Convince me to get a PowerBook

[gingi0]

Hi.

I'm trying to find a good notebook to replace my old Dell Inspiron (that's falling apart) as my primary computer. Being a software engineer, I'm what you'd call a power-user, and I need a pretty hefty machine (at least 1G of RAM). I mostly develop Java applications. My wife, however, cares that the machine is user-friendly and easy to work with. Coming from a UNIX background, the PowerBook, with OS X, seems the perfect fit.

But I can't seem to convince the Mrs that these features are worth the extra 1000 greenbacks over a PC-based machine with similar specs. I tried telling her that it would increase productivity (she's a scientist, she wants proof). I even had to resort to statements like "It's really cool" and "everybody's got a PowerBook." But she just accuses me of being a big spender, and that I can achieve the same type of work with a PC.

Any advice on how I can sell the PowerBook idea to her?
Thanks.

[makisushi]

Hi.

I'm trying to find a good notebook to replace my old Dell Inspiron (that's falling apart) as my primary computer. Being a software engineer, I'm what you'd call a power-user, and I need a pretty hefty machine (at least 1G of RAM). I mostly develop Java applications. My wife, however, cares that the machine is user-friendly and easy to work with. Coming from a UNIX background, the PowerBook, with OS X, seems the perfect fit.

But I can't seem to convince the Mrs that these features are worth the extra 1000 greenbacks over a PC-based machine with similar specs. I tried telling her that it would increase productivity (she's a scientist, she wants proof). I even had to resort to statements like "It's really cool" and "everybody's got a PowerBook." But she just accuses me of being a big spender, and that I can achieve the same type of work with a PC.

Any advice on how I can sell the PowerBook idea to her?
Thanks.
Stop your whining, and just go buy it.
If it is for work, why isn't your company buying it?

[edesignuk]

It's time for someone to show someone who wears the trousers in your household ;) :p

PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN MAN! :D

Could you tell us the PB you are looking at, and the wintel laptop that is $1000 cheaper that apparently is about the same spec (can't imagine it is though)?

[AoWolf]

Well OS x is unix based we but we know that. There was a macbytes story yesterday comparing macs and Pc that might be useful too. Tell her that there will be no viruses and you will get a better shelf life off the mac.

[jeremy.king]

With exception on what software you are using (WSAD, Eclipse, JBuilder, NetBeans) , it really shoudn't matter what platform you develop your software on.

Heres a good read of another Java developers experience. Not to mention if you have attended any of the NFJS symposiums, you will see that macs are prevelant amongst some of the most respected people in the java realm.

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/scottellsworth/archive/2003/10/macos_x_is_my_j.html

[cluthz]

When I bought a 12-inch Powerbook I compared the prices to several high end pc notebooks, like the dell latitude series or Asus.
My conclusion was that the apples didn't cost that much more than the PC notebooks.
Lowerend pc notebooks are cheap, but you get celeron cpus, and you get flimsy plastic enclosures.
If you looks at centrinos you will get a faster machine for the same price, but you cant use macosx on them.

If you are specing a Dell Latitude D800, similar to a Powerbook 15" combodrive:
combodrive, 15"inch screen, 60GB4200rpm hd, 256mb ram, 802.11g network, Geforece 5650 M (which is slower than the pbs radeon 9700m) no extra warranty or service. (the dell would be 1.5 Pentium M vs 1.33 G4, so the dell would be a little faster.) bot machines would cost the almost same $1999 for the pb and $1954 for the dell.
The dell would also weigth 7.1 pounds compared to the powerbooks 5.7.

And if you look at Asus W1N for ex, it would cost more (atleast here i live).

[fistful]

just tell her for every powerbook someone doesn't buy a kitten dies. :(

I guess you could always compromise and get an ibook, they don't seem too far behind the pb's on specs. :\

[gingi0]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Just to be clear, the PowerBook I'm salivating over is:


PowerBook 1.5GHz (15.2" TFT)
1.5GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 4200 rpm
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
1GB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x512 SO-DIMMs
AirPort Extreme Card

Retail: $2899

For comparison, we found an "acceptable" Dell with similar specs:


Mobile Pentium® 4 Processor 518 w/HT Technology (2.80GHz, 533MHz FSB)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
15 inch XGA LCD Panel
1GB RAM,333MHz,2 DIMMs
64MB DDR NVIDIA® GeForce™ FX Go5200 AGP 4x Graphics
80GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive
Integrated Network Card
Internal 56k Modem for Inspiron
8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+RW/+R)

Retail: $1946
Sale: $1751

The Dell is not Pentium M or Centrino, but you get the idea.

