going from USA to Holland

[rainman::|:|]

Hi All,

My partner and I are very seriously considering moving from Iowa, USA to the Netherlands, most likely Amsterdam (I'd spend so much of my time there, it would be silly to live anywhere else). This is the first international move for either of us, and information about Amsterdam seems to be conflicted right now. I'm hoping people familiar with the Netherlands will be able to shed some insight on the questions below, and anything else you think we should know.

-Is the employment situation in Amsterdam really so bad? To start with, we're both willing to take entry-level jobs in just about any industry. Obviously we'll be hunting for jobs that allow for English-only people, until we pick up enough Dutch (and we will be trying to learn some before we go). Also we'll be looking for jobs that will help us get a work permit. I'm going to try to transfer there in my current company, which would solve this problem, but I doubt that will work. My partner has an English degree and I have an IT background, tho no degree (i may resume my studies there).

-Can we get a decent, 3-room (or more) apartment anywhere between Oosterpark, Westerpark and Vondelpark for less than EUR 1.000? I'd really like to be inside the centre circle, if possible, but I have a feeling this is going to be expensive. I don't mind living in a seedy (bad) neighborhood, at least to start with.

-Are the foreign police really as bad as everyone says? Are they going to deny me residence and work permits?

-What is the current view of American expatriates? We aren't going to insert ourselves in Dutch politics, which I know is a point of contention. You guys do your thing, we just want to quietly live there. Will we be treated well or will we need to watch our backs?

Like I said, anything else you can tell us is most appreciated.

Thanks!
paul

[iJon]

That's so awesome Paul. I love Amsterdam and Holland in general. I know absolutely nothing about what you want to know, only that I am jealous :). I live such a lavish life provided by parents here in the States, but nothing seems cooler to me than just being on my own in some other country just making ends meet and having a good time. Hope you figure everything out. How soon do you guys plan on moving?

iJon

[rainman::|:|]

That's so awesome Paul. I love Amsterdam and Holland in general. I know absolutely nothing about what you want to know, only that I am jealous :). I live such a lavish life provided by parents here in the States, but nothing seems cooler to me than just being on my own in some other country just making ends meet and having a good time. Hope you figure everything out. How soon do you guys plan on moving?

iJon

Thanks for the kind words :) Amsterdam is such a vibrant city, so full of culture... I've always wanted to live somewhere with more than 300 years of history. Not to mention it's one of the most socially progressive places on Earth, and that has to be amazing to see. I know what you mean, we're both settled into a nice middle-class lifestyle here with the beginnings of careers, and we'd be starting from scratch over there-- but i think it would be worth it, i know too many old people that wish they had done things like this in their youth.

We're targeting June as a move date, but that's flexible and may get pushed back a bit. I doubt I'll settle there forever, but 5-10 years would be great. Move back here after, or keep going and move to Rome or Mexico City or someplace... just keep picking up history and languages as I travel... that lifestyle has an undeniable appeal :)

paul

[MacNeXT]

-Is the employment situation in Amsterdam really so bad? To start with, we're both willing to take entry-level jobs in just about any industry. Obviously we'll be hunting for jobs that allow for English-only people, until we pick up enough Dutch (and we will be trying to learn some before we go). Also we'll be looking for jobs that will help us get a work permit. I'm going to try to transfer there in my current company, which would solve this problem, but I doubt that will work. My partner has an English degree and I have an IT background, tho no degree (i may resume my studies there).


I don't participate in the job market (i'm studying), nor do I live in Amsterdam (I live in the north of the Netherlands). Employment situation has been bad but it's starting to get better. I think it won't be a problem to get a job, you may need a bit of patience. I frequently see job vacancies in the papers that specifically ask for people who speak english. On the other hand, dutch people generally have a good level of ESL.


-Can we get a decent, 3-room (or more) apartment anywhere between Oosterpark, Westerpark and Vondelpark for less than EUR 1.000? I'd really like to be inside the centre circle, if possible, but I have a feeling this is going to be expensive. I don't mind living in a seedy (bad) neighborhood, at least to start with.


I think it's possible. Look at www.woningnet.nl, to get an indication on rent prices (or possibly find an apartment). You'll need a dutch-english dictionary to find your way around that website.


-Are the foreign police really as bad as everyone says? Are they going to deny me residence and work permits?

-What is the current view of American expatriates? We aren't going to insert ourselves in Dutch politics, which I know is a point of contention. You guys do your thing, we just want to quietly live there. Will we be treated well or will we need to watch our backs?


I think you'll find dutch people to be nice and open minded towards foreigners. Dutch people praise themselves for being tolerant. However, there has been a lot of public and political debate lately, about immigrants that fail to integrate into the dutch culture, which has culminated last week with the assasin of a muslim critic opinion and film maker Theo van Gogh. Everyone is still a bit confused about how that could happen. This discussion however focusses at a part of the muslim population, so it's got nothing to do with you.

If you think I can help you in any other way, feel free to PM me.

[rainman::|:|]

Whew, thanks for the reply MacNeXT... good to know the job situation is recovering, your message helped allay a lot of tensions. I'm curious as to studying in NL... most students I've heard from don't work, so how do you support yourselves? If you don't mind me asking. Is room and board included as part of college? Do you guys have student loans over there like we do? Like I said, I may be interested in attending college while living there, but making the initial move is the hard part. Hopefully by the time we move in June, one of us will have found a job... that's the goal. I don't want to move both of us over there with no prospects, that sounds scary.

Thanks!
paul

[vouder17]

Cool i am also moving to Nl, but i am moving in less than a month to utrecht for now. I will be going to study, i have to see where i am going to live depending on which university takes me, gronignen, maastricht or Utrecht. Well all i know about holland is that in general it is quite easy to get around holland being english. the people are very friendly and helpful. The culture is very diverse, which seems to interest you, well i wish you all the luck. i am sure you will love it.

DjVoTeZ

[evil_santa]

You might want to talk to your Dutch Embassy about work visa, in the UK you need to get an employer to sponsor you for a work permit, they have to make a case for why they need you over a local person. So I would imagine that a potential employer would not be willing to do this for a lower paid job (especially it cost $$$ for the visa). I work for a US company in London & we have a few American work in the office, I think some of the senior people get round the work visa, as they are on a 2-3 year placement & some are still paid in the US.

found this on the internet,

Does The Candidate Qualify for a Netherlands Work Permit?


To qualify for a Netherlands work permit, the candidate should be a professional and have the skill set and qualifications necessary to fill a position that has already been unsuccessfully advertised in the Netherlands, or which is subject to recognised shortages. There is a legal requirement that the candidate is between 18 and 45 years of age, although it is unlikely that a candidate under the age of 23 would have the relevant experience or skills necessary to fill a professional position.


If the you are a non-Netherlands company supplying services to a Netherlands based client, then the candidate should usually have been employed by you outside the Netherlands for at least six months.


