems THIS YEAR (since MWSF). THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK, nor will it cut into their 'profits'. It would also be GREAT for their public relations, especially with them now charging for the previously free iTools accounts. On that count, 50% cost for the first year (to see if you want to keep it) is NOT outrageous. I will most likely pay for that, and then decide when the renew time comes along if I can justify the cost (if they put it to the $100 price).

10.1 was NOT free, unless you were lucky enough to get to a location that had a LIMITED number of free copies to hand out. People that had purchased 10.0 were able to upgrade for a reduced cost ($20 I believe). 10.0 to 10.1 WAS a significant upgrade, just as 10.1 to 10.2 is.

Something else, ALL of the OS X 10.1.x updates were available as FREE downloads. You did NOT need to use the coupons to update. BTW, I HAVE used the coupons that came with OS purchases to get the next update (non-minor one) for the $20.

Another thing, until OS X came along, the most you would ever have to pay for an OS from Apple was $100. Maybe if they kept the same price for OS X people wouldn't mind nearly as much.

[mozez]

ok, i have seen on this thread many people yelling that $258 for x and $200 for xp, well, time to add something to that. one, when ms releases service packs, they are free, like win2k sp2, they will even ship you a cd for free! beyond that, you can order the full os for around 120 if you look online, for xp pro that is. and if you bought a computer within a year, they will upgrade for $20, (compaq, dell, hp, not gateway) and you people seem to think that jaguar is a whole new os, it isn't, i'm using 6c98, and yes it has speed improvements, yes it has some graphic changes, but it's still 10, not anything like 9 to x was, this is a service pack, it fixes things, it puts what was supposed to be in the origanol x, in this release. see, most of what jaguar is, is what we who bought x the day it came out in support of apple thought it could do, but we got a beta os, not the one we were promised. when 9.1 came out, no charge, 9.2, no charge, so why the charge here, you guys think this is some cosmically huge upgrade that deserves full price, you wanna charge $20 and check my receit for osx, fine. see, only 20% of mac people are using osx, 20%, so it's safe to say that if not for those 20%, osx would have failed, maybe jobs should look at all of us beta testers of osx 10.1.5, the real one, not like jaguar beta versions, and realize the pain we have all gone through and the fact that we trusted apple's new direction and paid for it. so, no, 129 for a upgrade, it's a service pack people, A SERVICE PACK!!!!!!!!!

[mozez]

2k to xp, two completely different looking and running oses, sadly 2k is more stable, but you can't compare 10.1.5 to 10.2 as the same thing, nowhere close! this is not changing the entire os into something new, it's the same os. software, you want to charge for software, i hav no problem with this, but apple can't claim it comes with all this free software, cause really, that's what you are paying for, not the os, but the software, so sell it seperatly, all i want is the bug fixes to my mac that should have been there a year ago. see, jaguar, is x fixed. speed improvements, well, that's somebody fixing code that somebody else did wrong in the first place. the speed of jaguar should have been the speed of x.

k, i'm done now... let the bashing begin

[iH8Quark]

Sheesh...do you folks really think you're going to change anything, or make your respective predicaments any more tolerable by complaining so much? :rolleyes:

you sound like a knitting circle.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Hey AL, does the protruding brow interfere with your vision much???

For the hundredth time I do NOT expect the 10.2 upgrade to be free... How many times do I have to say it before it sinks into that thick skull of yours??? They could easily extend the reduced upgrade cost to people that have purchased systems THIS YEAR (since MWSF). THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK, nor will it cut into their 'profits'. It would also be GREAT for their public relations, especially with them now charging for the previously free iTools accounts. On that count, 50% cost for the first year (to see if you want to keep it) is NOT outrageous. I will most likely pay for that, and then decide when the renew time comes along if I can justify the cost (if they put it to the $100 price).

10.1 was NOT free, unless you were lucky enough to get to a location that had a LIMITED number of free copies to hand out. People that had purchased 10.0 were able to upgrade for a reduced cost ($20 I believe). 10.0 to 10.1 WAS a significant upgrade, just as 10.1 to 10.2 is.

Something else, ALL of the OS X 10.1.x updates were available as FREE downloads. You did NOT need to use the coupons to update. BTW, I HAVE used the coupons that came with OS purchases to get the next update (non-minor one) for the $20.

Another thing, until OS X came along, the most you would ever have to pay for an OS from Apple was $100. Maybe if they kept the same price for OS X people wouldn't mind nearly as much.

is it possible you are really this stupid? hm. perhaps. i will try to be patient with you. first go back and read my post (yes the whole things). then when you realize what a fool you have made of yourself go back and edit your post to remove the personal insults. now that you have actually read my post you will see i very clearly understood you wanted a discount.

apple always charges full price for these kinds of upgrades. this is what you are misssing. im surprised someone who ahs owned as many macs as yourself doesnt yet understand apple's pricing. major upgardes of this sort are always full price unless someone bought a computer very recently. take for example 8.6 to 9.0. this is teh way it ahs always been. the coupons? (you seem obssessed with your coupons, i dont think its helathy) are for people who bought a computer recently. they get to upgrade for $20.

apple has given us free upgrades and updates (even you were m$ you would call them service packs) since 10.0 over a year ago. 10.1 which would normally have been a paid upgrade was given out free (if you did not know this and went and paid full price that is your fault not apple's). it is unreasonable to think that apple owes you anything.

and it is also unreasonable to personally insult someone on these forums, especially if you have not even read their post. before you rant about how dumb someone is perhaps you should read what they wrote. this seems to be a big problem of yours alph. you taken people without reading or understanding what they ahve written. if you are so inpatient that you can not read a short reply, then dont bother replying yourself. do not read two lines and assume you know what the person said, time and again you have appeared teh fool because you have not read or understood what someone wrote.

[Draft]

I totally agree with AlphaTech. Apple should give a reduced price upgrade for those that bought 10.1.x within the last few months. No major discount, just something for their support.

Also, for the record, I think that AmbitiousLemon is an idiot.

That is all.

Draft

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by mozez
and you people seem to think that jaguar is a whole new os, it isn't, i'm using 6c98, and yes it has speed improvements, yes it has some graphic changes, but it's still 10, not anything like 9 to x was, this is a service pack, it fixes things, it puts what was supposed to be in the origanol x, in this release. see, most of what jaguar is, is what we who bought x the day it came out in support of apple thought it could do, but we got a beta os, not the one we were promised.
Nothing was like from 9 to X except maybe the original Mac OS. You won't see anything that drastic for another 10 years. I thought that 9 was so similar to 8.6 that I never got it until I bought OS X. Look at 7.6 to 8 or 6 to 7. Never in Apple history was there that major an overhaul and you can't expect them to grind one out every year.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
is it possible you are really this stupid? hm. perhaps. i will try to be patient with you. first go back and read my post (yes the whole things). then when you realize what a fool you have made of yourself go back and edit your post to remove the personal insults.

and it is also unreasonable to personally insult someone on these forums, especially if you have not even read their post. before you rant about how dumb someone is perhaps you should read what they wrote.

You really should follow your own advise... Also, learn how to put capitalization into your posts... Makes it a LOT easier to read when you can at least see some kind of sentence structure. You could also read over your posts, to correct all of those typo's that permeate them.

BTW, YOU are the one that keeps going on and on and on and on about the free part...

To constantly ask people to pay for updates that are mostly either bug fixes, or adding features that should have been there in the first place is more then a bit harsh. Even m$ doesn't do that. Even they offer updates from one OS to a newer one at less then full cost. It also doesn't matter if your system came with the OS, or you went out and purchased it seperately to put on one you built.

Again (and for the FINAL time), Apple could EASILY extend the upgrade price to people that have purchased systems since MWSF, or even MW Tokyo (a measly 5 months prior to 10.2 ships and about 2 weeks before 10.2 was announced at the WWDC). Again, it WOULD do a hell of a lot more for their public relations at this point to do something along those lines. Apple has pissed off more then a few people with what they are now charging for.

Not everyone has a business, or way to recoup the costs of the OS updates and such. IF I was a business, I would't care, but I am not, so I do. :p

[Foocha]

Try to be nice to each other guys.

