Apple Asteroid?

[MacRumors]

AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=756) claims to have knowledge of a new audio interface for GarageBand users in the coming months. An audio 'breakout box' of sorts, Asteroid will include two XLR/ TRS audio input connectors, two RCA analog output jacks, and a standard headphone jack. The device reportedly will draw power through a single FireWire 400 port and include a phantom on/off power switch. Developed by portions of the crew originally responsible for Emagic and recently spun into Apple's iPod division, the device is expected to be debuted during the MWSF show in January 2005, along with a revision to the iLife suite of applications, including a new version of GarageBand.

Asteroid will require Mac OS X v10.2.8 or later, iLife ‘04 or later, and a computer with a built-in FireWire port. A forthcoming revision to the Mac OS X Sound Preference Pane will reportedly allow Asteroid to interface with Apple's Soundtrack, Logic, DVD Player, and other third party applications. Meanwhile, revised FireWire Audio sound drivers have already appeared in early versions of the company's Mac OS X 10.3.7 Update.

The device will retail for approximately $129 - $149 and will aggressively target similar products such as M-Aduio's Mobile Pre and Edirol's UA-5 USB Digital Audio Capture device. But even at $149, Asteroid will represent one of the lowest priced FireWire breakout boxes on the market, selling for $250 less than M-Audio's more sophisticated FireWire 410 audio interface.

[virividox]

wow really good value for the price. i might be tempted to get one!!! darn u apple u make me poor

[narco]

Sounds good to me. By the way, there's a typo on M-Audio.

Fishes,
narco.

[nagromme]

http://images.appleinsider.com/images/product-asteroid.jpg

Cool to see more stuff coming from the new "iPod Division." AI has a good track record lately--this sounds true to me.

This is outside my area for sure... what are examples of how a breakout box like this would make GarageBand more useful? What does this do more easily than other methods? Just OS integration? (Not to sneeze at that. Or maybe a massively lower price would be enough :D )

And I know the rumored specs are prelimary... but wouldn't more inputs (like optical) be important? Are those big plugs common for consumers? (But maybe this is "prosumer," not consumer.)

[Trowaman]

so, is this thing just basically a hub for all your different music cords and feeds them all into your Mac . . . or PC via Firewire?

[coolfactor]

so, is this thing just basically a hub for all your different music cords and feeds them all into your Mac . . . or PC via Firewire?

I think this will be an intro product for a whole line of products, with some getting more advanced features.

I'm confident there will be the "Apple touch" added that the competition hasn't considered yet.

[JohnGillilan]

This would make sense as all of eMagic's old hardware has been discontinued.

[earthtoandy]

is is exactly what i need! i love it. amazing price too.

[orion123]

Is it me or is AppleInsider pulling a MOSR and running an old rumor as their own? Didn't PowerPage run this exact item once last week and again yesterday with more info?

I mean, I totally side with AppleInsider on this, they are trustworthy. I just wish they'd given a nod to O'Grady.

[fatbarstard]

This is very minor news.... unless you are 17 and madly writing your opus to take over the world on a synthesiser (s******).... :D

[katanna]

Does this mean I can finally get audio input on my iMac???
Yea!!!

Matthew

[KC9AIC]

This device would absolutely rock. I've wanted a way to connect Shure SM-58 mics with XLR connectors into my iBook for recording vocals. An Apple firewire device would skirt the issue of not having sound inputs and having a crappy built-in mic.

[supercres]

Needs digital audio out (and in?) to rival some of the other boxes.

[stoid]

Does this mean I can finally get audio input on my iMac???
Yea!!!

Matthew

You could always get the Griffin iMic. It's runs audio through USB. However, it seems that this Asteroid will give better sound quality.

[earthtoandy]

and it has pahntom power. SWEET!

[Mac-Xpert]

The device reportedly will draw power through a single FireWire 400 port and include a phantom on/off power switchI wonder if that's possible. Most microphones that use phantom power, require a 48v power-supply. Is it possible to get that kind of power from a firewire connection?

[Mike Teezie]

so, is this thing just basically a hub for all your different music cords and feeds them all into your Mac . . . or PC via Firewire?

Grossly over simplified explanation: A microphone's signal is too weak, and needs a preamp to boost its signal to line level.

Same for guitar or bass.

This would let you use two mics/guitars/basses whatever.

I would buy one of these the instant they were announced, even though I'm a Digidesign/Pro Tools guy.

[tacomancini]

Wow, this sounds perfect for podcasts. The latency in usb is just not good if you need to monitor your mixes. I would also like to see a firewire mic made similar to the Micflex (http://macmice.com/micflex.html).

[asif786]

Does anyone know...

...I'm trying to hide all my wires from my iMac. So far, I've only got one wire (apart fom power) coming out of it - it's an apple thin firewire cable that leads to a firewire hub behind my bed.

the firewire hub is plugged into my ipod, lacie drive. so, could i think plug this device (asteroid) into my hub, and then plug my speakers into the asteroid?

I know it's abit of a high price point just to get rid of one speaker cable tho.. :S

[cb911]

i'm not a musicy type person at all... but i was going to say that Asteroid is a really cool name for a piece of hardware!! (or software for that matter.) :D

but it seems that it's just a codename... :(

well Doctor Q might like the fact that the other codename was Q97... ;)

[backspinner]

I wonder if that's possible. Most microphones that use phantom power, require a 48v power-supply. Is it possible to get that kind of power from a firewire connection?
Yes, it's called a switched mode power supply (with very good filtering) that will transform a low voltage to a higher one. My guess is that the firewire power supply is about 12V on laptops.

[freddiecable]

It must have MIDI in and out!?!?

:confused:

strange otherwice...

[nagromme]

Does anyone know...

...I'm trying to hide all my wires from my iMac. ... I know it's abit of a high price point just to get rid of one speaker cable tho.. :S

I'm not clear on this device, but it does sound like it could be a way to (among other things) get audio to speakers via Firewire.

But there's also AirPort Express with AirTunes. That's wireless audio to your speakers--ONLY for music. But other sound still comes out of your iMac's own internal speakers (or speaker--if it's a G4), and depending on your needs, that might be just fine for non-music stuff.

[geminitsl]

One thing is for sure, if this device will have ASIO drivers that work in my music program, I will get it!

[cluthz]

Thought that apple wasn't allowed to produce audio production hardware, due to the apple corp agreement.
Anyway, this one looks nice, I hope it also gets a midi in/out too!

Especially the phantom power is nice!

[Palad1]

Still no Guitar input with a simple preamp...

That's all I need in order to fully enjoy GarageBand... Something that will raise the signal from line to mic, without the induced buzz.

[Windowlicker]

You could always get the Griffin iMic. It's runs audio through USB. However, it seems that this Asteroid will give better sound quality.

I'm sure it will. I had one of those Griffin iMics and it it was terrible. It gave more volume for the left channel, so every time I recorded something I had to spend a lot of time trying to get the channels to the same level. I'm not sure if they have made the product better later, but the one I had wasn't really what I wanted it to be so I sold it.

[chameeeleon]

Thought that apple wasn't allowed to produce audio production hardware, due to the apple corp agreement.


I guess they've basically said "screw it" since the lawsuit, and are using the "if we're going to get sued, at least we can get some more benefit from breaking the contract" approach.

[margotspop]

I will be disappointed if Apple release a product like this without support for Midi I/O since Garageband is very much geared towards Midi. As currently spec'd, apart from Firewire capability (which may not be a big deal for most hobbyist musicians) I don't see this product really competing with something like the Tascam US122 which gives you Audio I/O, XLR Inputs and Midi.

[sonictruth]

Still no Guitar input with a simple preamp...

That's all I need in order to fully enjoy GarageBand... Something that will raise the signal from line to mic, without the induced buzz.

Other message boards offer many ways to add a preamp for guitars, but the no-brainer solution I would recommend is the Korg Pandora PX4; link is http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=PX4. It does the preamp work, but really was designed for a million other things including amp modeling, effects processor, digital tuner, drum/bass/rhythm patterns to play over, play over recorded loops, and on and on. All in a little box the size of a fat deck of cards, attaches to your guitar strap if you want, backlit display...

I bought mine used (3-months used) for $150 last winter, new on everyday-type discount is about $200, and list is $225 or $250. Check eBay too. A brilliant little box.

[Palad1]

I bought mine used (3-months used) for $150 last winter, new on everyday-type discount is about $200, and list is $225 or $250. Check eBay too. A brilliant little box.

