Crop Cirles

[chmorley]

I just noticed polls at CNN.com and MSNBC on this topic. I thought neither gave enough options, and wondered how people here might respond.

Additionally, if there are any that are real, where do they come from? Aliens? Earth-generated energy fields? The Canadians?

So.....?

Chris

[alex_ant]

I thought it was pretty well established that they're created by men with rakes in the middle of the night.

Or maybe it's just that whenever I hear "I believe in UFOs," I translate that to "I was sexually abused as a child"...

[chmorley]

Not quite well-established.

It is clear that some are man-made, but it's not clear that they are all fake. Of course, it could simply be that some are simply able to keep the secret better.

There are also lots of people who believe they are not the result of alien visits, but other sorts of natural phenomena.

Here's (http://www.msnbc.com/news/787696.asp) a pretty good story from MSNBC on the subject.

Chris

[eyelikeart]

it's hard to really gauge it...but I completely believe in other beings among us in the universe...and I also firmly feel there are a lot of things in which the government hides...

I think they are real...although there are always the cases where someone wants to jump on the wave and get his/her glory for a few minutes too...

[AlphaTech]

The few that are not created by humans, or earth energy fields are probably created by adolescent alien's that are just trying to get a rise out of us. I can see it now... they fly over the field, do the pattern, and then hide and watch to see our reactions... :rolleyes: :p It could also be a secret government agency d*cking around with magnetic fields to see what they can do with them. Could be one of many military satellites making the patterns, which would explain the size of them.

[Ensign Paris]

ok, its not brillient but its getting there:

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ensign Paris
ok, its not brillient but its getting there:

that's gives me an idea

now i have to get the miracle grow:p

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by chmorley

Additionally, if there are any that are real, where do they come from? Aliens? Earth-generated energy fields? The Canadians?

If you think Canadians make them do they count as man-made? ;)

[Ensign Paris]

Mental Note: Meet Canadians

I have not met a Canadian (outside of forums) so I really should meet some, then I might know what they are like compared with USAiens.

Ensign

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Ensign Paris
Mental Note: Meet Canadians

I have not met a Canadian (outside of forums) so I really should meet some, then I might know what they are like compared with USAiens.

They are evil, blood-sucking bastards who do nothing except give us their cold fronts and ruin our warm weather. Duh! Everybody knows that! :)

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by alex_ant

They are evil, blood-sucking bastards who do nothing except give us their cold fronts and ruin our warm weather. Duh! Everybody knows that! :)

I'd take those cold fronts right about now... I would love it if it would drop about 20°(F).

[chmorley]

Originally posted by asurace

If you think Canadians make them do they count as man-made? ;)
I believe this would qualify as being done by aliens or supernatural forces.

Some suggest it is the result of "remote viewing"--assumedly also done by the friggin' Canadians.

Chris

[G4scott]

What are the odds that we are the only intelligent beings in this vast universe? Of course, if Aliens can make designs in fields by mowing down the crops, why don't they make designs in our cities by mowing down buildings?

Maybe the aliens (or canadians) are just dicking around with us.

Oh, and do crop circles occur in places other than America?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by G4scott
What are the odds that we are the only intelligent beings in this vast universe? Of course, if Aliens can make designs in fields by mowing down the crops, why don't they make designs in our cities by mowing down buildings?

Maybe the aliens (or canadians) are just dicking around with us.

Oh, and do crop circles occur in places other than America?

perhaps on other planets on their crops

maybe it's an extra terrestrial with a poulan weedeater and a spaceship:rolleyes:

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by G4scott

Oh, and do crop circles occur in places other than America?
Yea, a lot of them occur in England.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by G4scott
What are the odds that we are the only intelligent beings in this vast universe?
Well, the question should be, "What are the odds that alien spacecraft have 'landed' on earth numerous times, flattening crops in patterns that have been shown to be perfectly reproducible by men using simple tools such as pieces of wood attached to a rope, and on top of this, what are the odds that nobody is ever able to provide any evidence that these crop patterns are indeed caused by UFOs?"

Just because it's not likely we're alone in the universe doesn't mean aliens are using our corn fields as parking lots. There is actually quite a bit of evidence supporting the skeptics' opinions that crop circles are hoaxes. Why do they only happen in the US and Britain? Why are there never any detailed reports of the UFO landings consistent from witness to witness? Why do all available UFO photos depict nothing more than blurry, distant blobs? If the spaceships landing in the cornfields are so big, it wouldn't take a massive telephoto lens or anything but the simplest point & shoot camera to capture them full-frame... Unless the aliens have mastered invisibility or are able to occupy a higher dimension. Which would clash very strongly with Occam's Razor.

If it looks like a hoax and smells like a hoax, it's probably a hoax. I mean seriously, it's called the Scientific Method. Some people need a refresher course.
Of course, if Aliens can make designs in fields by mowing down the crops, why don't they make designs in our cities by mowing down buildings?
I guess they like to imitate the people who make the hoaxes in the cornfields. :)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Which would clash very strongly with Occam's Razor.

If it looks like a hoax and smells like a hoax, it's probably a hoax. I mean seriously, it's called the Scientific Method. Some people need a refresher course.
"Some people need a refresher course"? Wasn't this the tag line that annoying computer support guy used on those SNL skits?

Besides, you're taking liberty with "the scientific method". As a scientist, I take issue with this.