10.0 was not a complete OS - it was unstable, and there was limited software support. It would have been totally unreasonable to charge 10.0 owners for it.

10.1 is very usable - from my experience it's faster and more reliable than previous Mac OS's. The 10.1.X updates were clearly intended to patch up 10.1 so that Apple could justify a full price update with 10.2.

I think that part of the confusion here is arising from a change in Apple's naming scheme. System 7 was released in 1992, and no further numeric updates were released until 1997, with the release of Mac OS 8 (not the change in naming scheme). This lengthly delay was the result of the failure of the Copland project. In fact, Mac OS 8 was fairly indistiguishable from System 7 - the main difference was the introduction of limited TCP/IP support and the Platinum GUI which had been intended for Copland. Mac OS 8.5 was another paid for upgrade released one year later, with some GUI fixes and little else. Mac OS 9 was released two years later - again it was hardly worthy of a new number, especially when you consider the radical changes that System 7 went through over it's 5 year life without getting a new name.

Apple had accelerated the rate of OS releases in the late 90's because it was a cheap way of generating revenue. This combined with the fact that they wanted to call the new BSD based OS "Mac OS X" is what led them to naming Mac OS 8.7 Mac OS 9.

Now that X is out of the starting gate, I believe Apple is going to stick with 10 for a long time (as they did with 7). This is because they're using the 10/X to indicate the new BSD OS. The point increases are no less significant that updates like OS 9 was to OS 8.6, and the up-to-date programme applies now just as always - to Mac purchasers who purchase their Mac after the new OS is announce, and prior th machines shipping with it preinstalled.

If you got to the end of this posting - thanks for your time, and I hope it made sense!

[AlphaTech]

Hey Foocha, I guess you completely forgot about 7.5 and 7.6 (not to mention the .1's in there). :rolleyes: Let's also not forget about 8.1, 8.5, 8.6 either.

As for OS X 10.0, there were also updates of that to FIX the bugs, with it ending around 10.0.4. 10.1 was supposed to be a major update, even though Apple did release it for free (to a few lucky people) or for $20 (for those that wanted JUST the OS install, not the developers tools).

As for charging for 10.2, I see it a bad customer relations move, especially with them announcing that the iTools is now a pay feature. IF they had spaced it out a bit, it would have softened the blow/impact enough that people wouldn't think as much about it. But, with SJ announcing both in the same keynote, it was a bad move.

How would you feel if you took the car you purchased about 6 months ago in for service and they told you that in order for them to install a replacement part that will give you better gas mileage as well as activate several features that have been sitting dormant (due to the part not being installed yet), you will have to pay $x00?? People would be ********* over that.

[voicegy]

Geesh, let's rip our small community to shreds (and I don't just mean the guys and gals at MacRumors, but the Mac community at large) over relatively small amounts of dollars.

Get real, think about whatever else you're into besides Macs and related things. Motocycles. Antiques. Rare books. Exotic plants. Any other hobby or what-have-you I can think of. None of us would BLINK at dropping a premium amount of money on something that adds to our joy of life.

While others may see that my spending 150 bucks on a rare Kraftwerk vinyl album that glows in the dark as OUTRAGEOUS, it happens to not sting me because it's something I want, I know it works well, it looks great, and my percieved value of it and in the eyes of others involved in the collection of such things is higher than the amount paid anyway.

Is a hundred bucks really that much?! When I was a just out of high school droid, I'd drop 30 bucks worth of quarters on video games to while away an afternoon, and I worked at flippin' Burger King.

I know you can't draw an EXACT corollary with what I'm trying to say above, but we're talking about something much bigger here. There's many programmers with mouths to feed at home that worked their collective butts off to bring this work of art, this thing of beauty to the masses. They put out a beta, then a few more upgrades, and add and subtract according to inside decisions and CUSTOMER feedback. Operating System software is a living beast, and is at the heart of any personal computer. Apple believes that this is their Rolls Royce..and packed it with "i" this and "i" that to make it even more attractive, not to mention upgrades to all those OTHER "i" software packages that were GIVEN away (iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto) what, you think those things were thrown together over a weekend and didn't cost anything?

Then little Apple (yeah, 4 billion in the bank in cash reserves, I know, I know...) that started in a friggin' garage, was almost destroyed in the mid '90's, had a goal to reach people like us who "get it", that has surprised and delighted us, filled us with pride, given us outstanding examples of marriages of art and science and I could go on and on and on about our favorite company on Earth (next to Harley-Davidson and Bang & Olufsen wink wink nod nod) and what a fun relationship it has been and the community has the GALL to FLIP OUT COMPLETELY about forking over what amounts to a few trips to the ATM or the amount of flippin' Starbucks coffee some of us drink over a couple of months.

Is this the generation of GIMME GIMME speaking here? The same people who BELIEVE that artists who create shouldn't be appropriately compensated for their craft? Downloading movies and music without paying a cent for it, believing that the world owes them whatever they can get for nothing.

You know who I think of as I go over all this in my mind? The guys and gals behind the scenes who brought OS X The Latest Version to fruition. Those greedy jerk-offs who work from 10 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon 4 days a week and all drive hot cars and still aren't satisfied? No...I'm talking about the people who worked overtime to get us this far, going home to the wife and the kid(s) and saying "Honey, it seems the community doesn't put value to our work...sometimes I feel that its all for nothing."

The price is set. Scream and yell and blabber about it all you want. Or go over to the PeeCee world. Or at least find a buddy in the education biz and get a discount that way. Or just go ahead and steal it...Apple deserves that after all, don't they?

Flame away...I know I'm pretty out of character with this particular post, but I'm thankful for the opportunity to soap-box...and after all, it's just MY opinion.

[Marianco]

Apple's software updates are a lot cheaper than Windows. Windows XP Pro Update costs $179 at Costco ($199 list). And this is not even the full version, which is closer to $300.

You have to realize that OS Companies have to make revenue each year for their product, through updates. Apple is included.

If you bought Microsoft Windows XP and never updated again, Microsoft would never make money off of you after the initial purchase. This would be death to Microsoft since the computer industry is maturing from a growth industry into a replacement industry (where things are replaced only when worn out, such as TVs). Thus Microsoft is turning Windows into a subscription service, where you have to pay each year to continue using the OS. And, you have to pay Microsoft for each PC you want to update.

Apple at least doesn't have per-seat fees. Thus if you have 5 PCs and 5 Macs in your home, the cost of upgrading your OS is as follows:

Mac OS X times 5 Macs = $129
Windows XP Pro times 5 PCs = $199 times 5 = $995.

Apple's fee for Mac OS X is very reasonable.

[nuckinfutz]

Great use of common sense!

Funny how people that whine and complain about the Price of Mac OS never mention stuff like this. Nor do they mention that Apple doesn't come down on Mac users for selling their OLD OS' on eBay. Search today and you'll see lot's of 10.x version for 40.00 and up. Since Apple offers FULL CDS purchasing and installing these are easy because no Serial number is needed. Only BSD/Linux is cheaper to deploy than Apple and they're missing out on lot's of stuff like Quicktime and other Apple only Tech.

[Hemingray]

I, for one, will not be purchasing 10.2 because not only of the cost, but because my hardware isn't even supported for "Quartz Extreme". I'm just going to wait until I see some new PowerMacs worth buying. By then 10.2 will be bundled and I will get it as part of the cost of the new computer. I think I can wait that long... after all, I've been waiting for about two years now to upgrade my tower, what's another year? :rolleyes:

[Foocha]

I may be wrong, but with the exception of 7.5, I don't remember any of the System 7 point updates being paid for updates.

The point I'm trying to make is that I believe Apple has now decided to make point updates (with a funny name like "Jaguar" for marketing reasons) rather than numeric updates from now on, so that they can stick with the number 10. This in no way means that the updates are less significant or worth paying for than the update from 8.6 to 9.

[kansaigaijin]

I paid full retail (¥14,800) for 10.1
I didn't need it, I could have waited for waited for the polished version, but I liked the multi-language support. Couldn't use a nearly new printer etc, had to boot into the 9.x that came with the computer to do that.

