Political correctness

[alex_ant]

What do you think about it? You don't have to be P.C. in your answers. :)

[Ifeelbloated]

It mucks up everything. I hate it. Keeps people standoffish.

[mcrain]

It is a necessary evil. I personally don't like it, but because there are so many idiots out there who don't think before opening their mouth (or just plain lack the brainpower to understand what they are saying), we have to have it.

I mean, PC was designed to shut up people who didn't understand that derogatory descriptions are just that, derogatory.

If people weren't so stupid and were nicer to each other, we wouldn't need PC.

[bigsteve3]

I agree that to a certain extent P.C. is necessary. However, it lends itself to being abused by people that want to play the role of some sort of victim of discrimination. I mean, I personally am very offended that I am considered a MacRumors newbie (see profile). It unjustly implies that I lack experience or some sort of knowledge, and I consider it a derogatory term ;)

[Sun Baked]

Nothing wrong with political correctness, and basically shaming people into altering their behavior.

But when lawyers become involved, I think it's time to eliminate the victim and their lawyer from the equation. Because if someone is in a job an does not like their boss' speech pattern, switch/transfer jobs - you're likely not going to get the person to change.

But when people suffer for 20 years without complaining then file a lawsuit for mental suffering - it's time to wonder.

And in the real world, sometimes it's fun to torture the pc activists. :D

[alex_ant]

Well, what got me thinking about P.C. was this humorous (and brilliant) page: http://www-personal.umd.umich.edu/~nhughes/htmldocs/pc.html

I hope a strong pro-P.C.'er will chime in and get a good flame war started.

[macktheknife]

The concept of "political correctness" and the lawsuits you hear about in the media are two distinct subjects. As one post previously pointed out, P.C. is a form of discourse that sets a standard for "acceptable" words and phrases that avoid derogatory connotations that certain individuals might find offensive. The term "Orientals", once used to describe all East Asians, is now considered to be an offensive term due to the connotations the word contains. That is, the word "orient" basically means anything and anyone non-European. P.C. has more or less served its purpose (after all, no one can get away with the n-word anymore), and the appearance of *overt* racism or sexism in public discourse has mostly disappeared.

Lawsuits, on the other hand, are a completely different type of animal. Americans are sick and tired of hearing so-and-so sue for this and that and wonder why everyone can't get along. Well, the truth is that laws by themselves are inert. That is, they don't work unless they are applied. America has so many lawsuits simply because it has a solid legal system that allows individuals or groups to address their grievances. Of course, one can argue that such a system has been abused (shareholder lawsuits come to mind), but the alternatives in other parts of the world are definitely less palatable. In other countries, an individual would have no recourse if his or her property or civil rights were violated.

Just something to think about . . .

[AlphaTech]

Being P.C. is an unnecessary evil, which I refuse to subscribe to. :p

If you don't like my reply, TFB. :p

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by macktheknife
The concept of "political correctness" and the lawsuits you hear about in the media are two distinct subjects. As one post previously pointed out, P.C. is a form of discourse that sets a standard for "acceptable" words and phrases that avoid derogatory connotations that certain individuals might find offensive. The term "Orientals", once used to describe all East Asians, is now considered to be an offensive term due to the connotations the word contains. That is, the word "orient" basically means anything and anyone non-European. P.C. has more or less served its purpose (after all, no one can get away with the n-word anymore), and the appearance of *overt* racism or sexism in public discourse has mostly disappeared.
Where should the line be drawn? I think most people will agree that racial slurs are bad, but should political correctness extend to every possible situation in which any conceivable group or individual feels oppressed?
Lawsuits, on the other hand, are a completely different type of animal. Americans are sick and tired of hearing so-and-so sue for this and that and wonder why everyone can't get along. Well, the truth is that laws by themselves are inert. That is, they don't work unless they are applied. America has so many lawsuits simply because it has a solid legal system that allows individuals or groups to address their grievances.
Is that the real reason, though? I've always attributed the massive U.S. legal system to opportunism and lack of personal responsibility. If you're "lucky" enough to trip on someone else's property, for example, you might as well have just won the lottery. Then again, you're probably right about there being less lawsuits in other parts of the world as a result of less opportunity for recourse. Perhaps there is no single cause of the large number of lawsuits in the U.S. Or perhaps it's only an illusion and there aren't that many semi-trivial lawsuits after all...

Alex

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Is that the real reason, though? I've always attributed the massive U.S. legal system to opportunism and lack of personal responsibility. If you're "lucky" enough to trip on someone else's property, for example, you might as well have just won the lottery. Then again, you're probably right about there being less lawsuits in other parts of the world as a result of less opportunity for recourse. Perhaps there is no single cause of the large number of lawsuits in the U.S. Or perhaps it's only an illusion and there aren't that many semi-trivial lawsuits after all...

Alex

The so-called frivolous "lawsuits" you hear on the news are mostly sensationalized stories designed to maximize attention and ratings. Few news clips actually explain why the lawsuits were filed in the first place, let alone how those lawsuits were eventually resolved.

Take the infamous case of the lady who sued McDonald's for the hot coffee that burned her lap after she purchased it at a drive through. People screamed at how this was the "perfect" example of tort abuse. However, lawsuits involving complex legal issues are hardly ever black or white but shades of gray. The lady sued on the grounds that McDonald's used extremely hot and dangerous temperature to squeeze flavor out of every last coffee bean and was thus reckless. McDonald's countered that the lady was irresponsibly handling her coffee by placing it in her lap and contended that the temperature of its coffee was within legal limits. Both sides' arguments have merit, and both went to court as the arbiter of sorts for their grievances.

