Jaguar

[Paolo]

Am I wrong or is apple asking for $129 for jaguar? I'd just saved up for an iPod and now I have to start saving for an osx UPGRADE.

Apple are becoming scamming b*stards what is going on with them first mac. and then jaguar, at least itunes is for free.

What is apple doing...
I'm a student with NO money, and apple were always good, now there just as scamming as microsoft (ok that might be a bit over the top) but still WHAT ARE YOU DOING APPLE!?

(of course if I'm completely wrong about jaguar costing a f--- load of money then I'll take all this back!)

[Polith]

You are a student, then depending on which school you attend you have a chance on purchasing 10.2 for only 69.99$. Check out the educational discounts at Apple, and yes even 70$ is a bit much, but 130$ is ridiculous.

Hope this helped a bit.

[Paolo]

I don't get what there charging for?

firstly it's only an upgrade...... I don't get it for those of us who just forked out the money for OSX (original) this just seems stupid!
Before yesterday I was fully in support of apple I thought the sun shon out of steve jobs arse... now I just think that there trying to scam everyone. a try hard microsoft (nobody can scam as well as them)

The emacs... you look at the educational discounts (in australia) and I discover that the lowest of the range is 10% cheaper but it doesn't come with a modem... I mean how crap is that... I have to the spend that 10% on a modem. So much for educational discounts.

mac. crap what is that... just another way apple can make money of it's mac faithful.

(NOT HAPPY).

[SilvorX]

hmm sounds really M$ish plot but ms would usually bring out 2 diff versions (upgrade and full :S)

is there an upgrade version? or is there just the $129 one?

[chewbaccapits]

just get it thru hl and don't bitch...screw them like they screw us...just my 13000 cents...

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by Paolo
I don't get what there charging for?

firstly it's only an upgrade...... I don't get it for those of us who just forked out the money for OSX (original) this just seems stupid!
Before yesterday I was fully in support of apple I thought the sun shon out of steve jobs arse... now I just think that there trying to scam everyone. a try hard microsoft (nobody can scam as well as them)

The emacs... you look at the educational discounts (in australia) and I discover that the lowest of the range is 10% cheaper but it doesn't come with a modem... I mean how crap is that... I have to the spend that 10% on a modem. So much for educational discounts.

mac. crap what is that... just another way apple can make money of it's mac faithful.

(NOT HAPPY).

Unless you consider Apple paying it's programmers to offer you new features a scam I don't get your point. 10.2 is beyond a bug fix it offers new features like Quartz extreme, iCal iSync, Rendezvous and more. Be happy that you're a student and saving 70 bucks.

Edu discounts are not going to be that much..there's not margin in computers anymore. The lowest eMac with no modem suits School labs on Ethernet just fine. They don't need modems.

Apple still has your back.

[rEd Eye]

But give me a break!I just paid for the full version of osX.1 several months ago with the price of my computer,and it has been useless to me so far.I don't even have audio drivers for my MOTU audio interface yet.Did I even have the option to not buy it?NO!Now I have to buy it again for full price if I want to fart around with a version that isn't a bug ridden and almost the slowest OS per Mhz on the earth?I think I'll wait till someone just gives me a copy that they downloaded,and pay for the blank CD,thanx!

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by rEd Eye
But give me a break!I just paid for the full version of osX.1 several months ago with the price of my computer,and it has been useless to me so far.I don't even have audio drivers for my MOTU audio interface yet.Did I even have the option to not buy it?NO!Now I have to buy it again for full price if I want to fart around with a version that isn't a bug ridden and almost the slowest OS per Mhz on the earth?I think I'll wait till someone just gives me a copy that they downloaded,and pay for the blank CD,thanx!

Apple doesn't ask for a cut from any money you make with their computers. Pirating the OS will just lead Apple to institute some sort of Product Activation like Microsoft.

[j763]

I bought an eMac last week... Now I have to buy Jaguar. I'm not about to bitch about that -- it's what I expected and I was ready with my $150, but $225 (aussie dollars)????? I bought QT6 pro the other day... Now if I get .mac and I get Jaguar, I've got nothing left to buy my new 10GB iPod with.

If there is no sub$25USD .mac email service, im going to be *so* pissed off...

If not, I've found this cool new service called FastMail (http://fastmail.fm) -- cheap, good and powerful, and i'd rather give them my $$ than apple right now.

[Sun Baked]

It's $30 more than a WinXP upgrade, is it worth the $30 not to use Windows?

While Apple does not bundle the iApps into the OS, the iApps are definitely part of the OS X experience and worth the extra $30.

[valypan]

if you want to protest against jaguar price and request a discounted update, PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION!!

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Jaguar/

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by valypan
if you want to protest against jaguar price and request a discounted update, PLEASE SIGN THIS PETITION!!

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Jaguar/


Ok. For the guy who bought an eMac last week, it's 20 bucks to upgrade. Not the full price, so shut up. It's also the first "full" upgrade to OSX since 10.1. Almost one year. When Apple went from os 8 to os 8.5, it was 100 bucks, when then went from 8.5 to 9, 100 bucks. No one whined. So quit whining and pony it up and enjoy your computing experience.

I am starting a petition. It's at www.stopidiotsfrombeingonline.com and you can sign up to automatically have anyone's internet account relinquished for wasting bandwith and starting whiney, uneducated, idiotic petition sites against Apple when they haven't researched the situation and have no business model clue, and who might someday petition online to make apple give us iMacs for free since that's the way it should be. This is America, We're capitalists. apple's capitalism at its finest. at least they make nice stuff.

Buy it, enjoy it, create with it, make some cash. Buy more. Ok???? It's called BUSINESS.

[Paolo]

Moxiemike you are what we call in australia a 'wanker'.

Now while america may be full of scamming swine, you have to remember apple are a world wide company... meaning there are more nice people than there are capitalist pigs buying macs.

Now while I agree apple have to make money, they have to keep into account that there customers are not made of money, especially as they aim some of there market at students etc.

Now Jaguar is more than a bug fix.... well yes and no someone mentioned that it uses quartz extreme.... wasn't that to fix the 'beach ball of death' or that spinning disk that you always get when you do to many things at once!

and ichat etc were all pretty small things that have counter parts that are for free anyway (msn, icq etc) so really I don't see why they can put a $129 price tag on it... It seems very uncharacteristic of Steve to do this, after reviving apple... he is now going to ruin it with scams. Maybe it's the stupid board... or maybe it's some stupid merge or something dumb like that!
It just seems a bit weird!

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Paolo
Moxiemike you are what we call in australia a 'wanker'.

Now while america may be full of scamming swine, you have to remember apple are a world wide company... meaning there are more nice people than there are capitalist pigs buying macs.

Now while I agree apple have to make money, they have to keep into account that there customers are not made of money, especially as they aim some of there market at students etc.

Now Jaguar is more than a bug fix.... well yes and no someone mentioned that it uses quartz extreme.... wasn't that to fix the 'beach ball of death' or that spinning disk that you always get when you do to many things at once!

and ichat etc were all pretty small things that have counter parts that are for free anyway (msn, icq etc) so really I don't see why they can put a $129 price tag on it... It seems very uncharacteristic of Steve to do this, after reviving apple... he is now going to ruin it with scams. Maybe it's the stupid board... or maybe it's some stupid merge or something dumb like that!
It just seems a bit weird!


Rendevous. iChat, QE, midi support, scanning support, new sherlock, new mail, new address book, figyure also that some of this cash goes to iTunes, iPhoto, iMove development. It's worth it. $129 is worth it.

