Gas Mileage Savings! Hybrid really worth it?

[waloshin]

- 2008 Dodge Caliber sxt 1.8 (29/35)
- 2010 Honda Insight lx ( 43/45)
- 2008 Honda Fit (28/34)
- 2008 VW Jetta/Golf(22/29)

-2010 Honda Insight( 28,000 cdn)
-2008 Dodge Caliber(18,000 cdn)
-2008 Honda Fit(19,000 cdn)
-2008 VW Jetta/Golf(20,000 cdn)

It seems to me that the Insight Hybrid is not worth it? On average you pay an extra 8,000 - 10,000 more. Would the fuel savings really be that substantial?

[Malfoy]

If you drive a lot and plan on getting rid of the car before the 'hybrid' battery dies.

[waloshin]

If you drive a lot and plan on getting rid of the car before the 'hybrid' battery dies.

Wouldn't it take an average of 15 years or so to brake even. When paying an extra 10,000.

[Scarlet Fever]

The best way to save fuel is to change your driving habits. As Top Gear proved, you can make a Toyota Prius use more fuel than a BMW M3.

Have a look at some of the VW diesel models. They can get ridiculously good fuel economy.

[Tomorrow]

In the U.S. if you buy the car new you can get a tax break. I don't know how much or if it even offsets the added cost of the hybrid. I've also read that up until recently the "estimated" fuel economy of many hybrids had been somewhat overstated; I do know that in the most recent models that figure is calculated differently and it might be more accurate.

For my part, I would like to see the technology become more widespread and road-tested (pun not intended), so to speak. I'm still skeptical of a few things in the technology:

1. Brakes are used to partially recharge the battery. What happens when these get wet? Are there any long-term effects?
2. Batteries eventually die and can't be recharged. How long does this take, how much does a new battery cost, and how to dispose of the old one?
3. Some rescue squads will not use the jaws of life or other apparatus on a hybrid because the voltage of the battery can be life-threatening to a rescue worker. This may or may not still be a problem and it may not affect all models.
4. Although they tend to last longer than a combustion engine, an electrical motor cannot readily be repaired; a combustion engine can.
5. I have read some blogs where users were disappointed in their fuel economy. I can't remember the name of the site, but one guy bought a Civic hybrid, spent the same amount of money as he would have on an Accord (a bigger car), and was only getting 5-6 mpg more than a standard Civic.

Of course, there's always the "warm and fuzzy" factor when buying a hybrid, some people just like to feel like they're doing something good for the environment.

[j/k/Andy]

If you drive a lot and plan on getting rid of the car before the 'hybrid' battery dies.

Exactly, there are a lot of unknown cost related to the battery life.

If you drive 15000 miles a year, at $3 gallon, you will save about $1350 in a 50 mpg car vs 20 mpg car. It will take about 6 years to break even, but then you need a new battery too.

[Sun Baked]

Exactly, there are a lot of unknown cost related to the battery life.

If you drive 15000 miles a year, at $3 gallon, you will save about $1350 in a 50 mpg car vs 20 mpg car. It will take about 6 years to break even, but then you need a new battery too.

Yep, there are already people complaining about the cost of repairing their used Prius with 100-125k and the $3k money pit.

[iPhoneNYC]

Hybrid usually pays off in a 3 to 5 year period. But what if gas goes back over $4 in the US? When I buy a new car I think I will go hybrid for both financial and environmental reasons.

[Eraserhead]

1. Brakes are used to partially recharge the battery. What happens when these get wet?

You know that electrical appliances can be made to work in water? My shaver and electric toothbrush can get fully submerged - I'd expect a braking system like this to be similar.

[Tomorrow]

You know that electrical appliances can be made to work in water? My shaver and electric toothbrush can get fully submerged - I'd expect a braking system like this to be similar.

I have those, too - the batteries and electrical connections are not exposed to water. The interface between a brake disc and brake pads IS exposed. Even if nothing shorts out, there's the possibility of galvanic action between the two.

[j/k/Andy]

Yep, there are already people complaining about the cost of repairing their used Prius with 100-125k and the $3k money pit.