The salary paid to the candidate should be greater than the minimum wage level outlined in previous section about Netherlands work permits.


Candidates who are nationals of the following countries are exempted from the requirement to obtain a Netherlands residence visa (MVV), but should obtain a residence permit (VTV) if remaining in the Netherlands for longer than six months.

All EU countries

Norway

Iceland

Liechtenstein

Switzerland

Japan

New Zealand

Australia

Canada

United States



For nationals of all other countries, the candidate should apply for a residence permit (MVV) at the Royal Netherlands Embassy in their normal country of residence before a work permit application is made. The candidate is then prohibited from travelling to any Schengen state until a decision is made on the application. Once the work permit is approved, the MVV is granted by the Embassy within a period of a few days to several months, in the cases of certain countries.


NB: A Netherlands work permit is employer-specific. If a candidate has a permit to work for one company, and they want to work for another Netherlands company, this would not be possible – unless/until the new company has obtained another work permit in their name.

http://www.workpermit.com/netherlands/employer4.htm?PHPSESSID=dfa272dbfbe562d96d82a1e8e1909850


also check out

http://www.netherlands-embassy.org

[evil_santa]

Hopefully by the time we move in June, one of us will have found a job... that's the goal. I don't want to move both of us over there with no prospects, that sounds scary.

Thanks!
paul

My employer checks passports of all employees when they start work, I don't know if this is just the company i work for or is it is EU law. With out a valid work permit you will only get a visitors Visa, that will not allow you to work in any way.

The situation is much the same in the UK if we want to work in the USA. When my partner (duel nationality us/uk) was living in the USA I use to get a lot of questions from the US immigration staff, especially when i went to the USA 3 time in in a few months. Since we got married it is a lot easier.

[blackfox]

Paul, it has been a while since I covered any of this, so my information may be somewhat inaccurate. Do take with a grain of salt, or two, since some is merely anecdotal and from memory. Which might be good, since I feel you might have an uphill battle.

As for emigrating to Holland, as evil santa outlined in his post, is fairly difficult. Securing a work-visa as a non-professional and as a non-dutch speaker may prove difficult. It is also my general understanding that Americans are not regarded favorably in the judgement policy, perhaps in retribution for our own rather strict immigration/visa policy. Considering the popularity of Amsterdam with international tourists, especially Americans, you may find it difficult.

Last time I was in Amsterdam, there was an apartment shortage, I do not know if that has changed or to what degree, but that probably does not bode well for housing prices. I can recommend an excellent small hostel with private rooms available, though. (I stayed there for three months). You may be able to find a job under-the-table, but a lack of dutch may hurt you both.

As for speaking/learning Dutch, I found it to be a difficult language to pick up, especially in pronunciation. Somewhat like German, many of the sounds required do not come easy to a tongue used to English, or even French or Spanish. Perhaps you are better with languages than I am, however.

Personally, Paul, I would recommend another country if you are looking to escape the US. The UK, while having it's own plusses and minuses, might be a good bet, as it has a fairly good economy and unemployment rate (it was the best in Europe) and a fairly liberal immigration policy (at least recently). I might also consider Spain, Italy or France, based on the ease of picking up the language and the quality of culture in those countries. I do not believe they have the greatest economies, however. I might also consider Australia and New Zealand. Perhaps people on this board from those countries could fill in the blanks and/or be willing to sponser you, I don't know. One thing to consider is if you are in this for the long-haul, eventually you will be able to move freely among the EU countries for work and residence.

Oh, the Czech republic is also somewhere to look into (Prague), although the language is particularily difficult. An avenue you might consider, if you have some money to spend up front, is TOEFL (teaching English as a foreign language). It often allows you to stay in countries indefinitely and pays a wage that while not much, is passable if you are frugal and allows you to get to know where you live and find other economic opportunities, above and below the table. A friend of mine did just that in Prague for two years.

Good Luck, and keep us posted.

[MacNeXT]

Whew, thanks for the reply MacNeXT... good to know the job situation is recovering, your message helped allay a lot of tensions. I'm curious as to studying in NL... most students I've heard from don't work, so how do you support yourselves? If you don't mind me asking. Is room and board included as part of college? Do you guys have student loans over there like we do? Like I said, I may be interested in attending college while living there, but making the initial move is the hard part. Hopefully by the time we move in June, one of us will have found a job... that's the goal. I don't want to move both of us over there with no prospects, that sounds scary.

Thanks!
paul

As others have pointed out, it may be difficult to get a visum. I don't know about that. I'm going to Spain for half a year to study and there is nothing to arrange as far as getting a visum, because of the EU. Regarding the cost of study, we get help in different ways:

1 - Schools are aided by the government, the cost to study is (only) about 1500 euro for one year (no room and board). This is with some exceptions the same for all colleges and universities. Foreigners pay nothing more than the same as we do, if i'm not mistaken.
2 - Study grants (studiefinanciering) which is paid per month and depends on the income of your parents. We have the right to have the grant for as long as the length of the course, which is 4, 5 or 6 years. After that there is:
3 - A loan, either completely (after the grant stops) or on top of the grant.

I don't know if you can get a grant, check www.ibgroep.nl > international visitors. ibgroep is the organization that gives out grants.

[rainman::|:|]

Thanks for all the info guys, keep it coming. The work permit issue has been on my mind a lot lately, and clearly this is not going to be easy. I've been seeing a lot of technical-helpdesk jobs, which would be perfect except most require a second language. Perhaps RJ's english degree will lead to a professional job, because it appears that only one of us needs a work permit right away. Still not clear on that whole thing. The NL embassy forwarded me on to several generic websites instead of answering my questions, no doubt they get a lot of inquiries like this...

I've thought about other countries, NZ and UK and the like... but i'm really sold on the idea of full gay rights, the history/art/culture, and the drug laws. The last one is a bit silly perhaps, but I don't want to be at odds with the police anymore. Moving to Amsterdam has been a dream for me since i was a kid. If it's going to be impossible, so be it... but I'll try everything i can...

:)
paul

[blackfox]

Paul, in reference to your desire to reside in a Country that affords it's residents more in the way of gay-rights and freedoms (including those pertaining to drug usage/possession), it is important to remember that almost all Western countries are more liberal in this regard than the US.
Regarding Drug Laws, although the Dutch are the most widely-recognized country for Liberal interpretation/enforcement of drug laws, they are by no means alone. Australia, Austria, Greece, Ireland and the UK all have mechanisms in place that merely issue tickets, warnings or treatment options to drug offenders, particularily marijuana (which I assume is most relevant).
In addition, many countries while having harsh drug laws on the books, actually have de facto decriminaliztion to free up the court system, among other reasons. These include: Belgium, Denmark, Switzerland and Germany, with the Swiss perhaps moving more toward an even more permissive policy.
There are also several countries which have decriminalized marijuana. These include: Italy, Spain and Portugal (and Canada).

