Gays vs Christians

[The Californian]

I have a friend that spends quite a bit of time focusing on the topic of homosexuality in the Church. He is a gay man, and while I don't talk to him all that often, when I see the stuff he posts on Facebook it makes me believe he is trying to justify life as a homosexual, and that he's trying to convince people that God is completely okay with a homosexual lifestyle. Now while this is a topic that I have found myself becoming more passionate about over the past several years, I also find it to be a subject that is focused way too much on in the Christian community. I see two groups of people in the Church when it comes to homosexuality ( these aren't exclusive groups that you must be part of one ... they are just the two major groups ) you either have the group that is very adamant that the mere act of having a homosexual thought will send you to hell and you need to be healed from this disease, and then there's the group that believes that Christians have homosexuality wrong and that you can live a gay life with a gay partner in the same way a straight person lives a life with a spouse and it's perfectly acceptable in Gods eyes. Now first of all I'm going to say that both of these groups are wrong biblically, and secondly I'm going to say that these people are missing out on the beauty of Jesus by spending so much time focusing on this one topic. Now that I've pissed off a couple of groups, I think I should explain myself.

To the first group, the people that believe we should dig a huge pit to hell and throw all the gays in there and live happily ever after let me say that your misrepresentation of Christ is sickening to me. When I sit down and read about the life of Jesus ( which I must admit I don't do half as much as I should ) I see a man that loved unconditionally. I don't remember Him walking around telling people that His Father hated them because they were adulterers, or because they were liars or thieves ... I'm pretty sure I remember Him walking around telling people they needed to help those in need and feed and clothe the poor and take care of widows ... See, He was focused on what was important and what really changes people and heals the deep wounds that have scarred our hearts ... LOVE. Actually there's a verse that talks about this, and let me break it down for you. There were these guys in biblical times that were called scribes, think of them as journalists without agendas that would be killed if it was found out what they documented didn't happen or was a lie. Basically, their job was to write down history as it happened, study stuff that has happened and be completely accurate. So this scribe heard Jesus talking and recognized how true everything He was saying was and he wanted to know what the most important commandment of all the commandments was. Now he wasn't just talking about the 10 commandments, he was most likely talking about all 613 of the laws/commandments in the Pre-Jesus Bible ( Old Testament ), so out of all 613 which does Jesus choose? The two that sum it all up, the two that if you follow ... all the other ones will just happen anyway and they are "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." ( Deuteronomy 6:5 ) and "... you shall love your neighbor as yourself ..." ( Leviticus 19:18 ), Jesus says these in Matthew 22:34-40. So what if your neighbor is an alcoholic? What if your neighbor commits adultery? And what if your neighbor is ... oh my ... GAY?? What should you do? Love them ... We need to put down the protest signs and stop trying to be God and send people to hell and start loving them. I've talked to several gay men whom have told me that if they could feel for a woman the way they feel for men they would do it in a second just to stop being harassed at the very least but so ultimately, from what I've been told so they can have a "normal" happy life. I put normal in quotation marks because none of us are normal. Basically us Christians need to stop trying to change people into something that is easier to love ... and just start loving them the way they are and let the Holy Spirit do any changes He wants to do in their life.

Alright, for the second group of people that believe it's okay to live a gay lifestyle with a gay partner in the same way a straight person lives a life with their spouse you are just trying to fool yourself. If you have a relationship with Christ and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, you know that this is a lie ... I can say this because I have talked to so many gay Christian men and women that tell me how deep down they know this isn't the lifestyle God wants for them but they can't help but try to justify it by twisting scripture or even trying to get inside Gods head and convince themselves that God just wants them to be happy however they decide to live their life. Now I'm not going to get into all the typical "Adam and Steve" talk and how unnatural homosexuality is but I'll just break it down with some scripture just like I did for the other group, the reason I'm not gonna sit here and try to reason with this group is because from the conversations I've had with members of this group I've come to realize that they know the truth deep down but fight it. Basically ... I like to compare gay people to alcoholics ... I know, it makes no sense ... yet. See, there's all kinds of alcoholics in the church but no one ever gets on their case about having tendencies towards alcohol, only when they actually get drunk ... and when they start thinking of going to a bar or going and picking up some drinks at the supermarket I don't see Christians saying "Ooohhh my! You're going to hell for desiring alcohol", they actually commend them for not acting it out. See, God loves the sinner, hates the sin. He loves the alcoholic, hates the alcoholism ... He loves the homosexual, hates the act of homosexuality. The verse that I see twisted the most often is Leviticus 18:22 where homosexuals like to say that it's saying don't be with a man and a woman at the same time ... but to choose one. So while I used the NKJV for the earlier group because I don't think anyone will argue with what those verses really mean, I'm going to use the hebrew for this verse " וּבְכָל-בְּהֵמָה לֹא-תִתֵּן שְׁכָבְתְּךָ, לְטָמְאָה-בָהּ; וְאִשָּׁה, לֹא-תַעֲמֹד לִפְנֵי בְהֵמָה לְרִבְעָהּ--תֶּבֶל הוּא." - Leviticus 18:22. Which literally translated says "When sex with man as with woman: abomination is". I'm sorry it doesn't translate more smoothly, but I don't want anyone thinking I'm doing anything shady here. So I think that one is pretty obvious, but if I completely ignore that verse ... What about this one? "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." Romans 13:1. So since it is not legal to marry someone of your own gender, and sex outside of wedlock is either adultery ( sex between a married person and a person they are not married to ) or fornication ( sex between two unmarried people ) which are both sinful in Gods eyes according to many verses including Galatians 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, ..." it should be clear that the act of homosexual sex is sinful no matter what your thoughts are on Leviticus 18:22 are. Now why am I saying this? Because trying to justify the homosexual lifestyle is causing just as much dissension in the Church as the people who are saying all gays should be thrown into hell ... because it's just not true.

So what's the truth? God loves us all, and He wants us to love Him and He wants us to treat eachother with love. I'm not gonna go all hippie and say we need to accept everyones lifestyle ... CAUSE WE DON'T! We need to accept eachother as brothers and sisters in Christ, and then we need to love the people that aren't Christians ... because that is what Jesus did. I never read of Jesus punching someone in the face because they didn't believe He was the Son of God ... He still loved them. I just think we need to stop getting all wrapped up in this whole I can live however I want, and I can judge you for how you're living, and we need to just start living out Gods love. Like I said, to love someone doesn't mean you have to accept their lifestyle ... Just them as a person. Trust me, once you start truly loving people ... You'll see a change in your perspective ... and trust me, I'm probably one of the people furthest from attaining this goal.

[Blue Velvet]

Do you follow all of the prohibitions in Leviticus?

[Tomorrow]

Feel better? ;)

Seriously though, I don't fall into either of your two hypothetical groups. I have read what some hard-line religious groups think and I have read what supporters of homosexuality think.

My take - which is likely the same as that of other Christians, I suspect - is that it's not my place to pass a judgment; that's God's job. I'd rather just see people taking care of each other and doing the right thing in their various walks of life, and outside of that let each person live his/her own life.

[drewsof07]

My take - which is likely the same as that of other Christians, I suspect - is that it's not my place to pass a judgment; that's God's job. I'd rather just see people taking care of each other and doing the right thing in their various walks of life, and outside of that let each person live his/her own life.

Exactly, we should be focused on teaching people what God wants, not forcing them ourselves.

[Sky Blue]

God is cool with gays. He told me.

[ZiggyPastorius]

I never read of Jesus punching someone in the face because they didn't believe He was the Son of God...

...Think again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IblzBerSFk

:D ;)

[Eraserhead]

Do you follow all of the prohibitions in Leviticus?