The jury eventually awarded the lady somewhere in the $2 million dollar range--the one-day amount of profits generated by McDonald's coffee. The judge, however, eventually reduced the award to some $200k.

In any case, both sides went to court after neither side was able to convince or coerce the other side. In other countries, the objections of the lady would have been ignored, or if the lady was a politically-connected individual, McDonald's would have been coerced to surrender more of its profits.

That said, I *do* believe that lawsuits are being used by a number of lawyers as glorified and legal extortion. The example of the class-action lawsuit on the asbestos industry is an excellent example:

http://www.fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=206477

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Being P.C. is an unnecessary evil, which I refuse to subscribe to. :p

AMEN! :D

There's a big difference between a truly derogatory term, like a racial slur, and other terms like "handicapped" or "fat". The extent that they try to take it to is just ridiculous.

Oh, and I'll always refer to "flight attendants" as stewards or stewardesses, whether they like it or not. And postman/postwoman, NOT "postal worker". And policeman/policewoman, NOT "police officer". That's the part of PC that I dislike the most: trying to combine male and female titles into one name. Like it's supposed to be "sexist" or something. :rolleyes: PCers would have a hay-day in countries speaking the romantic languages, where every noun is either masculine or feminine.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Hemingray
PCers would have a hay-day in countries speaking the romantic languages, where every noun is either masculine or feminine.
And indeed they do. :D

[rainman::|:|]

i think political correctness is okay, to a certain degree. If a group of people doesn't like a word used to describe them, they have the right not to be called that. They don't have the right to *change* that word every 10 minutes. My black friends don't buy into that "african-american" stuff, they're just black, which is OK with me-- but if they wanted to be called something else, why should it bother me? I'm a white (caucasion for those PCers) male, so I don't have a lot to say about the matter, but obviously i'm gay... i don't mind being called that, or hell even fag in a friendly meaning, but i don't like people (Westboro) chanting about the evil ******s... and to some gay people, ****** is equivilant to a particular "N" word with two g's in it... my personal opinion, is that if we ban the word, we give it power. that's why i accept the fact that black people can use the "n" word, but not white-- they've reclaimed it. i don't suppose that makes much sense, ah well. i don't see why people are so anti-PC, it's not like it means hours of work to accomplish, it just means you're willing to change with the times--

:)
pnw

[awrc]

Originally posted by macktheknife
[B]The term "Orientals", once used to describe all East Asians, is now considered to be an offensive term due to the connotations the word contains. That is, the word "orient" basically means anything and anyone non-European.[/B/

Except oriental technically describes anyone who lives in the east (vs occidental for the west). East or west of where isn't actually specified.

Still, I agree that it's an inappropriate term to use since it lumps together a whole slew of different cultures as though there was no distinction between them, purely because they live in a particular geographical area.

Sort of like the term "European", when you think about it :D

The problem with banning terms that people find offensive is that you'll always be able to find some word that somebody finds offensive, and always have groups claiming that refusing them the right to use an offensive word is depriving them of some aspect of their proud historical heritage and/or ignoring the the suffering inherent in their proud historical heritage.

It's everywhere, too. My ex-wife found the atmosphere in the UK very oppressive, where as the office American she was personally blamed for everything from McDonalds to the A-Bomb. I initially was sure she was over-reacting, but after a few weeks I started noticing it too, there was a definite anti-American streak in both the media and just in the general mindset of most people.

Of course, once we moved to the US, and I found that there's similar US stereotypes both about the British and the Scottish, she insisted that I was imagining it, and completely refused to even consider the possibility that it was there. One of the reasons she's my ex-wife, I think :D

However, as a Scot living in the US I routinely get subjected to the sorts of ludicrous stereotypes that nobody's allowed to subject more numerous minorities to anymore. Still, at least for *this* minority of one it's only words, and nobody's trying to dictate where I can/can't go, or hang me from trees.

Besides, as a Scot who lived in Virginia long enough to pick up some of the local speech quirks, then moved to Wisconsin and have been here long enough to pick up some of the local speech quirks here, I'm not sure what I should consider myself. The accent's still primarily Scots (i.e. most people automatically assume I'm Irish) but the language is some sort of hybrid of Scots, Southerner and Mid-Western, which confuses the hell out of people.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
i think political correctness is okay, to a certain degree. If a group of people doesn't like a word used to describe them, they have the right not to be called that.
Does their right not to be called whatever word outweigh the right of the user of that word to use the word?

[bousozoku]

My mother was Japanese, my father was white--American, English, Australian--I don't know.

When I left Japan, I was too white. We moved to San Jose, CA and things were fine. We even had a Japanese woman in my neighbourhood. We moved to Norfolk, VA which was also very integrated and it was fine.

When we moved to Indiana, I learned words like enemy and murderer and got a daily beating after school. People were definitely not politically correct. In Richmond, if you were Italian, Hungarian, or German, you were normal.

Anyway, if someone wants to call me Jap, it's not okay. I have the right, other Japanese have the right to use it, but it shouldn't be used full stop.

My adoptive parents are white and my mum grew up with all the slurs that you might imagine from an area which originated the KKK. My aunt's husband said at her birthday "All blacks are handicapped" and I got up from the table upset and walked away. I can't teach him but I can avoid him. As people his age, 60ish, die off, things will get better and being P.C. will be less of a necessity simply because people will have more respect for each other.

