Apple Sweeps Consumer Reports' Laptop Recommendations

[Speedy2]

I would suggest that the Macbook is powerful enough for most consumers. However, I wouldn't mind an BTO option for a 9600M. That's the real problem. Not enough options.


You forget that you can't just BTO anything into any notebook design.

The Macbook apparently isn't designed to handle the heat and power supply requirements of a discrete GPU.
The MBP's design can't handle quadcores or top-of-the range GPUs.

Before you cry "omg what a crappy design", think again.
The machines could never keep their form factors and weights if they had to include power hungry and hotplate BTO options.

If you think that the form factor or weight is largely irrelevant, you might be looking at the wrong product FOR YOU. Other people care about these things, and they have their reasons, right?

[str1f3]

Both Apple and M$ have it wrong. M$ is talking out their a** because Windows generally stinks, and all the PCs run Windows. The other problem M$ has is many of the "affordable" laptops they praise in their commercials are low end crap. You simply can't build a 14-16" laptop for $600-800 and not have it be a piece of junk.

Now Apple on the other hand is stupid and foolish not to have 2 laptop lines - a consumer line and a pro line so they'd have 2 models of each screen size providing an 'affordable' line for consumers and a 'beefy' line for business/professionals/power-users. Apple could produce a decent 15" laptop in the $1600 range instead of the minimum entry point being $2500. Some people simply don't need the highest horsepower (CPU/GPU) or all the bells and whistles - they just need a 15" screen. If Apple would have been smart about this, there would have been nothing remotely legitimate for M$ to complain about providing no bite to the commercials.

Both companies have some issues, M$ blowing smoke, and Apple being stubborn dorks. So come on guys, get real and knock off the nonsense. Hopefully most consumers can see past the crap from both camps. :mad:

I wouldn't mind a MBP being cheaper but anybody would take that offer. If you feel that way you can always get a used MBP for that price. They are as pristine as the new ones. The only thing is that it doesn't come in a fancy box.

[PeterQC]

Right, same here. I love forums. I've made hundreds of posts here discussing iPod touches, and yet I'm not buying one until September.

You're the kind of user that I was to see there more often.

[Beric]

The all-in-one is a cute concept but I've found it tough to have your display permanently afixed to your hardware. I would have loved to get iMacs for my department but my superiors are terrified at sending the entire machine back for repairs.

The Mac mini is easy to swap but very lacking for its price. There's no onsite repairs either.

Interesting to hear an opinion on the Apple desktop lineup from a business perspective. Would you have had a hard time getting hypothetical upgradeable Apple towers for your department?

[Speedy2]

But aren't macs supposed to be the premier choice for professional work, with photos, graphics, and video? You underestimate the usefulness and flexibility of a portable workstation.

MBPs were NEVER intented to be 3D workstations or gamer machines. And these are pretty much the only areas where you NEED a fast GPU. As fast as it gets.

Jeez, when do people finally realise that the GPU is pretty irrelevant for Photoshop and Final Cut Pro?

Only recently this has started to become a topic (OpenCL etc). Not that this makes the GPU relevant at the moment, because there are no mainstream applications yet. There will be the time when applications rely more on GPUs and that's when Apple HAS to put faster ones in their laptops. Until then ...


Oh, and the 9600M isn't that bad.

[Beric]

MBPs were NEVER intented to be 3D workstations or gamer machines. And these are pretty much the only areas where you NEED a fast GPU. As fast as it gets.

Jeez, when do people finally realise that the GPU is pretty irrelevant for Photoshop and Final Cut Pro?

Only recently this has started to become a topic (OpenCL etc). Not that this makes the GPU relevant at the moment, because there are no mainstream applications yet. There will be the time when applications rely more on GPUs and that's when Apple HAS to put faster ones in their laptops. Until then ...


Oh, and the 9600M isn't that bad.

And what's your opinion on quad-core in the MBP's, out of interest?

[Eidorian]

Interesting to hear an opinion on the Apple desktop lineup from a business perspective. Would you have had a hard time getting hypothetical upgradeable Apple towers for your department?Not at all considering we're using Mac minis to replace 5-7 year old Power Macs.

[Goona]

There's no doubt that Mac users love their computers more than PC users. PC users buy a computer to use. Mac users buy a computer first to love and then to use. As a Mac user I know this first hand. Therefore we tend to forgive their "issues" a little more than PC users.:rolleyes:

[Eidorian]

Jeez, when do people finally realise that the GPU is pretty irrelevant for Photoshop and Final Cut Pro?GPU acceleration in CS4 and Motion.

[Beric]

Not at all considering we're using Mac minis to replace 5-7 year old Power Macs.

Wow. Are the computing power requirements for a business really down that much these days?

[iMacmatician]

Even considering the heat restrictions, the MacBook Pro could have higher-resolution displays on the 15", faster CPUs all around, and more customization options.

If you think that the form factor or weight is largely irrelevant, you might be looking at the wrong product FOR YOU. Other people care about these things, and they have their reasons, right?How about people who care for performance, they have their reasons, right?

MBPs were NEVER intented to be 3D workstations or gamer machines. And these are pretty much the only areas where you NEED a fast GPU. As fast as it gets.

Jeez, when do people finally realise that the GPU is pretty irrelevant for Photoshop and Final Cut Pro?The MacBook Pro isn't the best in CPU either…

[Eidorian]

Wow. Are the computing power requirements for a business really down that much these days?FileMaker, Office 2004/2008, and the occasional Adobe product.

All of this was done before on 800 MHz - 1.25 GHz G4s and a few G5s.

[Speedy2]

I have no problems. I wouldn't say I do crazy intensive stuff. But I do build 3D models and renderings quite frequently. My MBP has handled all of Autodesks major 3D modeling software and other rendering programs with no real problems other than this thing gets hot.

It's not as fast as a MacPro, but I can carry it around.



I'm not saying it's impossible to do CAD / 3D modelling on a MBP. It highly depends on the complexity of your models and your patience :)

If you want a true CAD workhorse, there's no way around a Quadro or Fire GL chip since ATI and Nvidia have deactived several important CAD features in their mainstream GPUs.

[vipergts2207]

I'm not saying it's impossible to do CAD / 3D modelling on a MBP. It highly depends on the complexity of your models and your patience :)

If you want a true CAD workhorse, there's no way around a Quadro or Fire GL chip since ATI and Nvidia have deactived several important CAD features in their mainstream GPUs.

My MBP worked just fine with Autodesk Inventor 2008. The models weren't complex, but it worked.

[thejadedmonkey]

MBPs are neither 3D graphics workstations nor hardcore gamer machines. If you need one, you're looking at the wrong product. Buy one of these HP Elitebooks or Dell Precisions or XPSes. Starting at around 2k USD.

Then what are they for?

[Speedy2]

Even considering the heat restrictions, the MacBook Pro could have higher-resolution displays on the 15", faster CPUs all around, and more customization options.

What makes you think you can just flip in a faster CPU and NOT need an appropriate cooling system? If you have ideas how to achieve that, you might wanna try and work for Intel or AMD.

Afair they use one of the fastest available mobile dual core CPUs already. (2.93Ghz)

The MBP has it's drawbacks, the CPU isn't among them if you compare it with the competition.

You are spot-on tho with the 15" resolution...

[flopticalcube]

Then what are they for?
Posing in Starbucks, of course.

[Eidorian]

Posing in Starbucks, of course.Seems that way.

[NT1440]

Wow. Are the computing power requirements for a business really down that much these days?

In a normal business environment (not dealing with video editing or stuff like that) it would pretty hard to find a computer that couldnt do word documents, spreadsheets, and some emailing.

There is nothing taxing about that kind of work for a computer.

[flopticalcube]

Seems that way.
Saw one just the other day. Looked around after he opened the laptop just to see who was looking. I took my $1.60 cup of coffee and left.

[amac4me]

Redmond can make all the ads the want ... they can't dispute the fact that Apple MacBooks smoked the very same Windows PCs featured in Microsoft's recent ads. :cool:

[Speedy2]

Wow. Are the computing power requirements for a business really down that much these days?

Down?
A Mac Mini is surprisingly fast for its form factor.
The requirements for standard business clients have always been very low in average. I wonder why that surprises you? The majority of people only use text processing, spreadsheets, the odd custom stoneage application, and a screensaver that maxes out GPU and CPU :)

[flopticalcube]

In a normal business environment (not dealing with video editing or stuff like that) it would pretty hard to find a computer that couldnt do word documents, spreadsheets, and some emailing.

There is nothing taxing about that kind of work for a computer.
Which is why integrated graphics has such a huge market share.

[Eidorian]

In a normal business environment (not dealing with video editing or stuff like that) it would pretty hard to find a computer that couldnt do word documents, spreadsheets, and some emailing.

There is nothing taxing about that kind of work for a computer.Plenty of basic office software doesn't even need more than 1 GHz. I know that tax software still reads 233 MHz or a PowerPC G3.

[Eidorian]

Which is why integrated graphics has such a huge market share.Google Earth runs surprisingly well on an Intel Extreme Graphics 2. I remember showing it off on a tower with just that and a Celeron 3.06 GHz.

[Speedy2]

GPU acceleration in CS4 and Motion.


Yeah for some simple scaling tasks.

Let's discuss this again when all the filters and effects are fully optimised for GPU usage. Then you'll start to see some real productivity improvements. Looking at how slow Adobe is, probably in CS6 or something.

[dejo]

Saw one just the other day. Looked around after he opened the laptop just to see who was looking. I took my $1.60 cup of coffee and left.
$1.60 for a cup of coffee at Starbucks? Yeah, right. ;)

[Eidorian]

Yeah for some simple scaling tasks.

Let's discuss this again when all the filters and effects are fully optimised for GPU usage. Then you'll start to see some real productivity improvements. Looking at how slow Adobe is, probably in CS6 or something.Core Image then?

[flopticalcube]

$1.60 for a cup of coffee at Starbucks? Yeah, right. ;)
Yep. Just a plain tall (its your small size, why call it tall?) filter coffee. Only posers drink venti skinny soy caramel lattes.

[iMacmatician]

Afair they use one of the fastest available mobile dual core CPUs already. (2.93Ghz)Only for a BTO on the top two models.

[vipergts2207]

Yep. Just a plain tall (its your small size, why call it tall?) filter coffee. Only posers drink venti skinny soy caramel lattes.

Or maybe it's because they like them? You sure like labeling people. Calling everyone posers must make you feel better about your self huh?

[Speedy2]

And what's your opinion on quad-core in the MBP's, out of interest?

There are far more applications out there that benefit from more cores than from GPUs. Still, you'll only get the full "times two" performance boost in a few applications mostly rendering and video encoding. Not even the video editing apps are properly optimised for more than two cores.

Apple will put a quad core in their MBPs at some point. My guess is, it will be this year. It all depends on Intel's ability to deliver an affordable low power quad core CPU. At the moment they are insanely priced and/or not really "low power" enough.

In the long run, it will be interesting to see, how much really can be done on GPUs and how much significance a multi-core CPU will have. Current GPUs outperform current quad-core CPUs by a factor of 10 in some specific tasks.

[dejo]

Yep. Just a plain tall (its your small size, why call it tall?) filter coffee. Only posers drink venti skinny soy caramel lattes.
Non-posers don't even go to Starbucks. ;)

[Speedy2]

Only for a BTO on the top two models.

In other words, in 2/3 of their MBP models ;-)
You kind of claimed that you couldn't get fast CPUs in a MBP. You can, but it's expensive. I agree that they could make it available for the 2k 15" model too, but that's just the way Apple is ...

On the other hand, if you really NEED the fastest available CPU, it is quite likely, that you won't care that much about the cost of the hardware since the person to work on that machine will cost twice that amount in one month.

[flopticalcube]

Or maybe it's because they like them? You sure like labeling people. Calling everyone posers must make you feel better about your self huh?
Why, yes it does. Thank you for asking.

Non-posers don't even go to Starbucks. ;)
There doesn't seem to be any other coffee shops left.

Anyway, its late and the nurse hasn't been around with my medication so I must sign off now...

[iMacmatician]

Apple will put a quad core in their MBPs at some point. My guess is, it will be this year.I could see that happening but I'm not betting on it.

In other words, in 2/3 of their MBP models ;-)Sort of, yeah.

[LagunaSol]

Anyway got a job interview tmr. Going to sleep.

Tell Mr. Ballmer hello for us.

[Goona]

Tell Mr. Ballmer hello for us.

:D

[Speedy2]

Core Image then?


Well, I guess an integrated / slow discrete GPU is fine for that. OS X would run slow as hell otherwise on most Macs ;)

[ROBARMY]

Dell's have a backlit keyboard, multitouch (ohhh glass who cares) gimmick, and doesn't need the broken magsafe, and it also has the form factor.

How about Blu-ray, HDMI, superior graphics cards (up to 1GB of GDDR3 memory), fingerprint scanner, and far far cheaper. I'd rather have a gig of video RAM and a fast CPU than some gimmick multitouch you'll never actually use.

You can tell each time IWantItThatWay and a few others post something their just sucking you in.... Stop arguing with the idiot and be done with it..... FINGERPRINT SCANNER>>> ROFL
Everyones got their own pinions but this guys got nothing to do but bicker.
I keep checking in in after playing basketball with my kids... gotta take a brake every hour.. kids are killing me... LOL
We all know Apples far better and as time goes on Apple will continue to prove it's value.
Blue-ray.... HDMI???? Ya, nice... LOOKS BETTER ON MY HDTV. I'm not interested in having those features on my laptop, Life's to short!

[Eidorian]

Well, I guess an integrated / slow discrete GPU is fine for that. OS X would run slow as hell otherwise on most Macs ;)Quartz Extreme is all that you really need for OS X. Then again that runs on a GeForce 2 MX.

[LagunaSol]

As I said, my price configurations are far more reasonable than Apple's.

Fantastic. So here's an idea: go buy that Dell. Then hang out in their support forums and quit clogging the MacRumors tubes with your Apple-hating drivel.

Savvy?

[AidenShaw]

Yeah for some simple scaling tasks.

Let's discuss this again when all the filters and effects are fully optimised for GPU usage. Then you'll start to see some real productivity improvements. Looking at how slow Adobe is, probably in CS6 or something.

In CS5 for Windows. In CS6 or CS7 for Mac. As usual.


Non-posers don't even go to Starbucks. ;)

LOL. Gotta have that table over by the outlet to plug the tacky white plastic power brick into, and that glowing Apple on the lid.... Gonna sit here for hours, sipping a cold coffee....

(where's the emoticon for "projectile vomit", anyway)

[LagunaSol]

Gotta have that table over by the outlet to plug the tacky white plastic power brick into

Yep, the ginormous black power brick on my HP Compaq laptop with cables strung from both ends is so much sexier and simply exudes pure "power user" mojo.

Seriously, you haterade peddlers here on the MacRumors forums aren't even trying any more...

[vipergts2207]

LOL. Gotta have that table over by the outlet to plug the tacky white plastic power brick into, and that glowing Apple on the lid.... Gonna sit here for hours, sipping a cold coffee....

(where's the emoticon for "projectile vomit", anyway)

Oh! You totally pwned those people with your 7331ness.
/sarcasm

You should try to find a solution to your inferiority complex.

[SpitzerCR]

Apple = more effecient = higher price... outside of all the other awesome things.

[chrono1081]

Wow it only took the first page before the mac haters that continue to visit this forum show up with stupid sites like "appledefects.com"

If I had the time Id make a delldefects.com, and hpdefects.com a sony defects.com etc etc and people would see the playing field is LEVEL and all electronics companies have failures no matter what product.

Its sad how uneducated the modern consumer is. If I get a defective product, I exchange it. Too simple to get worked up over.

[Stevamundo]

Gee do you think that Microsoft is going to mention this report in their next “laptop hunters” ad?

I'm guessing no. :p

[vipergts2207]

Wow it only took the first page before the mac haters that continue to visit this forum show up with stupid sites like "appledefects.com"

If I had the time Id make a delldefects.com, and hpdefects.com a sony defects.com etc etc and people would see the playing field is LEVEL and all electronics companies have failures no matter what product.

Its sad how uneducated the modern consumer is.

Yeah, it's sad how pathetic their lives must be if they have nothing better to do than come to a forum to bash Macs because they apparently feel inadequate somehow about themselves, their purchase or both.

[Eidorian]

Yeah, it's sad how pathetic their lives must be if they have nothing better to do than come to a forum to bash Macs because they apparently feel inadequate somehow about themselves, their purchase or both.I'm sure Apple can handle a little criticism.

[DMann]

where is the PC makers engineering innovation?Taking leads from Apple.

[vipergts2207]

I'm sure Apple can handle a little criticism.

Oh so this forum isn't a third party site that has no official connection to Apple? Oh wait never mind it is. Maybe they should be complaining to Apple then, not the members of a third party forum. But sure, go ahead and keep rationalizing.