That's what I ended up doing, I've been toying around with an X V-amp for the last couple of weeks until I sold my guitar, and this happened... (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=98110)

[sonictruth]

That's what I ended up doing, I've been toying around with an X V-amp for the last couple of weeks until I sold my guitar, and this happened... (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=98110)

Ouch!! I feel your pain (and fortunately not your guitar's). That's one serious intonation problem... So what's happened since you called? Also, if you have a moment, what's the X V-amp?

[Palad1]

Ouch!! I feel your pain (and fortunately not your guitar's). That's one serious intonation problem... So what's happened since you called? Also, if you have a moment, what's the X V-amp?

It's a nice little pedal that includes:

Noise Gate
Equalizer
Standard Effects (chorus/flanger)
Amp simulation (not so bad, only the acoustic mode sounds 'midi-ish')
AND an expression pedal, very nice for the wah :cool:


Here are the specs (http://www.behringer.com/X-V-AMP/index.cfm?lang=ENG)

It has one guitar level input, one guitar level output and one mic level output (which I can plug into my powerbook's mic in and at least, get rid of that annoying BUZZZZZzzzzzzzz )

As for the guitar, thanks, here sister's on the way ;)
I called, they are exchanging it, no questions asked (the person who packed it forgot to loose the strings before sending it to UPS).

[Daveway]

I don't want to sound stupid are anything but what exactly is phantom power?

[Windowlicker]

Does anyone know...

...I'm trying to hide all my wires from my iMac. So far, I've only got one wire (apart fom power) coming out of it - it's an apple thin firewire cable that leads to a firewire hub behind my bed.

the firewire hub is plugged into my ipod, lacie drive. so, could i think plug this device (asteroid) into my hub, and then plug my speakers into the asteroid?

I know it's abit of a high price point just to get rid of one speaker cable tho.. :S

Hey I'm all for you on that one! I'm trying to have as little cables as possible too. I guess I should get a BT mouse and keyboard. nahh that's where goes my line. I'm not putting that money there. or well, maybe some day.

[Palad1]

I don't want to sound stupid are anything but what exactly is phantom power?
You've never heard of WSP (Wireless Power Supply) drawing energy away from the souls floating around the base station?

:p

[2A Batterie]

For those who asked... oversimplified, phantom power is a 48v signal that is required for certain microphones such as condesor types. Condensor mic's are designed differently than dynamic mics (such as an SM58, the mic most bands use for live vox) and pick up sound differently based on their diaphram design.
For those who are bummed out about no MIDI on the Asteroid, just purchase a simple 1x1 MIDI USB interface... they cost under $50.

[swissmann]

I would like to use this for a little bit different application. I am not a sound guy but rather a video guy that fairly often needs a good voice recording as commentary. I could use this for that and also use it to play around in some sound apps to create background tracks.

[pauld]

a lot of new 'midi' keyboards just plug straight into the usb port. the one i'm using didn't even need drivers installed or anything like that.

[Mike Teezie]

Still no Guitar input with a simple preamp...

That's all I need in order to fully enjoy GarageBand... Something that will raise the signal from line to mic, without the induced buzz.

I has a XLR (mic) / TRS (guitar/bass) input. It's a pretty ingenious design, one seen on MOTU and DIgidesign's hardware. One input can accept either a mic's XLR cable, or a guitar's TRS cable.

[pgwalsh]

One key element to make this device a winner. A VOLUME CONTROL nob. Not a small, I can barely touch the thing, nob, but a large one. Maybe take from the ipod.

Too many devices have no volume control nob. If you've ever had an audio connection go bad, you know that hi pitched squeal... It's enough to make you afraid, very afraid.

As said early.. maybe midi in/out/thru. I'd like to see 1/4" jacks instead of XLR or put the kind that can accept either 1/4" or XLR in the same place. Digitial in/out would be nice. Oh and hopefully it's full duplex.

[fpnc]

Although this rumor seems somewhat "solid" I'm still having a problem believing it. This just doesn't seem to match with Apple's current, all-consuming, basic-consumer focus (iPod, iPod, iPod...).

As one example, the Firewire interface, although common in "pro" audio/video gear, just seems out of place. In fact, IMO, it's probably time for everyone at Apple to recognize that Firewire is essentially "dead" in the consumer space. Sure, it will continue for a few more years in DV cameras but that's about it. I suspect that it won't be too long before Firewire is even dropped from the iPod.

Second, it seems like this product would have a very small market potential, being that it would have a limited appeal within an already small group (i.e. the universe of Mac users).

Lastly, it competes directly with third-party products that are already well established, from companies widely known in the prosumer and professional markets.

Therefore I say on this product, not likely (at least not under the Apple logo). It's also possible that this was just an prototype product, something that will never see the light of day, and that it is just a too-long-saved leftover from Emagic.

That said, if Apple did introduce such a product for under $150, and it had very clean pre-amps with robust and versatile analog/digital conversion then even I might be interested. It would be nice, however, if it also offered RCA-style or mini-plug, line-level, analog inputs. But, in this latter case I guess they could just offer seamless integration with the existing analog inputs on most Macs.

[jared_kipe]

What about midi in and out?? I can't see apple releasing such a product without being able to harness midi keyboards. Also, I think apple would put the connectors on the sides, not the top of the device.

[jared_kipe]

Although this rumor seems somewhat "solid" I'm still having a problem believing it. This just doesn't seem to match with Apple's current, all-consuming, basic-consumer focus (iPod, iPod, iPod...).

As one example, the Firewire interface, although common in "pro" audio/video gear, just seems out of place. In fact, IMO, it's probably time for everyone at Apple to recognize that Firewire is essentially "dead" in the consumer space. Sure, it will continue for a few more years in DV cameras but that's about it. I suspect that it won't be too long before Firewire is even dropped from the iPod.


Who said firewire was "dead" in consumer space. This obviously isn't going to be marketed (maybe not even work) to anybody but mac users. And all macs have a firewire port. Firewire speed is more than enough for this kind of data transfer. What do you want? USB2.0? Most consumer macs don't have it, and usb1.1 is too slow.

[Palad1]

I has a XLR (mic) / TRS (guitar/bass) input. It's a pretty ingenious design, one seen on MOTU and DIgidesign's hardware. One input can accept either a mic's XLR cable, or a guitar's TRS cable.

Ohhh goooooood :)

GarageBand will soon earn its name with this device :)

[cluthz]

It's a nice little pedal that includes:

Noise Gate
Equalizer
Standard Effects (chorus/flanger)
Amp simulation (not so bad, only the acoustic mode sounds 'midi-ish')
AND an expression pedal, very nice for the wah :cool:


Here are the specs (http://www.behringer.com/X-V-AMP/index.cfm?lang=ENG)

It has one guitar level input, one guitar level output and one mic level output (which I can plug into my powerbook's mic in and at least, get rid of that annoying BUZZZZZzzzzzzzz )



As for the guitar, thanks, here sister's on the way ;)
I called, they are exchanging it, no questions asked (the person who packed it forgot to loose the strings before sending it to UPS).

About your guitar, this has also happened to my Gibson!!!
It's a usual problems with the gibson heads.
I paid $400 to get it repaired (I could have fixed it cheaper, but I wanted the best..)
The head is as new, even if you use a microscope you can't see it..

As for recording guitar I use a Digitech RP6 and i also has a little stereo preamp (vivanco mx510). It works great for my guitar recordings.

[apple2991]

Second, it seems like this product would have a very small market potential, being that it would have a limited appeal within an already small group (i.e. the universe of Mac users).

Who says it will be Mac-only? I think the idea behind Apple making such huge strides into the music indsutry is to offer a multi-pronged attack. That applies not only to penetrating the PC market (as they did when iPod and AE became PC-compatible), but to the halo effect as well. The more "hub of your digital lifestyle" products Apple can offer to potential switchers who are attracted to Macs because of digital lifestyle products (iPod, iMac G5, etc.), the better. This will just add to the hub.

Lastly, it competes directly with third-party products that are already well established, from companies widely known in the prosumer and professional markets.

Yeah, yeah it does. But who isn't willing to pay for the Apple brand--the style, the ease of use (plug in and go), and the comfort that it will just work with everything else you have? Maybe if you are using ProTools or other professional level stuff, this is a non-issue. But for me, and I'm sure a huge number of other people who record music but not professionally, this is an easy, simple, good to go general product. Especially if it's being targeted at GarageBand users.

That is, if it's real.

