PowerMac Specs...

[arn]

MacMinute (http://www.macminute.com) reports on upcoming PowerMac specs:

Sources inform us that three configurations will be offered: dual-867MHz (US$1,699), dual-1GHz ($2,499), and dual-1.25GHz ($3,299).

Current PowerMacs prices will be reduced and a Superdrive eMac will be introduced.

[iMatt]

Am I the first to post?

[djniche]

all duals!! excellent!
I see a 1ghz or 933 mhz in my future!

does this include DDR ram?

[chuckzee]

Clear out the G4 inventory, here come the g5's! :D

[Sayer]

Some people are gonna go to Wintel after threatening to do so if Apple doesn't come up with near 2 GHz CPUs across the board.

Dual 867 MHz? Why not 933? Is there some quirk with 933 in duals or something?

That makes the whole thing fishy IMHO.

[ImAlwaysRight]

Less than 24 hours to go and we can't get solid reports on what is going to be offered. Pete's sake! Steve runs a tight ship...

[Horne]

All dual?

Basically no-one has a clue, SJ has done an amazing job in this day and age at concealing what's coming out.
God, our politicians can't keep sleaze from getting out, and nobody even cares about that.
I think somewhere in the middle of the 2 stories tonight, maybe 1.4 dual for top end.
I really want ddr though.....

[mr evil brkfast]

I think that if these specs are true, there will be a lot of unhappy people out there!

I guess, to look on the bright side, they are all dual machines.

[ImAlwaysRight]

Thinksecret.com is reporting the same story...

[Tue12]

1.25Ghz?

What's that: 166Mhz x 7.5 bus? Or am I missing something.

BTW, 1.25Ghz tops? Very disappointing. A killer mobo architecture is the only possibility for any sort of 'saving grace' at this point in time.

I'm not impressed with these new 'aggressive' pricing either - as promised during the financial stream. Way over-priced as usual.

[greenplasticcup]

sounds great! i wish I had the cash/need ratio a bit higher!

[macsurfer]

Maybe Apple is purposely seeding false rumors so that they can unleash a really big surprise tomorrow?

[jesyjames]

My guess for the 867 vs 933 is because who is going to pay the extra cash for the duel gig when the speed difference is roughly 60 mhz? Do the math and 120 mhz isn't that much of a difference either, though. There maybe other things to entice you to it in the configuration..

This is kind of disappointing, but seems firmly grounded in reality. I just can't justify spending upwards of two grand on a 1.2 ghz mac when the windows world has intel set to release their 3.0 ghz p4 and athlon has the clawhammer coming.

I currently own both a mac(g4/466) and pc (amd xp1600+). I've been waiting forever to upgrade the mac but at this nominal mhz bump it seems kind of silly. Guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow for the real story on Apple's website.

[Titian]

Poor Apple...
For the next 6 months they might as well close down the sales department.

Oh, maybe not:
in the last years they have so well trained (or brain washed) the mac customers that these all will think they have the best of the best and would go lining up the next morning in front of the mac stores waiting to buy one of these "boxes".
Well done Apple, maybe your customers don't deserve anything better...
:D

[ddtlm]

At least the rumored specs aren't la-la-land rosy. 1.25ghz implies a 166mhz FSB (166.67 x 7.5) because it cannot be achieved on a 133mhz FSB.

[etoiles]

it might not sound very impressive, but hey, they are cheaper and for most of my cpu intesive tasks (rendering graphics), multithreading works quite nicely...the high end model would be close to a 2.5ghz G4...;)

[sparkleytone]

dualies for 1699 dont sound too bad to me :)

[ImAlwaysRight]

from the article at MacMinute:
The dual-867MHz configuration is slated to ship by the end of the week, while the new dual-1GHz model will ship towards the end of the month. Availability of the high-end dual-1.25GHz model is being pegged at sometime in September.

Why does it take so long to ship a stinking dual 1GHz? We've had these since January. Pete's sake. Get the high end out first (like Apple did with the iMac G4 in January). Why peddle the low-end first?

[Rower_CPU]

No mention of DDR...interesting...

Hope that's just an oversight, or they weren't provided all the info.

[bignumbers]

Looks like Apple is back (roughly) to their standard price spread ($1700/2500/3300). As much as I wish the top-end was staying at $3K, it makes sense. I wonder what extras the top-end Mac will have over the midrange. It would be hard to justify $800 just for 2x250MHz. Might be a better video card. (RAM and HD are nearly free.) Or who knows, maybe some surprises.

I hope this time Apple goes to, and stays with, dual processors on Pro Macs. The last time they did nearly this it was because they couldn't come up with faster processors. Don't know if this is the case here.

With OS X, they could almost advertise these at their doubled speed up to 2.5GHz PowerMacs).

We shall see.

[ultranoia]

Well, if these are the actual specs, Apple has definitely stumbled. And they couldn't have this unimpressively incremental PowerMac refresh ready a month ago at MWNY? Ouch.

If this new lineup features that lame enclosure that's been making the rumor rounds, I'll be even more disappointed. Not only are the guts disappointing, it seems as if the Apple design department has been taken over by hack photoshop rasterbators -- because that new enclosure pic sure looked amateurish.

[nuckinfutz]

If you're doing heavy graphics having even the entry level machine a dually is a great thing. I agree the hi end box doesn't sound impressive for $3300 clams but I can't argue too much about the entry level and midrange.

I personally don't give a shiza what Intel is at and personally i'm tired of hearing about them. Intel based machines don't run OS X or Final Cut Pro. End of story.

[G4scott]

Originally posted by digitalvideo
Maybe Apple is purposely seeding false rumors so that they can unleash a really big surprise tomorrow?

Hey, that's my line :p With Apple, it's always some sort of conspiracy :cool:

You should see my theory on how Jobs pronounces "Jaguar" as "Jag-wire"

[jadam]

DUDE these are the old moto processors also with the 7 stage pipeline anD!!!! OMFG DUALS FOR $1,699!!! OMFG!!!! WITH DDR!!!!!!!!! OMFG!!!!!!! THATS 1337, dude those systems would wip 2ghzPIVs, a dual 1.25 woudl WIP a 3ghz especially if it had 333mhz memory!!!!!!! w00t for apple!!!

[kishba]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
I personally don't give a shiza what Intel is at and personally i'm tired of hearing about them. Intel based machines don't run OS X or Final Cut Pro. End of story.

you're my new hero.

amen to that.

you're going in my sig for that quote.. that's the best reason for whiners to shut up EVER

[jesyjames]

<<DUDE these are the old moto processors also with the 7 stage pipeline anD!!!! OMFG DUALS FOR $1,699!!! OMFG!!!! WITH DDR!!!!!!!!! OMFG!!!!!!! THATS 1337, dude those systems would wip 2ghzPIVs, a dual 1.25 woudl WIP a 3ghz especially if it had 333mhz memory!!!!!!! w00t for apple!!!>>


Let's hope enthusiasm is contagious..

[ddtlm]

Clock: People who expect new G4 cores and clockspeeds much above this 1.25 rumor are in my opinion blindly opimistic. Just because Apple is behind in overall performance does not mean they can pull a rabit out of their hat.

DDR: Of course we are getting DDR, like the Xserve if nothing else. Yes, that is better than PC133.

Myself, I'd have to debate getting a dual 1.25 for a long time... it would be a good deal faster than my dual 800 but the price is steep.

[Megaquad]

nahh..these specs sound good
166 MHz bus is very acceptable..
look at the 800 mhz imacs..they cant do any better

[rasha]

I hope there is more to the PowerMacintosh update than a small increase. Small increases are good but not when the line is so far behind already. I guess i will continue to wait for my wallet to open but I am not giving up yet. OS X is too much to give up for some XP and cool hardware.

[nero007]

All I have to say is any dual machine in X.2 is going to FLY.

[Cappy]

Lets be realistic people and not get everyone's hopes up(yeah, I know too late). The industry has not moved to 166Mhz bus speeds yet "officially" so I seriously doubt we're going to see Macs with that. The odds are in favor of a ddr hack like the xserve for the lowend and higher end might have something a little more catered to ddr through and through due to new G4 cpu's.

[noverflow]

Go to
www.barefeats.com
They race the xserve (dual) vs the dual 1ghz PM and the xserve is NEVER faster.

Unless they go to atleast 166... ddr will do nothing for normal people. DDR needs a ddr buss

[suzerain]

OK, so MacMinute and Think Secret have the numbers right. But where are all the people who were posting here last week?

Let's have some fun with this.

Obviously, these speeds are right, BUT...they won't be 7450s or 7470s.

They'll be new IBM PowerX processors!!! (remember the giant heat sink?).

A 1.3 Ghz Power4 does a pretty nice number on all the CPUs out there.

Because the G4 stumbled with lower speeds, this is Apple's opportunity to switch to a new architecture.