Especially not wearing those clothes with a wool/linen mix - maybe that's a mistranslation of clothes made with animal/plant fibres - how can we be sure? And what about artificial fibres :eek:.

Maybe we need to start a campaign against Gap on that :p.

[Beerfloat]

5$ on the gays

[mactastic]

Basically ... I like to compare gay people to alcoholics ... I know, it makes no sense ... yet.
I like to compare Christians to child molesters. I know it makes no sense, yet there it is...

[arkitect]

If you have a relationship with Christ and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, you know that this is a lie ...

Well there's your problem right there…
See, I don't have a relationship with fictional characters.
Much less feel myself possessed by some! :eek:

I have a relationship with my partner.
And it is no lie…

So what are you on about?

:rolleyes:

[Teh Don Ditty]

I like to compare Christians to child molesters. I know it makes no sense, yet there it is...

I'd like to nominate this for MR's post of the year award.

[imac/cheese]

" וּבְכָל-בְּהֵמָה לֹא-תִתֵּן שְׁכָבְתְּךָ, לְטָמְאָה-בָהּ; וְאִשָּׁה, לֹא-תַעֲמֹד לִפְנֵי בְהֵמָה לְרִבְעָהּ--תֶּבֶל הוּא." - Leviticus 18:22. Which literally translated says "When sex with man as with woman: abomination is".

I didn't know Yoda spoke in translated Hebrew. :D

[leekohler]

I didn't know Yoda spoke in translated Hebrew. :D

Haha! Wow, that was good!

[arkitect]

I didn't know Yoda spoke in translated Hebrew. :D

Haha! Wow, that was good!

Well, Google says:
"Yet - not animal - let Scbtc, Ltmah - it; woman, not - Stand up before the beast foursome - the globe is. "
Makes a whole lot more sense to me than the OP's translation.

[iGary]

Good lord, this post gave me a headache.

[adrianblaine]

the heart of the matter (in the context of Christianity) is sexual immorality. if you love someone, such as a spouse, you wouldn't have sex with someone else. period. having sex with multiple people is what the sin is, hetero or homosexual, it doesn't matter. i've always been adamant that straight people are guilty of this more than any other group, simply because there are more of them. anyone who has cheated on their husband/wife or had sex with anyone but their life partner is committing THE EXACT SAME sin.

[themoonisdown09]

Good lord, this post gave me a headache.

That's why I haven't read it yet... it looks really long and painful.

[yg17]

That's why I haven't read it yet... it looks really long and painful.

If you look up tl;dr in the dictionary, there's a screenshot of this thread :D

[iGary]

the heart of the matter (in the context of Christianity) is sexual immorality. if you love someone, such as a spouse, you wouldn't have sex with someone else. period. having sex with multiple people is what the sin is, hetero or homosexual, it doesn't matter. i've always been adamant that straight people are guilty of this more than any other group, simply because there are more of them. anyone who has cheated on their husband/wife or had sex with anyone but their life partner is committing THE EXACT SAME sin.

Just like going to that all-you-can-eat seafood bar damns you to hell. Doesn't matter.

Look, someone even started a God Hates Shrimp (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/)Web site. :D

It amazes me that people can't see how utterly ridiculous religion is.

[Kardashian]

I have a relationship with my partner.
And it is no lie…

Dunno why but I started turning this line into a song.

Must be the Cher in me.

[Eraserhead]

Just like going to that all-you-can-eat seafood bar damns you to hell.

I think banning seafood is more rational than banning gay sex or clothes with a wool-linen mix, at least seafood gives you food poisoning if it isn't cooked properly ;).

[Iscariot]

See, I don't have a relationship with fictional characters.

Are you saying the love I have with Spider-Man isn't real?! :mad:

[yg17]

I think banning seafood is more rational than banning gay sex or clothes with a wool-linen mix, at least seafood gives you food poisoning if it isn't cooked properly ;).

Hopefully there won't ever be a lobster flu pandemic, otherwise, we'll just hear "I told you so!" ;)

[Eraserhead]

Look, someone even started a God Hates Shrimp (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/)Web site. :D.

Brilliant website.

[Eanair]

I think banning seafood is more rational than banning gay sex or clothes with a wool-linen mix, at least seafood gives you food poisoning if it isn't cooked properly ;).

Uh huh to that.

If anything's of the devil, it's what happens to your stomach after eating a bad mussel (or two...or three...or a whole bucket).

[emt1]

God is cool with gays. He told me.

I love your post for two reasons.

1. It's simple.
2. It's just as valid as any crazy Christian's post. There's no way to prove anything.

I really shouldn't bother with these threads anymore. The stupidity among Bible-loving, God fearing, psychotic Christians is really just mind blowing. OMG DONT BE GAY GOD SAID NOT TO! How do you know? ITS IN THE BIBLE!!! Do you follow everything you read in the Bible? NO NOT REALLY!!! :rolleyes:

[jav6454]

Basically, this post reinforced what I said in the Miss California Gay discussion.

God loves us as we are, regardless our state (gay or not). People arguing otherwise are terribly wrong and need another good read at the Bible.

[Tomorrow]

i've always been adamant that straight people are guilty of this more than any other group, simply because there are more of them.

What in the WORLD kind of logic is this?!? Certain people are guilty of a sin because other people in the same group as them commit the sin?

[michael.lauden]

any body can argue anything as long as they want... but honestly... whatever makes you happy dude.

if you love God, who says you can't be a christian

if you love dudes, who says you can't be gay.

honestly the only people who get their feelings hurt are people who care what others think...

[emt1]

any body can argue anything as long as they want... but honestly... whatever makes you happy dude.

if you love God, who says you can't be a christian

if you love dudes, who says you can't be gay.

honestly the only people who get their feelings hurt are people who care what others think...

The problem is that people who don't think like you do sometimes get to make laws.

[mactastic]

What in the WORLD kind of logic is this?!? Certain people are guilty of a sin because other people in the same group as them commit the sin?
I think he's trying to say that as a group, heterosexuals sin more with regard to sex outside of marriage than homosexuals do, simply by sheer numbers. I don't think he's trying to say that individual people are guilty of a sin that others commit.

[adrianblaine]

What in the WORLD kind of logic is this?!? Certain people are guilty of a sin because other people in the same group as them commit the sin?

i'm not saying they are guilty. I'm simply stating that there is no way that homosexuals are having sex with multiple partners more than heterosexuals.

[michael.lauden]

The problem is that people who don't think like you do sometimes get to make laws.

yeah but there isn't a law that says gay people can't eat. there is one that says they can't get married.. but those are changing, or atleast have been.

you could always go out of state too.. not that big of a deal - but on the other hand im not into guys.. so i guess im on the much longer end of the stick

[EricNau]

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." Romans 13:1

Now that's interesting. All world leaders are appointed by God? Absolutely all of them?

[iJohnHenry]

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God." Romans 13:1

Now that's interesting. All world leaders are appointed by God? Absolutely all of them?

I believe that would be the clerical authorities. Sorry.

[rhsgolfer33]

The government should either recognize marriage or not, regardless of gay or straight. If the government decides to recognize gay marriage, then it should allow each church to decide whether it wants to perform gay marriages or not. So, the Catholic church doesn't want to? Fine. The Episcopalians want to? Great. Why does it matter if you don't even believe the same thing?

Life would be a lot nicer if people accepted others differences and realized they make life a hell of a lot more interesting.

[Benguitar]

(Walks in, looks around, walks the **** out.) :p ;)



Here is what I have to say,


"No comment"

[PcBgone]

Snip

I appreciate a good word. I agree whole heartedly, however Matthew 7:6 tells us not to cast our pearls before swine.

Your message has fallen on deaf ears. This crowd here is the world that despises and hates Christ. Dust off your sandals and move on to the next town, as this crowd will never listen.

