Top 7 Reasons People Quit Linux

[Pika]

Today from PCWorld: http://www.pcworld.com/article/164205/why_people_quit_linux.html

Some guy wrote a list of the Top 7 Reasons People Quit Linux. Personally, I think that lists like this are, by themselves, one of the reason people quit Linux. We have a great deal of readers that are Linux users and we’ve even spent some time with Linux ourselves. We find that people usually respond to Linux help better when people aren’t making fun of you the whole way. OMG!!! Really? Yup.

The wording in that alone sums up what many people have found in the linux community or lack there of. You are in insider or a NOOB, ubuntu forums and a FEW other placed are tolerant of non linux users asking simple questions but it seems like few.

Windows and Mac OS are designed for Desktop use, Linux is missing the design part, it is a collection of projects that provide similar desktop functions to Windows and Mac OS but hardly offer a unified desktop experience.

I admit Ubuntu is trying really hard to glue those parts together and provide a unified experience, along with some other distos.

I keep TRYING linux as a desktop OS every few years and always find it lacking, it is a great server and EXPERT OS, but not a average user desktop.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I completely agree. I stopped reading after the second point, because I hate when people write like everyone in the world is an idiot other than themselves.

[Pika]

Now this is the way (http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?news=MzkzMjUsLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdCwsLDE=) you discuss Linux shortcomings in a positive and productive manner. This guy does a great job cutting through the BS and giving a great presentation that everyone can understand…even when he was having problems of his own during the presentation.

[CarlisleUnited]

I never used to see Linux as a viable alternative OS but after switching to OS X i have seen the light and now have it running as my main OS on windows

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I never used to see Linux as a viable alternative OS but after switching to OS X i have seen the light and now have it running as my main OS on windows
You've been running your main OS on Windows???? :confused:
What does that even mean?

[dsnort]

Meh, I'm running Eeebuntu on an Eee PC, it's alright. It's stable, the desktop is easy to learn and use, has some great animations, lots of customization you can do.

Plus, it has a lot of apps available. Most apps you will ever need are in the Synaptic Package Manager, just check the box beside the app you want, and then click Apply Changes, go grab a cup of coffee while everything downloads and installs. Simple.

Personally, I think they've done a bang up job for a bunch of volunteers.

Problem is.....

Eventually you'll find something you want to do with Linux that can't be done without opening a Terminal and slinging bash commands around the country side. In my case, it was an app I wanted to run that wasn't available through package manager. When I printed out the installation instructions, they were almost two pages long, size 14 font, single spaced. I got halfway through the first page and found no less than 8 procedures I was going to have to research to get done. I gave up.

I like it for my little eeeper, as a media player/ light document worker it's great.

[sushi]

Up front, I think that Ubuntu is one of the best Linux out there available for the desktop.

I completely agree. I stopped reading after the second point, because I hate when people write like everyone in the world is an idiot other than themselves.
Agree.

I read the whole article and his tone remained the same.

Now this is the way (http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?news=MzkzMjUsLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdCwsLDE=) you discuss Linux shortcomings in a positive and productive manner. This guy does a great job cutting through the BS and giving a great presentation that everyone can understand…even when he was having problems of his own during the presentation.
Thanks for the link. Interesting presentation.

I never used to see Linux as a viable alternative OS but after switching to OS X i have seen the light and now have it running as my main OS on windows
:confused:

[elppa]

I short: People don't use Linux because they're too stupid to use it, unlike me.

I like this bit:

The solution is simple: If you need to use a particular industrial tool for your work, then you should keep using it. That means you'll have to keep using Windows. It's no big deal.

The Mac has the big two - Adobe and Microsoft as well.

But what people with this complaint always do is make a spurious argument about usability – that wonderfully nebulous term that means different things to different people. “Linux just isn't as usable as Windows or OS X,” they'll say. When asked to backup their complaint with evidence, they don't bother to reply.

While we're busy generalising - this is a typical Linux / open source advocate's viewpoint and it is plain wrong: whilst usability and user experience are slightly more abstract concepts, they can still all be studied and discussed.

Yes usability can mean different things to different people, but there are plenty of good examples to learn from a bad examples to critique and learn from.

When comparing systems Linux buffs typically have plenty to say (and in some cases are pretty vocal) about how OS X is dummed down or lacking certain features. The fact they completely miss is that by providing extra features for the sake of providing extra features you add clutter to the interface, complication and confusion. Good design is about knowing what to leave out - just because you can put something in, doesn't mean you should.

Its all well and good having the most feature rich software in the world, but if no one can figure out how to use it, then it is no good. This is amplified when looking in the consumer space. This is very different to business software because people aren't paid to use it. They have a choice. Not only should the software be fairly simple to pick up, it should also reward the user and give them a fun and elegant experience. This is because you are not just competing with other software, you are competing for that that user's attention and time.

Making books and calendars and other keepsakes iPhoto is great fun. Given the choice of using some of the Linux equivalents for this stuff, most people would rather mow the lawn, do the ironing or sort out the garage. In short - other stuff.