Hopefully volume will bring cost down, but I'm still not a big fan of hybrid cars for most people if they are looking to save money.

[waloshin]

2008 Dodge Caliber - 18,000 with 34,000 km
2008 Toyota Prius 20,000 with 34,000 km

Gas mileage(Caliber = 29/34)
(Prius = 48/45)

* Would the Prius save anything in a 5 year run?

[Decrepit]

Driving habits, location, weather, traffic, etc. Those will dictate a hybrid's usefulness.

If you're in traffic a lot, being electric is fantastic. If you take short drives, a lot of hybrids are inefficient for those.

If it's cold a lot, it will reduce your mileage. If you're doing highway mileage, there are more efficient vehicles for that.

I drive a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. I wanted to support American hybrids, and needed something with enough space to move goalie equipment around and sometimes in places with bad weather. When I'm in town, my mileage is great, but when I have to do highway miles, it's not as great (but still WAY better than a non-hybrid SUV).

My Escape came with a 3 year warranty on the Escape portion, and an 8 year warranty on the hybrid part. So if I drive the car all the way into 2012 and need a battery, it's covered.

There's a lot of considerations in a new car, more so with a hybrid. Keep doing the research, but don't let cost be your only guide.

[yg17]

Hybrid usually pays off in a 3 to 5 year period. But what if gas goes back over $4 in the US? When I buy a new car I think I will go hybrid for both financial and environmental reasons.


Priuses aren't environmentally friendly as you may think...

http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius


The Prius' battery contains nickel, which is mined in Ontario Canada. The plant that smelts this nickel is apparently nicknamed "the Superstack" because of the amount of pollution it puts out; the area for miles around it is a wasteland because of acid rain and air pollution.
But the main problem that the "Dust to Dust" study has with the Prius' impact on the environment comes next.
That smelted nickel then has to travel (via container ship) to Europe to be refined, then to China to be made into "nickel foam," then to Japan for assembly, and finally to the United States. All this shipment for each tiny step in the production process costs a great deal, both in dollars and in pollution.
The study then concludes that -- all the production costs in mind -- the Prius costs about $3.25 per mile and is expected to last about 100,000 miles. The Hummer, on the other hand, with all the same factors counted, costs about $1.95 per mile and is expected to last about 300,000 miles.


If I was buying a car for fuel economy and the environment, I'd get a Jetta TDI.

[waloshin]

Priuses aren't environmentally friendly as you may think...

http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius




If I was buying a car for fuel economy and the environment, I'd get a Jetta TDI.

But then a Jetta Tdi, costs more initially then a used Prius. And the maintenance on the Diesel would be higher.

[Azmordean]

Ummm... for one thing your comparison on prices is pretty unfair. You are comparing a bunch of 2008 vehicles (that is, USED vehicles) to a NEW Honda Insight. Of course the used vehicles are going to be a better bargain.

The Honda Insight has lowered the price bar on hybrids from what I have seen - where a Civic hybrid or a Prius can easily run 28,000 USD or more, the Insight starts at 18,000 USD and tops out at 23,100 USD with a navigation system. While more expensive than, say, a gas civic, the gap is CONSIDERABLY smaller than in the past. So, if I were in the market for an economy type car, the Insight would be high on my list of things to test drive. And, since I live in a city, if I end up commuting by car, I'd say my inclination to go hybrid would be high. On the other hand, in rural areas where most miles are highway, or if you commute by mass transit so most of your driving is for pleasure and in off-peak traffic periods, a hybrid may make less sense.

[j/k/Andy]

Priuses aren't environmentally friendly as you may think...

http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius




If I was buying a car for fuel economy and the environment, I'd get a Jetta TDI.

Good post, not to mention how to depose of the used batteries.

Smaller cars driven less with more efficient powertrains

[Sun Baked]

Hopefully volume will bring cost down, but I'm still not a big fan of hybrid cars for most people if they are looking to save money.

Toyota did lower them, I don't know if they did another price cut after the $5.5k to $3k.

But it seems they are sensitive to the replacement costs, and I don't know what the OEM-style 3rd party packs are.