The scientific method does not apply to crop circles as a phenomenon. The scientific method applies to phenomena that can be scientifically tested. How have crop circles been scientifically tested? They haven't. However, the argument of parsimony (or Occam's Razor) is a bit more interesting.

Occam's Razor states that, all things being equal, the simplest explanation that accounts for all the data is likely the right one. It has also been stated as "the fewer assumptions an explanation of a phenomenon depends on, the better it is."

I'd actually bet there are some who would argue about which explanation has fewer assumptions--that hoaxers plan, calculate, then carry out all crop circles that have ever existed in the middle of the night, or that aliens from other planets have visited us and left (some of) these as signs, or that some are the result of other natural (unknown) phenomena.

It's clear that at least some are hoaxes. Enough people have admitted to making some of them that this is established.

Anyway, the most important point in the scientific method is to remain agnostic when there is not sufficient proof for something. Or maybe you need a refresher course. ;) :D

Chris

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by chmorley
I'd actually bet there are some who would argue about which explanation has fewer assumptions--that hoaxers plan, calculate, then carry out all crop circles that have ever existed in the middle of the night, or that aliens from other planets have visited us and left (some of) these as signs, or that some are the result of other natural (unknown) phenomena.
Yes, I would definitely say that #1 has far fewer assumptions and seems a lot more likely. I think you underestimate the numbers of crazy drunken rural people with too much time on their hands.
Anyway, the most important point in the scientific method is to remain agnostic when there is not sufficient proof for something. Or maybe you need a refresher course. ;) :D
I absolutely agree. I never said "Nobody has a right to believe crop circles are caused by UFOs." I said that available evidence strongly suggests that crop circles are not caused by UFOs, and by bringing up the scientific method I meant to imply that adherence to said method would most likely lead one to conclude that the crop circle phenomenon is scientifically un-testable and therefore scientifically invalid. This, combined with the extensive evidence against it and little evidence to support it, puts it in roughly the same category as the 90-foot, invisible, incorporeal, undetectable Tyrannosaurus Rex that lives in my backyard: the "very extremely highly unlikely" category.

So I'll respect people's freedom to believe what they wish, but I do reserve the right to laugh and point. :) And even though the notion that UFOs make crop circles seems to be very very very very unlikely to me, I do think an invasion of Canada would be in order just to see what the buggers are hiding under that cloak of kindness and relative neutrality...

Alex

[chmorley]

Originally posted by alex_ant
...and by bringing up the scientific method I meant to imply that adherence to said method would most likely lead one to conclude that the crop circle phenomenon is scientifically un-testable and therefore scientifically invalid.
Not exactly. It is more simply not yet addressed by science--as is true of God. In the latter case, there is no way to apply the scientific method to the belief system. This does not imply that God does not exist or that people ought not to believe in God. It does imply that the scientific method can offer no proof one way or the other, and should stay the hell out of the way. It's like using a thermometer to measure speed--it's the wrong tool. People make this mistake all the time, hanging their belief systems on "science" in order to make them seem more provable (or due to a misunderstanding of the implication of unproven phenomonena).

So simply, if science doesn't address it, that doesn't imply that scientists ought to take this as proof that something doesn't exist. "If it looks like a hoax and smells like a hoax, it's probably a hoax," is not the scientific method; it is simply common sense.

Of course, common sense tells us the sun revolves around the flat earth...

And we should kick Canada's ass just for good measure.

Chris

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by chmorley
Not exactly. It is more simply not yet addressed by science--as is true of God. In the latter case, there is no way to apply the scientific method to the belief system. This does not imply that God does not exist or that people ought not to believe in God. It does imply that the scientific method can offer no proof one way or the other. People make this mistake all the time, hanging their belief systems on "science" in order to make them seem more provable (or due to a misunderstanding of the implication of unproven phenomonena).
Sigh... I guess it wouldn't help to mention I don't believe in God, either. :) You are right, though - I stand corrected. I suppose I attempted to defend my argument with science when I should have used probability or reason instead.
So simply, if science doesn't address it, that doesn't imply that scientists ought to take this as proof that something doesn't exist. "If it looks like a hoax and smells like a hoax, it's probably a hoax," is not the scientific method; it is simply common sense.

Of course, common sense tells us the sun revolves around the flat earth...
Good point.

I STILL reserve the right to laugh and point, though. :D

[chmorley]

Originally posted by alex_ant
I STILL reserve the right to laugh and point, though. :D
Fair enough. Interesting, though, that 67% of the people who have responded to this poll believe that at least some of them are not man-made.

Myself, I remain agnostic on the issue (except about the Canadians).

Chris

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by chmorley

Fair enough. Interesting, though, that 67% of the people who have responded to this poll believe that at least some of them are not man-made.

Myself, I remain agnostic on the issue (except about the Canadians).

Chris

Are you counting Canadians, Brits and red-necks as human??? I know that the third are not human (at least not modern man :eek: ). I have met one Canadian that WAS human, but he also didn't admit to being Canadian all that much...

IF they are created by extratescular beings (that's not a typo ;)) then I'm 99% certain that it is a prank.

[Mr. Anderson]

Well, if they are created by aliens, it shows they have a sense of humor. What else could it be - its sort of like teasing/taunting - 'Go ahead and try and figure it out....'

I'm not sure what I believe, its so absurd, yet there really aren't any good explanations.

D

[mymemory]

Ok people think about something:

Why these shapes only happend in the US and England?
Why there are not shapes like that in Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil, Japan, Argentina, etc?

Or may be the Aliens whants a North American citizenship too?