"Software companies need to make money"

Apple is a hardware co. I don't want iChat etc, I think they are getting into M$ territory and should leave the add-ons stuff to developers, why would anyone develop for MacOS anymore apple just keeps taking their space. I don't even want stupid spring loaded folders!

They are just adding on a lot of crap to justify charging again for what we should have got in the first place, which was a reasonably fast, functional OS.

I completely agree with Alpha, $50 would be reasonable for those that paid retail for 10.1 or bought a system since 10.1 came out.

[groovebuster]

Even I disagree very often with Alpha on a lot of things, but on this subject I fully agree with him. It is plain rediculous that Appke is not offering a decent upgrade path for the previous users of MacOS X.

OK, Mac OS X is pretty stable, but it lacks a lot of features so far that makes working with it is a pain in the *ss. 10.2 is finally giving us the features we were promised since the beginning when the first ß came out.

Let me tell you that I bought a 10.1 for my Wallstreet this February, since I wanted to be on the same Level OS wise with the rest of my machines. On the Apple website it said that the Wallstreet is supported by MacOS X. You can't imagine how mad I was when I found out what they consider "supported"! :(

It runs on the Wallstreet, no question about it, but it's useless:

1. SCSI doesn't work!
2. ADB doesn't work!
3. FloppyDrive (an original Apple part!) doesn't work!
4. No hardware acceleration for the ATI graphics chip since no drivers are available, so the GUI is slooooooow like a snail!
5. Serial port is not supported!
6. Mirroring of monitors doesn't work

And I didn't know that since Apple didn't mention at all any of those issues, making me buying an OS that is totally useless on that machine! I can't do anything with the PowerBook except working on the network... at least the CD-Drive still works. But what's the point, when the GUI is slow like hell and uses almost all of the processor power??? Just moving the mouse is using about 20% of the processor.

That was the first time I was really mad about Apple. They could have told me before that my Wallstreet is supported but it doesn't make sense to run MacOS X on it because of the reasons mentioned above! But they just wanted to make money! That is not the correct behaviour towards a customer.

But besides that MacOS 10.1 is far from being a "finished" OS you can work with. Networking is not working properly and to connect to another Mac is so sloooooow. Printer support sucks big time, the GUI is slow in general, etc... pp... All things that an user needs every day when using a computer. I am working a lot with with Audio apps. I still boot in MacOS 9 to do that. And why? Almost no Audio apps available so far. And that isn't the fault of the software companies, it is because the so badly needed audio core is not implemented in MacOS X so far. For me MacOS X 10.2 is finally a version that deserves to be called a 100% alternative to MacOS 9, but to charge the people who used it before the full price, paying already for an unfinished product isn't part of a good CRM. Without all the early adopters, giving the feedback needed to improve the MacOS X to a real competitive OS it would have flopped badly.

I am self-employed myself and to just state that it is the way business goes to charge my customers in any way I like to doesn't work on the long run. The customers pay me for something I'm doing for them. He's basing his decision on comparison to other competitors in the market. And that's involving also customer support. If I would charge them for a product I delivered already with flaws the full price again, without even warning them before, just to give them finally what they ordered once, I am pretty sure that next time they would do the business with someone else.

Apple is a business, of course! But also a business should be run with at least a little bit thankfulness to loyal customers. Without all the pro users sticking with Apple also in bad times that company wold be history already. If they really start to forget that and only do decisions based on "cold numbers" in the future, there will be no loyality in the future anymore also by the users, they also will base their decisons just on economical facts. And if Apple will survive that with the given products they offer? I highly doubt it!

What made Apple survive all the years was that feeling of a "community" of Apple users, the pilosophy of "Think different!". It changes slowly into "as different as we have to be to gain maximum profit".

If that difference gets lost now I see hard times for Apple in the future coming up. I feel a little bit betrayed and this is more a feeling in the stomach than pure rational. For us Mac lovers it was always more than rational to use Macs and Apple was cultivating that feeling all the time. That's what made Apple survive.

I don't expect to get an update like that for free, but the full price for everyone is a slap in the face. Unfortunately I need the Update and therefore I have to buy it no matter what. This is exactly what Apple knows... the people really need the update and they take advantage of it. I don't know why Apple is spoiling it always just when it seems that they get out of the mud...

The hardware is on top of that, but already discussed enough in other threads.

groovebuster

[Foocha]

I've been using OS X 10.1 since it came out, and I can honestly say that I could *never* go back to using OS 9 again - I'd rather use Windows XP.

10.1 is already a substantially better product than OS 9. And 10.2 will take it to a whole new level.

10.2 offers functionality beyond 10.1 and way beyond 9. It would be wrong to describe it as a bug fix, and as such I can see no reason why it should be free.

I don't recall OS 9 or 10.1 offering Active Directory support and Windows network browsing. That's no bug fix - that's significant new functionality. If you don't need the new features, and don't want to pay, stick with 10.1.

[AmbitiousLemon]

i dont see any people who feel jipped by apple who are actually thinking logically. that alone is the single biggest thing that stands out to me about all of this.

we have lots of people who think it should be free. completely ridiculous. then we have folks thinking that they deserve a discount. guess what? there is an upgrade path, and it is the same as has been used by apple in the past.

we all knew jaguar would come out in 'late summer' (=august/sepetember) and yet knowing this people like alph seemed to think they would be able to get a discount when they purchased months before the release of jaguar. this is just like buying a brand new computer right before a mw. it sucks. i feel sorry for you, but you screwed up and made a bad decision that was a result of poor planning on your part. apple is providing an upgrade path (something so many of your ignore), what seems o bother you is that you did not fit into the time frame for the path. one or two months is all you should have expected from apple, because this is what they have done in the past. expecting more is simply poor judgement on your part. the poor decision was your own not apple's.

groov. the wallstreet is the slowest mac that fits apple's 'supported' guidelines, and you have heard people complain about how slow osx is for many months and yet you made the decision to buy. i can very well beleive that osx was not very good on your wallstreet, i had the same impression of osx on my lombard, but again this was merely a poor decision on your part. you took the oldest most obsolete piece of computer and installed an os witha reputation for being slow on new machines, you should have known what you were getting into. all the issues you mentioned were well known and well discussed on apple's website as well as on most mac sites around the web. you made a poor decision, and yes it sucks but you cant blame apple for that. i know that when i get something new and if even the smallest thing is wrong i am very upset. i expect perfection, and when i dont get it im pissed. that is the reaction i see from you now. you are angry and not reacting logically. itunes3 has been giving me all kinds of problems but im not going to rage against apple about it.

o and btw, if you want that hardware acceleration on your wallstreet there is a lil hack to enable it, message me if you want to try.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by voicegy
Get real, think about whatever else you're into besides Macs and related things. Motocycles. Antiques. Rare books. Exotic plants. Any other hobby or what-have-you I can think of. None of us would BLINK at dropping a premium amount of money on something that adds to our joy of life.

We are talking about a tool, not a stamp collection, right?

Originally posted by voicegy
I know you can't draw an EXACT corollary with what I'm trying to say above, but we're talking about something much bigger here. There's many programmers with mouths to feed at home that worked their collective butts off to bring this work of art, this thing of beauty to the masses. They put out a beta, then a few more upgrades, and add and subtract according to inside decisions and CUSTOMER feedback. Operating System software is a living beast, and is at the heart of any personal computer. Apple believes that this is their Rolls Royce..and packed it with "i" this and "i" that to make it even more attractive, not to mention upgrades to all those OTHER "i" software packages that were GIVEN away (iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto) what, you think those things were thrown together over a weekend and didn't cost anything?

I couldn't care less for the iApps. None of them helps me to get my work done. They are consumer oriented. I wouldn't mind if they wouldn't come with the OS, if the OS would be better then.

Originally posted by voicegy
Is this the generation of GIMME GIMME speaking here? The same people who BELIEVE that artists who create shouldn't be appropriately compensated for their craft? Downloading movies and music without paying a cent for it, believing that the world owes them whatever they can get for nothing.