As for Gay Rights, again, many countries are much more progressive than the US. New Zealand and Denmark come close, if not arrive at, de facto full rights for homosexuals w/in their borders, the latter particularily so. In addition, Spain and the Czech Republic (probably others) allow most of the rights associated with civil unions, including property/inheritance rights and hospital visitation. France and Portugal are somewhat more restrictive, but still allow more rights than available in the US. I was unable to find any relevant data about the UK.

I would keep this in mind, as you look at options. The Dutch do have a fine history/Culture as does much of Europe, so I feel you would likely be happy anywhere on the continent.

I would caution, however, as a new member of any of these countries, not to push your luck on the above issues, as they are primarily afforded to Citizens and long-term residents. This, of course, also applies to the Netherlands.

BTW, I might also suggest looking into Costa Rica, if you like Spanish and enjoy that kind of country. Their laws are also pretty Liberal in the areas that interest you and they have wonderful weather and people, depending on your preferences.

FWIW.

[Thomas Veil]

Paul, I don't have any information to offer, only congratulations on your decision. I'm sure you and your partner can find the right country that would accommodate you better than the U.S.

I myself am considering moving out of the U.S., but at this point it's only in the contemplation stage. Jobs in my field are always hard to find, and in foreign countries it will probably be worse. I see that as my main obstacle.

[Blue Velvet]

but i'm really sold on the idea of full gay rights, the history/art/culture, and the drug laws.
:)
paul

I was wondering when someone was going to mention the jazz cigarettes...

These are all great reasons to live in Holland. I lived there for 5 years but in Eindhoven...

As with all emigration, a little language goes a long way. Bit like the hash...
:)

[evil_santa]

Perhaps RJ's english degree will lead to a professional job, because it appears that only one of us needs a work permit right away.

Do you speak Dutch? It will be easier for both of you to get jobs if you have fairly good grasp of the Dutch language.
One a previous employer (an Italian company in London) decided it would be a good idea (cheap) to send over some Italians who didn't speak english & did not feel they needed to learn English. They were impossible to work with as we could not communicate with them, and got sent back to Italy quite quickly!

You might need something like this...
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000899M9.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[rainman::|:|]

hey, thanks evilsanta :) that looks like a very interesting program, will have to pick it up. It looks like becoming at least passably familiar with Dutch is my best option in getting a job... Thanks blackfox, you point out some great alternatives that I hadn't thought of. It's nice to know there are other places to go if this doesn't work out... less stressful.

Just about every time i start a thread (which is rare), i get a reminder of what a great, diverse group we have at MR. The info and kind words you're all giving are much appreciated :)

paul

[Ugg]

A couple of forums that you may be interested in:
expatica.com
toytownmunich.com

the Expatica forums are filled with flame wars (mostly Americans) but the site has a lot of very good information about living abroad.

toytownmunich although based in munich is a board for english speakers in munich and many of the members are brits who've lived and worked in different countries throughout the world. Most of them are in IT and I think you'd find a lot of good information relating to EU laws there. Many of them seem to work in companies/offices where English is the language of choice. Speaking dutch is going to get you a job faster than not speaking it but I don't think it is absolutely essential. I'm sure there must be similar forums in The Netherlands as well.

Also, regarding language tapes, you can buy this (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=7385510&selectedItemId=7385510) at the iTMS. Check out shoutcast for Dutch radio stations, talk shows are a great way to learn a language.

Although your heart is set on The Netherlands, I would cast your net as far as possible. With the expansion of the EU, Brussels is booming. Check out northern Germany, France and Denmark as well.

With the current political climate, being an American could well be a liability and your reasons for moving abroad may well be suspect. If at all possible, I would recomment that you spend a week or so in The Netherlands before you move there so you can get a better idea of what people are looking for. There are major differences between US and northern European styles of management, working habits, etc. I've heard a lot of people complain about the shock of having to change their work habits to suit their new place of employment.

[pseudobrit]

Dutch is an awesome sounding language.

That said, I think you may want to take a good look North at Canada. Even in Saskatchewan a court recently ruled that gay marriage must be allowed.

That means unless you move to Alberta, the NW Territories or Nunavut, you'd have your civil rights.

I'm going to work for the Democratic Senate challenger from my home state in 2006. Really work, like 20+ hours/week. If my state fails to reject hate-monger Santorum and/or the Senate doesn't swing away from this single-party dictatorship we've got brewing, I'm heading out. I'm paying off my debts this year. Next year I'll be applying for Canadian citizenship, so that if our country doesn't make a turn for the better, I'm able to quickly leave for colder (but warmer) environs as my application should be processed about the same time.

[aricher]

Damn - Ugg beat me to the expatica.com site - very good info on exactly what you need to get over there - my wife and I have been toying with the idea for a few years now. As long as one member of the couple is employed full-time the other can also receive benefits. Finding work may be harder than you think - depending on what you want to do.

I have a friend that lives in Haarlem and he said that being an American might be of benefit because of the upswing of the EU. he said everyone is trying to figure out how to do business the American way. he also said it's very sad because unline several years ago Amsterdam, Haarlem, etc. now are becoming yuppie havens with Starbucks and Gaps everywhere - ah, follow the leader is a double edged sword sometimes.

The Netherlands is supposedly the easiest place to get EU citizenship, meaning that you can then live and work anywhere in the EU. You need to live in the Netherlands for 5 consecutive years, be fluent in Dutch and take a citizenship test.

Good luck to you - any place in Europe is better than Des Moines.

[MacNeXT]

Paul,

Earlier in this thread I told you I think it would be possible to get an apartment for <1000 euros. I think I should make a note about this. Today I saw a documentary about shortage of houses and apartments in Amsterdam and how people make use of that to rip off people. Especially foreigners. Be careful! If you pursue your plans, be sure to deal with bonafide people and preferably larger organizations, when you're getting an apartment.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Paul, it has been a while since I covered any of this, so my information may be somewhat inaccurate. Do take with a grain of salt, or two, since some is merely anecdotal and from memory. Which might be good, since I feel you might have an uphill battle.

As for emigrating to Holland, as evil santa outlined in his post, is fairly difficult. Securing a work-visa as a non-professional and as a non-dutch speaker may prove difficult. It is also my general understanding that Americans are not regarded favorably in the judgement policy, perhaps in retribution for our own rather strict immigration/visa policy. Considering the popularity of Amsterdam with international tourists, especially Americans, you may find it difficult.

Last time I was in Amsterdam, there was an apartment shortage, I do not know if that has changed or to what degree, but that probably does not bode well for housing prices. I can recommend an excellent small hostel with private rooms available, though. (I stayed there for three months). You may be able to find a job under-the-table, but a lack of dutch may hurt you both.