[iMeowbot]

This is outside my area for sure... what are examples of how a breakout box like this would make GarageBand more useful?
The XLR connectors alone look interesting. Consumer PC audio interfaces usually leave you on your own to deal with adapting your cables to fit a 1/8" phono plug. Also, you typically don't get that many inputs; USB on the older interfaces limited that.
What does this do more easily than other methods? Just OS integration? (Not to sneeze at that. Or maybe a massively lower price would be enough :D )
Reduced clutter counts for a lot! Fewer connectors also give you fewer places to introduce hideous noises. I like it.
And I know the rumored specs are prelimary... but wouldn't more inputs (like optical) be important? Are those big plugs common for consumers? (But maybe this is "prosumer," not consumer.)
Those big connectors are standard for pro and semipro mics. Optical has its place, and digital interfaces are gradually creeping into everything, but for now most instruments are still firmly planted in mature analog technology.

[fpnc]

Who said firewire was "dead" in consumer space. This obviously isn't going to be marketed (maybe not even work) to anybody but mac users. And all macs have a firewire port. Firewire speed is more than enough for this kind of data transfer. What do you want? USB2.0? Most consumer macs don't have it, and usb1.1 is too slow.

All current Macs come with USB 2.0, but it's true that there are more Macs with Firewire than there are with USB 2.0. However, there are probably more Macs with SCSI than Firewire and interfaces do come and go and I'm just saying that Firewire is probably on the way out. Firewire is being squeezed between USB 2.0, Serial ATA, and gigabit (and faster) ethernet. If it weren't for the DV camera market I suspect that Firewire would already be "dead" in the consumer space. I place some of this blame on Apple (they didn't push Firewire products and the Firewire spec hard enough), although with the Mac's small market share it's kind of difficult for Apple to move the industry in the "right" direction (which, IMO, should have been Firewire for high-speed and bus-powered devices and USB for low-speed and absolutely lowest-cost devices). I don't think Apple can turn this trend around (it's really too late), so for all intents and purposes Firewire is soon to be "running on empty."

There is also the issue of product cost. Today, partly as a result of its limited market share Firewire is just more expensive than USB 2.0. Also, if Apple really wants another "hit" consumer product it should work on both Macs and PCs and USB 2.0 is significantly more common on PCs than is Firewire (and if you exclude the iLink or non-bus-power versions of Firewire then the disparity becomes even greater).

Here is my prediction, in another three years you won't be able to find consumer-targeted, Firewire-based products (except, perhaps, for "old," legacy-style DV cameras). I don't know how long it will be before Apple stops putting Firewire in their Mac (computer) products, but that may also happen within the next five years. True, three to five years is a long time in the computer industry, and there is still time to market Firewire products, but I suspect that they will represent a dying breed.

[Photorun]

This is EXCELLENT news (if true). My girlfriend is heavily into GarageBand but when I told her what my DigiDesign MBox cost she freaked out ($450, good think I didn't tell her what my Digi001 cost). She "sings" (er, sorta) and wanted a way of getting audio quality, balanced mix in with XLR input, not some rigging of such thing, we just started looking at things from M-Audio but weren't sure where to go. This solution from Apple would totally fit the bill to hook to her new iMac (it'd match it too if that concept is right).

GO APPLE!!!

C

[sif1949]

All current Macs come with USB 2.0, but it's true that there are more Macs with Firewire than there are with USB 2.0. However, there are probably more Macs with SCSI than Firewire and interfaces do come and go and I'm just saying that Firewire is probably on the way out. Firewire is being squeezed between USB 2.0, Serial ATA, and gigabit (and faster) ethernet. If it weren't for the DV camera market I suspect that Firewire would already be "dead" in the consumer space. I place some of this blame on Apple (they didn't push Firewire products and the Firewire spec hard enough), although with the Mac's small market share it's kind of difficult for Apple to move the industry in the "right" direction (which, IMO, should have been Firewire for high-speed and bus-powered devices and USB for low-speed and absolutely lowest-cost devices). I don't think Apple can turn this trend around (it's really too late), so for all intents and purposes Firewire is soon to be "running on empty."

There is also the issue of product cost. Today, partly as a result of its limited market share Firewire is just more expensive than USB 2.0. Also, if Apple really wants another "hit" consumer product it should work on both Macs and PCs and USB 2.0 is significantly more common on PCs than is Firewire (and if you exclude the iLink or non-bus-power versions of Firewire then the disparity becomes even greater).

Here is my prediction, in another three years you won't be able to find consumer-targeted, Firewire-based products (except, perhaps, for "old," legacy-style DV cameras). I don't know how long it will be before Apple stops putting Firewire in their Mac (computer) products, but that may also happen within the next five years. True, three to five years is a long time in the computer industry, and there is still time to market Firewire products, but I suspect that they will represent a dying breed.

first of all in the audio world firewire is one of the fastest ways to get audio in your computer every hardware audio interface manuf. is making one i.e. motu, m-audio, digidesign, tascam, edirol/roland, presonus etc. all of them are using firewire it's usb 2.0 thats on it way out. second I imagine pple is competing with Avid, Avid owns Digidesign(Protools audio editing competes with Logic),Avid(video editing competes with final cut pro),M-audio (music hardware equipment no competion) they are one of apple #1 competors in the creative fields Apple needs to get into the hardware field to stay competive with Avid.

[Photorun]

Here is my prediction, in another three years you won't be able to find consumer-targeted, Firewire-based products (except, perhaps, for "old," legacy-style DV cameras). I don't know how long it will be before Apple stops putting Firewire in their Mac (computer) products, but that may also happen within the next five years. True, three to five years is a long time in the computer industry, and there is still time to market Firewire products, but I suspect that they will represent a dying breed.

I respectively disagree with you. In fact I'm finding more and more things with IEEE 1394 technology beyond just DV cameras including audio. There's various developments in Firewire in external hard drive makers currently underway, as well as, optical media solutions which can push a lot more through FireWire 800 than through USB2. And peecee makers aren't backing away from FireWire, considering many that are made now, a growing number, include FireWire. Sales of FireWire devices have increased and even PeeCee World gave a favorable nod to FireWire over USB because of it's ability to power devices and currently hold the speed lead (almost 2X for FW 800 vs. USB 2.0). If your predictions are right (though I highly doubt it) it'll be a sad day because FireWire is currently vastly superior to USB technology and probably always will be, it will be yet another case of the better quality technology being Betamaxed. Then again, maybe you're right, buyers are incredibly stupid, look how many people buy peecees in the first place.

[fpnc]

first of all in the audio world firewire is one of the fastest ways to get audio in your computer every hardware audio interface manuf. is making one i.e. motu, m-audio, digidesign, tascam, edirol/roland, presonus etc. all of them are using firewire it's usb 2.0 thats on it way out. second I imagine pple is competing with Avid, Avid owns Digidesign(Protools audio editing competes with Logic),Avid(video editing competes with final cut pro),M-audio (music hardware equipment no competion) they are one of apple #1 competors in the creative fields Apple needs to get into the hardware field to stay competive with Avid.

I'm talking about the consumer space, not the "pro" or prosumer customer. USB 2.0 is currently and will continue to be the high-speed, peripheral wired-interconnect of choice for the vast, vast majority of non-pro users.

[Zigster]

I sense trouble coming down the road for Digidesign and Protools.

[Engagebot]

well, the problem is that there are already great devices like this available. You can get an maudio box for cheap too.

The only difference, is now you have RCA outs specifically for powered studio monitors, but how many GB users use real monitors?

[Engagebot]

you see trouble for digidesign? you're completely alone i'm afraid. you dont understand how established protools is in the industry. if GB is your first look into the pro audio engineering world, your view is slightly skewed.

protools has such a huge grip on the studio software and hardware markets, its going to take something huge for apple to step in here. garageband has a long way to go before it can beat an mbox, much less even a 002.

if you think GB is in any way, shape, or form going to compete with protools, you just have no experience in the field of audio engineering.

if ANYBODY is going to be able to take away from digi, its presonus. they're the only ones remotely capable. i have several friends that work at presonus, seeing as how they're based here in baton rouge. presonus has HUGE credentials with super-solid PRO studio products.

presonus makes some of the most quality preamps on the market, and thats hard to ignore. plus i know the guys working on the software. its solid.

[WinterMute]

I sense trouble coming down the road for Digidesign and Protools.

Different beast entirely, besides, if you want to use ProTools, you have to use Digi's hardware. What this little box from Apple will do is provide an interface for whatever Garageband turns into and for Logic Express.