[Eidorian]

Oh so this forum isn't a third party site that has no official connection to Apple? Oh wait never mind it is. Maybe they should be complaining to Apple then, not the members of a third party forum. But sure, go ahead and keep rationalizing.I'm sure Apple pours over all of our submissions to their feedback forms. I don't see much of a reason to rise to the defense of Apple here every time someone has a criticism or complaint.

If I'm unhappy I'll submit feedback to Apple and vote with my wallet.

[vipergts2207]

I'm sure Apple pours over all of our submissions to their feedback forms. I don't see much of a reason to rise to the defense of Apple here every time someone has a criticism or complaint.

If I'm unhappy I'll submit feedback to Apple and vote with my wallet.

And I don't see the reason to complain to people who don't work for Apple. If I don't like something about my Honda I don't go complain to other Honda owners and think it's going to get fixed. See how stupid that logic is? (It's probably foolish of me to think that you do) Like I said, talk to Apple.

In case you don't know, here's the address and number:

1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014
408.996.1010

[Eidorian]

And I don't see the reason to complain to people who don't work for Apple. If I don't like something about my Honda I don't go complain to other Honda owners and think it's going to get fixed. See how stupid that logic is? Like I said, talk to Apple.

In case you didn't know, here's the address:

1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014
408.996.1010You're walking down a very messy path there.

If it bothers you so much the forum does have perfectly good options to ignore users if you wish to do so. I don't see a reason to use the ignore list though.

[vipergts2207]

You're walking down a very messy path there.

If it bothers you so much the forum does have perfectly good options to ignore users if you wish to do so. I don't see a reason to use the ignore list though.

Messy path? How so?

Even if I ignored people, 90% of the conversation that goes on in threads like this are from, in response to, or about the Mac bashers, so the thread wouldn't make any sense to me and I'd see their quotes in posts anyway.

[Lone Deranger]

Indeed. This whole debate has been going on for hours. I had the Forum Spy running in the background whilst sculpting in Zbrush working a new model. (On a 2008 MBP I might add.. who says they aren't capable of doing 3D on a professional level??)
During the several hours they went at it, writing dozens upon dozens of posts trying to discredit Apple on it's pricing, it's defects, etc. I nearly got the model done and ready for sending off to the client. The money I'll have made from those hours spent sculpting (rather than forum trolling) easily covers the "Apple-tax" they always bring up. But best of all, I had fun doing the work and will have something positive to show for it. (A One-Up for my portfolio). One has to wonder if their exertions will have been equally rewarding... :cool:




Yeah, it's sad how pathetic their lives must be if they have nothing better to do than come to a forum to bash Macs because they apparently feel inadequate somehow about themselves, their purchase or both.

[chrono1081]

Indeed. This whole debate has been going on for hours. I had the Forum Spy running in the background whilst sculpting in Zbrush working a new model. (On a 2008 MBP I might add.. who says they aren't capable of doing 3D on a professional level??)
During the several hours they went at it, writing dozens upon dozens of posts trying to discredit Apple on it's pricing, it's defects, etc. I nearly got the model done and ready for sending off to the client. The money I'll have made from those hours spent sculpting (rather than forum trolling) easily covers the "Apple-tax" they always bring up. But best of all, I had fun doing the work and will have something positive to show for it. (A One-Up for my portfolio). One has to wonder if their exertions will have been equally rewarding... :cool:

Omg I forgot Z Brush is out for mac! I remember seeing LAST summer it was to be coming out.

I think I found my next purchase :) It'll be like me and Corel Painter though. I have no talent in it what so ever but I have a blast using it!

[LagunaSol]

The money I'll have made from those hours spent sculpting (rather than forum trolling) easily covers the "Apple-tax" they always bring up.

Sadly, a Web browser is the only thing their Dells are able to run while their Windows systems are running their hourly spyware and virus scans. Hence, here they are. And what better way to soothe their own angst than to torment Mac users who don't share their misery? :(

[DMann]

Sadly, a Web browser is the only thing their Dells are able to run while their Windows systems are running their hourly spyware and virus scans. Hence, here they are. And what better way to soothe their own angst than to torment Mac users who don't share their misery? :(So much for productivity - been there, so done with that.

[Eidorian]

Sadly, a Web browser is the only thing their Dells are able to run while their Windows systems are running their hourly spyware and virus scans. Hence, here they are. And what better way to soothe their own angst than to torment Mac users who don't share their misery? :(I have a feeling they're here on their Macs.

[SFStateStudent]

No surprise for me....:p:cool::p:p

[vipergts2207]

I have a feeling they're here on their Macs.

That's probably true. I have a feeling that their PC's blue screened on them.

[DMann]

That's probably true. I have a feeling that their PC's blue screened on them.Still booting up **********************************************************
I'll have to get back to you, regarding that.

[djellison]

Still the best laptops

I disagree. Macbook displays are NOT best in class. Cheaper PC laptops have better screens than Macbook.

Macbooks lack....

Firewire
More than one useable USB port (try putting in a mouse. OK - now put in a data stick.....oh, wait, there isn't any room)
Reliable Wifi (a world of pain at home for the last two weeks)
Reliable Video Out (dual link DVI adaptor requires shift-ctrl-eject to reset displays every few minutes)
Audio out that doesn't hiss.
A price tag suitable for its specification. (about a third less than what it cost)

What Macbooks are, are the best 13" laptop that reliably runs OSX.

[brop52]

Obviously it is bad that the Aluminum MBs don't have firewire 400 (the White still does). However, the USB on the machine is not that slow. The CPU also plays into the picture during USB backups so it's not bad compared to F400. I've used F400 for backups on old machines and it can be extremely slow.

How can't you get a mouse and flash drive at the same time? Oversized flash drive? Anyway, bluetooth is there for a reason too. With such a great trackpad why use a mouse? You lose the whole functionality of the multi-touch trackpad. As for flash, why do you need to have it plugged in all the time?

The Wifi has worked fine for me since October.

[HasanDaddy]

MASSIVE LOL @ any filmmaker that thinks he can buy a PC off the street and edit on it!!!

I'm a filmmaker ---- and I don't wanna sound snobby, but until Final Cut Pro/Edit DV, the only way to edit on a computer was to buy a system for around $15,000

while PC's are heavily used out here in Hollywood, there is NO WAY you can edit with them unless you load them up with a BOAT-LOAD of RAM, and then purchase thousands on AVID editing software

good luck with the bundled editing programs on a PC!

for the budget filmmaker, an iMac with FCP is going to be the best bargain in town -- and MASSIVE kudos to Steve Jobs and Apple for making quality video editing so affordable

[djellison]

there is NO WAY you can edit with them unless you load them up with a BOAT-LOAD of RAM, and then purchase thousands on AVID editing software

This is a lie. A £300 PC with £50 of Premiere Elements can edit perfectly well. Come on - at least base your criticism on facts.

[djellison]

How can't you get a mouse and flash drive at the same time? Oversized flash drive? Anyway, bluetooth is there for a reason too. With such a great trackpad why use a mouse? You lose the whole functionality of the multi-touch trackpad. As for flash, why do you need to have it plugged in all the time?


IN that case - why bother with two USB ports at all then eh? (indeed - if you're using the DL DVI adaptor - you do only have one USB port. PLug in a Mouse...Oh - where does my flash drive / external HDD / card reader go.


Sorry - this is just making excuses for a real crappy design decision by Apple.

[4D4M]

Anti-Apple PR flacks are trolling the Internet message boards and submitting posts to support or at least neutrallize positive feedback on Apple products. If you find yourself dealing with a poster on a message board who never backs down or always has an answer/comeback that spins a problem against Apple-- you've caught yourself an Anti-Apple PR flack.

Yes, this is a highly significant development, something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime. I'd always assumed Apple wasn't that much of a threat to them.

Does anyone know if they also target non-Apple specific forums? Because I can't for the life of me work out why they're so active here, since the vast majority of people have already made their decision and bought Macs - surely it's too late for any trolling to be effective?

I'm assuming the objective is to cut off the flow of disillusioned Windows users from switching to Mac, in which case it occurs to me that their efforts might be more effective if they concentrated on people who haven't yet migrated?

:apple: :)

[zami]

I've had six Macs, three desktops and three laptops. Every single one has had either hard or optical drive failure or both. In the case of my MacMini it's had three failures in total.

However I've found the solution, a cheapo Asus eeePC. Zero problems since I bought it over a year ago;)

[DMann]

Yes, this is a highly significant development, something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime. I'd always assumed Apple wasn't that much of a threat to them.

Does anyone know if they also target non-Apple specific forums? Because I can't for the life of me work out why they're so active here, since the vast majority of people have already made their decision and bought Macs - surely it's too late for any trolling to be effective?

I'm assuming the objective is to cut off the flow of disillusioned Windows users from switching to Mac, in which case it occurs to me that their efforts might be more effective if they concentrated on people who haven't yet migrated?

:apple: :) Desperate times call for desperate measures, and desperate they have become - good luck with that, I say.

[BongoBanger]

I'm assuming the objective is to cut off the flow of disillusioned Windows users from switching to Mac, in which case it occurs to me that their efforts might be more effective if they concentrated on people who haven't yet migrated?

:apple: :)

I doubt it. What's far more likely is that as Apple has become more popular it has atracted customers with differing expectations. Whereas previously Apple purchasers tended to be a fairly staunch lot in terms of product loyalty there are now a range of people who judge products based on what's best for them. In some case that will be Apple's product, in others a competitor's.

This isn't trolling; it's merely difference of opinion. For example, I wouldn't buy a non-Apple laptop at the moment because I believe the Macbook to be a superior option in terms of build quality, aesthetics and functionality. However, I wouldn't buy an Apple desktop as I believe them to be a poor option in terms of what's available from other maunfacturers.

Operating system wise I would say that I've noticed little difference in terms of performance and stability between Vista SP1 and OS X 10.5.6. Both perform perfectly well and both have their irritations.

[4D4M]

I've had six Macs, three desktops and three laptops. Every single one has had either hard or optical drive failure or both. In the case of my MacMini it's had three failures in total

Sorry to hear that. In my last six Macs I've suffered one logic board problem which caused a firewire port to stop working (swiftly replaced) in a brand new G5, other than that I've had a trouble free Mac life.

[4D4M]

I doubt it. What's far more likely is that as Apple has become more popular it has atracted customers with differing expectations. Whereas previously Apple purchasers tended to be a fairly staunch lot in terms of product loyalty there are now a range of people who judge products based on what's best for them. In some case that will be Apple's product, in others a competitor's.

Yeah but even if the customer profile has changed a little, surely the vast majority of them are on here discussing Macs because they've already bought one? In which case, I'm wondering how will they be effective targets for the PR.

This isn't trolling; it's merely difference of opinion. For example, I wouldn't buy a non-Apple laptop at the moment because I believe the Macbook to be a superior option in terms of build quality, aesthetics and functionality. However, I wouldn't buy an Apple desktop as I believe them to be a poor option in terms of what's available from other maunfacturers.

I know there are some people like you, who can participate in a debate from a fairly neutral standpoint, but this isn't about those people. Surely it is trolling (or deliberate PR or whatever) if a person comes on here for the sole purpose of spreading negative publicity about the Mac platform? Especially if that person doesn't even own a Mac, as some of them don't.

I mean, you and I can talk about the good and bad of owning a Mac, because we use them every day. But there are clearly some people in these discussions who don't have any intention of ever owning one and don't have a single good word to say about Apple. There can only be one reason why they are here.

[djellison]

YBut there are clearly some people in these discussions who don't have any intention of ever owning one and don't have a single good word to say about Apple. There can only be one reason why they are here.

And what about criticism from people who DO own one or more Macs? (like me)

[Shivetya]

This may help me convince a few people I know that are on the cusp of switching to a Mac.

up until they see what they cost.

Best in a category is meaningless if people flinch at the price, let alone when they can see the other guy's laptops for half the price.


Really, every time I have tried to sell someone on buying a mac they see the price and say "no thanks". It doesn't matter if some magazine says they are better... the fact is the pricing stinks.

[4D4M]

And what about criticism from people who DO own one or more Macs? (like me)

Criticism is fine, most of us don't think Apple is perfect and we don't have any objection to a healthy debate. If Apple make a crappy decision (the current NiN debacle to name but one), I'm glad to see it discussed.

But I can see a distinct difference between you and, for example, our friend BMWfanboy.

[hiimamac]

Anyway, anyone ever notice when Apple releases spins news that's not really news, not larger or has high impact that it normally precedes some anti Apple or bad apple press??? Yahoo main page reporting iPhone no longer #1. Wow talk about perfect timing if you want better products, refresh and non crippeware from apple.
iPhone loses #1 spot, win7 looks like it will be accepted by IT, runs fast on old hardware, palm pre coming, flash glory and all (btw flash look great, check out MLB.com HD flash stream, awesome), msft only has to worry about win 7, bad economy, msft commercials, millions of customers coming in 2 yr contract fir iPhone, possible touch devices for win 7, mobile 6.5 looks like osx, apple iPods sales going flat.


Geeeeh. I don't think apple can afford the high premium margins anymore.

Anyway, note this happening rather take notice of press proceeding something like a consumer satisfaction story. Interesting.

[hiimamac]

I have no problems. I wouldn't say I do crazy intensive stuff. But I do build 3D models and renderings quite frequently. My MBP has handled all of Autodesks major 3D modeling software and other rendering programs with no real problems other than this thing gets hot.

It's not as fast as a MacPro, but I can carry it around.
I can bash apple with the best if them, mainly due to price, especially that the pro tower could have been built using non server chips , i7 and non ecc and sell fir $1499. That said I am amazed at how many plug INS I get in logic. The bottle neck is the FireWire 800 drive. Should look into a data card sine the he is esata or invest in 7200 or 10000 fir the MacBook pro.

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5H11 Safari/525.20)

I'd like to know the specifics of how the MBP scored, however. That thing is outrageously priced for its limited improvements over even the baseline white Macbook.For one, the CPUs need to be better…

The MBP has dedicated graphics memory and an express card slot. Not to mention, better RAM.

[hiimamac]

MBPs were NEVER intented to be 3D workstations or gamer machines. And these are pretty much the only areas where you NEED a fast GPU. As fast as it gets.

Jeez, when do people finally realise that the GPU is pretty irrelevant for Photoshop and Final Cut Pro?

Only recently this has started to become a topic (OpenCL etc). Not that this makes the GPU relevant at the moment, because there are no mainstream applications yet. There will be the time when applications rely more on GPUs and that's when Apple HAS to put faster ones in their laptops. Until then ...


Oh, and the 9600M isn't that bad.
True which is was MacBooks were #1 for audio and you could run motion and aperture. Then apple killid of the FireWire. Stupid choice. Only dine to keep pros buying pro line macs. Hoping all theses events iPhone slipping, palm ore , win 7, iphone cintracts expiribg, forces them to stop worrying about pro users using a mini or MacBook or better yet , i7 mid range.

[hiimamac]

Interesting to hear an opinion on the Apple desktop lineup from a business perspective. Would you have had a hard time getting hypothetical upgradeable Apple towers for your department?

Curious as I never looked at mini and have a girgiuse brand new up 24" hdmi glossy screen and MacBook on how a tricked out mini performs first in auido logic and plug INS and Second, video. Thx.

[hiimamac]

Yep. Just a plain tall (its your small size, why call it tall?) filter coffee. Only posers drink venti skinny soy caramel lattes.

Amen and they over roast the coffee taking out all the caffine. Duncan doughnuts rulez.

[hiimamac]

Or maybe it's because they like them? You sure like labeling people. Calling everyone posers must make you feel better about your self huh?

Not sure about him but Duncan d has a coffee only line. A regular is coffee sugar and light whipping cream no sissynhalf n half. You want black, you say regular no sugar no cream. In and out in 5. Starbucks in the other hand, while both have lines, you have to wait and wait for the non fat latte, caffine free, soy milknpinhead you want to smack but you need your over roasted burnt coffee as it's the closest to your work. Seattles best has a green bean coffee. So light it taste likentea but with a huge kick. Like some apple fans, starbucks drinkers are clueless and think because it taste stronger it has more caffine. Whippits is what I like to call them. Then repent 5 minutes later in the car. Smile.

[BongoBanger]

I mean, you and I can talk about the good and bad of owning a Mac, because we use them every day. But there are clearly some people in these discussions who don't have any intention of ever owning one and don't have a single good word to say about Apple. There can only be one reason why they are here.

Absolutely agree. There are people who have never owned an Apple product nor who have any intention of buying one who frequent this site. Since it's clearly labelled 'MacRumors' one can only assume they're here to troll.

However, I find the uber Apple fanboys equally annoying - the ones who constantly bash everything Microsoft does or who can't take any criticism of Apple. It's unnecessary, usually based on ignorant prejudice and, frankly, a bit childish.