Each of us has unique and good qualities to be our best and make the world better. Okay, I'm done--please do not sing Kumbayah. :D

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by awrc
Except oriental technically describes anyone who lives in the east (vs occidental for the west). East or west of where isn't actually specified.

Still, I agree that it's an inappropriate term to use since it lumps together a whole slew of different cultures as though there was no distinction between them, purely because they live in a particular geographical area.
Hello, fellow sort-of-Wisconsinite, :)

What if lumping together a whole slew of different cultures is what the user of the word intends to do... Could "oriental" be used as a generic label for someone who is obviously from somewhere in the Far East, but where exactly is unknown? I understand that's what we have the word "Asian" for, but why is "oriental" a dirtier word, if all it means is "from the East?"

Also on the subject of lumping cultures together - is that a bad thing, really? I mean, the nice thing about using geographic location as criteria for grouping is that it's absolute and hierarchial. I can refer to every single person on the continent of Africa with one word - African - whereas if I were using culture to define the group of all Africans, I would be surprised if I could fit it in under 1000 words. Actually, instead of using all those words, I would probably just find a word with a proper connotation... like... "African"... meant not in the geographic but the cultural sense. I think that's what throws me off - geographic adjectives used as cultural adjectives for lack of anything better to use. Then, when somebody refers to an African (geographic) outside the cultural norm of Africans (cultural) as African (geographic), the **** really hits the fan, because the African person sees the label as an affront to his/her culture.

(Maybe this whole P.C. thing is rooted not so much in the way different groups behave towards each other, but in the way we use language.)

Which is not to say that geography is the "superior" method of grouping; if I were dealing with cultures and not geographical location, I would want to use culture as my criteria. It's a lot easier to define a group of 100 Christians as "Christian" than defining each individual person in the group by their geographical origin.

This is one of the big confusions of P.C. to me. Why are many blacks called African Americans when their great-grandparents or perhaps even more distant ancestors were the last of their lineage to set foot in Africa, whereas a resident of the U.S., born in Germany, whose parents hail from Russia, is called a German-American? I suppose it's a matter of different methods of grouping. There was this rally for slavery reparations on C-SPAN a few minutes ago which got me thinking about the subject, and I came to the rather quick conclusion that whether or not slavery reparations is a good idea probably hinges on what terms one uses to define the groups involved. Those who use only the groups "white race" and "black race" will likely come out in favor of reparations, whereas those who add a temporal dimension to these like "current white race," "past white race," "current black race," "past black race" will likely have a harder time deciding whether reparations are a good idea.

I am thoroughly disappointed by the dearth of flaming so far in this thread - could we have some uncivilized discussion, please?

Alex

[LethalWolfe]

Political correctness is a bunch ********* brought on by
over-sensitive whinners. Instead of the small percentage of whinners getting a thicker skin (up to a normal level) society has forced *everyone* to dumb down and cater to the lowest common denominator. Instead of encouraging everyone to do there best, and achieve great things. We are telling people to be average because not everyone can be great (and we don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings...) WTF? Case in point, (and I'll dig up the link if asked), a grade school in Santa Monica CA (gotta love SoCal) banned the game of tag because someone has to be "it." And since the slower kids will usually be "it" they might develop self esteem issues. :rolleyes:

Calling some one a ******, kike, spic, wetback, jap, stupid slut etc.,. goes beyond "not PC" it is racist and/or sexist (depending on the terms used and who they are directed at). There is a difference between political correctness and racism/sexism.

And I'm not even gonna touch the lack of personal acountability that is shooting thru this country like a disease (that's a whole other rant).

Lethal

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by alex_ant

What if lumping together a whole slew of different cultures is what the user of the word intends to do... Could "oriental" be used as a generic label for someone who is obviously from somewhere in the Far East, but where exactly is unknown? I understand that's what we have the word "Asian" for, but why is "oriental" a dirtier word, if all it means is "from the East?"



The reason why the word "Oriental" is considered an anathema by some (but not me) is that it is a term coined by Europeans who wanted to lump every non-westerner into a group. It also a bit connotative since it was frequently used in the old days of European imperialism to describe the colonized. Just as the n-word could, technically speaking, refer to an African-American, it is an emotionally charged word. Granted, "Oriental" is definitely not on the same level as the n-word, but some people take offense nonetheless.



I am thoroughly disappointed by the dearth of flaming so far in this thread - could we have some uncivilized discussion, please?


You won't get any uncivilized rantings here. I actually enjoy a calm and reasoned debate, but that just my preference. :p

[macsurfer]

Political Correctness NEEDS TO DIE!!!!!

Like those STUPID ******** Asian students at Stanford University had nothing better to do with their time but to protest Abercrombie and Fitch T-Shirts like the one that had the Chinese Laundry on it; the one that said "Wong Brothers Laundry: Two Wongs will make it white" LOL I thought that was HILARIOUS, because it IS ******** HILARIOUS. OH, and by the way, I AM 25% CHINESE, MY MOTHER IS 50%, MY GRANDMOTHER IS 100%. BUT NOOOO, some stupid Asian Student group at Stanford gets all offended and protests and AF gives in and PULLS THE T-SHIRTS. You know, in Hawaii (where I was born and grew up, but no longer live, though my mothers family is still there) people would LAUGH THEIR ASSES off at that shirt and no one would care. In Hawaii everybody makes fun of everyone else and everyone laughs, but in California, the over sensitive Asian Student Group goes ******** bananas. What studpid idiots.