Pro's won't touch it for the lack of digital in/out and only stereo minijack outputs, and it won't be a superior product to M-box or the 002 interfaces or the M-audio boxes, as they all feature hardware monitoring solutions to defeat latency problems.

It's a good idea for entry level musicians and as a more accomplished audio input for FCP and GB.

[RandomDeadHead]

Screw garageband!

This is a tool to help out the fledgling concert taper.


Still would never compare to my Oade Pre-amp with hand matched components.


Like I said Garageband can eat **** and die, this device has a much more dignified use, to aid in the legal live recording of the finest music ever know to man.

[fpnc]

I don't think there is any question that Firewire is on the way out. For certain applications Firewire IS technically superior to USB, but that's not going to stop the change. The truth is fewer and fewer products are being released in the consumer area that use Firewire. External storage solutions are going to serial ATA and USB 2.0, digital video cameras are going to USB 2.0 and MPEG2/4 (IMO, DV format cameras are also a dying breed, DV25 can't cut it in the age of HDTV and digital TV, and the next generation video cameras using MPEG2/4 are already here).

As far as peripheral ports, here is what I think the consumer iMac will look like in another 3 to 5 years.

USB 2.0 (or better -- USB 2.0+).
Airport Extreme (or better).
BlueTooth OR Wireless USB.
Video Out port (much the same as today, VGA and SDTV).
Audio in/out (analog and possibly optical).

Firewire will be removed and replaced (possibly) with a single ExpressCard adapter port (ExpressCard is a small PCI-Express-based replacement for the PCMCIA/PC Card). This way a person can add a high-speed ethernet, serial ATA, or Firewire card if they so desire. The PowerBooks and possibly iBooks will also get an ExpressCard port and thus the iMac will just be a slightly larger form-factor variation of a notebook computer. Apple might keep a 10/100 ethernet connection to satisfy the small business and education markets.

High-end Macs (Power Macs and PowerBooks) will most likely add a serial ATA port, gigabit or faster ethernet, and (of course) DVI video out.

I respectively disagree with you. In fact I'm finding more and more things with IEEE 1394 technology beyond just DV cameras including audio. There's various developments in Firewire in external hard drive makers currently underway, as well as, optical media solutions which can push a lot more through FireWire 800 than through USB2. And peecee makers aren't backing away from FireWire, considering many that are made now, a growing number, include FireWire. Sales of FireWire devices have increased and even PeeCee World gave a favorable nod to FireWire over USB because of it's ability to power devices and currently hold the speed lead (almost 2X for FW 800 vs. USB 2.0). If your predictions are right (though I highly doubt it) it'll be a sad day because FireWire is currently vastly superior to USB technology and probably always will be, it will be yet another case of the better quality technology being Betamaxed. Then again, maybe you're right, buyers are incredibly stupid, look how many people buy peecees in the first place.

[AlanAudio]

Many people here have commented on the lack of MIDI features.

What if Apple has decided that it's time to give mLAN a push into the mainstream ?

mLAN uses a FireWire connection to handle hundreds of audio channels and thousands of MIDI channels all at once. Support for it is already built into OS X.

Just as Apple popularised USB, Apple could also do the same for mLAN.

MIDI can be a minefield for the non-specialist user and I think that Apple would favour an alternative, newer standard to avoid customers getting frustrated with MIDI.

If most of the information published were gained from examining the outside of a box, you wouldn't have a clue whether the FireWire port was only a FireWire, or if it were intended for mLAN as well.

The other huge benefit from using a FireWire connection is that you can add several devices at once.

Therefore if you start by getting one box just for you and your guitar, you could add a second box to simultaneously record a pair of stereo mics on a piano.

There is a mention of a headphone socket. It would be really neat if that socket had a proper accessible volume control and the feed to the headphones could be independent from the feed to another Asteroid box.

Then you would be able to send one foldback mix to box one and a different mix to box two. In practice, you would locate one box near each musician and would have two mics and a foldback feed for each musician. The result would be an instant and scalable mini studio.

There would be limitations regarding FireWire cable lengths, but small groups would easily be accommodated within permissible cable lengths.

It wouldn't be comparable to a pro-recording set-up, but it would do all that many musicians and schools could want and it would be an excellent way to migrate users from GarageBand towards the Logic range.

[katanna]

Does anyone know...
...I'm trying to hide all my wires from my iMac. So far, I've only got one wire (apart fom power) coming out of it - it's an apple thin firewire cable that leads to a firewire hub behind my bed.


I have been wanting one of these for a while:
The U. F. O.
The USB FireWire Organizer
http://store.yahoo.com/lovemacs/noname7.html

Apparently, they are not selling them any more. It is from Xtreme Mac, but it is not on their site any more.
http://www.xtrememac.com/index.html

Keep searching eBay.

Matthew

[Mike Teezie]

As said early.. maybe midi in/out/thru. I'd like to see 1/4" jacks instead of XLR or put the kind that can accept either 1/4" or XLR in the same place. Digitial in/out would be nice. Oh and hopefully it's full duplex.

Again, if the specs on this rumored device are accurate, it already does.

TRS cables are 1/4".

[thevessels]

It must have MIDI in and out!?!?

:confused:

strange otherwice...

i was thinking the same thing . . but then again all my midi hardware is usb . . how cool would an apple midi controller be . .. omg :eek:

[fpnc]

Here, thankfully you say, is my last post concerning Firewire (getting a bit off the Asteroid discussion). Below is a link to a white-paper by James Wiebe who is the founder and CEO of WiebeTech LLC (a well known HD storage vendor). It discusses the future of Firewire and specifically the failure in the marketplace of Firewire 800. Mr. Wiebe is still relatively upbeat on Firewire 400, he says that FW400 will remain common and hold market share "well into 2006." He also predicts that by year 2006 Firewire 800 will disappear from high-end Macs (but, by extension, should retain Firewire 400).

http://www.dvformat.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=28819-0

I agree with most of what he says, except that I think that Firewire's glory days are certainly over. As to the 2006/2007 timeframe, I'd guess that that is about the time that Firewire becomes relegated to a mostly legacy support status for pre-existing (by then "old") DV cameras. But, remember, here I'm talking about non-pro applications.

In any case, I agree that Firewire IS technically superior to USB and I own at least ten Firewire peripherals (drives, scanners, DV/TV capture devices, cameras, hubs, etc.). I suspect that in the next year I'll buy another one or two Firewire products, but (once again) I don't think the long-term future looks very bright for Firewire. It's a sad but, I believe, true fact that we Mac users are going to have to learn to accept.

[pianojoe]

Mmmmm... very interesting.

Where's Midi in/out?
Can a FW port really deliver phantom power? We're talking 48V here.
The iMic mentioned above is not a tool aimed at musicians. In their FAQ there's a question: "What is iMic's latency?" And the answer is: "If you are concerned about latency, in the first place you definitely need something more sophisticated than the iMic."

[LethalWolfe]

fpnc,

I don't have time to make an in depth reply (I have a plane to catch), but your predictions about FW400, at least in regards to consumer video, are way off. DV25 is going to be around in the consumer realm for years to come. The "next big thing" in DV is HDV (hi-def MiniDV, which has FW400 I/O) and it'll be a while before it trickles down into the $600-$700 consumer range (assuming the format takes hold). In the pro area part of FW800's "ho-hum" reception is because FW400 is being stretched farther than I think people thought it would stretch. You can get uncompressed SD and HD (Panasonic's DVCPro HD) over FW400.

Everyone assumes that every new tech that's just around the corner is going to explode onto the market the way DVD or MiniDV did. But that's just not the way it works. HD has been the "next big thing" for years. But it has come at a pretty gradual, evolutionary pace, not the huge, revolutionary "bang" people keep predeciting it will be.


Lethal

[foniks2020]

As noted above this has got to be the big push for mLAN hardware by Apple... so far there are fewer than 10 products available that I can find..

Here's a link to a good site:

http://www.mlancentral.com/mlan_info/mlan_ppf.php

[bretm]

Who said firewire was "dead" in consumer space. This obviously isn't going to be marketed (maybe not even work) to anybody but mac users. And all macs have a firewire port. Firewire speed is more than enough for this kind of data transfer. What do you want? USB2.0? Most consumer macs don't have it, and usb1.1 is too slow.

I guess you've never heard of the Digidesign Mbox? It is USB 1.1 box with xlr in and out as well as rca out. 48v phantom power as well, and there is no power adapter. Comes with copy of Protools LE. I can run every aspect of the mac audio in/out of it except alert sounds. 1.1 aint too slow for audio by any means. Audio requires next to no bandwidth at all. Have we forgotten that a previous version of the G4 only had usb audio out?