As for speaking/learning Dutch, I found it to be a difficult language to pick up, especially in pronunciation. Somewhat like German, many of the sounds required do not come easy to a tongue used to English, or even French or Spanish. Perhaps you are better with languages than I am, however.

Personally, Paul, I would recommend another country if you are looking to escape the US. The UK, while having it's own plusses and minuses, might be a good bet, as it has a fairly good economy and unemployment rate (it was the best in Europe) and a fairly liberal immigration policy (at least recently). I might also consider Spain, Italy or France, based on the ease of picking up the language and the quality of culture in those countries. I do not believe they have the greatest economies, however. I might also consider Australia and New Zealand. Perhaps people on this board from those countries could fill in the blanks and/or be willing to sponser you, I don't know. One thing to consider is if you are in this for the long-haul, eventually you will be able to move freely among the EU countries for work and residence.

Oh, the Czech republic is also somewhere to look into (Prague), although the language is particularily difficult. An avenue you might consider, if you have some money to spend up front, is TOEFL (teaching English as a foreign language). It often allows you to stay in countries indefinitely and pays a wage that while not much, is passable if you are frugal and allows you to get to know where you live and find other economic opportunities, above and below the table. A friend of mine did just that in Prague for two years.

Good Luck, and keep us posted.

blackfox, may be you could provide some more help. My lover and I (I am 46 and he is 42) thought of leaving the US. Australia was a thought, but my age limits the jobs I can get there. He does speak French quite fluently (he taught French at both child and adult level in a community school setting). He has a degree from College, I from the school of hard knocks (meaning I am a retail manager and now an advertising manager - DTP). I also have skills as a photorapher. We also have a house to sell here in the states, but would not rather sell till we had a new country that we could move to.

I wish I could move the hands of time back 10 to 20 years ago and do what Paul is wanting to do. It would be a little easier I think.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Dutch is an awesome sounding language.

That said, I think you may want to take a good look North at Canada. Even in Saskatchewan a court recently ruled that gay marriage must be allowed.

That means unless you move to Alberta, the NW Territories or Nunavut, you'd have your civil rights.

I'm going to work for the Democratic Senate challenger from my home state in 2006. Really work, like 20+ hours/week. If my state fails to reject hate-monger Santorum and/or the Senate doesn't swing away from this single-party dictatorship we've got brewing, I'm heading out. I'm paying off my debts this year. Next year I'll be applying for Canadian citizenship, so that if our country doesn't make a turn for the better, I'm able to quickly leave for colder (but warmer) environs as my application should be processed about the same time.

What is surprising is that Paul and I are not alone. Teddy mentioned the possibility to some co-workers of his, and they were thinking of moving their "hetro-families" to Canada. IT seems that there are many that are not happy with the direction of the country over not just the next four years, but the next twenty. When 20% of the nation says that "morals" are the reason that they voted 80% towards Bush, there seems to be a disconnect between the nation.

[zimv20]

paul, congrats on your decision. funny how you, p'brit, chip, b'fox and i are all having similar thoughts.

i don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. except that i got along pretty well in NL w/ english and broken german. lots of english spoken there.

keep us up to date. i hope this works out for you.

[Hoef]

Hey there, I am a Dutch native and actually hired a US guy when I was at a large blue computer company. It wasn't easy but I must admit a lot easier than getting hired myself here in the states. Eventhough he got hired he had to show up at the police office every month or so for quite a while (let me see if I can dig up his contact info for you). Further, I tend to agree with what Macnext mentioned before.

The town I am from, The Hague, Den Haag, 's-Gravenhage or La Haye (depending where you from) it swamped with internationals and especially Americans.

With some patience it should be possible to get hired and get a work visa.


Ps... Attending college/university is cheap compared to US

[iJon]

Hey there, I am a Dutch native and actually hired a US guy when I was at a large blue computer company. It wasn't easy but I must admit a lot easier than getting hired myself here in the states. Eventhough he got hired he had to show up at the police office every month or so for quite a while (let me see if I can dig up his contact info for you). Further, I tend to agree with what Macnext mentioned before.

The town I am from, The Hague, Den Haag, 's-Gravenhage or La Haye (depending where you from) it swamped with internationals and especially Americans.

With some patience it should be possible to get hired and get a work visa.


Ps... Attending college/university is cheap compared to US
That's pretty interesting. When I was in Europe many of my tour guides had studied in the states and said it was a piece of cake. Are most the Euro universities harder or does it vary quite equally.

jon

[Chip NoVaMac]

paul, congrats on your decision. funny how you, p'brit, chip, b'fox and i are all having similar thoughts.

i don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. except that i got along pretty well in NL w/ english and broken german. lots of english spoken there.

keep us up to date. i hope this works out for you.

I think there are a great number of us that are looking at options outside of the US. Contrary to some opinion it is not that Kerry lost. It is more of the make up of the nation for the next 20+ years.

Though given the Justices that have been put on SOCTUS since Reagan, they have been a very mixed bag IMO. In some cases they have lived up to the "conservative" appointment. In many others they have been quite "liberal".

I wish Paul and his lover the best of luck.

For my lover, Teddy, he does have "family" in Nova Scotia. For my status, it it is less clear in this situation. And with is strength in the French language, he has a great opportunity. Along with is background in accounting. But from the reading I have done, I am not a "skilled" worker. And without the US recognizing our "union", it is hard for me to immigrate as a "spouse". There is also the aspect that we are both over 40 years old.

The shame of it is that we are not the "norm" among the "straight" friends we have. The longest any one "marriage" lasted was 15 years so far on the average. With most in the 5 to 8 year range.

For myself it is hard to even think of leaving the US. I am a product of the 60's. And a military father. A few years ago I was working for a government contractor. I finished my meetings at the point of the evening tattoo. We were leaving the building at the first bugle blow. I turned towards the bugle, and placed my hand over my heart. My hosts were surprised by my by actions. They were surprised that "civilians" knew the meaning of the evening tattoo.

To this day, I do not allow anyone to speak during the National Anthem that is being played before a TV game (or during the Olympics). Nor do I allow a flag to be flown without it being lit 24 hours a day, without comment from me.

Even post 9-11, when people dotted their lawns with American flags, I would pick up those that fell on the ground, and brought them to the VFV for proper disposal.

My grandparents came over during the early 1900's. They made their life here. They taught my parents how to deal with the Great Depression. maybe it was that they were given the opportunity to "succeed"; they looked upon the 40's, 50's and 60's as a right that was long over due to "others".

They came from the Slovak region. Their countries do not mean anything today. But the values of being whom they were hold true today as they did then.

Maybe it is my bias, but I wish it were as easy for Paul and his lover, or me and my lover to immigrate to many other countries. I can not speak for Paul, but my impression is one of the an easy nature of those that want work and a better life in the US verses many other nations.