Thanks.

[edesignuk]

The dell is cheap because it's a desktop P4 processor in there, and not even a new one (533MHz BUS was a long time ago). With it being a desktop P4 in there it will get a ***** battery life because the chips were never designed to save power.

The powerbook has a 9700 video card, which is piles better than the 5200 in the dell.

Also, don't buy your RAM from Apple, buy it from newegg or crucial and the price will drop.

[superfunkomatic]

here are some measurable pluses -


doesn't have security issues like another operating system (IE adware, buffer over-run problems
uses MS compatible software like Office, which in my opinion runs better and is more intuitive on Macs
dead easy to configure - moving network connections from wireless to wired and from home to work - seamlessly
built in dual monitor support and configuration
SSH/web tools support and development native - includes PHP, MySQL and dev tools out of the box - your own portable development and testing server
Incorporation of photo, audio and video software that is easy to use and create/share with
more, need more?

I think these alone are good reasons for the mac over pc, your time and your significant other's is worth something - likely more than mucking about removing outlook viruses, adware, driver issues and the like.

[Anticipat3]

Also, you could consider the 1.33 ghz model -- it's not siginificantly slower, but it is significantly cheaper!

I'm also a Java developer and UNIX head, and let me tell you -- for a portable UNIX machine, there is no equal. Unless you manage to get a PC laptop that runs Linux well (in that it has drivers to support all of the devices, wireless cards and widescreen displays are troublesome) AND you happen to get hardware that all supports Suspend To RAM (Sleepp), you aren't going to get a machine that matches it. To boot, it's going to be a much greater hassle to get it working, even if your hardware is adequate. To my knowledge, there are only about 2 or 3 laptops currently being sold that would qualify for all those categories... so your choices are limited.

Here are some other selling points for the machine:
1. Portability. Won't find a PC laptop that's as powerful that's also as small and has as much battery life.
2. Unix + Usability. You get the Terminal, the Java tools, but you also get Microsoft Office and Multimedia capabilities.
3. Durability. AlBooks can take a LOT of abuse. Before my powerbook I had a Dell laptop, and sent it in for repairs no less than 3 times. I even carried it in a sleeve, etc, but the thing just cannot take being hauled around daily. Chintsy plastic just didn't cut it.

[daboo2]

In this day and age, computers are like beds -- you spend enough time on them to elect spending more money to be comfortable.

Just as I will wake up satisfied and happy on my Tempur-Pedic bed, so, too, am I that I own a Mac, especially a Powerbook. If you do your work on a computer, you should buy the one that will make you comfortable day in and day out. There is not that much separation in comparitive cost (especially spread out over a five year period), but the quality and experience are vastly diffferent. And it seems you already know this.

Life is too short to spend it on a PC.

[earthtoandy]

i must confess when considering a laptop i looked at some windows machines and i must say when it came down to it the mac was more bang for the buck... i was getting outrageous prices over 2000 just after configuration for something somewhat comparable to the 12' pb that will cost me 1400. so i really dont think the price difference is that real in this situation. it depends. but if you are getting a respectable pc laptop it will be way up there in price and certain things like a worthwhile harddrive that comes standard on a pb is an add on option

[Eevee]

I was also considering a PC laptop before I bought my PB. The problem was that almost all of my colleagues who have Dell or Sony laptops have MAJOR problems (i.e. memory crashes, HD died out, and just won't start). And the ones with Apple PBs do not have any problems at all. Thus, PBs are reliable machines!

Wait till the end of this month as rumored updated PBs are coming and are $100 cheaper than the current. Maybe that'll help convince your wife?

Good luck...

[zelmo]

There are tons of good reasons listed above, but you won't convince her if she doesn't want to be convinced. Do you have an Apple Store close to home? Let her play around with one for a half hour...it's all the selling you'll need to do.

[Scottyk9]

These articles were reported in MacDailyNews, and may offer an objective piece of evidence...