Every time I see those tv programs about aliens I ask myself the same question. There shold be aliens out there but for get about "teenage alien writting grafittis on earth".

Alway every alien encounter have been documented 95% in the US and some other countries but never below Mexico. I guess that is only US producers sci-fi stuff.

Natural disasters are every where, wars are every where, but Aliens... only in the US.:eek: :eek: :confused:

[mischief]

We Canadians don't really have a Millitary.... We just have a massive, worldwide covert Psy-ops program..... which you have inadvertantly stumbled on..... I'm afraid everyone who has read this thread will be having highly improbable fatal accidents very soon and some may even be mysteriously killed by their Macs while reading this post.... Nothing personal, I'm just doing my job.:D

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by chmorley

Fair enough. Interesting, though, that 67% of the people who have responded to this poll believe that at least some of them are not man-made.
Heh heh... The more there are, the easier it is to know where to point. :)

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, if they are created by aliens, it shows they have a sense of humor. What else could it be - its sort of like teasing/taunting - 'Go ahead and try and figure it out....'

I'm not sure what I believe, its so absurd, yet there really aren't any good explanations.
Is it that there aren't any good explanations, or is it that you haven't looked for any good explanations? :)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by mymemory
Ok people think about something:

Why these shapes only happend in the US and England?
Why there are not shapes like that in Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil, Japan, Argentina, etc?

Or may be the Aliens whants a North American citizenship too?
Sort of right. I know that they have shown up in Canada, Germany, and other parts of Europe (so it's not just the US and England. You're right, though--I don't know of any in South America or Asia. Maybe they don't have the appropriate visas and such to land there.

It's funny to me that I am ending up sounding like a believer. :rolleyes:

I'm not.

Chris

[chmorley]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Is it that there aren't any good explanations, or is it that you haven't looked for any good explanations? :)
I am curious about this one, alex.

I agree that hoaxing does seem the likeliest explanation, but it has some problems. Some have clearly been created by humans--as some have admitted as much. But it seems just a bit odd that there are none with big mistakes or that are half-finished.

There was apparently a pretty good documentary on the subject. The guy who narrates the thing has a pretty stron opinion on the subject. If you're interested, go here (http://www.cropcirclesthemovie.com/) and check out the brief cut on hoaxing.

Chris

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by chmorley
I agree that hoaxing does seem the likeliest explanation, but it has some problems. Some have clearly been created by humans--as some have admitted as much. But it seems just a bit odd that there are none with big mistakes or that are half-finished.
That's true. I viewed some of the crop circle images in the link you provided and most of them are very impressive. The 9th and 10th ones look dissimilar to the rest, being relatively imperfect, simplistic, and unimpressive overall - which leads me to think that if some crop circles were indeed real, these two would be the hoaxes.

#1, 2, 4, 6, and 12 are very impressive, though. Achievable by humans? I would think so, but it would take a lot of work. And then would come the questions of where the hoaxers get their practice, and why they would go to such trouble, and why these formations occur so frequently in the US and Britain and not so frequently elsewhere, and how they can be so perfect time and time again.

I wonder: Why have crop circles, if I'm not mistaken, only started to appear relatively recently? I wonder if it would be possible to place the first crop circle appearance in the same timeframe as the first commercially available portable GPS devices, as one of those would dramatically simplify the whole process of creating them.

I know that it is said that there are fundamental changes made to the collapsed crops on the cellular level. But the skeptics argue that the tests used to "prove" that these changes could not be caused by humans are not well-documented and not scientifically valid. So I don't know who to believe on that point.

What makes crop circles caused by aliens so hard to believe, to me, is that it sounds so farfetched. I know, we're probably not alone in the universe, and I'm aware that there are said to be higher dimensions of space, and so on, but damnit, aliens. Okay, fair enough, I see the circles, and I'm impressed, but could somebody produce some real credible evidence that these are created by aliens, please. I don't mean blurry, grainy footage of some white blob flitting around the frame of an old VHS-C camcorder, I mean real, sharp, high-resolution, obviously-not-Photoshopped photographs taken by many different people from many different angles, consistent eyewitness reports from 50 or 100 people who don't know each other, maybe some audio, maybe some firsthand reports from spy/weather/scientific/communications satellites, etc.

Speaking of Photoshop, I wonder how much evidence supports the idea that all crop circles are actually real? Are there any 35mm negatives of the really impressive ones I can see for myself? I don't know how many people go up in helicopters and see them firsthand - especially the elaborate ones - but if the number is very low, that would trigger a warning light in my mind. All the crop circle photos on the page you linked to are quite low-res, which means they don't have a lot of detail, which would make them relatively easy to fake. Even a half-page photo in a magazine need not be more than 300dpi. How much work would it take for a professional graphic artist to fake a complex but easily geometrically definable pattern in a visually sparse cornfield? I think it would be a lot easier than actually going out and making the crop circle. Anyone here skilled at Photoshop and want to see what they can come up with? :) This doesn't address video footage of these complex patterns, but, well, Jurassic Park came out in 1993, and the computers used to model the CGI in that movie now cost about $50 apiece on eBay... so, hmmmmm.

Alex

[krossfyter]

i got a question for you two...

if some or all crop circles are man made why hasent anyone caught anyone in the act of making them??? or has that already happend?

[alex_ant]

I'm sure it's happened, but I can't (or I'm too lazy to :)) support that with any evidence... although to argue for the pro-crop-circles-made-by-aliens side, catching a few crop circle makers in the act doesn't mean that they're all hoaxes.