One of the best example can be seen between the GIMP and Pixelmator. Pixelmator is a good example because it couldn't be written by two people in such a small space of time on any other platform because no other platform has as sophisticated development frameworks as Mac OS X. Whilst GIMP advocates claim the GIMP is reaching feature parity with Photoshop, it could equally be claimed that Pixelmator has got close to fetaure parity with the GIMP in a dramatically shorter time frame.

But look at the differences in approaches to UI. It is night and day. That's not to say Pixelmator is perfect, far from it.

So there's your evidence - and I have bothered to reply.

[Sehnsucht]

I have Fedora KDE, Red Hat and Ubuntu installed on my Mac along with OS X. It's all been very interesting and I like seeing what all is out there, but I can definitely see why Linux, even the Mac-ed up, "lite" versions like Eeebuntu will probably never catch on. It's just finicky and has a mind of its own. Couple that with the fact that Linux does not have the killer apps and killer support that Mac OS X does. The applications I use on Linux are: Firefox, Thunderbird, Blender, and GIMP, nothing that I can't also do on OS X. (Also, I was never able to locate an audio driver for Fedora, grrrr.) :rolleyes:

Oh and did I mention that a large majority of the Linux community is a clusterf**k of sarcastic-as-hell douchebags. The most arrogant Apple fanboy on MacRumors is several orders of magnitude beneath even the tamest Linux fanboy on the International Scale of Douchiness. Ugh! :mad: I've lost count of the number of times I've been flamed to death on Linux forums once the trolls figure out I have Linux installed on a Mac, as if I'm defiling their precious open-source OS by installing it on an evil Apple computer. So ****** them. </rant>

So there you have Sehnsucht's $0.02. :D

[dontwalkhand]

I completely agree. I stopped reading after the second point, because I hate when people write like everyone in the world is an idiot other than themselves.

Isn't that how they are trained to write their articles? I thought they are supposed to write things at a 6th grade, or below level.

[r.j.s]

Isn't that how they are trained to write their articles? I thought they are supposed to write things at a 6th grade, or below level.

8th grade, but this article treats the non-Linux user like they are somehow retarded.

[three]

I have used many Linux distributions, and I like them but there is just one reason why I don't use it anymore. Getting Windows and Mac applications to work can sometimes be a pain. I know there are open source alternatives but those might not have the same features.

[sushi]

I have Fedora KDE, Red Hat and Ubuntu installed on my Mac along with OS X.
Installed directly, or via VMware/Parallels? If directly, would you share how you did it.

I use Ubuntu via VMware and it seems okay. I've installed it, a prior version, on my PC. Found liked it via WMware.

Oh and did I mention that a large majority of the Linux community is a clusterf**k of sarcastic-as-hell douchebags. The most arrogant Apple fanboy on MacRumors is several orders of magnitude beneath even the tamest Linux fanboy on the International Scale of Douchiness. Ugh! :mad: I've lost count of the number of times I've been flamed to death on Linux forums once the trolls figure out I have Linux installed on a Mac, as if I'm defiling their precious open-source OS by installing it on an evil Apple computer. So ****** them. </rant>
This is what is frustrating, or maybe exasperating is a better term, to me about the Linux community.

Back in the 70's and 80's there was a sense of exploration of different systems. Everyone seemed okay with different systems and it was fun to try them out and choose what you liked.

Today there seems to be too much fanboyism for the big three OS'es. It's to the point you can't ask a simple question without getting flamed most of the time. Guess the trolls have been part of the cause for this.

this article treats the non-Linux user like they are somehow retarded.
Completely agree.

Unfortunately this point of view only serves to promote the fanboyism of the various OS'es rather than the sharing of ideas to make them all better.

The link above with the "Linux Sucks" video is good. The Linux community has it's issues and must work through them just like the Windows and Mac communities. Personally, i like using the tool that lets me get the job done the most effective way.

[Sehnsucht]

Installed directly, or via VMware/Parallels? If directly, would you share how you did it.

Partitioned using Disk Utility, then installed to each respective partition by booting from a Live CD and using each distro's "Install to Hard Drive" utility. I restart the computer and hold down Option to select which partition to boot from. :cool:

Back in the 70's and 80's there was a sense of exploration of different systems. Everyone seemed okay with different systems and it was fun to try them out and choose what you liked.

Today there seems to be too much fanboyism for the big three OS'es. It's to the point you can't ask a simple question without getting flamed most of the time. Guess the trolls have been part of the cause for this.

I blame PC gaming in part. Before modern, graphics-intensive PC gaming took off, the Windows fanboys only had the "Mine's cheaper" card to deal. Now they've got the "I can play games" card too, making PC games the Windows "killer app." :rolleyes: Plus, back in the 80's and early 90's, there was a glorious clusterf**k of platforms available. There was, in addition to Mac OS X and Windows...Amiga OS, RISC OS, Linux, NeXTSTEP, BeOS, SunOS, IRIX, etc., etc., etc...now all but a few of those have disappeared. We now have a deplorable "two-party system" that go out of their way to rip each other's heads off. :rolleyes:

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Isn't that how they are trained to write their articles? I thought they are supposed to write things at a 6th grade, or below level.