[gelbin]

i agree it is a business.
but...with all the hoo ha on jaguar, a lot of people bought macs this summer thinking that jaguar would be a free/near free upgrade. it was hyped since even before the development conference.

typically, from my experience, upgrade paths grandfather back to some time before the official announcement. in this case, apple screwed many people that took the leap and bought a mac just before the release of the big system upgrade, expecting to be treating with some respect.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by gelbin
i agree it is a business.
but...with all the hoo ha on jaguar, a lot of people bought macs this summer thinking that jaguar would be a free/near free upgrade. it was hyped since even before the development conference.

typically, from my experience, upgrade paths grandfather back to some time before the official announcement. in this case, apple screwed many people that took the leap and bought a mac just before the release of the big system upgrade, expecting to be treating with some respect.

If people bought macs hoping that jag was gonna be free based on unsubstantiated rumors, then I can't sympathize with them at all.

That's just loony. apple never made a statement on price. If they thought it was gonna be free, they didn't get info from the mouth itself. They should be complaining to rumors sites for posting misinformation about jaguar pricing.

[JINX]

See we're all in a Catch-22 here. If someone tried to sell me a calculator for $1000 I'd say screw it, I don't need one that bad. And I wouldn't need one that bad (pencil and paper still works). But if I went on and on complaining about it that would suggest I really do need one that bad. And that's the case with 10.2. We do really need it and we do really want it because from all we've heard its going to make a major difference in the speed and usability of OS X. Somehow a lot of us think that the more we want something from Apple the more Apple should be willing to shoulder the cost and give it too us for cheap. Perhaps its because they give so much away for free, I don't know.

Now if you really don't need 10.2 that bad, let it go. Apple's made their business decision and you can make yours. But everytime someone complains it only suggests that you really do want it and Apple made the right decision. If you really don't need it that bad, just wait until you get a copy free with your next computer.

[lou tsee]

I find it really quite unbelievable to see poeple complainig about this.

Do you get free tires from your car dealers, when they ship a
new model??????

We're talking about a piece of Software which about 90% of
Apple's development team has been working on for over 9 month !!
now grab a calculator and try to work out how much money THAT is !!

Or you might compare it to the price of Office v. X. (...)

And then - you don't HAVE to buy it.

but as someone else stated: apple should probably give iMacs
away for free - it would only be just...

get a life

[drastik]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
just get it thru hl and don't bitch...screw them like they screw us...just my 13000 cents...

Don't talk about this here, Arn could get into a great deal of trouble.

PS. if you don't think Jaguar cost a crapload to develop, you're just a fool. Its the HL attitude that drives sofware prices up. Just because you once gave Apple money, doesn't mean that you've paid in for the rest of your life. You want all this cool new iApp stuff, upgrade your system and its free. And you get a better system.

[gelbin]

mr. moxie at. al.

i said free or near free.
not free.

maybe near free was more accurate, a 20 $ upgrade for people purchasing in the last month or so would be reasonable in my computer buying opinion.

otherwise, people will refuse to buy as soon as apple starts hyping a new software technology.

and also, hardware (computers/cars/tires etc.) is not the same as software. apple wants and benefits from early adoption. that is how they woo developers. by adding osx users early, they are able to make it a viable os, i.e. draw developers and applications. there is some symbiotic relationship there...they needed us at the time in a way that sears does not need me to buy new tires.

[drastik]

Originally posted by JINX
See we're all in a Catch-22 here. If someone tried to sell me a calculator for $1000 I'd say screw it, I don't need one that bad. And I wouldn't need one that bad (pencil and paper still works). But if I went on and on complaining about it that would suggest I really do need one that bad. And that's the case with 10.2. We do really need it and we do really want it because from all we've heard its going to make a major difference in the speed and usability of OS X. Somehow a lot of us think that the more we want something from Apple the more Apple should be willing to shoulder the cost and give it too us for cheap. Perhaps its because they give so much away for free, I don't know.

Now if you really don't need 10.2 that bad, let it go. Apple's made their business decision and you can make yours. But everytime someone complains it only suggests that you really do want it and Apple made the right decision. If you really don't need it that bad, just wait until you get a copy free with your next computer.

Your right.

Apple is a business and they are in business to make money, not to lose money (as they do with the iApps and iTools). You see they are losing money with these things, and it makes shareholders madder than hell to lose money if it isn't recouped somewhere.

Look capitalissm sucks to some extent, but here we are. If you think that a business should be doing anything besides aiming to make money your ignorant and living in a fools world. I suggest a little time in the real world to figure that one out.

That said, a company can aim to make money, but do so fairly and responsibly, which I think definitely describes Apple. People keep compairing to M$, but forgetting that M$ is a very sucessful business, its the anti-competitive stuff that makes them evil and wrong. Charging for a service or product is not anti competitive.

[lou tsee]

well said drastik !!

(I know my 'tires' comparison wasn't accurate)

[valypan]

Originally posted by Moxiemike



Ok. For the guy who bought an eMac last week, it's 20 bucks to upgrade. Not the full price, so shut up. It's also the first "full" upgrade to OSX since 10.1. Almost one year. When Apple went from os 8 to os 8.5, it was 100 bucks, when then went from 8.5 to 9, 100 bucks. No one whined. So quit whining and pony it up and enjoy your computing experience.

I am starting a petition. It's at www.stopidiotsfrombeingonline.com and you can sign up to automatically have anyone's internet account relinquished for wasting bandwith and starting whiney, uneducated, idiotic petition sites against Apple when they haven't researched the situation and have no business model clue, and who might someday petition online to make apple give us iMacs for free since that's the way it should be. This is America, We're capitalists. apple's capitalism at its finest. at least they make nice stuff.

Buy it, enjoy it, create with it, make some cash. Buy more. Ok???? It's called BUSINESS.

Ok its 20 bucks only for people who buy a new mac FROM July 17th until somewhere in october. ALL the rest have to pay full price. So no we dont shut up.
As for your petition, feel free to set it up as there are SOME people who still believe that everybody has the right to post their opinion on the forum and on the internet. My post said "IF" you want to protest, then sign the petition. As you clearly do not want to protest,ignore my post and refrain from further useless comments.

[evildead]

The full version costs $149

Student discount makes it $69

The UPGRADE is $19.99.


They are charging $19.99 for shipping, handeling, and packaging. I would like to see Apple put the upgrade on-line. I have a high speed connection and I would be willing to download the 2-3 CD's that it is sure to be.


$19.99 is not that much. Apple can't just send everyone free stuff in the mail. It costs money to press the CD's, make and desine the box, and ship it.


We did this before with 10.1. Maybe Apple will let us go to an Apple store for a free download/copy if we bring a CD-R again. Apple did give some free copys out at Apple stores and CompUSA's last time. My buddy went to compUSA for a free one. There was a big angry croud when they said they never got the shippment from Apple. Then some guy went in the back and pulled out the Full Retail Version and started passing it out for free. He thought he found the upgrades that Apple sent.

[gelbin]

actually, it is fairly straightforward to argue that what apple has done with itools IS indeed anti-competitive. they did what is called a 'lock-in'. By suggesting (and i am not claiming they did, but i have heard it enough to think itis possible) that people would have lifetime email @mac.com and then allowing people to become somewhat entrenched or, in the term of art, locked in, and then raising the price, they are able to price at non-market levels.

[mischief]

OS X has been $130.00 from day 1. There is only one version: The full retail boxed CD set. The variation in price reflects a need to:

1. Take care of those who have purchased a machine after expo with the old OS.

2. Get it out to students cheap.

3. Pay the expenses of re-developping an OS.

There are a lot of things you whiney fools are ignoring in what has happened with Jaguar.

You can keep your .Mac e-mail for free if you kill your iDisk. Go look. No fraud or hook involved. Assuming Apple would keep iDisk free once personal file sharing and iChat were off the ground is not only naiive but arrogant.

How exactly did folks start thinking a full *.1 upgrade would be free?? in many respects this was worthy of being a X.5 upgrade. I think it'll make it easier if you think in terms of X being more of a prefix designating BSD mac OS, at which point each change so far has been a COMPLETE REV.

