Experiences of VirtualPC [Archive]

oingoboingo

Apr 28, 2004, 08:08 AM

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of VirtualPC? It would be useful to be able to run some work related Windows software (Word, PowerPoint and Visual Studio) on my iBook and I was wondering if VirtualPC was up to the job.

Thanks
AppleStrudle

First up, there are native versions of Microsoft Word and PowerPoint available for Mac OS X. You will be better off running those, rather than attempting to emulate a full Windows environment just to run Word, no matter how good Virtual PC is.

That said, Virtual PC isn't all that fast. On my 1GHz 12" PowerBook, Virtual PC 6 runs well enough so that if I absolutely have no other choice, I can run some Windows software on my Mac. I wouldn't want to run an important application through Virtual PC though...it feels like a Pentium II 300MHz or 350MHz. If your bread and butter is Microsoft Office and Microsoft Visual Studio, then I would be questioning why you would want to run a Mac at all...you'd be much better off with a real PC.

Maybe this sounds too negative. Virtual PC does its job well (ie: emulating a PC environment to run Windows on), and does so at a usable speed on iBook class hardware. However, it is nowhere near native speed by any stretch of the imagination, and if I personally had to use Virtual PC to run a Windows app for 8 hours a day to get my work done, I'd be quietly packing the iBook away somewhere safe, and getting my hands on a real PC. It's fine for casual use, but it's just not fast enough for day-in, day-out use on something like an iBook.

stuuke

Apr 28, 2004, 08:32 AM

Stay away. I had an older version and it was almost impossible to work in. I purchased a newer version with reports of greatly increased speed and it still barely chugs through. You would be better off getting a cheap used pc.

Horrortaxi

Apr 28, 2004, 09:57 AM

I have version 6 and lukily I find myself using it less and less. On my dual 1ghz G4 it emulates a Pentium II 666mhz. It's sluggish and is only a good choice when you don't have any other choice.

Office is available for the Mac.

Visual Studio--you're on your own there. I'm not sure how it does in Virtual PC. We're boardering on my own psychopathic Microsoft issues at the moment so I'll just say this: If you want to program for Windows, maybe you should just run Windows.

AppleStrudle

Apr 28, 2004, 10:02 AM

Thanks people.

Mostly I use my MAC for doing MAC stuff, but once in a while it would be useful to be able to work on things for my job (mostly Windows unfortunately). It's starting to sound like finding a second hand Window's laptop is a better bet.

darraghsmyth

Apr 28, 2004, 12:21 PM

Mostly I use my MAC for doing MAC stuff, but once in a while it would be useful to be able to work on things for my job (mostly Windows unfortunately). It's starting to sound like finding a second hand Window's laptop is a better bet

:mad: I'm in exactly the same position - I'm looking in to buying a 12" PB for primarily MAC stuff. I intend to use MS Office for Mac as much as I can but I just know that occasionally I will need to use VPC for work-related stuff (cause they don't support mac's ...).

sympathies.

Visual Studio is a pretty hungry app, which I use myself. I'd limit that to a windows box, if possible.

Can you use the VPC to remote-desktop-in to a *real* PC that runs your Visual Studio?

d

Koodauw

Apr 28, 2004, 01:39 PM

I have version 6 and lukily I find myself using it less and less. On my dual 1ghz G4 it emulates a Pentium II 666mhz. It's sluggish and is only a good choice when you don't have any other choice.

I would agree. I think my Penituim II 233 is actually faster than VPC. I would avoid VPC if you can.

I hear it is slightly better if you run Windows 98, or a less system hogging OS.

vwguy

Apr 28, 2004, 01:54 PM

I had a client who demonstrated some pretty serious CAD-CAM software (Windows Platform) on his PB 12" using VPC and it runs fairly well with no apparent hiccups or so. All of us were pretty impressed by it...

As for me.... I was drooling all the time... :)

mactastic

Apr 28, 2004, 02:25 PM

gekko513

Apr 28, 2004, 02:55 PM

Is it possible to copy and paste between an OS running in Virtual PC and Mac OS X?

jeremy.king

Apr 28, 2004, 02:58 PM

Mostly I use my MAC for doing MAC stuff

What exactly is MAC Stuff? (and its Mac, BTW)

I would recommend you just get a dirt cheap PC, especially if you are thinking Visual Studio. Don't bother on VPC, unless you have a lot of time to watch compilers work.