:cool:

[dongmin]

I'm not gonna make some dumb comment about switching to Intel or whatever, but it's still disappointing. It's been about 7 months, and all we get is a 25% increase in mhz??? That's weak, no matter how you spin it. Granted, there might be other improvements under the hood to push the improvement in performance, but still...

[cyberfunk]

DDR hacks blow, if steve gives us a DDR hack, HES the HACK/Quack.

[slaboda]

A lousy 200MHz increase? If it's true, this is almost as bad as the infamous 500MHz debacle. Motorolla should DIE! Apple needs to ditch them for the Power4. Who's gonna buy a system with a crippled DDR implementation and a processor that essentially hasn't evolved for 2 years? Not me.

[daveg5]

At least is not the general 20% every 6 months. I guess we have to wait till IBM comes thru to make it to 1.5-2GHZ. Everything is now depended on memory type and bus speed and memory controller. I hope its not limited to 1GB thru-put like the Xserve. But I goto say duals for $1699 cdrw is a major bargain!!
Dual 1ghz radeon 9000 superdrive for under $2500 is cool too!. The large rumored heatsink makes no sense if these are the same macbidule rumored macs cuz they use current g4 chips.
I wonder if the 1699 model uses the current motherboard or if they all share the same. I hope Apple dosnt repeat the price increase mistake they made with the IMAC.
Lowerprices mean more hardware sales and more software sales.
Higher prices mean short turn profits only and the new sheen will wear off quickly.
I cant wait till Jan 03, if the new model $2399 can hang with a dual 1.6 AMD and a 2.6 pentium unlike the current dual 1GHz and is at least 50% faster than the current dual . I will buy now after I see the benchmarks at barefeats and macspeedzone and those PC test sites.

[ImAlwaysRight]

I don't know what you folks were expecting... the 1.2/1.4/1.6 GHz rumors on yourdailymac.com? What a joke. Those who were hoping for this must not be long time Apple users. You were probably also disappointed in Jan '01 when the 1.2/1.4/1.6 G5 predictions didn't come true.

The 867/1.0/1.25 speeds are very consistent with what Apple has been able to produce. To make the low end a dual processor WITH L3 cache (assuming) is phenomenal. Granted, the mid- and high end at their price points are nothing spectacular, but if we have DDR 333 and FSB at 166MHz, and hopefully larger than 2MB L3 cache, I think we'll see a good speed improvement.

This is what I was expecting -- and to make the entry-level a dual is a nice touch.

[seven5]

i paid 1599 for an 800mhz in feb.... now for 100 more i could have had a DUALLLL!?? wtf this is rediculous... i'm ****** pissed.....

[Postal]

ImAlwaysRight:

There's one very important reason why Apple wants the dual-867s out first (assuming the news is legitimate): education. The low-end PowerMac is commonly marketed as a solution for faculty and students in post-secondary schools... and you don't want to have the students showing up at the campus computer store, only to find that they can't get the Mac they can afford until they're already partway through the term!

That also applies to the education models - the old single 800 is a lot more viable, especially when you apply the education discount.

Let's just hope they do something with the displays too!

[daveg5]

I pray these are IBM's 64bit chips inside, that would be so awsome!!!

[arn]

Originally posted by seven5
i paid 1599 for an 800mhz in feb.... now for 100 more i could have had a DUALLLL!?? wtf this is rediculous... i'm ****** pissed.....

Are you joking? You've had your computer for 6-7 months. If you didn't need it then, you should have waited.

A hint though - if you buy a computer now... in 6-7 months, you'll be able to get a much better computer for the same price.

It's not rocket science...

arn

[MacSlut]

Well, on the bright side...

We all knew it was impossible for a Power4, new case, USB2, FireWire 2, etc... to be announced tomorrow. Too many things didn't seem ready.

This minor upgrade is in a way a good sign that the next generation Mac is coming soon.

They aren't having any special events or making a big deal out of this, it's just a minor speed bump.

Bummer that it isn't a major speed bump, but I'm glad to see that Apple isn't hyping this.

[seven5]

months have nothing to do with it, this is just ONE update to the product line, when i bought my machine a dual cpu computer was 3000+, not 100 bucks more...a dual 867 is EXTREMELY better than my 800, were not talking aobut just the extra 67 mhz.... don't give me that, "thats the computer industry" bulls*t, i've been in it long enough to accept that, but when running an operating system that cna be SOOO much better with duals, it makes me sick to my stomach....i would never had expected this kind of deal so fast....

[MacSlut]

Originally posted by seven5
i paid 1599 for an 800mhz in feb.... now for 100 more i could have had a DUALLLL!?? wtf this is rediculous... i'm ****** pissed.....

My advice to you is to never buy another computer again.

[ImAlwaysRight]

Originally posted by arn


Are you joking? You've had your computer for 6-7 months. If you didn't need it then, you should have waited.

A hint though - if you buy a computer now... in 6-7 months, you'll be able to get a much better computer for the same price.

It's not rocket science...

arn

Good point, arn. I was just going to say the same thing.

Here's a buyer's tip: Go to www.apple.com as fast as your mouse and internet connection will take you and order an dual 1GHz now. You'll get bumped up to the dual 1.25GHz tomorrow, but will be locked in at the $2999 price.

I'm an edu customer, so I was able to order a dual 1GHz w/17-inch LCD for $3218 after taking off for the current promotion ($2699 + $919 w/$400 off). So I'll get a 17-inch LCD and new dual 1.25 for $3218. Pretty sweet. Of course, this is for institutional use ;-)

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by seven5
i paid 1599 for an 800mhz in feb.... now for 100 more i could have had a DUALLLL!?? wtf this is rediculous... i'm ****** pissed.....

That's the nature of the beast, buddy. :p

Oh, and you're getting all worked up on rumors... wait until they actually release the new PMs before you seek vengeance...

[awrc]

Originally posted by Cappy
Lets be realistic people and not get everyone's hopes up(yeah, I know too late). The industry has not moved to 166Mhz bus speeds yet "officially" so I seriously doubt we're going to see Macs with that.

Uh, 333 DDR is pretty much the standard on the current generation of Athlon boards, so how is a 166MHz bus so strange?

[ibookin']

This is what will get Windows idiots to shut up:

-Dual 2.7GHz G4 or G5 CPU (faster than the fastest P4)
-333MHz DDR expandable to at least 2GB (most good PC mobos support this)
-An amazing mobo architecture incorporating an NForce2 and HyperTransport

Probably not going to happen tommorow...
:( :(
I would buy one, though:D

[Horne]

'I'malwaysright'

Do you really think that will work?

I highly doubt it......Some guys on a share website saw a dell 22" flat screen (something like that anyway) monitor mistakingly priced on their website. Some ordered 10x. Needless to say it never came off....

[tazznb]

Originally posted by mr evil brkfast
I think that if these specs are true, there will be a lot of unhappy people out there!

I guess, to look on the bright side, they are all dual machines.

:confused:

I know I'll be very unsatisfied too if the best they can come up with is a dual 1.25Mhz G4.

How many years have we waited for the flamin' G5? I'm getting a lot like Steve Jobs now.

I also like to have options... plenty of options. Take this as my own obsure hint.

I control the purchases for my household, and the art dept at my high school, and please make me a happy customer, again... like the good ol' days.

[awrc]

Originally posted by seven5
i paid 1599 for an 800mhz in feb.... now for 100 more i could have had a DUALLLL!?? wtf this is rediculous... i'm ****** pissed.....

I paid $3000 for a dual 1GHz in Feb - I'm pleasantly surprised it's taken six months for it to cease to be the high-end desktop machine. In the PC world it would have been obsolete in some respect within a month.

If you buy a computer, prepare for it to become obsolete. Alternatively, you could always wait six months and find out what's out then, but of course by then there'll be another generation coming down the line in just a few months. At some point you just have to put the money down and live with your decision.

I feel sorry for anyone who bought an 800MHz in July, although anyone keeping their eyes on the rumors in July should have known there was *something* coming in August. February though? Nah.

[iamspooky]

Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight


Good point, arn. I was just going to say the same thing.

Here's a buyer's tip: Go to www.apple.com as fast as your mouse and internet connection will take you and order an dual 1GHz now. You'll get bumped up to the dual 1.25GHz tomorrow, but will be locked in at the $2999 price.

I'm an edu customer, so I was able to order a dual 1GHz w/17-inch LCD for $3218 after taking off for the current promotion ($2699 + $919 w/$400 off). So I'll get a 17-inch LCD and new dual 1.25 for $3218. Pretty sweet. Of course, this is for institutional use ;-)

Aloha,
How do you know this to be true ?? and is this fact ?? I am eligible for educational products and was gonna buy soon..

thx,
Mark

[cyberfunk]

Originally posted by Horne
'I'malwaysright'

Do you really think that will work?