[awrc]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Hello, fellow sort-of-Wisconsinite, :)

What if lumping together a whole slew of different cultures is what the user of the word intends to do... Could "oriental" be used as a generic label for someone who is obviously from somewhere in the Far East, but where exactly is unknown? I understand that's what we have the word "Asian" for, but why is "oriental" a dirtier word, if all it means is "from the East?"

Negative connotations - wily orientals, terms like DWO and so forth.

Actually, DWO doesn't get used up here in Wisconsin, probably due to the very different ethnic mix. I heard it used a lot in Virginia though - the combination of a lot of recent immigration from various Asian countries to the region and Virginia's incredibly easy-to-pass driving test (it's where I got my license, after all) resulted in the situation where there was an, uh, disproportionate number of people who were a) extremely inexperienced drivers and b) Asian. This gave rise to the term Driving While Oriental which was, most definitely meant in a negative way.

The Wisconsin variation is FIB, I guess, and since it's not race-specific but state-specific, I guess it's not considered as offensive.

Oh, and finally with the whole oriental/occidental thing, there's the issue of who the people are who're deciding where the line that marks the start of the orient is. It usually isn't the people who live there.

Relative to my current physical location and the original meaning of oriental, someone living in Virginia is oriental. Although I'm technically occidental to the Virginian, I'm much more likely to be stereotyped as someone who wears a Green Bay Packers sweatshirt and cheesehead, is 50lbs overweight, and lives in flyover country.

Only the 50lbs bit is accurate.

Also on the subject of lumping cultures together - is that a bad thing, really?

It can be, depending on context. "Asian" as a geographical term is pretty accurate - it's pretty clearly marked out on the globe. As a cultural term, though? Take two random Asian cultures - Korea and Japan. There's a lot of people in both countries who wouldn't like being lumped together with the other. We're not just talking war atrocities either, we're talking very different cultures.

On a slightly smaller but equally virulent scale, go into a pub in Edinburgh and start referring to the clientele as English. Later, when you've been released from hospital, you'll make a mental note on the distinction between the two :D

This is one of the big confusions of P.C. to me. Why are many blacks called African Americans when their great-grandparents or perhaps even more distant ancestors were the last of their lineage to set foot in Africa, whereas a resident of the U.S., born in Germany, whose parents hail from Russia, is called a German-American?

It's a mix of stuff - pride in heritage, the matter of whether their ancestors came over here by choice or not, whether other names for the group have been used in a negative way in the past.

I'm happy to call people whatever they want to be called. The problem is that you're guaranteed to eventually find someone who finds whatever term you're using offensive. African-American is a safe term most of the time. It's not over-PC (like "people of color", which I can't stand, it implies that I'm transparent or something) but doesn't really have negative connotations.

Of course, you can overuse the term - some people use African-American to refer to anyone of African ancestry. I've heard people refer to the African-American community in the UK, which really makes very little sense unless applied specifically to a subset of US airmen stationed in the UK. Standard UK term used to be Afro-Caribbean, which wasn't very nice - most of the black population of the UK were immigrants from the Caribbean, and their ancestors were in turn slaves from Africa, but leaving out the country they were actually born in/living in was pretty bad. Not sure what the current favored term is, maybe one of our UK posters knows.

I knew two black people when I was growing up in Scotland. Both were Scottish, no other label. Both had parents who were immigrants, from Kenya and Nigeria respectively, but they considered themselves Scottish, so everyone else did too (well, apart from the usual pond scum you'll apparently find everywhere...)

I know at least one of them got great pleasure in freaking people out completely with his accent when he visited the US.

Oh, and on a related-ish note, when people ask about my accent and hear I'm Scottish they're all "hey, I'm Scottish too!". Then they tell you that their great-great-great-grandmother was a McDonald. You have to humor them, since they're only trying to be friendly, but when you know for a fact that all of your ancestors bar one as far back as the records go were peasants who lived within a ten mile radius of a small town outside Edinburgh, you tend to be aware of the difference in degree of Scottishness.

Ironically, the one ancestor who wasn't a Scottish peasant was about five generations back and moved to Scotland from the US. Does that make me American?

I am thoroughly disappointed by the dearth of flaming so far in this thread - could we have some uncivilized discussion, please?

Maybe we need to deal with some of the more extreme cases of PC? The race issue is pretty dead - even amongst those who're strongly anti-PC you'll generally find the old, offensive racial terms are in rapid retreat.

Maybe we need to concentrate on sex or disability-related PC? Or maybe those bizarre forms of political correctness that arise where the "oppressed" don't actually give a damn and the only people going around inventing new terms are those who're basically "professional PC activists".

How about negative geek stereotypes? I'm reading the "Foundation Actionscripting For Flash MX" book right now, which appears to be primarily targetted at those coming from a graphic arts background who want to learn Actionscript. Plenty of little anti-programmer jibes about poor hygiene, never seeing daylight and Star Trek being thrown around in that book. Help, help, I'm being oppressed! I'd complain except there's Star Trek on right now and it might involve having to go outside to post a letter.

They could have at least thrown in some graphic arts stereotypes about wearing black turtlenecks (and black everything, for that matter) and those rectangular glasses with the thick rims to even it out a bit :D

Actually, I'm surprised a thread on the subject of PC has lasted so long on MacRumors without someone making a bad Bill Gates joke.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by macktheknife


The reason why the word "Oriental" is considered an anathema by some (but not me) is that it is a term coined by Europeans who wanted to lump every non-westerner into a group. It also a bit connotative since it was frequently used in the old days of European imperialism to describe the colonized. Just as the n-word could, technically speaking, refer to an African-American, it is an emotionally charged word. Granted, "Oriental" is definitely not on the same level as the n-word, but some people take offense nonetheless.