Horrortaxi

Apr 28, 2004, 03:19 PM

Is it possible to copy and paste between an OS running in Virtual PC and Mac OS X?
Yes.

BrianKonarsMac

Apr 28, 2004, 05:47 PM

Okay people, let's face it. Virtual PC is garbage, if your doing actual work in a business environment, and they DO NOT USE Mac software or hardware, THEN WHAT GOOD WILL YOU USING Mac SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE DO? There is no Visual Studio for the Mac, nor many of the Windows only programs that are required in a business type setting, thus the reason mac's don't fit in so well. Sure they connect no problem, and play nice on the network, but they don't run the x86 software your company is using, and Virtual PC is not up to the task of running anything. Your better off finding OS X native alternatives (if your company will allow this) or using a Windows machine to do your Windows work.

a bargain-bin PC will blow away your emulation of Windows (until Microsoft eventually releases VPC 7...then we'll see).

Summary: VPC is bunk. Your money and time would be better invested in using actual x86 hardware and actual versions of the software. Use the Mac for personal computing, but it looks like your professional work will have to be relegated to a PC for the forseeable future (CMON VPC 7!).

vwguy

Apr 28, 2004, 06:24 PM

I have to agree with BrianKonarsMac to a certain extent... First of all, I don't think that VPC is totally garabge (although VPC 7 would be really great!). It does provide users a sufficient level of Windows workable enviorment but it would not be the same as having a Intel PC. My analogy may be wrong but it would be something like.... would you drive a sedan car thru the jungle instead of a Hummer although both of them have four wheels rolling on the road?

VPC 6.1 (windows PC Professional version) costs about $250. With that kind of money, I would probably buy a lower end PC and runs windows program more efficiently than using VPC.

Just my $0.02.... P-E-A-C-E

el_grapadora

Apr 28, 2004, 08:18 PM

...there's always remote desktop client. that's assuming the wintel box has XP. i just remembered about it myself, and so i'm going to test out some gaming by accessing a wintel box over the LAN i have at my house.

it seems silly to have a windows box just for vpc. but it seems like it could work out well if you have a network at home. don't know what you would do away from home, though.

~el_g

&RU

Apr 28, 2004, 10:01 PM

Under similar circumstances I purchased Office v.X Pro, with VPC included. Office works as Office is expected to work, however VPC is bundled with XP. XP really needs the latest and greatest hardware to run, so in VPC it barely runs at all. Apparently Win98 and 2000 run much better. So, you can cough up for an older copy of Windows, or an older PC. The older PC will perform better, but will likely cost more, take up valuable space and generally be ugly.

Celeron

Apr 28, 2004, 10:11 PM

I'm not familiar with Virtual PC on the Mac platform, but I run Virtual PC 2004 on my PC and its pretty damn handy. Like other people have metioned, its not going to break any speed records. Even on my P4 3.2ghz its not terribly fast. I use it when I need to test something in Linux, or Windows 2000 Server without having actually load those operating systems on actual machines.

With regard to copying and pasting between the host OS and the virtual OS, this should work without a problem. In virtual PC 2004 I can copy and paste between Linux and Windows just fine.

You can do some neat stuff if you install the add-ons, which only work in Windows operating systems. Once the addons are installed you can move the mouse in and out of the window and/or drag and drop files from the host OS and the virtual OS.

Again, I know this applies to Virtual PC 2004. I'm not sure about Virtual PC for the Mac platform though because I've never used it, nor do I have a reason to.

FoxyKaye

Apr 28, 2004, 11:14 PM

Virtual...

PC...

works...

fine...

for...

me (G4/500, emulating a PII/266)...

it's...

just...

really...

slow. :D

Seriously, though, run everything you can get for OSX native on the Mac - you'll thank yourself when you're waiting 5 minutes to open Word in a VPC window. I've got installations of both Win2K and WinXP on my VPC, and the WinXP installation is noticably slower. If you're going to go with using VPC, I'd say that Win2K is a fine version to emulate for everyday Windows tasks. However, I'm not sure how much slower or faster having a G3 iBook with a higher chip speed than my desktop would affect VPC's performance.

