Out of interest, how many members have *wiped* OS X and installed GNU/Linux instead?

[glossywhite]

Hi all. I just wanted to know, out of curiosity (no, this is *NOT* a flame magnet please) how many of you good people have an Intel Mac, but have completely wiped out OS X & installed a GNU/Linux distro instead?.

The reason I ask this, is because this is exactly what I have done - I own a 2009 Mac mini, but I decided I would wipe off OS X & try the machine running *completely* on Ubuntu 9.10 for one month, and if I could manage it without all my "iApps", possibly some time longer.

Any interesting stories?.

Thanks.

[podiki]

There's hardly any point to buy Apple hardware if you don't run OS/X. You can get faster hardware for less if you want to run Linux. Although the cheaper mac mini's are not such a bad deal, I guess.

OS/X is the only reason I bought my Mac Pro.

[glossywhite]

There's hardly any point to buy Apple hardware if you don't run OS/X. You can get faster hardware for less if you want to run Linux.

OS/X is the only reason I bought my Mac Pro.

Well I didn't buy it in order to run GNU/Linux, I simply wanted to see how the Ubuntu team have progressed... and it is running VERY nicely indeed. I am considering selling the Mac mini, and building a better spec PC in order to run Ubuntu. This will also mean that I can *finally* put the 1Tb WD hdd that is inside a caddy, dangling off a USB cable, *inside* the PC, for faster access - I cannot wait!.

[robbieduncan]

I bought my very first Mac (a clamshell iBook (http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/ibook/stats/ibook_se_466.html)) to run Linux on as it was the cheapest laptop I could find with a DVD drive. Before I received the laptop the OSX public beta was released. So I installed that instead and I've never looked back...

[HyperX13]

Whenever I try the Ubuntu, I do not last more than 1 week. Installing new apps (without using their software manager) is impossible. Even google earth meant some command line code and then eventually it just broke. Also apps break with each update. When I went to 9.10, most of my apps that were installed manually stopped working.

[ucfgrad93]

There's hardly any point to buy Apple hardware if you don't run OS/X. You can get faster hardware for less if you want to run Linux. Although the cheaper mac mini's are not such a bad deal, I guess.

OS/X is the only reason I bought my Mac Pro.

Agreed, I bought my macs for OSX.

[harperjones99]

Whenever I try the Ubuntu, I do not last more than 1 week. Installing new apps (without using their software manager) is impossible. Even google earth meant some command line code and then eventually it just broke. Also apps break with each update. When I went to 9.10, most of my apps that were installed manually stopped working.

This has been my experience with it...I can't stand using it. Windows is more comfortable for casual use than Linux. OSX is the only reason I own a Mac. I understand the benefits Linux has for many and I know they think people who don't want to hassle with command lines etc are stupid and lazy...but so be it. I don't see the need.

[glossywhite]

I disagree with some of your comments - Windows is only comfortable because it is what people are used to, but GNU/Linux is *far* superior in every single way, except for mass adoption.

I think you will find that in the near future, free software will make headway, and gradually push proprietary OS' out, as people begin to value their freedom once again. If you don't *know* about your freedoms, then you cannot learn how to protect them from being taken away from you, which is essentially what non-free software does to people - you are locked in, and if you *really* don't care about that, then something is worryingly wrong.

I love Macs and I *love* the whole Mac experience - I am by NO means implying that Apple are "evil" - I wouldn't take my views to such dramatic extremes without hard proof, but paying hand over fist for software that you will maybe used 2-3 times, is just ridiculous.

Humanity *NEEDS* to start sharing more, and giving back for the greater good. You may disagree or agree - that is your own choice, but that is where the moral fabric has disintegrated; pumping money all in one direction, to big corporations who *really* don't care about you.

I value my freedom and the ability to copy and share, way more than I value a Mac, or *any* computer or object, whatsoever, and so should you, before things get so bad that it will be a nightmare to backtrack.

:)

[harperjones99]

I disagree with some of your comments - Windows is only comfortable because it is what people are used to, but GNU/Linux is *far* superior in every single way, except for mass adoption.


It was more comfortable for me than and linux distro because for example when I wanted to connect to the internet it was simple. Every linux distro I tried had issues even the supposed "dumbed down" ones...requiring some thing to be added/changed or whatever.

I am also someone however that never had virus issues on Windows and didn't find it that bad...I just wanted to try OSX and I do like it better. OSX makes installing things and getting things done ridiculously simple. I have never heard of someone try and give up OSX because it was too bothering and not intuitive...but I hear people say that about the various linux distros daily.