I highly doubt it......Some guys on a share website saw a dell 22" flat screen (something like that anyway) monitor mistakingly priced on their website. Some ordered 10x. Needless to say it never came off....

It's worked that way before.

[Mr.Hey]

Originally posted by seven5
i paid 1599 for an 800mhz in feb.... now for 100 more i could have had a DUALLLL!?? wtf this is rediculous... i'm ****** pissed.....


I'm getting a dualllly....mid level...yes I knew I should have waited....sorry about you thow

[BenRoethig]

Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight
from the article at MacMinute:
The dual-867MHz configuration is slated to ship by the end of the week, while the new dual-1GHz model will ship towards the end of the month. Availability of the high-end dual-1.25GHz model is being pegged at sometime in September.

Why does it take so long to ship a stinking dual 1GHz? We've had these since January. Pete's sake. Get the high end out first (like Apple did with the iMac G4 in January). Why peddle the low-end first?

The Dual 867 (133x6.5) is going to have a PPC 7450 with a 133mhz Bus and PC133 SDRAM

The new Dual 1ghz (166x6) and 1.25ghz (166x7.5) are going to use a PPC 7470 with a 166mhz bus and PC333 DDR SDRAM.

The new 1ghz G4 and the old 1 ghz G4 are not the same chip.

[whatever]

I'm currently using a 3 year old 500mhz G4 and whenever people see it and use it they think it's alot faster and cooler (granted my Cinema Display and sound sticks help) than their Wintel machines (which are ussually newer machines). They all comment that apps like IE and Office appear to be faster on my Mac and they're always amazed that my Mac has only crashed three times since I got it (two of those crashes were harddrive crashes). Why am I sharing this with you, well, I think that sometimes we forget that a Mac is greater than the sum of all it's parts.

Just remember that tomorrow when we all complain about what Apple releases. It may not stack up against the Wintel world, but then again on paper neither does a Sun box, but they are better machines too.

Whatever

[bobindashadows]

According to my calculator, 867/166=5.222891.... which doesn't sound like a multiplier that apple would use. While the actual numbers are really 866.666666 and 166.6666, it comes out to about 5.2. Not a possible multiplier, and apple could only do it if they didn't include the faster bus in the low end, which i don't think they've been taking all this time to do.

[Horne]

Can I go slightly OT on this one?....

Regarding educational prices on the Apple website:

I am a teacher in the UK, but I do not have authorization to buy new Macs.
From what i gathered on the Apple website was that I was eligable for a couple of offers, ie: An 800 PM for a saving of about £80/$120 ish. THAT WAS IT!

Are people who are buying dual gigs in the hope of a 1.25 for the same price authorized dealers for education establishments, or just students/teachers?

Thanks people....

Horne

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by Horne
Can I go slightly OT on this one?....

Regarding educational prices on the Apple website:

I am a teacher in the UK, but I do not have authorization to buy new Macs.
From what i gathered on the Apple website was that I was eligable for a couple of offers, ie: An 800 PM for a saving of about £80/$120 ish. THAT WAS IT!

Are people who are buying dual gigs in the hope of a 1.25 for the same price authorized dealers for education establishments, or just students/teachers?

I am guessing that they are using the higher education faculty and staff choice from the education page, and not the institution one. The faculty and staff limits you to one desktop and one laptop per academic year.

[obeygiant]

okay. I just found out from www.thesearetherealspecrumorsforthenewmac.com

802mHz $1599
Dual 999mHz $2499
Dual 1.000000000123 mHz $3499


I AM OVER-FRICKIN-WHELMED


the iMac rules

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by bobindashadows
According to my calculator, 867/166=5.222891.... which doesn't sound like a multiplier that apple would use. While the actual numbers are really 866.666666 and 166.6666, it comes out to about 5.2. Not a possible multiplier, and apple could only do it if they didn't include the faster bus in the low end, which i don't think they've been taking all this time to do.
867/133=6.5
Obviously,and according to MacMinute they will have 133 MHz bus.
Apple always puts something much slower in low-end models.
New dual gig seems like a fair deal to me.

[peterjhill]

Does anyone else realize that the filemaker user conference is going on right now. I wonder if they will announce the new machines there.

[cyks]

Everyone was so estatic when they thought YDM's guesses were right... but the same people are upset with the new ones- why?

I realize the top of the line machine isn't quite what was hoped- Dual 1.6 down to a 1.25... but look at the other 2 configs!

I don't know about you- but I would eagerly prefer a Dual 1GHz to a single 1.4GHz chip.
But then, maybe it's just me.

Especially with 10.2 optimizing on Duals...

just my .02


Anyone?

[arn]

Originally posted by cyks
Everyone was so estatic when they thought YDM's guesses were right... but the same people are upset with the new ones- why?

I realize the top of the line machine isn't quite what was hoped- Dual 1.6 down to a 1.25... but look at the other 2 configs!

I don't know about you- but I would eagerly prefer a Dual 1GHz to a single 1.4GHz chip.
But then, maybe it's just me.


yep... people... let's go through this:

Dual 867 vs 1.2ghz G4
The Dual is the better machine under OS X

Dual 1ghz vs 1.4ghz G4
The Dual is the better machine under OS X

arn

[kaneda]

Man, 1.25 ghz for 3299...I can get a PC dual 2.0 ghz for that same price...I really hate Apple computer! It is a better be DDR...Man!!!

[MacArtist]

Not to go off topic but...

Originally posted by awrc


Uh, 333 DDR is pretty much the standard on the current generation of Athlon boards, so how is a 166MHz bus so strange?

As quoted on the AMD site
266MHz AMD Athlon™ XP processor system bus

If I'm not mistaken this is a 133x2 system bus, not a 166x2 system bus. The bus on the XPs can be overclocked to 166 but that's neither here nor there.

back on topic...

An all dual line-up would be a nice consolation prize for the power hungry Mac fan. Couple than with all of the improvements in OS X10.2 and hopefully full DDR support, it would make for one hell of a PowerMac. (emphasis on Power)

[MacArtist]

Originally posted by ImAlwaysRight


Good point, arn. I was just going to say the same thing.

Here's a buyer's tip: Go to www.apple.com as fast as your mouse and internet connection will take you and order an dual 1GHz now. You'll get bumped up to the dual 1.25GHz tomorrow, but will be locked in at the $2999 price.

I'm an edu customer, so I was able to order a dual 1GHz w/17-inch LCD for $3218 after taking off for the current promotion ($2699 + $919 w/$400 off). So I'll get a 17-inch LCD and new dual 1.25 for $3218. Pretty sweet. Of course, this is for institutional use ;-)

I say give it a shot but don't get your hopes up. When the Tibooks got updated to the combo-drives a friend of mine had ordered one about 4 days before then an was updated to the combo-drive. There however was no change in price or other specs.

With your technique, I'd bet that you still get the dual 1GHz at the lower price instead of the dual 1.25GHz for less.

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by whatever
I'm currently using a 3 year old 500mhz G4 and whenever people see it and use it they think it's alot faster and cooler (granted my Cinema Display and sound sticks help) than their Wintel machines (which are ussually newer machines). They all comment that apps like IE and Office appear to be faster on my Mac and they're always amazed that my Mac has only crashed three times since I got it (two of those crashes were harddrive crashes). Why am I sharing this with you, well, I think that sometimes we forget that a Mac is greater than the sum of all it's parts.

Just remember that tomorrow when we all complain about what Apple releases. It may not stack up against the Wintel world, but then again on paper neither does a Sun box, but they are better machines too.

Whatever

hear! hear!

Originally posted by arn
Dual 867 vs 1.2ghz G4
The Dual is the better machine under OS X

Dual 1ghz vs 1.4ghz G4
The Dual is the better machine under OS X

amen

i love my 500Mhz iBook and wouldn't give it up for an athlon or intel 2ghz machine. it's as simple as that, we have better machines with better software.

people have said it here before, sun and sgi make killer machines but don't have uber ghz cpus. get over the megahertz myth. numbers are not everything. if they were no one would still be buying macs

[Liske]

No one talks about sound issues here which i find quite important in the whole user experience realm.

I AM TALKING ABOUT FAN NOISE.

I have always been MAC, am 100% macaddict, but have had wintels for cross checking web work that I do. Recently I can't get over how quiet my 1.8 pentium is while my g4 867 sounds like a 737 taking off. Is there anyone out there in the same boat as me and/or does anyone think these new g4 machines will be quieter?

Thanks All
Jason

oh and PS if the deal on preordering the old G4 for a new 1.2 exchange works I am down with it my wife is a teacher. If you know anything please email me jason@redwooddesign.com

[Escher]

Instead of stealing somebody else's thoughts, I'll just quote SkullMac from this thread (http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002339&p=2) in the AppleInsider boards. In summary, tomorrow will be a Yikes!-type situation with the old 133Mhz bus on the low-end model and a new 166Mhz bus on the mid-range and high-end PowerMac.