Edit: looked, yes they did, but seems the dealers are still raping people even though Toyota dropped them again.

[iJon]

I recently got a Camry Hybrid and I love the thing. I just filled up my first tank and got about an average of 36mpg. Granted I was driving a Jeep before so the difference is night and day.

Whether the savings are worth it or not is debatable. I can't really give a good answer since mine was a gift for graduation, so my savings start instantly.

[Sun Baked]

As long as iJon doesn't try to ford a river above the headlights in the Camry and/or let that water freeze in the starter he'll be fine.

[ButtUglyJeff]

The real question is what kind of driving do you do?

Back in '06, I purchased a Jetta TDI, from out of state. 95% of my driving is highway, and diesels are most efficient at cruising speed, where the RPMs can run at their lowest. The EPA estimate for my car highway was 43mpg, and I actually get about 46mpg, in the summer.

Hybrids get their highest efficiency during city driving (stop and go). That's when they take advantage of their stored battery power, and often turn their gas motors off, thus saving on fuel.

Both vehicles come at a premium. I know the diesel motor option was an additional $3000, and due to their demand, there was no bickering on price. I paid list.

You might want to look at the Honda Fit, Honda Civic, or Toyota Yaris gassers as well. A former coworker of mine, got 38-39mpg in his Yaris, which was quite impressive to me.........

[ErikCLDR]

$8000 - $10,000 absolutely not unless you're doing a ton driving or intend to keep the car for many years. By the time you have the hybrid premium paid off, you'll be in a place where I would be concerned about maintenance since not only is there a normal car under the hood but also an additional sophisticated electrical system.

If you are only planning on keeping the car for a couple years, the hybrid may be worth it because of the increased resale value.

If you want an insight, buy a civic. I'd stay away from the Dodge because of reliability issues. Same with VW however the VW Jetta TDI (I believe its only $22,000 with govt incentive) gets very good gas mileage.

[iJon]

As long as iJon doesn't try to ford a river above the headlights in the Camry and/or let that water freeze in the starter he'll be fine.

Wow, you remember that. I still shake my head thinking about that day. It scares me to think of telling my Dad that my Jeep is stuck hood high in a creek surrounded by thick forest in the middle of nowhere.

It's good to see some old friendly faces still posting on the board. Not many of us left.

jon

[SLC Flyfishing]

I had a 2002 Toyota Corolla, the body style just previous to the current one.

We honestly got 44 miles to the gallon even when the odometer read 70,000 miles. Better and far cheaper than any current hybrid.

SLC

[waloshin]

The real question is what kind of driving do you do?

Back in '06, I purchased a Jetta TDI, from out of state. 95% of my driving is highway, and diesels are most efficient at cruising speed, where the RPMs can run at their lowest. The EPA estimate for my car highway was 43mpg, and I actually get about 46mpg, in the summer.

Hybrids get their highest efficiency during city driving (stop and go). That's when they take advantage of their stored battery power, and often turn their gas motors off, thus saving on fuel.

Both vehicles come at a premium. I know the diesel motor option was an additional $3000, and due to their demand, there was no bickering on price. I paid list.

You might want to look at the Honda Fit, Honda Civic, or Toyota Yaris gassers as well. A former coworker of mine, got 38-39mpg in his Yaris, which was quite impressive to me.........

Mainly I would be doing city driving. I rarely ever go on the highway.

[cjm3113]

Check out the new Ford Hybrid, it blows the mileage of all the competitors away.

Edit: Fusion sets world record (http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-28-2009/0005014753&EDATE=)

[TheMonarch]

I have those, too - the batteries and electrical connections are not exposed to water. The interface between a brake disc and brake pads IS exposed. Even if nothing shorts out, there's the possibility of galvanic action between the two.

Umm you know any motor can become a generator right? Nothing in the braking system is more exposed on a hybrid than would be on a regular car. The electric motor simply goes from taking electricity to creating torque when you press the gas pedal, to taking torque and generating electricity when you brake.

[mscriv]

Check out the new Ford Hybrid, it blows the mileage of all the competitors away.