I tend to agree with the other postings that laying hands on a secondhand PII or PIII will blow VPC on a Mac out of the water, however, if you're looking for portability with your iBook then I'd say give VPC a try (maybe if you bought it these days, M$ would give you a discounted or free update to VPC7).

Grimace

Apr 29, 2004, 12:16 AM

Virtual PC for Mac and Virtual PC for Windows are completely different beasts.

If you want to run MS Office, buy it for Mac. If you HAVE to have a PC program - you can use VPC if it's once in a while. If it's every day, buy a dell.

Bhennies

Apr 29, 2004, 01:52 AM

oingoboingo

Apr 29, 2004, 03:44 AM

I'm trying to convince my Mom to get a Powerbook, but she has two stupid windows only programs for work that she must use on her new computer. She wants a Mac really badly, but cannot be without these programs. They are in no way processor intensive programs (tax programs- she's a cpa). That kind of thing should run ok, no? Thanks...

Something like a tax program which is probably spending most of its time just accepting user input into various forms will run OK under Virtual PC. However, it won't feel as responsive as it does on a Windows machine, even a PC which is several hundred MHz slower than the PowerBook. It depends on what your level of tolerance is. If your mother needs to spend all day working with these two Windows programs in her job as a CPA, the slow speed of VPC might start to frustrate her after a while. But if she only needs to use the Windows software occasionally, it might be fine.

I don't know if you live close to an Apple Store or an Apple dealer, but they may have Virtual PC installed on one of their demo systems and you can try it out for yourself to see if the speed will be acceptable for your (or your mother's) needs. I can't advocate piracy, but there are always the <cough-looks-other-way> 'free trial copies' that you can find on many P2P networks that may also be able to give you the necessary insight into whether it is worth buying Virtual PC, or just spending your money on a cheap 2nd-hand PC for those occasional Windows tasks.

aswitcher

Apr 29, 2004, 03:52 AM

Does VPC cop issues with spyware and viruses, just like real windoze, or does the emulation frag any such infections when it shuts down VPC?

AppleStrudle

Apr 29, 2004, 04:10 AM

What exactly is MAC Stuff? (and its Mac, BTW)

I would recommend you just get a dirt cheap PC, especially if you are thinking Visual Studio. Don't bother on VPC, unless you have a lot of time to watch compilers work.

Mac (appologies ;) ) stuff is email, web browsing and writing programs in Java or Objective-C.

CmdrLaForge

Apr 29, 2004, 04:26 AM

I would recommend you just get a dirt cheap PC, especially if you are thinking Visual Studio. Don't bother on VPC, unless you have a lot of time to watch compilers work.

Ever worked with Visual Studio ? With a dirt cheap PC you will not be happy.

Question: I already own Windows 2000. Can I just purchase Virtual PC without a copy of Windows and install then from my original CDs ?

Thanks

crenz

Apr 29, 2004, 04:49 AM

So maybe I'm stupid or overly patient, but I use VPC6 on a PowerBook 15" 1.25 Ghz regularly. I've made a fair amount of money doing Windows programming using Visual Studio on that PowerBook. :cool: Giving it a good chunk of RAM (384 MB out of my 768 MB) probably helps.

|_wise_|

Apr 29, 2004, 05:29 AM

Question: I already own Windows 2000. Can I just purchase Virtual PC without a copy of Windows and install then from my original CDs ?

Thanks

Yes - you can use your copy of windows 2000.

We use virtual pc at work for support and pre sales. Basically it is alright but it runs like an absoloute dog. If you think about it it has to emulate every piece of hardware that a computer has with software, obviously this is going to be very inefficient.

A very viable option, and the option that i will be taking when my 12" ibook arrives is to use Remote Desktop Connection (as has been mentioned).

If you have ever used terminal services on a pc, this is just the mac client for connecting to your pc. Basically it just means that the output from the pc is been duplicated on your mac, and the input from your mac is sent to the pc. As long as you have a decent connection (even 15kb/sec works absoloutely fine for me) then the speed will be almost as good as if you were on the pc itself! Very handy if you work in a pc environment.

I'm working part time and studying full time, it means that when at uni i can access our servers at work over the wireless network and access all our applications for support :)

I appreciate that this isn't an option for those with a mac or two at home, but otherwise definatley worth trying! you won't be disappointed.

note: the download of the client is only 1mb!!

darraghsmyth

Apr 29, 2004, 06:49 AM

A very viable option, and the option that i will be taking when my 12" ibook arrives is to use Remote Desktop Connection (as has been mentioned).