So you didn't read the article, did you?

[sushi]

Partitioned using Disk Utility, then installed to each respective partition by booting from a Live CD and using each distro's "Install to Hard Drive" utility. I restart the computer and hold down Option to select which partition to boot from. :cool:
Thanks.

I assume that you used the GUID partition map.

Which format option did you use for each Linux partition?

Did you install Windows in one of those partitions as well?

[CarlisleUnited]

You've been running your main OS on Windows???? :confused:
What does that even mean?

Apologies hadn't slept all night so wasn't really thinking straight, what i tried to say was that I had always used Windows as my main OS and just couldn't get used to running Linux because I missed programs I used on Windows. Since then I bought a MacBook and after having used OS X I now see that there are plenty of alternatives for Windows programs and I am now using Linux as my main OS on my desktop as a result of that.

[tubbymac]

The reason I keep quitting Linux on the desktop is that when I buy a new machine, whether it's a PC or an Apple, it's pretty much a given that the hardware on the machine comes with the necessary drivers to run properly, as long as Windows or OSX came with it. You can turn the machine on and it's good to go, except for any trialware/bloatware.

With Linux it's still a cross your fingers type of deal. You hope that most of your hardware will work. Sometimes it does and other times you waste a lot of time searching forums on how to get something working. Linux is great if you like to tinker around, but not many people want to spend so much time fixing their computer. Some of us just want to use our computer.

[spork183]

With Linux it's still a cross your fingers type of deal. You hope that most of your hardware will work. Sometimes it does and other times you waste a lot of time searching forums on how to get something working. Linux is great if you like to tinker around, but not many people want to spend so much time fixing their computer. Some of us just want to use our computer.

Booted into Ubuntu this morning. liked what I saw. Attempted to install to external usb. Mistake. now my HD refuses to boot. I'll have to reformat and clone back (tg for backups). Point is, I don't mind learning a new interface, but when it screws with my machine...

Maybe since I have to wipe the drive anyway, I'll partition the internal for ubuntu, but I'm pretty annoyed at the moment, and not convinced it will be stable.

I did a load of searching and discovered many of the "flame" type posts when people ask uninformed questions. Enough so I didn't post, just read until I figured it out...:mad:

[bashveank]

Agreed, the reason I "quit" Linux after a couple years of use and switched to the Mac was the Linux community. The most vocal members of the Linux community are, sadly snobby elitists.

[Sehnsucht]

Which format option did you use for each Linux partition?

ext3.

Did you install Windows in one of those partitions as well?

Nope. :D At one point, I considered it but changed my mind in a hurry when I found out that installing Vista 64 on any Mac that isn't a Mac Pro is a good way to blow your CPU. :eek: Plus, Vista is just a huge bull in a very tiny china shop...I might get Windows 7, MAYBE. :D

[tubbymac]

The most vocal members of the Linux community are, sadly snobby elitists.

That's not much different from the most vocal Apple fanboys, though.

[sushi]

ext3.
Cool. Thanks.

Nope. :D At one point, I considered it but changed my mind in a hurry when I found out that installing Vista 64 on any Mac that isn't a Mac Pro is a good way to blow your CPU. :eek: Plus, Vista is just a huge bull in a very tiny china shop...I might get Windows 7, MAYBE. :D
From what I am hearing, Windows 7 will be good and is much better than Vista -- which IMHO wouldn't take much. Windows XP is still good for basic things.

[mkrishnan]

Windows XP is still good for basic things.

There aren't that many non-basic things for which it is not good. :p

I hereby submit my two reasons people leave Linux.

1) It doesn't meet their needs.

2) Certain elements of the Linux community (who desire a greater desktop presence of Linux) insist that Linux's failure to achieve such results wholly from ignorance on the part of end users and in no way from any limitation of Linux or Linux distributions.

This being typed from Jaunty Jackalope, while my XP/SP3 box updates iTunes. ;) (And actually, I also used Tiger today, as I had left my iMac ripping Twilight into an MP4 last night when I left to go out, and I just got back, and copied it over to the EeeBox, which has no DVD player, and onto the iPhone).

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I completely agree. I stopped reading after the second point, because I hate when people write like everyone in the world is an idiot other than themselves.

Yes, the writer seems to be apologizing for these people being idiots in his eyes for quitting the premier wunderbar operating system of the past decade that no one seems to actually give a crap about. I've used Linux on and off for the past ten years. I've spent hundreds of hours learning every little nuance of the operating system so that I would NOT fall into his category number 2 complaint.