No, it is the people speaking who think that being ripped by the company we made survive all the years is not OK. Did I get my OS X for free before? I don't think so. I BOUGHT it! So they got already my money for it. Now it is their turn to meet the promises they made all the time and charging me again for the beta-testing I did for them all the months.

Originally posted by voicegy
You know who I think of as I go over all this in my mind? The guys and gals behind the scenes who brought OS X The Latest Version to fruition. Those greedy jerk-offs who work from 10 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon 4 days a week and all drive hot cars and still aren't satisfied? No...I'm talking about the people who worked overtime to get us this far, going home to the wife and the kid(s) and saying "Honey, it seems the community doesn't put value to our work...sometimes I feel that its all for nothing."

:D You start to make fun, huh? :D

The same they demand I do as a loyal user! He wouldn't have a job anymore if I wouldn't have paid for his beta-software all the time. Now that he finally made it to deliver something that WORKS he can't just come up and tell me: "Thanks for beta-testing my stuff, if you wonna have the final product please pay the full prrice again now!"

Originally posted by voicegy
The price is set. Scream and yell and blabber about it all you want. Or go over to the PeeCee world. Or at least find a buddy in the education biz and get a discount that way. Or just go ahead and steal it...Apple deserves that after all, don't they?

I think I don't have to comment this! :mad:

Originally posted by voicegy
Flame away...I know I'm pretty out of character with this particular post, but I'm thankful for the opportunity to soap-box...and after all, it's just MY opinion.

Of course it is your opinion... and I think it is wrong!

groovebuster

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Foocha
I don't recall OS 9 or 10.1 offering Active Directory support and Windows network browsing. That's no bug fix - that's significant new functionality. If you don't need the new features, and don't want to pay, stick with 10.1.

Nobody wants it for free... show me one peson in this thread who said that!

groovebuster

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon

groov. the wallstreet is the slowest mac that fits apple's 'supported' guidelines, and you have heard people complain about how slow osx is for many months and yet you made the decision to buy. i can very well beleive that osx was not very good on your wallstreet, i had the same impression of osx on my lombard, but again this was merely a poor decision on your part. you took the oldest most obsolete piece of computer and installed an os witha reputation for being slow on new machines, you should have known what you were getting into. all the issues you mentioned were well known and well discussed on apple's website as well as on most mac sites around the web. you made a poor decision, and yes it sucks but you cant blame apple for that. i know that when i get something new and if even the smallest thing is wrong i am very upset. i expect perfection, and when i dont get it im pissed. that is the reaction i see from you now. you are angry and not reacting logically. itunes3 has been giving me all kinds of problems but im not going to rage against apple about it.

Oh and btw, if you want that hardware acceleration on your wallstreet there is a lil hack to enable it, message me if you want to try.

I knew it would be slow, but I considered it OK to do just some Office work with it and to transport files, etc... pp. I never expected it to be a mobile graphic workstation still (even it could still be one with MacOS 9). But that nothing of the hardware would be supported wasn't said by Apple and I think they are obliged to do so. The problem was discussed in the support area, that is true. But when Apple says a product is supported I expect that all the features are supported as well and if not that they tell me right away, before I spend the money and that I don't have to read several support and news groups to maybe find some issues before the purchase. That's my logic about something like that. I didn't expect MacOS X to be extraordinarily fast on my Wallstreet, but I didn't expect that it is even slower than it has to because of missing drivers and that I can't use any peripherals anymore.

I think we just have different opinions about that.

Besides that the hack would be highly appreciated! :) I heard about it before, but never had the time to get deeper into it, since I am running the Wallstreet almost all the time with MacOS 9 again. So if you could send me the instructions how to do that would be really cool, I would be really thankful! :) I bet it'as worth try. Is the speed increase noticeable?

groovebuster

[skyhawk]

Gelfin, dude, are you in a drunken stuper or what? Where is the irony? Maybe you read another post and pasted mine instead and tried desperately to make an arguement. You write software and you have a job and people need money. Well that explains everything! Now it makes sense. I'm going to place my order for jaguar, hey why stop there, I'll order one for you too. Just wait outside your door, I'll have brown deliver it to to asap. I'm glad you set me straight! After all, I'm just a kid that needs to grow up. O.k., quit reading and wait outside the door. Go, go, go on now!

[AlphaTech]

Hey lemon, HOW is purchasing the new TiBook within a few weeks of it coming out (MW Tokyo ya twit) poor planning??? I purchased the new TiBook because Apple finally got off their thumbs and put a decent video card inside of it.

You keep making yourself look like a corporate suck-up with statements like that...

You don't see me complaining about paying for 10.1 do you??? That is, unless you are viewing the world through beer goggles.

I never complained about purchasing the Mac OS before, mainly because it was reasonably priced at $100. While the extra $30 might not seem like much to some of you rich twits, for a lot of people it is enough to make them think twice. Especially when we also have a new QT6 Pro key to purchase, and the .mac account to pay for (only $50, but still it all adds up).

BTW, if I remember correctly, 10.1 was offered at a reduced rate for people that purchased systems that CAME with OS X on them. You had to get it from Apple, and wait until they shipped it to you, but it was at least offered.

I have a friend that might be able to make purchases at the educational price, since he works for a college. If possible, I will be getting it from him. Or maybe I will see if my sister can help me to get it for less then the $130 (she is a teacher).

[sturm375]

It's not the $129 that gets me. It's the $3500 I spent on a TiPB, that won't run QE. This TiPB is less than a year old (about 11 months at the time of 10.2 release), and when I bought it, it was the Mid-range. The only diference between the mid-range and high-end, was Airport, larger HD, and more RAM. I bought the Airport, Upgraded the HD and RAM, but I am still stuck with 8 MB of Video RAM, which isn't enough for QE.

Before buying I waited more than 3 months for 10.1 to come out, as soon as it did, I ordered. This is why I am pissed.


BTW:
10.2 = Service Pack (Bug Patch) = FREE everywhere else!


Question:
Do you suppose there will be some parallel updates ie: 10.2.1 and 10.1.7? or are we finished with 10.1.5:(

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by skyhawk
Gelfin, dude, are you in a drunken stuper or what? Where is the irony? Maybe you read another post and pasted mine instead and tried desperately to make an arguement. You write software and you have a job and people need money. Well that explains everything! Now it makes sense. I'm going to place my order for jaguar, hey why stop there, I'll order one for you too. Just wait outside your door, I'll have brown deliver it to to asap. I'm glad you set me straight! After all, I'm just a kid that needs to grow up. O.k., quit reading and wait outside the door. Go, go, go on now!

It's "stupor," and no I'm not. The irony is the part where you claim anybody who doesn't agree with you is retarded and needs to be kept away from the real world, a place where you yourself clearly do not live.

You're throwing a little tantrum, demanding that Apple work really hard to make something you want, and also demanding that they don't charge you any money for it. This isn't about some point of principle. This is about you wanting something for nothing. Apple has historically been very good about giving their customers various perks for free -- things that other vendors tend to charge for or not provide at all. And you just take that for granted and demand more. Apple needs money to pay for both work they've already done and work planned for the future. If they don't get that money from the people who benefit from the work they do, where would you suggest they get it?

The rest of your post makes absolutely no sense, and does absolutely nothing to change my opinion about you. In fact, I'm now pretty sure you're a lot younger than I had initially estimated. I tend to have too high expectations of people, I know, but I can't imagine anyone who has spent any length of time fully supporting himself having such a childish attitude.

If you really want this upgrade, fork out the cash. If you don't think it's worth the cash, don't do the upgrade. It's not a very difficult choice, and nobody's twisting your arm either way.

[kiwi_the_iwik]

Ahhh - how refreshing it is to see you folks playing nicely together...

...not.

Look at yourselves - you're tearing each other apart. Sure, everyone's got an opinion, and if you don't agree, well that's just fine. It's what our relatives fought for in the War - freedom of speech. Just don't take it so much to heart - it's not as if it's going to affect the world balance for chrissakes!

Anyway - I for one am going to wait a little while before I take the plunge and upgrade to OSX.2, because I want all of this smoke to blow over to see what Apple are going to do next (re: the price of Jaguar, and the demise of iTools).