[chmorley]

I am not sure if anyone has been caught making them. I doubt it would make the news (although it might make some of the tabloid shows). Some people have acknowledged making some of them, and have demonstrated how they did it. However, the ones I have seen them make are very simple.

At that site I posted above, check out some of the video stuff. These are real things, with people on the ground walking through them and all. Also, the comments the narrator has about the entire phenomenon is interesting. I don't think he's being perfectly rational about the whole thing, but he makes some very interesting points.

[Ensign Paris]

When I finish School (only 8 months to go) I am now planning as well as a road trip a huge great big apple sign in the middle of a corn field ;)

[topicolo]

Originally posted by chmorley

Sort of right. I know that they have shown up in Canada, Germany, and other parts of Europe (so it's not just the US and England. You're right, though--I don't know of any in South America or Asia. Maybe they don't have the appropriate visas and such to land there.

It's funny to me that I am ending up sounding like a believer. :rolleyes:

I'm not.

Chris
yeah, but south america has those cases of wierd cattle mutilation. In case you don't know about this, cattle have been found with all of their blood drained, their genitals and anus (ani?) cleanly (surgically?) removed with no real signs of any struggle.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by topicolo

yeah, but south america has those cases of wierd cattle mutilation. In case you don't know about this, cattle have been found with all of their blood drained, their genitals and anus (ani?) cleanly (surgically?) removed with no real signs of any struggle.

Makes me wonder... What would aliens want with bull-balls and assholes??? :eek: :eek: :D

[alex_ant]

Well, geez, if assholes are what the aliens want, all they need to do is fly up to Natick, MA.... :D

[mischief]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Well, geez, if assholes are what the aliens want, all they need to do is fly up to Natick, MA.... :D

AaahhhHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHA!!!!

Oh... ****... (Gets up, wipes eyes..... reads post again and falls back over laughing.)

Oh.. Jeez.... pant pant. Whew! I'm glad I left that setup alone for you to find. :D

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Well, geez, if assholes are what the aliens want, all they need to do is fly up to Natick, MA.... :D

Considering how they go after people in the mid-west, you are more at risk there... Especially with all the rednecks out there (you can find one in the mirror :p). Remember, all you guys out there actually go for the anal probes.. :eek: :p :D

Statistics show, that the average family in MN, has seven vehicles, five (or more) children and only three tires (for the vehicles). :p They also have 'mobile' homes that never go anywhere. :p

[topicolo]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Well, geez, if assholes are what the aliens want, all they need to do is fly up to Natick, MA.... :D

:D :D :D :D Good one :cool:

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by chmorley
I agree that hoaxing does seem the likeliest explanation, but it has some problems. Some have clearly been created by humans--as some have admitted as much. But it seems just a bit odd that there are none with big mistakes or that are half-finished.

You have a criterion problem here. How do you define "a big mistake" or "finished" with something as ill-defined as crop circles (not all of which are circular, for instance). I suspect you'll never hear somebody say, "that's a half-finished, messed-up crop circle." Either it will be complete enough that people will say "it's a crop circle" or it will be screwy enough that people will say "those darn kids tore up my wheatfield."

As far as people being caught, keep in mind that "mysterious crop circle of unknown origin" is news, while "kids caught vandalizing Farmer Brown's wheatfield" generally won't even make the police blotter. I can't prove it, but I think I'm on fairly safe ground in assuming some people have been caught in the act.

[Mr. Anderson]

Ok, there was a show on the TLC tonight that was on Crop Circles - unless there is some sort of man made technology that we don't know about, they weren't made by humans. There was one crop circle that was comprised of over 750 separate circles, and I've attached a pic of a smaller one I found online.

There is no way someone could do these at night in darkness and get the accuracy they do.

Its made by a machine or something else.

D

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by alex_ant
I'm sure it's happened, but I can't (or I'm too lazy to :)) support that with any evidence... although to argue for the pro-crop-circles-made-by-aliens side, catching a few crop circle makers in the act doesn't mean that they're all hoaxes.


yeah true that man. however if most of them are hoaxes we should have some of that evidence by now...dont you think? if any human is creating them period it perplexes me that no one has been caught....just some people saying that they have done it etc. etc.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by krossfyter



yeah true that man. however if most of them are hoaxes we should have some of that evidence by now...dont you think? if any human is creating them period it perplexes me that no one has been caught....just some people saying that they have done it etc. etc.

is this sarcasm ?

hundreds of people have been caught. people have even video taped themselves doing it. many of the designs people calim could not be made by humans have been revealed to be man-made. people have demonstrated how they did it on tv on a number of occasions. there are many different methods used none of which are all that elaborate (just well planned).

there really is absolutely no mystery left to crop circles except as to why some people continue to think that they arent man-made.

[jefhatfield]

two things

1) symmetry would be much easier (but not a cinch) than something asymmetrical like a giant picasso cubist shape on a large scale

2) scientists (in this one scientific show i saw on crop circles) have looked for radiation, man made cutting tools, and searched for residues of chemicals when a pair of german crop circle makers confessed to a few crop circles they made (which they were able to locate exactly and recreate)

if i remember correctly, they did not use chemicals or radiation or cutting tools

they strapped on boards to their feet and flattened out the given area and used a string for reference which is actually very accurate when done correctly ( i am a part time landscaper so i can attest to that)

this is so simple it was beyond the scope of what scientists were looking for so it stumped them for awhile...the obvious is not always that

now that is what i saw on the show and the shapes they made are far more complex than the geometric shapes i have seen

now give me a mile long venus drawing and then i will be amazed!