There are many of us that are looking for a "different" way of life than what the US promises for the future. Whether we find it is a different matter. For some of us, this is our "final" choice. There is no turning back because of our age.

We are not talking about American "retirees" that moved to Mexico for lower retirement costs. We are talking about people of all ages that can contribute, even in the short term (15+ years) to what ever country that will take us.

[stubeeef]

While I am mostly happy in the US I understand to seek a more comfortable setting. While in the Navy and stationed on Guam, I tried to get my wife to repatriate to NZ or Australia. It seems the focus on this thread has been mostly to European nations, If you have not been to some other parts of the world like asia you're missing out. Singapore and HK are beyond belief, japan and thailand are beautiful and japan is always in need of english speakers (parts of the country give new meaning to expensive).

There are wonderful, secluded and thriving island nations from HI to Jakarta and deserve a look. Just a thought. While I have spent some time in S America, not sure if it meets the need, but Buenas Aires is fabulous too!

Good luck and be of good cheer.

[zimv20]

i just returned from japan, visiting a friend who moved there 2 years ago to teach english. she's got a nice little life set up for herself in hiroshima. and japan doesn't have to be expensive, as she showed me.

i could live there. i like HK as well (i studied cantonese for a while a few years ago) and could probably live there. london's on my list, and i speak some german, too, so maybe berlin?

lots of options for living, it's the getting let in legally that gets tricky. and i'm semi-retired, so the last thing i feel like doing is going back to full time work. i'm in an odd spot. and there's always getting married...

[mikeylebeau]

Hi Paul,

I don't normally post here, just happened to notice this thread on the sidebar of the main site, and thought I'd just drop a line. I lived in Amsterdam for my junior year of high school (I'm from the SF Bay Area). I picked up Dutch while I was there (not quite as hard when you're 15 ;)) and have a great fondness for Holland. I'm certain I'll end up there again in the future.

If you have any questions you think I'd be able to answer, feel free to shoot me a PM or whatever.

Good luck in your decision! :)

-mike

[Chip NoVaMac]

Hi Paul,

I don't normally post here, just happened to notice this thread on the sidebar of the main site, and thought I'd just drop a line. I lived in Amsterdam for my junior year of high school (I'm from the SF Bay Area). I picked up Dutch while I was there (not quite as hard when you're 15 ;)) and have a great fondness for Holland. I'm certain I'll end up there again in the future.

If you have any questions you think I'd be able to answer, feel free to shoot me a PM or whatever.

Good luck in your decision! :)

-mike

What do you think of the possibilities of two 40+ year olds making it there?

[Ugg]

Another option for finding work abroad is starting your own business. Admittedly, not knowing the language could be a big problem but it could be a long term goal.

I'm also over 40 so not in the most desirable immigrant category nor do I have any IT skills, etc. However, I do speak German and with the recent changes in German immigration law and the overhaul of the small business rules and regulations, I should have no problems in starting my own business. It will require a major commitment on my part but it's a part of my long term goals. The recent election has made it more urgent but is not my primary reason for doing this. I hope to be up and running within the next 18 months.

Once again I can't stress enough that in order for this to work for you and your partner, Paul, you need to have either skills that will immediately give you a job there, or to have your contacts in order before you get there. It can be exhausting dealing with the daily bs of life in a foreign country much less finding and starting a new job. And, Amsterdam ain't cheap.

[Hoef]

That's pretty interesting. When I was in Europe many of my tour guides had studied in the states and said it was a piece of cake. Are most the Euro universities harder or does it vary quite equally.

jon

Maybe not the focus of the thread but I studied engineering in the Netherlands and business in the States. So kind of oranges and peaches but I believe studing in NL was harder (academic rigour) whereas in the US is it more of a problem getting into a University (test scores, previous experience, president of the marching band etc..) rather than completing the study itself (Ivy League though). Also in NL you don't really have major/minor system .... very focussed.

[Thomas Veil]

Contrary to some opinion it is not that Kerry lost. It is more of the make up of the nation for the next 20+ years.
Pretty much spot-on. Right now there's a lot of recrimination about how Kerry ran his campaign, and while there's some truth to it, I think the main problem is that 51% of the American people have kind of gone off the deep end. And therein lies the desire by some to leave the country, because it seems the only way to win an election is to almost become them.


To this day, I do not allow anyone to speak during the National Anthem that is being played before a TV game (or during the Olympics). Nor do I allow a flag to be flown without it being lit 24 hours a day, without comment from me....
You know, except for the military part, our backgrounds are quite similar...except that I have, for the first time in my life, lost my patriotism. As of Nov. 3rd, I no longer feel that this is my America. My America doesn't charge around the world like a retarded, drunken Hulk on a 'roid rage. The fact that the people put their imprimatur on this behavior is what sealed the deal for me. My patriotic spirit is dead. I just don't believe in this country anymore.

Sorry. :(

[Chip NoVaMac]

Pretty much spot-on. Right now there's a lot of recrimination about how Kerry ran his campaign, and while there's some truth to it, I think the main problem is that 51% of the American people have kind of gone off the deep end. And therein lies the desire by some to leave the country, because it seems the only way to win an election is to almost become them.

I think your 51% figure is a bit harsh. What tipped the scales in Bush's favor was 20% of the voters that felt "morals" was the issue of the election, and 80% of those voted for Bush.

To me, and maybe Paul this means that this nation is headed towards a nation like the State of Israel, one based on religious principles rather than a strict understanding of the Constitution.

The Constitution is being used by those that want to see what they want. I see freedom to enjoy all laws given to "married" couples to my lover and I. But I am told that the Constitution does not say that. Yet the same people look at the Constitution as allowing for free ownership of weapons. While I look at it and see that the "militia" is the equal to our National Guard.

How do we reconcile our differences?

You know, except for the military part, our backgrounds are quite similar...except that I have, for the first time in my life, lost my patriotism. As of Nov. 3rd, I no longer feel that this is my America. My America doesn't charge around the world like a retarded, drunken Hulk on a 'roid rage. The fact that the people put their imprimatur on this behavior is what sealed the deal for me. My patriotic spirit is dead. I just don't believe in this country anymore.

Sorry. :(

For some of us it is a harder choice. I would love to hear from Paul on his view on this. For me and my lover, we are in the "twilight" years. Life should be getting easier for us, not more difficult IMO.

I am old enough to still remember the way people felt about equal rights for African-Americans. They weren't "human". That God did not allow for the "mixing" of races. Some went as far as saying the Bible condoned owning slaves, so what is wrong?

I understand where you are coming from. It is harder for me to "love" my country. We allow dictators to ride herd in other parts of the world, since it benefits us as a nation.

[matthew24]

Paul,

I am dutch and have been living on the edge of the city since 1980.
It does have its historic beauty, but to be honest I wouldn't move there unless you could find a very, very good job, should be possible. Amsterdam has a very dark spiritual side that's why I prefere to live outside the centre.