[AlanAudio]

I'm delighted that foniks2020 picked up on my comments about mLAN.

If it weren't for that, Asteroid would be another 'me too' product. It doesn't offer much of significance beyond what has already been on the market for a while and Apple usually prefers to be a step or two ahead of the herd, rather than to follow.

mLAN is an interface designed around FireWire and if it becomes established, it will further secure FireWire's position for the future. It also offers the promise of plug and play interconnectivity for audio equipment, just as it already does with video cameras. It carries multi-channel audio, MIDI, timecode and power and you only need to ensure that the cable is connected in some way - there is no dedicated input or output. FireWire hubs allow fanned-out connections. I understand that cable lengths can be greater than on FireWire, but am anable to confirm that at the moment. Perhaps somebody can enlighten me ?

At the moment, as Foniks points out, there's very little mLAN hardware available, but when the iMac first appeared, there was very little USB hardware and now it's everywhere.

Somebody needs to get the wagon rolling and who better than Apple ?

On the subject of phantom powering.

A number of people have queried whether FireWire can supply the 48 volts needed. It's not directly powered, they use a DC to DC convertor to step up the voltage. It's already been done in some of the portable FireWire audio adaptors and 15 years before that, things like battery powered portable mixers and Nagra tape recorders were using DC converters to generate 48 volts phantom power. It's a well established technique and it works very efficiently.

[geminitsl]

I guess you've never heard of the Digidesign Mbox? It is USB 1.1 box with xlr in and out as well as rca out. 48v phantom power as well, and there is no power adapter. Comes with copy of Protools LE. I can run every aspect of the mac audio in/out of it except alert sounds. 1.1 aint too slow for audio by any means. Audio requires next to no bandwidth at all. Have we forgotten that a previous version of the G4 only had usb audio out?

Let's not jump to conclusions here .. Sure, USB 1.1 is enough for one stream of 44khz to 96khz audio in 16 to 24 bits. For two aswell, no problem. But after that, you have to start cutting quality for it to fit. Audio requires _a lot_ of bandwidth, and that's a fact.

[NickFalk]

I don't think there is any question that Firewire is on the way out. For certain applications Firewire IS technically superior to USB, but that's not going to stop the change. The truth is fewer and fewer products are being released in the consumer area that use Firewire.

I think you are pretty much as wrong as you can be. While you might be right that USB2 is taking firewire's place in low-end consumer-products there are at least one huge scoop already made by firewire that will assure it's continued success: HDV

HDV will make HD-video recording accessible to "everyone(tm)" and as the chosen standard for this technology is already firewire, this alone will assure that the technology survives. As DV already uses firewire and the "next" techonology is also scheduled to do so, consumer videocameras will use firewire for the next 10-15 years at least...

[bretm]

Let's not jump to conclusions here .. Sure, USB 1.1 is enough for one stream of 44khz to 96khz audio in 16 to 24 bits. For two aswell, no problem. But after that, you have to start cutting quality for it to fit. Audio requires _a lot_ of bandwidth, and that's a fact.

The mbox does dual streams both ways at the same time. In and out. Think about it. Transcoding audio to 44.1 or 48 is a 1x real time operation. Like an audio CD playing. It only requires abut 500 mebabytes an hour transfer rate for 2 streams. 250mb an hour for one stream. Anyone that has ever owned a 4x USB CD burner knows that even a CD can be burned across USB in 20 minutes.

So I don't know what the exact transfer specs are of usb, but audio is not a hog. Maybe I'm used to working with multiple streams of uncompressed video. They even made real time mpeg2 convertors (cheap ones albeit) that worked over usb.

[Photorun]

I guess you've never heard of the Digidesign Mbox? It is USB 1.1 box with xlr in and out as well as rca out. 48v phantom power as well, and there is no power adapter. Comes with copy of Protools LE. I can run every aspect of the mac audio in/out of it except alert sounds. 1.1 aint too slow for audio by any means. Audio requires next to no bandwidth at all. Have we forgotten that a previous version of the G4 only had usb audio out?

I've heard of it, and own one, I also use a Digi002 that uses FireWire 400. The Mbox is cabable but it's two tracks at best and I have found limitations to it recording even two tracks and, when recording remotely, the Mbox is woeful, USB just doesn't cut it, sorry folks. FireWire however has bandwidth to burn with eight tracks (I've only gotten up to six) running into a Powerbook with effects galore pounding it... nothing USB 1 or 2 could use. Those who think FireWire will be dead, talk to me in five years so I can give you a hearty "way to be wrong, I told you so."

[dutchmaster]

There is a wealth of information which directly contradicts your notion that Firewire is on the way out. If anything, it seems Firewire is finally emerging as THE MUSIC INTERFACE STANDARD. And since this thread was about the possible Apple Asteroid, i will try to restrict my arguments and refernces to the realm of music tech.

As far as the statement that "in another three years you won't be able to find consumer-targeted, Firewire-based products (except, perhaps, for "old," legacy-style DV cameras). I don't know how long it will be before Apple stops putting Firewire in their Mac (computer) products, but that may also happen within the next five years. ... I suspect that they will represent a dying breed."
I think all you need to do to debunk this theory is look at the products that are being released right now as opposed to those released in the last few years. The ratio of Firewire based interfaces vs. USB in the last few years has increasingly moved toward Firewire and Apple's reluctance to establish USB 2 as a standard on all their computers is undoubtably a sign that they value firewire more highly. Don't forget that it was Apple who despite the cries of the message boards, ditched floppy drives , adopted USB and firewire, and have constantly innovated while many PC manufacturers offered the status quo. For just a snapshot of the emerging new Firewire technologies, these are items with Firewire released in one week at the most recent AES show:
Presonus firestation
Mackie Onyx 400F
Otari ND-20B w/ mLan control software
Tascam FW 1082 Firewire Audio/MIDI interface
tascam FW-1804 firewire audio/midi interface
tascam IF-FW/DM firewire expansion card for DM-24
Lynx Aurora 192 khz w/ optional firewire expansion card
and that was just one week at one trade show. To quote the aptly named MLanman :
"I saw a few new mLAN products from other companies and 3 new mLAN chips from other manufactures at AES... all working and talking to each other!"
One of the most important of these emerging technologies and products(besides Yamaha's emerging mLan ) MAY be Mackie's decision to offer Firewire options for their Onyx series of mixers (including the new 1220, 1620 and 1640) and digital X.bus systems. As one of the most popular choices for small and home studio mixers, Mackie is a company which offers many consumer priced products with 'Pro quality' parts and construction and has a strong following among budget minded home studio owners.
The choices for Firewire audio interfaces include some of the most popular and legendary products in the field including the long running MOTU 828 series which was Firewire from the start. Other notable best sellers and new products include the RME fireface 800, MOTU's 896, 828 mkII and Traveler, Tascam FW1884 DAW controller and audio/midi interface, Digidesign's Digi 002 LE rackmount and desktop, M-Audio's FW1814, Firewire 410, Firewire Solo and Audiophile 2496, TC Electronic's powercore, the Presonus Firepod, edirol's FA101, terratec's Phase 24 and EWS MIc2 systems and Aureon 7.1, Creamware's Z-Link, Hercules 1612, Alesis' Fireport 1394, E-Mu's 1212M system. Almost all of these are new and emerging products whose makers saw the possibilities of firewire and chose to move in that direction because of its future possibilities and the prospects of the field using Firewire as THE BEST POSSIBILITY FOR MUSIC CONNECTIONS, PROTOCOLS AND INTERFACES.