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Ok, there was a show on the TLC tonight that was on Crop Circles - unless there is some sort of man made technology that we don't know about, they weren't made by humans. There was one crop circle that was comprised of over 750 separate circles, and I've attached a pic of a smaller one I found online.

There is no way someone could do these at night in darkness and get the accuracy they do.

Its made by a machine or something else.

I wish I could have seen the show.

Jefhatfield is a part time landscaper, so he's probably got unique some tricks he could use to make it easier to make a good crop pattern. But here's how I would envision it - and using my method, I think a group of 3 could do it quite easily in a matter of hours. Here's what this group of 3 would need:

- One GPS device per person

(or)

- One compass and one long spool of measuring string per person

Instructions for the GPS method:

Find the exact longitude & latitude coordinates of a point in a field. Get a piece of graph paper, or a computer, and draw a design of circles fanning out from the center point as in that crop circle. Trace along the graph's x and y axes to find the exact coordinates of each of the points you drew, and then go out into the field, and using your graph drawing as a reference, use your handheld GPS device to make a circle where every point on the graphis. That's all it would take to make a flawless pattern.

Instructions for the compass & string method:

Go out into the field and make the center circle, then use compass directions and your calculus skills (if you even need them) to fan out in three spiral arms. Use the string to make sure you've got the right distance between circles and from the center point. It might be easier to do all the distance & direction calculations beforehand.

Yes, all this is quite impractical, and the question still remains about WHY people would do this, but there aren't that many crop circles happening, and I believe this explanation is much more realistic than that that the aliens are doing it to trick us.

Alex

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by alex_ant

I wish I could have seen the show.

Jefhatfield is a part time landscaper, so he's probably got unique some tricks he could use to make it easier to make a good crop pattern. But here's how I would envision it - and using my method, I think a group of 3 could do it quite easily in a matter of hours. Here's what this group of 3 would need:

- One GPS device per person

(or)

- One compass and one long spool of measuring string per person

Instructions for the GPS method:

Find the exact longitude & latitude coordinates of a point in a field. Get a piece of graph paper, or a computer, and draw a design of circles fanning out from the center point as in that crop circle. Trace along the graph's x and y axes to find the exact coordinates of each of the points you drew, and then go out into the field, and using your graph drawing as a reference, use your handheld GPS device to make a circle where every point on the graphis. That's all it would take to make a flawless pattern.

Instructions for the compass & string method:

Go out into the field and make the center circle, then use compass directions and your calculus skills (if you even need them) to fan out in three spiral arms. Use the string to make sure you've got the right distance between circles and from the center point. It might be easier to do all the distance & direction calculations beforehand.

Yes, all this is quite impractical, and the question still remains about WHY people would do this, but there aren't that many crop circles happening, and I believe this explanation is much more realistic than that that the aliens are doing it to trick us.

Alex

i could see the gps thing now and see it as some hard work

but before gps came along and when there were big crop circles, it is interesting that someone took all that time to make such a big piece of art/hoax

if there is some natural electrical or magnetic phenomena, as in what makes crystals, then it might explain it

plants grow with branches in a pattern in nature called "e"...the same as a conch shell...and the same as the way water drains down a sink...gravitational forces

and the tides in the oceans are quite interesting, too

maybe something like that makes the circles...some of the circles?

but i highly doubt aliens did it...why would they do it? to be funny? and if they could make it thousands/millions of light years to earth, would they need what would be crude drawings for such an advanced being to help them find their way on this tiny planet being that they traveled the galaxy or galaxies to get here?

imagine getting here by boat in the 1400s but then needing a map to help find one's way around a swimming pool? it's not likely the aliens would need to deface our crops to find their way around or feel a need to "make a statement":p

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


is this sarcasm ?

hundreds of people have been caught. people have even video taped themselves doing it. many of the designs people calim could not be made by humans have been revealed to be man-made. people have demonstrated how they did it on tv on a number of occasions. there are many different methods used none of which are all that elaborate (just well planned).

there really is absolutely no mystery left to crop circles except as to why some people continue to think that they arent man-made.


of course it wasnt sarcasm. soo cool they have been caught. can you give me a link or something anything? because im intrested in checking that out. i havent heard anything about this so i was simply assuming...not making an absolute though. i just wanted someone to give me some sort of evidence of people being caught doing it. thats all. thanks.

[jefhatfield]

the two german pranksters on the crop circle special i saw on tv did get in trouble for their exploits

it is still destroying property and copycats who do this will also get caught

i have to admit, i thought your comment was also sarcasm...kind of like asking if bears pee in the woods;)

[jefhatfield]

thousands of links appear on the net for and against crop circles including how they are done

here is a link on one way to make your very own crop circle

www.amtsgym-sdbg.dk/as/crop/ufofake.HTM

:p

i still like ensign paris' crop circle and with a little work, he can photoshop a perfect fake for us all to see

[Ensign Paris]

I will get around to it when I get the time, I am a little busy at the momemt with work and posting :)

Ensign

[Mr. Anderson]

On the show there was some video of the 'pranksters' and interviewing them one guy mentioned that there was no way he did them all - and some were beyond his ability.

