iTunes Europe and Indies

[MacRumors]

Reuters reports (http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040712/media_apple_1.html) that Apple is on the verge of an agreement with indie record labels to offer their music for sale on the European iTunes Music Store.

The iTunes Music Store for Europe launched in June, but with the absense of these Indie labels (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040614163950.shtml). Independent artists reportedly represent a substantial portion of music sales across Europe.

[PRØBE]

Reuters reports (http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040712/media_apple_1.html) that Apple is on the verge of an agreement with indie record labels to offer their music for sale on the European iTunes Music Store.

The iTunes Music Store for Europe launched in June, but with the absense of these Indie labels (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040614163950.shtml). Independent artists reportedly represent a substantial portion of music sales across Europe.


I guess they sat back and waited to see if it would take off before signing on the dotted line.

[Shagrat]

Good, and about time!

(First post???)#

(Drat, Drat, and double drat! No!!!)

[centauratlas]

It is time that the independent labels (and artists) realize that it is in their best interest to be available on ITMS (and other stores). Trying to drive a bargain that isn't economically feasible for Apple hurts them both.

[Savage Henry]

The traditional UK business way ... wait to see what the future holds before you make any move. Man, we are so risk adverse.


Anyway, it's about bleedin' time. I've got me some iPod space that needs a fillin' ...

[mpw]

Good. I waited expectantly for the iTMS-UK and when it arrived I found the first few tracks i searched for just were not there. I've been using it frequently for what is there and will propably not by much on CD anymore so if artists want to get there music out there (to me at least) it'll need to be available at iTMS.
By the way I don't have an iPOD (yet) and have never downloaded an mp3 illegally so you can't say I'm taking from the artists pockets etc. I'm just tight and lazy.

[theadz01]

iTunes will quite literally rock when they sign up

[leenoble]

I had a feeling this would happen. I bet quite a few artists who have iPods of their own have scouted around the store and then called their record companies to ask "Why the hell aren't I on there? You're losing me sales!".
And Apple knew that would happen. Over a million songs a month from Europe alone is nothing to be sniffed at.

[virividox]

if independent artists were on itms then the store would have a major advantage over other music stores so much more choice

[Maxicek]

As soon as I saw the reports for the European download figures in the first week, I thought that the indies would come back to the negotiating table. Hopefully they will complete the deal this time. I have an empty shopping cart waiting for when they do.

[fingers]

I understand that the indies did not want to be part of the iTMS due to the poor deal with Apple...

Hopefully both sides have found a happy compromise. At the end of the day it'll be great news for music lovers; the artists; and Apple.

I can't wait... :)

[Windowlicker]

oh please let's get some stuff from Compost Records and Good Looking Records there.. also Intercom and Defunked etc are welcome aboard.. any chance? .hopefully.

[DGFan]

I understand that the indies did not want to be part of the iTMS due to the poor deal with Apple...

Hopefully both sides have found a happy compromise.

It sounds like "poor deal" meant "the same deal everyone else got"
Whether there was a compromise we'll just have to wait and see.....

[RobH]

It sounds like "poor deal" meant "the same deal everyone else got"
Not really.
Independent labels in Europe orginally chose not to release artists on to iTunes because of what they thought were terms inferior to deals offered to major record companies, The Times said.
Apple could easily dismiss any criticism by publicly stating that the indies were offered the exact same terms as big labels. That Apple has not done so is quite telling.

[DGFan]

Not really.

The only published details I have seen indicated that the indies wanted to be able to renegotiate the price of songs after 6 (?) months and that Apple wanted a 3 year deal like they had with the major labels. That's it. If you have inside information would you care to share it?


Apple could easily dismiss any criticism by publicly stating that the indies were offered the exact same terms as big labels. That Apple has not done so is quite telling.

Yes. It tells me they're acting professionally. Waging a contract negotiations war in the media only creates ill will with the other side. And since Apple needs the indies more than the indies need Apple that wouldn't be very smart, now would it?

[RobH]

The only published details I have seen indicated that the indies wanted to be able to renegotiate the price of songs after 6 (?) months and that Apple wanted a 3 year deal like they had with the major labels.
I've seen published details that indicated that the contract of at least one major label included the possibility of revisiting pricing.
Yes. It tells me they're acting professionally.
It tells me that they don't want to admit to lying. Steve Jobs has publicly claimed in the past that everyone gets the same deal.

Kudos to the indies for exposing that lie.