Fortunately the majority of posters are sensible enough to not fall into either of these extremes.

[hiimamac]

You can tell each time IWantItThatWay and a few others post something their just sucking you in.... Stop arguing with the idiot and be done with it..... FINGERPRINT SCANNER>>> ROFL
Everyones got their own pinions but this guys got nothing to do but bicker.
I keep checking in in after playing basketball with my kids... gotta take a brake every hour.. kids are killing me... LOL
We all know Apples far better and as time goes on Apple will continue to prove it's value.
Blue-ray.... HDMI???? Ya, nice... LOOKS BETTER ON MY HDTV. I'm not interested in having those features on my laptop, Life's to short!inhabe a 24" glossy monitor with hdmi plays he well and max os looks awesome so you're wrongn there. All majornn monitors now have hdmi, some with tv tuners and are not gimics.get with the program. Outside if applebtv therebis anworld of he content and computer uses with network.

[hiimamac]

I'm sure Apple can handle a little criticism.

Not in the apple forums theybcant. To much like Nazis.

[dernhelm]

up until they see what they cost.

Best in a category is meaningless if people flinch at the price, let alone when they can see the other guy's laptops for half the price.


Really, every time I have tried to sell someone on buying a mac they see the price and say "no thanks". It doesn't matter if some magazine says they are better... the fact is the pricing stinks.

Disagree. I know plenty of people that want a well built, well designed, reliable laptop and will pay a little more for it.

Besides, it isn't initial cost that gets you. It's total cost of ownership. Like a lot of schools, my son's school hands out laptops to 6th graders. The district was really proud of this program and really touted the fact that these laptops were very inexpensive. They're HPs, and frankly they're terrible - they got what they paid for. Now I watch him pretty closely when he uses this at home (I assume they do the same thing at school). His first laptop simply stopped working on it's own - the IT guys think it may have overheated and fried a chip but I can tell you that didn't happen while he was using it at home. It probably happened on the bus ride home because it didn't sleep properly when he closed the lid and school and packed it up to bring it home. He got a replacement, and a few months later he accidentally tripped over his power cord and snapped off the power prong. So now it's useless unless someone else charges his battery for him. But hey, they were cheap right?

Neither of these things would have happened if the school had bought Macs for the kids. I've never had a mac laptop that didn't sleep properly when closing the lid. I'm sure it's happened to somebody, but never to me. And with the mag-safe adapter the little power cord incident would've been averted as well. In addition, the virus that took out half the school's laptops would never have been a problem, and I assure you that with the build quality difference you would get an additional 1-2 years at least out of these laptops just because they aren't plastic pieces of junk.

I've had this conversation with at least a dozen people who asked me for purchasing advice. The cost isn't just what you pay to take it home. It's also what you pay to keep it running. That's a story that tells pretty well, and that's one of the things that Consumer Reports is pretty good at picking up on.

[hiimamac]

Indeed. This whole debate has been going on for hours. I had the Forum Spy running in the background whilst sculpting in Zbrush working a new model. (On a 2008 MBP I might add.. who says they aren't capable of doing 3D on a professional level??)
During the several hours they went at it, writing dozens upon dozens of posts trying to discredit Apple on it's pricing, it's defects, etc. I nearly got the model done and ready for sending off to the client. The money I'll have made from those hours spent sculpting (rather than forum trolling) easily covers the "Apple-tax" they always bring up. But best of all, I had fun doing the work and will have something positive to show for it. (A One-Up for my portfolio). One has to wonder if their exertions will have been equally rewarding... :cool:
Can youbshownme hiw to do this. I work with celebs and music. Maybe we can deal. peace

[DELLsFan]

This may help me convince a few people I know that are on the cusp of switching to a Mac.

Me too. Given the choice between something that really just works, over something you need to tweak and fuss and uninstall, and rant and rave before it works, I'll choose the former. A friend of mine is about to take the plunge into mobile computing and would appreciate this report.

:apple:

[MacAndy74]

Microsoft & their 'Laptop Hunters' Ad's win my Weekly 'Quo Numptus' Award - this weeks epic numpties :D

This is like a pie in the face to Microsoft's campaign.

[mlblacy]

Do you know why a lot of mac users use Dell displays instead of Apple. It's because Apple doesn't sell a display with specs they want within their budget.

The same goes with PCs. Everyone has a budget. Even Apple fans. Just because it's cheaper doesn't mean "it doesn't do what you want".

Wow... I wonder why the positive stories about Apple always turn into a trollapalooza. The blurb generates an overwhelming positive response (right now 152+ vs 17-), yet the comments seem to be mostly from over caffeinated bashers. Here's an idea... if your budget for a laptop is $499, or your only willing to spend $299 for your monitor... go buy something else. Please. Now. Quietly. And then shut up about it already.

There are so many comments, that I am wondering what kind of cottage industry exists for folks to write their dire tales of woe. I wonder if some of these folks are not just shilling for the non-apple companies, in some guerilla anti-pr effort.

You folks have no IDEA of what "expensive" is apparently. Not so many years ago one had to pay over $700 for a 40mb (yes megabyte) Hard drive. I myself once paid over $10,000 for 128 mb of ram. Overpriced? Maybe, but that was what it cost to buy the "horsepower" needed to work professionally. The cost has continued to spiral downward, and the power and speed has increased exponentially. I for one, am thankful for that fact.

Apple has always been at the bleeding edge, and sometimes they are quick to jettison technologies, much earlier than other folks even begin to consider that as an option. Don't like it? Buy a previous gen version that still has whatever widget you are being deprived of.

Speaking of monitors, I bought a MUCH superior non-apple monitor to run on an aging g4 legacy machine. Specwise and pricewise it looked like it blew any Apple offering away, but frankly it pretty much is inferior to my OLD apple studio monitor, which was crisp to the day it died. Whereas my old screen calibrated easily and was always dead-bang-on for my pre-press imaging... my new "superior" monitor never, ever, could be brought into an acceptable range of what passed for "calibration". Futhermore the angle of view changed the screen so radically the notion of calibration was a joke.
It was better in one regard, and that would be the TV tuner that was built into it. I mostly use it as a TV these days, yet despite it's HD specs, the screen is vastly inferior to my regular LCD TV. Sometimes a cheaper price has nothing to do with a better value. Period.

Apple products make me more productive every single day, and I make my living with them. They are not perfect, and I do have a list of things that could be made better.... but if your only prerequisite is based on price, then you have no idea what real value is.

Real value is a machine where the operating system, the hardware, and much of the software is designed to work seamlessly together, and does.

[tomacwhite]

Me too. Given the choice between something that really just works, over something you need to tweak and fuss and uninstall, and rant and rave before it works, I'll choose the former. A friend of mine is about to take the plunge into mobile computing and would appreciate this report.

:apple:

I bought a Macbook yesterday (not based on this report, it's my 3rd Mac) and I love it! My last Mac was an iBook G4 running Panther so there are loads of new toys to play with on OSX Leopard!

I briefly considered buying a Windows laptop but the only ones I liked were Sony ones, and at that price range I'd rather have OSX. I even work for Sony so would have got a good discount on a laptop, but I simply wanted OSX because of how nice it is to use. Oh and the multi-touch pad, it was the first time I used one yesterday and was blown away by it (I've installed the Firefox beta with the multitouch functionality too, which works better than Safari!).

I love the Macbook so much, and don't regret buying it for 1 second. Awesome machine :)

[Lone Deranger]

I'm pretty sure this is very close to the truth indeed.

I wonder if some of these folks are not just shilling for the non-apple companies, in some guerilla anti-pr effort.

[jamesryanbell]

There's the "best", and there's everything else.

[FoxHoundADAM]

Unfortionatly Apple lost the "I'm not cool enough to own one" category to HP.

[kerryn]

I like the Macbook, but could not buy the current one due to its lack of Firewire.

If the Macbook came with Firewire 800, a multi-media card reader built in (I dislike having to use a USB adapter - it kind of negates the point of macs being easy), blu-ray support and an even higher resolution screen in a 13" package and for me the Macbook would be perfect.

For now, I'm sticking with my WhiteBook. :)

[Konstanty]

= Macs are worth the price, you get what you pay for (you know the drill)

"Steve Jobs: We're better than you are! We have better stuff.
Bill Gates: You don't get it, Steve. That doesn't matter!"

Does it Matter?

"Steve Jobs: We're better than you are! We have better stuff.

Buying public: You don't get it, Steve. If we can't afford it, that doesn't matter."

[Eidorian]

Criticism is fine, most of us don't think Apple is perfect and we don't have any objection to a healthy debate. If Apple make a crappy decision (the current NiN debacle to name but one), I'm glad to see it discussed.

But I can see a distinct difference between you and, for example, our friend BMWfanboy.I don't think it's a good idea to make Mac ownership a free pass for being critical of Apple.

Nor is it one to start needless arguments.

[polaris20]

This is a lie. A £300 PC with £50 of Premiere Elements can edit perfectly well. Come on - at least base your criticism on facts.

You have a severe lack of understanding in the video production/editing field if you think a $100 program and a cheap PC = FCP.

Even if I would have stuck with Windows for that, I would have also stuck with a midrange Avid system, or maybe the full edition of Premiere.

I don't think it's a good idea to make Mac ownership a free pass for being critical of Apple.

Nor is it one to start needless arguments.

Sure it is! People here love to point to their limited experience with stuff and then make broad generalizations as fact. It's the MacRumors way.

[Eidorian]

Sure it is! People here love to point to their limited experience with stuff and then make broad generalizations as fact. It's the MacRumors way.Sadly even with years of experience there are many negative situations with my Macs and other Apple products that I have never encountered.

I can say the same for every other computer I've ever has as well. I'm just one person.

MacRumors gives us a place to congregate and communicate regardless of our experiences, good or bad. Even our opinions.

[xhambonex]

"Steve Jobs: We're better than you are! We have better stuff.

Buying public: You don't get it, Steve. If we can't afford it, that doesn't matter."

And the thing about Apple is, they don't really care. The company has done very well at selling their computers "overpriced" and have been making a steady profit.

I wouldn't consider an iPod an affordable MP3 player when they were originally selling for $300+, but that sure didn't stop sales. Apple isn't trying to compete in a price battle with other PC companies, they simply make what they feel is the best product, put a price on it and watch it sell. I'm not saying I agree with their decision, nor do I like them, but they have no real reason to say we should lower prices, are sales aren't very good right now and our profits are low.

[farmboy]

They still need to be cheaper and more customization. For example, there should be a 15/16 inch MacBook for under $1000.

Well, I should hope a laptop under an inch wide would be under $1000. But it's Apple, and they do like to charge more than the market rate.:D

[Lone Deranger]

Haha.. indeed! :) But then again, how to explain to a lay-person the demands of a professional editing pipeline....? One that has to work fast and flawlessly in the heat of battle where you'll often find yourself with VFX supes, impatient directors and primadonna producers looking over your shoulder yelling at you. The very idea of sitting there with a Sub $1000 PC running Premiere makes me break out in laughter. :D

You have a severe lack of understanding in the video production/editing field if you think a $100 program and a cheap PC = FCP.

Even if I would have stuck with Windows for that, I would have also stuck with a midrange Avid system, or maybe the full edition of Premiere.

[flopticalcube]

MacRumors gives us a place to congregate and communicate regardless of our experiences, good or bad. Even our opinions.
Amen. Beats getting your posts censored for negative comments on the Apple support forums.

[Eidorian]

Amen. Beats getting your posts censored for negative comments on the Apple support forums.That must be a terrifying experience for those users.

As much as you do want to ask Apple for help and voice your problem it gets wiped out. There really isn't another place online that lets you bring up your concern and desire for help for Apple products with a large userbase like MacRumors.

[applecultvictim]

At last macrumors after you missed that forrester research article which showed double satisfaction rates for apple vs dell or pretty much anyone you didn't miss consumer report in favour of some thing Trent Reznor said about the app store....:rolleyes:

In any case we are vindicated here as per usual.

Consumer reports is a top authority, I used them almost blindly in all my purchasing choices. :apple:

Amen. Beats getting your posts censored for negative comments on the Apple support forums.
I ve had my views on macrumors censored countless times here. Granted of course that at apple it was way too infuriating. That said I have read a lot of negative comments on the apple forums too.

[VoR]

Consumer reports is a top authority, I used them almost blindly in all my purchasing choices. :apple:


Personally I think most of them are rubbish most of the time. I've bought a lot of tech through the years and never knowingly had my opinion on a purchase asked for.
It's hard to cut through bias, from users and marketing but I feel I can do a pretty good job researching before buying.
At the end of the day if I'm not happy with a product I'll take it back/charge it back.

[APPLENEWBIE]

I smell a new ad with PC and Mac:

PC: "Say Mac, I hear that one of your computers was ranked high on some survey..."

Mac: "Well, buddy, I don't like to brag but actually all four Mac laptops won highest ranking in each of the categories according to Consumer Reports."

PC: "Interesting. I bet Lauren's 17" HP was rated right up there, too, huh?" (holds up a cardboard cutout of Lauren's face mounted on a stick.)

Mac: "Yup, it did well. It came in fourth."

PC: "Fourth? (looks a little surprised)... Well, at least the PC's were scored higher in customer service, right?"

Mac: "Well, actually Mac was rated highest there, too."

PC: (Looks sad and looks around)

Mac: "PC, what are you looking for?"

PC: "A dog I can kick...."

[applecultvictim]

Personally I think most of them are rubbish most of the time. I've bought a lot of tech through the years and never knowingly had my opinion on a purchase asked for.
It's hard to cut through bias, from users and marketing but I feel I can do a pretty good job researching before buying.
At the end of the day if I'm not happy with a product I'll take it back/charge it back.

Fair enough buddy, I tend to trust them like I said, I really like the extensive lab testing they do to the products and I am afraid recently all the "Reviews" we read on the net are paid marketing. That said taste is an important issue too.

[polaris20]

That must be a terrifying experience for those users.

As much as you do want to ask Apple for help and voice your problem it gets wiped out. There really isn't another place online that lets you bring up your concern and desire for help for Apple products with a large userbase like MacRumors.

discussions.apple.com is pretty bad if you say anything remotely critical. I remember asking for codec information there when I was playing with iMovie for home videos, and when I lightly criticized it for having very limited codec support (for importing) I was told I don't understand video, and don't understand what iMovie '08 is targeted at or its workflow.

Er, no, I understand video very well, thank you. I just think that users looking to import video from a variety of formats would like to do so without having to find a myriad of 3rd party apps just to get it into something iMovie can read. Even an $80 Sony Vegas app has broader support.

Luckily it appears they've fixed this (at least to some extent) in '09.

[Chappers]

Sure it is! People here love to point to their limited experience with stuff and then make broad generalizations as fact. It's the MacRumors way.

Who could you possibly be talking about? :D

[polaris20]

Who could you possibly be talking about? :D

A close personal friend of mine. :D

[ericinboston]

The main problem I have with Apple's laptops is purely price for performance.

Throw allllll the other glitzy, sexy design specs out the window...all the "it lasts 45 mins longer on a battery" comments are not applicable to me.

For my needs (every person is different), I cannot AFFORD to blow $2000+ on a laptop to do the workhorse stuff I do (audio editing, video editing, programming) when I can get the same powerful guts on a $1000 or less pc laptop.

I know, I know...I'm generalizing a bit...and I'm also not a fan of the "well our ram runs at 1066 and yours at 800" arguments which barely make a difference anyway.

I agree that Apple's laptops are built top notch and are very very sexy...but for my needs, I'm all about power and price. I'm gonna hook the thing up to my external 24" monitor anyway...and keep it plugged in 24x7....and I'm gonna use my external USB or eSATA hard drives.

Love the Macs...hate the price. If Apple wants me to switch, I'm all ears...but how about some better pricing? This is how MS/PC land is competing against Apple...cheaply priced machines in comparison to Apple.

In other news, I am on the verge of updating my Mac Mini and/or getting an iMac desktop when Apple refreshes in a few months.

[dejo]

...but for my needs, I'm all about power and price. I'm gonna hook the thing up to my external 24" monitor anyway...and keep it plugged in 24x7....and I'm gonna use my external USB or eSATA hard drives.
Sounds like you don't really need a laptop to fill this role then.

[WestonHarvey1]

Consumer reports mean nothing. Apple notebooks have always had a history of failing. Heck I even heard one of the iBooks had a 75% failure rate.

Over time, all computers have a 100% failure rate, so I'm not sure what that figure is supposed to mean.

[WestonHarvey1]

Sounds like you don't really need a laptop to fill this role then.

I got rid of my dual G5 desktop for a MacBook Pro 17" with external monitor configuration and I *really* miss my G5. The CPU was much slower, but overall it was a better performer for work, because of the extra memory, bigger and faster disks, etc.