I don't disagree with you about sharing but the reason OSX and Windows are used more widely is because they generally work and don't require anything more than clicking the buttons to get something done.

[Dagless]

I try a Linux distro every few years to see where they're up to but I always end up clearing them off after a week or so.

I disagree with some of your comments - Windows is only comfortable because it is what people are used to, but GNU/Linux is *far* superior in every single way, except for mass adoption.

Except its really not. Windows and OSX are much easier to use.
What do you mean by freedom? It's an OS. It's indifferent. I can copy files (right click), I can share files (email, copy to removable drive, FTP). I also don't have to jump through hoops to get basic things working.
Couldn't live without both OSX and Windows. I need OSX for the pro apps and some iLife ones. I need Windows for DirectX and a (windows only) app for work. Whereas I could live happily without Linux.

[maflynn]

I'm mostly on fedora. While I will not wipe osx off my drive, fedora has become my main OS of choice.

If I could get OSX running decently under vmware, then that might be a different story, but until then, I'll boot osx so I can run lightroom.


Humanity *NEEDS* to start sharing more, and giving back for the greater good. You may disagree or agree - that is your own choice, but that is where the moral fabric has disintegrated; pumping money all in one direction, to big corporations who *really* don't care about you.



What the heck is this? We're talking about running an operating system. I find Linux to be more efficient with resources and I prefer how it does things over windows and osx. I'm not using linux for the greater good of humanity, but rather to get my work done.

[glossywhite]

*sigh* this is evidence in itself, that people just don't have a clue about what *real* freedom is. Have we lost our way SO much, that real freedom is a foreign concept?.

http://fsf.org

Now you can find out about freedom, and sharing for the greater good, if you chose to do so. :)

I try a Linux distro every few years to see where they're up to but I always end up clearing them off after a week or so.



Except its really not. Windows and OSX are much easier to use.
What do you mean by freedom? It's an OS. It's indifferent. I can copy files (right click), I can share files (email, copy to removable drive, FTP). I also don't have to jump through hoops to get basic things working.
Couldn't live without both OSX and Windows. I need OSX for the pro apps and some iLife ones. I need Windows for DirectX and a (windows only) app for work. Whereas I could live happily without Linux.

I would digress, but I refuse to allow my posts to make this thread spiral downward into a childish flame war. All *nix based OS'es are exponentially superior to anything that Microsoft could ever dream of creating, but you are entitled to your opinion... but I don't see how you can back that up; oh well.

:)


PS: When (not if) Windows gets panned, eventually, *nix based OS'es are where things are heading - if you doubt that, then you must be kidding yourself, and I can tell you as a Mac user myself, unless Apple bring some form of "budget" Mac out for mass adoption, it is highly unlikely that the general public are going to punting for Macs, if all they need is a cheap tool to surf and email with. *nix/GNU/Linux is definitely the way forward - a blind man could see that.

[dmmcintyre3]

I have, I had OpenSUSE running on my iBook for a while. Only OS on the hard drive. Ran it on there all the way from slightly after the battery connector was failing to almost till the logic board died. (aprox. 3 months) But I used my PB mainly

Now when I had a PC as my only computer it was my only os on there.

http://fsf.org
That link was so useful:

[ucfgrad93]

To use free software is to make a political and ethical choice asserting the right to learn, and share what we learn with others. Free software has become the foundation of a learning society where we share our knowledge in a way that others can build upon and enjoy.

Yep, can't learn or share what we learn while we are using evil MS Office.


Currently, many people use proprietary software that denies users these freedoms and benefits. If we make a copy and give it to a friend, if we try to figure out how the program works, if we put a copy on more than one of our own computers in our own home, we could be caught and fined or put in jail. That’s what’s in the fine print of the license agreement you accept when using proprietary software.

How horrible that the companies that create these products should be compensated for their efforts.

Sorry, but that website is a huge pile of crap.

[glossywhite]

I try a Linux distro every few years to see where they're up to but I always end up clearing them off after a week or so.



Except its really not. Windows and OSX are much easier to use.
What do you mean by freedom? It's an OS. It's indifferent. I can copy files (right click), I can share files (email, copy to removable drive, FTP). I also don't have to jump through hoops to get basic things working.
Couldn't live without both OSX and Windows. I need OSX for the pro apps and some iLife ones. I need Windows for DirectX and a (windows only) app for work. Whereas I could live happily without Linux.

Yep, can't learn or share what we learn while we are using evil MS Office.




How horrible that the companies that create these products should be compensated for their efforts.