Edit: Fusion sets world record (http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-28-2009/0005014753&EDATE=)

Wow! What they did in this article is indeed impressive. It definitely shows, as others have stated in the thread, that your quickest and biggest "bang for the buck" is to change your driving habits.

[Tomorrow]

Umm you know any motor can become a generator right? Nothing in the braking system is more exposed on a hybrid than would be on a regular car. The electric motor simply goes from taking electricity to creating torque when you press the gas pedal, to taking torque and generating electricity when you brake.

An electric motor powered by a battery, charging the battery...sounds incredibly wasteful.

Just the same, the act of braking is also used to charge the battery (without the motor). I'm talking about long-term effects of brakes getting wet, since there's an interface that uses an electrical connection to recover energy to charge the battery.

A typical car's brakes get wet also, but they aren't charging the batteries with the brakes.

[TheMonarch]

An electric motor powered by a battery, charging the battery...sounds incredibly wasteful.

Just the same, the act of braking is also used to charge the battery (without the motor). I'm talking about long-term effects of brakes getting wet, since there's an interface that uses an electrical connection to recover energy to charge the battery.

A typical car's brakes get wet also, but they aren't charging the batteries with the brakes.


I'm not sure you understand regenerative braking. The brakes don't do any of the work. The computer along with the electric motor does. And its not wasteful, quite the opposite, its getting back energy that would otherwise be lost to your braking pads.

The is no regenerative-specific anything on the wheels. The wheels are, and behave, as they would on any other car.

[cjm3113]

Wow! What they did in this article is indeed impressive. It definitely shows, as others have stated in the thread, that your quickest and biggest "bang for the buck" is to change your driving habits.

No doubt, people do not realize how hard they are on the pedal.

[Demosthenes X]

Hybrids do carry a premium, but I can tell you just looking at your numbers that it is not as big as you claim. You're comparing a Fit LX to a loaded Insight. A fairer comparison would be an Insight LX ($23 900) to a Fit LX Automatic ($18 580). Still a big difference, and not a perfect comparison (e.g. the Fit LX comes with alloy wheels, the Insight with steel wheels), but more logical than comparing a loaded Insight with a mid-level Fit.

FWIW, I find small cars better value than hybrids, too. I recently bought an 09 Fit, and although the Insight gets better mileage, it is not worth the price premium and other compromises (i.e. no manual transmission available, lousy driving dynamics).

[twoodcc]

it's only worth it if you keep the car a long time. like over 6 years. eventually you'll make the money back

[mactastic]

As others have noted, the return on a hybrid will be determined primarily by the type of driving you do, as well as whether there are tax incentives to help offset the initial cost.

If you do not do the bulk of your driving in low-speed conditions, forget it. If you do most of your driving at speed on the freeway, you'd do better to get a Fit or a Yaris if you're looking to keep your gas costs down along with your vehicle costs. If you're willing to shell out a few more dollars for a more efficient powerplant, look into the VW diesels (although from what I've seen the new Jetta TDI doesn't get anywhere near the claimed 44mpg).

Hybrids are only a good deal as an around-town car, or if you spend most of your time stopped on the freeway.

[twoodcc]

As others have noted, the return on a hybrid will be determined primarily by the type of driving you do, as well as whether there are tax incentives to help offset the initial cost.

If you do not do the bulk of your driving in low-speed conditions, forget it. If you do most of your driving at speed on the freeway, you'd do better to get a Fit or a Yaris if you're looking to keep your gas costs down along with your vehicle costs. If you're willing to shell out a few more dollars for a more efficient powerplant, look into the VW diesels (although from what I've seen the new Jetta TDI doesn't get anywhere near the claimed 44mpg).

Hybrids are only a good deal as an around-town car, or if you spend most of your time stopped on the freeway.

very good point! high speeds are not good for getting good mileage, in any car, but especially not good for a car that's not meant to go that fast (hybrids)

[Eanair]

In my experience with a Prius, I found that the two conditions that most affected my gas mileage were: my driving habits and weather.

Adjusting my driving habits to be a little less, err, aggressive yielded amazing results. And in the winter, my mileage takes a dive.