Originally posted by SkullMac:
Alright, a bit of speculation on my part in regards to the MacMinute specs, but bear with me.

As for the current bus speed ratios:
800/133 = 6
933/133 = 7
1000/133 = 7.5

As for the upcoming ratios, let's try a 133 MHz bus speed.
867/133 = 6.5 (this works)
1000/133 = 7.5 (again, this works)
1250/133 9.39 (this doesn't work, it'd have to be either a 1197MHz or 1264MHz G4. I doubt they would short change themselves and round 1264MHz down to 1250.)

What about a 166 MHz bus?
867/166 = 5.22 (nope)
1000/166 = 6 (this works)
1250/166 = 7.5 (works as well)

What does this mean? If the proc speeds reported by MacMinute are 100% correct, then the following points hold:
- The 867 machine MUST have a 133 MHz bus, or some multiple thereof (i.e. 266)
- The 1000 machine can have a bus of either 133 or 166 or a multiple thereof (i.e. 333)
- The 1250 machine must have a bus of 166 or a multiple thereof (i.e. 333).
****
EDIT: In short, 333 DDR RAM is almost guaranteed in the 1250 model.

Escher

[MacArtist]

Originally posted by i_b_joshua
people have said it here before, sun and sgi make killer machines but don't have uber ghz cpus. get over the megahertz myth. numbers are not everything. if they were no one would still be buying macs

Sun Blade 2000 workstation
--up to 2x1050MHz UltraSPARC® III Cu processors
--starting at ~$11,000 with 1 900MHz cpu

Sgi workstations
--up to 2x600MHz R14000A processors
--starting at ~$11,000 for entry level computer with single 500MHz R14000A processor

IMB Power4 up to 1.3 GHz
--1GHz Power4 sever starting at $12,495

These are some of the real heavy hitters in the workstation/server markets.

MHz/GHz isn't everything.

Granted the current crop of PowerMacs aren't the fastest machines in benchmarks, but as I stated before...

An all dual line-up would be a nice consolation prize for the power hungry Mac fan. Couple than with all of the improvements in OS X10.2 and hopefully full DDR support, it would make for one hell of a PowerMac. (emphasis on Power)

[robguz]

And why there was no speed bump at MWNY. If the low end tower is 867, even if it's dual, it would be poor marketing if the iMac was much faster in raw Mhz. Hopefully that doesn't mean it will be forever before the iMacs are updated. At least give them a ******** L3 cache!

Let's hope the PowerBook is next in line for a substantial upgrade, not that 250Mhz and $300 is a substantial upgrade.

[ktlx]

Originally posted by BenRoethig

The new Dual 1ghz (166x6) and 1.25ghz (166x7.5) are going to use a PPC 7470 with a 166mhz bus and PC333 DDR SDRAM.


Maybe, maybe not. ThinkSecret and others are predicting that the top of the line will be a 1.2Ghz and not a 1.25Ghz. I think a 1.2Ghz processor makes more sense because it makes less of an impact on both Apple and Motorola. If you go with 1.2Ghz, then both the PowerMacs and Xserve use the same memory. It also means that Motorola simply changes to a DDR FSB instead of making both the change to DDR FSB and an FSB speed increase.

Either way, I hope the rumors pan out. I think this is good news. The people expecting an uber upgrade with no media event to back it up were deluding themselves. Do you really think Apple would introduce dual 1.6Ghz G4s in all new cases or a 64-bit PowerPC processor from IBM with only just a press release? Please, those are upgrades you want to showcase at a MacWorld event.

[danman]

Don't get too worked up, those that are complaining around here:

A Dual 1.25Ghz G4 with 166x2 bus would quite easily be an equal for a circa 3Ghz P1V.
Motorola is not about to make some giant performance leap. (Granted, if they could actually make fast chips, we would see a 1.6Ghz G4 dual ****ting all over a PIV)

You should not be complaining that Apple will release a machine that can compete with the top end of the Wintel world, when as mentioned you are not just buying a speedy machine when you buy a Mac.

Hopefully, we will see in the next 6 months/year some advances that will take Apple into the lead, though don't expect to see machines "twice as fast as anything in the Wintel world", it just ain't feasible.

[Ovi]

1

[agoldweber]

as a new owner of a dual 1GHz (no I don't care too much about the price drop, I got the Crystal Clear rebate), I have quickly become a believer in the full-time multi-tasking dual-processing power that lives under there.

you people speak of "nominal" and "modest" speed bumps. we're talking a 200+ Mhz increase rumored to be released. now, all you spreadsheet and webbrowser speed freaks won't notice anything. big deal.

but real processor-intensive stuff will show the difference. 20% increase on an hour render is productive.

some of you people are ridiculous cranks!

[Wry Cooter]

You know, at this point, even if the mid level was dual 1.4 or 1.5, I wouldn't bite, because I expect something even better 6 months from now (The only downside then would be that something announced in SF would boot ONLY in OS X)

And you probably have to have at least one iteration with a new motherboard and old CPUs, to iron out kinks. When G4s were first announced, Yikes was not much more than a Blue and White with a G4 added. In this case, you have a better mobo, hopefully, with whatever ***** for Chips you can grub up. You need at least one generation with the older Mobo architecture, as a bridge- it seems to have been that way with PBs, iBooks, and iMacs so far.

[agoldweber]

Originally posted by Wry Cooter
You know, at this point, even if the mid level was dual 1.4 or 1.5, I wouldn't bite, because I expect something even better 6 months from now (The only downside then would be that something announced in SF would boot ONLY in OS X)


indeed. as I've predicted, they won't go whole hog until G5s that won't boot in 9, take advantage of DDR and FSB jumps and a new case.

market doesn't truly demand that now (tho many people on here do).

let's face it: sales are gonna be down for awhile. no matter what's released.

[makkystyle]

this new line-up sounds good (not great) but what is the story with the powerbooks??? are there no upgrades planned for them as well???

[jadam]

Originally posted by agoldweber


indeed. as I've predicted, they won't go whole hog until G5s that won't boot in 9, take advantage of DDR and FSB jumps and a new case.

market doesn't truly demand that now (tho many people on here do).

let's face it: sales are gonna be down for awhile. no matter what's released.


err market does demand it NOW! Intel is releasing 3ghz PIVs and AMD is releasing 64bit 2ghz hammers(vapor as of yet) now we all know the new 2ghz Power4s are NOT vapor or else IBM would have never announced them :D the G5s are vapor heh


Anyways, these systems are really nice, duals across the line, and heh, i could now get a low end mac, and in reality have on speed demon, hehehehehehe. I wonder how VPC will run on the Dual 1.25ghz computers with X.2 and if connectix got off there lazy asses and starting using some more HLE.

you know why Graphics card performance is so slow under VPC???

because Connectix decided to emulate the video card because its "more compatible" err bull **** connectix, sure it is faster, but when writing an emulator, especially one emulating Fast computers not just simple little 6502s or z80s, Interpretation would be the WORST thing you could possibly do, what Connectix needs is to start using some High Level Emulation in there emulator. heh, at least there using a dynamic recompiling core for there x86 emulation. If they were using an interpreter than VPC would be more dead dog slow...... but... in order to increase video performance, connectix needs to utilize the video card to actually do the drawing. Thats called HLE where instead of actually emulating the video card through the CPU(like they do in this case, a S3 Virge i believe), you could just use the Macs video card as if it was the PCs video card... err Connectix!!!!!!! and BTW, i know a thing or too about emulation so i know what im talking about. http://pocketsx.ngemu.com


and HAHAHAHAHAHA to my 31337 post before heh

[goobus]

i have a 266mhz beige and i don't need a new pm right away but i want oen do u think i shoudl wait until san fran?

[agoldweber]

Originally posted by jadam

err market does demand it NOW! Intel is releasing 3ghz PIVs and AMD is releasing 64bit 2ghz hammers(vapor as of yet) now we all know the new 2ghz Power4s are NOT vapor or else IBM would have never announced them :D the G5s are vapor heh


wow. that does sound fast. I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't know or care squat about the Windows world. I know they're looking for 'switchers,' but the campaign at present is really OS-centered--that is: that Macs work better (regardless of speed).

so yeah, I guess when I talk market I mean current Mac users.

[arn]

For those expecting G5's in January... it doesn't seem likely.

arn

[Hawthorne]

Originally posted by jadam



err market does demand it NOW! Intel is releasing 3ghz PIVs and AMD is releasing 64bit 2ghz hammers(vapor as of yet) now we all know the new 2ghz Power4s are NOT vapor or else IBM would have never announced them :D the G5s are vapor heh

Looking at dell.com, ibm.com and gateway.com, I fail to see a machine with a 3 Ghz P4. Now, I know they are coming, and to some, that matters.