Many music tech heads are finding it difficult to contain their excitement over the incredible possibilities of mLan technology, even those who work for direct competitors to Yamaha. This site is a great place to examine the past, present and future of mLan:
http://www.mlancentral.com/mlan_info/mlan_ppf.php

This site offers a great report on emerging mLan tech at AES:
http://www.01xray.com/home/index.html

The possibility exists that the major music manufacturers may work together to establish a new standard for mLan as they did with MIDI. More info on possible Yamaha/Apple cooperation in this recent link:
http://www.futuremusic.com/news/november2004/mlan.html

As far as head to head speed tests and comparisons ,there are so many examples it seems counterproductive to list them all here, so instead ill offer some links , many reflect test b/w USB 2 and firewire 400 which are very close in speed (480Mb vs 400Mb), the tests show that Firewire is more able and apt to maintain speeds closer to its ideal upper limit(400), and when Firewire800 is considered there really is no comparison:
http://www.barefeats.com/fire34.html (Firewire 800 Kicks Arse!)
http://forum.canopus.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=218793&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-17483
http://www.g4techtv.com/freshgear/features/39129/USB_20_Versus_FireWire.html
Take the techtv studies with a grain of salt, i think dblissmn said it very well [partially in ref to TECHTV and the like] : "these hacks then go and print stories about how USB is faster than Firewire, which they back up by testing the latest USB 2 product with inferior closeout Firewire products. None of them have ever heard of Oxford 911 and Oxford 922; 911, which is the Firewire 400 version, blows every USB 2 solution right out of the water, but most people whose job it is to know about these things don't know them."
Philly also laid it out very well in the same forum: "In fact, USB 2.0 was just Intel's "me too" attempt at FireWire-- that's the only reason it exists, to say, "Look, we have a fast comm bus just like Apple's!"
Only it's not "just like Apple's":
-FireWire is peer-to-peer so the devices can take care of themselves. USB requires a computer to control/manage the devices. That's Intel, giving you the razor (USB) so they can sell you the blades (CPUs).
-FireWire can do things like charge your iPod while transferring data to it, and you can usually daisy-chain the devices together without a hub. USB needs a rat's nest of AC adapters and cables and hubs, or the computer will start bitching about insufficient power on the bus for all the connected devices.
-USB 2 may have a higher top speed (480Mbps) than FireWire 400, but tests have borne out time and time again that FireWire can sustain data transfers close to its peak speed, where USB2 data transfers only spike that high occasionally.
-FireWire has different physical connectors for its 400Mbps and 800Mbps buses, so you know at a glance what you're dealing with-- most decent manufacturers of FireWire 800 devices will probably include the adapter in the box so they can be used on older machines. USB uses the same connectors for both versions, so there's a high probability you'll hook up your USB 2.0 peripherals in a 1.x USB port or otherwise screw things up so the USB 2 peripherals step down to USB 1.x speeds."
Firewire 400 competed with USB 2.0 in head to head tests in 2003 (and this is by a notoriously PC centric mag "So we ran tests to determine the best interface for many types of peripherals. We timed external hard drives, printers, scanners, DVD burners, and CD-RW drives over both USB 2.0 and FireWire. The results surprised us.
Though USB 2.0 is rated at a higher throughput speed, FireWire delivered faster performance on external hard drives when connected to a desktop."
from PC MAg : www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,844061,00.asp
To make a long post even longer, let me say that i hope the coming year will show Firewire, Mlan, IEEE 1394, etc. to be the best hope for a seamless system that allows the user to integrate all the parts of his or her home studio (Hardware, CPU, VST, Rewire, external rack effects, etc) into one cohesive whole through a central mixer/control device. To truly take advantage of the technology, manufacturers will have to come together and agree on some standards as they did with MIDI so mnay years ago with great results. I hope Apple takes a leadership role in this endeavor, and i think they will have to in order for the standard to succeed. This potential product could be an important first step, in that it offers a firewire audio interface at a very affordable price that can be simply used to allow the user to take advantage of all the possibilties of integrating Garageband and their existing instruments / hardware. i myself, a long time Cubase user have switched over to Logic because im excited about the possibilities Apple could bring to the table with its purchase of Emagic and a new OS and system designed from the start to handle audio and MIDI with ease and quality. I think Firewire has the best chance to be the interface protocol (i'm not a professional and my grasp of exact terms is not the greatest but i hope you know what i mean) that can best take advantage of all the emerging technologies and possibilities available in music technology. If Asteroid is anything close to the artist's renditions (I hope it will include MIDI), it will fill the exact need I have at the moment (low cost firewire interface). I hope the notion that you will be able to daisy-chain the devices to provide more than 2 simultaneous recording channels is in fact correct or that they will also release a more professionally oriented version with the ability to simulateously record at least four channels ,sync with MIDI and provide basic DAW control. if you made it this far in this massive post, congratulate yourself on being a patient creature.

[Surreal]

*edit-better stated above*

on the note of the mbox...192

that is all that REALLY has to be said to debunk any claim that usb1.1 is all that great. i know that 192 isnt a standard yet...but the HD series is digidesign...as is the mbox.

firewire isnt doing nearly as well as i ever thought. it is superiour to usb..but that is the problem really; usb is ubiquitious because of keyboards, mice, and external drives. firewire ISNT practical for those...becuase it was always about high bandwidth.

firewire 800 is an audiophiles dream...really...power coming through the cable too? but it isnt incredible feasible to add it to a whole lot of low data peripherials...

if drives were consistently outspinning their bandwidth, firewire would do well..but it is a fix for a problem that hasnt arisen for the masses; lack of bandwith.

i love firewire...not because it is a mac supported platform, because it is effiicient, well thought out and of higher quality than usb.

that said, it is not doing well at all. consumers don't need it. prosumer, and pro users do and i DO hope that pro hardware developers figure that out. firewire shoud do well enough to stay in existence if digidesign, motu, and presonus adopt it...and most ahve.

[jared_kipe]

All current Macs come with USB 2.0, but it's true that there are more Macs with Firewire than there are with USB 2.0. However, there are probably more Macs with SCSI than Firewire and interfaces do come and go and I'm just saying that Firewire is probably on the way out. Firewire is being squeezed between USB 2.0, Serial ATA, and gigabit (and faster) ethernet. If it weren't for the DV camera market I suspect that Firewire would already be "dead" in the consumer space. I place some of this blame on Apple (they didn't push Firewire products and the Firewire spec hard enough), although with the Mac's small market share it's kind of difficult for Apple to move the industry in the "right" direction (which, IMO, should have been Firewire for high-speed and bus-powered devices and USB for low-speed and absolutely lowest-cost devices). I don't think Apple can turn this trend around (it's really too late), so for all intents and purposes Firewire is soon to be "running on empty."

There is also the issue of product cost. Today, partly as a result of its limited market share Firewire is just more expensive than USB 2.0. Also, if Apple really wants another "hit" consumer product it should work on both Macs and PCs and USB 2.0 is significantly more common on PCs than is Firewire (and if you exclude the iLink or non-bus-power versions of Firewire then the disparity becomes even greater).

Here is my prediction, in another three years you won't be able to find consumer-targeted, Firewire-based products (except, perhaps, for "old," legacy-style DV cameras). I don't know how long it will be before Apple stops putting Firewire in their Mac (computer) products, but that may also happen within the next five years. True, three to five years is a long time in the computer industry, and there is still time to market Firewire products, but I suspect that they will represent a dying breed.

I think you might be forgetting some of the things that help firewire out, such as the ability to bypass the cpu for device operation. And many of those SCSI macs probably won't run garageband well, other than upgraded ones.

[frequeniquity]

Taken from engadget.com
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000790021529/

More evidence that Apple is indeed releasing a FireWire/USB breakout box. Earlier we speculated along with many others that Apple is developing a FireWire audio interface for GarageBand codenamed “Asteroid” or “Q97”. The breakout box will include multiple audio inputs, including two XLR microphone inputs. And now suddenly we’re reminded that a little while ago Apple bought a company called eMagic which makes a sub-$200 breakout box for Macs and PCs. Exactly.

[Surreal]

has anyone used the M-audio omnistudio?

i am looking for an interface with onboard processing (not just mixing...i use reason and would like to offload cpu usage)

i knwo that the mbox is typically suggested...i just want to hear other options as pro tools is overkill in my opinion...at least right now.

i REALLY want a firewire interface...as i think that i would be able to get higher quality recording done. (my headphones have better specs than even the mboxes ins...avoidable?)

[JFreak]

I sense trouble coming down the road for Digidesign and Protools.

not a chance :) you haven't ever really heard the audio quality of a pro tools system, have you? the mbox has never ever been primary product for digidesign, but only a nice portable on-location recording device that existing customers have requested. granted, there are a lot of mbox-only protools users, but that's not digidesign's priority. and even less is the competition, as there is really no comparison in quality.

if apple releases a two-channel audio interface, it's not a mbox killer and not a protools killer. it's a consumer audio device that is cheap and is supposed to have "decent" quality, in comparison to focusrite preamps in mbox which are really "good" quality even compared to other studio grade gear.

the apple audio interface should have:
- firewire connection
- 2 "decent" quality preamps with phantom/pad/lo-cut/phase
- 2 line inputs (with both balanced trs and unbalanced rca connectors as this is a consumer device)
- 2 insert points
- spdif i/o
- midi i/o
- price point of $149 maxx (or $199 with a jam pack included)

most probably the device is only going to stream 2 channels in and 2 channels out as mbox does, but if apple allows individual streams to each i/o, that'd rock. for that price even i would be almost forced to buy one...