I'd definitely upgrade if the price were right - since I'm on OS 10.1.5 at the moment, I feel that I should be entitled to the smaller upgrade path. After all - it's what all the new Macs have installed, and they get the small upgrade for a little under $20. Does that mean the disk I get will be the same upgrade disk supplied to the new Mac owners at the inflated price of £99? And what about those magical little vouchers you get when you buy your system software? What's the point of giving them to us with the previous incarnation of OSX when Apple had absolutely no intention of honouring them?

Oh well - I guess it beats talking about .mac...

:)

[Sun Baked]

Under Apple's old naming scheme it may have been MacOS 10.5, but those idiots said they had a tm for System 10 - and Apple spent a heck of a lot to equate Unix with OS X.

Wouldn't make sense to kill the name recognition before you have critical mass for OS X.

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Under Apple's old naming scheme it may have been MacOS 10.5, but those idiots said they had a tm for System 10 - and Apple spent a heck of a lot to equate Unix with OS X.

Wouldn't make sense to kill the name recognition before you have critical mass for OS X.

Thanks for noticing. I was beginning to think I was the only one. Apple really wants to keep the version numbers low because they want to keep "OS X" as a trademark. "X" does double duty as "ten" in the roman numeral sense, and also as the letter "X" as being traditionally representative of UNIX-based systems. "OS XI" would be a confusing and less powerful brand, and "OS X 11.0" would annoy the picky. So I've come to think it's reasonable to assume that the major version number will remain "10" for the forseeable future, while the minor version number actually represents a major release of OS X, and the tertiary number represents a minor OS X revision level. This is actually consistent with what they've done so far. 10.1 was a major upgrade, and 10.1.x releases are service updates through Software Update (which are, in fact, always free).

10.2 is a major update both under this numbering scheme and in practical terms. Any release wherein they replace the entire underpinnings of the GUI subsystem (as in the transition from Quartz to QE) cannot be regarded as merely a "bug fix." Even if Quartz were buggy (which I find it's not), patching it is a minor operation. Replacing it is not.

[sparkleytone]

the majority of the enhancements of OS X.2 are begun at the kernel level. kernel coding is probably the single most difficult, time consuming, and expensive forms of programming there are. the code must be perfect or else it will not work. then they had to put a working GUI on top of it using an engine that is fast, efficient, and user friendly. not an easy thing to do. look at linux, which hasn't been able to do it yet.

things like samba, ical, and rendezvous are reasons i have preordered my OS X.

that and the fact that i never really bought OS X in the first place, it came with my computer. I don't really count that.

[AlphaTech]

sturm375, which TiBook do you have?? If you have the rev. b, then you WILL be able to run QE (Apple is saying ANY Radeon card will do it, which the rev. b has, 16MB of it actually).

Even if you have the rev. a (400/500MHz) you will be able to run 10.2, it just won't run as fast compared to someone with a Radeon (or better) video card.

BTW, I am working on getting a copy of 10.2 at less then retail. ;) That's not to say I won't run out and get it from the Apple store instead of waiting for it, but I have to explore the different options first. If it ends up costing almost as much as the full retail after shipping and such, I will probably just cruise on up into NH and get it without paying sales tax. Yes, I won't send in the tax to MA... you hear that mcrain??? :p :p :D :D

[kiwi_the_iwik]

...How about just finding someone who has just bought a new Mac (or is about to), and buying the upgrade disk from them when they're finished installing it?

(it's a pity I don't know anyone out there whose about to buy a new Mac - perhaps anyone in that position might consider selling their upgrade disk on eBay?)

:D

[sturm375]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
sturm375, which TiBook do you have?? If you have the rev. b, then you WILL be able to run QE (Apple is saying ANY Radeon card will do it, which the rev. b has, 16MB of it actually).

Even if you have the rev. a (400/500MHz) you will be able to run 10.2, it just won't run as fast compared to someone with a Radeon (or better) video card.


Rev. A 500 MHz

8 MB Video. Everything else, should be find for 10.2

Unfortnuatly, there's not a damn thing anybody can do, it's just a dissappointment. The first Apple I buy, which I bought because of Apples reputation of long lasting hardware, is already too old for the next OS:(

[kaltsasa]

First off I am an Apple Lover Through and Through. Now that thats said, there are all very good arguments here. I work at a school and just 3 weeks ago we bought 200 licences for 10.1, even amidst a budget crisis. Now it seems that we are to pay full price for all these licences again if we want to use 10.2. I see no reason why this should be after we just plunked down a few grand to buy these licences. I'm not supporting Microsoft here but Microsoft doesn't charge everytime a service pack comes out. This priceing scheme is going to hurt apple in the long run. This new fiasco has just given our PC loving Administrator one more reason to tell us to go all PC's.....we don't want that to happen but if Apple continues to try and Milk every penny they can out of us we will be forced(willing or not) to switch to the dark side.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by sturm375
Rev. A 500 MHz

8 MB Video. Everything else, should be find for 10.2

Unfortnuatly, there's not a damn thing anybody can do, it's just a dissappointment. The first Apple I buy, which I bought because of Apples reputation of long lasting hardware, is already too old for the next OS:(

Your computer is NOT too old to run 10.2, you just won't get the speed BOOST from QE. :rolleyes: You guys need to read over the requirements again... Go here, (http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html) and you will see your TiBook as being able to run 10.2.

From the requirements page
Confirm that your hardware can run Mac OS X Version 10.2 Jaguar
Mac OS X Version 10.2 requires a Power Mac G3, G4, G4 Cube; iMac; PowerBook G3, G4; iBook; or eMac computer; at least 128MB of physical RAM and a built-in display or a display connected to an Apple-supplied video card. Mac OS X does not support the original PowerBook G3 or processor upgrade cards. Verify your hardware is supported from the list below.

[skyhawk]

I agreed with Kettle. Everything else about my age, my convictions, my employment status and demands on Apple were completely fabricated. If Apple doesn't make another piece of hardware or software or completely falls into the Pacifice or goes ENRON, it won't bother me a bit. I have made a choice. I choose not to pay for OS X again. Call in whinning, call it disloyal, call it cheap, call it what you like. But know this, neither you nor Janet Reno can make me cough up $130 and I can prove it to you starting now! If you and others don't like whinning, don't click on a forum that is obviously going to irritate you, unless you enjoy fabricating personallities, instead of writing software like you're supposed to be doing. But I sure hope your opinion of me is positive or I won't be able to sleep! Please All Knowing One, I'll believe in professional wrestling if you want me to! If I would have known before I made a post that it had to be approved by you, I would have never bothered. I got to go, I'm sure I'm missing something for nothing somewhere!

[voicegy]

Originally posted by kaltsasa
I work at a school and just 3 weeks ago we bought 200 licences for 10.1, even amidst a budget crisis. Now it seems that we are to pay full price for all these licences again if we want to use 10.2. I see no reason why this should be after we just plunked down a few grand to buy these licences.

I work for a school district and if I were in your situation I would be happy with what I have and go for it. Are you saying you cannot be productive with OS 10.1? Are you saying that without Jaguar you might as well toss all the computers in the junk heap and give up and go get some Gateways?

I honestly just don't get it. To be fair, perhaps I should ask: what in Jaguar do your teachers and students absolutely need in order to be productive in your studies? I'll bet no one would even know the difference nor care...as long as you are running software that fits in the curriculum.

[AlphaTech]

If we get some computer orders in after August 24th, and come with 10.2, I might just use that to install. ;)

That is something you should consider at the school as well... Whatever you get in for new systems after August 24th should come with 10.2, so just use that cd to install it onto the systems you need to.

[kaltsasa]

First off, we'd go get dells ;) But seriously, Ical is an app that people were looking forward to and requires10.2. Reading up on new applications and the immpressions that were given at Macworld Expo(we have people that went) are that more and more apps will be would be requiring 10.2. Jagaur is what the we in the Tech Dept were finally going to consider Upgrading the Macs to OS 10 from 9. 10.2 is an actually really usable OS by the entire school district. I'm not arguing that 10.2 isn't worth $129. I'm arguing that after buying that many 10.1's less then a month ago we should not be "forced" into buying 10.2 upgrades.