Sorry, but that website is a huge pile of crap.

Distillation of an opinion down to:
"Sorry, but that website is a huge pile of crap." just shows you are ignorant, nothing more. I really cannot see how you can justify that rather rubbish comment, and it kinda demonstrates that you don't *understand* the ethics, freedoms and philosophy of the GPL & GNU software. Hopefully one day maybe you will, but in the meantime it is just a difference of opinion, hey.

Do you not realise how free software makes money?. I suggest watching Richard Stallman giving one of his amazing, legendary lectures; Google video is *full* of them. :D

[ucfgrad93]

just shows you are ignorant, nothing more... but in the meantime it is just a difference of opinion, hey.


I guess my ignorant self will just leave it at that as well. You aren't worth arguing with.

[glossywhite]

I guess my ignorant self will just leave it at that as well. You aren't worth arguing with.

Well there is a difference there - you obviously see this as an argument, which is a bit worrying really, as it isn't one, at all.

[ucfgrad93]

but GNU/Linux is *far* superior in every single way, except for mass adoption.

If you don't *know* about your freedoms, then you cannot learn how to protect them from being taken away from you, which is essentially what non-free software does to people - you are locked in, and if you *really* don't care about that, then something is worryingly wrong.

Humanity *NEEDS* to start sharing more, and giving back for the greater good.

I value my freedom and the ability to copy and share, way more than I value a Mac, or *any* computer or object, whatsoever, and so should you, before things get so bad that it will be a nightmare to backtrack.

:)

*sigh* this is evidence in itself, that people just don't have a clue about what *real* freedom is. Have we lost our way SO much, that real freedom is a foreign concept?.

http://fsf.org

Now you can find out about freedom, and sharing for the greater good, if you chose to do so. :)



PS: When (not if) Windows gets panned, eventually, *nix based OS'es are where things are heading - if you doubt that, then you must be kidding yourself, and I can tell you as a Mac user myself, unless Apple bring some form of "budget" Mac out for mass adoption, it is highly unlikely that the general public are going to punting for Macs, if all they need is a cheap tool to surf and email with. *nix/GNU/Linux is definitely the way forward - a blind man could see that.

and it kinda demonstrates that you don't *understand* the ethics, freedoms and philosophy of the GPL & GNU software. Hopefully one day maybe you will, but in the meantime it is just a difference of opinion, hey.

Well there is a difference there - you obviously see this as an argument, which is a bit worrying really, as it isn't one, at all.

Now why would I see it as an argument when you have just sanctimonously come in and declared that linux is far superior to anything else, we don't understand our freedom, linux is the way of the future, etc.

Since you said it, I guess that we should just accept it as the gospel truth.:rolleyes:

[Jason Beck]

There's hardly any point to buy Apple hardware if you don't run OS/X. You can get faster hardware for less if you want to run Linux. Although the cheaper mac mini's are not such a bad deal, I guess.

OS/X is the only reason I bought my Mac Pro.


What he said. You buy it for the hardware and the software. In addition last night I installed Windows 7 64 bit on my macbook... ran like a dream, snappy, IE64 was fast, and I ended up deleting the partition. I have a 360 to game with and thats the only reason I'd keep it.. but OSX just rocks man.

[maflynn]

Now why would I see it as an argument when you have just sanctimonously come in and declared that linux is far superior to anything else, we don't understand our freedom, linux is the way of the future, etc.

Since you said it, I guess that we should just accept it as the gospel truth.:rolleyes:

That's because we're mere humans who have been corrupted by capitalism and the evil microsoft. If we need to attain the next level of consciousness we need to embrace Linux as the way to our salvation and humanities only chance of survival :D

[ucfgrad93]

That's because we're mere humans who have been corrupted by capitalism and the evil microsoft. If we need to attain the next level of consciousness we need to embrace Linux as the way to our salvation and humanities only chance of survival :D

Ah, now I understand. I have seen the light, and will immediately wipe OS X from my macs and install linux.;)

[glossywhite]

Please note - I am simply expressing my *personal* opinions, and I don't expect anyone to agree, nor do I disrespect anyone for their views - this is my free speech, but in the same respect you are free to express it back to me, as long as you don't perceive my passion for what I believe, as arrogance and pig-headedness, because I am not here to do that :D.


Bottom line, however, is that free software is free, and yet Apple/Microsoft source code is not yours to view & modify/improve. Smugness & sarcasm aside, you'd be left high and dry if your software vendor went bankrupt - then what would you do, for your next version of Photoshop/OS X etc?. I am just saying that it bears thinking about... unless using closed-source, means you must be closed-minded, in which case I'll let you off, because any further discussion at that point in time would be futile. Wouldn't you like to have the peace of mind of knowing that the next version of X or Y software would be released, because of the fact that coders were growing the older version source code into something better?.