(but remember... that isn't very cheap price even compared to mbox. you don't get protools with it, and garageband is free already. you get what you pay for, folks.)

[JFreak]

if ANYBODY is going to be able to take away from digi, its presonus. they're the only ones remotely capable.

i agree. and i happen to own a presonus digimax lt and a presonus hp4 ;) they build quality stuff...

[JFreak]

Screw garageband!

no way! if apple implemented proper REWIRE support (being able to rewire garageband stuff INTO protools), then it'd rock my world. garageband is good in what it does, but it's definetely not a protools killer.

[JFreak]

Can a FW port really deliver phantom power? We're talking 48V here.

yes. firewire can power up a small hard drive, so it can definetely drive a microphone. voltages can be transformed with little electronics, it's no biggie.

[JFreak]

Let's not jump to conclusions here .. Sure, USB 1.1 is enough for one stream of 44khz to 96khz audio in 16 to 24 bits. For two aswell, no problem. But after that, you have to start cutting quality for it to fit. Audio requires _a lot_ of bandwidth, and that's a fact.

fact#1: usb is theoretically 11Mbps
fact#2: audio bandwidth can be calculated

let's take 24bit/44.1kHz audio for example, as that is today the standard in semi-pro sessions. that kind of audio takes exactly 24bits*44100samples/second => 1.01Mbits per second per channel, so in theory usb1 can take ten channels of such audio. that is five in, five out.

but unfortunately, that's only theory. usb has not been designed in real-time applications in mind, and is seriously lacking in being able to support such bandwidth without sample drops. you would have to be extremely lucky to have 4in-4out without errors, and that's the only reason why the mbox only allows 2in-2out. RELIABILITY, my friends, that's the most important feature in pro audio gear.

[AlanAudio]

the apple audio interface should have:
- firewire connection
- 2 "decent" quality preamps with phantom/pad/lo-cut/phase
- 2 line inputs (with both balanced trs and unbalanced rca connectors as this is a consumer device)
- 2 insert points
- spdif i/o
- midi i/o
- price point of $149 maxx (or $199 with a jam pack included)


I think your spec is wide of the mark for an Apple product aimed at consumers.

The FireWire connection is assumed and Apple are unlikely to feature a pre-amp that isn't pretty good. Phantom power has already been discussed and is expected to be on offer, so we can certainly agree there.

Lo cut and phase are both functions that can be fulfilled in software very easily, so I don't see the need for hardware to do that.

It doesn't need phono inputs as any user wanting to use one can get a couple of very cheap phono to mono jack converters and they will plug straight into the XLR/trs combo sockets and do the unbalanced conversion too. Combo sockets make sense as it allows the use of both a microphone or guitar, the two most likely input devices.

Insert points are also inappropriate as most processing can now be done as a software plug-in, so there's no need for external processing hardware at a consumer level. Anybody needing those features would need a more flexible audio interface anyway.

spdif would be very desirable, but initial reports suggest that it won't be included. I could see some sense in having an analogue Asteroid and a different digital one, but a dual function one would suit my needs better.

I don't think that MIDI will be included, but do have a hunch that this could be the device that makes mLAN a mainstream technology. See my earlier explanation for more details about that.

Don't forget that Apple universally make devices which are elegant and simple-looking. The very essence of Apple design is to strip away all that isn't needed and then to refine what remains to the highest degree possible.

[Mark W. Lewis]

This is outside my area for sure... what are examples of how a breakout box like this would make GarageBand more useful? What does this do more easily than other methods? Just OS integration? (Not to sneeze at that. Or maybe a massively lower price would be enough :D )

And I know the rumored specs are prelimary... but wouldn't more inputs (like optical) be important? Are those big plugs common for consumers? (But maybe this is "prosumer," not consumer.)

Hmmm, lemme see if I can summarize, as I have been dealing with the exact issues that would be dealt with in this box.

(NOTE that everything below is simplification. An unfortunate circumstance in discussing audio is how there are exceptions to virtually anything you could possibly write in short form and the technical details on most of this stuff is both long and tedious. If you wanna, you can find it online. Get ready for printing dozens of pages and many nights falling asleep reading them.)

A. Junk microphones require no external power source. The are DYNAMIC which means that they operate with the small amount of signal actually generated by the physical action of the diaphram in the microphone. Better microphones are CONDENSOR, which (for the most part) require Phantom power. Power is sent through the XLR connector (the large 3 pin connector) to energize the microphone. The benefit is a stronger signal coming out of the microphone with dramatically less "noise" or unwanted junk signal.

With a cheap dynamic mic, usually the GAIN (amplification) of the signal is adjusted to provide a usable recording level, resulting in lots of noise as you are also amplifying everything including the unwanted stuff, like line noise picked up from nearby electrical devices, like power bricks or motors. It is like amplifying a whisper in a normal room; unheard room sounds become annoyingly loud.

With a quality mic (condensor) the original signal is louder and cleaner coming from the source (whatever you are recording) producing better results right out of the gate. A decent condensor mic is not expensive and a very nice one can be had for 150 dollars and up. Incidentally, if you want to see possibly the best microphone made in America, check out www.telefunkenusa.com to read about a company that produces exact reproductions of the most beloved microphone, maybe, in history. The original mics are now worth about 20k each on the open market and the new versions start at 6 grand. The website is very interesting and has a lot of information on it about how the company came about and technical details about this "uber-mic." Cool to read even for non-audio people.

Note that some better headset mics, while technically condensor, don't require phantom power. The small size of their diaphram allows the manufacturer to "pre-energize" the mic at the factory and it lasts the life of the microphone.

The short of it is; better signal at the start guarantees better quality down the line, in any case.

2. USB can be problematic for audio input, although it is usable. One big problem is "latency," a delay that occurs as the signal is encoded by the "box" and sent through the USB port. It means that if you are playing an instrument or singing and listening to the signal at the computer, it isn't realtime, but slightly delayed, which can create timing problems in performance and is, at the least, a pain. Usually, because of this, you monitor the sound with headphones somewhere else up the line, like at the USB box before it encodes it and sends it through the port. That will give you a realtime signal and not the "talk-radio-echo" effect you might hear otherwise. The slower the bus, the more compression the "box" has to do, the greater the latency. USB 1 is slow. Also the bus is shared among all devices.

Also, the USB port is only marginally suited to handle audio. Most USB equipment, like hubs, expect all the information to be in small chunks. Streaming data, like audio creates, can throw it all for a loop. Griffin recommends plugging directly into the machine because if you go through a hub, IT MAY NOT WORK. Their recommendation is not made lightly. Griffin makes a hub themselves that supports USB audio signals, if you are port-short. They sell it at their web site. It is not a gimmick, it is a solution to a serious problem with using standard USB hookup logic with an audio streaming device. Firewire would work better for this, I would have to imagine.

3. Mini-plugs suck No kidding! Mini-plugs are awful. They are delicate, they are small, they tend to be mechanically cheap. They often make poor contact internally, they wear out really quickly and get noisy and one false move with a device, headphone or microphone, can pull the wire right off the plug or bend it to the point of damage. As Bart once said, they both suck and blow. They were created for lightweight portable devices and for that they are fine. Honestly, even there, there should be a new standard, in my opinion. A $600 dollar iPod with a 39 cent headphone port is laughable. The fact that it works at all is surprising to me. I would guess a lot of replacement headphones are sold. (I am not an iPod user.)

4. Most audio-only companies are slow to create and update drivers, especially for cheap devices. For example, I own a two USB audio input devices that Apple sell at their stores (they are mentioned above). Final Cut Pro won't run when the drivers for one of the boxes are present in the operating system. HUH? What is the deal with THAT? The company doesn't seem to be in a hurry to fix it, remaining one large step behind the operating system updates and application updates. For them, it is nothing but an expense. After all, you already bought the box, they got the profit and you would expect the driver update for free. Not high on their "to-do" list, I guess. The second box never worked right. I think it is poorly engineered. The company has directions from technical support on how to "whack" the USB bus using System Profiler so, maybe, you can get it working again when it just stops. Then again, you might just have to restart. ARRRRGH. So both sit, unplugged, on a shelf. Griffin's USB interface (Powerwave), on the other hand, works with the native Apple drivers and create no conflicts (at least for me).(GRIFFIN=Good people.) At the moment it works perfectly, as advertised. Lesson: don't expect a company making $1000 audio boxes to worry too much about the software for a $99 dollar box. The response will probably be underwhelming at best.