They would rather hate Christians, and call them Bigots, not realizing that very word applies to themselves. Fight the Good Fight, and keep the Faith!

[emt1]

I appreciate a good word. I agree whole heartedly, however Matthew 7:6 tells us not to cast our pearls before swine.

Your message has fallen on deaf ears. This crowd here is the world that despises and hates Christ. Dust off your sandals and move on to the next town, as this crowd will never listen.

They would rather hate Christians, and call them Bigots, not realizing that very word applies to themselves. Fight the Good Fight, and keep the Faith!

Oops. Sorry you lack evidence that anything in the Bible has anything to do with what "God" wants. Its faith based on nothing. Which is illogical, and a really sad way to live.

And yes, the message does fall on deaf ears, because I refuse to listen to anyone who preaches when they have absolutely no evidence that what they are saying is true.

[Eanair]

This crowd here is the world that despises and hates Christ. [...] They would rather hate Christians, and call them Bigots, not realizing that very word applies to themselves.

Nice generalizations and assumptions there.

[PcBgone]

Oops. Sorry you lack evidence that anything in the Bible has anything to do with what "God" wants. Its faith based on nothing. Which is illogical, and a really sad way to live.

And yes, the message does fall on deaf ears, because I refuse to listen to anyone who preaches when they have absolutely no evidence that what they are saying is true.

Prove He doesnt exist. Simple as that. Im not asking you to believe. In fact I wasnt even talking to you. I was talking to a fellow believer.

[Tomorrow]

I think he's trying to say that as a group, heterosexuals sin more with regard to sex outside of marriage than homosexuals do, simply by sheer numbers. I don't think he's trying to say that individual people are guilty of a sin that others commit.

i'm not saying they are guilty. I'm simply stating that there is no way that homosexuals are having sex with multiple partners more than heterosexuals.

If adrianblaine had said something akin to "the average heterosexual sins more with regard to sex outside of marriage than the average homosexual does," I'd simply ask for some stats to back it up and let it be. But that isn't what he said; he said that due to sheer collective numbers, heterosexuals are more guilty than homosexuals:

i've always been adamant that straight people are guilty of this more than any other group, simply because there are more of them.

That is necessarily laying blame on an entire group for the transgressions of an unknown number of individuals, not to mention there's a pretty big flaw in the reasoning; it's like saying that Indian people are more guilty of sex outside marriage than Americans simply because there are more of them; there's nothing statistically useful in that statement.

[PcBgone]

Nice generalizations and assumptions there.

I thought it would fit in well with the crowd here.

[emt1]

Prove He doesnt exist. Simple as that. Im not asking you to believe. In fact I wasnt even talking to you. I was talking to a fellow believer.

Nobody can prove anything regarding god!

[drewsof07]

Its faith based on nothing. Which is illogical, and a really sad way to live.
The sad way to live is watching your loved one die and not praying or doing anything because you simply refuse to believe in a power higher than yourself.

And just so you know, I think your understanding of the word "faith" needs adjustment. Strong belief (particularly religious) based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

[PcBgone]

Nobody can prove anything regarding god!

Then I guess we are both up a creek without a paddle, you cant prove He doesnt exist. I cant prove He does.

So guess when we die we will find out who is right.

[emt1]

The sad way to live is watching your loved one die and not praying or doing anything because you simply refuse to believe in a power higher than yourself.

And just so you know, I think your understanding of the word "faith" is poorly used.

I agree that watching a loved one die is sad. I do not "refuse" to believe in a higher power... I cannot believe in one. I can only believe things that I have evidence of. Even if I wanted to believe in God, I simply can't.

Then I guess we are both up a creek without a paddle, you cant prove He doesnt exist. I cant prove He does.

So guess when we die we will find out who is right.

The difference is that I'm spending my life helping other people, simply because I believe it's the right thing to do. You are just trying to make sure you get into heaven.

[drewsof07]

I agree that watching a loved one die is sad. I do not "refuse" to believe in a higher power... I cannot believe in one. I can only believe things that I have evidence of. Even if I wanted to believe in God, I simply can't.

So you would be perfectly content to sit and do nothing, rather than try anything possible (even pray) to save them?

[emt1]

So you would be perfectly content to sit and do nothing, rather than try anything possible (even pray) to save them?

I'm an EMT and I'm going to med school.

[PcBgone]

I agree that watching a loved one die is sad. I do not "refuse" to believe in a higher power... I cannot believe in one. I can only believe things that I have evidence of. Even if I wanted to believe in God, I simply can't.

What a paradox then. God wont reveal Himself to those who dismiss Him with a hardened heart. Yet you wont believe in Him enough to receive the very evidence you want.

What to do? But Im sure in your state of mind you will simply let your pride take over and deny their ever being a God, asking the Creator of the Universe to show Himself to you. And when He doesnt, you will be yelling from the mountains God doesnt exist because He hasnt proved Himself to you.

If you didnt believe I existed, why do I need to prove my existence to you?

The difference is that I'm spending my life helping other people, simply because I believe it's the right thing to do. You are just trying to make sure you get into heaven.

Thats a judgemental statement. How do you know Im not helping other people? Because you assume it? Very nice. I would have thought an "intelligent" person as yourself would know better then assuming.

[emt1]

What a paradox then. God wont reveal Himself to those who dismiss Him with a hardened heart. Yet you wont believe in Him enough to receive the very evidence you want.

What to do? But Im sure in your state of mind you will simply let your pride take over and deny their ever being a God, asking the Creator of the Universe to show Himself to you. And when He doesnt, you will be yelling from the mountains God doesnt exist because He hasnt proved Himself to you.

If you didnt believe I existed, why do I need to prove my existence to you?

I do not believe "there is no God". I have no belief regarding the existence of God or lack thereof. I don't know. I will not just blindly believe without evidence, though.

[drewsof07]

I'm an EMT and I'm going to med school.
That's awesome, congrats! But after all of your knowledge and medical resources had been exhausted, you would still do nothing regardless of how "irrational" it seemed?
See, it's easy to say you don't believe but in times of desperation people will try anything. I'm sure you know the 5 stages of death include "bargaining" which generally occurs between themselves and God. "I'll be good if you let me live." I've seen this time after time as a nurse.

See, this is a reasonable discussion unlike some of the others around here. Thank you for being civil :)

[emt1]

That's awesome, congrats! But after all of your knowledge and medical resources had been exhausted, you would still do nothing regardless of how "irrational" it seemed?
See, it's easy to say you don't believe but in times of desperation people will try anything. I'm sure you know the 5 stages of death include "bargaining" which generally occurs with a deity of some sort. "I'll be good if you let me live." I've seen this time after time as a nurse.

See, this is a reasonable discussion unlike some of the others around here. Thank you for being civil :)

Even if I did, in a moment of weakness, start to pray to a higher power, you yourself already referred to that as "irrational". You took the words right out of my mouth.

[drewsof07]

Even if I did, in a moment of weakness, start to pray to a higher power, you yourself already referred to that as "irrational". You took the words right out of my mouth.

haha, I was humoring you with that terminology based on your belief.
But I've said my peace.

[emt1]

haha, I was humoring you with that terminology based on your belief.
But I've said my peace.

Next, please! ;)

[sushi]

Nobody can prove anything regarding god!
I think that is why they call it faith. :)

[adrianblaine]

I'd simply ask for some stats to back it up and let it be.

I guess I was going with the general knowledge that we are not a monogamous culture. I don't have studies in front of me, but I remember seeing studies that found the average male has anywhere between 6 and 10 sexual partners and woman somewhere around 4-6. That, is a lot of sleeping around

I am sorry if I offended

[SLC Flyfishing]

I'm an EMT and I'm going to med school.

First off, you hope you're going to med school. Second off, all the EMT skills on the world (and I'm sure you posses them all) won't save some people.