If the myth that the corporations who sell you your software are doing it in YOUR best interests, is to be perpetuated, then I'd like someone to show me HOW this is so.

[Jason Beck]

Please note - I am simply expressing my *personal* opinions, and I don't expect anyone to agree, nor do I disrespect anyone for their views - this is my free speech, but in the same respect you are free to express it back to me, as long as you don't perceive my passion for what I believe, as arrogance and pig-headedness, because I am not here to do that :D.


Bottom line, however, is that free software is free, and yet Apple/Microsoft source code is not yours to view & modify/improve. Smugness & sarcasm aside, you'd be left high and dry if your software vendor went bankrupt - then what would you do, for your next version of Photoshop/OS X etc?. I am just saying that it bears thinking about... unless using closed-source, means you must be closed-minded, in which case I'll let you off, because any further discussion at that point in time would be futile. Wouldn't you like to have the peace of mind of knowing that the next version of X or Y software would be released, because of the fact that coders were growing the older version source code into something better?.

If the myth that the corporations who sell you your software are doing it in YOUR best interests, is to be perpetuated, then I'd like someone to show me HOW this is so.

hrmm if that happened I would reinstall a Windows partition.
Until then no viruses for me! : )

[ucfgrad93]

Bottom line, however, is that free software is free, and yet Apple/Microsoft source code is not yours to view & modify/improve.

Why should it be? They put the time and resources into the program. They should be allowed to control the products of their work.

Smugness & sarcasm aside, you'd be left high and dry if your software vendor went bankrupt - then what would you do, for your next version of Photoshop/OS X etc?.

I would find another product to suit my needs. But that is just me. I don't update my software at every new revision. I sometimes skip a few years before I update.

If the myth that the corporations who sell you your software are doing it in YOUR best interests, is to be perpetuated, then I'd like someone to show me HOW this is so.

Corporations sell me software in order to make money, nothing more.

[nick1516]

I bought my mac to try OS X and attempt to develop for the iphone. I haven't had an attempt to try developing yet, but unless I get really into it I'm going to buy a windows 7 laptop with a lot more power for the same price when I go to college.

[glossywhite]

Why should it be? They put the time and resources into the program. They should be allowed to control the products of their work.



I would find another product to suit my needs. But that is just me. I don't update my software at every new revision. I sometimes skip a few years before I update.



Corporations sell me software in order to make money, nothing more.

So, let us imagine a scenario where "X corp" burns down, and with it goes the only copy of the source of their best selling product (they may not have backups elsewhere - you cannot tell me they definitely would) ... so it would have to be re-invented, all over again.

Yet another good reason for free software - break away from being put under the control of the vendor, and their often misguided feature/design decisions. The inclusion of desired features by individuals, by adding said features and improvements into the product, FAR outweighs anything that some company imagines their users will or will not use.

Life ain't all about making money you see, but when the time comes for $$, there is PLENTY of scope for making a fair and healthy living off it. Free doesn't mean zero price *all* the time, just a much fairer price than that of M$/Adobe/Apple etc, and the four inherited freedoms that come with it.

If you don't value your freedom in the *real* sense, then I am preaching to deaf ears - you're not going to "get" free software at all, until you consider *ALL* the implications of how proprietary software stifles development and growth, channels money in one direction; toward the rich corporations who control you with activation & DRM etc.

I have said what I feel is necessary, I would be wasting time to go any further - you can find out for yourselves if you so wish. Remember one name; Richard Stallman.

[ucfgrad93]

I have said what I feel is necessary, I would be wasting time to go any further

Thanks for sharing!:rolleyes:

[nanofrog]

There's hardly any point to buy Apple hardware if you don't run OS/X. You can get faster hardware for less if you want to run Linux. Although the cheaper mac mini's are not such a bad deal, I guess.

OS/X is the only reason I bought my Mac Pro.
It depends on the system needed though. The base '08 DP system was actually less expensive compared to offerings from other vendors using the same CPU's.

That changed in '09 though. :(

[Dagless]

So, let us imagine a scenario where "X corp" burns down, and with it goes the only copy of the source of their best selling product (they may not have backups elsewhere - you cannot tell me they definitely would) ... so it would have to be re-invented, all over again.