5. According to the rumored specs, optical i/o is included. Makes sense as Apple is starting to include optical connectors on their machines.

6. Native Firewire audio drivers in the operating system won't just make this box possible but will allow third parties to create new products using those drivers. I expect a minor flood of Firewire interfaces to follow this product to market, and the more the merrier.

I'm ready to plug in tomorrow, if Apple delivers as promised.

[Mark W. Lewis]

As one example, the Firewire interface, although common in "pro" audio/video gear, just seems out of place. In fact, IMO, it's probably time for everyone at Apple to recognize that Firewire is essentially "dead" in the consumer space. Sure, it will continue for a few more years in DV cameras but that's about it. I suspect that it won't be too long before Firewire is even dropped from the iPod.

Second, it seems like this product would have a very small market potential, being that it would have a limited appeal within an already small group (i.e. the universe of Mac users).

Lastly, it competes directly with third-party products that are already well established, from companies widely known in the prosumer and professional markets.

Therefore I say on this product, not likely (at least not under the Apple logo). It's also possible that this was just an prototype product, something that will never see the light of day, and that it is just a too-long-saved leftover from Emagic.


I disagree completely on a couple of points.

I am seeing more Firewire devices introduced, not less. I just checked on camcorders. Number of DV camcorders (even the cheapest ones) that had Firewire: ALL. Number with USB video transfer:NONE. Firewire works better with "big data" and I don't see i/o data getting smaller, quite the opposite. And the cost differences between USB2 and 1394 devices has shrunk in the past couple years, substantially.

Those "well-established" audio companies do a crappy job creating products for non-professional audio users. Typically they don't care very much. The products are poorly integrated with other functions of the computer. They are hard to use, often. Also buggy and flaky. Their attitude is "Hey, we make REAL audio equipment. If you want to dance, we'll name the tune." I am personally tired of it. They can probably make a sub-100 dollar Firewire input box, but I remain convinced that it will probably p*ss me off as much as the two useless USB audio boxes that I bought from "established audio companies" now gathering dust on my shelf due to their horrible performance and poor software support. Let them learn how to create a consumer product from a company that knows how. Maybe they will become competent at it, for a change. Bitter? $300 dollars worth, so far.

You say "not likely?" I say "almost a certainty." The logic is infallible (no pun intended.)

[AidenShaw]

I am seeing more Firewire devices introduced, not less. I just checked on camcorders.

Well, camcorders, hmmm....

How about computer peripherals, like disks?

USB 2.0 - but usually you can find a USB+1394 model for $30 to $40 more.

1394 and DV go together, for sure.

But 1394 digital cameras - not a growth area.

How about scanners with 1394? Fewer and fewer - 1394 is becoming the SCSI interface replacement - just a few higher end relics have it.

USB 2.0 really is "good enough" for most non-DV products....

[JesterJJZ]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that you can't daisychain usb? :D

[Ultimatetone]

Despite my recent PC hardware purchases, I am a big Apple fan.
I am just waiting to see where Apple goes 'CPU-wise'
in the next year or so.

Back to the 'Firewire Interface' topic...

The ASUS P5AD2-E Premium Motherboard (http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket775/p5ad2-e-p/overview.HTM) that I recently
ordered features one 1394a and two 1394b ports.

______________________________

I saw that t.c. electronic was mentioned in an earlier post.
tc applied technologies division (http://www.tctechnologies.tc) (TCAT) now has optimized new versions
of its technology to achieve breakthroughs in cost and
quality of consumer digital audio solutions.

One of which is the 1394B IEC 61883-6 "timing precise" audio streamer.
This technology solves the problem of reconstructing
the audio (and video) samples to the original timing of the source

DICE II (http://www.tctechnologies.tc/products.htm) is a monolithic CMOS ASIC capable of receiving and transmitting
up to 96 channels of audio data in accordance with the IEEE 1394 standard.

DICE II also functions as a cross bridge switch between any
combination of AES3, ADAT®, TDIF, ADC and DAC ports.

The new DICE II technology simplifies the interface to IEEE 1394
and other popular digital audio formats, while it maximizes
the clocking accuracy of audio samples.

______________________________

With the Aug. '04 announcement of AVID/Digidesign's aquisition of M-Audio (http://www.midiman.com/index.php?do=media.new&ID=503e85ec37f1003524a4455fcfb32b1f)
I am looking forward to some new 'interfaces' to surface soon (Winter NAMM/Jan 2005?)

______________________________

I found this comparision of 15 External Hard Drive Enclosures and Adapters (http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/20041206/index.html)
with USB 1.1/2.0, 1394a/b, and SATA interfaces informative.


Ultimatetone

[Mike Teezie]

If they do introduce some for of breakout box, I wonder who Steve will get to demo it?

U2?

:D

[relimw]

AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=756) claims to have knowledge of a new audio interface for GarageBand users in the coming months.
Hmm, wonder if this is the Ultrabeat (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=p7vphl.15.27)

[snoid]

Something to think about out:

http://www.studio2f.com/misc/2005/01/12mac_mini_less_is_more.php

Asteriod wasn't releaase yesterday. The lawsuits are still on... Maybe there's much more to Asteriod than just GarageBand. Maybe a killer accessory for the Mini? That would rock (pun intended).

[mcmav37]

Maybe there's much more to Asteriod than just GarageBand. Maybe a killer accessory for the Mini? That would rock (pun intended).

That article raises some very interesting possiblities. I think it would be totally awesome and would be extremely well-received. I can't wait to see what else Apple has planned.

[Mike Teezie]

I'm waiting with credit card in hand for Asteroid.

Oh, let this rumor be true!!!

[logicat2001]

Hmm, wonder if this is the Ultrabeat (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=p7vphl.15.27)

Ultrabeat is completely unrelated to any future product. It already exists and has already been released.

Ultrabeat (http://www.apple.com/logic/ultrabeat.html) is a software plug-in that is included in Logic Pro 7 (http://www.apple.com/logic/).

Best,
Logicat

[freebird]

I'm waiting with credit card in hand for Asteroid.

Oh, let this rumor be true!!!

Yes, me too.

Price <$150, this thing would dominate, at least for me.
I want midi i/o, 2-3 channels of audio in, a headphone port that I don't have to stoop down to plug into, and external audio processing to offload processing load from my pitifully weak processor.

Basically, I want this: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AudiophileUSB-main.html

Plus firewire (less latency, bus powered, much better for audio)

I have no idea when they'll release it, if at all. In a few weeks wouldn't make sense, because it would be better to show it off at Macworld. Of course, there isn't much to show off - it's just a box. I can't imagine them launching it without some sort of event. The only events I can foresee is the iLife/iWork launch a week from this Friday, the Tiger launch, and WWDC.

ThinkSecret says WWDC (though they're not sure), but I can't wait until then, and I see no reason why they would release a consumer, iLife device, at a developer's conference...
People will want to take advantage of the new Garageband capabilities - Apple better capitalize.


So possible dates are:
Friday after this Friday (unlikely, but possible)
With Powerbooks bump in non-event (unlikely but more possible)
Tiger Launch (increasingly plausible)
WWDC (by then it'll be too late)

[logicat2001]

So possible dates are

NAMM starts in about a week.

[wdlove]

With Apple you just never know, they have their own time table. They have a broad stretch of time from now till WWDC. It seems that so many things are waiting for Tiger.

[agentmouthwash]

when is the next WWDC?

[wdlove]

when is the next WWDC?

The conference will be located in San Francisco. Couldn't find the exact date, but the usual date is at the end of June.

[freebird]

With Apple you just never know, they have their own time table. They have a broad stretch of time from now till WWDC. It seems that so many things are waiting for Tiger.

I dunno, it seems as though it would work fine in the current version of Panther. For example, in 10.3.7 testing, Think Secret said this: "With 7S206, Apple is calling on developers to test graphics and OpenGL intensive applications, especially games, as well as FireWire audio devices and printing."

There is no mention of Firewire audio in what Appleinsider said of 10.3.8. Seems to me 10.3.7 added support for this device, but ... it ain't here.

[bunkre]

yes. firewire can power up a small hard drive, so it can definetely drive a microphone. voltages can be transformed with little electronics, it's no biggie.

mBox (USB) uses fantom power with no problems.