Also *mysterious* lights have been seen floating around the fields - small, bright and move off pretty damn fast after a while - there doesn't seem to be an explanation for these, and I certainly don't have one.

Also, biologist examining the plants in the crop circles have come up with some interesting data. Plants exhibit signs of being exposed to a microwave radiation of some type that causes minor damage to some stalks, high energy levels. This isn't something done with a 2x4 and some rope.

I don't know what it is exactly, but some of these circles were not made by people running around the field. The could be other terrestrial explanations, but I don't have them.

If you get a chance, look out for the Crop Circle show on TLC or the Discovery Channel, its very interesting. It changed my opinion of them.

D

[ejb190]

A couple of points from someone in the Agriculture Industry.

1) Anyone ever notice that most of the crop circles are in fields with irrigation tracks (Those lines that break the field into segments)? Who needs GPS when you have an evenly spaced grid already in the field? You have your X coordinate. Just base your Y off of your starting point and there you have it.

2) Before all of you get the idea to go out and make your own crop circles - This is tresspassing and destruction of property! The last thing farmers need are jokers destroying the crops. Profit margins are tight enough in farming, even with crop insurance (which many farmers do not have). Fair warning: If you get caught, you can end up in jail!

3) If you decide to visit a crop circle, get premission. I hear it is not unusual to pay an "admission fee" to land owners when you visit. A large crowd can cause as much damage to the field as the crop circle itself!

Sorry for the rant and rave, but I am one of those who class all crop circles as hoxes (if you couldn't tell!).

Eric

[mischief]

There is an obvious explaination here: The farmer was in on it and had a few friends and a transit to work with.

There are formations worldwide once assumed to have been built with "Ancient lost magic" that have recently been proven to have been made with exceptionally simple techniques. It was recently revealed that with a distance wheel and a rope the need for the Pi equation in finding the ratio of height to width of the Great pyramid is eliminated.

ANY of the crop circles on record could be made with a transit, telescope, pocket watch, compass and rope. There is a technique called "Star time" used to set watches by when using the oldest accurate mapping methods. Once you have accurate time and a good view of the sky you can find your location plus or minus a few feet anywhere on earth. Don't assume that because something is massive and intricate that 20 or 30 people couldn't do it in one night. Also: Don't assume that Farmers aren't complicit. The income from the admissions charged as above coud easily make more $$$ than the value of the ruined grain.

I will be less skeptical if anyone can find a large, intricate crop circle without the usual lines for farm equipment.

1 more thing. There is also the possabiity that somebody has made a real habit of this and may even be using a hot-air baloon to make it easier. Never underestimate the ingenuity of thespians.;)

[jefhatfield]

basic math folks...notice the circles and straight lines?...too many believers of this phenomenon (not everybody though) don't have the math skills to know the many things you can do with a straight edge, a pocket protracter, and a compass (as in string and a pole)

now make it something abstract but in large scale then you have something there...especially if done overnight

...not something which can be manipulated with straight edge (taught rope), a compass (rope on pole) and a pocket protractor using sticks to set an asimuth for bearing

you can bisect a line, put it into fourths, thirds, eighths, etc, and also make a triangle with just a stick and a piece of string

and with a protractor and two sticks for two asimuths, you can get an accurate enough angle to to find your way within one degree of accuracy

i remember being at fort hunter ligget in boy scouts in 90 degree heat trusting asimuths and it worked...otherwise we would have got lost in wild boar territory without any guns

notice that these crop circle shapes are not carved into a parking lot overnight or into a huge slab of concrete?



;)

[Mr. Anderson]

thats nice with all the straight lines and bisecting geometry - but what about the fractals? Straight lines don't help there. They are much more complex than the simple circles we're talking about.

And also in the show there is historical record of these crop circles dating back to the 1500s - its kind of hard to believe that someone has been continuing the familly traditions of messing up fields with 'art'

D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dukestreet
thats nice with all the straight lines and bisecting geometry - but what about the fractals? Straight lines don't help there. They are much more complex than the simple circles we're talking about.

And also in the show there is historical record of these crop circles dating back to the 1500s - its kind of hard to believe that someone has been continuing the familly traditions of messing up fields with 'art'

D

fractals, no problem...get one third by getting six equal segments (six being an even number) and taking two which is 33.33% percent or one over three (which is an odd number)..this takes time of course but not impossible to pull off overnight...but with this basic concept, still do-able with a string and pole, can make up for those other shapes including five sides, six sides, seven sides, etc

circles and squares are obviously done without too much effort

with trigonometry, we can get really creative and solve for angles knowing just measurements and if need be, equating those distances with a stick and the light of the moon or a stationary light source...one can solve for the mathematical unknowns

why so many more crop circles now? and why mostly in england, germany, scandinavia, and the us?

watch the movie "signs" increase the number of crop circles dramatically! does the movie start this friday?

now if the incidence of crop circles went way down or disappeared while the movie shot up the charts (signs does talk about crop circles...right?), then i will take notice

dig a crop circle 1/2 inch deep into LAX' concrete overnight five hundred feet long and then i will be a believer

[jefhatfield]

string and pole needed

1) put pole in ground and tie string to it

2) draw out a circle...mark hole with rock for reference

3) draw out another circle of exactly equal diameter with the outer limit just touching first circle...mark the hole made for the second circle

4) make third circle, again same diameter where the outer rim just touches the other two circles but does not pass inside either one...mark the hole

5) finally, join the three holes you marked and low and behold, you have a fractal...a perfect isosoles triangle with three equal angles and three equal sides