Then I'll move on, it's not exactly a hard thing to do. I'd rather just recreate and waste a few hours of my work time than use a lesser quality piece of software just incase Adobe burns down and loses all its source files which somehow breaks my working copy.

What age are we living in where if one building burns down all the source code is gone? I'm a small independent game developer yet even I keep my source files dotted around the place.

[glossywhite]

Then I'll move on, it's not exactly a hard thing to do. I'd rather just recreate and waste a few hours of my work time than use a lesser quality piece of software just incase Adobe burns down and loses all its source files which somehow breaks my working copy.

What age are we living in where if one building burns down all the source code is gone? I'm a small independent game developer yet even I keep my source files dotted around the place.

ROFL!! "lesser quality" :D :D :D

Now that proves your lack of knowledge, beyond *any* shadow of a doubt.

[Rhalliwell1]

So, let us imagine a scenario where "X corp" burns down, and with it goes the only copy of the source of their best selling product (they may not have backups elsewhere - you cannot tell me they definitely would)

Your saying Apple and/or Microsoft don't keep backups of their code? Or are you making unrealistic speculations to try to prove a point? If so, come back down to earth and think about what goes on in the REAL world.

[glossywhite]

Your saying Apple and/or Microsoft don't keep backups of their code? Or are you making unrealistic speculations to try to prove a point? If so, come back down to earth and think about what goes on in the REAL world.

Noone can plan for the unexpected - nothing is foolproof, but however, it was a "scenario" okay, nothing more.

[Rhalliwell1]

Noone can plan for the unexpected - nothing is foolproof, but however, it was a "scenario" okay, nothing more.

If no one can plan for the unexpected, 'what if' the internet broke? what would happen to all the open source project then?

[allmIne]

If no one can plan for the unexpected, 'what if' the internet broke? what would happen to all the open source project then?

This. Is. Awesome!

[Zombie Acorn]

If no one can plan for the unexpected, 'what if' the internet broke? what would happen to all the open source project then?

What if the world splits in half and monsters rule the world for a thousand years?

it could happen.

[podiki]

Having said that though, that I only buy Mac hardware to run OS/X, all my other machines run Ubuntu. I find it more predictable and easier to configure than Windows. Windows is also horribly slow for no apparent reason. Well, one apparent reason is the virus scanner of course.
Ubuntu has the right mix of gui and command line for me, but then I'm a Java developer who uses a lot of command line tools.

[maflynn]

The OP seems very misguided in regards to commercial software vs. free.

99.99% of the people don't want, need, plan on or know how to compile source code, so having access to said source code is a waste.

Companies have something called offsite backup and DRP (Disaster Recovery Plans) in case their data center is struck by a meteor they can continue operating. There is a greater chance of the world spiraling into the sun then adobe "losing" the source code to flash.

Making money is not evil, and it is necessary, even in so called communist countries people make money. Having an unhealthy attitude/fixation is something else. This country and the modern benefits we enjoy were not from someone giving away technology but inventing something and selling it. We enjoy a lot of benefits thanks to capitalism.

I buy or use software based on need. Some of it is commercial and some of it is open source. I use Open Office because its a better performing product on the Mac then MS office. Plus I'm mostly in Linux and so that's really the only option.

Open Source software is never going to over take or displace commercial software, i.e., Open Office killing off MS office. Its just not going to happen.

Companies can dedicate millions of dollars to R&D and produce a product that does some very specialized tasks and it can provide support. Just compare Gimp with Photoshop, there's a ton more features that PS has over Gimp.

Where is the support to open office or linux - A forum? I doubt very much many businesses want to spend their time posting questions on various forums, waiting days to see if a possible solution was posted to fix an immediate problem. That's why Red Hat is doing so well. They took Linux and for a fee (a very large fee) provide support, so I suppose they're just as evil as MS because they're selling something and making money ;)

[Dagless]

ROFL!! "lesser quality" :D :D :D

Now that proves your lack of knowledge, beyond *any* shadow of a doubt.

Show me a free alternative to these applications, I've looked myself and I even use free apps that I found (Audacity, Pixen etc). There are no good free alternatives for Final Cut, Logic, Shake, Maya, Photoshop CS4, Multimedia Fusion 2 or Camsatia. They simply don't exist. There are freeware attempts but they are literally lesser quality products by a most epic gap.
There also isn't a free alternative to the games I play for fun after a working day. No free L4D2, TF2 or any of the DS/PSP games I play.

Lack of knowledge my arse, why are you being so condescending in all of this? I know what the free market is all about. From 2002-2007 I was a freeware game developer completely funding my own projects, I've worked on freeware software and for companies with the same ideology and even given lectures about it. So less of your high horse tone okay?