I *DO* know how to fix most things in Linux including things that have since been fixed by GUI advances from the early years, etc. I'm afraid that's no excuse for an operating system STILL having huge limitations 12 years after I first tried it. 12 years is a LONG LONG time (we're talking WindowsME era through all of XP's LONG years of existence well into years of Vista here). The primary problem for Linux is quite simple. It's not that developers don't have the right idea. An open, free operating system is a GREAT idea in general. The problem is the organizational aspects (basically aside from a little bit of general kernel consensus from Linus Torvalds, there is NONE; people just make whatever new 'standards' that they want which no one then uses or which is fought over with a half dozen competing 'standards', none of which will talk to the other or play nice with the other and then people wonder why after 12 years, so little has been really accomplished. Linux is STILL not as usable as Windows98 in terms of ease-of-use, IMO. It's surely nowhere NEAR XP levels (although Linux elitists will beat you over the head that it is all day long and how great Ubuntu is, etc., which an average PC user can tell you is total bunk, especially when compared to moving to OS X, which is much much EASIER to use than XP even).

Linux NEEDS BADLY someone to take the reigns and force a basic level unified interface and way of doing things. Having 6 package managers and having to maintain software repositories for every major flavor of Linux (that doesn't force you to compile your own...something which elitists will argue is the BEST way for everyone anyway..hahaha; it's BSD's standard method of doing things, after all) is just plain ridiculous in 2009. How could they EVER hope to get mainstream commercial software support for Linux when they want commercial developers to jump through hoops and support a half dozen distributions and maybe throw in source code support for the rest while they're at it??? IT'S UTTERLY LAUGHABLE. I believe only Linus Torvalds could possibly hope to unify Linux and he seems quite satisfied to leave it as the gigantic hodge podge that it still is today. Thus, it's unlikely that even ten years from now that anything will change in that regard unless everyone suddenly all agrees to only use one major distribution. Even then, you'd still have Kubuntu versus Ubuntu in-fighting even within their own camp. It's ridiculous.

It's not bad that there is a lot of choices. It's bad that those choices don't really get along with each other. Even if you install libraries for everything (you almost have to or you limit what software you can run), you'll still find that unless you find a theme that exists on both KDE and Gnome (heaven forbid something designed for older libraries or more minor less used interfaces) you won't get the same themed windows across programs. It'll literally look like you're trying to run Mac and Windows at the same time or something equivalent. That's not unified. While it may be good for the programmers, it's not good for the users. It's the user who should be able to choose what his desktop looks like, not the programmers. But this cannot happen if you have a half dozen standards floating around that can't even communicate with each other. If they had an underlying universal theme manager that worked with all window managers then it wouldn't matter, but you CANNOT seriously expect different camps who essentially don't like each other (or they'd be working together one ONE interface from the start) to agree on ANYTHING, even if it's for the betterment of their entire operating system.

It might just take someone huge like Adobe to say we're releasing Photoshop ONLY for KDE libraries and ONLY via Debian packages and have other commercial software makers follow suit to create a pseudo-standard within the Linux community. Basically, the commercial side would have to force the issue and get the users to follow suit out of pure frustration. Sometimes, too many choices hamper the growth of a system. And just imagine how far along Linux COULD be if all that wasted duplicate efforts to remake the wheel over and over again had been used to further the entire operating system instead. Linux COULD have been the premier operating system out there five years ago even, but at this rate it never will be. I figure in 5 years it'll reach Win98 status and in 10 XP SP1. Maybe in 20 years it'll be equivalent to OS X 10.2?? But by then where will OS X be?

Finally, you have a very real elitist element of snobby anti-establishment types developing software for Linux and they have this idea that basically equates to "We don't need no stinking commercial software!" and they actually try very very hard to PREVENT such software from ever appearing for Linux. They do this by not allowing their open tools to be used by commercial developers unless those developers release their software under their license, which basically amounts to free open source software, which is completely and totally anti-commercial by its very nature. If you give the source code away, no one will buy it. In fact, the entitlement factor in the Linux Community soars into the stratospheric levels. Why pay for anything? Everything should be free! Yes, except people have to eat and pay their bills and while you may think you deserve to make a living sweeping floors or changing gumballs in a vending machine, you don't seem to think people toiling for hudreds and even tens of thousands of hours on a program deserve even $5 of your money.

I say these things and I love open software. I think things like Photoshop are ridiculously overpriced for the average user who doesn't make a living from it and the cut-down versions absolutely SUCK. But just TRY the Gimp after you've used Photoshop and see how well free software replaces it. The Gimp hasn't change that much in 10 years. Neither has Photoshop in its core areas, really, IMO. But that's neither here nor there because Photoshop got it right 10 years ago. Real time transforms (opposed to Gimp's wire-mesh checkerboard) are worth some real $$$ alone. I've tried to do my pinball playfield editing with the Gimp or my pinball recreation games. It's frustrating as all heck. If you're off by one degree, it'll look like crap, but how can you tell when you cannot see what you're doing? Maybe they've fixed this in the past couple of years, maybe not. I refuse to even try it anymore. The last version I used slowed things down on my old PC and added relatively few usable new features...this after several years of development. No real time transforms. No deal. But many of the open software people will tell you that is IS as good as Photoshop. Yeah, maybe for adjusting the contrast settings.... Then they'll tell you that Photoshop is "specialized" and most people do not need it. Right, I guess I'm not most people and therefore I cannot use Linux. Both Windows and the Mac have "specialized" software (i.e. commercial software). And if you think the Mac has very few games compared to Windows, see what Linux has available outside of Wine (which sorta works for some things but not very well, IMO). It's a desert.