[jefhatfield]

all you need is the same string, pole, and a dollar bill or credit card

1) put pole in ground , tie the string, and draw out your circle

2) mark the hole

3) draw a line through the circle until it hits both ends of circle

4) using a 90 degree angle like the dollar bill or credit card, draw out a perpendicular line passing thru the center of the circle where the hole is extending both ends of the line until you hit the edges of the circle

5) draw a line between the four points where the lines intersect the circle and you have a square

[jefhatfield]

draw a line from corner to corner in your square and you have a non isosoles triangle with a 90 degree angle

to get other shapes, draw them out first on paper, and use your protractor to get angles (the readings/measurements) and using asimuths on large scale, you can get your five, six, seven, eight, etc... sided fractals

so with circles, triangles, straight edges, and misc. fractals, all you need it the pole, string, 90 degree angle like credit card, and protractor

and with practice, you can pull it off

but don't do it on someone else's property...that is rude and illegal

[mischief]

As long as you have a computer to do the work on paper translating it to a field just takes knowing how to scale drawings and use basic surveying techniques. You don't even need GPS if you know how to use a transit, compass and scaled drawing.;)

If given a weekend I could match any of these patterns with a few guys to help and the proper basic equipment.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mischief
As long as you have a computer to do the work on paper translating it to a field just takes knowing how to scale drawings and use basic surveying techniques. You don't even need GPS if you know how to use a transom, compass and scaled drawing.;)

If given a weekend I could match any of these patterns with a few guys to help and the proper basic equipment.

hey, i am in your neighborhood..he he

but i don't like the idea of getting arrested for trespassing and damaging property

how i wish i had my own wheat crop right now!

mischief and jefhatfield's basic math lesson on macrumors!

and golly jeez, dukestreet, you should know better than that being a man of dental science!!;) :D :p

[mischief]

We don't need a crop. We just need some street chalk and a large parking lot. All we're doing is demonstrating the point.:D

[jefhatfield]

time and place and i will be there this weekend...he he

we have to show dukestreet and others how do-able this is...circle, straight line, square, triangle, five sides, six sides, etc

and we can use rudimentary things which were available to people in ancient times if need be to prove the point...whatever:D :D :D

[Mr. Anderson]

allow me to make the design by choosing one that's already been done, fair?

If you pull it off, even in a week end, then I'll change my mind.

D

[mischief]

Even the instances where it appears that nobody went into the fields ahead of the farmer can be explained with parachuting or balooning. There are a lot of rich kids out there with time and $$ to burn.:D

It can be worth the expense for a well publicized prank.

[Mr. Anderson]

This is one I really like. The symmetry and complexity and accuracy are pretty damn amazing. If you could pull this off as a demostration using your divining rods - good luck.

D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dukestreet
allow me to make the design by choosing one that's already been done, fair?

If you pull it off, even in a week end, then I'll change my mind.

D

sounds like a good challenge, and we can do it legally with chalk like mischief mentioned and scale it out

and i wish i could:

1) deface a crop which would have to be mine or michief's legally

2) have or rent a plane and know how to parachute into a crop (which was ours)

but email us the shape you decide to choose and i will go for it and hopefully i can get mischief in on it...but we can't go out and deface a crop or damage anything in any way...there is a place in monterey, ca where the authorities let people to chalk drawings on the concrete and i will see about getting permission first for something large...if we can scale it from an email rendering drawing and scale it out ten times, or twenty times, we can certainly scale it out 100 times and do it using only ancient technology and know how...string, stick, compass, protractor

unicorn@mbay.net

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dukestreet
This is one I really like. The symmetry and complexity and accuracy are pretty damn amazing. If you could pull this off as a demostration using your divining rods - good luck.

D

basta**..he he

basic concept...a hexagon within a circle...curvature of "e" which can be scaled out with flat clear glass dish with hole in it to let water drain out to get approx curvature which ends in the six points of a hexagon

hexagon fits within circle

theory is simple...but trying to pull it off will take practice

i already have location in mind...santa cruz beach and boardwalk where it can be drawn on sand and there is a sky trail carriage which goes over length of beach and we can photograph it when done from 50 feet above

maybe some kids will wreak havoc on product but this is as good a suggestion as any

what we want to show is that any fractal can be scaled out to any size...time and money are limiting factors and i don't think making lines in the sand will break any laws or damage anything...except your ego or ours...he he

granted, i am not an artist but an engineer, or sorts (network engineer) so i have some math behind me but not a whole lot of artistic skill but i have never done this so i want to see if basic mathematical theory is applicable to the beach sand and have a direct overhead picture to show our expoits or embarassing first try

note: you picked the most complex crop circle i have seen yet and i am not an artist but i am free this weekend

[mischief]

I could get some construction professionals and locals to help very easily.