[kaltsasa]

But using that cd is illigal. Only the computers bought after Mac world expo will be licenced for Mac os 10.2. We here run a legal school, buying legal Licences. We do not want the wrath of Apple nor Microsoft to come down on us.

[koltz]

Originally posted by voicegy


I work for a school district and if I were in your situation I would be happy with what I have and go for it. Are you saying you cannot be productive with OS 10.1? Are you saying that without Jaguar you might as well toss all the computers in the junk heap and give up and go get some Gateways?

I honestly just don't get it. To be fair, perhaps I should ask: what in Jaguar do your teachers and students absolutely need in order to be productive in your studies? I'll bet no one would even know the difference nor care...as long as you are running software that fits in the curriculum.

Well I also work for a school district and I disagree with Apple. Are you the head of your department? Main reason I am asking, throughout the US, budgets are being cut because of enrollment, and less funds coming from the state and federal levels.

As for charging for 10.2, it is a point release. It may have a lot of features in the release, but still is a point release. We just bought 100 licenses of 10.x in June and 20 new iMac's also in June. So technically we don't qualify for a free upgrade. I do believe this is bad on Apple's part as they should have atleast informed us before hand and we would have waited until the 10.2 release was and then ordered.

As for why should we be happy with just 10.1 and not 10.2, well I have been reading a lot that there will be applications that will require 10.2, as you need 10.1 to run a lot of applications that don't work on 10. We currently still run 9, and next year we are looking at switching. We don't have money to fork out every year for a company that decides to do a minor upgrade. And if 10.2 is required for those specific applications, then we can't upgrade either to 10.2. Our district runs the same version of OS on all computers, so we won't just buy the new ones with 10.2 and leave the olds ones at 10.1.

I believe Apple is just being money hungry. As with repairs, most of the iMac's that we send in to get repaired cost atleast $300 to $400. For something that we paid $700 to $800 originally. They have a huge profit margain on the parts and service. They don't need to nickel and dime everybody for everything else.

Thanks,

Corey

[kaltsasa]

Exactly Koltz, Exactly.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by koltz
I believe Apple is just being money hungry. As with repairs, most of the iMac's that we send in to get repaired cost atleast $300 to $400. For something that we paid $700 to $800 originally. They have a huge profit margain on the parts and service. They don't need to nickel and dime everybody for everything else.

Apple repair charges a flat rate for systems that are out of warranty... Like those old iMac systems. The pricing is by the system, so it's not the same for the iMac as it is for an iBook or PowerBook or tower.

Didn't you guys get the Applecare plans with the computers??? He have been doing that for about two years now, and it has saved us on more then a few repairs. I for one, am glad I have it on my own home computers, since it has saved me more then it cost for the plan. One repair alone more then pays for the Applecare plan.

BTW, there is NOT a 'huge profit margain' on the parts, and they have to pay the repair tech's to do the work. I have tracked many a repair at Apple, and they spend, on average, three to four hours working on the system. Most computer repair shops charge well over $100/hour for repair work... Most of the parts that they repair/replace are also listed at ~$200-$300 (if not more) and that is to AASP's (with exchange as well). Suddenly a $300-$400 repair doesn't seem all that far out of line... :p

[sturm375]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


Your computer is NOT too old to run 10.2, you just won't get the speed BOOST from QE. :rolleyes: You guys need to read over the requirements again... Go here, (http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html) and you will see your TiBook as being able to run 10.2.



Please Alpha, don't turn this into another flame war.:(

I know perfectly well that my computer will run 10.2, just not QE. Question is: will it be slower on my computer than 10.1.5? I like a lot of the goodies advertised for 10.2 (like GUI navigating a Windows Network).

Point being, I still feel justified in "venting" about a $3500 computer less than a year old, and it is already hitting a "speed bump" with an Apple OS no less.:mad:

I wonder if 10.2 will let me install it on another partition, so I can boot into 10.2 or 10.1.5 or 9.2.2?

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by sturm375


Please Alpha, don't turn this into another flame war.:(

I know perfectly well that my computer will run 10.2, just not QE. Question is: will it be slower on my computer than 10.1.5? I like a lot of the goodies advertised for 10.2 (like GUI navigating a Windows Network).

Point being, I still feel justified in "venting" about a $3500 computer less than a year old, and it is already hitting a "speed bump" with an Apple OS no less.:mad:

I wonder if 10.2 will let me install it on another partition, so I can boot into 10.2 or 10.1.5 or 9.2.2?

Na, 10.2 will be much faster on your machine than 10.1.5. It will be well worth the upgrade.

[Foocha]

I doubt 10.2 will be slower than 10.1, even without Quartz Extreme. Everything I've heard from people who've tried the developer releases indicates the opposite.

With regards to purchasing 100s of 10.1 licences just weeks before a MacWorld, and after Job's clearly indicated that a paid-for upgrade wil looming. Hmmm.

[kaltsasa]

There are things called budgets and deadlines, both have to be met strictly and stuff had to be ordered.

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by skyhawk
I agreed with Kettle.

That wasn't what you did at all. What you did was to attack someone who disagreed with Kettle, calling that person retarded and offering no justification in support of your own position. In your second post, you accused me of being drunk because I disagreed with you, again without giving any indication of why you believe Apple should just GIVE you the 10.2 upgrade.

Everything else about my age, my convictions, my employment status and demands on Apple were completely fabricated.

Speculated, not fabricated. This is how you're coming across to me. Maybe you have very good reasons for believing that it's wrong for Apple to charge money for OS X. You haven't given any. You've done nothing but hurl hyperbolic invective at those who have a different opinion.

I have made a choice. I choose not to pay for OS X again. Call in whinning, call it disloyal, call it cheap, call it what you like. But know this, neither you nor Janet Reno can make me cough up $130 and I can prove it to you starting now!

I'm not calling it anything. In fact, if you would reread the last paragraph of my previous post on this thread, you'd see that I don't much care which choice you make. But if you've made your choice and you're satisfied with that choice, what are you complaining about?

And just because it's such an interesting non sequitur, what does Janet Reno have to do with any of this?

If you and others don't like whinning, don't click on a forum that is obviously going to irritate you, unless you enjoy fabricating personallities, instead of writing software like you're supposed to be doing. But I sure hope your opinion of me is positive or I won't be able to sleep! Please All Knowing One, I'll believe in professional wrestling if you want me to! If I would have known before I made a post that it had to be approved by you, I would have never bothered. I got to go, I'm sure I'm missing something for nothing somewhere!

To turn that around, if you're not interested in discussing and defending your opinion, don't post about it in a discussion forum unless you enjoy making yourself look like a raving lunatic. You don't owe anybody an explanation of your opinion, but on the other hand nobody else is required to accept or respect an opinion you won't even attempt to justify, especially when your only response is unrestrained melodrama and random personal attacks. You're not going to win anybody to your position that way. Of course, there's no reason you should have to, but if you didn't want to persuade us that you were right and we were wrong, then why did you post in the first place?

If you're interested in actually discussing something, I recommend this page (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html) as an introduction to some basics of argumentation. I have provided reasons why I feel it's reasonable for Apple to charge for this update. You clearly disagree. I asked a very straightforward question: If Apple doesn't get money from the people who benefit from their work, then who should they get money from? You don't have to answer that question, but if you can do so well, it will be very persuasive.

Or, you know, just scream and call me names some more. Whatever. It's your call.

[kaltsasa]

Very well said Gelfin

[kiwi_the_iwik]

Before you decide to invest (or in some cases, NOT to invest) in the new Jaguar OS, why don't you wait until -

1. it hits the stores,
2. gets installed onto various makes of Macs, and
3. the benchtests are released (after all, we will no doubt be inundated with these from the great many people who will undoubtedly trial this OS - an especially good site is www.xlr8yourmac.com)

After that, you can then determine whether or not it would be beneficial to upgrade to 10.2 on your computer. Common sense, really...

[skyhawk]

You're the greatest Gelfin!