This is a RDC from the Mac or from the Virtual PC? I take it from the former?

Does this require much "Mac-friendly work" on behalf of the PC network administrators or will it just "plug & play" if you know the server & login details you're trying to connect to?

d

Horrortaxi

Apr 29, 2004, 09:55 AM

Does VPC cop issues with spyware and viruses, just like real windoze, or does the emulation frag any such infections when it shuts down VPC?
VPC makes your Windows (or DOS, or Linux) installation into an image, so to the Mac it just looks like 1 file. I think of VPC like an ant farm. Anything bad that can happen in Windows (spyware, adware, viruses, trojans, bad user experience) can happen in your emulated Windows environment. However, none of it can spread to your Mac.

rosalindavenue

Apr 29, 2004, 10:37 AM

There has been some mention in this thread of the Remote Desktop Connection-- does anyone routinely use a Mac to log in to a Windows network? How well does it work? How about GoToMyPC? Can you log in to a GoToMyPC account on a PC at work from a Mac at home? Fear of compatability problems with Remote Desktop and GoToMyPC has (in the past) stopped me from getting a mac for home-- I use RDC to log into my business network at home; my wife uses GoToMyPC to log into hers....

aswitcher

Apr 29, 2004, 12:12 PM

VPC makes your Windows (or DOS, or Linux) installation into an image, so to the Mac it just looks like 1 file. I think of VPC like an ant farm. Anything bad that can happen in Windows (spyware, adware, viruses, trojans, bad user experience) can happen in your emulated Windows environment. However, none of it can spread to your Mac.

Is there no option for a safe / protected mode that keeps everything in RAM and when you shut it down nothing is saved?

Rower_CPU

Apr 29, 2004, 12:20 PM

wrldwzrd89

Apr 29, 2004, 12:22 PM

Is there no option for a safe / protected mode that keeps everything in RAM and when you shut it down nothing is saved?
You're in luck - the latest VPC has a feature called Undo Drives, which basically saves any changes made to the image during your VPC session to a changes file, and only merges the changes when you tell it to. You can also tell it to revert to the last merged state, thus ignoring all your changes. This feature makes VPC pretty well sandboxed - not only can PC viruses/trojans/spyware not affect your Mac, but the changes they make can actually be rolled back, as if they never happened. I used this feature when I had VPC; I don't need it anymore.

aswitcher

Apr 29, 2004, 12:31 PM

You're in luck - the latest VPC has a feature called Undo Drives, which basically saves any changes made to the image during your VPC session to a changes file, and only merges the changes when you tell it to. You can also tell it to revert to the last merged state, thus ignoring all your changes. This feature makes VPC pretty well sandboxed - not only can PC viruses/trojans/spyware not affect your Mac, but the changes they make can actually be rolled back, as if they never happened. I used this feature when I had VPC; I don't need it anymore.

Thanks. Undo drives is great news. I wont need to splash out on virus software as well. It would be even better if they allowed multiple states to be permanently kept.

dbauer

Apr 29, 2004, 01:28 PM

:mad: I'm in exactly the same position - I'm looking in to buying a 12" PB for primarily MAC stuff. I intend to use MS Office for Mac as much as I can but I just know that occasionally I will need to use VPC for work-related stuff (cause they don't support mac's ...).

sympathies.

Visual Studio is a pretty hungry app, which I use myself. I'd limit that to a windows box, if possible.

Can you use the VPC to remote-desktop-in to a *real* PC that runs your Visual Studio?

d

Even better, Microsoft has a remote desktop client that run in OSX that will let you remote into your Windows desktop, and its free.

The RDC is really a Terminal services client (admins out there know what I mean), which means that you have to install Win2k Admin toolkit on the Windows boxes you what to control, if they are Win2k Pro; Win2k Server has these services built in. WinXP is built in too.

The only thing keeping me from using a Mac for work is that I can't VPN because our firewall requires Sygate Personal Firewall service to be running on the desktop and they don't make a Mac version of that. I could use Virtual PC but from the other posts in this thread, I don't think my G3 900 will perform well enough.

goodwill

Apr 29, 2004, 04:03 PM

I run AutoCad on my TiBook. It beats buying a PC for home, but I do most of my work on a PC in the office so VPC is a stopgap for at home and in the field work. It does that ok, but it's not fun to do any major work on it.