In terms of using Santa Cruz main beach call the Seaside Company's Facilities department. You may also want to try Santa Cruz City parks and Rec. and of course the vennerable SC Sentinel.:D

Looking at that image... it's all arcs and chords. No biggie, there's a minor nod to the m-set fractals in size relation of the smaller ones to the larger but that's easily dealt with by applying the "Phi" ratio.:D

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the two german pranksters on the crop circle special i saw on tv did get in trouble for their exploits

it is still destroying property and copycats who do this will also get caught

i have to admit, i thought your comment was also sarcasm...kind of like asking if bears pee in the woods;)



not quite the same. bad analogy if you ask me. its just that every time i hear people say that all crop circles are hoaxes they seem to use the well people have been video taped saying they have done it argument...as oppose to the being caught argument which seems better to me for this. although people have been caught doing it it doesnt mean that ALL are created by humans... i was just making an argumentitive point. if you take all the crop circles created as a whole only a small fraction have been one where people have been caught and i would imagine its a very very small fraction. What about the others??? If ALL crop circles are hoaxes we should have MORE people being caught then the numbers suggest thus far shouldnt we??? Again im not making a sacrastic remark or implying that they are created by little grey or green men...im just trying fight each argument with common sense and a little rationality. i havent really formed an opinion on this matter just a very thin idea or summation.....that can radically change if given the proper evidence.


WARNING: dont take my comments to mean something else...no sarcasm....no satire....no allegory....just a plain jane comment.



dig it.

[Mr. Anderson]

good luck, this aught to be fun....

i chose that one becuase even though it has an easily seen underlying structure, creation of such a thing is not simple. And if you look at the scale of it, its quite impressive to think that a group of people made it in one night - in the dark.

Look forward to the pics.

D

[jefhatfield]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by krossfyter



not quite the same. bad analogy if you ask me

[QUOTE]

how many people, percentage-wise, will get caught in rural areas at night?

using reason as my base also, i would say not too many people will get caught

mischief and i are going to do the highly publicized and legal macrumors crop circle and i can't see it being an issue since it's the beach

also, there must be, at least some, man made crop circles made by farmer's kids

i do not rule out a natural occurence, as in the formation of crystals, which is amazing in its own right, or that of snowflakes, which is also orderly and beautiful...but that is god and so may be some crop circles

at least we can agree that some crop circles, or circles in the sand ala jefhatfield and mischief, are man made...or made by mac wielding men..he he

under no circumstance do i think aliens do it...why? if they can fly light years to reach us, they can certainly have a better way to communicate with us...and with their obviously better technology, why would they be scared of us...who can't even leave our own solar system

btw...if there are aliens, they were made by same god that makes our snowflakes and would god make them smart enough to fly here and dumb enough not to know how to communicate with us?

attribute other things to aliens and that may be fine...i have no problem with that...but attribute well documented basic mathematical shapes we have known about for millenia to a higher life form, then it enters the realm of ridiculous

it would be like attributing barry bonds amazing batting to aliens...which at 599 at age 38...is a bit extra terrestrial to me

ah, another post!!!

mischief...when is a good time on the weekend?



:p

[ejb190]

People like challanges. The people who make crop circles like the challange of making a design that others think can not be made by people. (Classic one-upmanship)

Besides, we have already been shown circles are simple enough. Has anyone seen a crop square or rectangle?

[alex_ant]

There's a show on the History Channel about crop circles right now. I only saw the first 10 minutes, though. What annoys me about these shows is that it's in their best interest to make it seem as if their being created by aliens is the most plausible explanation, because if they came to the conclusion that they were all hoaxes, how exciting would that be, and how many people would remain interested enough to stick around and watch the commercials? They play spooky music in the background, and ask all sorts of "how?" questions, and then they interview people who are supposed to know what they're talking about and take their quotes out of context.

"Are these mysterious crop formations signs from alien beings??? Or are they merely elaborate and ingenious hoaxes by resourceful, talented 'crop artists?'"

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by alex_ant
There's a show on the History Channel about crop circles right now. I only saw the first 10 minutes, though. What annoys me about these shows is that it's in their best interest to make it seem as if their being created by aliens is the most plausible explanation, because if they came to the conclusion that they were all hoaxes, how exciting would that be, and how many people would remain interested enough to stick around and watch the commercials? They play spooky music in the background, and ask all sorts of "how?" questions, and then they interview people who are supposed to know what they're talking about and take their quotes out of context.

"Are these mysterious crop formations signs from alien beings??? Or are they merely elaborate and ingenious hoaxes by resourceful, talented 'crop artists?'"

jefhatfield: pc techie, landscaper, crop circle artist:p ;) :)

[chmorley]

What we know: Some are man made.

That's it. That's all we know. The rest is all guessing.

What floors me is how anxious and uncomfortable people are with simply saying, "That's strange. I don't know about that." This, by the way, is the heart of the scientific method.

No one here knows if all crop circles are made by people. Some assume that they mustn't be, since the only alternative (again, an assumption) is that aliens created them. What ridiculously terrible logic.

Simply because they can be faked doesn't mean they all are. Do we assume all flowers are put there by people? Do we assume all deaths are murders? Sometimes things happen, and we are simply left to wonder how and why.

And maybe sometimes the best answer is, "Who the hell knows?"

How about this for another true statement: We don't know how many of them are made.

Chris

[jefhatfield]

good points

i certainly think all crop circles i have seen in photos look do-able

but give me an overnight crop circle ten miles long or one etched into a large setion of concrete overnight and then i can believe it is more than the work of pranksters

[Gus]

I know this isn't really part of the discussion, but the pictures in the article from MSNBC linked at the beginning of this thread show the guys in the field studying these circles at Stonehenge, and they are using a TiBook in the field. Just thought was particularly funny.



Gus

[krossfyter]

...

[Mr. Anderson]

Ha, bit map graphics in a crop circle - seems some ones getting a little more creative on their computer.

D

[krossfyter]

thats real dude!:D

[chmorley]

Just my opinion, but if that's real (not digitally-enhanced), it's a fake (man-made).

Chris