So your kid has an inoperable brain tumor, it's not responding to any available treatment (you've tried everything possible) and is dying in bed before your eyes. What do you do?

Me, I pray to god, and anyone else who will listen and ask them to help any way they can. Because even if I think the idea of god is irrational (and I don't by the way) I'm willing to try the irrational to save my loved ones.

I think you should take a death and dying course before applying for Med School if you can. Because to be an even halfway descent physician you're going to have to learn to show empathy for others and not be so forthcoming with your idea that their beliefs and hopes are irrational.

There was nothing more sad than sitting in the clinic I volunteer at and hearing a PA lay into some lady because she wanted to pray on what treatment course to take for her condition. She sat there for like 15 minutes lecturing this poor old lady on why it's a poor idea to believe in god, especially when health care matters are at hand. She should have let the lady go and do her thing, then come back and tell her what her wishes were. Poor practice indeed.

SLC

[emt1]

First off, you hope you're going to med school. Second off, all the EMT skills on the world (and I'm sure you posses them all) won't save some people.

So your kid has an inoperable brain tumor, and is dying in bed before your eyes. What do you do?

Me, I pray to god, and anyone else who will listen and ask them to help any way they can.

SLC

The only methods I would consider would be those that have evidence supporting them. There is no evidence that praying for a cancer victim would increase the likelihood of their survival. I would use my time, energy, and brain power thinking of possible solutions to the problem, and not just hoping things work out. I mean seriously, what if doctors/scientists/anyone did that when they didn't know how to fix something?

I'm aware that sometimes I can't save someone. It has happened, but I know that I did everything I am capable of.

[The Californian]

Nobody can prove anything regarding god!


You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of things I can't prove. I can't prove air exists, I can only prove the effects of it. That's the same way it is for God, I see the effects of God on the people around me and myself. I've been a Paramedic for 6 years and a Cardiac Telemetry Specialst for about a year now and I can personally say I have seen things happen that can not be explained through logic or scientific theories. I have seen people die, be pronounced dead and then with no interventions apart from prayer come back to life.

So yes, there are a lot of things that can't be proven or explained ... But that doesn't stop you from breathing ... does it?

I absolutely respect your choice to NOT believe in God, that's your free will and I'm not going to shove my beliefs down your throat ... But Jesus has done some amazing things in my life, and I want to tell people. Just like if Chuck Norris saved me from a bunch of ninjas, I'd want to share that too.

[leekohler]

You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of things I can't prove. I can't prove air exists, I can only prove the effects of it. That's the same way it is for God, I see the effects of God on the people around me and myself. I've been a Paramedic for 6 years and a Cardiac Telemetry Specialst for about a year now and I can personally say I have seen things happen that can not be explained through logic or scientific theories. I have seen people die, be pronounced dead and then with no interventions apart from prayer come back to life.

So yes, there are a lot of things that can't be proven or explained ... But that doesn't stop you from breathing ... does it?

I absolutely respect your choice to NOT believe in God, that's your free will and I'm not going to shove my beliefs down your throat ... But Jesus has done some amazing things in my life, and I want to tell people. Just like if Chuck Norris saved me from a bunch of ninjas, I'd want to share that too.

Umm...yes it can be proven that air exists.

[Gelfin]

But Jesus has done some amazing things in my life, and I want to tell people. Just like if Chuck Norris saved me from a bunch of ninjas, I'd want to share that too.

And just like that, don't be surprised when some people say "pics or it didn't happen." ;)

[emt1]

You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of things I can't prove. I can't prove air exists, I can only prove the effects of it. That's the same way it is for God, I see the effects of God on the people around me and myself. I've been a Paramedic for 6 years and a Cardiac Telemetry Specialst for about a year now and I can personally say I have seen things happen that can not be explained through logic or scientific theories. I have seen people die, be pronounced dead and then with no interventions apart from prayer come back to life.

So yes, there are a lot of things that can't be proven or explained ... But that doesn't stop you from breathing ... does it?

I absolutely respect your choice to NOT believe in God, that's your free will and I'm not going to shove my beliefs down your throat ... But Jesus has done some amazing things in my life, and I want to tell people. Just like if Chuck Norris saved me from a bunch of ninjas, I'd want to share that too.

Just because something unexplainable happens, doesn't mean it was God. You have no proof that God or prayer had anything to do with it. Your belief is based on what you want to be true. Unfortunately, wanting something to be true isn't enough to make it so.

Also, it is possible to prove that air exists. So don't pull that one on me.

[Eanair]

I've been a Paramedic for 6 years and a Cardiac Telemetry Specialst for about a year now and I can personally say I have seen things happen that can not be explained through logic or scientific theories. I have seen people die, be pronounced dead and then with no interventions apart from prayer come back to life.

So, your stance is that if you can't explain it, God did it?

[SLC Flyfishing]

Just because something unexplainable happens, doesn't mean it was God. You have no proof that God or prayer had anything to do with it. Your belief is based on what you want to be true. Unfortunately, wanting something to be true isn't enough to make it so.

But if we're honest with ourselves, can't we also say that no matter how much some of us may want something to be untrue, doesn't mean that it is in fact untrue.

It's just as easy to say that you have no proof that it wasn't god or prayer that caused this. Unfortunately wanting something to be untrue isn't enough to make it so.

SLC

[The Californian]

Umm...yes it can be proven that air exists.


Please do tell.

[emt1]

But if we're honest with ourselves, can't we also say that no matter how much some of us may want something to be untrue, doesn't mean that it is in fact untrue.

It's just as easy to say that you have no proof that it wasn't god or prayer that caused this. Unfortunately wanting something to be untrue isn't enough to make it so.

SLC

I never said you were wrong, but you say you're right when you have no proof, which doesn't make sense.

I never said that prayer doesn't work, I said that there's no proof that it does.

[drewsof07]

Please do tell.
Ever seen an inflated balloon?

I never said that prayer doesn't work, I said that there's no proof that it does.
People who haven't walked in 20+ years but receive healing may tend to disagree with you.

[The Californian]

So, your stance is that if you can't explain it, God did it?


Nope, my stance is that just because something can't be explained doesnt mean I didn't happen.

[ZiggyPastorius]

I just wanted to share (even though it's not as civil as what emt1 is saying, which I agree with entirely) that I consider the concept being spouted that if I don't pray for a family member or friend who is dying, I am being passive and a horrible person because I'm not doing "everything I can do" both severely pious, but incredibly insulting. Thank you for showing me that while insisting that I treat your religion with every ounce of respect I can while debating it, you will sit by and question my morality, and INSULT the sanctity of the lives of my family members passed away based on the faulty idea that doing something which has been shown to be completely and unequivocally useless (but I suppose God was just ****ing with those tests because he doesn't want us to have any evidence of him, period) should be exercised "just in case."

Before I go, though, I wanted to point out that you have every right to say that, and believe it, and I would not advocate censoring your posts on that subject in any way on these or any other forums, but the blatant two-faced disrespect is mind-bogglingly enraging.

[emt1]

Nope, my stance is that just because something can't be explained doesnt mean I didn't happen.

We never argued that amazing things don't happen, the argument is that there is no proof that God or prayer had anything to do with it.

[Eanair]

People who haven't walked in 20+ years but receive healing may tend to disagree with you.

Have any evidence?

[SLC Flyfishing]

I just wanted to share (even though it's not as civil as what emt1 is saying, which I agree with entirely) that I consider the concept being spouted that if I don't pray for a family member or friend who is dying, I am being passive and a horrible person because I'm not doing "everything I can do" both severely pious, but incredibly insulting. Thank you for showing me that while insisting that I treat your religion with every ounce of respect I can while debating it, you will sit by and question my morality, and INSULT the sanctity of the lives of my family members passed away based on the faulty idea that doing something which has been shown to be completely and unequivocally useless (but I suppose God was just ****ing with those tests because he doesn't want us to have any evidence of him, period) should be exercised "just in case."