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/But-Macs-Are-Slower-Right-36964.html

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/36120.html

[coconn06]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Just to be clear, the PowerBook I'm salivating over is:


PowerBook 1.5GHz (15.2" TFT)
1.5GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 4200 rpm
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
1GB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x512 SO-DIMMs
AirPort Extreme Card

Retail: $2899

For comparison, we found an "acceptable" Dell with similar specs:


Mobile Pentium® 4 Processor 518 w/HT Technology (2.80GHz, 533MHz FSB)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
15 inch XGA LCD Panel
1GB RAM,333MHz,2 DIMMs
64MB DDR NVIDIA® GeForce™ FX Go5200 AGP 4x Graphics
80GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive
Integrated Network Card
Internal 56k Modem for Inspiron
8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+RW/+R)

Retail: $1946
Sale: $1751

The Dell is not Pentium M or Centrino, but you get the idea.

Thanks.

The 1.33 GHz 15" PowerBook with 1 GB of RAM from Boundless Technologies ($170 for 2x512 MB - see www.ramseeker.com for good RAM prices) will cost you $2500.

[zelmo]

After my wife finally agreed that we ought to get a laptop, she wanted to go get a cheap ol' PC. After a few days of "discussion," I took her to our local Apple Store, told her to try out a few models, and I started browsing (always a dangerous thing for me to do!).
After about 20 minutes, she found me and told me to go ahead and order the Apple.

EDIT - When she found me, I had $330 worth of stuff in my arms to go along with the laptop I knew she was going to let me buy.

[earthtoandy]

HA! congrats!! it doesnt take much more than touching em!

[bdomz]

you should also consider the fact that a powerbook will retain its value very well, so in a few years when it's time to upgrade you could get back a decent chunk of change if you sell on ebay. Apple laptops have the best resale value of any manufacture, they even do better than IBM thinkpads.

[gingi0]

Thanks so much for all the excellent points and pointers. I feel like compiling them all into a formalized purchase request and just handing it over to my wife. Meanwhile, I'll drag her to the local Apple Store and have her doodle with all the nifty features. If anything, all the responses have really solidified my own determination to get the PowerBook.

[Brother Michael]

Congrats on the Mac!

Mike

[makisushi]

If anything, all the responses have really solidified my own determination to get the PowerBook.


That is right attitude! Eye on the prize, baby!

[James Craner]

Thanks so much for all the excellent points and pointers. I feel like compiling them all into a formalized purchase request and just handing it over to my wife. Meanwhile, I'll drag her to the local Apple Store and have her doodle with all the nifty features. If anything, all the responses have really solidified my own determination to get the PowerBook.

The best way to convince someone to get a Mac is to demo the computer face to face ( or take them to an Apple store as you suggest), they will then realise that it is not just the physical hardware that is attractive, but also the OS is just so user friendly. When I demo the Mac to friends and colleagues, they are impressed with how iLife all works together. Show them iPhoto and say if I drag this picture and that picture to create a new album then press this button to automatically upload them to my web site, that always impresses them.

[tristan]

Oh yeah, the wife. How'd I get a Powerbook past my wife? Let's see...

1. "since I'm going to use this thing 24/7 all the time I better buy quality"
2. generally announce major purchases in advance so they're not a surprise
3. Be frugal in other areas and point to all the stuff I *haven't* bought. A luxury car, PS2/XBOX/lots of DVDs, a PC for games, digital camera, etc. My gadget:income ratio is much lower than most guys in IT.
4. Make the "hey, I'm in the computer industry - my skills pay the bills" argument
5. Make it last - keep it for about 2.5 to 3 yrs (easy for a Mac with RAM and OS upgrades)

And finally...
6. "You can use it too - actually it'll be all yours when i upgrade". :-)

[wide]

here are some measurable pluses -

[list=1]
built in dual monitor support and configuration

all notebooks made my by a major manufacturer have this feature

[djbahdow01]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Just to be clear, the PowerBook I'm salivating over is:


PowerBook 1.5GHz (15.2" TFT)
1.5GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 4200 rpm
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
1GB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x512 SO-DIMMs
AirPort Extreme Card

Retail: $2899

For comparison, we found an "acceptable" Dell with similar specs:


Mobile Pentium® 4 Processor 518 w/HT Technology (2.80GHz, 533MHz FSB)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
15 inch XGA LCD Panel
1GB RAM,333MHz,2 DIMMs
64MB DDR NVIDIA® GeForce™ FX Go5200 AGP 4x Graphics
80GB Ultra ATA Hard Drive
Integrated Network Card
Internal 56k Modem for Inspiron
8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+RW/+R)

Retail: $1946
Sale: $1751

The Dell is not Pentium M or Centrino, but you get the idea.