1. Apple would never agree to a better deal with the indies than the major labels.
2. Since they're back to the negotiating table, there must be something to negotiate about.
3. If Apple was offering the same deal to the indies, there wouldn't be anything to negotiate about.

QED.

[DGFan]

I've seen published details that indicated that the contract of at least one major label included the possibility of revisiting pricing.

It tells me that they don't want to admit to lying. Steve Jobs has publicly claimed in the past that everyone gets the same deal.

Kudos to the indies for exposing that lie.

1. Apple would never agree to a better deal with the indies than the major labels.
2. Since they're back to the negotiating table, there must be something to negotiate about.
3. If Apple was offering the same deal to the indies, there wouldn't be anything to negotiate about.

QED.

You seem to be working under flawed assumptions.

First, I don't recall Apple claiming publicly that everyone gets the same deal. I remember that he privately told the American indies that last year. But that was a) private and b) last year.

Second, Apple may now desire to have major parameters fixed but still leave some room for negotiation. This would not contradict any public statements made in regards to European negotiations (because there haven't been any)

Third, item #3 from your list is blatently false because you're ignoring the possibility that the European indies are the ones who are now willing to bend.

If you're going to argue with a law student you're going to have to do better before declaring QED. Nice try, though

[fingers]

In the Guardian (http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1239200,00.html) Simon Wheeler of the independant label Beggars Banquet and the Association of Independent Music is quoted:-

"When Apple launched iTunes in America it said there was one deal for everyone but we soon found out that the majors were getting paid more, sometimes a lot more than us. We need to make sure that we get the correct terms in Europe."

How true this is i have no idea - but it's quite an interesting article.

[RobH]

First, I don't recall Apple claiming publicly that everyone gets the same deal. I remember that he privately told the American indies that last year. But that was a) private and b) last year.
Yes, I was wrong. It was a private event.
Third, item #3 from your list is blatently false because you're ignoring the possibility that the European indies are the ones who are now willing to bend.
Uhh, no. Try rereading #3. If Apple is offering the same deal, why on earth would the indies "bend" and go for a worse deal?
If you're going to argue with a law student
LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED.

[DGFan]

Uhh, no. Try rereading #3. If Apple is offering the same deal, why on earth would the indies "bend" and go for a worse deal?


There are many possibilities. The simplest of which is that after the launch of iTMS UK/FR/DE they changed their mind.

Do I think that is exactly what happened? No. Do I see proof that this is not what happened? No.

[RobH]

There are many possibilities. The simplest of which is that after the launch of iTMS UK/FR/DE they changed their mind.
If they were offered the same deal and are still being offered the same deal, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR NEGOTIATIONS.

They would simply tell Apple that "We've changed our mind. We'll take the deal".

That there are negotiations proves that either
1. They were not offered the same deal.
or
2. The indies are trying to get a better deal than the major labels.

However, since Apple would never give the indies better terms than the major labels, we can rule out #2 since Apple would not enter into any such negotiations.

[DGFan]

If they were offered the same deal and are still being offered the same deal, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR NEGOTIATIONS.

They would simply tell Apple that "We've changed our mind. We'll take the deal".


Yelling doesn't make your argument any better.

Would you please show me where the term "negotiations" appears in the article. The second possibility you listed is consistent with the information appearing in the article. Therefore you're still wrong.
QED

[dontmatter]

Oh my god, no negative reviews!!!! this must be a macrumors first. Then again (although this isn't the first thing I have thought this for) I don't see how this can be considered bad news. :D

[duklaprague]

i thought i read that apple wanted to tie the indies into the same deal for 3 years, but had not similarly tied the majors down for 3 years?

dunno tho. anyway - its got to be good news, and presumably as the launch has pretty much been a raging success rather than a damp squid, the indies will want to get on there.

and there's loads of stuff being added anyway, if you look at the full weekly lists of new stuff.

Iain

[Sabenth]

load of old codswalop simple fact is to many indi lables and not enough time to sort it all out ... Like it states we like indi lables over here not just the big boys and girls ruling the air waves ....


Beshides have you heard half the crap the big lables are pushing out lattly oh so orginal so dull ...

Pardon my rant i am a bit bored of itms now

[HiRez]

53 positive, ZERO negative? Has that EVER happened before?

[RobH]

Yelling doesn't make your argument any better.
Wow. Really? Here I thought the point of yelling was that the other party would take notice :rolleyes:
Would you please show me where the term "negotiations" appears in the article.
Would you please show me where the term "money" appears in the article. If "money" doesn't appear in the article, there obviously can't be any money involved.

With your love for logical fallacies you'll make a great lawyer.