[AmbitiousLemon]

for the fellow who bought a bunch of liciences for his school dsitrict, this is entirely your fault and not apple's. if you did what a good consumer shoudl ahve done and checked you would have realized that jaguar was months away from coming ut and that there would not be an upgrade path for you. also i highly doubt your story since you are not quoting education prices which indicates to me that you know absolutely nothing about schools in the first place. before you come here and fabricate a story to attack apple with perhaps you should think a little harder because your story is a pos.

[Sun Baked]

If anyone bought 100s of copies for a school district they should have purchased directly from Apple using the Apple Volume License Program (1-800-747-7483) or through the Apple Education Program.

If the school qualified for the e-Rate then it's not 130 each for 100s of copies - there is an education rate.

Plus there was an announcement of a 3 yr OS X Maintenance Program (same number) where major upgrades are included for 3 years.

It's not Apple fault that they didn't realize that Jaguar wouldn't be free, Jobs clearly stated it would be a "paid" upgrade during the XServe unveiling - he just failed to mention that the upgrade price would be a full whack payment.

[chmorley]

Pay for it or don't. No one is "forcing" you to do a damn thing.

I paid for my car. No one offered me anything free when the next version came out. I didn't bitch.

For anyone who says 10.1.x is not "finished", it's more finished than XP. Service packs are typically bug fixes. 10.2 adds new features. It's not a Service Pack.

Apple is a business. No one should be surprised they are trying to make money. Their earnings fell short of what was predicted; their profit margin fell; they sold fewer computers than the same quarter a year before. They remain one of the "healthy" computer companies. If Gateway goes away, no one will cry (except maybe the cow). If Apple were to suffer the same fate, many of us would be sad. They need to do what it takes to survive in a lousy economy with a sagging tech market. As much as I would have loved a discount, considering I bought my TiBook fairly recently with 10.1 on it, I would never expect one. When Apple chose to make it a paid upgrade, I figured I had a choice to make.

Do it or don't. Quit whining.

Chris

[sturm375]

Originally posted by chmorley
For anyone who says 10.1.x is not "finished", it's more finished than XP. Service packs are typically bug fixes. 10.2 adds new features. It's not a Service Pack.

Windows 98 Second Edition (Win98SE) was a FREE upgrade (download). If you wanted a disk, and had purchased 98, you paid for shipping, and MS sent you and upgrade disk.

Service pack don't just fix bugs. The origional release of Windows NT 4.0 had no support for plug and play(pray), nor did it have support for USB. As of NT 4.0 sp6 (I think) it has support for both. The origional release of Win2K didn't have support for firewire. SP2 (I think) added that.

Service packs add featurs, and fix bugs, and are free. They increase efficiency in the OS, just like Jaguar.

Jaguar fufills all the promises that Apple made when they introduced OS X.

[kaltsasa]

$49 a pop is what we paid for 150 licences thats at the 100-249 educational voulume licencing agreement. That totals out to be $7350. Yes we knew that Jag was to be out some time in the fall, no real hard evidence when it would be out. School starts in August, Budgets are due far before then. We had to have this ordered and we have to have this software installed before school starts. Our Apple rep has not informed us of any Apple OS X Maintenance Program. You say this is all a fabricated story. Mabye you should learn a bit more about schools. First i work with koltz, check his email. koltz@rrsd.k12.wi.us, still want more proof call 608-994-3747 and ask for Alex Kaltsas (me). Money doesn't grow on trees for school districts, especially in a budget crunch as the educational system is seeing right now We'll gladly buy the Jag upgrade after we just bought all these 10.1 licences but they are just going to have to raise your taxes to pay for it.

[kaltsasa]

Originally posted by sturm375


Service pack don't just fix bugs. The origional release of Windows NT 4.0 had no support for plug and play(pray), nor did it have support for USB. As of NT 4.0 sp6 (I think) it has support for both. The origional release of Win2K didn't have support for firewire. SP2 (I think) added that.

Service packs add featurs, and fix bugs, and are free. They increase efficiency in the OS, just like Jaguar.


I agree, service packs often do fix bugs, but they are also known for adding new features and the like. I anticipate that the Release of service pack 1 for windows XP will incorporate some new "nifty"(nifty can also stand for ripped off) features.

[chmorley]

Do it or don't. That's all.
Originally posted by sturm375
Windows 98 Second Edition (Win98SE) was a FREE upgrade (download). If you wanted a disk, and had purchased 98, you paid for shipping, and MS sent you and upgrade disk.

Service pack don't just fix bugs. The origional release of Windows NT 4.0 had no support for plug and play(pray), nor did it have support for USB. As of NT 4.0 sp6 (I think) it has support for both. The origional release of Win2K didn't have support for firewire. SP2 (I think) added that.

Service packs add featurs, and fix bugs, and are free. They increase efficiency in the OS, just like Jaguar.
We simply disagree on what 10.2 is comparable to. I agree that Service Packs add features that are needed to make an OS complete (bug fixes to most). In particular, QE does much more than this. This is new technology that has never been implemented before on any platform. Comparing this to plug and play (escpecially M$'s version of it) or firewire support is ludicrous.

Besides, if you don't think it's worth paying for, don't.
Originally posted by kaltsasa
$49 a pop is what we paid for 150 licences thats at the 100-249 educational voulume licencing agreement. That totals out to be $7350. Yes we knew that Jag was to be out some time in the fall, no real hard evidence when it would be out. School starts in August, Budgets are due far before then. We had to have this ordered and we have to have this software installed before school starts. Our Apple rep has not informed us of any Apple OS X Maintenance Program. You say this is all a fabricated story. Mabye you should learn a bit more about schools. First i work with koltz, check his email. koltz@rrsd.k12.wi.us, still want more proof call 608-994-3747 and ask for Alex Kaltsas (me). Money doesn't grow on trees for school districts, especially in a budget crunch as the educational system is seeing right now We'll gladly buy the Jag upgrade after we just bought all these 10.1 licences but they are just going to have to raise your taxes to pay for it.
I believe what you are saying, and I am sympathetic. Having worked at a few schools, I understand budgets well enough to know your "raise your taxes" comment is intended to generate concern from people here. Obviously, if you can't afford it, you go without. That may be the move you choose to make. If I had bought all those site licenses, I would be frustrated too. I might even wander over to a forum to complain about it. I would hope someone would then tell me to talk to someone who can do something about it. This is a waste of your time. Talk to someone at Apple and see if they can do something for you. If they can't, you have a choice to make.

Do it or don't. The rest is a waste of time.

Chris

[kaltsasa]

Originally posted by chmorley
Do it or don't. That's all.

Besides, if you don't think it's worth paying for, don't.

I believe what you are saying, and I am sympathetic. Having worked at a few schools, I understand budgets well enough to know your "raise your taxes" comment is intended to generate concern from people here. Obviously, if you can't afford it, you go without. That may be the move you choose to make. If I had bought all those site licenses, I would be frustrated too. I might even wander over to a forum to complain about it. I would hope someone would then tell me to talk to someone who can do something about it. This is a waste of your time. Talk to someone at Apple and see if they can do something for you. If they can't, you have a choice to make.


Chris


Following Apple's Normal Upgrade Convention a point release has never been a pay upgrade, from say 9.1-9.2, free, 8.1-8.5, Pay upgrade, but you still got an upgrade discount even on that, I think that enough people are going to either not buy mac OS 10.2, or forget the platform all together and switch to the dark side, being in contact with 2 other school districts in the past week, they both are in the same boat we are. Just bought 10.1 be cause we had to, and then this gets popped on us. We had to buy them now because we are perparing for the new year. When the software is installed it has to be legal at the time of installation, so we didn't have the option of waiting to see what might be released.

All districts are currently trying to negotiate with apple on this but it really is outragous and the 2 other districts and ours have been seriously contemplating switching to PC entirely. Right now I think that Apple is offering 10.2 Upgrades for $15, I for one really don't want to see this happen, I love the Mac, Many kids and teachers love the mac, but when it comes down to it, money and administration will make the final decision.