[maflynn]

Show me a free alternative to these applications, I've looked myself and I even use free apps that I found (Audacity, Pixen etc). There are no good free alternatives for Final Cut, Logic, Photoshop, Multimedia Fusion 2. They simply don't exist.
Add Lightroom and Aperture to the mix as well.

I've searched and there's absolutely nothing that comes close to what either product does DAM with non-destructive image editing.

[glossywhite]

Show me a free alternative to these applications, I've looked myself and I even use free apps that I found (Audacity, Pixen etc). There are no good free alternatives for Final Cut, Logic, Shake, Maya, Photoshop CS4, Multimedia Fusion 2 or Camsatia. They simply don't exist. There are freeware attempts but they are literally lesser quality products by a most epic gap.
There also isn't a free alternative to the games I play for fun after a working day. No free L4D2, TF2 or any of the DS/PSP games I play.

Lack of knowledge my arse, why are you being so condescending in all of this? I know what the free market is all about. From 2002-2007 I was a freeware game developer completely funding my own projects, I've worked on freeware software and for companies with the same ideology and even given lectures about it. So less of your high horse tone okay?


"Freeware"?... that is not the same thing as free software - don't you know the difference?.


The OP seems very misguided in regards to commercial software vs. free.

99.99% of the people don't want, need, plan on or know how to compile source code, so having access to said source code is a waste.

Companies have something called offsite backup and DRP (Disaster Recovery Plans) in case their data center is struck by a meteor they can continue operating. There is a greater chance of the world spiraling into the sun then adobe "losing" the source code to flash.

Making money is not evil, and it is necessary, even in so called communist countries people make money. Having an unhealthy attitude/fixation is something else. This country and the modern benefits we enjoy were not from someone giving away technology but inventing something and selling it. We enjoy a lot of benefits thanks to capitalism.

I buy or use software based on need. Some of it is commercial and some of it is open source. I use Open Office because its a better performing product on the Mac then MS office. Plus I'm mostly in Linux and so that's really the only option.

Open Source software is never going to over take or displace commercial software, i.e., Open Office killing off MS office. Its just not going to happen.

Companies can dedicate millions of dollars to R&D and produce a product that does some very specialized tasks and it can provide support. Just compare Gimp with Photoshop, there's a ton more features that PS has over Gimp.

Where is the support to open office or linux - A forum? I doubt very much many businesses want to spend their time posting questions on various forums, waiting days to see if a possible solution was posted to fix an immediate problem. That's why Red Hat is doing so well. They took Linux and for a fee (a very large fee) provide support, so I suppose they're just as evil as MS because they're selling something and making money ;)

Well of course I understand how free software & open-source companies make money - obviously people need to eat. The GNU/Linux support is where the money is - it is called "free as-in FREEDOM" - stopping people making a living is not what it is about, as you no doubt know. I think you may have either underestimated my knowledge of the subject about which you assume you know more than me, or you have just been deliberately misunderstanding me, in order to make yourself feel superior, which isn't a problem - feeling is fine with me ;)

You categorically saying that:

"Open Source software is never going to over take or displace commercial software, i.e., Open Office killing off MS office. Its just not going to happen."

could be perceived as being rather arrogant of you to state this - how can you possibly say that one thing or the other will *definitely* happen or not?. You don't. In the meantime, we are all entitled to use whatever we wish, including yourself of course.

[allmIne]

If the myth that the corporations who sell you your software are doing it in YOUR best interests, is to be perpetuated, then I'd like someone to show me HOW this is so.

Nobody in the history of the world has ever perpetuated this myth. Except you.

Why would I think Apple are producing something with my best interests in mind? They're producing software that allows me to complete a task, so they gain a monetary reward.

Freeware (or free software, as you prefer) is produced with the same intentions, with no monetary reward. (And is therefore generally inferior). Neither are in the 'best interests' of anybody.

Edit: Glossy, reference your post above - you really need to respond to what's actually in the argument you've quoted, rather than pick on the semantics. You won't get taken seriously otherwise.

Glad to see you did so, now!

[Cromulent]

*sigh* this is evidence in itself, that people just don't have a clue about what *real* freedom is. Have we lost our way SO much, that real freedom is a foreign concept?.

http://fsf.org

Now you can find out about freedom, and sharing for the greater good, if you chose to do so. :)

If you want true freedom use a BSD operating system like FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD.