Well, then there's also how Chinese call Japanese Orientals. You would never want to call Chinese that because they will take offence.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Does their right not to be called whatever word outweigh the right of the user of that word to use the word?

Well for the most part, I think two conditions have to be met; first the word has to have some negative connotations in it's origin, and second it has to be used as a slur, at least part of the time. Part of the fun thing about a civilized world is that the rights of the few are as important as the rights of the many. After all, the few, when added with other groups of few, eventually outnumber the "many"... case in point, try telling a white male that they are the *minority* worldwide.

:)
pnw

[vniow]

I think PC started off as guilt. It started to surface after all the women's and civil rights acts that were happening in the 60's and 70's, and was a guilty backlash to all that. It started out sorta good, but lately it's gotten way out of hand and here in America it's either you do or you don't, so I can see it getting so overdone and bloated that we eventually drop it altogether, but I don't see a reduced version which would be preferable, but not perfect. I mean, those words and phrases that aren't PC only have power if you give it too them. A real solution would be to somehow take those words and phrases and strip the power away, but I don't see this happening anytime soon either.


What is forgiveness?
Just a dream
What is forgiveness?
It's just a dream
What is forgiveness?
It's everything

[Sun Baked]

Where does p.c. leave us ...

mental -> emotionally challenged
blind -> visually challenged
handicapped -> physically challenged
fat -> calorically challenged
poor -> fiscally challenged
race -> racially challenged
gay -> sexually challenged

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by macsurfer
Political Correctness NEEDS TO DIE!!!!!

Like those STUPID ******** Asian students at Stanford University had nothing better to do with their time but to protest Abercrombie and Fitch T-Shirts like the one that had the Chinese Laundry on it; the one that said "Wong Brothers Laundry: Two Wongs will make it white" LOL I thought that was HILARIOUS, because it IS ******** HILARIOUS. OH, and by the way, I AM 25% CHINESE, MY MOTHER IS 50%, MY GRANDMOTHER IS 100%. BUT NOOOO, some stupid Asian Student group at Stanford gets all offended and protests and AF gives in and PULLS THE T-SHIRTS. You know, in Hawaii (where I was born and grew up, but no longer live, though my mothers family is still there) people would LAUGH THEIR ASSES off at that shirt and no one would care. In Hawaii everybody makes fun of everyone else and everyone laughs, but in California, the over sensitive Asian Student Group goes ******** bananas. What studpid idiots.

that is a funny t-shirt and i am an asian american (japanese american)

people have to just get a life and when i was growing up my dad had a store which said "fine oriental antiques" on the sign...no big deal - he made good money and i don't recall anybody being offended

stanford is a really interesting case...leland stanford exploited chinese americans in his day, but now the campus is at least one third asian and the biggest part of that is chinese

at one time, uc berkeley was the choice of the northern california asian american, but as the economic situation got better for asian americans and their kids got accetped to cal and to stanford, guess which way they went?

to the new yorker, that would be like being accepted to SUNY and to Columbia University...SUNY is the biggest and most successful public university in the world with a lot of great grads but columbia is an ivy with presidents as alums

when i went to stanford once to visit with my employee, he said, "hey, this looks like chinatown and everybody looks like you, boss"

and i said, "yeah, and stop checking out the chinese girls so much, they notice it and give ME the dirty looks" ;) :D :p

[Ifeelbloated]

If I lived down in Antarctica and my wife had a baby then my kid would be Antarctican right? If he moved to America then he'd be an Antarctican-American?:D

[Taft]

I think there are a variety of reason why the naming of black America is so difficult. I mean, for most people living in the US, where they came from was a pretty easy thing to trace. But when many blacks were brought here to enslavement, Africa was a very different place without a concrete sense of nationality. And, not unlike myself, many families have been here so long that the different areas that their ancestors came from get lumped together. I'm Scottish, Irish, English, blah, blah. Where a black person might be South African, Nigerian, blah, blah. Really we are just Americans.

When you have it down to that point, black and white really don't distinguish nationality or heritage. They only address the racial issue; skin tone, etc. So, to an extent, I see the necessity of the namespace that African-American holds. It describes the heritage that other cultures have with Chinese, Korean, Scottish, French, etc.

That being said, I still don't understand why black isn't acceptible. Or for that matter, many of the PC terms. I think people are too caught up in trying to ignore the differences between people.

WE ARE DIFFERENT!! Each and every one of us. We shouldn't ignore our differences. We should accept that there are differences and then move past those differences in our interaction. When people use PC terms, I sometimes get the feeling that they are internally saying, "This person is no different from me. We are just the same. We are all the same. The same..."

We are too caught up in same-ness. The idea of equality in every possible way just isn't acheivable or even desirable. Should the laws be color/race/heitage/religion blind? Yes. Should we try to hide our differences and pretend that each person is equal or the same. I don't think we need to.

On some level we are all the same and we should all be treated the same. On another level we are all different. As long as we give every person the respect they deserve and don't let stereotypes define our actions, why shouldn't we acknoledge and celebrate our differences?

Taft

[mischief]

I read earlier in the thread that someone thought that guilt was to blame. I agree. The advancements of Civil Rights and equal treatment in this country have been, from the civil war foreward a compounded mass of progress and lies. Let me just do a PC parody of a few things to jumpstart discussion.