In my opinion you will be taken a big risk.

[pseudobrit]

I know people point out that everyone else in the world save the Cayman Islanders pay higher taxes and that's why it's best to stay in the US. But they also get more in return for their taxes.

If how much of your paycheck is take-home is how you judge your happiness, you need to rethink your life.

paul, congrats on your decision. funny how you, p'brit, chip, b'fox and i are all having similar thoughts.

For me, it's not completely a political decision (I'm no longer just having thoughts; I've decided).

The most important thing in life is your family. For me, it always comes way before work, God, country and self.

I'm at the age where I'll likely be settling down and having a kids in the next decade.

I want to raise a family in a nation where the debt won't come to haunt them.
I want to raise a family in a nation that isn't hated and targeted by the world for its actions and arrogance.
I want to raise a family in a nation where politicians don't provide tax incentives for companies that lay off workers and send the jobs overseas.
I want to raise a family in a nation where violent criminals aren't released after serving half a decade of prison because the prison system needs to house millions of small-time nonviolent drug offenders.
I want to raise a family where my children can recieve a higher education that's affordable.
And let's face it: getting paid in US dollars means you're earning less and less every paycheck, making it that much harder to afford children.

I fancy the idea of living in a Province (Quebec) that operates almost independently from the federal government, that cherishes and defends its history, language and culture.

Canada has its problems, surely. But it has a lot going for it, and an even brighter future.

Plus there's tons of hockey.

[stubeeef]

I think this thread needs to be moved to the political forum or move back to the subject.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I think this thread needs to be moved to the political forum or move back to the subject.

Sorry, it is hard not be be "political" about the issue. And I apologize to Paul for taking this down other paths.

But given the world community here, it is nice to have other opinions and insights in the relocation issue. Some of the comments along those lines would have been lost by placing this in the Political forum.

I am not sure that anyone would be happy with a multitude of threads listing each country that some are looking at moving to.

I and many others may be wrong in looking at threads here as being conversations. Particularly when it deals with a subject like this. For Paul and his lover, the choice is not an easy one. Nor is it for any of the others like myself to consider.

Some of us may have misunderstood the reasons behind Paul's post. But the thread has shown how difficult it can be to move to another country. Some of the comments would be lost if moved the political forum.

From Paul's previous posts on MR, I assume that he would have put this in the Political Forum, if he thought in his heart that it would have gone that direction. So to you and Paul, again I apologize. For it is hard not to bring "politics" into the discussion when talking about moving from a country that you were raised in.

To the mods, please don't move this thread.

[rainman::|:|]

Whew, lots of info everywhere, you guys are great. I appreciate hearing from all of the NL crowd, even the ones that don't paint a very uplifting picture... as i said, i intend to be realistic about this, and need to know all the "cons", as i already know the "pros". Chip, I too have heard that it is easier to immigrate when young, which is unfortunate for many. I wish you and your lover success in finding your corner of the world. If we wind up in the same place, we'll all have to get together :)

With regards to politics. I knew this thread would get political, I wanted to avoid it getting moved to the political forum because it gets better exposure on the sidebar. But if it gets moved, so be it, I've gotten responses now (yay!). Chip and others are very much on track... It really isn't that Kerry lost, it's that the nation is getting *more* conservative... okay, in my opinion, liberals should be seen (by conservatives) as a "necessary evil"... let me explain. Fiscally i'm conservative, as is just about everyone on some level I suspect... who wants to give up their money? But liberals know that social inequality exists, and they're willing to fight that with tax money. I support that fully. It seems like, at least for the first couple of hundred years, America was moving towards being a truly free nation, one step at a time (minority rights, women's sufferage, etc) and when that finally happened, there just wouldn't be a need for things like affirmative action, etc and social liberalism. Then a fiscally conservative mood could prevail without the socially conservative tinge. But it seems like the tide is turning too soon-- gay and transgender rights haven't been accomplished yet, but the country is closing the book on new freedoms. In fact, it's erasing parts of it... Apparently freedom for right-wing Christians means oppression for everyone else. I cannot live in a place that holds one religion as the "true" religion, laws based on biblical principals. When that was decreasing, it was acceptable. But it's increasing again. The parallels given above to Israel may be radical to some, but make no mistake: we are now on that path. I will not let my tax dollars go to a government that withholds rights from it's people intentionally. That's what made me realize it was time to leave.

My activist friends (i used to be a lot more activist than i am now) are encouraging me to stay and fight... but I am totally unconvinced that such a fight can be won. The majority has spoken, and they want us ruled by religion rather than science. That's fine for them, I suppose. Again, I want out.

It is really overwhelming to see how many people are considering expatriating... not just on this forum, but across the country. Apparently many countries and immigration lawyers are being inundated by people looking into the option. The polarization here is not liberal vs. conservative, it's science vs. religion, and the scientific thinkers are, perhaps, beginning an exodus.

Thanks to the people on this thread, I've widened my scope to include several other countries... Amsterdam is still my preference, but there are other options. Canada is the most obvious choice, of course; however I suffer from seasonal affective disorder, and I'd really like to move somewhere less cold. I know the Netherlands doesn't see any more sunshine than we do here, but their winters seem much milder. Rain I can deal with... -20f temperatures, I can't.

Thanks again everyone for your continued discussion. Learning a lot.

paul

[Chip NoVaMac]

Whew, lots of info everywhere, you guys are great. I appreciate hearing from all of the NL crowd, even the ones that don't paint a very uplifting picture... as i said, i intend to be realistic about this, and need to know all the "cons", as i already know the "pros". Chip, I too have heard that it is easier to immigrate when young, which is unfortunate for many. I wish you and your lover success in finding your corner of the world. If we wind up in the same place, we'll all have to get together :)

With regards to politics. I knew this thread would get political, I wanted to avoid it getting moved to the political forum because it gets better exposure on the sidebar. But if it gets moved, so be it, I've gotten responses now (yay!). Chip and others are very much on track... It really isn't that Kerry lost, it's that the nation is getting *more* conservative... okay, in my opinion, liberals should be seen (by conservatives) as a "necessary evil"... let me explain. Fiscally i'm conservative, as is just about everyone on some level I suspect... who wants to give up their money? But liberals know that social inequality exists, and they're willing to fight that with tax money. I support that fully. It seems like, at least for the first couple of hundred years, America was moving towards being a truly free nation, one step at a time (minority rights, women's sufferage, etc) and when that finally happened, there just wouldn't be a need for things like affirmative action, etc and social liberalism. Then a fiscally conservative mood could prevail without the socially conservative tinge. But it seems like the tide is turning too soon-- gay and transgender rights haven't been accomplished yet, but the country is closing the book on new freedoms. In fact, it's erasing parts of it... Apparently freedom for right-wing Christians means oppression for everyone else. I cannot live in a place that holds one religion as the "true" religion, laws based on biblical principals. When that was decreasing, it was acceptable. But it's increasing again. The parallels given above to Israel may be radical to some, but make no mistake: we are now on that path. I will not let my tax dollars go to a government that withholds rights from it's people intentionally. That's what made me realize it was time to leave.