[-hh]

Of course, in the performance to cost ratio category, which is currently the most important to me, Macs fail. But I'm guessing that's not important to most consumers, and thus a Mac is a good buy. Especially the current Macbook line.

A big part of the communication gulf between PC and Mac 'fans' comes down to how the word "Performance" is defined.

If you're only looking at raw specifications such as CPU GHz, amount of RAM, etc ... then the PC is usually going to win.

However, when you define 'Performance' as the whole enchelada ... hardware + software + UI + reliability + ease of use + service + etc = total ... the answer isn't still a PC win.

What gets included depends on individual consumer and the relative weightings for what is more(less) important to them. When such a broader holistic view is applied, the Mac can often come out ahead and 'win'.


BMWFan - You're a BMW fan.

Let's say you think that BMWs are extremely reliable (and they probably are)..

Unfortunately, they're not, by conventional automotive reliability measures. Personally, I find it quite ironic that a user who named himself 'BMW Fan' is thus criticizing a product that is very similar to BMW in terms of its overall design philosophy and subsequent design trade-offs. Apparently, this is why the 'nic is "Fan" and not "Owner". :rolleyes:


tell that to the mac users who went with the dell display. they will let you know it's an amazing deal since the dell display does everything apple display does and more!

Actually, consider your own facts a second time in a different light: this also reveals that many Apple customers "Don't Blindly Drink the Kool-Aid", since they're clearly being value-concious and showing that they only spend their money where they deem it to be necessary.


Many Mac users, especially designers and graphic artists, are more productive on the Mac platform than on a PC. Many of them earn a great deal of money and their time is quite valuable. You don't have to have a wild imagination to figure out how $700 might be irrelevant to someone like that.

Agreed, and you're alluding to a very common 'False Economy' fallacy.

At a typical fully burdened labor rate of $150+/hour for that class of knowledge worker, the supposed "Savings" of $700 on the hardware's upfront costs will disappear quickly. $500/$150/hr is roughly 5 hours worth of time, which can be eaten up in as little as one Windows OS 'patch tuesday' nonsense cropping up on Wednesday morning's lost productivity.

To put it into an analogy, its like buying a cheaper new car, but it gets worse fuel economy...over time, one will eventually end up paying more. How long it takes to reach that financial cross-over depends on the purchase price difference, cost of fuel, how many miles get driven, etc, etc.


But whatever. I say, buy what you want. I'm amused that what others buy seems to bother you so much.

Yes, it does tend to make one particularly suspicious as to what their real motivations are...and while I don't want to be unkind to newbies, when such loud protests are coming from a new account, applying Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor) says that an Astroturfing Shill is the most likely explanation.

How can Apple be like Ferrari when they have underpowered hardware?

Because while horsepowered-up Ford may pull ahead on the straightaways, it is lacking in handling, so it gets passed in the corners by the car that had less raw horsepower, but is a better overall PACKAGE.

Applying the analogy, the best car on the track is not the one with the most horsepower on its specs sheet: its the one with the fastest laptime.

And note that 'best laptime' means that it also includes not only how well the machine is balanced, but how well it works in harmony with its driver to produce the best overall result, which also includes car's character (a semi-intangible) since a happy driver will perform at a higher level, which makes a big difference too. Great equipment without skill results in DNF's.


If you want to pay $1500 on $700 hardware be my guest.

Hardware is only half the question.

Without and OS and software, the only thing that 'fancy' hardware can do for you is to burn electricity to heat the room.

Um what "little extras" does the Mac have that justifies the $500 price differences?

Since you don't already know, then what validity can there be to your prior claims that there's utterly nothing that could possibly be worth $500?

As I said at the top, a big part of the communication gulf between PC and Mac 'fans' comes down to how the word "Performance" is defined.

First, hardware is literally useless without software, which means that the question of "VALUE" is always wrong when it is constrained to only looking at just hardware. Thus, anytime that I see a "hardware only" comparison, it gets immediately rejected out of hand as being myoptically shortsighted.

Sure, one can claim "All OSs are exactly the same" and try to assume away any software-based variation significances, but it should be obvious to everyone by now that there's at least a contingent of ~10% of the USA market that disagrees strongly enough to vote with their wallet and not only buy something different, but also are willing to pay "more" upfront.

As such, a broader holistic view is unavoidable.

There is no ultimate "Right" or "Wrong" answer to this because everyone's needs and priorities are different. For some, a PC is fine, and for others they'll conclude to a Macintosh. There's even a guy on Linux

However, the same marketplace diversity also exists within that favorite analogy of automobiles...including BMWs: so why is it that after 100+ years, the marketplace still hasn't simplified itself down to <6 different models?

Heck, they haven't even been able to standardize what color all cars should be. :rolleyes:

If the marketplace supports diversity, there must be a good reason for it.

Similarly, if there's a marketplace shift that's occurring...there's also a good reason.

Consumers invariably vote with their wallets to their own self-interests, and the consumer by definition cannot be wrong. Shortsighted, sure...but that's merely a matter of perspective and priority-setting and its not the same thing as being 'wrong'.

The days where a corporation could individually tell a hundred different consumers "Gosh, that's the FIRST time that this has ever happened" are effectively over. Furthermore, when a company has been found to have been lying in such a fashion can ... rightfully ... be burned on the stake for attempting to be dishonest. It has been said that the Internet interprets attempts at censorship to be network damage and re-routes an alternative path.

Some companies have figured this out, but many have not. Some have found that consumers can be fooled, which is often the mission of Shills and Astroturfers.

However, since part of the power of the Internet is that it provides transparency and disclosure that gives the consumer greater power, when such Shills are discovered, it invariably backfires on the corporation who was trying to manipulate the public. This is the opportunity for anyone who might have a conflict of interest ... such as being a Microsoft MVP (or the Apple equivalent) ... to disclose that now.



-hh

[ericinboston]

Sounds like you don't really need a laptop to fill this role then.

Right...but there's not much else that Apple provides:

1)I ain't gonna blow $1400 on an iMac that already has a built in monitor...I have my own beautiful monitor
2)Mac Minis are not powerful for me...and don't get me started that they don't ship with a simple $25 keyboard/mouse combo for FREE
3)Mac Pros are a joke at $2700+

As I've mentioned a hundred times on this board and other places, Apple should (needs) bring back the day of the normal desktop...price it around $800-$1400 for various models.

So as a person who WANTS to switch to a Mac (lets not forget that I will need to learn the OS and how things "work" on the Mac like backups and installations) while retaining some of the normal peripherals (monitor) and is looking to plop down $700-$1000 is kinda locked out of Apple.

[dejo]

Right...but there's not much else that Apple provides:

1)I ain't gonna blow $1400 on an iMac that already has a built in monitor...I have my own beautiful monitor
2)Mac Minis are not powerful for me...and don't get me started that they don't ship with a simple $25 keyboard/mouse combo for FREE
3)Mac Pros are a joke at $2700+
Yup, sounds like Apple doesn't have a product that would fit your needs.

But I gotta wonder: you have a monitor but no keyboard/mouse combo? The Mac mini is intended for those that have all three (or those that don't need any of the three to use it).

[Eric S.]

Over time, all computers have a 100% failure rate, so I'm not sure what that figure is supposed to mean.

This is what it means:

http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/laptops.html

... by affected percentage of models, the G3 iBooks were the worst by far, with more than half requiring logic board replacements. Apple created a warranty extension program for some versions, but not all. ...

The white 12" iBook G3 series became much less reliable through its first five revisions, reaching a 73% failure percentage! The last revision dropped to a 49% failure percentage — much improved over the previous model, but still unconscionably high."

[xhambonex]

Right...but there's not much else that Apple provides:

1)I ain't gonna blow $1400 on an iMac that already has a built in monitor...I have my own beautiful monitor
2)Mac Minis are not powerful for me...and don't get me started that they don't ship with a simple $25 keyboard/mouse combo for FREE
3)Mac Pros are a joke at $2700+

As I've mentioned a hundred times on this board and other places, Apple should (needs) bring back the day of the normal desktop...price it around $800-$1400 for various models.

So as a person who WANTS to switch to a Mac (lets not forget that I will need to learn the OS and how things "work" on the Mac like backups and installations) while retaining some of the normal peripherals (monitor) and is looking to plop down $700-$1000 is kinda locked out of Apple.

And it seems like they don't want your money...

Which of course doesn't make sense and I agree a tower other than the MacPro would be great, but they just aren't concerned with that market right now. They feel that they have a good lineup and it sells very well for them. And when they do decide to go that route they will make something great, but it will destroy the iMac sales. Also it would put pressure on Apple to sell displays that don't start at $799. Because not everyone buys a $800 tower and a $800 monitor.

If you really want to try the OS, hackintosh is an easy solution.

I find it hard to come to these forums and reason with the business decisions Apple makes because the consumers here are well educated buyers vs. those who just walk in the store and let an Apple sales person make a sale. But the fact is, lots of their target market isn't like you and quite frankly is clueless to what they are actually buying. But you'll find that anywhere in retail, just look at people who buy monster cables. ;)

[ericinboston]

Yup, sounds like Apple doesn't have a product that would fit your needs.

But I gotta wonder: you have a monitor but no keyboard/mouse combo? The Mac mini is intended for those that have all three (or those that don't need any of the three to use it).


Before I bought the mini I had/have plenty of keyboards/mice for the pc world...and a monitor. I had no Apple equipment. When I bought the Mini, the keyboards/mice from the pc world would not work...

I bought the wireless Apple combo and hate the keyboard...they took away the numpad!! What idiot designed that? So I had buy a 2nd keyboard (wired).

I know the Mini is "aimed" at people (read: Mac users) who already have a mon/key/mouse but come on...$600 minimum price and they can't include a bleeping keyboard/mouse for free? That's unheard of anywhere in the computer world unless of course you enjoy paying through the nose and getting nickled and dimed.

Apple charges $98 for a bleeping keyboard/mouse combo!!!! What a rip off. You telling me that for the last 20+ years only pc manufacturers have been been able to "include" this item for free???...and that companies like Logitech and Microsoft and Belkin have only been able to figure out how to market/sell keyboard/mouse combos for under $30 at bazillions of stores? Puhlease Apple.

$98. Thats 1/6 the price of the Mini...essentially 15% of the price. Scam. So the $600 bottom of the barell Mini is really $700. I think if you polled all 6 billion people on this planet, all but 3 (the marketing guys at Apple) would agree that a "computer" should come with the keyboard and mouse.

-Eric

[dejo]

Apple charges $98 for a bleeping keyboard/mouse combo!!!! What a rip off. You telling me that for the last 20+ years only pc manufacturers have been been able to "include" this item for free???...and that companies like Logitech and Microsoft and Belkin have only been able to figure out how to market/sell keyboard/mouse combos for under $30 at bazillions of stores? Puhlease Apple.
PC manufacturers aren't including it for free. It's built into the price. But I take it that you don't realize that plenty of those $30 keyboard/mouse combos also work with the mini.


I think if you polled all 6 billion people on this planet, all but 3 (the marketing guys at Apple) would agree that a "computer" should come with the keyboard and mouse.
6 billion - 3? Really? Exaggerating to such an extreme doesn't help your argument.

[xhambonex]

Apple charges $98 for a bleeping keyboard/mouse combo!!!!
-Eric

That's why its not free. :rolleyes:

Sorry you had problems, I use a cheap mouse and keyboard no problem.

[flopticalcube]

In Apples case its a good thing they don't include a keyboard and mouse. Such things are extremely personal in nature. Many people don't like the keyboard or mouse Apple sells.

[ericinboston]

And it seems like they don't want your money...


If you really want to try the OS, hackintosh is an easy solution.

I find it hard to come to these forums and reason with the business decisions Apple makes because the consumers here are well educated buyers vs. those who just walk in the store and let an Apple sales person make a sale. But the fact is, lots of their target market isn't like you and quite frankly is clueless to what they are actually buying. But you'll find that anywhere in retail, just look at people who buy monster cables. ;)


:)

I love the Monster analogy...I've been outraged at that sales pitch for like 15 years.

However, honestly, I don't find Hackintosh "easy". I'm a pc guru and I find the H website/forums a nightmare to navigate...nobody has replied to my simple comments either. Lastly, it seems the H boards are afraid to post a consistend "build"...rather, they force me to google the builds and pray the download isn't filled with viruses. When/if H produces something a bit more straightforward, I'll dive in....I just don't have time these days to spend 50+ hours researching a project like this. I wish I could easily get it up and running on my Dell 530 Inspiron quad-core 3gig ram machine. But nobody is throwing me a bone in the forums and my hardware SEEMS to not be supported as of yet (read: nobody else on the planet has used my machine for OSX).

Also, yea, I know Apple is not targeting me to buy a Mac. Again, would LOVE to own one of their laptops but I would need a MBPro and I'm just not going to plunk down $2000+ for a machine with 90day phone support and 1 year non-phone-support plus all my other "complaints". I think the PC manufacturers are taking note of Apple's "cool" designs and we are seeing more and more "cooler" pc laptops...for 1/2 or even 1/3 the price....and I'm already 100% used to Windows and extremely comfortable with Windows so what is the compelling reason for me to switch?

Apple should try running a marketing campaign that promotes PC users to switch...give us (anyone actually) a full 30-day (compared to their WEAK 14 day), no questions asked return policy...no 15% restocking fee (a slap in the face policy that's been around for a long time)...and also include on the machine some media files that show common tasks in Windows that are now on the Mac (their in-store tutorials are nice but too far to drive and limited availability).

[Pika]

Before I bought the mini I had/have plenty of keyboards/mice for the pc world...and a monitor. I had no Apple equipment. When I bought the Mini, the keyboards/mice from the pc world would not work...

I bought the wireless Apple combo and hate the keyboard...they took away the numpad!! What idiot designed that?I love the numpad-less keyboard because it give me more space on my desk.

[ericinboston]

PC manufacturers aren't including it for free. It's built into the price. But I take it that you don't realize that plenty of those $30 keyboard/mouse combos also work with the mini.



6 billion - 3? Really? Exaggerating to such an extreme doesn't help your argument.

I tried numerous keyboards from my closet...Dell, MS, and Logitech...all worked to an extent but nothing even close to 90%.

I think I am entitled to exaggeration at times...it offers a little humor. I'll increase the 3 to 30,000...which includes all employees of Apple and a subset of Mini owners who, somehow, agree that new computers should be shipped without human input devices.

[ericinboston]

I love the numpad-less keyboard because it give me more space on my desk.

But for those of us who use it numerous times a day to type in login accounts (banks, credit cards, passwords, etc) and some Excel type stuff, it's horrible. The smaller keyboard also makes me feel like I'm typing on a tiny laptop...keys are soooo close together.

But to each his own.

[flopticalcube]

But to each his own.
Unfortunately, when Apple decides on a way its their way or the highway. It is sad that they don't have an optional wireless kb with numpad for those that want one.

[*LTD*]

People can dig up all the "Apple defect" forum posts (and possibly lies) all they like.

Anecdotal information is not only meaningless, it can also be quite misleading.

Show me instead the broader trends, the consumer reports, the customer satisfaction surveys, etc. The material that gets published. And I mean year over year, too.

I really don't give a damn that someone and their "friend" have defective Macbooks. Especially when my experience might be completely the opposite. Like I'm going to believe any kind of anecdotal info on a site that is a veritable garden of trolls.

"I'm on my second/third defective Macbook, etc."

Yeah, sure you are. :rolleyes:

[-hh]

And it seems like they don't want your money...


In general, there's a fairly noteable group of desktop hobbiest types who thus aren't particularly happy, but the problem with Apple paying much attention to them is that IIRC something like 70% of Mac sales are from laptops.

As such, the argument is that Apple can "afford" (to some degree) neglect the desktop.

And on the desktop side, the iMac is supposedly the most popular, which then raises the question of if it is this way because it comes the closest to what desktop buyers want, or because it is what desktop buyers want (not the same thing)?

In the meantime, probably 80% (a Pareto Principle SWAG) of consumers are capable of having their computing power needs satisfied with a notebook-class of CPU...which also folds nicely into explaining both why laptops are so popular today, as well as why the iMac uses a mobile CPU instead of a desktop CPU.

I suspect that the broader question here is what the longer term implications are of not having a true desktop below the Mac Pro as a product to cater to 'enthusiast' consumers.

The reason why this may be important is because these also tend to be early adopters and thus, are more critical to the creation of the base of Opinion Leaders in the diffusion process who are thus the source of influence to the buying decisions of later adopters (early mainstream, etc).

In other words this argument is that the proverbial 'xMac' might not directly be a profitable product, but the demographic of the individual who buys it is an "Opinion Leader" whose (word of mouth) influence encourages others to adopt the Apple Macintosh as a brand.