Before I go, though, I wanted to point out that you have every right to say that, and believe it, and I would not advocate censoring your posts on that subject in any way on these or any other forums, but the blatant two-faced disrespect is mind-bogglingly enraging.

Nobody has said that you'd be a bad person if you didn't pray for a family member. People have asked if, when put in an extremely desperate situation with seemingly no way out, you'd resort to praying to a higher power. No value judgments have been made either way.

Now lay off the coffee :D

SLC

[emt1]

Ever seen an inflated balloon?

People who haven't walked in 20+ years but receive healing may tend to disagree with you.

I really don't care who agrees or disagrees with. I'm happy that some people have wonderful things happen to them, but nevertheless, there's no evidence that these things have anything to do with God or prayer.

[leekohler]

Nope, my stance is that just because something can't be explained doesnt mean I didn't happen.

So you're trying to prove a negative? :confused:

I really don't care who agrees or disagrees with. I'm happy that some people have wonderful things happen to them, but nevertheless, there's no evidence that these things have anything to do with God or prayer.

Agreed. But just make sure the rest of us aren't negatively affected by a personal belief.

[The Californian]

Ever seen an inflated balloon?

People who haven't walked in 20+ years but receive healing may tend to disagree with you.

So an inflated balloon proves air exists? So basically what you are saying is the effects of object x on object y prove that object x exists? Interesting.

[leekohler]

So an inflated balloon proves air exists? So basically what you are saying is the effects of object x on object y prove that object x exists? Interesting.

You're joking about not being able to prove air exists, right? I mean, seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere

[emt1]

You're joking about not being able to prove air exists, right? I mean, seriously?

These are the arguments of the desperate.

Can't prove that prayer works?
Just argue that air doesn't exist! Problem solved!

[Eanair]

I really don't care who agrees or disagrees with. I'm happy that some people have wonderful things happen to them, but nevertheless, there's no evidence that these things have anything to do with God or prayer.

This about sums it up for me too.

[yg17]

The day I find out that my doctor is praying to try to cure me of an ailment is the day I find a new doctor.

It reminds me of something Sully (the pilot that ditched in the Hudson in case you forgot) said in an interview with Katie Couric. She asked him if he prayed at all during the ordeal, and he said something along the lines "No. Maybe the people in the back of the plane were, but I had a plane to fly"

That's the attitude I want my doctors to have. I would rather they try their damnedest to save me with proven medical treatments and fail than to give up early on those treatments and start praying for me (and still, ultimately fail at saving me)

[SLC Flyfishing]

I never said that prayer doesn't work, I said that there's no proof that it does.

Well there's rarely proof of anything, but I'd say that the NIH feels comfortable with the idea that there's evidence that prayer in fact does often work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895514

and this publication in a nursing journal as well:

http://wjn.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/22/6/706.pdf

CONCLUSION
Despite the limitations of this study, it supports the hypothesis that prayer
was a significant predictor of positive mental health among a sample that
was unusually uniform in its religious characteristics. This relationship
remained strong regardless of age or gender. Nurses might apply these
findings by recognizing prayer as a positive health practice and encouraging
its use across the health-illness continuum among those clients who are
inclined to pray.

October 2000, Vol. 22, No. 6 713

There is a lot of study out there about prayer and health care outcomes. Educate yourself!

SLC

[redwarrior]

The day I find out that my doctor is praying to try to cure me of an ailment is the day I find a new doctor.

It reminds me of something Sully (the pilot that ditched in the Hudson in case you forgot) said in an interview with Katie Couric. She asked him if he prayed at all during the ordeal, and he said something along the lines "No. Maybe the people in the back of the plane were, but I had a plane to fly"

That's the attitude I want my doctors to have. I would rather they try their damnedest to save me with proven medical treatments and fail than to give up early on those treatments and start praying for me (and still, ultimately fail at saving me)
No one gives up when they're praying. The prayer is what keeps them working until something happens.

[The Californian]

We never argued that amazing things don't happen, the argument is that there is no proof that God or prayer had anything to do with it.


In all honesty I'm glad that I believe in a God that I can't explain, dissect, and know everything about, cause if I could ... I would be greater than him, and therefore I would have no need for him.

[leekohler]

Well there's rarely proof of anything, but I'd say that the NIH feels comfortable with the idea that there's evidence that prayer in fact does often work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895514

and this publication in a nursing journal as well:

http://wjn.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/22/6/706.pdf

CONCLUSION
Despite the limitations of this study, it supports the hypothesis that prayer
was a significant predictor of positive mental health among a sample that
was unusually uniform in its religious characteristics. This relationship
remained strong regardless of age or gender. Nurses might apply these
findings by recognizing prayer as a positive health practice and encouraging
its use across the health-illness continuum among those clients who are
inclined to pray.

October 2000, Vol. 22, No. 6 713

There is a lot of study out there about prayer and health care outcomes. Educate yourself!

SLC

It's called the power of positive thinking. It by no means proves the existence of god.

No one gives up when they're praying. The prayer is what keeps them working until something happens.

Again- (no disrespect) but this can be more attributed to the power of positive thinking. It's merely a different method.

[yg17]

No one gives up when they're praying. The prayer is what keeps them working until something happens.


No, I don't want my doctor's brain to wander from his medical treatments to even give a slight focus to prayer.

[SLC Flyfishing]

It's called the power of positive thinking. It by no means proves the existence of god.

Well I suggest you read up then Lee. Don't you think the NIH would see right through that before publishing this sort of stuff? And I didn't mean this to imply evidence for the existence of god, though most would extrapolate from there. The studies merely relate to prayer and positive health outcomes. Maybe it's merely PMA, but like I said, the NIH wouldn't publish a paper if there wasn't a control in place for that, it'd be a huge mistake and the paper would be completely dismissed.

SLC

[emt1]

In all honesty I'm glad that I believe in a God that I can't explain, dissect, and know everything about, cause if I could ... I would be greater than him, and therefore I would have no need for him.

I'm not asking you to dissect or explain God, just provide evidence for his existence.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Well there's rarely proof of anything, but I'd say that the NIH feels comfortable with the idea that there's evidence that prayer in fact does often work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895514

and this publication in a nursing journal as well:

http://wjn.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/22/6/706.pdf

CONCLUSION
Despite the limitations of this study, it supports the hypothesis that prayer
was a significant predictor of positive mental health among a sample that
was unusually uniform in its religious characteristics. This relationship
remained strong regardless of age or gender. Nurses might apply these
findings by recognizing prayer as a positive health practice and encouraging
its use across the health-illness continuum among those clients who are
inclined to pray.

October 2000, Vol. 22, No. 6 713

There is a lot of study out there about prayer and health care outcomes. Educate yourself!

SLC

The consistent factor in this is that all the bases are not covered. Okay, "We're praying for you, Mr. religious guy" "We're not praying for you, Mr. religious guy." In studies that analyse patients with similar conditions, praying for one and not the other and telling them as well as not telling them, there has been found to be no significant difference in health. There is no doubt that faith has an impact on our brains, mood, et cetera...we can see these things happening. Prayer is no different.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1

Just for example.