Why don't people use Linux?

#1> Lack of commercial software
#2> It's not anywhere near as intuitive as XP or OS X
#3> It lacks a unified standard which prevents #1 and #2 from ever happening.

It's that simple. And until Linux people get their heads out of the sand and recognize that's Linux's real problem, it'll never be that mainstream success SOME want it to be. Others LIKE it being an "elitist" OS and don't WANT mainstream success. The trouble is even if I liked it being "elitist" (hey who doesn't like to feel special?) I still need to use real software sooner later and so I end up booting into XP or going over to my Mac.

[Eraserhead]

The article is fairly ridiculous IMO.

@ Magnus, interesting rant.

[Heilage]

Ah yes, I found the single point that explains why Linux always will fail consumers in it's current form:

3. I tried Linux but I had to type commands!

You can not have a command line as a standard tool for configuration and installation. As a supplement, it's fine. But as the only option, no. Why?

Because it's in essence unintuitive. It's god-awful, in fact. It fails at it's first word, "sudo". When I have to explain to my father of 55 that he has to type "sudo" to be able to change anything in the system, and it's the only way, he'd look at me like I was an idiot for two minutes, then swing the monitor at my head. Having to remember commands, parameters and syntaxes is why Linux will never go beyond being a small, "funny" system.

For every function, there has to be a button clearly labeled. That is the only way non-nerds will be able to use computers. We learn commands and parameters because we think it's fun. People like my father don't.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

<snip>
I completely agree. The author of the article seemed to suggest that everyone in the world should be just as computer savvy as he. That's ridiculous! Hell --I wouldn't consider myself super computer intelligent, but I installed Ubuntu on my Macbook. I had to use the command line just to get basic things running, and guess what. After a single restart things started to break left and right, first my wobbly Windows stopped working, then my multiple desktops died. I did all sorts of little things to get them *sorta* working again. I never intended to have Ubuntu as my main OS, I only had it to tinker with, but things like that are completely unacceptable in a Desktop OS.

[clevin]

Ah yes, I found the single point that explains why Linux always will fail consumers in it's current form:

You can not have a command line as a standard tool for configuration and installation. As a supplement, it's fine. But as the only option, no. Why?

when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.
Not true. To install drivers you'll often need to use the command line, and even then you'll often need a real understanding of what you're doing as online tutorials usually just take you most of the way there, but you have to finish up.

[Heilage]

when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.

Interesting statement, considering the fact that about a month ago I tried getting all Linux on a couple of computers here (both file server and HTPC) and the command line hell was unbelievable. Also, being a bit of a nerd, having built computers for about seven years, I have not reached the technical level to be able to administrate a Linux-based file server. My Linux-using buddies even agreed to this.

[mkrishnan]

when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.

You didn't ask me, Clev... ;)

But the last time I did sudo on Ubuntu was 9.04 Netbook Remix final install -- which had an extensive issue that made it almost unusable on many computers with Intel GMA, and which required a manual fix. (link (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1130582))

But I think this stuff has gotten better. The number of current / recent systems that require major driver workarounds (e.g. the situation with the EeePC compared to how it was with Ubuntu 7.10 and 8.04) has vastly reduced.

[clevin]

For what I need it for, I didn't experienced necessity of commandline.

Linux does have problem with peripherals, which I never even got the need to try. For a well integrated linux and hardware, it should be a quite pleasant experience.

Yes, If somebody need to do more than average stuff, it will become tougher. But hey, I still can't get my printer work with my MB neither.

I guess I think most people will be fine and will not encounter commandline, with modern versions of linux.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

For what I need it for, I didn't experienced necessity of commandline.

Linux does have problem with peripherals, which I never even got the need to try. For a well integrated linux and hardware, it should be a quite pleasant experience.

Yes, If somebody need to do more than average stuff, it will become tougher. But hey, I still can't get my printer work with my MB neither.

I guess I think most people will be fine and will not encounter commandline, with modern versions of linux.
Installing Drivers for a Macbook should not require the command line...

[Heilage]

But I think this stuff has gotten better. The number of current / recent systems that require major driver workarounds (e.g. the situation with the EeePC compared to how it was with Ubuntu 7.10 and 8.04) has vastly reduced.

Oh, it's gotten loads better. GTK is still butt-ugly (which further proves my theory that genuine programmers/developers wouldn't know pretty if it grew tits and gave them a lapdance), but KDE is pretty beautiful. I must say, however, that if I could use Linux on a professional level, I would. But it's not there quite yet.

Let me just point out that I'm no Linux hater, I just don't think it's the right product for the huge masses for normal computer users. I love tinkering with Linux and learning the ways of the OS, I just can't have that when my deadline is approaching and something doesn't work.