To me, though, it doesn't matter. A P4 doesn't run OS X. It doesn't have iPhoto. And my little 700mhz iBook is more than fast enough for all the apps I use on it, positively screaming compared to my old Lombard. And it has the added advantage of not crashing into a flaming pile of $&!^ every hour on the hour.

[gernb]

i use a mac to make a living. the new line up is too little too late. they should have been introducing this stuff MANY months ago.

what stinks is that i'm stuck with it. not sure at this point if the hardware is behind simply because apple shot its collective wad on FINALLY fixing the new OS, or if they've been pimped out far too long by motorola.

whatever the case, as much as i love apple...and am bound to them for as long as there's really no suitable or classy alternative...this sucks. i'm a shareholder and a die hard user. lately it seems like i'm getting kicked in the teeth on both accounts.

explain it to me if i'm wrong, but i don't see how anyone other than a casual or new user would be excited about any of the products set for release tomorrow. macs are THE computers of the creative class...and i don't think most of us are looking for machines that run Word or VPC better.

real or not, the specs release on that "other" site earlier today are more along the lines of what we should be expecting from a company that claims to think different.

here's an idea...how 'bout thinking different and suprising your loyal user base for a change instead of delivering the same old lack luster, hold-you- over-until-something-better-comes-along crap.

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by arn
For those expecting G5's in January... it doesn't seem likely.

arn

I'm not expecting a g5 in January, but I would hope for something slightly better in some small way(besides I have other rea$ons for not buying now). Are you saying we will not see a speed bump on the speed bump, because of what MIGHT be announced tomorrow? That MWSF, if it were to have any hardware announcements, would be doing the Books rather than the desks?
I expect something around May of next year. Don't know why, but the expos are merely bad timing as far as the buying seasons go.

Or are you saying that a powermac change this week would be it for a year? Or a year and a half?

[drastik]

I don't know here. I mean, we're due an upgrade, its 99% gonna happen tomorrow, but the whole line has been dual before, and it didn't work. Maybe dual from the midpoint up, but I still look for a single processor entry level.

[peter2002]

Man, I am waiting til 2003 to buy a new PowerMac. I am not impressed. Steve's new PowerMacs are just for folks whom just had their PowerMac stolen or fried in a storm

Peter

[Yosh]

People,

Dual 1.25 Ghz is not that bad. In fact, if it is "only" a bump to 1.25 Ghz, Apple would be practically right on track w/ Andy Groves prediction of computer speeds doubling every 18 mos. Since Motorola finally pushed beyond the 500 mhz barrier they were stuck at for almost 2 years, Apple has been bumping speeds by about 25% every 6 mos. So....

Just do the math:

July 2001 - dual 800 mhz
x 1.25 =
Jan 2002 - dual 1000 mhz
x 1.25 =
Aug 2002 - dual 1250 mhz
x 1.25 =
Feb 2003 - dual 1562 mhz ???**

1562 mhz is 1.95x 800 mhz - practically 2x increase in processor speed in 18 months.
**Assuming Apple's next speed bump is also another 25% increase.

I think people are getting too panicky over the whole speed issue. Yes, intel more than doubles their processor speeds every18 mos. However, due to short pipelines and significantly higher # of stages and other tricks done to get those speeds, the ACTUAL PERFORMANCE of their chips are not increased by the same percentage. IOW, a 2.4 Ghz pentium is NOT 2x faster than a 1.2 Ghz pentium, but probably more like 2x faster than an 800 mhz pentium.

That's why AMD's 1.7 Ghz chips can still outperfrom Intel's 2.4 Ghz chips.

I've been creeping along on my beige G3/233 overclocked to 292 mhz for almost 5 years now. Other than basic word processing, accounting and internet stuff, I do a lot of artwork in photoshop. Yes, my beige G3 is slow, but I am still able to manipulate large 60MB+ images in a reasonable amount of time on my 5 year old computer with only 384MB of RAM w/ a hard drive hooked up to an ATA/33 interface (that's right, 33, NOT 133!)

I've wanted to upgrade since last January and, like the rest of you, were very disappointed that those rumored 1.6 Ghz G5s weren't released. I almost bought the dual 1 Ghz, but decided to hold out for stuff like DDR and faster FSB, ATA100.

Then, last month, I just got tired of waiting and tired of the noise my G3 tower was putting out and bought a 800 mhz TiBook with Cinema Display. I'm THRILLED with my new purchase. This computer FLIES with 10.1.5 and is even faster with the 6115C build of 10.2 I'm running on it now.

The ironic thing about all this is, it's a blessing in disguise that Wintel users are able to upgrade to significantly faster rated CPUs every 6 mos because, the truth is, they *NEED TO* upgrade their machines every 6 mos to 24 mos at the latest to run all the latest software and maintain useability of their systems. Whereas, for Apple owners such as myself, it is an *OPTION* to upgrade to a new computer - even after 5 years!

Why are there SOOO many Mac users, such as myself, that are able to continually complain and put off buying a new computer when they have been ready to do so for a very long time? Simply, BECAUSE WE CAN! All of our old systems still WORK for us, so, we bitch and whine and put off our purchase for the next 6 mos, then another 6 mos... all the while hoping to hit that magical exponential increase in power. Wintel users do not have this LUXURY.

If you are like myself, when Apple announces their new machines tomorrow, or next week or month, I have 3 words for you...

JUST DO IT


Yosh

[cyberfunk]

I for one, dont really have a choice, like Yosh, I've been on a old Beige for 4.5 Years, and the time has come to put poor Bessie away (the name of my hard drive, 6 GB was big then..).

So, basically, whatever Apple puts out tomorrow, I'm obligated to buy, so I just hope it's decent.

[iamspooky]

Aloha,

Please bear with me with these trivial questions, (I am new to Mac)...

How will we know what speed the front side bus is and if it takes advantage of the DDR ram??

and...

How will we know if it boots in OS9 ?? Not OS9 with the yellow wrapper (or whatever you call it) ??

I need a new system to run my Protools rig so any good advice will get you a free guided tour of the North Shore of Oahu..

Mahalo,
Mark:cool:

[mdurg]

What's everyone going to do when they don't announce new models tomorrow?

[Johnny7896]

Relax people!!!

First, these are just rumors.
Second, Whatever comes out will be much better overall preformance.
Third, be faithful........

[Cappy]

Originally posted by awrc


Uh, 333 DDR is pretty much the standard on the current generation of Athlon boards, so how is a 166MHz bus so strange?

You're talking memory...not frontside bus speed. Apples and oranges.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by jadam



err market does demand it NOW! Intel is releasing 3ghz PIVs and AMD is releasing 64bit 2ghz hammers(vapor as of yet) now we all know the new 2ghz Power4s are NOT vapor or else IBM would have never announced them :D the G5s are vapor heh


Anyways, these systems are really nice, duals across the line, and heh, i could now get a low end mac, and in reality have on speed demon, hehehehehehe. I wonder how VPC will run on the Dual 1.25ghz computers with X.2 and if connectix got off there lazy asses and starting using some more HLE.

you know why Graphics card performance is so slow under VPC???

because Connectix decided to emulate the video card because its "more compatible" err bull **** connectix, sure it is faster, but when writing an emulator, especially one emulating Fast computers not just simple little 6502s or z80s, Interpretation would be the WORST thing you could possibly do, what Connectix needs is to start using some High Level Emulation in there emulator. heh, at least there using a dynamic recompiling core for there x86 emulation. If they were using an interpreter than VPC would be more dead dog slow...... but... in order to increase video performance, connectix needs to utilize the video card to actually do the drawing. Thats called HLE where instead of actually emulating the video card through the CPU(like they do in this case, a S3 Virge i believe), you could just use the Macs video card as if it was the PCs video card... err Connectix!!!!!!! and BTW, i know a thing or too about emulation so i know what im talking about. http://pocketsx.ngemu.com


and HAHAHAHAHAHA to my 31337 post before heh

Considering that IBM announced 1 GHz G3s a while back and apparently, the best they've shipped is the 700 for desktop applications, I wouldn't put faith into a processor I haven't seen. It may be an offshoot of the Power4 line but it's still PowerPC and it's not likely ready.

As far as Connectix goes, I think they've been fighting compatibility issues which is funny since they control the hardware. Perhaps, if they followed Apple's example and coded all video as OpenGL with the Z coordinate as zero, VPC might be quite a bit faster. They might even be able to just support OpenGL-based games by calling OpenGL with the OpenGL call parameters from Windows.

They done some nice things like the drive journaling, but accelerated video would be nice.