Apple has fixed EVERY COMPLAINT I HAD ABOUT OS X in this release..... If you still have some things that you have VERIFIED won't work, by all means contact Apple but please find out first because most of these complaints are quite baseless.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by gelbin
actually, it is fairly straightforward to argue that what apple has done with itools IS indeed anti-competitive. they did what is called a 'lock-in'. By suggesting (and i am not claiming they did, but i have heard it enough to think itis possible) that people would have lifetime email @mac.com and then allowing people to become somewhat entrenched or, in the term of art, locked in, and then raising the price, they are able to price at non-market levels.

READ THEIR WEBSITE!!!!!! You can keep your mac.com email address for free if you kill iDisk or if you subscribe to .mac.

You jump the gun morons are really getting friggin' annoying. Go buy a PC if you think its that bad,

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by mischief
OS X has been $130.00 from day 1. There is only one version: The full retail boxed CD set.

Point Blank...that's it...

I think I should redirect this thread to my "U guys bitch too much" free-for-all...

it's not like they are asking u to pay twice...if u already own OS X...then u have to pay a little to uprade...so what?

Just because I pay $500 for Photoshop 6.0...does that mean Adobe should give me a full blown version of 7.0?! :rolleyes:

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by eyelikeart


Point Blank...that's it...

I think I should redirect this thread to my "U guys bitch too much" free-for-all...

it's not like they are asking u to pay twice...if u already own OS X...then u have to pay a little to uprade...so what?

Just because I pay $500 for Photoshop 6.0...does that mean Adobe should give me a full blown version of 7.0?! :rolleyes:

You know, I hear apple is turning from a for-profit company to a charitable/philantrhopic organization. Then they'll be giving away one free iMac or iBook (a g4 iBook, no less) with each purchase of Quicktime Pro. Buy OSX.2 and you get a free G5 when it comes out!

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by Paolo
Now while america may be full of scamming swine

There is absolutely NO ROOM on these forums for people that make over-simplified slanderous generalizations. Apple is a busuness, if you want free *****, hire your own army of inventive, completely ingenious programmers and make your own software.

But don't slam an entire population with your uneducated venomous jargon. You should be banned. :mad: In aussie terms "P!ss off".

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by iH8Quark


There is absolutely NO ROOM on these forums for people that make over-simplified slanderous generalizations. Apple is a busuness, if you want free *****, hire your own army of inventive, completely ingenious programmers and make your own software.

But don't slam an entire population with your uneducated venomous jargon. You should be banned. :mad: In aussie terms "P!ss off".

THANK YOU! FINALLY SOMEONE TALKING SENSE!!!!!!

[gelbin]

mr. mox.

based on the 5000+ people that signed the petition, either
1) we were all morons and wrong
2) apple was terribly unclear
3) both 1 and 2
4) apple has since changed their policy.


but thanks for lumping me in with the morons.

i am oh so humbled.

[mischief]

Originally posted by gelbin
mr. mox.

based on the 5000+ people that signed the petition, either
1) we were all morons and wrong
2) apple was terribly unclear
3) both 1 and 2
4) apple has since changed their policy.


but thanks for lumping me in with the morons.

i am oh so humbled.

I'd say option3 with a heavy emphasis on the former. You are a moron who refuses to check his facts as are all 5K or so who signed that petition without even trying to find out what's actually going on. Though I will say that it sucked that Apple's website initially dead-ended the switchover page.

Enjoy that Presario! Bumbass.:p

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by mischief
Though I will say that it sucked that Apple's website initially dead-ended the switchover page.

There still isn't a page to switch your account to email only, is there? I don't see it yet. I could just not be seeing it, though. :rolleyes:

[gelbin]

good that xlr8yourmac is full of morons as well then..

Apple's .MAC Feedback Page -
Several readers sent a link to Apple's .MAC feedback page at http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html and http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac.html (both seem to be the same form) asking that I post the link for mac.com users to let Apple know how they feel about the pricing changes and the lack of an email-only mac.com option. (For those of us that don't need/want to pay for disk space and features we don't need or use.)

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
READ THEIR WEBSITE!!!!!! You can keep your mac.com email address for free if you kill iDisk or if you subscribe to .mac.

And i keep hearing people say this, but I sure haven't seen it anywhere.

jeez...am I blind?:rolleyes:

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by iH8Quark


And i keep hearing people say this, but I sure haven't seen it anywhere.

jeez...am I blind?:rolleyes:

quark, go to mac.com click on help and thene mail, scroll down to the part about converting your trial account to email only. This will go live when the trials end (75 days)

Converting your .Mac trial account to an email-only account

IMPORTANT: If you choose to convert your trial account to an email-only account, all your data files on Apple's servers (except for email messages) will be removed. Other .Mac services, such as iDisk, HomePage, Backup, and Virex, are not accessible to email-only accounts.

To convert your trial account to email-only, go to www.mac.com. Click Account in the .Mac menu bar, then click the Email Account Management button. Enter the member name and password of the trial account you'd like to convert, then click Convert.

Print your account information for future reference, then click Continue.

[iH8Quark]

Thank you, sir. Whew! what a relief! :cool:

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
Thank you, sir. Whew! what a relief! :cool:

Seems like the 5000+ who signed the pertition, um, jumped the gun! ;)

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by Moxiemike


Seems like the 5000+ who signed the pertition, um, jumped the gun! ;)

Can't exactly blame them, though. That info isn't exactly posted in neon lights.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by iH8Quark


Can't exactly blame them, though. That info isn't exactly posted in neon lights.

I;m a perfectionist. I dug around before jumping. Believe me, I want my free mac.com account so I can get emails from hunnies on nerve.com, you know? ;)

I was enraged too, when I thought "Christ, will i have to set up another email now????:"

[Heltik]

Some people seem to wonder why we're annoyed...

When I bought OSX I knew it was a work in progress, but I wanted to support the cause and prepare myself for the new OS. It cost me about £100 to do this.

In the box there are 3 upgrade tokens... taking into account that the software was a work in progress (even 10.1 runs like a dog on my 500Mhz 320mb iBook) is it not reasonable to expect that us early adopters who have supported Apple should be able to obtain at least 3 updates for a nominal charge?

At the moment I have parted with the original £100 plus £14 for an update. That's £114 for a system that although looking nifty offers little in the way of functionallity over and above the classic system.

I'm told that 10.2 might make my iBook usable... I've waited a year for that!!

I mean the 10.1 update came with upgrade tokens... what was the point of that?

[gelbin]

heltic on this one

[Heltik]

You know something... It strikes me that we got the 10.1 upgrade not as a service to us but because Apple realised that 10.0 had no developer support and Microsoft had invested heavily in Office V.x - which incidently only ships on 10.1 or later...

It strikes me that at the time they knew noone would develop for 10.0 and that we would be stuck with a system that we'd paid for but had no software if they didn't give us the upgrade.

Now we've gone with them they've 'paved the way...', they don't care less!!!

[Paolo]

Apple offers there computers at a higher price to the rest of the market for there hardware and closely integrated software... right, so I assume that when I dish out my 4kAUS to apple for a computer that I'm not going to be ripped off when they make a bug fix and pack it with a bunch of programs that I already had so they could put a large cost on it! Junk mail filters... woo ****** hoo. A new IM Wow now that's thinking different. iTunes 3 with smart playlists.... yeah well they release this after we've had a year or two to order our iitunes play lists.
All in all apple has just hyped the market into buying macs and then ripped it off... Apple is a truely american company... who knows, maybe tomorrow we'll find out that apple infact doesn't have billions in the bank and infact is liquidated!!! (in the true american way!)

(Sorry for my over simplified statements about americans... but they are slightly better than the over simplified insults of Moxie "your all morons" I mean wow, the sheer intellect of that statement just blew me away... just a question to Moxiemike Did you get your friends round to help you come up with that one?)