Mactastic-

How has it been working with Auto Cad? I would be using it for architecture and rendering and I didn't know how the performance was on the Mac. Considering Vector Works is not an option at all for me I'd be interested in knowing about the performance of Auto Cad, especially for the Mac and if you had any insight to offer.

As far as the question related to the thread regarding Virtual PC, I had stated it in a previous post and basically after reading everyones post above mine, I think their perspectives are very much in line with my own. I thought getting Virtual PC to handle MS Office tasks was my remedy. I didn't even want to do any research because I was such a recent "switcher" and I was getting frustrated learning more and more about how excellent my Mac really was. Needless to say and to sum it up quickly, I was talked out of it by the guy at the Apple Store here in Houston. Several customers overheard me and to my luck they took part in the discussion I was having and said Virtual PC was not the way to go due to how it slows down your Mac. I am grateful for their insight and I think anyone through this site has valuable and very knowledgable information to deplore on your behalf.

mactastic

Apr 29, 2004, 05:39 PM

Mactastic-

How has it been working with Auto Cad? I would be using it for architecture and rendering and I didn't know how the performance was on the Mac. Considering Vector Works is not an option at all for me I'd be interested in knowing about the performance of Auto Cad, especially for the Mac and if you had any insight to offer.

It pretty much sucks for AutoCad work. It's slow, and VPC doesn't access the video card so rendering times are slow and there is no dual-monitor capability. I wouldn't want to do production work on it. I use it because AutoCad is the only program I use on a regular basis that I can't get for the Mac OS.

Having said that, it works for the times I want/need to do some revisions to drawings on the road, or at home on the weekends. It beats carrying around a PC notebook in my opinion. I may buy a PC desktop for home if I start to do a lot of design there, but I'll never buy a PC laptop. (My bag is heavy enough already!) VPC is certainly functional enough to do what I need it to do in a pinch. Hopefully one of two things will happen someday - either Autodesk will get around to porting their stuff to OS X, or VPC 7 will vastly improve the speed and ability to adress the video card. Personally I'd rather see AutoCad running native in OS X, but I'm not holding my breath waiting.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions that I haven't answered here.

Stevp1

Apr 29, 2004, 06:41 PM

I use VPC running XP regularly to remote in to a couple of servers. I couldn't get the Mac RDC to see both servers on the network, but the XP RDC doesn't have any issues at all. I get reasonable performance as well.

17" PB, 1GB ram (512 of it going to VPC!)

crenz

Apr 29, 2004, 07:14 PM

It would be even better if they allowed multiple states to be permanently kept.

You can just duplicate a Virtual PC to "keep" a state. The downside is that it will copy the entire hard drive image, including the whole installation of the operating system.

You can also choose to mount disk images as harddisks, so if you just need to keep states of your data, you can use these.

|_wise_|

Apr 29, 2004, 11:40 PM

This is a RDC from the Mac or from the Virtual PC? I take it from the former?

Does this require much "Mac-friendly work" on behalf of the PC network administrators or will it just "plug & play" if you know the server & login details you're trying to connect to?

d

the RDC is from the Mac.

It requires NO "mac-friendly work" on the pc network admins. As for as they are concerned it is just another terminal services client!

Awimoway

Apr 30, 2004, 02:22 AM

AppleStrudle

Apr 30, 2004, 04:16 AM

This is a little imprecise, admittedly, but I would say that VPC is usable with a G4 with plenty of RAM but not with a G3 (I don't know what kind of iBook you have). On a G4, it's not a lot slow, but it is a little slow. Just enough to be unnerving. If your needs are occasional, VPC is a better choice than a supplemental PC laptop. If you will be using Windows often, you should get a PC.

I only need to run Windows apps. occasionally. I have a desktop PC at home but carry the iBook with me when I travel. Mostly I just use it for collecting my work email when on the road - but once in a while I have to edit a Powerpoint presentation or tweak some Windows C++ code. I have an 800MHz G4 iBook.

I think I'll go into my Mac dealer and ask for a VPC demo.

Thanks everyone.