My activist friends (i used to be a lot more activist than i am now) are encouraging me to stay and fight... but I am totally unconvinced that such a fight can be won. The majority has spoken, and they want us ruled by religion rather than science. That's fine for them, I suppose. Again, I want out.

It is really overwhelming to see how many people are considering expatriating... not just on this forum, but across the country. Apparently many countries and immigration lawyers are being inundated by people looking into the option. The polarization here is not liberal vs. conservative, it's science vs. religion, and the scientific thinkers are, perhaps, beginning an exodus.

Thanks to the people on this thread, I've widened my scope to include several other countries... Amsterdam is still my preference, but there are other options. Canada is the most obvious choice, of course; however I suffer from seasonal affective disorder, and I'd really like to move somewhere less cold. I know the Netherlands doesn't see any more sunshine than we do here, but their winters seem much milder. Rain I can deal with... -20f temperatures, I can't.

Thanks again everyone for your continued discussion. Learning a lot.

paul

Paul, thanks for the inside thoughts. I too have friends that re saying that my lover and I should stay. But at 40+ years old, we don't have that much time to wait for a "better" society. I am not sure how old you are, but I assume that it is under 25. 20+ years may not be that long for you. At 25 i too would have considered moving out of the US.

[cslewis]

it's that the nation is getting *more* conservative... paul

I noticed that also. When I flip on the TV and see that at least 20 states want to teach creationism in schools instead of darwinism i feel as though we are taking a step back. That's just one example...

On a happier note... I would definitely reccomend moving to Prague. Czech isn't that difficult, but that may be just because I have tons of Czech relatives. I don't know. I visited there two years ago. Prague is safer than most western cities, is relatively inexpensive, and German is understood my most Praguers. Keep it in mind.

[stubeeef]

OK, hate crime is a crime.
I am for civil unions but not marriage, sorry it is my opinion.
Creationism is believed by a large number of people, it should be at least mentioned, not replaced as the only THEORY.
Why can't abstonance be mentioned as the only 100% (since mary) effective birthcontrol?
Some people want to move to other countries, like I did, that have lower violent crime rates, and higher value of education.
I recognize your delima and need for finding something more comfortable, just be wise, and choose carefully.
Good luck and I hope you find sanctuary.

[rainman::|:|]

Religion is the only reason, like it or not, that you would support civil unions but not marriage for gay people. Well, I guess you could be cruel, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. If it's not religion, it's religious indoctrination.

The only reason evolution is a "theory" instead of a "law" is that we can't duplicate it, which is necessary to Scientific Method. But the scientific evidence clearly supports evolution. No scientific evidence supports creationism. The bible is the only thing that does that. Schools are for teaching facts as we know them... if they're going to teach creationism, the only way I'd support it is in a "mythology" class. But I will say, despite my dependence on science, I'm not without a spiritual side... taoism. And if I had kids, I'd want to teach them spirituality myself... not have public schools do it. Unless it was from an objective, historical sense.

Abstinence is a method of STD and birth control, true. But abstinence-only education is dangerous, because the facts show us that abstinence is ignored by most of the population. So do we continue to appease a religion (catholicism), or do we do what science tells us... do whatever's necessary to prevent the spread of STDs and unplanned pregnancy. That includes condom instruction and distribution, birth-control medications, diaphrams, sponges, IUD's, vasectomies, etc etc. To say that we cannot teach young people (and even adults, as Bush has said) these methods, because we risk offending Catholics, is sheer folly.

As I said, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I won't live in a country that subsidizes it unless you've got science on your side. It's the only common denominator, and the only way to true religious freedom.

paul

[stubeeef]

Thankyou for defining me, I'm sure that you are all knowing.

Is the reason Kerry and Edwards felt that way because of their deep evangalical beliefs?

Why not marrage for the wacks in utah, wanting 36 wives, or for 1st cousins or human and animal? Then again since we are evolved from microbal pond-scum marrying the family dog and daughter is really with in the family is it not? Where is the line? Do we need or want one?

[rainman::|:|]

Thankyou for defining me, I'm sure that you are all knowing.

Is the reason Kerry and Edwards felt that way because of their deep evangalical beliefs?

Why not marrage for the wacks in utah, wanting 36 wives, or for 1st cousins or human and animal? Then again since we are evolved from microbal pond-scum marrying the family dog and daughter is really with in the family is it not? Where is the line? Do we need or want one?

When did I say kerry/edwards were doing it for religion? When did I say this was because Kerry lost? In fact, I specifically denied that, read the whole thread. And why would I be upset that they're not doing it for religion, when my whole argument has been for scientific reasoning?

Polygamy is a religious belief, and I really don't think the government has any business in the marriage business period. I mean, even if they can't do it legally, those determined to be polygamists will do so anyway. And society has yet to crumble, after thousands of years of the practice. My only personal argument against it is that it tends to objectify women as property.

Science clearly shows that inter-species relations aren't supposed to happen.

Science also shows that marriage between first-cousins is not a real problem, in the grand scheme of things. In fact, in many modern societies, it's not only allowed, but encouraged. Again, society has yet to crumble. And again, preventing marriage will do nothing to prevent sex between first cousins, even if it were provably destructive.

You're not giving anything to back up your arguments, you're just baiting the thread. And I'm stupid enough to keep replying. How about you just be happy that two more queers are leaving the country, and let this thread alone-- so we can do it faster.

paul

[stubeeef]

Religion is the only reason, like it or not, that you would support civil unions but not marriage for gay people.

That is why I mention kerry/edwards, they are your words, remember.

Even the aboriginals had strict rules on innermarriage.

As far as society crumbling, I see it everyday.

Science clearly shows that inter-species relations aren't supposed to happen.

Please expound.

I don't care that your gay, I don't care if you have a 3 day ceremony to show your love for each other, I don't care if you believe me or not.

I tried to give good advice on locations in this thread, then it neatly became the 5000th thread on the political ramifications of your decision. If you are going to expound your feelings to the world via the internet you will get both the agreeable and the disagreeable.

BTW who said abstinance only? or creationism only? why are these subjects so putrid to you? why not teach them along side the other views?

PS have a happy winter solstice. :)

[rainman::|:|]

Once again, you either refuse or are unable to back your arguments with facts, of any sort. I'm done with you.