[gelbin]

it appears, according to macnn, that apple has reiterated 'no free email only .mac accounts'

so who is the assneck now....

[rice_web]

I just purchased Jaguar. Heh, $129 isn't that bad. Yes, I am a student, and yes, I paid for both 10.0 and 10.1.

I'm buying it because I don't want to buy a new tower or iMac pre-loaded with 10.2, and I'd rather improve the speed of my 400MHz iMac DV for a mere $129. Yeah, I say "mere" because it might save me $2000--the cost of the 17" iMac (that's the only Mac I'd buy right now)

[Rower_CPU]

It's amazing how quickly everyone turned from screaming for the 10.2 update to screaming for new PowerMacs...

Jaguar will make your current machine feel like a new one. I'm very happy with it...and I haven't even seen it on a machine that supports QuartzGL yet!:eek:

The email thing is a huge mistake on Apple's part, and Phil Schiller has even said that they expect to lose about 90% of their current users.:rolleyes:

[Paolo]

I'm just pissed off with the fact that iTools is built into mac osx and I can't use those menus anymore etc because there going to cost and everything... I was just getting used to it.

[iH8Quark]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Phil Schiller has even said that they expect to lose about 90% of their current users.:rolleyes:

I'm assuming you mean 90% of their email users?

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by iH8Quark
I'm assuming you mean 90% of their email users?

iTools users...yes.

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Paolo
I don't get what there charging for?

firstly it's only an upgrade...... I don't get it for those of us who just forked out the money for OSX (original) this just seems stupid!

Microsoft would have called it Mac OS 2002, or something that made it seem like a whole new version. If you look at the feature differences between 10.1.5 and 10.2, I don't know if anything since Win 3.1 to Win 95 has been such a big difference. Not to mention that most of Windows releases:

Are slower than the previous release on the same hardware
Are more cosmetic than functional
Should really be beta releases due to the number of bugs in them.
--

On monday, I am going to switch to the latest developer release as my primary OS for work. I think that they should allow a cheaper upgrade price if you have purchased the previous version within the past year.

QUESTION: I have AppleCare, does that give any discount on the upgrade price? If it doesn't it should. Even a 20% discount would be appreciated.

All the new revenue streams that apple is exploiting have a double edge. They are difficult for us to swallow, but they do improve Apple's financials. I don't currently own any apple stock, but if I did, I would be glad that they are making sure they can continue to innovate, by insuring that they are recouping the development costs.

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Paolo

The emacs... you look at the educational discounts (in australia) and I discover that the lowest of the range is 10% cheaper but it doesn't come with a modem... I mean how crap is that... I have to the spend that 10% on a modem. So much for educational discounts.
(NOT HAPPY).

I probably should have commented on this with my previous post but...

There is a large market for people who do not need a modem on their computer. I certainally don't need it. The only reason I would use is to test the access servers where I work (I am a network engineer). I have DSL and wireless at home, and wireless and ethernet at work. Schools (a target market here) have no need for a modem whatsoever. I understand that there are people who rely on a modem, and unfortunately this might not be the machine for you. An alternative would be to purchase an Airport. It would be a better long term investment than an external modem. You could plug your eMac into the ethernet port, and connect the modem to the airport. Even if you didn't have wireless now, chances are you might in the future. It is a solid investment, particularly if apple does the smart the smart thing and allows a simple card swap for 802.11g

[Paolo]

Okay that is probably the most useless idea I've ever heard... I mean having an airport soley for your desktop computer is just dumb...It's not as iff I need to use my desktop computer everywhere in my house, I just need it on my desktop.... why wouldn't i purchase an internal modem for the eMac???
(of course back to my original argument, why doesn't the emac just come with it!!!

[nuckinfutz]

Originally posted by Paolo
Okay that is probably the most useless idea I've ever heard... I mean having an airport soley for your desktop computer is just dumb...It's not as iff I need to use my desktop computer everywhere in my house, I just need it on my desktop.... why wouldn't i purchase an internal modem for the eMac???
(of course back to my original argument, why doesn't the emac just come with it!!!

What part of English don't you understand. The eMac that does not have a modem is for LAN networks!!! I repeat the eMac that does not come with a modem is for LAN's. Paolo you are really making things more difficult than they have to be.

[Paolo]

OOOOHHHH, of course I forgot that apple made computers for specific networks.... silly me, I mean what a stupid thing to think that maybe apple computers arn't meant to be for anything... it's for the user to choose.
So they should at least have a cheaper model with a modem!!!!

I suppose the iPod is ONLY for listening to music, and the powerbook can ONLY be used as a portable, no way you could use it in a desktop configuration... because it just wasn't MEANT to do that!
YEAH RIGHT!!!!

the emac is not meant for anything... it's aimed at education... and that's it!!!

You know the whole company moto: Think different!... oh wait or was it Think LAN... It's one of those two

[JonD]

lol

[sneed]

Originally posted by Paolo
OOOOHHHH, of course I forgot that apple made computers for specific networks.... silly me, I mean what a stupid thing to think that maybe apple computers arn't meant to be for anything... it's for the user to choose.


Assuming you know that the eMac was made specifically for the education market, and that technology classrooms are primarily on LANs, I would have to assume you are just being a pr1ck about all this.

I guess Aussies are just more interested in discord than discourse. Must be in the genes.

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Paolo
Okay that is probably the most useless idea I've ever heard... I mean having an airport soley for your desktop computer is just dumb.

Well, perhaps a more creative person could think of a reason to have an Airport card in a desktop machine...

For Example, a house with multiple computers. User with cable modem. Cable modem is in living room or den (Or a user with dsl coming into first floor office).

Homeowner also has computer in kids room, an eMac. The kids room is in the attic on the third floor. Homeowner does not want to run Cat5 up to the kids room. Homeowner buys Apple Airport. Attaches it to WAN device (cable or dsl modem). Connects a switch to LAN port. Connects his laser printer and G4 to the Switch. Airport card in eMac connects to Airport via wireless.

The only reason it is a useless idea to you, is because you are probably only thinking in terms of your limited needs. I still stand by my judgement that an Airport is a better investment than a usb modem. Even if it costs more, you get more in the end. You will be able to share either a dialup or broadband connection between multiple users. You will have some protection due to NAT. You will have Wireless, in case a friend comes over with his laptop and wants to play a lan game.

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Paolo

So they should at least have a cheaper model with a modem!!!!

the emac is not meant for anything... it's aimed at education... and that's it!!!


Okay, this is getting off topic, but if Apple is targetting the education market, a very aggressive market, It makes sense for the cheapest machine to have the bare minimum essentials. The bare minimum for an education mac would be ethernet, not a modem. A student in college, a student at home with parents with a broadband connection, these are the bare minimum market that apple seeks. They are a far larger market than those who want a modem and not ethernet. Not to mention the fact that the modem is probably a daughter card, and the ethernet is most likely on the motherboard

[Paolo]

If you have a whole bunch of desktops... in a house in twnety different rooms and you want an airport for that then it seems a bit of a waste, as it's chipper to just get a modem/ethernet socket put into every room, that way making a stable network, that doesn't deviate on the reception of the airport... I'd like to see you set up an airport in that scenario and say you don't have toruble getting reception in some rooms... a hardline network is always going to be better unless your house is specifically design just for that reason.

Also why the hell would you have so many computers all over your house... put them in a few rooms or just one... I don't get why you would put them up in the attic, and it the Den, and the office...

I am creative but I'm a little more practical than you and your airyfairy ideas!

[8thDegreeSavage]

Sweet jesus ...i totally forgot what the topic of this thread was....o there it is...Jaguar.:(


When you said the bit in the beggining about "the sun shon out of Jobs arse" i totally spit my morning java all over my desk.