Thanks.

You forgot A few minor things on the Dell, its not too important but PB's come with bluetooth built in, and on the Dell there was no wireless card. Only integrated 10/100 ethernet. Also with the P4 it will suck the battery life up quick. One thing Intel did well was the Pentium M chips, but even then it still runs WinXP. I am so glad i moved over to the Mac, I hardly use my Dell Inspiron 8000 any more.

Also just did a price comparison of the Apple 15in with 1.5GHz and 1GB Ram vs the Dell 600m 14.1in with 2.0 M and 1 GB, Apple $2899 vs Dell $3094, on sale for $2630. That would probably be the best comparison for the Apple and Dell.

[mim]

You seem to need no convincing! I hope everything goes down well with the wife :)

I thought you might like some insights from someone else who has owned a Dell Inspiron and also moved to a 15"PB:

My Inspiron started to 'fall to bits' too. Really. The build quality on those things is pretty poor. It hasn't improved with the newer ones (2 people at work have similar ones to the Dell you're comparing with - they lust after my PB).

The Inspiron (8000 series) I had was loud. The new ones are worse. The one you're looking at, with the desktop processor in it, will be as bad as a desktop (possibly worse as the fan is smaller and running faster!). The PB fan rarely turns on. Even then it's pretty quiet. No big deal you might say, but if you're like me and use your laptop in bed your wife will certainly notice the difference. Also something that's making a huge difference in my life is the PB's backlit keyboard. I really thought it was a gimmick, but it is really great to work while sitting in bed and my girlfriend is watching TV.

The PB is pretty damn tough. I have stood on mine (accidentally - it was open on the floor, I put my heel down over the DVD drive). Gave me the shock of my life, but it has no damage what-so-ever.

Sleep mode on Mac's works like a dream. I use photoshop/etc all the time. I can just close the PB's lid when I want and then open it back up the next day - everything is there ready to go again immediately.

I'm not much of a Linux/Unix geek, but I've been getting into it. The best thing about OSX in this regard is that you've got a full shell integrated with a GUI. You can copy and paste to and from the shell to the GUI. Postfix/Apache/vim/emacs/etc all come with the system. Fink allows you to grab any other package you might want. A great thing about the BSD base is also the amount of scientific software available - you don't say what kind of scientist your wife is, but maybe she should have a browse on Apple's web-site under the software section. And if you do any kind of coding then the killer Mac app is BBEdit - it just can't be beat.

Also - part of that extra expense for the Mac is for the iLife programs that come with it - and they are actually pretty good. Also the PowerBooks come with quite a bit of other software aimed at 'artists' but can be quite useful if you're making GUI's for your Java stuff. Hmm, I also forgot about XCode and the other developer kit - which might interest you.

When you see a Powerbook, it's pretty obvious that some of the extra expense is due to much better engineering/design. So in a lot of ways it is quite difficult to compare an Apple to a Dell. Things like the case - full anodised aluminium. Like the bezel (tiny! - the one around the new Inspiron's is huge). The size (the PB is 1" thick - the Inspiron feels like a brick in comparison). The slot loading DVD drive. The *really* bright screen. The beautiful feeling and well laid out keyboard. DVI and FW800, and proper powered FW400 ports. The really small powerbrick with built-in cable arms, and both a wall socket and a cord! If you compare a Powerbook to an IBM Thinkpad - which is much higher quality than the Dell Inspiron - the Apple prices don't look so bad after all.

I haven't even begun to mention the benefits of OSX - but really, like others here have said, the best thing to do is just go down to an Apple store and touch one. I swear they lace the keyboards with coke or something ;)

[mim]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I had another idea too. You *could* get a new iMac *and* an iBook for close to the the price of a powerbook. With airport you could use the iBook to ssh into the iMac and offload processor heavy work for compilation etc. Some things could even be automated with a bit of Apple Script magic (kind of like REXX, but much cooler).

Errr - just thought though...Java no need compiling. Whoops. Oh well. Anyway, does anybody out there do anything like this?

[zachj]

Keep in mind that it's not just the battery life that's the problem with desktop processors in laptops . . . it's the HEAT. Putting a desktop processor in a laptop effectively makes it a desktop, since it'll burn you if you put it on your lap. I'm surprised Dell hasn't had any of MacDonalds' troubles in that regard ;) Also, if you really get down to it, it's not even so much the discomfort as the longevity and dependability. I've had almost every single Dell with a desktop processor I've ever seen down at ResNet go back to Dell because it was overheating and shutting off. Celeron, Pentium . . . doesn't matter. Desktop chips are called that for a reason.