[whfsdude]

Maybe Jobs will pull one on us just like Gates pulled one while watching re-runs of Martha Stewert :D :D :D

[i_wolf]

just me two cents. I will be extremely disappointed if the "high end " is only 1.2Ghz. I am a huge user of MAYA.... and the fact that apple has OS X ( absolutely fantastic) and MAYA under the one roof i was fairly certain i would upgrade to the fastest or ultimate model. But currently i am disappointed the way MAYA runs under dual 1Ghz... i was allowed the loan of a college machine. i need to buy a new machine for college which is starting in mid september. i need to consider what platform will run MAYA best. Unfortunately in this sector of the creative market performance matters. I want these machines to be faster than what i am seeing on screen. Here's hoping.

[jrbohorquezg]

Guys, I think the wait is over.

I just went to amazon.com and they post ALL powermacs as either discontinued or out of stock. So this, combined with all of the other e-sellers that are reported to be out of stock plus the suspicious comment that an apple sales rep made today at the local CompUSA make be seriously beleieve that tomorrow will be the day!

I'll get whatever the announce, finally, dude I'm getting a Mac!!

[cyberfunk]

Originally posted by mdurg
What's everyone going to do when they don't announce new models tomorrow?

Well, first, we'll all come over to your house for jinxing it, and then, well, then your screwed, and we have fun thinking up an appropriate punishment.

[cyberfunk]

Originally posted by Cappy


You're talking memory...not frontside bus speed. Apples and oranges.

not exactly, DDR stands for double data rate memory, as in double the FSB speed, as in 2 x 166 = 333 DDR Ram

[JEdiBeavis]

Originally posted by jrbohorquezg
Guys, I think the wait is over.

I just went to amazon.com and they post ALL powermacs as either discontinued or out of stock. So this, combined with all of the other e-sellers that are reported to be out of stock plus the suspicious comment that an apple sales rep made today at the local CompUSA make be seriously beleieve that tomorrow will be the day!

I'll get whatever the announce, finally, dude I'm getting a Mac!!

eMacs also discontinued/out of stock.

[cyberfunk]

I was just talking on the phone with the Apple store, and bla blah blah, and then out of the blue, casually, I asked what time tomorrow I could order the new macs, and she said around 2 PM EST, then I heard her say, OH **** under her breath, and I was promptly hung up upon.

sounds good to me !!!

[vniow]

Niiiiiiiiiiice.
:cool:

[cyberfunk]

Originally posted by edvniow
Niiiiiiiiiiice.
:cool:

Gotta love social engineering !

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by cyberfunk
I was just talking on the phone with the Apple store, and bla blah blah, and then out of the blue, casually, I asked what time tomorrow I could order the new macs, and she said around 2 PM EST, then I heard her say, OH **** under her breath, and I was promptly hung up upon.

sounds good to me !!!

If that's true, that's the funniest slip-up I've ever heard of an Apple employee making in a while.:D

[cyberfunk]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


If that's true, that's the funniest slip-up I've ever heard of an Apple employee making in a while.:D

Quite true, took some work there, I knew if I just out and asked she'd have picked up on it, but I'd figured they'd been breifed on it. I was asking her about iMacs and such, and power needs, then was like, oh yea, I need one of those new powermacs, what time tomorrow can I order one ?

I hope it wasnt one of those recorded calls, for her sake. ehehehe

[job]

Originally posted by cyberfunk
I was just talking on the phone with the Apple store, and bla blah blah, and then out of the blue, casually, I asked what time tomorrow I could order the new macs, and she said around 2 PM EST, then I heard her say, OH **** under her breath, and I was promptly hung up upon.

sounds good to me !!!

Got her extension? :D

[zulgand04]

was just on the apple web site, and in the search box typed in powermcs and at the top of the sreen had a pic of a powermac with a price of 1,699$. And like a poster early said, the same thing worked with the power books, 2,199$ for the 667.

[billiam0878]

Originally posted by zulgand04
was just on the apple web site, and in the search box typed in powermcs and at the top of the sreen had a pic of a powermac with a price of 1,699$. And like a poster early said, the same thing worked with the power books, 2,199$ for the 800.

I just checked it out also-- Wouldn't the "From $2199" mean starting at $2199, and thus the 667 would be $2199 while the 800 would be more like $2999? That is unless a new model were introduced and 800 became the base :)

Bill

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by cyberfunk
I was just talking on the phone with the Apple store, and bla blah blah, and then out of the blue, casually, I asked what time tomorrow I could order the new macs, and she said around 2 PM EST, then I heard her say, OH **** under her breath, and I was promptly hung up upon.

sounds good to me !!!

Man, yer sh*ttin... :D I wish I could believe that! Nothing personal, cyberfunk, but I think yer full of it. :p That story is simply too good to be true!

[MacArtist]

Originally posted by i_wolf
just me two cents. I will be extremely disappointed if the "high end " is only 1.2Ghz. I am a huge user of MAYA.... and the fact that apple has OS X ( absolutely fantastic) and MAYA under the one roof i was fairly certain i would upgrade to the fastest or ultimate model. But currently i am disappointed the way MAYA runs under dual 1Ghz... i was allowed the loan of a college machine. i need to buy a new machine for college which is starting in mid september. i need to consider what platform will run MAYA best. Unfortunately in this sector of the creative market performance matters. I want these machines to be faster than what i am seeing on screen. Here's hoping.
Judging a machine based on how Maya runs currently on OS X is very unfair considering that Maya 3.5.1 for OS X is only using 1 processor. When Maya 4.5 comes out in September it will run so much better on a dual processor PowerMac because Alias/Wavefront has finally made it full multiprocessor aware. What will really hurt Maya 4.5 on the Mac is not the processor but the lack of a workstation graphics card (i.e. Quadro4 or Fire GL).



Originally posted by drastik
I don't know here. I mean, we're due an upgrade, its 99% gonna happen tomorrow, but the whole line has been dual before, and it didn't work. Maybe dual from the midpoint up, but I still look for a single processor entry level.
The whole PowerMac line has never been dual from low end to high end before.
The closest it ever came was in 2000 when the gigabit ethernet G4s were anounced (400MHz, dual 450MHz, dual 500MHz).



It would be nice to have a dual 1.6GHz G4 that could hand any P4 its a$$ (including the up coming 3GHz P4).
But I for one would love a dual 1.25GHz and OS X 10.2 that can trounce current shipping Athlons and P4s.



Originally posted by cyberfunk
not exactly, DDR stands for double data rate memory, as in double the FSB speed, as in 2 x 166 = 333 DDR Ram
Eventhough Athlon mobo's support DDR333 and DDR400, the system bus on the current XPs is 133x2.



Just 3 words for those of you expecting HUGE updates
get over it

[zulgand04]

billiam0878 yes i know, i ment 667. i did't notice the typo till u pointed it out.

[jrbohorquezg]

Originally posted by cyberfunk
I was just talking on the phone with the Apple store, and bla blah blah, and then out of the blue, casually, I asked what time tomorrow I could order the new macs, and she said around 2 PM EST, then I heard her say, OH **** under her breath, and I was promptly hung up upon.

sounds good to me !!!

C'mon man, are you for real? Tell us the truth, and if it didn't really happen, we'll understand (we get carried away sometimes too!)

[cyberfunk]

Originally posted by hitman


Got her extension? :D

sounds like a cheap pickup line ;)

[cyberfunk]

The best part, was when I called right back, got someone else, and they paused for about 2 seconds and went, uhmm..... what new powermacs in that "I cant tell you anything " voice. It's great putting people on the spot !

[Speculator]

Is anybody else wondering about the spec separation here? Last time I checked, 1.4Ghz was looking like a likely candidate for a reliable processor. ThinkSecret lists dual-1Ghz and dual 1.2 -- nothing about 1.25. What if Apple has decided that a cheaper solution for the high-end would be four chips at a lower clockspeed? I just don't buy the 1.2 / 1.25 difference. I think the folks at the rumor mills are just protecting their sources and saving the surprise for tomorrow. Macosrumors reported a week or so ago on the likelihood of quad-processors for the PowerMac. But I don't know about the pricing scheme. $3299 for quad 1.2's would be mighty inexpensive don't you think?

[bacon]

Originally posted by Cappy


You're talking memory...not frontside bus speed. Apples and oranges.

Bottom line: DDR 333 memory is available and Apple could utilize it. The Athlon not having a DDR 333 front side bus is completely irrelevant.

[DannyZR2]

Is this a 24hour Apple Store phone line???? I didn't think they were open all night! (I am calling you out)

but if they are open all night and you are telling the truth..

YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID.. "yes I'll take the dual 1.4" and see what she said.. so we could have had a better idea of what was coming!