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Paolo
If you have a whole bunch of desktops... in a house in twnety different rooms and you want an airport for that then it seems a bit of a waste, as it's chipper to just get a modem/ethernet socket put into every room, that way making a stable network, that doesn't deviate on the reception of the airport... I'd like to see you set up an airport in that scenario and say you don't have toruble getting reception in some rooms... a hardline network is always going to be better unless your house is specifically design just for that reason.

it is not "chipper" to put a modem in everyroom, you would need to have each on a separate phone line (ie different number) or only use one computer on the internet at a time. Plus dsl modems cost $100.

The going price for an Ethernet run is also $100. Sure you can do it yourself, if you own your house. If you want to fish cables through walls. It is a hell of alot easier to use 802.11

I agree Cat5 is great stuff. I will most likely put it my house. Hell, I might even run some multimode fiber to a few key places.

Why would you have a bunch of computers in the house?
Wife's computer
My computer
kids computer
my Laptop

Then printers, All machines need to be able to talk directly to the printer, because that is how I want it to be. I do not want my computer in the same room as my kids computer. The kids computer will be in the family room, so I can watch what they are doing. My desktop would be in my office. My wife's computer in her office. Of course I will want to be able to use my laptop wherever.

Enough of this offtopic banter, If you can't see the point, too bad.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by sneed
I guess Aussies are just more interested in discord than discourse. Must be in the genes.

:eek:

Now, that's a nice statement...

:mad:

If you would be around, I would forget for a minute that I am a pacifist and beat the ***** out of you until you start laughing!

I am not from Australia, but I hate ignorance like yours!

You should be really embarassed of a statement like that and it was way worse than the statement made before indirectly(!) about Americans...

I don't get people like you! When you are running out of arguments you have to become racistic? That's really poor!

I really feel sorry for you...

groovebuster

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by groovebuster
:eek:

Now, that's a nice statement...

:mad:

If you would be around, I would forget for a minute that I am a pacifist and beat the ***** out of you until you start laughing!

I am not from Australia, but I hate ignorance like yours!

You should be really embarassed of a statement like that and it was way worse than the statement made before indirectly(!) about Americans...

I don't get people like you! When you are running out of arguments you have to become racistic? That's really poor!

I really feel sorry for you...

groovebuster

And a ";)" would have made it OK, right? :rolleyes:

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


And a ";)" would have made it OK, right? :rolleyes:

I knew that moral police would show up and start again about it!

Do you feel better now? Do you need it to make something moving in your panties? Holy ****!!!!

If you don't see the difference between a statement like that and what I've did you are also a candidate to feel sorry for! A personal insult (and I still don't see it as one) is something totally different than a racistic statement!

groovebuster

P.S.: Sometimes I think I am in a nuts house here...

[swahilibill]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz


Unless you consider Apple paying it's programmers to offer you new features a scam I don't get your point. 10.2 is beyond a bug fix it offers new features like Quartz extreme, iCal iSync, Rendezvous and more. Be happy that you're a student and saving 70 bucks.

Edu discounts are not going to be that much..there's not margin in computers anymore. The lowest eMac with no modem suits School labs on Ethernet just fine. They don't need modems.

Apple still has your back.


but what is the rest of us who are not IT managers or whatever, just students gonna do with all that ****. iCal has really no use, iSync is only use if yu have an expensive ericsson phone or an iPod(already syncs, HAHAHA). Rendevous is useless to anyone that has only one computer. iChat is a copy of a million chat services out there. sherlock is a major ****ing ripoff of Watson(awesome product). Quartz extreme to me is useless, because I can't tell any ****ing difference. i have Jaguar, and the speed increase seems to be only dramatic on the older model machines. Where in all of this is software that many of us need? Quicktime 6 is a jip, it cant be used in FCP or DVDSP. I will not pay for something I have no use for. My machine is fast enough already, and I dont wanna shell out 70 bucks for something that has no use.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by groovebuster
I knew that moral police would show up and start again about it!

Do you feel better now? Do you need it to make something moving in your panties? Holy ****!!!!

If you don't see the difference between a statement like that and what I've did you are also a candidate to feel sorry for! A personal insult (and I still don't see it as one) is something totally different than a racistic statement!

groovebuster

P.S.: Sometimes I think I am in a nuts house here...

Here's a clarification for you:

racist
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

"Aussie" is not a race, it's a nationality.

PS. You're just now realizing that?;)

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Here's a clarification for you:

racist
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

"Aussie" is not a race, it's a nationality.

PS. You're just now realizing that?;)

Here's a clarfication for you:


I guess Aussies are just more interested in discord than discourse. Must be in the genes.

Racial differences are represented by genetical differences. The genetical code of a race has some specific parts that is shared by all members of that race and makes the difference to another race. Those differences can be very obvious (skin-color), or slightly noticeable (e.g. different nose form).

Relating the behaviour to the genetical code and saying that this genetical sequence is typical for the australian population, therefore all australians behave like that, is racistic. Couldn't meet your definition better that you copied from a dictionary...

By the way... it says: "discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion..." So that means not only, right?

Don't try to be smarter than you are...

groovebuster

[Pin-Fisher]

Originally posted by Paolo
OOOOHHHH, of course I forgot that apple made computers for specific networks.... silly me, I mean what a stupid thing to think that maybe apple computers arn't meant to be for anything... it's for the user to choose.
So they should at least have a cheaper model with a modem!!!!



#1 You just dont get it. It is not for a specific network...its for A network...any network....

#2. Just get a usb modem and shut up about it or get an external modem and a serial to USA adapter and move on with life...

[Rower_CPU]

Allright, groovy, let's dance!

Since you've degraded into personally attacking me (no ;) this time to hide behind), it's time you learned a thing or two.

I have cut you some slack in the past since English is not your first language. That will no longer apply.

There are subtleties of this language that you fail to grasp, namely humor and sarcasm. You continuously misunderstand comments and go off on wild, moralistic tangents. You are the only "moral police" here, and you start swinging your club wildly whenever you feel like it.

The genetic differences between Americans and Australians are negligible...there is almost NO difference. We both mostly have European roots. And what's more, there is no indication that the Australian in question is even a native. He was commenting on the combative nature of the poster as it relates to his society, not his race.

Stop pretending your knowledge of English is infinite and admit that you have some shortcomings.

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Pin-Fisher


#1 You just dont get it. It is not for a specific network...its for A network...any network....

#2. Just get a usb modem and shut up about it or get an external modem and a serial to USA adapter and move on with life...

Even Paolo was a bit sarcastic in his comment, it is more you guys who don't get it...

He said already before that he was talking about the discount prices for education and that the education model costs 50$ less than a consumer model, with the difference that the consumer model comes with a modem and the education model doesn't. Therefore he doesn't have any advantage by buying the education model, since he has to buy a modem and ends up at the same price as for the consumer model.

That's all he was b*tching about. Considering that he's a student without a lot of money I can understand him. If students are supposed to buy the eMac as well there is no reason not to offer a version with a modem still being cheaper than the consumer model.

The school buys for the lab (of course), a student for home use!

groovebuster

[bunton]

Its is a whole new OSx not an upgrade, over 150 new features so pay or stay.

Anyways people with osX should get that new Jaguar for free

Is it called Jag-War and Apple and Microsoft are growing so ever close

[job]

Originally posted by sneed
I guess Aussies are just more interested in discord than discourse. Must be in the genes.

It's sarcasm, groovebuster.

Holy crap groove, what's with holier-than-thau attitude?

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Stop pretending your knowledge of English is infinite and admit that you have some shortcomings.

I never said that my knowledge of English is infinite and also never thought so.

Did I make you upset? Fine! Now you know how it feels like!

Maybe my english is a little bit rusty meanwhile, because I don't have the oppurtunity to practice a lot anymore, but believe me, I know when something is meant sarcastic and when it is dumb and racistic. I know more about the english culture and humor than you might imagine, since I am married to a Canadian, have family in North America and friends in the UK and Australia.

Do you have to go on such a low level just to "pay it back to me"?