I have quite a few issues with Linux. First and foremost is the (untrue) implication that it is the one true open source operating system and that it is somehow better than the alternatives just because it is free. Lets not forget that Linux has quite a lot of commercial baggage associated with it. An operating system that is much freer of commercial baggage would be OpenBSD which is fantastic to use, more secure than Linux (and arguably any other operating system) and is extremely well documented.

Linux just plays the ignorance game as everyone assumes it is the best because it is in the media so much. Try some other operating systems and you may well realise that Linux is not as great as people make out.

[glossywhite]

If you want true freedom use a BSD operating system like FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD.

I have quite a few issues with Linux. First and foremost is the (untrue) implication that it is the one true open source operating system and that it is somehow better than the alternatives just because it is free. Lets not forget that Linux has quite a lot of commercial baggage associated with it. An operating system that is much freer of commercial baggage would be OpenBSD which is fantastic to use, more secure than Linux (and arguably any other operating system) and is extremely well documented.

Linux just plays the ignorance game as everyone assumes it is the best because it is in the media so much. Try some other operating systems and you may well realise that Linux is not as great as people make out.

Well okay, but that is in your opinion. How many devices on the market use embedded GNU/Linux or just Linux?. Thousands. The majority of Apache servers run GNU/Linux, a great deal of routers run it, set-top boxes for freeview etc, games consoles etc. I respect the efforts of Linus Torvalds immensely, because *as an individual* he wrote an entire kernel from scratch, whereas xBSD is code inherited from Sun Microsystems - hardly the same challenge, although admirable all the same. How many embedded devices run xBSD as opposed to GNU/Linux or Linux?. I would argue nowhere near as many.

If you think it isn't that good, then I respect your viewpoint but I disagree a great deal.

[Cromulent]

whereas xBSD is code inherited from Sun Microsystems - hardly the same challenge, although admirable all the same.

Now you are really showing your ignorance. BSD originated from Berkeley oddly enough. Sun Microsystems had their own flavour of Unix which nowadays is known as Solaris and OpenSolaris and has nothing to do with BSD Unix. Sun´s version of Unix is based on System V which is a completely different branch of the Unix family.

How many embedded devices run xBSD as opposed to GNU/Linux or Linux?. I would argue nowhere near as many.

Frankly it is hard to say. I imagine you are correct though but it really makes no difference. If you are basing your opinion of Linux on the number of embedded devices that make use of it you really are missing a trick.

If you think it isn't that good, then I respect your viewpoint but I disagree a great deal.

Fancy giving any hard reasons as to why you disagree other than the fact that Linux runs more embedded devices?

[Dagless]

"Freeware"?... that is not the same thing as free software - don't you know the difference?.

Thanks for skipping through every other point, no answer for them? Where are the links to free software that is better than the ones I listed?

And of course I know the difference. Freeware, free software, open software, ad-supported, donationware etc. I generally go under the assumption that by saying "freeware" people understand that I mean "software that doesn't cost the user a penny".

So, could I have a proper reply to my earlier post? I'll give you a start;

Multimedia Fusion 2's free alternative; Construct. Buggy and cloned everything from the original, but its getting there. Lacks a Java export and no word on iPhone or Flash export. Your turn.

[gngan]

I disagree with some of your comments - Windows is only comfortable because it is what people are used to, but GNU/Linux is *far* superior in every single way, except for mass adoption.

I think you will find that in the near future, free software will make headway, and gradually push proprietary OS' out, as people begin to value their freedom once again. If you don't *know* about your freedoms, then you cannot learn how to protect them from being taken away from you, which is essentially what non-free software does to people - you are locked in, and if you *really* don't care about that, then something is worryingly wrong.

I love Macs and I *love* the whole Mac experience - I am by NO means implying that Apple are "evil" - I wouldn't take my views to such dramatic extremes without hard proof, but paying hand over fist for software that you will maybe used 2-3 times, is just ridiculous.

Humanity *NEEDS* to start sharing more, and giving back for the greater good. You may disagree or agree - that is your own choice, but that is where the moral fabric has disintegrated; pumping money all in one direction, to big corporations who *really* don't care about you.

I value my freedom and the ability to copy and share, way more than I value a Mac, or *any* computer or object, whatsoever, and so should you, before things get so bad that it will be a nightmare to backtrack.

:)

It's funny how you wanted to check out other OS when you are in love with Apple's product. You didn't understand why people would JB their iPhone and now you are saying the freedom and sharing. Weird.

[yg17]

Noone can plan for the unexpected - nothing is foolproof, but however, it was a "scenario" okay, nothing more.