And to be perfectly honest with you OS X hasn't been a complete OS in my book until this 10.2 upgrade,one sees a spinning beach ball far too often on A Dual 800, the Imac 700's are a slight bit worse. Many applications will soon be requiring mac os 10.2 to be used. People who have paid full price on 10.1 should not have to pay full price for this upgrade, If they should pay at all. But I think that $59 would be a very resonable upgrade cost for people who bought 10.1 full out, $129 full cost for people who do not yet have mac os X, and if you bought a computer or os 10.1 in the past 6 months you should probely get mac os 10.2 upgrade free. I myself have always bought mac os up grades, 8, 8.5, 9.....plunking down the full price for all of those(i lost the upgrade stuff for 8 so i had to pay full price to 8.5) but I can't see paying 129 even personaly to put on an imac i bought such a short time ago.

The problem here isn't weither or not the 10.2 upgrade is worth 129, the problem is that For many it isn't feasable and apple will only lose market share in the long run if they do not change their pricing strategy on the 10.2 upgrade.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by chmorley
We simply disagree on what 10.2 is comparable to. I agree that Service Packs add features that are needed to make an OS complete (bug fixes to most). In particular, QE does much more than this. This is new technology that has never been implemented before on any platform. Comparing this to plug and play (escpecially M$'s version of it) or firewire support is ludicrous.


While other operating systems hope to introduce comparable technology in late 2004, Jaguar has it now. Quartz Extreme uses a supported* graphics card built into your Mac to relieve the main PowerPC chip of on screen calculations. This dramatically improves system performance, making Jaguar much more responsive.
Here’s how it works. Quartz uses the integrated OpenGL technology to convert each window into a texture, then sends it to the graphics card to render on screen. The graphics processor focuses on what it does best — graphics — freeing the Power PC chip to do more operations in the same amount of time. Everything is zippier.

To take your example of QE, this is a major part of what it does. This has been done on the M$ side for years. It's called 2D acceleration. It's been around since ATI was making Xpert'98 cards, and probably before.

The part that isn't available on other OS's, is saving stuff to PDF files. It also appears to do some Anti-aliesing to fonts, and vector graphic enhancements within the OS. This means it is taking full advantage of the Velocity-engine, and even more of the graphics card.

All of this was supposed to be in OS X, then OS 10.1, now we finally get it(we hope) after much beta testing.

The finder is looking more and more like windows file explorer:(


Looks like a service pack to me.


And if you still think I am wasting your time, don't read this, and definatly don't respond.

[voicegy]

Apple will announce on Wednesday that they will extend the offer for a $19.95 upgrade to 10.2 for those customers who purchase retail boxes of 10.1.3 and OS X Server from July 17th until August 24.

Unknown at this point whether these upgrades will be available locally or via direct-from-Apple.


UNCONFIRMED RUMOR:)

[kaltsasa]

sturm375, not a waste of time and definiatly a legit argument. We can rave and rave about aqua(and I do) but its slugish compared to the windows UI. I've been to understand that thats been because of not taking advantage of the graphics chipsets. 10.2 is finally supposed to adress that, and we are expected to pay full price for something that should have been in the first release. I'm not saying that 10.1 or earlier sucked, i love them to death, but in my book they we'rnt fully operational operating systems.:)

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by sturm375

To take your example of QE, this is a major part of what it does. This has been done on the M$ side for years. It's called 2D acceleration. It's been around since ATI was making Xpert'98 cards, and probably before.

You really, really don't know what you're talking about here. Aqua already supports traditional 2D acceleration of the sort you see in Windows. The Quartz PDF engine, with its more advanced composition features, simply demands more from your video card than Windows' GDI subsystem, which actually has very few capabilities that were not available as early as Windows 3.1.

OpenGL is a specification for 3D graphics, and with Quartz Extreme, Mac OS X will become the first widely released OS to use OpenGL (or any 3D API) for its primary graphics subsystem. On supported systems this will provide additional acceleration because it allows the video card to handle such things as composition of multiple layers of transparency.

It doesn't seem like it to you, because you don't understand what you're bitching about, but Quartz Extreme is a very big change.

[kaltsasa]

How bout getting the Graphics to run with CG, now wouldnt that rock!:)

[sturm375]

Originally posted by Gelfin


You really, really don't know what you're talking about here. Aqua already supports traditional 2D acceleration of the sort you see in Windows. The Quartz PDF engine, with its more advanced composition features, simply demands more from your video card than Windows' GDI subsystem, which actually has very few capabilities that were not available as early as Windows 3.1.

OpenGL is a specification for 3D graphics, and with Quartz Extreme, Mac OS X will become the first widely released OS to use OpenGL (or any 3D API) for its primary graphics subsystem. On supported systems this will provide additional acceleration because it allows the video card to handle such things as composition of multiple layers of transparency.

It doesn't seem like it to you, because you don't understand what you're bitching about, but Quartz Extreme is a very big change.

First: Read a little further in my post, I describe those PDF things you are griping about.

Second: It's still just fluff (Eye-Candy).

Third: Why do we need 3D for the OS?

We are now getting into my one of my personal grips about OS X, in all it's incarnations. Its too darn pretty. I come from a more utilitarian attitude of Computer Science. The OS should be strictly a medium between applications, and the computer hardware. When the OS takes up 2-3 GB, and uses more video processing power than is available in my TiPB 500MHz, its bloated, eyecandy. I don't like how "Pretty" M$ is going either. This is why I turn down all the setting I can to get the computer to do more of what I want.

Don't get me wrong, I really like OS X, it was a huge advancement for Apple. I can't stand any OS like Win9x, ME, Mac OS 7.x, 8.x, or 9.x anymore. I will not own a computer without the stability of OS X, WinNT, Win2K, WinXP, Linux. I won't go back.

You are bitching to me about this great advancement in the OS that Apple is doing, and I see it as a step backward. More and more Apple is choosing the same path as Windows. All the iApps built into the OS, is stupid. The only reason Apple is not under the same indictments as MS, is because of the technicality of having a small market share. I predict that it won't be long before we see another iApp web browser, incorporated into OS XI (11?).

Now I am rambling:eek:

[Foocha]

Whether or not the price for 10.2 is fair, it is consistant with previous Apple pricing, as Phil Shiller explained to Business Week:

"Q: People are asking why you're charging so much for Jaguar, the new OS X update.

A: We came out with OS X 10.0 in May, 2001, at $129. That's our usual price for paid upgrades. Last fall, we came out with 10.1 Normally, we would decide to charge $129, but because we wanted to help the adoption of OS X, we made it free to our customers. Now, with 10.2, it's $129 again, same as it always has been. I think a year and a half before charging for an upgrade is very reasonable. And we included 150 new features in Jaguar. That's a lot for your money.

Q: But people are conditioned to big Mac releases coming out every three years or so, no?

A: Actually, that's not true. If you follow the path over the last five years, there has been a major paid release approximately once a year, and a minor release that we didn't charge for on a half-year increment. "

Read the entire interview here:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/020724/tc200207244222_1.html

[chmorley]

Originally posted by sturm375
To take your example of QE, this is a major part of what it does. This has been done on the M$ side for years. It's called 2D acceleration. It's been around since ATI was making Xpert'98 cards, and probably before.

<snip></snip>

All of this was supposed to be in OS X, then OS 10.1, now we finally get it(we hope) after much beta testing.

<snip></snip>

And if you still think I am wasting your time, don't read this, and definatly don't respond.
Whether you want it or not, QE does way more than anything on the dark side. It's new.

I haven't been beta-testing OS X. I have been working--quite comfortably, thank you.

I don't consider a debate about the existential value or effectiveness of "worry" a waste of time. I actually don't feel like I am wasting my time (by writing) at all. I think you are wasting yours (by worrying/bitching).

I don't say this to be mean or antagonistic. I simply enjoy thinking and debate. Worry is pointless--as is fretting about anything outside your control. Doing it is a waste of time. Letting go of worry is part of my existential pursuit as a human being. I still do it, but strive not to. Doing it (or not) is a choice. I'd rather spend my energy on something that actually affects the world.

And kaltsasa, would you feel better if they had called it OS X 10.5? Is it the number, or the features that matter?

I hold to my primary point, though: Buy it or don't. Complain (if you want) to someone who can do something about it.

Chris