And by the way... this time I didn't put a ";)" because I wasn't joking at all! You were provoking me on purpose and now you have a break-out that you have enough because of the response??? You got what you wanted! Be happy! You were able to tell me how stupid I am to make you feel superior, so that you can look into the mirror tonight when you brush your teeth before you go to bed and tell yourself again what a cool and educated guy you are. Really brave! I am impressed!

Know what? Just ignore me as I will ignore you in the future and everything is fine... I really don't need conversations with people like you, as well as you don't need conversations with guys like me.

Adieu!

groovebuster

[sneed]

Originally posted by groovebuster


:eek:

Now, that's a nice statement...

:mad:

If you would be around, I would forget for a minute that I am a pacifist and beat the ***** out of you until you start laughing!

I am not from Australia, but I hate ignorance like yours!

You should be really embarassed of a statement like that and it was way worse than the statement made before indirectly(!) about Americans...

I don't get people like you! When you are running out of arguments you have to become racistic? That's really poor!

I really feel sorry for you...

groovebuster

You call yourself pacifist? Laughable. More like a reactionary. From my contact with you, it seems that thats all you know, besides I didn't run out of argument. I believe I made my point quite succinctly. You may not agree, but if you read it again, it's there.

As for you racism charge, if you take a little time to read the thread, and consider the comment in context, you'll see that I made the joke because of his nationalistic comments, not because I hold any nationalistic grudge (or racist gruadge - whatever your definition is). As a matter of fact, I love Aussies, been there, dated them, worked with them. Hell, I was just having a little fun with an ex-colonist. Try thinking before you respond next time.

Still, I want to thank you for your comments, and for sharing your righteous indignation. I guess it takes an outsider to point out our many failings. Deutchland über alles, eh groovebuster?

FYI, that last bit was sarcasm.

[PrettyMan]

X.2 has enougrh new to pay4it.

I'm a developer and I'm very happy with the new capabilities of the system and I'm going to buy it. But I think that the price is wrong to tons of users, and it increases piracy o not to upgrade and then, all those amazing features cannot be used in any application because people doesn´t use it.

It´s all, folks.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by groovebuster
Don't try to be smarter than you are...

You started it, groovy.

I'm not going to sit back and let you attack me, nor am I going to sit back and watch you make stupid comments about other people.

You go your way and I'll go mine, but I'm not going to ignore stupity.

[big]

>X.2 has enougrh new to pay4it.

does 10.2 have a voice chat feature in iTalk, or iChat or whatever the iFlip they are calling AIM's client?

AIM is supposedly working on it, though they finally had it working by the time 9.2 came out an now, we do not have it AGAIN!

can anyone with the preGM confirm this for me?

[sparkleytone]

i think its time for this thread to be closed.

calling arn, eyelikeart, ambitiouslemon. please do something about this, its too late to get back on topic and no one wants to see 5 pages of flames.

[big]

>i think its time for this thread to be closed.

excuse me, I have a vailed Jaguear question...
don't make me start another thread

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by big
>X.2 has enougrh new to pay4it.

does 10.2 have a voice chat feature in iTalk, or iChat or whatever the iFlip they are calling AIM's client?

AIM is supposedly working on it, though they finally had it working by the time 9.2 came out an now, we do not have it AGAIN!

can anyone with the preGM confirm this for me?

OS X has speech recognition built into the OS, so technically you can do it...I just don't know how productive it would be.

[big]

so how would you use the "talk feature" like through the AIM client? I just want something nice and easy like that...

though I guess I could fidle fart around with it, any ideas/suggestions?

[Rower_CPU]

You can speak into an app, but I haven't tested it out much lately.

ViaVoice has much better, and trainable, speech recognition...

[big]

yeah, but can you "talk" to other people through the OSX AIM client?

[Rower_CPU]

Oh, now I get it.

As far as I know, it's not in there. Why don't you use Net2Phone or some such app (if there is one for Mac)?

[big]

is there one? plus all my girlfriends across the country Love AIM, and well, let me say....

they just want to hear the sound of my voice!

<austin power's voice> YEAH BABY</austin power's voice>

no seriously, what do you suggest (and dont tell me boot into 9)

[Rower_CPU]

Sorry, but I'm not really aware of anything.

We were all kind of hoping to see some sort of videoconferencing app from Apple using MPEG4 come out with 10.2...who knows, wait and see.:)

[big]

KOOL! I just ordered 10.2 (since I can not justify the G4 purchace yet)

any suggestions on a webcam?

[Rower_CPU]

There's no app out there yet...just a rumor.

I haven't been lucky in finding any webcams that explicitly support OS X. If anyone else has info I'd love to hear about it too.

[big]

well, apple supports a firewire one, off its site, though it's $100 here in the states....

[Rower_CPU]

Sorry, I was referring to USB webcams.

I manage a lab that has 35 macs with USB webcams that aren't going to work under OS X.

[mmatlock]

Originally posted by Paolo
Am I wrong or is apple asking for $129 for jaguar? I'd just saved up for an iPod and now I have to start saving for an osx UPGRADE....

If you haven't purchased the iPod -- and I bet you have -- you can now save $100. This is the way it always works. As soon as you buy something the price goes down or a better model is released. That's the American way. We want it bigger, faster and NOW. This is just the beginning, I'm affraid.

If you are a student enrolled in college then get everything at a discount. Check with Apple's education division or your school's bookstore. Many of these bookstores have on-line sites connected with the school's main site. An example is a small site at Syracuse University. If you visit its bookstore you will have a lot of software to choose from. They also carry Macs, etc. But if you cannot visit you can get an idea of prices by going to:

http://www.syr.edu/bkst/

Granted they are not listing a lot of items but at least you will get an idea of how much $$$ you can save with educational pricing.

Good luck
:)

[big]

>Am I wrong or is apple asking for $129 for jaguar? I'd just saved up for an iPod and now I have to start saving for an osx UPGRADE....

you can buy it for some $69, I just bought it off their sight, though you should go and talk to an authorized resaler

they are small business owners too

[mmatlock]

Originally posted by groovebuster


I never said that my knowledge of English is infinite and also never thought so.

Did I make you upset? Fine! Now you know how it feels like!

Maybe my english is a little bit rusty meanwhile, because I don't have the oppurtunity to practice a lot anymore, but believe me, I know when something is meant sarcastic and when it is dumb and racistic. I know more about the english culture and humor than you might imagine, since I am married to a Canadian, have family in North America and friends in the UK and Australia.

Do you have to go on such a low level just to "pay it back to me"?

And by the way... this time I didn't put a ";)" because I wasn't joking at all! You were provoking me on purpose and now you have a break-out that you have enough because of the response??? You got what you wanted! Be happy! You were able to tell me how stupid I am to make you feel superior, so that you can look into the mirror tonight when you brush your teeth before you go to bed and tell yourself again what a cool and educated guy you are. Really brave! I am impressed!

Know what? Just ignore me as I will ignore you in the future and everything is fine... I really don't need conversations with people like you, as well as you don't need conversations with guys like me.

Adieu!

groovebuster

[mmatlock]

Groove... statement


Why can't people just stick to facts and rumors and stop becoming personal and emotional. It's not worth it and it really slows up the thread process. I don't know about others but I'm not here to read all this bulls**t from the same people. Groov, et al, get with the program:o

[big]

>>Am I wrong or is apple asking for $129 for jaguar? I'd just saved up for an iPod and now I have to start saving for an osx UPGRADE....

I know! I'll sell you my 5gig iPod for $175, then you'll have plenty of dough left over for 10.2!