[dsnort]

Oh and did I mention that a large majority of the Linux community is a clusterf**k of sarcastic-as-hell douchebags. The most arrogant Apple fanboy on MacRumors is several orders of magnitude beneath even the tamest Linux fanboy on the International Scale of Douchiness. Ugh! :mad: I've lost count of the number of times I've been flamed to death on Linux forums once the trolls figure out I have Linux installed on a Mac, as if I'm defiling their precious open-source OS by installing it on an evil Apple computer. So ****** them. </rant>

So there you have Sehnsucht's $0.02. :D

I've never had any trouble with anyone being actively nasty on the Linux Forums, just getting someone to answer you. You definitely get the feeling you're beneath their notice. You got people on there posting "Well, I just reinstalled a second kernel on my AMX World Defender laptop using a Zarcon Dekonfabultor script I, heh heh, of course wrote myself. I did misplace a decimal causing a small but not insignificant tear in the time/space continuum; fortunately it was very short lived and didn't instantly end all life as we know it, just caused a few cows in Wisconsin to walk backwards for a few hours! It works great, in fact, if I stick a tin foil antenna out of my mothers basement, where I live, I can actually view pron with so little interference you can almost see their faces!"

I'm pretty sure that guy could have helped me with my Grub Configuration issue if he hadn't been so preoccupied with that tube of hand lotion....

when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.

About a week ago, in Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex.

By the way, Intrebid Ibex? Hardy Heron?

Who the hell comes up with these names?

Is there a Morose Mongoose in the future? A Petulant Panda?

[clevin]

Installing Drivers for a Macbook should not require the command line...
webcam?

anyway, I think apple bares part of the responsibility in this regard, it offers drivers for windows, it shouldn't be difficult for apple to throw out a linux driver...

About a week ago, in Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex.

By the way, Intrebid Ibex? Hardy Heron?

Who the hell comes up with these names?

Is there a Morose Mongoose in the future? A Petulant Panda?
you can suggest that name for sure, I dont know how ubuntu decide on the names, but Im sure community input is part of the procedure.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

when was last time you did a sudo on ubuntu?
why are we describing linux in its old status? They upgrade 2 a year, and they are out of command-line for end users for years.

That's just not true and especially not true of all distributions. Any time something goes wrong (and it will, usually when upgrading or installing new software that didn't come with the installation) you have to fix it yourself and that normally means going into the command line. If you don't know what to do, you're typically screwed. I DO know what to do and it's still annoying as heck. These problems simply don't exist in Windows or OS X and it's especially amusing with OS X since it is based on BSD Unix and yet Unix is made to be completely and utterly transparent. The only time I've ever had to use the command shell in OS X is to change parameters Apple left available to alter, but only in the command line (i.e. you're not "supposed" to be playing with them anyway) but unfortunately, Apple has this idea you should always do things the way they want you to, which is not necessarily the way you might want to (e.g. the Safari 4 beta is a good example with its new tab method forced upon you unless you change the option in a shell window parameter).

That is not to say that Linux hasn't made some great strides in the past 12 years since I first used it, but some things should have been available 10 years ago. Take joystick preference panes as an example. 10 years ago there was a GREAT joystick driver someone made and all my half dozen joysticks actually worked in Linux. But to get them working, I had to do some serious shell work editing (and not all of us like VI and there still isn't a shell text editor as intuitive as the old MS-Dos text editor IMO that doesn't require X to run; I use Pico, but its copy/paste functions pretty much SUCK. When a 1990 Amiga text editor like CygnusED (doesn't require Workbench to be loaded to run) and just as old MS-Dos text editor (shift select text and CTRL-C to copy CTRL-V to paste) run circles around the average Linux shell text editor, well what can you say? Learn VI? No thanks. It's awful.) Now finally, in the past couple of years preference panes have finally started showing up in KDE and Gnome. Some aren't even half bad. But it could have happened 10 years ago easy. I DID bring it up back then and I was told to make it myself if I wanted one. Yeah, OK. Why even bring it up to the developer community if you can just write it yourself and keep it to yourself while you're at it.

I've found most Linux people back then had NO INTEREST in making Linux easier to use for the average person (a few did but they had their hands full with early versions of Gnome and KDE and instead of working together they created opposing systems based on a now extinct licensing issue...of course... it's got to be 100% open or else). Like I said before, most LIKE feeling "elitist" in that regard (as in a "Ha ha, I can get around in Linux and you cannot! Ha ha! You must be stupid and I'm not!" sort of thing). Creating an archaic set of hacker tools to run an operating system (admittedly this originally happened in a time where CLIs were the norm) isn't intelligent. It's more like obtuse in this day an age. Ask anyone that was around for MS-Dos if they actually LIKED it better than using WindowsXP and I don't even mean the absurd IRQ and non-standard driver setups, but just the command line as opposed to a GUI. I'd bet over 99% do not. Sure you can do some things much more efficiently if you know how and can remember all the commands to achieve it plus pipelines, etc. in that environment. You can write a shell script to automate things too. But you shouldn't HAVE to (and yeah AmigaDos has half-arsed in this area too, especially in 1.x versions so you had to know a few things or get something like Diskmaster or Directory Opus (one still wonders why neither Windows or OS X provides dual-pane file management options...it's SO much easier than opening two panes and playing hockey shuffle between them).