[Eanair]

Well there's rarely proof of anything, but I'd say that the NIH feels comfortable with the idea that there's evidence that prayer in fact does often work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10895514

From that link you provided:

CONTEXT: This study adds to the existing research on religion and health by focusing on the specific practice of prayer and its relationship to health outcomes. OBJECTIVES: The purpose of this survey is to examine the relationship of frequency of prayer to 8 categories of physical and mental health. DESIGN: The Presbyterian Church, USA, performed data collection as part of an ongoing research program. Members of the Presbyterian Church were randomly selected from the national population and surveyed by mail on their frequency of prayer and their health status, as measured by the Medical Outcomes Study Short-form 36 Health Survey. RESULTS: Self-reports of health indicated a high level of functioning overall for all 8 categories of physical and mental health. People who prayed more often scored lower in their physical functioning and their ability to carry out role activities, and higher in their reports of physical pain. However, people who prayed more often also had significantly higher mental health scores than did those who prayed less frequently, despite their physical health problems. CONCLUSION: This study supports the relationship of a high frequency of prayer with a more positive mental health. Various explanations of the results are explored.

Emphasis mine.

and this publication in a nursing journal as well:

http://wjn.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/22/6/706.pdf

CONCLUSION
Despite the limitations of this study, it supports the hypothesis that prayer
was a significant predictor of positive mental health among a sample that
was unusually uniform in its religious characteristics. This relationship
remained strong regardless of age or gender. Nurses might apply these
findings by recognizing prayer as a positive health practice and encouraging
its use across the health-illness continuum among those clients who are
inclined to pray.

October 2000, Vol. 22, No. 6 713



Emphasis mine.

From these two articles, it appears that the discussion was regarding prayer and mental health/mental outlook.

So, was it that positive mental and emotional outlook that helped, or God?

I agree that prayer, in regards to boosting someone's spirit helps them recover because it may give them emotional strength and help them feel confident in fighting their illness and help them feel more uplifted; however, there is no evidence or journal article that actively says that prayer (thus causing God to intervene) is what helped. If you know of one, please link as I would be genuinely interested to read it.

It's no secret that trying to have a positive outlook when faced with a serious condition will help you recover. These studies seem to suggest that prayer is a means to maintain such an outlook that is conducive to recovering, but not suggesting that prayer will cause a higher power to step in a cause a miracle.

[NoSmokingBandit]

These threads are full of lols.

The whole 'does god exist' argument inevitably ends up at the begnnings of the universe (chain of causation, yadda yadda yadda...).
So in a few posts we'll all end up fighting over god vs big bang.
Has it been proved that God created the universe? No.
Has it been proved the the Big Bang caused the universe to exist? No.

Sure, we can all sit here any furiously type remarks about "imaginary space fairies" or "nothing that caused nothing to do nothing, which then exploded" but unless we can offer any kind of proof we are all just making ourselves look like idiots.


That being said, i'll respond with something thats actually on topic (the original topic, that is).
It seems as though many people in this thread dont understand the difference between the OT and the NT in the Christian Bible. As of the New Testament, the Old Testament laws and prohibitions are defunct. The only rules in the Bible that apply today are those specifically referenced by Jesus.
The NT really doesnt say anything specific about homosexuality (read http://westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html), but leaves it up to the individual to interpret for himself. In fact, most of the NT is based on personal conviction instead of universal rules. Which brings us to the one rule emphasized in the NT: love everyone. Jesus said (cant think of the verse, sorry) that we are just to love each other. This means that two people can come to completely different conclusions about the same thing (some christians dont like long hair on men, others dont care), but we need to accept the other person's point of view instead of separating ourselves because of it. If one's friend chooses to be gay (dont panic, ill explain) then it is a Christians responsibility to love them regardless instead of being a douche and condemning them.

Now, about the choose to be gay line that got you all in a panic. According to the Bible, it is not one's choice to be gay. Now it may sound like i'm contradicting myself, but ill explain more. Everyone has a tendency to sin, the Bible is pretty clear about that. The 'good christian' phrase for this is man's "sin nature." Some people may be inclined to steal, some may be inclined to cheat on their spouse, others may be inclined to be gay. No, the desire to exercise one's gayness is not a sin, but the act itself would be. So a person may have a gay "sin nature" but chooses to exercise his gayness. No Christian who has ever read the Bible would claim that homosexuality is a conscious choice more that its a choice to want to punch someone in the face when they piss you off. Its the act itself that is the sin, not the desire.

I've typed way more than i planned to, and i probably wont be back on to post any more tonight, so dont expect a response from me.

[EricNau]

Has it been proved the the Big Bang caused the universe to exist? No.
Absolutely and by definition.

[SLC Flyfishing]

Was it that positive mental and emotional outlook that helped, or God?

I agree that prayer, in regards to boosting someone's spirit helps them recover because it may give them emotional strength and help them feel confident in fighting their illness; however, there is no evidence or journal article that actively says that prayer (in regards to God intervening) is what helped.

You won't find a peer reviewed study that suggests that god helped, that's just the nature of the scholarly world. But what you will find are tons that suggest prayer did, and that's the only point I intended to make. It was a response to emt1's initial claim which I quoted when I posted the links.

SLC

[The Californian]

You're joking about not being able to prove air exists, right? I mean, seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere


Oh... So Wikipedia proves Air exists... In that case:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

I guess we've solved it. Air and God exist and we've proven it through wikipedia. Good show, cheers.

[leekohler]

Well I suggest you read up then Lee. Don't you think the NIH would see right through that before publishing this sort of stuff? And I didn't mean this to imply evidence for the existence of god, though most would extrapolate from there. The studies merely relate to prayer and positive health outcomes. Maybe it's merely PMA, but like I said, the NIH wouldn't publish a paper if there wasn't a control in place for that, it'd be a huge mistake and the paper would be completely dismissed.

SLC

Prayer is a form of positive thinking. It does not necessitate the existence of a god. I'm not arguing it's not beneficial. Quite the opposite.

[emt1]

Oh... So Wikipedia proves Air exists... In that case:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

I guess we've solved it. Air and God exist and we've proven it through wikipedia. Good show, cheers.

First four words: "God is a deity"

Deity: "A deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural immortal being"

Postulated.

[yg17]

Oh... So Wikipedia proves Air exists... In that case:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

I guess we've solved it. Air and God exist and we've proven it through wikipedia. Good show, cheers.


Scientists have proven that you need oxygen to survive. The fact that we're not all dead means we're breathing in oxygen. Where do you think all of this oxygen is? The air. That's good enough for me.

[leekohler]

Oh... So Wikipedia proves Air exists... In that case:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

I guess we've solved it. Air and God exist and we've proven it through wikipedia. Good show, cheers.

Wow. Well, scientific evidence vs belief? There is no scientific evidence for the existence of a "god". There is for air. We know it exists and know what it is made of. Obviously you have no ability to discern between the two.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Wow. Well, scientific evidence vs belief? There is no scientific evidence for the existence of a "god". There is for air. We know it exists and know what it is made of. Obviously you have no ability to discern between the two.

...or he's just a troll...

[redwarrior]

...or he's just a troll...
Maybe trolls don't need air.:rolleyes:;)

[Eanair]

You won't find a peer reviewed study that suggests that god helped, that's just the nature of the scholarly world. But what you will find are tons that suggest prayer did, and that's the only point I intended to make. It was a response to emt1's initial claim which I quoted when I posted the links.



As far as I know, emt1 was referring to actual medical miracles attributed to a higher power (like someone paralyzed just getting up and walking one day), as opposed to what you're referring to, which I agree completely.

emt1 could probably clarify though.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

You're absolutely correct, there's a lot of things I can't prove. I can't prove air exists, I can only prove the effects of it. That's the same way it is for God, I see the effects of God on the people around me and myself. I've been a Paramedic for 6 years and a Cardiac Telemetry Specialst for about a year now and I can personally say I have seen things happen that can not be explained through logic or scientific theories. I have seen people die, be pronounced dead and then with no interventions apart from prayer come back to life.

So yes, there are a lot of things that can't be proven or explained ... But that doesn't stop you from breathing ... does it?