Slavery wasn't abolished, it was de-regulated. Ask any migrant labourer or ICY about that one.

Women's suffrage. Well.... women can vote, but the Ivy league oligarchy from years past still holds. Pick a white- protestant male folks.

The Civil Rights Act and Femminism.

This is where the US just got stranger. All the bennefits in the short term were dilluted by being implemented long-term without update. Affirmative Action did a good short-term job of integrating education and employment but re-enforced long-term stereotypes by placing value on ethnicity.... which was what it was supposed to eliminate. Oops.

Femminism.... George Carlin did a good routine on this, go get it off Gnutella. When Feminism became Wymynism (getting the "men" out of "women" :rolleyes: ) it all went to ****. From 1979 to the present the culture has been turning women into anorexic parodies of men and men have been converted into weak, frightened psychological eunuchs.

[vniow]

Originally posted by mischief

Femminism.... George Carlin did a good routine on this, go get it off Gnutella. When Feminism became Wymynism (getting the "men" out of "women" :rolleyes: ) it all went to *****. From 1979 to the present the culture has been turning women into anorexic parodies of men and men have been converted into weak, frightened psychological eunuchs.

I'm in complete agreement with you on the feminism thing. There's two main groups of feminists, both centering on sexuality. The first one argues that sexuality opresses women. (insert man-hating vegan-loving lesbian joke here) And the second group argues that sexuality liberates women, somebody like Madonna. Personally, I have to go with the latter, not because I'm a sex-crazed teenager (which I don't deny), but because I think it's more feminine. Women are more sexual than men, in my opinion and through my experience, and frankly, the ones that argue that sexuality opresses women are coming from a very male background. Just look at your average Muslim culture where the women are forced to wear layers and layers of clothing with the only opening being for them to see out of. Why? Because the men in that culture are scared sh*tless. A woman's sexuality is so powerful that they have to keep it under so much clothing. It's a shame in this culture that men can be men and women can be men but nobody can be women. Believe me, I've studied this and I know plenty of women and girls that cut their hair short and wear mostly t-shirts and blue jeans but the moment I walk out in public with a pair of high heels on, people yell ******** fag, get away from me, or go to San Francisco you ******** fairy, but I just put on taller heels and walk on because I'm not guilty. :)


BTW, that anorexic anima figure we have in our models is disgusting. I don't want to date somebody who would snap like a twig when thngs get hot and heavy.;)

[alex_ant]

Mischief, I think you really hit a lot of that on the head. Especially the feminism part. There was an Esther Williams (famous beauty of the mid-century silver screen) marathon on TCM a couple weeks ago which reminded me how massively our culture has changed in just the past 50 or so years. Women, and I don't mean females or "womyn" but women, have almost completely disappeared. It's hard to find any under 70 years of age; the ones that do exist are dying off and leaving in their wake these odd creatures who are physically the same but mentally very different. The act of being feminine is now little more than a baiting tactic used to get sex; traditional feminine qualities such as warmth and compassion are now seen as being weak and pathetic. Strength, power, individuality, and independence are the traits to be respected above all else. It's no wonder most marriages end up in ruins nowadays; the traditional values of marriage are in direct conflict with what feminism brings to the table, and that has helped to cause the transform that has moulded marriage from the life-long union it once was to the two-year fling it is today.

The once formidable woman has reduced herself to a little boy, blushing at such tidbits of flattery as "why don't you show me those tits, baby?" Her sense of pride is no longer derived from any sense of genuine personal fulfillment; rather, it is derived from the number of looks her nice ass and her low-cut blouse get at the bar in between chugs of beer. (It is very important that she is able to keep up with her male counterparts at the bar, because if she can't, she is a weak, inferior, girl.) But although she is only a boy, she is a powerful boy in that she has a polarizing effect on males. She automatically separates every male she meets into two groups: those who counter her ************ (her attempts at asserting her dominance) by returning it even more stongly at her, and those who quiver in fear of her. This is only one of the many contributing factors to the reason our gender roles have been thoroughly ****ed up for the past 30+ years.

Alex

[vniow]

So it seems like the only true women left in this culture are us queens (and princesses)
I think we should start a whole 'nuther feminism thread :D


Well said Alex.:)

[mischief]

Originally posted by edvniow
So it seems like the only true women left in this culture are us queens (and princesses)
I think we should start a whole 'nuther feminism thread :D


Well said Alex.:)

My wife comes very close to primal woman. I was lucky.

Queens and Dykes (I mean it affectionately, My 1st Lesbian was a 300Lb greek Canadian. She was a friend of my parents... I grew up knowing a very cool Dyke-Shrug-) are their own thing. Hear me out here...

I figure if all of human sexuality is a range with bisexuality as a default state. Individuation begets an identity within that spectrum and you go from there. The real extremes are fully straight or fully Homosexual. At which point it gets more complex cuz you have to insert culture. Western Culture is based on VERY old axioms like old testament Hebrew law, British common law and Victorian era "Laws of Nature". All of these things conspire to produce a culture that is fundamentally sexually repressed, Feminized by 4 major wars, and repression backlash.