So until every little command is replaced with an intuitive GUI equivalent (and better yet more eliminated entirely because there are better ways to do many things), you'll still need the shell at some point and if you've never used one before, it can be quite daunting, especially since most Linux programmers don't document their programs for squat or if they do, they hide the docs for it in some arcane directory somewhere (better have locate working and up-to-date...oh wait that's a shell command too). Whereas the odds of EVER having to use a shell/CLI in Windows or OS X are pretty remote for the average user. I've rarely used a dos prompt in Win98 and maybe once or twice ever in XP. I've used a shell in OS X, but just because I wanted to play around in it and with X ports, etc, not because I ever really had to. It's nice that it's there if you WANT to use it; otherwise you can safely forget about it. That's where Linux needs to get to and it needs to stop having 10 different standards to do something simple. People need to agree one some standard ways of doing things on that platform and move on (even if small groups ignore it and do their own thing). Your goal should be to attract commercial software so Windows can be forgotten about entirely. If you don't care about commercial software, great. But most people do. I only keep Windows around to play games and a few utilities not available in OS X. I'd prefer to get rid of it but neither OS X or Linux will replace Windows for gaming any time soon. OS X may eventually replace it entirely for major applications.

One problem with OS X is software prices are often so much higher than Windows programs, especially with things like old games which never seem to come down in price ever. For example, Jedi Academy is STILL $40-60 on the Mac. The game is OLD and IF you can find it on the PC, it's usually under $10 now. The same is true for Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc. So if you have a newer Intel Mac, you're better off getting a copy of Windows XP and buying the PC versions. They come out sooner, get more updates and the difference in price alone will pay for it in a short amount of time. That's sad, but that's the way it is and it's one of OS X's weak points. If Apple would license DirectX from Microsoft, porting games would be so much simpler and easier it would help drive costs down and release times up and without sacrificing so much performance like Cider does. But getting games for Linux? Have fun there.

I've never had any trouble with anyone being actively nasty on the Linux Forums, just getting someone to answer you. You definitely get the feeling you're beneath their notice. You got people on there posting "Well, I just reinstalled a second kernel on my AMX World Defender laptop using a Zarcon Dekonfabultor script I, heh heh, of course wrote myself. I did misplace a decimal causing a small but not insignificant tear in the time/space continuum; fortunately it was very short lived and didn't instantly end all life as we know it! It works great, in fact, if I stick a tin foil antenna out of my mothers basement, where I live, I can actually view pron with so little interference you can almost see their faces!"

I'm pretty sure that guy could have helped me with my Grub Configuration issue if he hadn't been so preoccupied with that tube of hand lotion....



About a week ago, in Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex.

By the way, Intrebid Ibex? Hardy Heron?

Who the hell comes up with these names?

Is there a Morose Mongoose in the future? A Petulant Panda?

LMAO... :D

[TuffLuffJimmy]

anyway, I think apple bares part of the responsibility in this regard, it offers drivers for windows, it shouldn't be difficult for apple to throw out a linux driver...
That's ridiculous, Clevin. There are ridiculous amounts of Linux distros, many with different kernels that don't support different drivers. Apple would have to write like ten different sets of drivers for all the Linux distros. And for what? So they could have driver support for an OS that isn't supported in bootcamp? Yeah, not going to happen, nor does Apple have even the slightest bit of responsibility to do so.

[clevin]

i think we dont have to goto the realm where some level of tech is needed.

for most people.

web
office
image
media

would be all they need. add/remove software in ubuntu is good enough for most of them.

Of course when users' need are specific and need higher level of system manipulation, it might be difficult if they dont have enough experience with linux. But I think most average users would be taken care of with popular distroes such as ubuntu.

I guess one of the not-stated assumption here is that most people here are not normal, average users, because you guys are actually, mostly, install linux yourselves. For normal users, I think they probably got system pre-installed, that way, they probably will encounter even less problem with peripherals.

i.e., I think linux is now taking care of "non tech savy", as well as "very tech savy" people, but the people in between, "somewhat savy", me included, are not being offered a tool currently. They probably need to improve that, but i think their priority is correct.
That's ridiculous, Clevin. There are ridiculous amounts of Linux distros, many with different kernels that don't support different drivers. Apple would have to write like ten different sets of drivers for all the Linux distros. And for what? So they could have driver support for an OS that isn't supported in bootcamp? Yeah, not going to happen, nor does Apple have even the slightest bit of responsibility to do so.

there are large amount of linux distroes, yes, but I dont think each distroes need a specific driver, I think apple is capable of writing one or two packages to satisfy most of the distroes.

Yes, bootcamp doesn't officially support linux, but that has to be apple's decision.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

i think we dont have to goto the realm where some level of tech is needed.

for most people.

web
office
image
media

would be all they need. add/remove software in ubuntu is good enough for most of them.