Back to the topic, before we were rudely interrupted. Anyone care to give first-hand climate data on the countries mentioned? It sounds like the Dutch consider it to be *very* cold when it's around 0-2 degrees celsius. Can anyone confirm this? What are winters like there, and in any of the other countries mentioned? Does snow stay on the ground, does the ground freeze, etc. And how hot are summers?

paul

[stubeeef]

Back to the topicl

I think this thread needs to be moved to the political forum or move back to the subject.

[mikeylebeau]

Hey Paul,

Yeah, that's roughly accurate I'd say. Maybe a little colder. I think the whole time I was there the very coldest it got was like -5, maybe almost -10, but I don't think so. I have no reference as to what kind of winter that was either, though. It did snow a little bit, but not much and didn't stick. It never bothered me a bit.

-mike

[iJon]

Once again, you either refuse or are unable to back your arguments with facts, of any sort. I'm done with you.

Back to the topic, before we were rudely interrupted. Anyone care to give first-hand climate data on the countries mentioned? It sounds like the Dutch consider it to be *very* cold when it's around 0-2 degrees celsius. Can anyone confirm this? What are winters like there, and in any of the other countries mentioned? Does snow stay on the ground, does the ground freeze, etc. And how hot are summers?

paul
If you go to Wunderground.com I believe you can look at average temperatures from past years.

jon

[zimv20]

It sounds like the Dutch consider it to be *very* cold when it's around 0-2 degrees celsius.
it's big news when the canals freeze over, and it seems to not happen that often. compared to chicago winters, i believe NL winters to be quite mild.

[pseudobrit]

On a happier note... I would definitely reccomend moving to Prague. Czech isn't that difficult, but that may be just because I have tons of Czech relatives. I don't know. I visited there two years ago. Prague is safer than most western cities, is relatively inexpensive, and German is understood my most Praguers. Keep it in mind.

And there's tons of hockey. ;)

BTW, everyone can just ignore stubeef, he's on my ignore list because of his tendency to troll around the political forums (especially when he first arrived) and now you might know why. Note that after suggesting the thread get back on topic or be moved, he did everything he could to move the thread further off topic. And then he compared homosexuality to polygamy and bestiality.

Anywho, the best reason I can see for leaving the country is that it's a collapsing empire taking its last violent breaths before Gotterdammerung. Soon the USA will join Rome & Britain in the history books.

[gekko513]

Anywho, the best reason I can see for leaving the country is that it's a collapsing empire taking its last violent breaths before Gotterdammerung. Soon the USA will join Rome & Britain in the history books.
I hope the demise will be swift and painless and not long and painful suffering for the innocent lefties in the U.S. If not only because I would love it to happen within my lifetime. Go China, Japan and EU! :p

[pseudobrit]

Go China, Japan and EU! :p

You forgot Poland.

Er... Canada. Which'll be a little warmer thanks to the global warming that's based on junk science.

[MacsRgr8]

it's big news when the canals freeze over, and it seems to not happen that often. compared to chicago winters, i believe NL winters to be quite mild.

Our climate is so mild, that summer and winter can be quite similar!

Well... not that mild, but to give you guys some idea:

Winter.
Usually mild frost during the night, temperatures slightly above zero during the day. One or two weeks of frost during the daytime aswell is common.
It rains more often than it snows. I think I have read somewhere that there is a 10% percent chance of a "white Christmas".

Spring.
Temperatures rising from just around 10 degrees in March to about 20 in June during the daytime. Mostly cloudy, but we do have the occasional beautiful summer-like day in May or June.

Summer.
Frankly we don't really have one. :D Except for last year... we had an unusually hot and sunny summer..... meaning we will have to wait another 10 years before we get another one. Around 80% of the Dutch flea to South of France or Spain to get some sunshine. Many insure their holidays for sunshine!!!! (imagine... :rolleyes: )

Autumn (Fall.. whatever)
Bugger. Damn weather. Temps falling from 20 degrees back to 5 orso. A lot of wind, lots of rain.... This is what we Dutch call "guur" (pronounce: (ya know, the Dutch "G") "ggggewrrr") weather. (There! you learnt your first Dutch word! :) )

BTW, it is a gr8 pleasure hearing people wanting to come to Holland! Yes, it is a fun country, where people hardly ever make a big deal out of anything! That's a part of our national personality which I am proud of. Amsterdam is definitely a city where you'll have a lot of fun.
Employment....? Well the economy is finally starting to grow more rapidly again. It's always hard to tell if someone from abroad could find a job easily here.
One thing though: English is everyone's second language here, so no problem for you there.

And... forget the past negative news from Holland. I sincerely think (and hope) that these were just some mad acts from a small number of mad people, which will be forgotten by the time you'll be arriving next June....

[mikeylebeau]

BTW, it is a gr8 pleasure hearing people wanting to come to Holland! Yes, it is a fun country, where people hardly ever make a big deal out of anything! That's a part of our national personality which I am proud of.

This is an *excellent* way of putting it. This is what I love about Holland. There are all these ridiculous issues sometimes in my neck of the woods that always make me wonder, 'don't these people have anything better to do than to argue about such stupid things?'. The whole fact that people are so up in arms about gay marriage is one of them. Why should any straight couple *care* if two men or two women want to get married to each other?! I think this is a viewpoint that a lot of Americans, both liberal and conservative, can relate to.

But in any event, yes, one of my favorite things about Holland and one of the reasons I'm sure I'll move back at some point after college is that there's a very 'do what you want to do' type of attitude that is extremely refreshing and liberating... even for someone who isn't really looking to do anything all that out of the ordinary!

MacsRgr8, leuk dat je hier bent. Altijd goed om Nederlanders te zien. ;)

-mike

[MacsRgr8]

Let's teach paulwhannel some Dutch right away then:



MacsRgr8, leuk dat je hier bent. Altijd goed om Nederlanders te zien. ;)

-mike


Meaning:
It's nice you're here, MacsRgr8. It's always good to see Dutch people.

Bedankt, mikeylebeau!

Meaning:
...... (can't be too hard to figure that one out! :D )

[mikeylebeau]

Haha. :D

-mike

[MacsRgr8]

Just to add a bonus to "Coming to Holland"....

We're getting our MacExpo back, after 7 years of emptiness! :)

Eh.. don't think Steve will give a Keynote speech though.... :o

[MacNeXT]

Let's teach paulwhannel some Dutch right away then:




Meaning:
It's nice you're here, MacsRgr8. It's always good to see Dutch people.

Bedankt, mikeylebeau!

Meaning:
...... (can't be too hard to figure that one out! :D )

Toch meer nederlanders hier dan ik dacht :-)

[mikeylebeau]

Toch meer nederlanders hier dan ik dacht :-)

Ikke niet, hoor. ;)

-mike

[rainman::|:|]

haha great dutch lessons here... actually my first Dutch word was, well the word for "can", because it's pretty similar to a slang word for the vagina... in spelling if not in pronounciation.

:D hehe... now if only all dutch worlds looked like swearing, I'd be set...
paul