I can guarantee you that Adobe, Apple, Microsoft, etc, have copies of their source code in all corners of the world such that not even the unexpected can destroy all copies of it.

What if the world splits in half and monsters rule the world for a thousand years?

it could happen.

Yeah, that's basically what would have to happen for all copies of the source to be destroyed. A worldwide, devastating disaster. And at that point, updates to Photoshop are going to be the least of anyone's worries.

[Tomorrow]

Please note - I am simply expressing my *personal* opinions, and I don't expect anyone to agree, nor do I disrespect anyone for their views - this is my free speech, but in the same respect you are free to express it back to me, as long as you don't perceive my passion for what I believe, as arrogance and pig-headedness, because I am not here to do that :D.

Really? Well, let's just see about that:

I am just saying that it bears thinking about... unless using closed-source, means you must be closed-minded, in which case I'll let you off, because any further discussion at that point in time would be futile.

...GNU/Linux is *far* superior in every single way, except for mass adoption.

...if you *really* don't care about that, then something is worryingly wrong.

...paying hand over fist for software that you will maybe used 2-3 times, is just ridiculous.

I value my freedom and the ability to copy and share, way more than I value a Mac, or *any* computer or object, whatsoever, and so should you

How open-mindedly sanctimonious of you.

*sigh* this is evidence in itself, that people just don't have a clue...

I don't see how you can back that up

*nix/GNU/Linux is definitely the way forward - a blind man could see that.

And, by implication, we're idiots for not seeing that.

...you are ignorant, nothing more. I really cannot see how you can justify that rather rubbish comment...

Now that proves your lack of knowledge, beyond *any* shadow of a doubt.

don't you know the difference?

I think you may have either underestimated my knowledge of the subject...

You can come down from your high horse pulpit now. Join us closed-minded, ignorant people, he-who-is-neither-arrogant-nor-pig-headed.

I began using *nix systems in 1990. I went to Linux in 1995. Installed my first distribution in 1996. Hacked kernels. Hand-edited config files. Installed and configured driver wrappers to get it to work with my hardware. Tried to make it my exclusive OS for years.

Finally, in 2001, I realized it was a waste of time and went back to using Windows, which I no longer use outside of work.

I can understand your love-fest for free software, because I did my best to embrace the movement, as well. I honestly do. But in the end, the product is just not as good as a commercially supported and developed product. StarOffice, which begat OpenOffice, just plain didn't work correctly with the documents I used. It was slow. It wasn't completely compatible. It was harder to configure than MS Office. It was worth $150 to just buy the commercial product which worked, rather than spend countless hours trying to force a free product to do something that it just couldn't do.

Free and open source software has been around for a long time, and still hasn't made much of an inroad into market share outside of web hosting. The reason is that it isn't a superior product for those applications. Companies will not intentionally ignore a superior and less expensive product if it's made available to them; yet, almost nobody is using GNU/Linux as a desktop OS in business. Why is that? You can't claim it's a conspiracy by the commercial software developers; firms are absolutely free to choose whichever OS platform they can afford, and we both know that GNU/Linux is affordable from a purchase standpoint. So why aren't firms implementing it? It's simple: it doesn't suit their needs.

As far as our "freedom" with software goes - I don't really care. The software companies aren't out to get me; they're out to create a product that people will buy because it fills a need for them. They're neither good nor evil. I don't care if I don't get to edit the application. I don't care if I'm not allowed to make all the copies of my MS Office CD that I want and give them away. Not one bit of that is important to me, and I imagine it isn't important to the majority of people who buy it (purely my conjecture; I haven't done a formal survey).

I will ask that you not try to engage us in a discussion that begins with "I'm not trying to be arrogant or pig-headed" and ends with "you're all closed-minded and ignorant for not agreeing with me," all the while saying "it's just my opinion, nothing more."

[glossywhite]

^^ Brilliant bit of editing there - arranging clippings from a thread, to suit your needs - genius mate :rolleyes:.


I apologise for coming across as an idiot (which I have been here) and annoying you folks - this thread is obviously aimed at the wrong crowd, so how could I expect a rational debate from such closed minded and argumentative, pompous people?.

Yet more proof that people don't care about humanity as a whole, and are just out for themselves. I didn't NEED to prove this, when you guys did it all for me.

Odd... I'm *SURE* I requested this thread to be locked around... 7 hours ago :confused:

[dmr727]

LOL - this thread is awesome.

[mkrishnan]

In fact this thread exceeded the amount of awesomeness allowed in any one thread on MacRumors and is therefore put in that special place we reserve for the most truly awesome of all threads. :) Cheers.