Of course, the problem with this line of argument is that its hard to measure and thus prove if its working or not. As the saying goes:

Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.
- John Wanamaker, (attributed); US department store merchant (1838 - 1922)



-hh

[Pika]

But for those of us who use it numerous times a day to type in login accounts (banks, credit cards, passwords, etc) and some Excel type stuff, it's horrible. The smaller keyboard also makes me feel like I'm typing on a tiny laptop...keys are soooo close together.

But to each his own.Have you realized that Macs are more suited for minimalist people ?

[ericinboston]

Have you realized that Macs are more suited for minimalist people ?

Can you give me an example? That sentence can be intrepreted numerous ways. :)

[Eidorian]

Have you realized that Macs are more suited for minimalist people ?

Can you give me an example? That sentence can be intrepreted numerous ways. :)This (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary) springs to mind.

[xhambonex]

:)

I love the Monster analogy...I've been outraged at that sales pitch for like 15 years.

However, honestly, I don't find Hackintosh "easy".

I think the PC manufacturers are taking note of Apple's "cool" designs and we are seeing more and more "cooler" pc laptops...for 1/2 or even 1/3 the price....

Yes the monster cable stuff is funny. I was reading stories over at engadget the other day.

And you are right, hackintosh isn't exactly easy, and though it would seem like there is a good support group because people are always on this forum asking questions and threads get hijacked to answering hackintosh questions and what not. I, however, haven't tried and know that time will need to be spent which some day might be a fun project but for now, no thanks. I'd be happy with a PC running XP or 7. I'm on the XP side of my Mac right now.

I was shown lots of Dell's upcoming products a couple months ago and was very very impressed with some of the designs they had come up with and what they were going to make available. Now not all of what I saw has been released yet, but still I remember sitting there saying, wow, Apple seems to be boring compared to the changes they are doing. But then again Dell has a ways to come to meet Apple designs but I was glad to know they are working hard and spending money to do so.

In general, there's a fairly noteable group of desktop hobbiest types who thus aren't particularly happy, but the problem with Apple paying much attention to them is that IIRC something like 70% of Mac sales are from laptops.

In other words this argument is that the proverbial 'xMac' might not directly be a profitable product, but the demographic of the individual who buys it is an "Opinion Leader" whose (word of mouth) influence encourages others to adopt the Apple Macintosh as a brand.

Of course, the problem with this line of argument is that its hard to measure and thus prove if its working or not. As the saying goes:

Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.
- John Wanamaker, (attributed); US department store merchant (1838 - 1922)


-hh

I agree. And I think for now they sit here and sell notebooks for high profit and continue to let the desktops do just ok. The opinionated people buying these machines do a great job spreading the word themselves.

I see the mid ranged tower as a fall back plan for Apple. If they ever feel like their profit margins aren't doing well they can simply release a tower and end up with a sudden increase in sales and profit. But that's just how I look at it.

[ericinboston]

This (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary) springs to mind.

yeah, remember that video from awhile ago...funny. "everything is just a few hundred clicks away"

:)

[mr.steevo]

2)Mac Minis are not powerful for me..

What I found surprising is that with some tasks the current mini is faster than the last Quad PowerMac Apple built.

s.

[BRLawyer]

Still the best laptops. If I want an all around good laptop it would be a Mac.

You do indeed get what you pay for.

So the question remains: any "not-cool-enough genius trolls" out there still defending crappy Windows PCs of any kind, or saying that Macs are "overpriced" or faltering in terms of QC? The Windows fanboys that infest this forum really need a reality check.

Apple's computers are and have ALWAYS been the best in the world, not to mention Apple's customer service and overall build quality, which even when selling by the millions are WAY above and beyond anything remotely imaginable in the inferior world of Ballmer's PCs.

The 10-odd friends and colleagues that I've helped switch over the last 2 years are more than glad to agree with me...THERE IS NO TURNING BACK.

MS IS DEAD. DELL IS DEAD.

[xhambonex]

So the question remains: any "not-cool-enough genius trolls" out there still defending crappy Windows PCs of any kind, or saying that Macs are "overpriced" or faltering in terms of QC? The Windows fanboys that infest this forum really need a reality check.

Apple's computers are and have ALWAYS been the best in the world, not to mention Apple's customer service and overall build quality, which even when selling by the millions are WAY above and beyond anything remotely imaginable in the inferior world of Ballmer's PCs.

The 10-odd friends and colleagues that I've helped switch over the last 2 years are more than glad to agree with me...THERE IS NO TURNING BACK.

MS IS DEAD. DELL IS DEAD.

I agree I don't like the random Windows people in here just talking and not contributing in any way.

But the rest of that...:eek:

Ballmer's PCs aren't designed or built by him. So I wouldn't blame him, and the build quality of Apple computers is about as great as other manufacturers out there. Design wise I've seen some really great stuff that will be coming to dell that looks fantastic, its not the same look as an Apple product, but if you try to copy this design its just written off as a bad knock-off. The Whitebook is not anything special design wise, and the MB/MBP line has remained relatively the same for years now.

[Eidorian]

MS IS DEAD. DELL IS DEAD.I only build my own desktop computers.

I'm not scared to have a nice case either (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article810-page1.html). Microsoft is more than happy to provide an operating system for the computers that I build. Apple isn't.

[APPLENEWBIE]

I only build my own desktop computers.

I'm not scared to have a nice case either (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article810-page1.html). Microsoft is more than happy to provide an operating system for the computers that I build. Apple isn't.

Yes, but then you have to use the Microsoft operating system. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there, done that.

[ericinboston]

So the question remains: any "not-cool-enough genius trolls" out there still defending crappy Windows PCs of any kind, or saying that Macs are "overpriced" or faltering in terms of QC? The Windows fanboys that infest this forum really need a reality check.

Apple's computers are and have ALWAYS been the best in the world, not to mention Apple's customer service and overall build quality, which even when selling by the millions are WAY above and beyond anything remotely imaginable in the inferior world of Ballmer's PCs.

The 10-odd friends and colleagues that I've helped switch over the last 2 years are more than glad to agree with me...THERE IS NO TURNING BACK.

MS IS DEAD. DELL IS DEAD.


Here we go again...another pointless soapbox announcement that Apple and all its products are far superior (in every single way) then anything ever created in the PC world. Pure generalization, no specifics, no quantitative input on your post. Great job!

I consider myself a guru in the pc world dating back to around 1985 as well as a proud owner/programmer on the Apple //e computer system for about 10 years. I also consider myself extremely knowledgeable in the "computer world" meaning all things computers...programming, building/modifying hardware, etc. If you want to start a separate thread and post clear, thoughtful, and intelligent ideas and POLITELY debate the world of PC vs. the world of Mac, let's discuss. However, repeated generalized comments like your post above will quickly discredit anything you have to say.



-Eric

[ericinboston]

Yes, but then you have to use the Microsoft operating system. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there, done that.

Ummmm...no. You must be confused with Apple. See, Apple is the one who doesn't want you modifying their hardware or trying to load their OS on some other non-Apple sanctioned hardware.

You can buy almost any pc (or parts and built it yourself) and happily install your favorite flavor of Linux...or Microsoft Windows...or even Apple OS if you know what you are doing and understand you are violating Apple's terms.

On a side note, I'm a huge fan of XP. Been using Pro and Home for about 8 years now. Frankly I don't see what else an OS needs to be...Vista doesn't impress me...Apple OSs don't really offer much difference in comparison. And vice versa. I think 90% of any/all Operating Systems in the market offer core functionality that is fantastic and easy to use...and it can be a long discussion over what an "operating system" truly is vs. what it "is" today.

All the OSs you can buy/try/use over the past 5-10 years offer the same 90% functionality...disk management, networking, user input devices, output device support, graphics capabilities, sound capabilities, programming interface, etc. The 10% difference is really not that much of a difference...it's more of a PREFERENCE if you ask me...how many clicks to do this, how well this APPLICATION is tied to another APPLICATION (be it Windows Media Player and IE or iTunes and Quicktime). It's not at the OS level if you ask me. I have a Mini from 2007 and I use it mainly for dvd authoring and movie editing. Playing with OSX seems almost identical to Windows to me for the normal things like web surfing, cd ripping, MS Office creation, 3rd party utils. The Apple APPLICATIONS are kinda slick as far as integration (iDVD and iMovie for example)...but those are APPLICATIONS...not an operating system. And as a software suite (iLife) I would expect that a suite of products, from any vendor, at any price, should be integrated well.

-Eric

[aristobrat]

Frankly I don't see what else an OS needs to be...Vista doesn't impress me...Apple OSs don't really offer much difference in comparison. And vice versa.
Some of the differences I like about OS X 10.5 are Spotlight (how the OS indexes the files when they're added to the hard drive, so that searches are virtually instantaneous), Time Machine (how the OS keeps track of which files have been modified, so when a backup kicks off, it doesn't have to scan the entire drive to figure out what's changed), Expose and Spaces. That, plus I think Dashboard is a way more effective implementation of widgets/gadgets than the Sidebar.

And until someone comes out with a Linux/Windows version of iLife (with the integration you're talking about, which would also need to extend into the browser, Mail client and other non-suite related programs), what's the technical point of separating iLife from Mac OS X?

[mlblacy]

:)

..yea, I know Apple is not targeting me to buy a Mac. Again, would LOVE to own one of their laptops but I would need a MBPro and I'm just not going to plunk down $2000+ for a machine with 90day phone support and 1 year non-phone-support plus all my other "complaints". I think the PC manufacturers are taking note of Apple's "cool" designs and we are seeing more and more "cooler" pc laptops...for 1/2 or even 1/3 the price....and I'm already 100% used to Windows and extremely comfortable with Windows so what is the compelling reason for me to switch?

Apple should try running a marketing campaign that promotes PC users to switch...give us (anyone actually) a full 30-day (compared to their WEAK 14 day), no questions asked return policy...no 15% restocking fee (a slap in the face policy that's been around for a long time)...and also include on the machine some media files that show common tasks in Windows that are now on the Mac (their in-store tutorials are nice but too far to drive and limited availability).

This is SO funny, on so many points, I don't know where to start. 14 days is weak, and 30 days is "full"?? If you think people choose macs over pcs because their designs are "cool" you are off the mark. By the way that HP desktop design looks strangely familiar, lol. No matter how gee-whiz and slick any computer "looks", that dazzlement will quickly fade when the realization of functionality begins to creep in. Making a pc "look" cool (even if you are cribbing the aesthetics) is kind of like sticking plastic cladding all over cars... and we know how THAT turned out, lol. Frankly you "pc-folks" should love us apple-folks... if it wasn't for us you would still be working on a beige box with a 13" crt.

I am now convinced we have a hoard of PC shills filling the boards with nonsense. I am all for listening to "other" viewpoints, but not when they are so clearly maunfactured. A hearty THANKS to -hh... his post was well-reasoned, and a joy to read. Plus I have heard the phrase "astroturfing" before, but never bothered to look it up. Sounds like that is indeed what is going on.

Sorry if our snarky tones have taken a nasty edge (to you anti-posters), but I just can't believe these are "real".

[APPLENEWBIE]

Ummmm...no. You must be confused with Apple. See, Apple is the one who doesn't want you modifying their hardware or trying to load their OS on some other non-Apple sanctioned hardware.

You can buy almost any pc (or parts and built it yourself) and happily install your favorite flavor of Linux...or Microsoft Windows...or even Apple OS if you know what you are doing and understand you are violating Apple's terms.

On a side note, I'm a huge fan of XP. Been using Pro and Home for about 8 years now. Frankly I don't see what else an OS needs to be...Vista doesn't impress me...Apple OSs don't really offer much difference in comparison. And vice versa. I think 90% of any/all Operating Systems in the market offer core functionality that is fantastic and easy to use...and it can be a long discussion over what an "operating system" truly is vs. what it "is" today.

All the OSs you can buy/try/use over the past 5-10 years offer the same 90% functionality...disk management, networking, user input devices, output device support, graphics capabilities, sound capabilities, programming interface, etc. The 10% difference is really not that much of a difference...it's more of a PREFERENCE if you ask me...how many clicks to do this, how well this APPLICATION is tied to another APPLICATION (be it Windows Media Player and IE or iTunes and Quicktime). It's not at the OS level if you ask me. I have a Mini from 2007 and I use it mainly for dvd authoring and movie editing. Playing with OSX seems almost identical to Windows to me for the normal things like web surfing, cd ripping, MS Office creation, 3rd party utils. The Apple APPLICATIONS are kinda slick as far as integration (iDVD and iMovie for example)...but those are APPLICATIONS...not an operating system. And as a software suite (iLife) I would expect that a suite of products, from any vendor, at any price, should be integrated well.

-Eric

And I quote: "Microsoft is more than happy to provide an operating system for the computers that I build." Seems pretty clear what you are interested in.

EDIT: Oops... Sorry ericboston, I thought you were the guy I quoted...

[ericinboston]

And I quote: "Microsoft is more than happy to provide an operating system for the computers that I build." Seems pretty clear what you are interested in.

EDIT: Oops... Sorry ericboston, I thought you were the guy I quoted...

Wha????????? What are you quoting? You totally lost me...

[xhambonex]

I am now convinced we have a hoard of PC shills filling the boards with nonsense. I am all for listening to "other" viewpoints, but not when they are so clearly maunfactured. \

So did you just exclude yourself because you are an Apple fan and user? Because what you just posted was on the same level as those PC shills you so politely pointed out.

Did you miss the part where Eric owns a mini? I think he's made valid points this whole time, there are things that aren't perfect about Apple.

[aristobrat]

Apple should try running a marketing campaign that promotes PC users to switch...give us (anyone actually) a full 30-day (compared to their WEAK 14 day), no questions asked return policy...no 15% restocking fee (a slap in the face policy that's been around for a long time)
Per your view that Apple stores are too far to drive, might I suggest buying an Apple from another retailer that offers a 30-day return window, like Best Buy? Although I'm not aware of any big-box retailer that doesn't have a restock fee on returned computers (that have been opened). Do you?

...and also include on the machine some media files that show common tasks in Windows that are now on the Mac (their in-store tutorials are nice but too far to drive and limited availability).
Pretty much all of the info available from an Apple Retail Store is available online.

These the tutorials you're talking about?
http://www.apple.com/findouthow/mac/

Have you seen the step-by-step iLife video tutorials?
http://www.apple.com/ilife/tutorials/#iphoto

iWork tutorials?
http://www.apple.com/iwork/tutorials/#pages

[ericinboston]

This is SO funny, on so many points, I don't know where to start. 14 days is weak, and 30 days is "full"?? If you think people choose macs over pcs because their designs are "cool" you are off the mark. By the way that HP desktop design looks strangely familiar, lol. No matter how gee-whiz and slick any computer "looks", that dazzlement will quickly fade when the realization of functionality begins to creep in. Making a pc "look" cool (even if you are cribbing the aesthetics) is kind of like sticking plastic cladding all over cars... and we know how THAT turned out, lol. Frankly you "pc-folks" should love us apple-folks... if it wasn't for us you would still be working on a beige box with a 13" crt....

1)14 days for a refund on a computer (especially that is 100% designed by a single vendor) is weak. Why is it that every other electronic device I buy comes with a 30 day warranty? How is it that 2 weeks is enough time for me to open it up, play, decide if I like, and return it by day 14? I do other things such as work 60 hours a week. :) 30 days gives me, well, TWICE the time to evaluate my product.

2)When did I say people choose Apples (I'm presuming you mean Macs...not iPods or iPhones) because they are cool? I don't recall stating that. However, I would say that "design" is probably a big factor and that probably equates to "cool" in a lot of definitions. And yes, I think Macs (especially the laptops) are "cool" because of the sleek design as well as some of the iLife stuff. Does that make my decision wrong?



Yet again with all the "we Apple people are the smartest and best people on the planet" type comments and your pointless car references.

Why and how is it that people twist words and ideas on this board so easily?

I'm a pc fan but I also own a Mac. So what. Now are you gonna pat my back and tell me you're sorry? I own 3 iPods, too...does that make me a better person? What if I told you I was programming on the Apple //e before you were even born?

Sheeeeez. Take it down a notch.

[ericinboston]

So did you just exclude yourself because you are an Apple fan and user? Because what you just posted was on the same level as those PC shills you so politely pointed out.

Did you miss the part where Eric owns a mini? I think he's made valid points this whole time, there are things that aren't perfect about Apple.

Ya know, I think I'm going to have to create a signature that states I'm an old school Apple lover who just happens to primarily use PCs. Some folks around here just twist every syllable. :)

[xhambonex]

Ya know, I think I'm going to have to create a signature that states I'm an old school Apple lover who just happens to primarily use PCs. Some folks around here just twist every syllable. :)

Maybe that will help. :rolleyes:

I love my MBP, but my time is split 50/50 XP, OS X because Autodesk is slow at adopting some programs to OS X. I'm glad Rhino has a beta up and running, Alias I thought was this year or next. Solidworks would be the last step to complete the puzzle.