I absolutely respect your choice to NOT believe in God, that's your free will and I'm not going to shove my beliefs down your throat ... But Jesus has done some amazing things in my life, and I want to tell people. Just like if Chuck Norris saved me from a bunch of ninjas, I'd want to share that too.

Well considering you can freeze air into a tangible visible solid object I'd say that's more than proof enough (really, feeling it, smelling it, tasting it, and to a lesser extent seeing it is proof enough)

QED!

[emt1]

As far as I know, emt1 was referring to actual medical miracles attributed to a higher power (like someone paralyzed just getting up and walking one day), as opposed to what you're referring to, which I agree completely.

emt1 could probably clarify though.

I am looking for evidence that a higher power did... something... anything.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I am looking for evidence that a higher power did... something... anything.
Yes, a single shred of evidence would be nice. If there's absolutely no evidence of something it's nothing more than a fairy tale.

[Eanair]

Well considering you can freeze air into a tangible visible solid object I'd say that's more than proof enough (really, feeling it, smelling it, tasting it, and to a lesser extent seeing it is proof enough)

If you inflate a balloon and submerge the balloon in liquid nitrogen, the nitrogen in the air (in the balloon) slows down so much it turns to a liquid as well and you can see it rolling about in the balloon. Neatest thing ever!

[The Californian]

Well considering you can freeze air into a tangible visible solid object I'd say that's more than proof enough (really, feeling it, smelling it, tasting it, and to a lesser extent seeing it is proof enough)

QED!


I would love to see some frozen air.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I would love to see some frozen air.
Is love italicized because you don't believe it's true? Or is it because you're trying to distract from the single tiny point you were trying to make that was destroyed?

[leekohler]

I would love to see some frozen air.

I still can't believe you're denying that we can prove air exists. Amazing.

[The Californian]

If you inflate a balloon and submerge the balloon in liquid nitrogen, the nitrogen in the air (in the balloon) slows down so much it turns to a liquid as well and you can see it rolling about in the balloon. Neatest thing ever!


Which proves a component of air, but not air itself.

[emt1]

Which proves a component of air, but not air itself.

Instead of debating over whether or not you are breathing a substance, please provide evidence that a higher power exists.

[leekohler]

Which proves a component of air, but not air itself.

Air is a combination of many different gases, all of which we have identified. But go on, please. Keep denying that we know what air is and can prove it exists. It's rather amusing.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Which proves a component of air, but not air itself.
Well then that's something, isn't it? Let's stop debating the overwhelming amount of evidence that air exists* and could you please provide a single shred of evidence that a god exists.


*you can never truly PROVE something, by definition.

[redwarrior]

I think what xbuddycorex is getting at is that you see the evidence of air, but not the actual air, cause it's invisible to the eye. Kinda like God, we see the evidence all around us, but don't actually see Him.

[The Californian]

Is love italicized because you don't believe it's true? Or is it because you're trying to distract from the single tiny point you were trying to make that was destroyed?


Of course I believe in air, we all would be idiots to not believe in it, then again some people believe the world is flat, check out the flat earth society. What I'm saying is that seeing the effects of air is good enough for most to believe in air, but the same does not go for God, which is interesting to me.

[drewsof07]

Which proves a component of air, but not air itself.

I think you should cut your losses at this point. It wouldn't matter how good your analogy was around here. They want God's scalp, or head on a pike as proof.

[leekohler]

I think what xbuddycorex is getting at is that you see the evidence of air, but not the actual air, cause it's invisible to the eye. Kinda like God, we see the evidence all around us, but don't actually see Him.

However, we know what air is and what it is made of, red. The same cannot be said of a god.

[Eanair]

Which proves a component of air, but not air itself.

I was just making a geeky "Wanna know what's cool about air?" point.

[ZiggyPastorius]

I think what xbuddycorex is getting at is that you see the evidence of air, but not the actual air, cause it's invisible to the eye. Kinda like God, we see the evidence all around us, but don't actually see Him.

Oh, jeez, Red...now that you've said that, he's made it his argument. Notice how he says that right after you do?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Of course I believe in air, we all would be idiots to not believe in it, then again some people believe the world is flat, check out the flat earth society. What I'm saying is that seeing the effects of air is good enough for most to believe in air, but the same does not go for God, which is interesting to me.
please provide definitive evidence of the effects of god.

[leekohler]

please provide definitive evidence of the effects of god.

And the physical composition of god.

[drewsof07]

please provide definitive evidence of the effects of god.

He certainly throws everyone here into tantrums :p

And the physical composition of god.
God is not a physical being. According to the bible, there is a spiritual (God's) realm and the worldly (Man's) realm. We are unable to see or interact with heaven until we die, therefore there is no way to bring back a "sample of god." I know you'll say "oh well how convenient for your argument" and such, but thats what we believe.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I think what xbuddycorex is getting at is that you see the evidence of air, but not the actual air, cause it's invisible to the eye. Kinda like God, we see the evidence all around us, but don't actually see Him.
Except you can see air in certain settings, you will never see a god.

[Eanair]

What I'm saying is that seeing the effects of air is good enough for most to believe in air, but the same does not go for God, which is interesting to me.

What do you consider an effect of god that should make us believe in god?

[Iscariot]

You won't find a peer reviewed study that suggests that god helped, that's just the nature of the scholarly world. But what you will find are tons that suggest prayer did, and that's the only point I intended to make. It was a response to emt1's initial claim which I quoted when I posted the links.

SLC

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer, Herbert Benson

Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

(Described as "the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness")

I don't doubt that prayer and faith can be extremely helpful in maintaining good spirits and thus an improvement of reception to care. But taking it any further ascribes a power to it that we see to be false.

[leekohler]

He certainly throws everyone here into tantrums :P

Nope. I'm fine with him. It's his fans who bother me.

[redwarrior]

However, we know what air is and what it is made of, red. The same cannot be said of a god.

Oh, jeez, Red...now that you've said that, he's made it his argument. Notice how he says that right after you do?
Sorry.:o I love you guys and all, but I am a believer. A very wise mentor told me once, not too long ago, not to read these threads if I couldn't resist posting. I guess I should've listened. Carry on!

Oh, and one more thing... I HATE the title of this thread. I have nothing against anyone. period.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Sorry.:o I love you guys and all, but I am a believer. A very wise mentor told me once, not too long ago, not to read these threads if I couldn't resist posting. I guess I should've listened. Carry on!

Oh, and one more thing... I HATE the title of this thread. I have nothing against anyone. period.

It's fine, Red, we still love you :)

[leekohler]

Sorry.:o I love you guys and all, but I am a believer. A very wise mentor told me once, not too long ago, not to read these threads if I couldn't resist posting. I guess I should've listened. Carry on!

Oh, and one more thing... I HATE the title of this thread. I have nothing against anyone. period.

Hey- I have no problems with you either. It's only when people use their beliefs in something they can't prove to keep others down, do I have a problem. And you don't do that.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Oh, and one more thing... I HATE the title of this thread. I have nothing against anyone. period.
I agree! I resisted posting in here simply because I didn't want to read what this thread was about.

*I couldn't resist its siren call...*

[Eanair]

A very wise mentor told me once, not too long ago, not to read these threads if I couldn't resist posting. I guess I should've listened. Carry on!

It's like watching a car accident. You don't really want to, but you can't help it. :p

No worries redwarrior. I've found that generally, we debate a lot, and it can get pretty intense, but usually we're all good in the end.

I feel like there should be a group hug or something...

[ZiggyPastorius]

I agree! I resisted posting in here simply because I didn't want to read what this thread was about.

*I couldn't resist its siren call...*

But, ****, man, as soon as I read "I've never read about Jesus punching people in the face because they didn't believe he was the son of God..." I had to post a link to Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter :D Too much to resist.