Note that this is not just with Dells . . . Compaq, HP, Toshiba, Sony. They all do it, and they're all just as bad. If you HAVE to get a PC laptop, get a mobile processor or a Pentium M. The Mobile Athlons (not the 64) have a TDP of 35W, which is a lot more than the Pentium M and G4, but I think it's less than a mobile P4 . . . I could be wrong, though . . . The overclock like stink, though :D (see sig and add 300MHz for the top end . . .)

The only thing I can say about buying a laptop at the end of the day, though, is just to make sure you need what you're buying. I regret the amount I paid for my PowerBook. I love it, but I want the money back. Had they been making the G4 iBook at the time, I'd have gotten that. But if you're looking at similarly priced PC laptops, there's not much of an issue . . . But for me, as a college student, I figured I needed a laptop. I think I'd have been much better served with a good desktop and a cheap Pismo or something.

Z

[512ke]

These are all great arguments in favor of the PB. However, if I were you, I would throw logic to the wind here. A direct emotional appeal is best. It might be something like... honey, I know it costs $1000 more, and even if it doesn't make sense (which it does) it's just something I really badly want. It may be irrational but it's going to make me very happy. That direct/honest approach has worked for me. And I take the same approach when my wife really wants something that costs a lot more than the "value" version. Of course, then you guys have to pay for it... BUT in my experience it hurts less to pay for a PB you really wanted than a less-expensive-but-still-expensive item that you did not totally want. :)

[gingi0]

Like I said earlier, the more responses I'm getting in this forum, the more I'm determined to get the PowerBook.

Many of the multimedia and software features for the PowerBook are essentially an afterthought. Computer buyers tend to think, "By spending more money to get this nifty feature (e.g. a SuperDrive with the Final Cut software) which I really don't need right now, I force myself to learn it and make it useful." I don't know how many of the features that come with the PowerBook I'll actually use (I might use BlueTooth if I were stranded in the desert with my PowerBook and a cell phone). However, that is not really up for discussion. You can't get a barebones PowerBook.

What is convincing me to go with the PowerBook is the fundamental difference that I'm observing between the philosophy of Apple, Inc. and that of other PC manufacturers toward building a solid, quality laptop. After all, by purchasing from a manufacturer, you're essentially entering a long-term relationship with that company, and you want to know that they value customer satisfaction.

For example, I haven't really considered the notion of resell value until someone mentioned it in this forum. I can't imagine that I'd be able to sell my dilapidated Dell laptop. With all the breaking plastic, it's less mobile than a desktop. If anything, I might just have to pay someone to get it off my hands. Interestingly, a Dell store rep told me recently that Dell continues to use cheap plastic with the new Inspirons, and I can expect to need a new one in three years. But if I would be able to sell my PowerBook down the road for, say, $500, then I can discount that amount during the purchase (I guess I have to take inflation into account too).

[hcuar]

And finally...
6. "You can use it too - actually it'll be all yours when i upgrade". :-)

My wife is yet to touch my month old Powerbook. Probably never will. I think she is scared of breaking it. ;)

[Manzana]

Computer buyers tend to think, "By spending more money to get this nifty feature (e.g. a SuperDrive with the Final Cut software) which I really don't need right now, I force myself to learn it and make it useful." I don't know how many of the features that come with the PowerBook I'll actually use (I might use BlueTooth if I were stranded in the desert with my PowerBook and a cell phone).

Yeah, this is what I used to think, and I "settled for the 1.33 15" PB, adn I found out that I didn't miss the Superdrive, backlit kb, larger hd, etc. This was 2000 retail and later I added cheap ram and external hd.

The way you did your comparison to the *ell, you're talking 'bout a loaded 15"

* PowerBook 1.5GHz (15.2" TFT)
* 1.5GHz PowerPC G4 with 64MB Graphics Memory
* 80GB Ultra ATA drive @ 4200 rpm
* SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
* Backlit Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* 1GB DDR333 SDRAM - 2x512 SO-DIMMs
* AirPort Extreme Card

I think the "low" end PB kicks that *ell in the pants!

[Manzana]

My wife now wishes we had bought the "loaded" PB, she really loves our PB...and now wants her own iMac after playing with it at the store!!! I now know for sure, women love the apple, but you have to get them to use it!