:)

[Cappy]

Originally posted by cyberfunk


not exactly, DDR stands for double data rate memory, as in double the FSB speed, as in 2 x 166 = 333 DDR Ram

You're missing the boat dude. Trust me on this. Even on my pc that I own I can run run a frontside bus speed of 133 with a memory bus speed of 166 that with ddr makes it 333. Apples and oranges like I said before. You can't just take the speed of ddr ram and halve it to get your frontside bus speed.

Something like this might be coming down the pipe from Apple but I seriously doubt Apple is going to lead the industry on a 166Mhz frontside bus as standard spec. It's very un-Applelike although I'm sure many will disagree. :)

[DannyZR2]

I thought there were 533mhz FSB's out there.. My friend just bought one!

[Cappy]

Originally posted by bacon


Bottom line: DDR 333 memory is available and Apple could utilize it. The Athlon not having a DDR 333 front side bus is completely irrelevant.

That's not the bottom line if you go back to what sparked my response.

Many here are thinking that DDR 333 means that the frontside bus runs at 166 and that's totally false. The memory bus and frontside bus can be set independently if Apple wants to. That's the bottom line.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see 166Mhz fsb on Macs but I seriously doubt anyone is going to see that on this line.

[Cappy]

Originally posted by DannyZR2
I thought there were 533mhz FSB's out there.. My friend just bought one!

That would be a rambus based P4 system. The frontside bus is really running at 133 but intel does this funky quad pumped routine to get 533 out of it. I don't know the technical details of it but I'm sure someone else here does. :)

[GamerX]

:o ... and a Superdrive eMac will be introduced.



Great if this is true Steve wants to sink all Imac sales to the bottom of Davie Jones Locker.

[DannyZR2]

Originally posted by billiam0878


I just checked it out also-- Wouldn't the "From $2199" mean starting at $2199, and thus the 667 would be $2199 while the 800 would be more like $2999? That is unless a new model were introduced and 800 became the base :)

Bill

Perhaps reduced prices for the tibooks? $2199 and $2999 vs the current $2499 and $3199... we'll see! I wonder how long that shortcut has been there.

[Bradcoe]

Depending on what power macs come out of apple, ill either keep my 500mhz iBook and build a cheap wintel, or sell my iBook for $1000 and put the $ towards a new super fast power mac that can run VPC and windows (any version 98SE or later) quick enough for me to use AutoCAD, Matlab, and a bunch of other stuff im going to need for school. I just can't keep using friends computers for homework but ill never stick myself with just a wintel. I need to have a mac at all times, but id much rather have one computer than two, although i love my ibook.

[SilvorX]

i hope they do release the new pmacs tomorrow, but i was hoping for single processor macs with better speeds...
meh cant always get wha u want ;)
but the price for the dual macs are a lil too much, if those are actually the prices, i'll get a pmac 933 mzh puter probably...

[solvs]

Originally posted by DannyZR2
I thought there were 533mhz FSB's out there.. My friend just bought one!

Quad-pumped 133 FSB. The "old" P4 had a 4x100 MHz FSB, now the new Celeron will. RAMBUS is Quad-pumped too. I had a 1.6 P4 at work with RDRAM, and it was SLOW. And it sucked. Notice most chipsets have DDR support now instead. RDRAM is supposed to be SO much faster. The 2.53 is supposed to finally compensate for the P4s crappy architecture.

AMD uses a DDR FSB. 133 x 2 for their Athlons, 100 x 2 for Durons.

Now if Apple used a 166 FSB (which the G4 is capable of BTW), esp with 333 DDR Ram support, I'd be genuinely impressed. On some things it'd be really screaming. But the IBM G3 is capable of a 200 MHz FSB!!!

Even if they have to do a hack job to add DDR like with the xServe, it'll be worth it. If DDR can speed up a Celeron, and I've seen it do so first hand, it'll help the Starving-For-Bandwidth G4s.

So to answer yer question... yes. Kinda. But not really.

So then... no. I guess.

[DannyZR2]

How is everyone so sure the current apollos are starving for bandwidth???

Did you see the ddr xserve vs. powermac test?? ddr did nothing!

[RogueLdr]

Twas the night before new stuff, and all through the 'net
not a Machead was stirring: their appetites whet.
Their fingers were crossed - "A QUICKER NEW BUS!"
"AND FASTER AND SNAPPIER G4s FOR US!"

The faithful were restless and tossing in bed,
while visions of DDR danced in their heads.
Steve in his turtleneck and Phil in his tie,
had zippy new Macs for their slick GUI.

When all of a sudden their 'rose such a clatter,
"If it ain't 10 GHz, then what does it matter????"
Away to MacRumors they flew like a flash,
updated their pages and refreshed their cache.

"There need to be G4s so fast that they glow!"
2 GHz, well then, the answer is "No."
Does that mean that these G4s will not be fast?
Put your worries to rest, cause a Mac's built to last.

With a G4 in reach for at home or at school,
the Pro line needs speed so they'll all be a dual.
Have you ever heard of a Jaguar that's tame?
Intel is clocked higher. But XP, that's lame!

Now DUAL! Now DDR! OS X fixin'!
On iSync! On iCal! On iTunes for mixin'!
In the sound studio, on the Hollywood stage,
enough to make Bill Gates cry out in a rage!

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
Apple can do anything (prefaced with "i")
So to the Apple Store deal hunters flew,
to get a Quicksilver that used to be new.

And then in a second they heard on the Net:
"Love my new G4, best PowerMac yet!"
"My dual is awesome, it cannot be beat!"
"The most powerful DV box found on the street!"

The OS was elegant, stable, and hot,
As long as a "2" was what followed the "dot".
One Hundred and Fifty new features abound,
and every letter and number was round.

The icons, they sparkled. Intuitive? VERY!
And never again would networking be hairy.
Jaguar was finished and ready to go,
and multiprocessing Macs stole the show.

The users that demand a 2gig processor,
will think of the G4 as Pentium's lessor.
As for what 1.2 G4s will cream:
Anything current that Intel can dream.

The masses have been trained to look at the clock,
so they think that Wintel's the best on the block.
But those in the know can see through this deception;
they've been following Apple and Mac since inception.

No big announcement will splash in the news,
yet Mac faithful will rise up out of their pews.
For speed bumps are only one plus among many,
With 10.2 these new Macs will be uncanny,

The stage is all set as the rumors die down,
and the brand new G4 glides soft into town.
The faithful might yell, might put up a fuss,
and still love their dual with DDR bus.

Sleep well all,

RL

[wilhelmd]

RogueLdr - now that was awesome!

[cyks]

Wow. Spoken like a true Mac user. Great work.
And in just a few short hours we'll see. (Hope Hope)

....defenetly restless and tossing in bed :)

[Chryx]

Originally posted by Cappy


That would be a rambus based P4 system. The frontside bus is really running at 133 but intel does this funky quad pumped routine to get 533 out of it. I don't know the technical details of it but I'm sure someone else here does. :)

the Pentium 4's FSB is independent of the memory subsystem.

(hence it wouldn't strictly be a P4 with RDram)

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by cyks
Wow. Spoken like a true Mac user. Great work.
And in just a few short hours we'll see. (Hope Hope)

....defenetly restless and tossing in bed :)

Arn't we all forgetting something? Processors are one thing, but NEW ENCLOSURES anyone? New displays. That's pretty exciting too. Not only would your Quicksilvers be SO obsolete (at least 8 WHOLE MONTHS OLD), but the new ones will look soooo tasty.

Gimme one (or duel-ones)

my two pounds...

[beatle888]

RogueLdr

thats was wonderful :D
I've never seen anything like
that on these boards.

thanks ;)

[xample]

Hey !

Check this http://flymilesmicro.com/browse_by_brand.html?BRAND_ID=199&CATEGORY_ID=12

They sell them already !:rolleyes:

No Photo Available
Power Mac G4 Dual 1.25GHz 512MB DDR/120GB/SuperDrive/GigE/56K FREE 512MB
3299.00


No Photo Available
Power Mac G4 Dual 1GHz 256MB DDR/80GB/SuperDrive/GigE/56K FREE 256MB
2499.00


No Photo Available
Power Mac G4 Dual 867GHz 256MB DDR/60GB/DVD-CDRW/GigE/56K FREE 256MB
1699.00

[elmimmo]

Well, to me, an only dual strategy means that since even Apple thinks their processors are so stinkly sloooow, the only way to release competitive products was to add 2 of them in a machine.

Now, of course, we will not be able to fairly compare new dual Macs with new single PCs. Probably Steve is hoping not too many dual to dual comparisons are made, though...

[iwantanewmac]

BooOOO!!
What the hell is this? Is it guna take forever to get these things up to speed?
Im gunna wait until the whole line up is above 1.25 GHZ.
:(
I'm pissed

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by iwantanewmac
BooOOO!!
What the hell is this? Is it guna take forever to get these things up to speed?
Im gunna wait until the whole line up is above 1.25 GHZ.
:(
I'm pissed

I think I'm with you, I have a 500 G4 PM, and a 500 TiBook. Of course would like to upgrade, but I think I have to wait for the next generation models, be that the 'G5' or whatever, but more than a speedbump.