:D

Go home and **** someone with care tonight.;)

[vniow]

Originally posted by mischief


Go home and **** someone with care tonight.;)

Oh I will. :D

I wouldn't say that our culture is sexually repressed, I'd say it's just starting to blossom. By no means am I saying that we're mature about it, just look at strip clubs, that's a very adolecent fantasy, you can look, but you can't touch, wheras you go to a belly-dancing club and the whole point is to physically interact. It's got a ways to go, but it's been a long time since the 50's where the couple don't even sleep in the same bed (on TV at least :D) and words like orgasm, homosexuality and even menopause were frowned upon. It's got aways to go but I'm hopeful in catching up with the rest of the world.

edit: Oh and completely agree with you about our interpretation of the Bible's teachings, it's very Old Testament. I grew up in America's Bible Belt where Jesus Nazis try to enforce their facist beliefs that have nothing to do with the origional teachings of Jesus Christ himself. :)


BTW, you wouldn't happen to know a guy by the name of Dick Harrah would you?

[idkew]

freshman at my university are no longer called freshman- they are fist years students- what a bunch of crap!

i hate it!!

[Choppaface]

IMO political correctness has great intentions with horrible implimentation. sure it would be great if we could abolish all aspects of racism/ostracism/hate/negligence/etc from society, but that's not going to happen if we try try try to be careful about what we do/say/think etc etc...not to mention that it can be (and has been) abused by many people to see through their own agendas.

however i'd prolly agree to some extent on any reform that doesn't send us back to cold war politics/culture/society so to hell with the quality of my opinions on politics....

[macsurfer]

Originally posted by idkew
freshman at my university are no longer called freshman- they are fist years students- what a bunch of crap!

i hate it!!

THAT IS SO PATHETIC.

[alex_ant]

Yeah, "fist years students" - you'd think they'd at least be called first-year students or something. :)

[jelloshotsrule]

as for alex's points about females these days i agree completely.

having been to a couple amusement parks in the last 2 weeks, it hit me. a good 30% of the girls are wearing these short shorts that have a big word on the rear.... why would the word be there? and why are there so many shirts trying to empower women falsely with words like "hottie" or "princess"?

why not something like "intelligent"?

sure, most of the reason for that attitude is men. but not all men are like that. and an increasing number of girls think that all men are... all about sex.

anyhoo, just some thoughts...

[mischief]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
as for alex's points about females these days i agree completely.

having been to a couple amusement parks in the last 2 weeks, it hit me. a good 30% of the girls are wearing these short shorts that have a big word on the rear.... why would the word be there? and why are there so many shirts trying to empower women falsely with words like "hottie" or "princess"?

why not something like "intelligent"?

sure, most of the reason for that attitude is men. but not all men are like that. and an increasing number of girls think that all men are... all about sex.

anyhoo, just some thoughts...

It's wierd. I've had several conversations with my wife on the subject and the conclusion was reached that women don't dress all slutty for men... they do it competatively.

I have only met one guy who has sold out to the slutty-bitch-waif-pop-culture-female model and he has SERIOUS issues. Every guy I've talked too looks for solidly built, beautiful women who usually don't fit that model.

It's almost as if there are 2 breeds of women: Breeders and Boinks. Breeders tend to be much nicer, healthier, more primally beautiful women with hips that will support birthing a child. Boinks are predatory, catty and best for a one night stand. Boinks also tend to be the most Rabid Feminazis while embodying the very things they renounce.:rolleyes:

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by mischief
It's wierd. I've had several conversations with my wife on the subject and the conclusion was reached that women don't dress all slutty for men... they do it competatively.
I've heard women say that in defense of breast implants and plastic surgery as well. They'll say "I'm just doing it to be competitive with other women," or "I'm doing it to feel better about myself." Although they say they are doing whatever for one of these reasons, that's not the whole story - being attractive to the opposite sex is at the root of all this. Women don't compete with each other to see who can chug the most milk without puking; they don't compete to see who can gain the most weight in a shortest amount of time. They compete to win the favor of the men they are trying to attract, and that means conforming to the image of what they think men find attractive.

It's a shame that so many are mislead into believing that all men are sex maniacs, and then after working so hard to attract this character, they are thrown to the curb and left with a distaste for all men after lo and behold, they've just been dumped by their sex-crazed first boyfriend. It's even more of a shame that apparently nothing can be done about this.

Would anyone with a jaded skank for a girlfriend like to comment? :)

[mischief]

Originally posted by alex_ant

"I've heard women say that in defense of breast implants and plastic surgery as well. They'll say "I'm just doing it to be competitive with other women," or "I'm doing it to feel better about myself." Although they say they are doing whatever for one of these reasons, that's not the whole story - being attractive to the opposite sex is at the root of all this. "

" They compete to win the favor of the men they are trying to attract, and that means conforming to the image of what they think men find attractive."

"It's a shame that so many are mislead into believing that all men are sex maniacs, and then after working so hard to attract this character, they are thrown to the curb and left with a distaste for all men after lo and behold, they've just been dumped by their sex-crazed first boyfriend. It's even more of a shame that apparently nothing can be done about this."

Would anyone with a jaded skank for a girlfriend like to comment? :) [/B]

Apparently nobody with such a Girlfriend is de-whipped enough to comment.;)

But I will add some commentary. The real irony is that it DOESN'T make them more attractive in any long-term way.... it makes them precisely the kind of sex-object that makes men check to make sure they have a fresh condom handy.

Sure, such women will get a higher number of random boinks but they won't get much for relationships and from a survival standpoint it's very unlikely that they'll successfully breed. Plus there's the whole good sex vs. bad sex issue.... Boinks don't get or often give "good" sex because they neither get nor give much commitment and therefore don't really think much about technique beyond a basic formula. So even the sex crazed boyfriend will eventually go elsewhere.