Currently, my temperature-based averages are:

Colder weather (winter, fall): 48 miles/gallon
Warmer weather (spring, summer): 53 miles/gallon

EDIT: To note something interesting though, I used to do strict highway driving for my commute. I've since moved, and now I do only city driving. My mileage has actually fallen...

[cjm3113]

EDIT: To note something interesting though, I used to do strict highway driving for my commute. I've since moved, and now I do only city driving. My mileage has actually fallen...

It makes sense than it has fallen in comparison to your high way driving. The advantage you have over a non hybrid car in the city is still much larger than the one you have over a non hybrid car on the high way though. :D

[Eanair]

It makes sense than it has fallen in comparison to your high way driving. The advantage you have over a non hybrid car in the city is still much larger than the one you have over a non hybrid car on the high way though. :D

I've always thought though that highway driving chugs more gas than city driving. :confused:

Perhaps I've had to compensate in aggressiveness for city driving. Boston is evil that way.

[cjm3113]

I've always thought though that highway driving chugs more gas than city driving. :confused:

Perhaps I've had to compensate in aggressiveness for city driving. Boston is evil that way.

Driving equal periods of time on the high way and in the city would probably result in more fuel burned on the high way. You would have also traveled a much further distance though.

So while you are burning fuel faster, it is more efficient.

[twoodcc]

I've always thought though that highway driving chugs more gas than city driving. :confused:

Perhaps I've had to compensate in aggressiveness for city driving. Boston is evil that way.

there's a reason the sticker usually has a higher number for the highway mileage.

[Eanair]

there's a reason the sticker usually has a higher number for the highway mileage.

Mine was the other way around.

I've been puzzling for a while over it.

EDIT: http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p241/solarkismet/blog/Prius_WindowSticker_classic.jpg

City: 52
Highway: 45

Yes?

[cjm3113]

Mine was the other way around.

I've been puzzling for a while over it.

EDIT: http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p241/solarkismet/blog/Prius_WindowSticker_classic.jpg

City: 52
Highway: 45

Yes?

Yes, that is right for a Hybrid.

[Azmordean]

FWIW, I find small cars better value than hybrids, too. I recently bought an 09 Fit, and although the Insight gets better mileage, it is not worth the price premium and other compromises (i.e. no manual transmission available, lousy driving dynamics).

Have you driven a hybrid? I'm just curious. I thought the same thing, but I got one as a rental car this past weekend (a Prius). I was, frankly, extremely impressed with the car, and I'm a guy who likes a V6! I drove it in a variety of situations (350 miles, around town, highway, and in traffic jams). It was very drivable. And when I hammered the accelerator it was far more responsive than I had anticipated. It took some getting used to, but once I did, I found it was every bit as drivable as an automatic gas Civic or Corolla.

In my experience with a Prius, I found that the two conditions that most affected my gas mileage were: my driving habits and weather.

Adjusting my driving habits to be a little less, err, aggressive yielded amazing results. And in the winter, my mileage takes a dive.

Currently, my temperature-based averages are:

Colder weather (winter, fall): 48 miles/gallon
Warmer weather (spring, summer): 53 miles/gallon

EDIT: To note something interesting though, I used to do strict highway driving for my commute. I've since moved, and now I do only city driving. My mileage has actually fallen...

It depends on the type of city driving. Stop and go with traffic lights and such still burns a lot of gas in a hybrid. Why? Because you usually hit the accelerator somewhat hard at a light to get back up to speed, so the gas engine comes on pretty quick. Where the hybrid shines is the low speed traffic jam type travel, where all travel is between 0 and 20mph and acceleration is slow. I was stuck in such a traffic jam on an interstate (accident), and I got 99.9mpg during that period in the Prius - it basically ran on electric the whole time.

I got 45-50mpg average with the Prius on my trip. I find that impressive, as its at least a 10mpg advantage over most automatic transmission all-gas economy cars (and a 15-30mpg advantage over my V6 :o)

[Eanair]

And when I hammered the accelerator it was far more responsive than I had anticipated.

I agree. My acceleration with the Prius was much more responsive than originally anticipated; however, I'll still say that even though I was pleasantly surprised, I still found myself trying to get on the highway where all the cars were going about 75 MPH screaming, "MERGE PRIUS, MERGE!!!" I heard it's even better with the newer models too.