[Paolo]

This thread is one of the best threads I've ever read. I'm proud to say that I triggered it all aswell.
who ever made the statement about aussies... your absolutely right... although it's a fair bit of speculation to say it's genetic... (there still doing tests).
But groovebuster... thanks for sticking up for US aussies... well THE aussies... I'm not actually australian.. (italian). But still I know you meant well. and Rower, you legend! Some of your come backs were cool, although I thought goovebuster had you at one point, but you came out with flying colours! Good Stuff... keep it up! (make fun of his mum or something that'll get him going)

Back to Jaguar...
I'm slowley getting convinced that apple aren't trying to rip me off, but the intial reading of the price was a bit much for me to cope... Oh and I never thought the sun shone out of steves arse... I was just emphasising my point (badly).

Secondly (on the slightly racist side of things).
Why does steve say Jag-wire... is it a play on words, or is there some weird american accent that has butchered the word. (like how americans say Emu like 'emoo' it's 'emYOU' and stupid is said 'stoopid' instead of 'styoupid')

And what is it with americans being so fat and ugly (okay I'm kidding, I'm kidding)
(Australia has just as many fat and ugly people as America)
And by that I don't mean to say that being fat is bad either... or being ugly is bad (well it sort of is, but you can hardly help it)

I think I'll just quite while I'm behind....

[ntg]

I know there are lots of new features in Jaguar, but what about fixes for 10.1.5 for scanners, printing preferences and the like?
It used to work in 9, so why not now?

[neilt]

Originally posted by ntg
I know there are lots of new features in Jaguar, but what about fixes for 10.1.5 for scanners, printing preferences and the like?
It used to work in 9, so why not now?

Scanners worked in 9 with third party drivers - THIS IS NOT APPLES FAULT.

Look at VueScan, this software can control how many different brands of scanners? Yet the manufacturers can't seem to get their act together to get a driver out the door?

If Apple throws built in support for scanners into Jaguar, fantastic. But to expect it in 10.1.5, when it was never there before doesn't make sense.
This is not a fix for Apple to make. They didn't support it in the OS before (not even for their own scanners), why should they do it now?

neilt

[ntg]

Originally posted by neilt


Scanners worked in 9 with third party drivers - THIS IS NOT APPLES FAULT.

Look at VueScan, this software can control how many different brands of scanners? Yet the manufacturers can't seem to get their act together to get a driver out the door?

If Apple throws built in support for scanners into Jaguar, fantastic. But to expect it in 10.1.5, when it was never there before doesn't make sense.
This is not a fix for Apple to make. They didn't support it in the OS before (not even for their own scanners), why should they do it now?

neilt
This is from Epson's OSX Q/A page:-

Q: Do the drivers, included with Mac OS X, contain all the features of Epson's current Mac drivers?
A: In the current release of Mac OS X, some printing features are not supported, including custom paper sizes, banner printing, booklet printing, and watermarks. ColorSync color matching may produce unexpected results when printing to any raster printer. As Apple updates and adds features to the operating system, we expect to be able to increase not only the number of compatible drivers, but also the functionality of those drivers.

All I know is, it's NOT my fault, so why not fix these things rather than make me pay $129 ?

[neilt]

ntg: I was commenting specifically about the scanner support. I do happen to agree with you about the printing issue. these features were provided under os 9, and should be provided under os x. I have an Epson 9000 sitting behind me, and I waste alot of paper on this thing when using illustrator 10 due to the lack of custom paper sizes.
but since 90% of what I am trying to print to it is in quark, i use classic to print to it anyway :rolleyes:

however, scanners weren't support then and we shouldn't expect them to be supported now.

[ntg]

Originally posted by neilt
ntg: I was commenting specifically about the scanner support. I do happen to agree with you about the printing issue. these features were provided under os 9, and should be provided under os x. I have an Epson 9000 sitting behind me, and I waste alot of paper on this thing when using illustrator 10 due to the lack of custom paper sizes.
but since 90% of what I am trying to print to it is in quark, i use classic to print to it anyway :rolleyes:

however, scanners weren't support then and we shouldn't expect them to be supported now.

Sorry, here's the bit about scanners:-
Q: Which EPSON scanners are supported by Mac OS X native mode directly?
A: Epson America is committed to releasing Scanner Mac OS X drivers. At this time, Scanner Mac OS X drivers have not been released because the TWAIN Working Group and Apple have not finalized the specification for OS X TWAIN. No scanner vendor is able to release Mac OS X TWAIN drivers until the TWAIN specification is finalized some time later this year. However, as an interim solution, we have posted a Twain driver and utility program called Scan to File that you can use with some of our Epson scanner models. For users who want to scan from Photoshop 7, we have also posted an Epson scanner plug-in. The utility and plug-in are trial versions only, therefore, we cannot provide any technical support. Use the following links which will take you to the Epson Developer web site where you can download these programs.
Epson Developer Web Site - Scan To File
Epson Developer Web Site - Plug-in Module for Adobe Photoshop
In the meantime, drivers are being developed, so, please check our website for updates. Until drivers are made available, you may also consider using the current Epson drivers in Mac OS X Classic environment.
For Perfection 1250/1650/2450 users: To provide the greatest level of compatibility, Epson is coordinating the release of their Mac OS X drivers with the planned release of the Mac OS X compatible versions of the major image editing software packages. This should take place in the 3rd quarter of 2002. We regret any inconvenience, but feel that this decision better serves our customers.

As I understand, 'Trial versions' are not to be used in business areas, and as such these are hardly 'real world' tools to use. Over to Apple and the TWAIN group...

So again, what are the options with 10.1.5 ? (apart from 9.2!)
(and before anyone flames me, I'd like to point out that I administer NT networks [from my G4-533DP, of course!), and with all the new bits in 10.2 I've already ordered the upgrades. I'm just trying to make the same points as the MD, and see if anyone else has a more persuasive answer rhat I could pass on!)
:rolleyes:

[neilt]

Originally posted by ntg


(epson excuses deleted)
In the meantime, drivers are being developed, so, please check our website for updates. Until drivers are made available, you may also consider using the current Epson drivers in Mac OS X Classic environment.
For Perfection 1250/1650/2450 users: To provide the greatest level of compatibility, Epson is coordinating the release of their Mac OS X drivers with the planned release of the Mac OS X compatible versions of the major image editing software packages. This should take place in the 3rd quarter of 2002. We regret any inconvenience, but feel that this decision better serves our customers.

As I understand, 'Trial versions' are not to be used in business areas, and as such these are hardly 'real world' tools to use. Over to Apple and the TWAIN group...

So again, what are the options with 10.1.5 ? (apart from 9.2!)
(and before anyone flames me, I'd like to point out that I administer NT networks [from my G4-533DP, of course!), and with all the new bits in 10.2 I've already ordered the upgrades. I'm just trying to make the same points as the MD, and see if anyone else has a more persuasive answer rhat I could pass on!)
:rolleyes:

Again I mention VueScan. This is $49 dollar software that will control these epson scanners that epson says can't be controlled. It also controls:

SCSI Film Scanners supported:
Nikon LS-20, LS-1000, LS-30, LS-2000, Minolta QuickScan 35, Scan Dual, Scan Multi, Scan Multi Pro, Scan Speed, Scan Elite, Polaroid SprintScan 120, SprintScan 4000, Microtek ArtixScan 4000, Microtek 35t+, Polaroid SprintScan 35/LE/+, Microtek 45t+, Polaroid SprintScan 45, Canon FS2700, FS2710, FS4000, HP PhotoSmart, Acer ScanWit 2720S and 2740S, Epson FilmScan 200, Konica Qscan

FireWire Scanners supported (Windows, Mac OS 9.x/10.1):
Nikon LS-4000, LS-8000, Polaroid SprintScan 120, Minolta Scan Elite II, Scan Multi Pro, and all Epson, Microtek and UMAX Firewire scanners

USB Film Scanners supported:
Nikon CoolScan IV (LS-40), Canon FS4000, Minolta Scan Dual II, Minolta Scan Elite II, HP PhotoSmart S20 (S20 on Windows only)