But really I have had zero problems with XP period. But I am just faster on a Mac, that's what we had in school, that's what I bought for school, though required to have something that ran XP.

Design wise, well someone in my studio bought a MBP just for the looks and partitioned the HDD to be a primary XP machine. Sounds silly, but people like the looks and he likes the control he has over his OS.

[ericinboston]

Per your view that Apple stores are too far to drive, might I suggest buying an Apple from another retailer that offers a 30-day return window, like Best Buy? Although I'm not aware of any big-box retailer that doesn't have a restock fee on returned computers (that have been opened). Do you?


I'll have to look at those links...thanks!

Um, what I meant about restocking fee was Apple Stores...they make the products, shelve them, sell them, etc. The price NEVER changes over the entire year yet if I bring it back at any point in time, I am charged a 15% restocking fee. Now, from personal experience I demanded it to be waived when I brought back a defective Mini (gasp! can I say this here? will someone call me a liar?) in 2005. But overall that policy is pure garbage. If Apple lowered it's price every month or 2, then a restocking fee may be tougher to swallow. But they don't.

Stores that do not manufacture their own products are welcome to charge a restocking fee...and hence that's why I DO NOT SHOP AT RESTOCKING FEE stores...such as Best Buy or Circuit City. I shop at places like Amazon or Crutchfield. I believe as a consumer that I put up with enough garbage in the electonrics industry and now "restocking fees" that suddenly materialized in 1998 are outlandish. Restocking fees are a store's policy...not the law...I would suggest that everyone shop carefully before buying electronics (amazing that the fees are only for electronics...never for clothes or books or dvds or jewelry...and I hate it when stores try to explain how much an electronic device loses it's value in an amazing 14 days).

:)

[ericinboston]

Maybe that will help. :rolleyes:

Design wise, well someone in my studio bought a MBP just for the looks and partitioned the HDD to be a primary XP machine. Sounds silly, but people like the looks and he likes the control he has over his OS.

I would have just used VMWare...been using this suite of products since 1.0...they are fantastic. I have yet to get a chance to use it on Mac and run a VM of XP but my co-workers have done so and they love it.

[xhambonex]

I would have just used VMWare...been using this suite of products since 1.0...they are fantastic. I have yet to get a chance to use it on Mac and run a VM of XP but my co-workers have done so and they love it.

Yeah but it cost money. I'd probably be ok just using it to run solidworks once Alias migrates to OS X. I can get rendering programs on my OS X no problem. But my next step is doubling my RAM, then once AppleCare is no more hello new 7200rpm HDD.

Maybe in the future I'll look into getting it set up and working, but boot camp has more than served its purpose.

[aristobrat]

Um, what I meant about restocking fee was Apple Stores...they make the products, shelve them, sell them, etc. The price NEVER changes over the entire year yet if I bring it back at any point in time, I am charged a 15% restocking fee.
Again, if you don't agree to the restock fees that Apple Retail charges, buy your Mac from a retailer that doesn't charge a restock fee.

Having said that, I'm unaware of any retailer (even Amazon.com) that guarantees to *not* charge a restock fee when an opened computer is returned for buyers remorse.


and I hate it when stores try to explain how much an electronic device loses it's value in an amazing 14 days).
What?

When you return a device that you've opened, the reseller can not sell it again for the same price you paid.

So in essence, that particular piece of electronics has lost value.

[ericinboston]

Yeah but it cost money. And from what I hear, I don't get all the power I would need for some of things I run into modeling and rendering and such, but maybe the program has improved over the last couple years. My next step is doubling my RAM, then once AppleCare is no more hello new 7200rpm HDD.

Maybe in the future I'll look into getting it set up and working, but boot camp has more than served its purpose.


I don't know enough about your apps on the Mac platform that you are talking about. But in my experience, VMWare has gone leaps and bounds even over the past 2 years. I use it on some work machines...as long as the host operating system (my case would be Windows Server 2003 or 2008) can "see" lots of ram (XP can only see 3gigs) then you can allocate more to VMWare.

For example, I boot to Win2008 with 8gig of RAM. Win2008 really only needs 1gig or less, so now I have 7 left for anything running on the host. I set my VMWare to use 5gigs and poof! my VM (which itself is usually Win2003) runs lickedy split because it sees 5gigs of RAM.

Try the newer VMWare...I'm on 6.5.x on Windows. What's also pretty sweet is that VMWare can open up Ghost and Accronis backup images. :)

Oh, and RAM is cheap...very cheap! :)

[ericinboston]

Again, if you don't agree to the restock fees that Apple Retail charges, buy your Mac from a retailer that doesn't charge a restock fee.

Having said that, I'm unaware of any retailer (even Amazon.com) that guarantees to *not* charge a restock fee when an opened computer is returned for buyers remorse.



What?

When you return a device that you've opened, the reseller can not sell it again for the same price you paid.

So in essence, that particular piece of electronics has lost value.


I think we're miscommunicating. :) I agree with you on all points and I'm not mad. :)

All I'm saying is that until 1998, I could buy any electronic gizmo from any store and have a 30-day-to-play guarantee. Think about how many flavors of a camcorder or dvd player a store sells...and how many are on display?...and that are working? A very low percent...so they used to allow you to take it home, try it out, etc. And if it were a gift and you opened it and found out that the User Manual, for example, stated that the DVD player didn't have an s-video output, you packed it up and brought it back.

Nowadays consumers have let the Retail industry change the game and put all the blame on the consumer. Granted over the past few years websites have made it easier to shop and see "what's in the box" but I'm talking about that this Restocking Fee policy was created long before online electronics stores offered a great shopping/researching experience.

It's not always buyer's remorse...sometimes it's plain busted...and yet the store wants to force to you to take an identical replacement rather than you just saying "you know what, this Sony ____ stinks so why would I try it again?" or "your sales rep told me this Sony ____ came with an illuminated remote control and it doesn't; therefore I want my money back and I will shop at a store that hires honest employees."

-Eric

[BRLawyer]

I also consider myself extremely knowledgeable in the "computer world" meaning all things computers...programming, building/modifying hardware, etc. If you want to start a separate thread and post clear, thoughtful, and intelligent ideas and POLITELY debate the world of PC vs. the world of Mac, let's discuss. However, repeated generalized comments like your post above will quickly discredit anything you have to say.
-Eric

Eric in Boston, you should hang around here more often; then you'd be able to recognize my trademark signature in pretty much everything I post...I have switched more than 10 people to Macs, and they ALL say they will never look back again to the inferior world of the Windows PC.

As for the rest of my diatribes, they just represent the usual statements that are more than deserved when it comes to a platform that adds neither pleasure nor taste to our daily computing experiences. And I'll always be more than ready to counter any unfounded opinions on why on Earth PCs could be better than Macs...unless you like playing millions of different FPS games, of course.

Again, MS IS DEAD. Just wait for its burial in due course.

[DMann]

Eric in Boston, you should hang around here more often; then you'd be able to recognize my trademark signature in pretty much everything I post...I have switched more than 10 people to Macs, and they ALL say they will never look back again to the inferior world of the Windows PC.

As for the rest of my diatribes, they just represent the usual statements that are more than deserved when it comes to a platform that adds neither pleasure nor taste to our daily computing experiences. And I'll always be more than ready to counter any unfounded opinions on why on Earth PCs could be better than Macs...unless you like playing millions of different FPS games, of course.

Again, MS IS DEAD. Just wait for its burial in due course.
With SBallmer at the helm, they are headed well below sea level.

[polaris20]

I'll have to look at those links...thanks!

Um, what I meant about restocking fee was Apple Stores...they make the products, shelve them, sell them, etc. The price NEVER changes over the entire year yet if I bring it back at any point in time, I am charged a 15% restocking fee. Now, from personal experience I demanded it to be waived when I brought back a defective Mini (gasp! can I say this here? will someone call me a liar?) in 2005. But overall that policy is pure garbage. If Apple lowered it's price every month or 2, then a restocking fee may be tougher to swallow. But they don't.

Stores that do not manufacture their own products are welcome to charge a restocking fee...and hence that's why I DO NOT SHOP AT RESTOCKING FEE stores...such as Best Buy or Circuit City. I shop at places like Amazon or Crutchfield. I believe as a consumer that I put up with enough garbage in the electonrics industry and now "restocking fees" that suddenly materialized in 1998 are outlandish. Restocking fees are a store's policy...not the law...I would suggest that everyone shop carefully before buying electronics (amazing that the fees are only for electronics...never for clothes or books or dvds or jewelry...and I hate it when stores try to explain how much an electronic device loses it's value in an amazing 14 days).

:)

Just to play devil's advocate, I don't think Apple can legally sell a returned, re-packed computer as new; therefore that might be why they charge 15%, because they're unwilling to "eat" the loss in money when they turn around and sell it as refurbished.

But given the cost of the Apple machines in the first place, that may or may not be a slap in the face anyway.

[-hh]

I am now convinced we have a hoard of PC shills filling the boards with nonsense. I am all for listening to "other" viewpoints, but not when they are so clearly maunfactured. A hearty THANKS to -hh... his post was well-reasoned, and a joy to read. Plus I have heard the phrase "astroturfing" before, but never bothered to look it up. Sounds like that is indeed what is going on.

Sorry if our snarky tones have taken a nasty edge (to you anti-posters), but I just can't believe these are "real".

Being an eternal optimist, I sincerely hope that this isn't a bunch of Astroturfers, but merely some enthusiastic young adults who simply haven't had the years (decades) of experience with how business ... including IT ... tends to work, and where there's been many many instances of dirty dealings that were ultimately for the corporation to profit at the expense of the consumer.

Not to pick on anyone, but for an example, I did subsequently notice that BMW Fan mentioned a job interview. It is that time of year for College Seniors, afterall, and landing a job often results in thinking about what new toys could be forthcoming after a few paychecks, etc.

Also as an aside, with the large recent upswing in 'new people' to the Mac platform, we also should try to be aware that this could be a modern repeat of the "Eternal September" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September) phenominon ... and more to the point, this should be heeded by both the Greybeards as well as the Newcomers.


1)14 days for a refund on a computer (especially that is 100% designed by a single vendor) is weak. Why is it that every other electronic device I buy comes with a 30 day warranty?

FWIW, I think that this is a point worthy of discussion and debate, particularly if Apple's objective is to grow their market share.


What if I told you I was programming on the Apple //e before you were even born?

Personally, I'd have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it would nice to be significantly younger ... but then again, it wouldn't be particularly nice to aslo be as many years further away from retirement. Of course, my old Apple was a ][+, not one of those newfangled ones that had came from the factory with both Lowercase and Uppercase letters. :D


-hh

[ericinboston]

Eric in Boston, you should hang around here more often; then you'd be able to recognize my trademark signature in pretty much everything I post...I have switched more than 10 people to Macs, and they ALL say they will never look back again to the inferior world of the Windows PC.

As for the rest of my diatribes, they just represent the usual statements that are more than deserved when it comes to a platform that adds neither pleasure nor taste to our daily computing experiences. And I'll always be more than ready to counter any unfounded opinions on why on Earth PCs could be better than Macs...unless you like playing millions of different FPS games, of course.

Again, MS IS DEAD. Just wait for its burial in due course.


I'm not sure I'm following you yet I believe you and I may agree on some points.

1)Let's be clear on the PC industry vs. Microsoft. There is a huge difference and would take thousands of man hours to write such a novel. :) If you have a beef with either, please elaborate.

2)I don't think MS is dead. Since the early 90s they have really grown from an OS-only company to offering products/services in applications, databases, backend systems, and high availability. Granted Sun/Linux/Unix is sometimes preferred by companies, the fact remains that MS is used by millions of companies throughout the world for IT infrastructure as well as end user operating systems and end user applications. If you wish to clarify your "MS is dead" statement, go for it. :)

3)I think MS has been running out of ideas on OS improvements for years now. Not because MS is out of ideas, but we all remember the Monopoly cases that MS has faced, mainly the IE browser integration. So here sits MS in 2002-ish timeframe when they were beaten by numerous government lawsuits about how much it can integrate IE (and maybe other stuff) into the OS. This comes back to my definition of an OS. Now let's look at Apple who has all-governing power of it's Mac family (and I'm not complaining about it) yet Apple has not been sued about their iLife free giveaway, or Safari, or whatever other applications they give away or bundle tightly. Maybe someday Apple will be sued. Who knows.

I think MS has had a tough time trying to figure out what to do...on one hand they can't integrate too much into the OS or they will get sued and again lose billions. On the other hand if they go back to the OS days of DOS or WFWG 3.11 where only core services were included, they lose sales of their other products. So it's a catch-22 for MS. Let me look at Vista for a moment...throw out all your notions about it's over-secure-mom mentality...I look at Vista...LOOK....and I see just a few enhancements of the menus and pretty screens. Big deal. That's why I did not upgrade. Months after the release did it become known that Vista had hardware compatibility probs and stuff...so I'm glad that I stood by my XP...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, I think all the OSes that have been released over the past 10 years or so offer the same 90% stuff. There's only so much in the Operating System market segment that can have room for improvement. Unless the next Apple OS has built in telepathy, I don't know what the next big thing is for an OS.

So please let us know what you mean by "MS is dead"

Now your other comment about switching users....and? So what? I've switched people from 1 product to another all the time. Let me give you my reason why I haven't switch a Mac user to a PC user...you ready? here we go: I know about 2 Mac users out of literally hundreds of computer users (and I'm sure we all know hundreds of computer users because everyone these days uses a computer). Yup. And they love their Macs just like I love my PCs. Just because you switched 10 people doesn't mean they were special people. How do we know they weren't 10 grandmas that in 2008 were using Windows95 and you switched them to the latest Mac? I'm playing devils' advocate here...they could have been people who plunked down $1500 for an overpriced Gateway back in 2003 and you turned them on to an iMac for relatively the same price. Again, everyone can claim they switched someone from 1 product to another.

By using words like "inferior" in your posts, you are still not being descriptive enough.

I am a Windows guy because that's what I've been using since 1993...it's also the operating system family that 8 out of my 8 employers have used since 1994...6 public hi-tech companies, 1 school system, and 1 non-profit healthcare company. I have my Mini and I use it for what ***I*** need...video editing. It cost me an arm and leg to buy it (in my opinion since it was $1300) but I couldn't find a cheaper-priced software solution on the pc platform (you're not going to blame MS or Dell for this are you?). And although it cost a lot, it does a great job. My wife also loves it for iPhoto organization (which to me means absolutely nothing). And using Firefox on the Mini is the same as on my XP...ditto for MS Office, Adobe Acrobat, and other cross-platform apps.

So not sure we stand on this broad topic...I'm always up for a good discussion but please try to be as thorough as possible.

[ericinboston]

Personally, I'd have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it would nice to be significantly younger ... but then again, it wouldn't be particularly nice to aslo be as many years further away from retirement. Of course, my old Apple was a ][+, not one of those newfangled ones that had came from the factory with both Lowercase and Uppercase letters. :D


-hh

And the days when bandwidth was measured in baud. Not Kilobaud. Baud. :)

I had a Zoom modem @ 300 baud for a long time. :)

[Sehnsucht]

Well the second guy I posted moved his mom back to windows, and is moving back to windows the next purchase he makes because his apple products were more defective than the pc products.

edit: another example of a mac user going back to windows after his apple experience.

http://www.appledefects.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=392

Sounds like the guy wasn't so much a dissatisfied customer as he was a vindictive little ******. :rolleyes: He didn't even have problems with his iPod, and his mother apparently didn't have any problems with her Mac, yet he gets rid of those too and makes sure to post a snarky message informing everyone how he just ordered a Zune. Now if that wasn't a classic four-year-old temper tantrum, I don't know what is.

It's one thing to be angry when you've been mistreated and scoffed at by those in the customer service business, it's another thing entirely to go on some zealous anti-Apple boycott and eliminate everything with the Apple logo on it because of how two or three people working for said company allegedly treated you. Sure, I'm happy that your Dell Latitude is having no problems, but chucking your mom's Mac too? Get a life. :rolleyes:

[hiimamac]

Making the PC look cool. Tell me about it.

Remember when the iMac first came out? Beige bid makers simply out lime green or blue platic over the case. Hedious. Why is that. I don't want to sound racial but really, don't the chinese have a little more imagination???

Also, since iLife is so great fir what it is, you have to wonder why someone like Sony (Vegas, Acid, engineers from sonic foundry/Sony created Garage Band), don't come out with something like iLife. It would sell well.

Sometimes I am struck at how bad some, not all, PC software is, ummm, Songsmith, really? Are you kidding me? And then there are simple things. In a mac, PDF, zip, png files default, on a pc, you need to install so much software just to do routine things and again, why no iLife similar package fir PC, surely it can't be that hard to code.