Keep refreshing people!

[-hh]

Originally posted by xample
Hey !

Check this http://flymilesmicro.com/browse_by_brand.html?BRAND_ID=199&CATEGORY_ID=12

They sell them already !:rolleyes:




Click-through on each of them. Not surprizingly, they're all on Back Order.

However, there's following interesting tidbits. First:

1.25GHz: Manufacture #: (none listed)
1.00GHz: Manufacture #: M8689LL/A
0.87GHz: Manufacture #: M8787LL/A

Next, in the comment field:

1.25GHz: "Stock is expected next month. Orders will be filled as soon as Apple can ship adequate supply. Place your order soon for the quickest delivery."

1.00GHz: "Stock is expected in three to four weeks...."

867mHz: "Stock is expected in two weeks..."


Sounds to me like the actual speed of the top machine has been on close hold.


-hh

[Johnny7896]

apple is updating the store right now.

[ImAlwaysRight]

Originally posted by cyberfunk
I was just talking on the phone with the Apple store, and bla blah blah, and then out of the blue, casually, I asked what time tomorrow I could order the new macs, and she said around 2 PM EST, then I heard her say, OH **** under her breath, and I was promptly hung up upon.

sounds good to me !!!

The Apple Store went down at 8 AM ET today. The note on the web page says We'll be back soon. We are busy updating the store for you and will be back within the hour.

So, either Apple is a liar, or Cyberfunk is. (Why would Apple wait until 2PM ET to take orders for the new Mac?)

[ImAlwaysRight]

Exper.com is the first reseller I know of to post the new PowerMacs

http://expercom.com/product_detail.html?PRODUCT_ID=189063

http://expercom.com/product_detail.html?PRODUCT_ID=189062

http://expercom.com/product_detail.html?PRODUCT_ID=189064

[Cappy]

Originally posted by Chryx


the Pentium 4's FSB is independent of the memory subsystem.

(hence it wouldn't strictly be a P4 with RDram)

Ah...you're correct and I knew that. Not sure what I was thinking when I posted that. Must'a been lack of sleep or something. Thanks for the correction.

[gandalf55]

man... we need better speeds than this.

[gropo]

So, either Apple is a liar, or Cyberfunk is.aaanhhhhhhh Bus-TED!!!

[giovanni]

apple store being updated .... well even though I was skeptical we were getting anything at all today, it looks like something is going on.... (it is 8:30am EST).

[Chryx]

Originally posted by gandalf55
man... we need better speeds than this.

I second that...

though making the entire memory subsystem 250Mhz Sram would probably be valid compensation for the lagging clockspeeds :)

* waits impatiently for Apple to use the new IBM PPC-64 chip *

[RogueLdr]

here they are boys!!!!

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa

[MacArtist]

RogueLdr
Twas the night before new stuff...

That's a cool read.


As I stated in an earlier post, if they are introducing new PowerMacs it'll be by 9:30-10:00am eastern. Apple has always posted the press release updates before the trading floors open in hopes of spurring the stock price.

They are on the Apple Online Store at ~8:30am eastern.

$1,699.00
Dual 867MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 1MB L3 cache/processor
133MHz System Bus
256MB PC2100 DDR SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo drive (DVD/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX
56K internal modem

Shipping in 1-3 days


$2,499.00
Dual 1GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 1MB L3 cache/processor
167MHz System Bus
256MB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
56K internal modem

Shipping in 1-3 days


$3,299.00
Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 2MB L3 cache/processor
167MHz System Bus
512MB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
120GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
56K internal modem

Shipping in 6-8 weeks


$4,999.00
Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache
& 2MB L3 cache/processor
167MHz System Bus
2.0GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
120GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive & Combo drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
56K internal modem

Shipping in 6-8 weeks

[giovanni]

new enclosures ! store is open with news ... !! nothing soooo exciting though

[gandalf55]

OK ITS UP NOW:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/293/wo/hlca40qdv52HttJa8/0.3.0.3.34.37.1.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?108,72

they are UGLY!!!!! The back is hideous in my opinion. The front not much better. Overall they offer some nice stuff... but man good thing i didnt eat breakfast yet...

[Phase IV]

The Apple store is back up.
Dual 1.25 with DDR!

See the specs for yourself!:D

[RogueLdr]

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/81/wo/lMJYY0sFZaGF3NTWc/0.3.0.3.34.37.1.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?103,66

[Johnny7896]

Looks like daul's all the way with top 1.25.
I'm sure with DDR and Jaguar taking advantage of the daul's it will be fast.
But still moto said bend over apple. All we can give you is .25 more in 8 months. Apple needs to "switch" it's self. They'll go to IBM if they're smart.
I wouldn't buy a mac now. They will up date the whole line next with a new processor line.

[giovanni]

I agree - it is a pretty weak speed bump. especially I am DYING to find out the relative performance gain going from the 133Mhz bus to the 167Mhz. I would be surprised it is of any real significant. I know nothing about processors but I am open to bets on this. Sounds like lots of bs. Like someone said earlier this is just Apple's effort to clear G4 inventory and other stuff related to the current PM. I might buy one, for me it is a no brainer since I have a 350Mhz BW G3, but I have a strong feeling Apple is just finishing up the line and getting ready for some true INNOVATION around the beginning of 2003.

[JEdiBeavis]

Bottom line eMac now comes with Combo Drive at same price as former entry-level CD-RW.

Bottom line iMac comes only with CD-RW.

Wow. That's an interesting decision.

[syco]

If I remember correctly, once Wintels hit the 1 GHz processor mark, then they started flying, adding tenths of GHz on what seems like a monthly basis. It took the industry 15 years to get to 1 GHz and 6 months to get to 2. If this can happen to those stupid Wintels, why can't the same thing happen to Macs? A major speed upgrade - 1.5 or 1.6 GHz would be a start, not this 1.25 crap - would definitely entice people who work on Wintels to switch. They're used to those high numbers like that.

[MacKenzie999]

I'm a graphics & video pro for a high-end design shop in Boston. Personally, I buy a new mac about every two years, so whatever I get typically blows away that which I am used to, so I am happy. I don't care if pc's are ten times faster than macs (although maybe I should but see no need at the moment), I just vastly prefer them for so many tangible and intangible reasons, if someone gave me a kiler pc today I would sell it and buy a better mac tomorrow.

Tofu is better for me than a cheeseburger but guess which one is more enjoyable?

$.02
-Mike

[gandalf55]

has anyone thought of the aesthetics of these new boxes yet? anyone agree that they look pretty monsterous?

[giovanni]

is the iMac on a 133Mhz bus or just 100Mhz ?

[iwantanewmac]

BAh just as I had expected.
Just a lame cheesy upgrade. They can't put in faster processors in the G4 so hey! we gunna put 2 slow ones in there.
I'll wait for a better mac.

[eirik]

The Apple website says about the new PM's memory architecture:

"The all new Power Mac G4 features rock-solid engineering reflective of the industrial-strength Xserve. Its turbo-charged dual processors are finely tuned for optimal performance with innovations providing increased memory bandwidth and faster data transfer."

As for throughput it says:

"The resulting throughput between main memory and the system controller is 2.7GBps, more than double the throughput from the previous dual 1GHz Power Mac G4."

But look at what macteens.com published about the Xserve. It states similarly higher throughput from the memory to the system controller but that the system controller is limited to 1.05 GB/s.

Is this the same system controller to CPU's limit?

[Joshlew]

The low end is a bargain!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by eirik

But look at what macteens.com published about the Xserve. It states similarly higher throughput from the memory to the system controller but that the system controller is limited to 1.05 GB/s.


I don't interpret that diagram that way- I read it as - That bottle neck is going to be there anyway, the system controller makes sure it is fed evenly and as quickly as possible from the fatter upstream pipe rather than having to wait another cycle or whatever. Does that seem like a foolish interpretation?

Its the Xserve board design- the controller, the traffic cop makes it go FASTER not slower, by making sure there are no wrecks.

[bacon]

Originally posted by Wry Cooter


I don't interpret that diagram that way- I read it as - That bottle neck is going to be there anyway, the system controller makes sure it is fed evenly and as quickly as possible from the fatter upstream pipe rather than having to wait another cycle or whatever. Does that seem like a foolish interpretation?

Its the Xserve board design- the controller, the traffic cop makes it go FASTER not slower, by making sure there are no wrecks.

Unfortunately what it means is that the dual CPUs don't have two 166MHz busses to the system controller, therefore the DDR memory is next to useless. I'm assuming that the AGP bus has its own connection to main memory... if not then the DDR ram is truly useless.