Of course when users' need are specific and need higher level of system manipulation, it might be difficult if they dont have enough experience with linux. But I think most average users would be taken care of with popular distroes such as ubuntu.

I guess one of the not-stated assumption here is that most people here are not normal, average users, because you guys are actually, mostly, install linux yourselves. For normal users, I think they probably got system pre-installed, that way, they probably will encounter even less problem with peripherals.

i.e., I think linux is now taking care of "non tech savy", as well as "very tech savy" people, but the people in between, "somewhat savy", me included, are not being offered a tool currently. They probably need to improve that, but i think their priority is correct.

again, this is bull. I needed to use the command line to get my trackpad, iSight, Airport, and video card working and even after getting those things working the bundled virtual desktops stopped working.

[clevin]

again, this is bull. I needed to use the command line to get my trackpad, iSight, Airport, and video card working and even after getting those things working the bundled virtual desktops stopped working.

Its not linux's responsibility to support every piece of hardwares out there. I mean, even windows doesn't support all the hardwares out there, and it needs drivers from hardware producers. are we really expecting linux to support everything out of box? Why it needs commandline to set up those hardwares? because hardware makers didn't provide anything!

This got to be a two way efforts.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Its not linux's responsibility to support every piece of hardwares out there. I mean, even windows doesn't support all the hardwares out there, and it needs drivers from hardware producers. are we really expecting linux to support everything out of box? Why it needs commandline to set up those hardwares? because hardware makers didn't provide anything!
But to the end user it doesn't matter whose responsibility it is! If Linux doesn't work then they'll look elsewhere. How is that so hard for you to understand?

[clevin]

But to the end user it doesn't matter whose responsibility it is! If Linux doesn't work then they'll look elsewhere. How is that so hard for you to understand?
No, I only suggest that linux is doing fine with most end users, some end users are not being taken care of, such as you and some other guys in previous thread. But that should not be taken as a general situation.

[CarlisleUnited]

No, I only suggest that linux is doing fine with most end users, some end users are not being taken care of, such as you and some other guys in previous thread. But that should not be taken as a general situation.

To be honest every single piece of hardware I have ever used with Linux has had native support apart from my iPhone but I believe even that works now aswell.

[Nyan]

What's the difference between Mac OS X and other operating system.

[Pika]

What's the difference between Mac OS X and other operating system.If you need an idiot-proof computer, get a Mac.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

What's the difference between Mac OS X and other operating system.

It's a pretty, easy, powerful UNIX OS.

[sushi]

The author of the article seemed to suggest that everyone in the world should be just as computer savvy as he. That's ridiculous! Hell
Gone are the days of computers as they were.

Now they are commodities -- tools to get your work done. That is how the average consumer looks at them. These days they are not interested in the geek side of installations. They simply want their tool to work.

Is there a Morose Mongoose in the future? A Petulant Panda?
Snort.

There are ridiculous amounts of Linux distros, many with different kernels that don't support different drivers.
Definitely an issue with the different distros.

But to the end user it doesn't matter whose responsibility it is! If Linux doesn't work then they'll look elsewhere. How is that so hard for you to understand?
Exactly.

IMHO, of the Linux OS'es that I've tried, I like Ubuntu the best. Regular updates and you can see the improvement over time. Plus it has an interesting name and logo. :)

Hopefully the community will get behind one or two distributions and push updates accordingly. The current Linux community is too fragmented.

[Insulin Junkie]

If you need an idiot-proof computer, get a Mac.

That's part of the reason I forced my computer illiterate mother to buy a mac as her new computer. She was wondering why XP doesn't run as fast as it once did after 6 (!!) years after never re-installing and never running defrag on the system =O
It took her a while to get used to the mac, but at least she only manages to rack up spam mail nowadays and not tons of viruses too using her computer.

On the topic of Linux... to anyone who uses PySLSK on linux... Does anybody know if PySLSK is as good as the original SLSK (new server) for windows? Because I'm not getting nearly as many results on the mac versions (SSX and Solarseek) as I am on my windows machine. Probably an ignorant question, but I've always wondered why that's so, and if PySLSK under Linux would give me the same results as the new windows version.
And has anybody uses this program on the mac? Seen it's available for OS X too.

[DR_K13]

I switched to Mac from Linux. I ran Linux for the last 7 years after ditching microsoft for good. Everything from Redhat to SLack to Gentoo to Ubuntu to Damn Small . What got me to switch was always having to tweak on stuff. Even with all the new great Distros including Ubuntu , I would have to tweak on stuff to get networking to work, X to work , etc and so on. Apt-get sure helps these days to install software, I remember hunting for packages to fix dependency issues for hours sometimes days! I switched because OSX is like a beautifull distro, everything works and its nice to use my computer to be productive right off the bat instead of tweaking on my OS just to make it work!

That being said, I still run Linux on my eeePC 900A netbook. Nothing out there can touch linux when it comes to efficiency .

Get an old P3 , or even P2 system , install Damn Small Linux on it and watch it fly.