This is SO funny, on so many points, I don't know where to start. 14 days is weak, and 30 days is "full"?? If you think people choose macs over pcs because their designs are "cool" you are off the mark. By the way that HP desktop design looks strangely familiar, lol. No matter how gee-whiz and slick any computer "looks", that dazzlement will quickly fade when the realization of functionality begins to creep in. Making a pc "look" cool (even if you are cribbing the aesthetics) is kind of like sticking plastic cladding all over cars... and we know how THAT turned out, lol. Frankly you "pc-folks" should love us apple-folks... if it wasn't for us you would still be working on a beige box with a 13" crt.

I am now convinced we have a hoard of PC shills filling the boards with nonsense. I am all for listening to "other" viewpoints, but not when they are so clearly maunfactured. A hearty THANKS to -hh... his post was well-reasoned, and a joy to read. Plus I have heard the phrase "astroturfing" before, but never bothered to look it up. Sounds like that is indeed what is going on.

Sorry if our snarky tones have taken a nasty edge (to you anti-posters), but I just can't believe these are "real".

[polaris20]

Also, since iLife is so great fir what it is, you have to wonder why someone like Sony (Vegas, Acid, engineers from sonic foundry/Sony created Garage Band), don't come out with something like iLife. It would sell well.


Not counting iWeb, Sony+Google Picasa is iLife for Windows. It's just more expensive, not quite as elegant (IMO), and isn't sold together.

I lived with it for quite awhile, actually. I used Sony Vegas Studio ($80 version) which is/was quite nice, and also used Acid Pro. Acid was horribly unstable though compared to GarageBand, which, for me two versions in is completely stable even with a ton of tracks and effects.

Picasa is a very good competitor for iPhoto.

[ericinboston]

Sometimes I am struck at how bad some, not all, PC software is, ummm, Songsmith, really? Are you kidding me? And then there are simple things. In a mac, PDF, zip, png files default, on a pc, you need to install so much software just to do routine things and again, why no iLife similar package fir PC, surely it can't be that hard to code.

1)If MS created an iLife suite, they would get their pants sued so fast because it would "infringe" on other software vendor's ability to have a competitive marketplace...see my post a few lines up about the MS Monopoly catch-22.

2)PNG are not normal files if you ask me...at least compared to JPG or GIF or AVI or BAT or the tons of others. Moreover, Windows DOES include ZIP decompression...been in there for a long time. Windows, however, does not give you the ability to compress. That's licensing between MS and Winzip...can't blame anyone in particular there. PDF support is supplied by Adobe...and I believe Macs do not come with PDF support out of the box, but maybe I am wrong.

#2 is really a moot topic...it's all about the fine line of what the operating system vendor (MS or Apple) wishes to ship with what integration...which boils down to development time, licensing fees, supportability/responsibility, etc. I have never heard of anyone in the Windows world who couldn't open a PDF or ZIP or JPG out of the box...unless they are completely clueless and probably shouldn't even be playing with those filetypes let alone a toaster. :)

-Eric

[ericinboston]

[QUOTE=polaris20;7572415]Not counting iWeb, Sony+Google Picasa is iLife for Windows. It's just more expensive, not quite as elegant (IMO), and isn't sold together.

I lived with it for quite awhile, actually. I used Sony Vegas Studio ($80 version) which is/was quite nice, and also used Acid Pro. Acid was horribly unstable though compared to GarageBand, which, for me two versions in is completely stable even with a ton of tracks and effects. QUOTE]

I know we are deviating from the thread but...what was wrong with Acid Pro? I've used versions 2-6 on XP Home (on 2 different Dells with 1-3gig ram, SATA drives, and a single core and quad core system) and love it. Unstable as in poor effects performance (like the soundcard couldn't "keep up" with the demand)?

You need to realize that software for the PC has to run on billions of more combinations than software on a Mac...so the authors of Garageband only have to worry about a handful of hardware specs while Sony (used to be Sonic Foundry) has to attempt to be compatible with 100 different sound cards, CPUs, graphics cards, etc.

I'm not trying to state it was you and not Acid...I've tried Garageband and hate it compared to what Acid Pro (or even the $69 Consumer version) can do.

[DMann]

1)PDF support is supplied by Adobe...and I believe Macs do not come with PDF support out of the box, but maybe I am wrong. Preview, which has it's roots in NeXT's OPENSTEP OS, is the app included for displaying PDFs, as well as AI, BMP, DNG, EPS, FPX, GIF, HDR, ICNS, ICO, JPEG, OpenEXR, PS, PSD, PICT, PNG, PNTG, QTIF, RAD, RAW, SGI, TGA TIF, TIFF, XBM, and including FAX files.

[dejo]

2)...and I believe Macs do not come with PDF support out of the box, but maybe I am wrong.
Edit: DMann beat me to the punch. Also, you can easily print to PDF from within the standard print dialog.

[Eidorian]

You can create compressed files/folders (.zip) in Windows in addition to decompressing them.

OS X includes PDF reading and creation support out of the box. I do remember Microsoft wanting to include it Office 2007 but dropped it because of Adobe.

Preview, which has it's roots in NeXT's OPENSTEP OS, is the app included for displaying PDFs, as well as AI, BMP, DNG, EPS, FPX, GIF, HDR, ICNS, ICO, JPEG, OpenEXR, PS, PSD, PICT, PNG, PNTG, QTIF, RAD, RAW, SGI, TGA TIF, TIFF, XBM, and including FAX files.TIFF support is there but I've found it to be shaky or end up with converted files large than the original TIFF. Don't ask me why Preview does that.

[DMann]

Edit: DMann beat me to the punch. Also, you can easily print to PDF from within the standard print dialog.This happens to be a great asset in OS X.

You can create compressed files/folders (.zip) in Windows in addition to decompressing them.

OS X includes PDF reading and creation support out of the box. I do remember Microsoft wanting to include it Office 2007 but dropped it because of Adobe.

TIFF support is there but I've found it to be shaky or end up with converted files large than the original TIFF. Don't ask me why Preview does that. I've experienced this too - hopefully this will be fixed in 10.6. I use VueScan to edit my TIFF files for now. At the very least, Preview seems to open and read them with no problem.

[polaris20]

I know we are deviating from the thread but...what was wrong with Acid Pro? I've used versions 2-6 on XP Home (on 2 different Dells with 1-3gig ram, SATA drives, and a single core and quad core system) and love it. Unstable as in poor effects performance (like the soundcard couldn't "keep up" with the demand)?

You need to realize that software for the PC has to run on billions of more combinations than software on a Mac...so the authors of Garageband only have to worry about a handful of hardware specs while Sony (used to be Sonic Foundry) has to attempt to be compatible with 100 different sound cards, CPUs, graphics cards, etc.

I'm not trying to state it was you and not Acid...I've tried Garageband and hate it compared to what Acid Pro (or even the $69 Consumer version) can do.

Trust me, I've got plenty of experience with DAWs going back many years. Acid was unstable in regards to 3rd party plug-ins, be it effect or instrument. I loved the workflow though, so I dealt with it until I tried Tracktion in 2005. I then switched to that and didn't look back until I switched to the Mac.

I realize Windows software has to run on a lot of different hardware, however Tracktion and Reaper (which I also used) never had the problems no matter if I was using my Presonus FW interface, Line6 TonePort, or Tascam USB interface, on home built Athlon systems, Intel laptops......whatever.

I just didn't have good luck with stability on Acid, unfortunately.

[AidenShaw]

I just didn't have good luck with stability on Acid, unfortunately.

That was a common problem in the '70s ...

[*LTD*]

Preview, which has it's roots in NeXT's OPENSTEP OS, is the app included for displaying PDFs, as well as AI, BMP, DNG, EPS, FPX, GIF, HDR, ICNS, ICO, JPEG, OpenEXR, PS, PSD, PICT, PNG, PNTG, QTIF, RAD, RAW, SGI, TGA TIF, TIFF, XBM, and including FAX files.

How true. Preview is a thing of beauty.

[-hh]

And the days when bandwidth was measured in baud. Not Kilobaud. Baud. :)

I had a Zoom modem @ 300 baud for a long time. :)

Hayes 50/110/300. And of course we kept them for a long time, because those modems cost a ton of money.

IIRC, it cost around $300 "back then", which as per the CPI (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/), bringing it forward from circa 1980 to today, it would be $774.



-hh

[JAT]

All I'm saying is that until 1998, I could buy any electronic gizmo from any store and have a 30-day-to-play guarantee. Think about how many flavors of a camcorder or dvd player a store sells...and how many are on display?...and that are working? A very low percent...so they used to allow you to take it home, try it out, etc. And if it were a gift and you opened it and found out that the User Manual, for example, stated that the DVD player didn't have an s-video output, you packed it up and brought it back.


Gifts have special receipts that avoid this issue. If giving a purchase as a gift, ask for one.

They did not "used to allow you to....try it out". People took advantage of earlier policies.

Think about this. You are saying you should have the right to take a computer or TV home, use it for 4 weeks, then return it for no charge. Then, presumably, you will get a different one, use it for 4 weeks, return it for no charge. Etc. So...you "own" a TV for as long as you want with no rent, no purchase? You really think that is ethical? You really think Best Buy should allow that? This is theft if you get down to brass tacks.

You can't have expensive electronics for nothing. It was hacks doing this very thing that made stores create the restocking fees in the first place. Even Costco had to stop their forever-return-with-no-fee policy. It is now 90 days for electronics, started just 4 years ago or so. People would buy a 42" plasma for $3000, wait a year until 42" plasmas were $2000 with a better picture, then return the old one and buy the new one, pocketing the $1000. There would be no stores left if they allowed this to continue.

There are a few direct to consumer companies that still offer such policies, though. SVS sells subwoofers and other speakers with a 45 day policy, so do a couple subwoofer competitors of their's. Select Comfort and a couple other mattress manufacturers have 30 day policies, IIRC. And so forth. These companies tend to have products that are not ever returned, though.

[AidenShaw]

Select Comfort and a couple other mattress manufacturers have 30 day policies, IIRC. And so forth. These companies tend to have products that are not ever returned, though.

Used mattresses - ick. What if heterosexuals had used them? Ick. Ick. Ick.

[vipergts2207]

Gifts have special receipts that avoid this issue. If giving a purchase as a gift, ask for one.

They did not "used to allow you to....try it out". People took advantage of earlier policies.

Think about this. You are saying you should have the right to take a computer or TV home, use it for 4 weeks, then return it for no charge. Then, presumably, you will get a different one, use it for 4 weeks, return it for no charge. Etc. So...you "own" a TV for as long as you want with no rent, no purchase? You really think that is ethical? You really think Best Buy should allow that? This is theft if you get down to brass tacks.

You can't have expensive electronics for nothing. It was hacks doing this very thing that made stores create the restocking fees in the first place. Even Costco had to stop their forever-return-with-no-fee policy. It is now 90 days for electronics, started just 4 years ago or so. People would buy a 42" plasma for $3000, wait a year until 42" plasmas were $2000 with a better picture, then return the old one and buy the new one, pocketing the $1000. There would be no stores left if they allowed this to continue.

There are a few direct to consumer companies that still offer such policies, though. SVS sells subwoofers and other speakers with a 45 day policy, so do a couple subwoofer competitors of their's. Select Comfort and a couple other mattress manufacturers have 30 day policies, IIRC. And so forth. These companies tend to have products that are not ever returned, though.

Yeah I was going to say, seems like a couple douche bags ruining things for everyone, not stores trying to rip people off.

[Sehnsucht]

Used mattresses - ick. What if heterosexuals had used them? Ick. Ick. Ick.

LMAO! Now that made my day. :D

[ericinboston]

Gifts have special receipts that avoid this issue. If giving a purchase as a gift, ask for one.

They did not "used to allow you to....try it out". People took advantage of earlier policies.

Think about this. You are saying you should have the right to take a computer or TV home, use it for 4 weeks, then return it for no charge. Then, presumably, you will get a different one, use it for 4 weeks, return it for no charge. Etc. So...you "own" a TV for as long as you want with no rent, no purchase? You really think that is ethical? You really think Best Buy should allow that? This is theft if you get down to brass tacks.

You can't have expensive electronics for nothing. It was hacks doing this very thing that made stores create the restocking fees in the first place. Even Costco had to stop their forever-return-with-no-fee policy. It is now 90 days for electronics, started just 4 years ago or so. People would buy a 42" plasma for $3000, wait a year until 42" plasmas were $2000 with a better picture, then return the old one and buy the new one, pocketing the $1000. There would be no stores left if they allowed this to continue.

There are a few direct to consumer companies that still offer such policies, though. SVS sells subwoofers and other speakers with a 45 day policy, so do a couple subwoofer competitors of their's. Select Comfort and a couple other mattress manufacturers have 30 day policies, IIRC. And so forth. These companies tend to have products that are not ever returned, though.

Hi Jat,

1)No, gift receipts are simply receipts for the gift receiver (and usually do not have the price listed but it's buried in the store/receipt codes)...the same store rules apply...they just get a receipt so they know where to return it. If they open the dvd player and find that it is silver instead of black, they will still get harassed by the store to exchange/refund it. Same rules...just that they have a receipt showing when/where it was purchased.

2)You are greatly exaggerating about taking home a pc, using it for 30 days, returning it, and starting the cycle. Nobody is going to waste so much time especially since computers are all about personal customization. I doubt someone would do your scenario for a digital camera or dvd player because it's just not worth the time and aggravation. And I never said it was ethical and you are still expanding the scope of my statements. Yes, I'm sure *someone* will do it...probably a college kid or teenager but not all the time for all devices. Maybe a boombox they can take on vacation and return it.

3)If Costco ever had a return-it-whenever policy then whatever genius made that policy should have been fired. :)

4)Yes, stores did allow you to "try it out". In the 80s and early 90s I heard radio ads, saw tv ads, and even heard from the employees at stores like Sears, Walmart, Crutchfield, and Tweeter to try it at home. I still hear it all the time with furniture stores offering 30 and 60 day "trials" with 0 risk. Again, you want to be sure that, for example, your speakers don't stink...or that your tv doesn't look poor...or that your dvd player does in fact have s-video out or do up-conversion as the sales rep stated or isn't silver instead of black (JVC routinely makes their home devices in multiple colors). I'm a huge electronics fan and until the past few years with the web, you could never get the sales rep at a store to provide you with a Users Manual to check specifications. I can't list every example but I'm not sure why you don't believe me about this 30-day policy regarding electronics. Heck, I can return almost anything at Home Depot within 90 days no question asked...I've returned a space heater that died as well as a defective microwave...no problemo...even a light that was too large once we got it ready to be installed. Sometime around 2005 Sears changed it's policy to now include a Restocking Fee...they were pretty much the last brick and mortar retail giant to implement it while others had adopted it in 1998 or so.

Moreover, have you noticed that places like Best Buy and Staples now only have 14 days?...so they implemented the Restocking Fee program a decade ago and then sometime in the recent past they also quietly added "electronics can only be returned within 14 days while everything else in our store can be 30 days".


I'm just stating raw facts about how it used to be before the late-90s store return policies radically changed...and that the public just shrugged it off and paid the ridiculous fees. I have never paid such a fee and never will...whether it's the time I politely told the Apple Store manager I wasn't going to pay it on my Mini (it was broken and they wanted to force me to get a replacement) or just by me (nowadays) being able to shop at numerous websites to get all the infomration and honest reviews before purchasing. I think the "reviews" on websites are extremely valuable in me choosing if the device is actually friendly/usable/worth the money rather than only tech specs.

[polaris20]

That was a common problem in the '70s ...

nyuck, nyuck, nyuck

http://www.mofolandia.com.br/tres_patetas/curly.jpg

[applecultvictim]

Used mattresses - ick. What if heterosexuals had used them? Ick. Ick. Ick.
Aiden, can you tell us how you chose your nick, the name aiden Shaw rings a bell very akin to your comment!

[-hh]

Unfortunately, when Apple decides on a way its their way or the highway. It is sad that they don't have an optional wireless kb with numpad for those that want one.

Oddly enough, I happen to have an Apple Bluetooth keyboard with Keypad.

It is of what is now the older style ... white keys, plastic enclosure (clear plastic around the edges).

Might be able to find one used on eBay...or make me an offer I can't refuse. Do I hear $500 (and a firewire iSight)? :D


-hh

[JAT]

Ok, first. I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking you. Me, I don't like these things anymore than you. But I am angry at a different group on this topic......