There's also the issue of Society convincing both men AND women that short term recreational relationships are BAD. This is of course, complete ************. The healthiest thing a young person can do is go through as many short-term relationships as it takes to find a person they really bond with and NOT just try to fill an image in their head that was built up of contradictory information out of their past.

I actually think that it IS more about competition than survival because, in the end the Britney Spears clones usually don't breed and live into their fourties still playing teenage hookerling games. Often these unfortunate Boinks become Feminist Activists and perpetuate the overall dichotemy.:rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

i have met some MD, JD, and MBA women who were babes but in every case, they did everything they could to look unattractive

if they had grey hair, they wouldn't color it...they liked their extra wieght if they had it...and their wrinkles, if they had any, well, they never attended to them and were proud of them like a badge of honor like their diplomas

why is that?

why do professional women...like most of the ones i have seen in my 24 years in the working field, try to look like janet reno?

what gives?

men could look very handsome and still be president...like clinton or kennedy...but why are women so scared to look feminine if they are professionals?

and why do men, and many women, not take pretty women seriously?

i have to admit...i once had this gorgeous, smiling woman give me an anal probe prostate checkup and it unnerved the hell out of me...in the past, it's been old men MDs who did that test...this young woman was cute and by the time she was done, i was bowed up like some porn star ;)

when the checkup was over, she went up to my girlfriend and said i had a nice smile:)

[mischief]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
"i have met some MD, JD, and MBA women who were babes but in every case, they did everything they could to look unattractive."



"Why do professional women...like most of the ones i have seen in my 24 years in the working field, try to look like janet reno?

what gives?

Men could look very handsome and still be president...like clinton or kennedy...but why are women so scared to look feminine if they are professionals?

Why do men, and many women, not take pretty women seriously?"



It's all about history and the distortion of sexual identity that has gone on in the last century.

During the 20's it became fashionable for women to be sedentary, thin and goofy.

From 1929 through the end of WW2 it was absolutely neccesary for women to learn to be ruthless and take formerly "Male" occupations.

During the 50's Women polarized over issues raised by their Men coming back from War and wanting their soft, comforting Women back.

By the 60's the supply of healthy, intelligent, aggressive young Men was wearing thin from nearly a half century of feeding the world's battlefields. Both Men and Women of all ages were showing the wear of mass- Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Obsessive/Compulsive/Paranoaic Disorders brought on by extended societal upheaval and strife. As a result Women redoubled their former efforts at Pacifying and Remaking American Society.

Unfortunately, like early Scientists of the Victorian Era, These Political Activists had no model to work from and refused to have any part of the previous, Millenia-old order survive. Being that both Men AND Women who participated in this restructuring were born of Parents whose lives had been shattered by The Great Depression and 2 World Wars, they were in no psychological position to redesign Civilization's basic tennets and did nearly as much dammage to the culture's psyche as they made improvements to the laws and norms.

What has resulted is a Morass of extremes and gutted moreys Shiney New Rules and the rotting leftovers of a culture based on Conservative, Protestant, Extremist English folk who were, in fact every bit as conservative in their beliefs as of 1776 as the modern Fundamentalist Muslims appear to the west today. The only Christian group I can think of that was MORE extreme was the Spanish Inquisitors of the Ethnic Cleansing perpetrated earlier in Europe by the Catholic Church. So Americans of both sexes are confused, embarassed by their own sensuality, repressed, split between conservatism, fundamentalism and Rationalism, and totally without a societal model to turn to to reset their rather scrambled sexual identities.

[mischief]

I just have to bring it back on subject.

Being as all of the above is HISTORY it gives us some context on Pollitical correctness. Perhaps PC is a subconcious effort on the part of those same Activists to suppress language and views that may show them that the failed or worse: that they were wrong. For all the changes on Paper in the last 100 years, attitudes haven't really changed, if anything those who were backwards before are even more so now and those who were once regarded as wise and trusted are now anathema.

We are raising a third generation now that will have no role models and almost no supervision. We are a nation of aging adolescents who had to care for their incapacitated parents, now raising Children without the slightest clue HOW to be parents..... I feel genuinely sorry for the generations just 10 years older than myself because they are still lying to themselves about all the changes in the last century and it's up to MY generations and our younger siblings to make it right as fast as we can before the US becomes a truly directionless, depressed assylum who's only discourse is Online and only solace is Prozac.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
when the checkup was over, she went up to my girlfriend and said i had a nice smile:)

Oh my good God! I think I might just die from the the laughter!

LOL lol LOL lol LOL

[Choppaface]

Originally posted by mischief
it's up to MY generations and our younger siblings

what ages are these again?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by mcrain


Oh my good God! I think I might just die from the the laughter!

LOL lol LOL lol LOL

my friend's mom is a urologist and when she has to perform similar tests, the most embarassing uncontrolled things happen worse than what happened to me

men who thought nothing fun would "work" anymore "explode" or empty their bladders and some are so embarassed and shocked they actually cry like babies

[sneed]

I don't really see anything wrong with political correctness. We are already taught from a very young age that there rules in regards to speech. ***** can be used in various ways, and with a wide array of social groups, but it still isn't okay to use it in front of grandma. We know that there are times which we can use it, and we know that there are time we can't. All political correctness has done, in my opinion, is point out that our list of questionable words wasn't complete when we learned it.

[mischief]

Originally posted by Choppaface


what ages are these again?

I'm 25. Figure it out.;)