"Hello, Jesus, you don't know us because we've never talked to you before. We're the atheists."
"We're taking your second-coming butt down, Jesus. Consider this the thirteenth station of the cross"
*drops wood*
"Let's get on with the conversions"

:D Classic

but usually we're all good in the end.

I feel like there should be a group hug or something...

Red and I, especially :D ;)

[Macky-Mac]

He certainly throws everyone here into tantrums :P

hmmmm, are you sure it isn't the devil that causes those reactions?

[leekohler]

Yes- we love Ms redwarrior. :)

[TuffLuffJimmy]

It's like watching a car accident. You don't really want to, but you can't help it. :p

No worries redwarrior. I've found that generally, we debate a lot, and it can get pretty intense, but usually we're all good in the end.

I feel like there should be a group hug or something...
Should we start making arrangements for the MacRumors WWDC group hug meeting?

[ZiggyPastorius]

Should we start making arrangements for the MacRumors WWDC group hug meeting?

Only if you guys do the decor.

:p:p:p

[redwarrior]

I have to admit that it makes me sad sometimes because I feel misunderstood. But then I realize that I'm not alone in that, cause others that feel at home here, but are judged in the real world, feel the same thing for different reasons. I'm Christian. I'm not against gays. I do believe that the bible says that lifestyle is wrong. But there are Christians that say that drinking is wrong, and I sure as hell do that. Who am I to judge?

Ok, group hug! :D Hugs are kinda boring though. I would prefer a full-blown party, especially since everyone wuvs me.:cool:

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Only if you guys do the decor.

:p:p:p
honey, I couldn't let you do the decor.

[gibbz]

Of course I believe in air, we all would be idiots to not believe in it, then again some people believe the world is flat, check out the flat earth society. What I'm saying is that seeing the effects of air is good enough for most to believe in air, but the same does not go for God, which is interesting to me.

Well actually those flat earth people are idiots. It is a myth that during the middle ages that Christians believed in a flat earth. Read here (http://jameshannam.com/flatearth.htm).

As a scientist, I don't know why science and Christianity cannot coexist. All science attempts to do is explain the physical world in terms that we as humans understand. It in no way proves or denies God's existence, rather offers an explanation of our world as we see it. Now a Christian could take it as humans describing how God and his creations work. A non-believer would simply be content with the theory.

The difference here is that you are taking things described by science and assigning them to a being that you assume is responsible. Whereas, the air example is simply the description offered by science. They are not the same and you are wrong to imply that they are the same above.

[Eanair]

I have to admit that it makes me sad sometimes because I feel misunderstood. But then I realize that I'm not alone in that, cause others that feel at home here, but are judged in the real world, feel the same thing for different reasons. I'm Christian. I'm not against gays. I do believe that the bible says that lifestyle is wrong. But there are Christians that say that drinking is wrong, and I sure as hell do that. Who am I to judge?

Ok, group hug! :D Hugs are kinda boring though. I would prefer a full-blown party, especially since everyone wuvs me.:cool:

*group hug* :) :D

I'm cool with a party. :cool:

[ZiggyPastorius]

honey, I couldn't let you do the decor.

Now I'm confused :confused: I couldn't do the decor, I have no visual talent at all.

[redwarrior]

Now I'm confused :confused: I couldn't do the decor, I have no visual talent at all.
Oh, you have visual talent. Wait, where are we?:cool:

[ZiggyPastorius]

Oh, you have visual talent. Wait, where are we?:cool:

Oh, Ms. Warrior...you flatter... *dramatic 1950's love scene from some random movie...doesn't matter which one...*

Edit: I'm noticing that this thread has gone very off-topic, very fast.

To the bedroom! Er...Privates!

[redwarrior]

Oh, Ms. Warrior...you flatter... *dramatic 1950's love scene from some random movie...doesn't matter which one...*
1950's???? Wasn't all that sexless? Come on, we gotta do better than that.:rolleyes:... and somehow get this back on track.

Edit: you beat me to it, but t... never mind

[Eanair]

So...

About those gays...

EDIT: I have no idea how to get this thread back on topic. It went from Christianity and gays, to evidence for god, to evidence for medical miracles, to evidence for air, to hugging, to decorating. :D

[redwarrior]

Let the person without sin cast the first stone.

[ZiggyPastorius]

1950's???? Wasn't all that sexless? Come on, we gotta do better than that.:rolleyes:... and somehow get this back on track.

Edit: you beat me to it, but t... never mind

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169828&stc=1&d=1241498601

So...about those gays...

Oh yes, I almost forgot...

http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=169829&stc=1&d=1241498675

[The Californian]

I hope you all know that I am in no way trying to call anyone an idiot for not believing in God, it's a personal decision I made and others are free to decide as they choose. My point in starting this thread was to convey a message of Jesus that most Christians forget about and is simply good advice for everyone... Just love others. It really is simple, who am I to sit around and tell people how to live their life? I believe the love changes lives, condemnation hardens hearts.

All that said, I do always enjoy a good debate because it challenges me, and if I don't listen to other arguments against what I believe that truly I'm just being ignorant. It may not change my mind, but it's like exercise.

[localoid]

As an Absurdist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism), I find "Carl Sagan's Religion of Science (http://www.detwiler.us/sagan.html)" by Scott Detwiler to be an interesting read... and Sagan's books and works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan#Bibliography) even more interesting...

Sagan wrote frequently about religion and the relationship between religion and science, expressing his skepticism about the conventional conceptualization of God as a sapient being. Sagan once stated, for instance, that "The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying ... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity." (Carl Sagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan), Wikipedia)

[mactastic]

I appreciate a good word. I agree whole heartedly, however Matthew 7:6 tells us not to cast our pearls before swine.

Your message has fallen on deaf ears. This crowd here is the world that despises and hates Christ. Dust off your sandals and move on to the next town, as this crowd will never listen.

They would rather hate Christians, and call them Bigots, not realizing that very word applies to themselves. Fight the Good Fight, and keep the Faith!
Oh you're SOOO persecuted. :rolleyes:

It's called the power of positive thinking. It by no means proves the existence of god.

Again- (no disrespect) but this can be more attributed to the power of positive thinking. It's merely a different method.
Or the placebo effect. Give people a sugar pill, tell them it's magic and will cure what ails them, and a certain percentage will actually see improvement. Does that mean sugar has curative properties?

I think what xbuddycorex is getting at is that you see the evidence of air, but not the actual air, cause it's invisible to the eye. Kinda like God, we see the evidence all around us, but don't actually see Him.
Difference is, someone who doesn't believe in air and someone who does believe in air can empirically examine the "evidence all around us" of air, and reach the same conclusions time and again.

The same cannot be said of the evidence for God that people claim is "all around us".

The two are not even remotely related propositions.

[Gelfin]

I think what xbuddycorex is getting at is that you see the evidence of air, but not the actual air, cause it's invisible to the eye. Kinda like God, we see the evidence all around us, but don't actually see Him.

Funny thing, IIRC you're from Georgia or thereabouts. I've spent years trying to explain to the Cali-folk what it's like to have a 100% humidity day in August where you actually can see the air. ;)

[leekohler]

Funny thing, IIRC you're from Georgia or thereabouts. I've spent years trying to explain to the Cali-folk what it's like to have a 100% humidity day in August where you actually can see the air. ;)

Georgia has the most evil weather I've ever experienced. Hot and humid in the summer, and cold and extremely damp in the winter. It's rough.

[Gelfin]

Georgia has the most evil weather I've ever experienced. Hot and humid in the summer, and cold and extremely damp in the winter. It's rough.

It's not just the Southern Baptists that keep me on the other side of the continent, I'll tell you that. ;)