2)You are greatly exaggerating about taking home a pc, using it for 30 days, returning it, and starting the cycle. Nobody is going to waste so much time especially since computers are all about personal customization. I doubt someone would do your scenario for a digital camera or dvd player because it's just not worth the time and aggravation. And I never said it was ethical and you are still expanding the scope of my statements. Yes, I'm sure *someone* will do it...probably a college kid or teenager but not all the time for all devices. Maybe a boombox they can take on vacation and return it.
And yet that has happened. I'm not sure why you are denying that, maybe you could ask some CEOs for verification? Perhaps a TV would fit better in that example than a PC. (probably why I used it as the example rather than a PC :rolleyes:)

Also, there have been many instances of PCs being returned without certain internal parts, or software CDs. Perhaps you noticed sometime in the last decade the little "warranty invalid if tampered/removed" stickers showing up over certain screws on boxes? Similar reasons behind those policies. The software companies have also had a hand in policies specific to computers.

3)If Costco ever had a return-it-whenever policy then whatever genius made that policy should have been fired. :)
They still do, just not for electronics. Just last year I exchanged a lantern that I had owned for around 12 months. It had never worked properly and I finally gave up on it. It was not an obvious defect, so it took time. The new one works.
http://www.costco.com/Service/FeaturePageLeftNav.aspx?ProductNo=11204333

4)Yes, stores did allow you to "try it out". In the 80s and early 90s I heard radio ads, saw tv ads, and even heard from the employees at stores like Sears, Walmart, Crutchfield, and Tweeter to try it at home. I still hear it all the time with furniture stores offering 30 and 60 day "trials" with 0 risk.
Those are specific programs, and are more common for something like furniture that really needs a trial period. They also tend to be for special sales, like at holiday times. I thought we were talking about retail standards for electronics. The standard is, you check it out in the store. Speakers ought to be different from other electronics as they ought to be heard on location to test, and I gave an example of a manufacturer that does this, but a DVD player is pretty cut and dried and shouldn't need it.

Moreover, have you noticed that places like Best Buy and Staples now only have 14 days?...so they implemented the Restocking Fee program a decade ago and then sometime in the recent past they also quietly added "electronics can only be returned within 14 days while everything else in our store can be 30 days".
Wouldn't be caught dead buying electronics at Best Buy, frankly. But none of this surprises me. Probably because I understand why it all started.


I'm just stating raw facts about how it used to be before the late-90s store return policies radically changed...and that the public just shrugged it off and paid the ridiculous fees.
And I'm just explaining why it happened. You don't have to like it, but it is scam artists who caused this change. And they are part of the "public". You mentioned college kids might do this....do you have any idea just how many consumers are, will be or have been to college? I mean, you covered a whole hell of a lot of people with that. Even if the 40 year old version of a person is not willing to scam Best Buy today, the 20 year old may have been in 1989.

[JAT]

Used mattresses - ick. What if heterosexuals had used them? Ick. Ick. Ick.

So....gay folks are gay because they are disgusted by the opposite sex? That's not what the PC idiots usually say.
(PC not refering to computers in this post)

[veeco3110]

i can haz apple computer? woah what just happened?

[Farns514]

You get what you pay for!!! I always tell people that, and Apple is doing a great job keeping up the look of its Brand Equity. Being a college student, i was more than happy to put out $1600 for my laptop, best one i have ever had.

[ericinboston]

Those are specific programs, and are more common for something like furniture that really needs a trial period. They also tend to be for special sales, like at holiday times. I thought we were talking about retail standards for electronics. The standard is, you check it out in the store. Speakers ought to be different from other electronics as they ought to be heard on location to test, and I gave an example of a manufacturer that does this, but a DVD player is pretty cut and dried and shouldn't need it.

Ok...very long post you have there, Jat...and I agree with most of it about the .001% of the population that will do anything to get something for free or steal.

However, I disagree very very much with your quote here...I can't stress enough that until around 1998, I could walk into almost any retailer (regardless if they even sold electronics), buy something, and have 30 days to return it for ANY REASON. Period. It was never a special promotion. That's just "the way it was" back in the good old days. Period. End of story.

These days (the past 10 or so years), yes, it's very very very hard to find a store that will give you the same "good ol days 30-day return policy". And I'm sure there are a number of factors why...mainly a)the .001% that do steal b)the proliferation of the web makes it much easier to "shop around" both for specs, reviews, and prices thus you are much more knowledgeable before buying and thus far less likely to return (other than defects) and c)that the proliferation of personal computers (they really took off in sales around 1996) fell into the broad category of "electronic devices" and yes, people returned them because they didn't like the way it worked or couldn't plug the cords in or a billion other reasons.

So in essence I think you and I are on the same page. I'm almost 40 years old so I do know what it was like to shop in the 80s and 90s for electronics. :) So I've been there...and I'm here now.

Lastly, I will agree with you that I can't stand BB...hate them...unless they have a great sale on blank dvds, I never buy a single thing from them. I'm more of an Amazon, Crutchfield, Newegg, Vanns kinda guy...all 4 of those retailers are sooooo awesome that I will likely never need a 5th electronics retailer.

:)

-Eric

[VoR]

You get what you pay for!!! I always tell people that, and Apple is doing a great job keeping up the look of its Brand Equity. Being a college student, i was more than happy to put out $1600 for my laptop, best one i have ever had.

Strange, I'm always telling people the opposite!
People (especially here on mr ;)) see different value in computers and it's been done 1000x on this forum with some pretty silly arguments, let's not bother - I could give you a huge list of products and services where you don't get more for your money.
Mentioning brand equity in the same sentence is a little strange :)

[Farns514]

Strange, I'm always telling people the opposite!
People (especially here on mr ;)) see different value in computers and it's been done 1000x on this forum with some pretty silly arguments, let's not bother - I could give you a huge list of products and services where you don't get more for your money.
Mentioning brand equity in the same sentence is a little strange :)

It's all my opinion and what i have come to learn from the aspects of business during my time studying at school. :) Maybe i am right, maybe i am wrong, who knows. I support what i said, its like buying a flat panel tv at wal-mart. Wal-mart sells some of the crappiest tv's you can buy compared to many other high end electronic stores, where you actually get quality and pay for it. You pay for all the features, quality and such. I mentioned Brand Equity because by apple creating such a high quality products it allows their marketing department to market their company as a great quality company and can offer their products at a higher cost because they know people are willing to shell out the cash for what they are going to get in return. I have always been a PC/Windows person for since i was 20, and since purchasing this Unibody macbook i would not look back. I have had Dells, gateways, IBM's, and HP's, none of them compared to it.

I talked about brand equity being consumer based, a strong brand increases the consumers attitude/strength towards all the products associated with Apple.

To me, a lot of the arguments are of middle class mindsets, I am middle class. I always get the situations based on car models, 'oh its just a high end ford, so you should just buy a Ford'. Thats when they are talking about a Jaguar, Range Rover, Lexus, Mercedes. Yes you are paying for the name and the status, but you are also paying for all the extra quality in the leather, shocks,audio,suspension, engine,warranty etc.

Again, all my opinion, i tend to go towards the higher end products. :):D:apple:

[Eidorian]

It's all my opinion and what i have come to learn from the aspects of business during my time studying at school. :) Maybe i am right, maybe i am wrong, who knows. I support what i said, its like buying a flat panel tv at wal-mart. Wal-mart sells some of the crappiest tv's you can buy compared to many other high end electronic stores, where you actually get quality and pay for it. You pay for all the features, quality and such. I mentioned Brand Equity because by apple creating such a high quality products it allows their marketing department to market their company as a great quality company and can offer their products at a higher cost because they know people are willing to shell out the cash for what they are going to get in return. I have always been a PC/Windows person for since i was 20, and since purchasing this Unibody macbook i would not look back. I have had Dells, gateways, IBM's, and HP's, none of them compared to it.

I talked about brand equity being consumer based, a strong brand increases the consumers attitude/strength towards all the products associated with Apple.

To me, a lot of the arguments are of middle class mindsets, I am middle class. I always get the situations based on car models, 'oh its just a high end ford, so you should just buy a Ford'. Thats when they are talking about a Jaguar, Range Rover, Lexus, Mercedes. Yes you are paying for the name and the status, but you are also paying for all the extra quality in the leather, shocks,audio,suspension, engine,warranty etc.

Again, all my opinion, i tend to go towards the higher end products. :):D:apple:Please tell me how a model identical to another one is worse because it's in a Wal-Mart.

It's almost like you're telling me to only buy a Mac from the Apple Store because that's where it's the most expensive.

[vipergts2207]

Please tell me how a model identical to another one is worse because it's in a Wal-Mart.

It's almost like you're telling me to only buy a Mac from the Apple Store because that's where it's the most expensive.

He's not saying the same models are better between different stores. For example, at Wal-mart the best Sony you can get is the S-series, which is a low end Sony model (though still better than the subpar Vizios and Emersons). At Best Buy and other electronic stores you can get V, W, Z series, etc. all the way up to the ultra high-end XBR's.

[Farns514]

Please tell me how a model identical to another one is worse because it's in a Wal-Mart.

It's almost like you're telling me to only buy a Mac from the Apple Store because that's where it's the most expensive.

Definitely not saying that. I am pretty much saying Wal-mart has all the 'older' technology even though its not that old. Wal-mart is such a powerhouse that they can bully companies into doing what Wal-mart wants them to do and in return, some companies must lower cost of producing that product to get it at the price that wal-mart wants to sell it at or keep the price the same and make the smallest profit possible. Go look at the best flat panel at your local wal-mart and compare it to other major electronic suppliers (Refresh rate/contrast ratio and such). Look at all the specifications. One example, the new LED tv's that are coming out, you wont see them hit Wal-mart shelves for what i am guessing from 6 months to a year or more. :)

He's not saying the same models are better between different stores. For example, at Wal-mart the best Sony you can get is the S-series, which is a low end Sony model (though still better than the crappy Vizio's and Emerson's). At Best Buy and other electronic stores you can get V, W, Z series, etc. all the way up to the ultra high-end XBR's.

Thank you, you know what i am talking about.

[Eidorian]

He's not saying the same models are better between different stores. For example, at Wal-mart the best Sony you can get is the S-series, which is a low end Sony model (though still better than the crappy Vizios and Emersons). At Best Buy and other electronic stores you can get V, W, Z series, etc. all the way up to the ultra high-end XBR's.

Definitely not saying that. I am pretty much saying Wal-mart has all the 'older' technology even though its not that old. Wal-mart is such a powerhouse that they can bully companies into doing what Wal-mart wants them to do and in return, some companies must lower cost of producing that product to get it at the price that wal-mart wants to sell it at or keep the price the same and make the smallest profit possible. Go look at the best flat panel at your local wal-mart and compare it to other major electronic suppliers (Refresh rate/contrast ratio and such). Look at all the specifications. One example, the new LED tv's that are coming out, you wont see them hit Wal-mart shelves for what i am guessing from 6 months to a year or more. :)Thank you for clarifying your points.

I can still get this at a Wal-Mart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10807294) though.

[vipergts2207]

Thank you for clarifying your points.

I can still get this at a Wal-Mart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10807294) though.

That's only $200 though. Wal-mart shoppers might actually buy that. They would be far less likely to pay almost $1500 for a 37" HDTV when they see other 37" TVs at $600. The vast majority of Wal-mart shoppers aren't exactly the most tech savvy people around.

[Eidorian]

That's only $200 though. Wal-mart shoppers might actually buy that. They would be far less likely to pay almost $1500 for a 37" HDTV when they see other 37" TVs at $600. The vast majority of Wal-mart shoppers aren't exactly the most tech savvy people around.I wouldn't make such a generalization.

[vipergts2207]

I wouldn't make such a generalization.

I would, trust me, I work there.

[Eidorian]

I would, trust me, I work there.Sadly my sample is mostly of engineers that shop at Wal-Mart.

Don't forget location, location, and location.

[vipergts2207]

Sadly my sample is mostly of engineers that shop at Wal-Mart.

Don't forget location, location, and location.

Buying televisions or groceries? And how can you possibly know they're engineers, ring on the pinky?

[Eidorian]

Buying televisions or groceries?Televisions surprisingly enough for the older ones. The fresh graduates are into food.

[vipergts2207]

Televisions surprisingly enough for the older ones. The fresh graduates are into food.

That doesn't explain how you know they're engineers. And electrical engineers are the only ones that are necessarily tech savvy. I'm studying EE and my friend is studying civil engineering. I'm tech savvy, he is not. Not even all electrical engineers need be tech savvy, say if they're working for a company like AEP, as compared to Sony or IBM. Now considering that there are civil, mechanical, chemical and a plethora of other non-tech related engineers, assuming they were all engineers at your wal-mart, it's still not likely that many are tech savvy, just because they are "engineers". And anyhow, I find it highly improbable that at least 50% of shoppers at your particular wal-mart are any form of engineer at all.

[Eidorian]

That doesn't explain how you know they're engineers. And electrical engineers are the only ones that are necessarily tech savvy. I'm studying EE and my friend is studying civil engineering. I'm tech savvy, he is not. Now considering that there are civil, mechanical, chemical and a plethora of other non-tech related engineers, assuming they were all engineers at your wal-mart, it's still not likely that many are tech savvy, just because they are "engineers".They're my friends, coworkers, relatives, and acquaintances? I wouldn't talk about strangers.

Aeronautical is at top follow by electrical and computer engineers.

[vipergts2207]

They're my friends, coworkers, relatives, and acquaintances? I wouldn't talk about strangers.

Aeronautical is at top follow by electrical and computer engineers.

In that case, your data is completely out of a real-world context and unbalanced. To get a proper survey you would need to take a sample of people coming through a few check-out lines, not just people you know that shop at Wal-mart. Apparently you're much more likely to know engineers that shop at Wal-mart due to your job and family.

[Eidorian]

In that case, your data is completely out of a real-world context and unbalanced. To get a proper survey you would need to take a sample of people coming through a few check-out lines, not just people you know that shop at Wal-mart. Apparently you're much more likely to know engineers that shop at Wal-mart due to your job and family.Best not do it here (http://www.city.west-lafayette.in.us/home.html).

[vipergts2207]

Best not do it here (http://www.city.west-lafayette.in.us/home.html).

I thought you told me to remember location, location, location? Most wal-marts aren't next to a university where there are a larger than normal number of engineering students. And I still doubt that more than 50% of the shoppers are engineers, let alone tech savvy ones. Being an engineer doesn't give you an insta-tech-knowledge pass.

[Eidorian]

I thought you told me to remember location, location, location? Most wal-marts aren't next to a university where there are a larger than normal number of engineering students. And I still doubt that more than 50% of the shoppers are engineers, let alone tech savvy ones. Being an engineer doesn't give you an insta-tech-knowledge pass.I'm glad you understand my points.

[vipergts2207]

I'm glad you understand my points.

Well I have to if I'm going to refute them. ;)

[Eidorian]

Well I have to if I'm going to refute them. ;)I didn't feel much of a need to tell you what you already knew. :D

[Sehnsucht]

I can still get an iPhone (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10807294) at a Walmart though.

True...I don't know if anyone else remembers back when Walmart first started selling the iPhone, the Apple elitists of MacRumors began an anti-Walmart tirade, making outrageous statements summed up as "my iPhone is no longer a status symbol because I can now go to Walmart and get an iPhone from a dumb redneck...thanks Apple!" :rolleyes:

He's not saying the same models are better between different stores. For example, at Wal-mart the best Sony you can get is the S-series, which is a low end Sony model (though still better than the subpar Vizios and Emersons). At Best Buy and other electronic stores you can get V, W, Z series, etc. all the way up to the ultra high-end XBR's.

Walmart employee here...I may work for Walmart, but I don't buy any major electronics there. If I need something like a 50-foot ethernet cable, sure, I'll pick one up after work, but for things like TVs and computers, there's Best Buy and the Apple store for that. ;)

Vizio is a joke. I've had to deal with SOOOO many customers who bought Vizios because they were cheap, and then had to return them a few months later after the screens went greenish or showed vertical colored lines. :rolleyes:

I overheard one redneck customer bragging to another about how amazing his new 42" Vizio was, and I remember him saying, "Well I was tryin' to decide between the Sony and the Vizio, and I found out that Vizio's made right here in Amer'cuh, so I figger'd I should go ahead and buy Amer'cun." The ignorance of that statement made my head spin. Vizio TVs are assembled in "Amer'cuh" using the cheapest-of-the-cheap Chinese components, whereas Sony TVs are made in Japan with much higher quality components and a more careful manufacturing process. Japanese electronics in general are usually always higher quality than anything "Amer'cun", unfortunately. ;)

[vipergts2207]

Walmart employee here...I may work for Walmart, but I don't buy any major electronics there. If I need something like a 50-foot ethernet cable, sure, I'll pick one up after work, but for things like TVs and computers, there's Best Buy and the Apple store for that. ;)


You and me both. I wouldn't buy any major electronics item there even with my 10% discount. Most of it's too low end. Besides, at best buy I got 12% off an XBR6 last summer with a reward zone coupon. Saved me over $150.