It depends on the type of city driving. Stop and go with traffic lights and such still burns a lot of gas in a hybrid. Why? Because you usually hit the accelerator somewhat hard at a light to get back up to speed, so the gas engine comes on pretty quick. Where the hybrid shines is the low speed traffic jam type travel, where all travel is between 0 and 20mph and acceleration is slow. I was stuck in such a traffic jam on an interstate (accident), and I got 99.9mpg during that period in the Prius - it basically ran on electric the whole time.

Ahhh, that could be it then. My city driving involves a lot of traffic lights. Good to know, thanks! :)

[bainesajay]

I am a proud owner of a a 2008 Prius. I was very skeptical at first. On average I use 4.5 L for every 100KM. I think this is a much better way to look at it (sorry not SI people).

Most cars do not give you real world on the go consumption rate. Since my prius used slightly more than Toyota said, I will assume that a regular car will too.

The Toyota Corolla is rated at 9.4L (assume 10L for real world) for every 100KM. Say you only use the car for 100,000 KM, and gas cost you $1 per litre and gas price remained constant.

You would save $5.5 for every 100KM, $5500 for ever 100,000KM. That

In order to compare Apples to Apples, I think a Corolla would be more than fair, same company, roughly same size, and it would have to be an automatic with similar features.

MRSP for Toyota Corolla LE $24,500
MRSP for Toyota Prius $27,100

After a 100,000KM you have well saved the money. This does not factor rebates and such. Also the Prius is a joy to drive, I get speeds of 150KM an hour on the highway and its so quiet. I love this car.

Last, I would like to add that Toyota has the only real hybrid technology which combines both motors in synergy.

[mactastic]

Mine was the other way around.

I've been puzzling for a while over it.

EDIT: http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p241/solarkismet/blog/Prius_WindowSticker_classic.jpg

City: 52
Highway: 45

Yes?
Yes. You get better mileage in the city because you're using only the electric engine at low speeds.

Taxi fleets, pizza delivery vehicles, FedEx trucks -- those are the kind of vehicles that would benefit most from hybrid technology. Lots of low-speed, stop-and-go driving in a city setting. Lots of time spent with the motor on but the wheels not turning -- like at a stoplight or dropping off a package.

If you're going to drive two miles to the freeway, then put 30 miles on at freeway speed before you go another mile or two to work or shopping or whatever, then you're better off getting a clean diesel; or just a small, efficient, gas engine car.

If you really wanted to be eco-friendly, you could "reuse" (remember, reduce, reuse, recycle) one of those older Mercedes diesels, and run it on vegetable oil. Bit more of a PITA, but if you work it right, your fuel could be free. And smell like donuts. And who wouldn't want a car that smelled like donuts? :p

[jbernie]

With the way prices are right now, based on Hybrids being fairly new and the technology not really being mass produced (ie cost efficent) you should aim to buy the hybrid to reduce your use of gas, not save money.

A Prius will do better than a Corolla but will cost more and the fuel economy gains over the Corolla aren't amazing, they definately exist, but it won't be like switching from an SUV to a hybdrid sedan.

A lot of the decision comes down to what sort of driving you do, if you are stuck in peak hour stop/go <20mph traffic most of the time then you can probably do very well with most hybrids. If you are cruising the highways all day then maybe not so much as a lot of cars can easily get 30mpg highway without trying, the V6s GM puts in their cars can do 31-32mpg no issue as once the vehicle is moving you dont require as much energy to keep it moving, as opposed to stop/go traffic when you need to get the the 3-4500lbs of bulk moving every few seconds.

Depending on your exact needs you could probably do well with a used Civic or similar as the initial cost isn't all that high and the difference between the purchase prices = gas money for the Civic. It will also depend on what incentives are available in your area, if there are any government rebates on hybrids, etc etc, a lot of local factors we can't touch on.

Wanting to save gas? Hybrid all the way.
Wanting to save $$$? Your experience may vary.

[themoonisdown09]

I'm just waiting for the hydrogen cars to get popular.