SCSI Flatbed scanners supported:
Epson, HP, Microtek, UMAX, Acer and AGFA SnapScan flatbed scanners as well as rebadged Microtek scanners (AGFA DuoScan, AGFA StudioScan), rebadged UMAX scanners (Linotype-Hell Office, Jade, Saphir, Nikon AX-210, KYE ColorPage HR5, Epson Perfection 600) and rebadged Canon scanners (Apple Color OneScanner 600)

LM983X USB Flatbed scanners supported:
Epson 1250U, Canon N650U, N656U, D660U, N670U, N676U, N1220U, N1240U, HP 2100, 2200, Umax 3400, 5400, BearPaw 1200, 2400, Genius ColorPage-HR6, Plustek OpticPro

Other USB Flatbed scanners supported:
Most Epson, Acer and AGFA USB flatbed scanners as well as Microtek X12USL, 4700 and 8700

For Epson, or any other manufacturer to blame Apple and OS 10.1.5 for their lack of drivers is ridiculous. This one software package controls almost everything. I have personally used it with a Canon 1220u, Polaroid Sprint Scan 4000 and a Linoscan 1450. And the software is better than most of the stuff you get with general use scanners. And as near as I can tell from the Hamrick Software website, this was all written by one guy and it works in OS 9 as well as X.

and what is that in Epson's statement about waiting till 3rd quarter for software to ship? When did Photoshop come out. I have had it for several months now.

Again - I am not flaming you, nor do I think that your point about the printers is offbase in anyway....it is just this scanner issue. I really don't see how this is Apple's fault. If Ed Hamrick can write software (that has been out since at least March), why can't these scanner manufacturers get it out the door.
Damn, license it from Hamrick and ship already! :mad:

neilt

[hoshi]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz


10.2 is beyond a bug fix it offers new features like Quartz extreme

thats where you are wrong. apple has always claimed quartz support in osx. that is the whole point of osx. its 3d rendering quartz desktop :p

just cause 10.2 came out and they started calling it quartz "extreme" instead of just quartz doesnt mean its anything more than a few tweeks to more fully support Quartz.

quartz and quartz extreme are the same thing is my point.

they are just adding the extreme because there is better support for quartz in jaguar (actually its support that always should have been there)

lets have 10.2 a free upgrade or 120$ for a full install.

[big]

>lets have 10.2 a free upgrade or 120$ for a full install

when you buy 10.2, that's what you are getting, a full install. It's like owning 7.6, then wanting to go up to 8.0, or 8.5. You just bought the newest full install CD

[chmorley]

Originally posted by hoshi
thats where you are wrong. apple has always claimed quartz support in osx. that is the whole point of osx. its 3d rendering quartz desktop :p

just cause 10.2 came out and they started calling it quartz "extreme" instead of just quartz doesnt mean its anything more than a few tweeks to more fully support Quartz.

quartz and quartz extreme are the same thing is my point.
What are you sniffing?

There is no indication that Apple initially intended to use graphics cards to accelerate Quartz. As a matter of fact, the tweaking of the widgets in the interface would clearly indicate they hadn't foreseen how they might accomplish this. No one had ever done 3d acceleration with a graphics card before. They likely noticed the lags in the interface and started trying to figure out how to improve the speed. This required innovation. QE is not "the same thing" as Quartz.

You simply made this up, then stated it as fact.

That's stupid.

And wrong.

Chris

[hoshi]

Originally posted by big
>lets have 10.2 a free upgrade or 120$ for a full install

when you buy 10.2, that's what you are getting, a full install.

nope its an upgrade. you have to have 10 installed in order to "upgrade" to 10.2

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by hoshi
nope its an upgrade. you have to have 10 installed in order to "upgrade" to 10.2

Where did you hear that?

You can boot from the install CD and install 10.2 to a formatted HD, with no prompting for a 10.0/10.1 CD.

[coolfactor]

It's unfortunate that many people purchased a computer *expecting* Jaguar to be a free/low-cost upgrade. It's funny that most people don't realize that these message/rumors boards are largely to blame. There is so many assumptions and speculation on these boards, I'm not surprised that emotions get worked up and people get disappointed. People, you're doing it to yourselves, and only you can change that outcome... not Apple. Good luck folks.

Ted

[coolfactor]

QE is not "the same thing" as Quartz.

I agree that Quartz Extreme and Quartz are not the same thing. I remember reading that for those Macs that don't have the needed hardware, OS X "falls back" to Quartz [Classic].

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by coolfactor
I agree that Quartz Extreme and Quartz are not the same thing. I remember reading that for those Macs that don't have the needed hardware, OS X "falls back" to Quartz [Classic].

...and fortunately, still sees performance increases over 10.1.5.:)

[ibookin']

Originally posted by coolfactor
It's unfortunate that many people purchased a computer *expecting* Jaguar to be a free/low-cost upgrade.
People who purchased a computer recently get the upgrade for $19.99. Also, Amazon is offering a $50 rebate on Jaguar, knocking the price down to $79, in my opinion a reasonable level for the improvements 10.2 gives us. Personally, I'll be buying Jaguar for $69 using my education discount.:D

[chmorley]

This is not simply a matter of opinion. The OS was re-thought, changing it dramatically. To educate yourself (for those ignorant whiners out there), check out the presentation (http://www.opengl.org/developers/code/features/siggraph2002_bof/sg2002bof_apple.pdf) on the subject presented at SIGGRAPH 2002 by Peter Graffagnino, Apple's Director of Graphics and Imaging (and mentioned on the front page here).

Chris

[hoshi]

Originally posted by ibookin'@mwny

Personally, I'll be buying Jaguar for $69 using my education discount.:D

how do you use your education discount???
i wanna try

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by hoshi
how do you use your education discount???
i wanna try

Buy it from your school's bookstore, or online via Apple's Educational store.

[BongHits]

in my opinion, apple needs our money more than anyone else in the computer industry (this is their time to shine since everyone else is failing). my reasoning is this: all of these nice new aquisitions and developers apple has been picking up recently are all forming up to look pretty huge imo. all of this development and work that's going into os x has to cost mad loot, and apple really needs some right now. so they pushed os x 10.2 out the door, slapped a fat sticker on it, and are trying to fill up a bottomless resevoir of cash for the long road ahead against M$.
buy 10.2 because i don't want to live in M$ dominant system. o and it has a couple nice features (QE & rendevouz :D).

[hoshi]

i disagree .
where does all the money from macworld go to?

i think that apple has more money than you would think.

apple is far from poor. plus they have tons of realestate
i doubt theyre anywhere neer cutting it close.

sounds to me like a media act to get more money.

i would love to give them tons of money just for being the best and wanting them to succeed dont get me wrong.

i just dont see how they could be hurting right now.
unless they are just fools with money and miss-appropriating etc.
which i doubt seriously ¬.¬

[chmorley]

Originally posted by hoshi
i disagree .
where does all the money from macworld go to?

i think that apple has more money than you would think.

apple is far from poor. plus they have tons of realestate
i doubt theyre anywhere neer cutting it close.

sounds to me like a media act to get more money.

i would love to give them tons of money just for being the best and wanting them to succeed dont get me wrong.

i just dont see how they could be hurting right now.
unless they are just fools with money and miss-appropriating etc.
which i doubt seriously ¬.¬
Call it a hunch--you don't own your own business, do you? You've never run an event, have you? And I'm betting you've never paid a staff. FYI, my wife runs large corporate events like MWxx. She says that Apple likely makes little or nothing from them.

I'm certainly not arguing that Apple is poor, but their goal is not to be poor+1. It's to make as much money as they can. This includes covering all expenses (which most people who don't run their own businesses almost always underestimate).

Their job is to charge the right price for software so that they can maximize profits. It is not to be kind to its loyal users. The fact that they do that at all is simply a sign that they are good business-people.

Some day this will make sense to you, and you will not be angry. After all, do you get angry about paying for your groceries?

Chris