Winning the hearts and minds of Iraq

[Sayhey]

CBS to Air Alleged GI Abuse of Iraqis
By DAVID CRARY

NEW YORK (AP) - U.S. military police stacked Iraqi prisoners in a human pyramid, and attached wires to one detainee to convince him he might be electrocuted, according to photographs obtained by CBS News which led to criminal charges against six American soldiers.

CBS said the photos, to be shown Wednesday night on ``60 Minutes II,'' were taken late last year at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, where American soldiers were holding hundreds of prisoners captured during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

In March, the U.S. Army announced that six members of the 800th Military Police Brigade faced court martial for allegedly abusing about 20 prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The charges included dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person.

In addition to those criminal charges, the military has recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers who helped run the prison, including Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Brigade, a senior military official said Wednesday in Baghdad.

The investigation recommended administrative action against several of the commanders, which could include punishments up to relieving them of their commands, said the official, speaking on condition on anonymity.

When the abuse charges were first announced, U.S. military officials declined to provide details about the evidence. But on Wednesday, at a news briefing in Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs.

``That soldier said, 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with,''' said Kimmitt, who also confirmed that CBS had obtained the photographs.

One picture, according to CBS, shows an Iraqi prisoner who was told to stand on a box with his head covered and wires attached to his hands. CBS said the prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

In another photograph, CBS said, prisoners' bodies were stacked in a pyramid, and one man had a slur written in English on his skin.

The Army ordered an investigation into the actions of 17 soldiers from the 800th Brigade, which is based in Uniondale, N.Y. Ten were investigated for criminal actions, six of whom were charged in March.

The other seven were officers who faced an administrative investigation. Those officers have received copies of the probe and will now have the chance to rebut the claims, with a final decision expected within a month, the senior military official said.

In an interview with CBS correspondent Dan Rather, Kimmitt said the photographs were dismaying.

``We're appalled,'' Kimmitt said. ``These are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down.''

``If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers,'' Kimmitt said.

``60 Minutes II'' identified one of the implicated soldiers as Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, who described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison.

``We had no support, no training whatsoever, and I kept asking my chain of command for certain things, rules and regulations, and it just wasn't happening,'' Frederick said, according to a CBS News release.

``60 Minutes II'' also quoted from an e-mail which Frederick reportedly sent to his family in which he said of Iraqi prisoners: ``We've had a very high rate with our styles of getting them to break; they usually end up breaking within hours.''

Amnesty International, the London-based human rights group, said in March that many former detainees in Iraq claimed to have been tortured and ill-treated by coalition troops during interrogation.

Methods often reported, it said, included prolonged sleep deprivation, beatings, exposure to loud music and prolonged periods of being covered by a hood.

With fools like these who needs al Qaeda to organize against the US; we do it ourselves.

[zimv20]

how stupid does the american military have to be to use, and abuse within, the exact same prison that was such a horrorshow under saddam's rule?

symbolism and irony is completely lost here

[diamond geezer]

That BS website "insight" has a teaser on it.

The Insider Reports New TV Smear


Posted April 28, 2004

60 Minutes II will broadcast an attack on U.S. military detention centers tonight, the insider has learned, in a tabloid-style expose designed by antiwar propagandists to smear and titilate. See the nude pyramid of prisoners, indecent acts, aggravated assault and more - all perpetrated by sadistic Americans against kindly Muslim terrorists and ready for rebroadcast to the Arab world over Al-Jazeera and al-Arabia. Dis-gustin'.

Note that "Iraqi prisoners", no doubt defending their homeland against an aggressive invader, are renamed "muslim terrorists" in their article.

[radhak]

Iraqi Prison Photos mar US Image (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=2&u=/nm/20040430/ts_nm/iraq_pictures_dc)

I missed the actual broadcast. Did anybody see it? The description seems seriously depraved enough; and till recently i was thinking the military was in a muddle created by others. seems like they are out to dig their own hole deeper.



Saudi Arabia's English-language Arab News daily said:
The greatest loss the Americans face is to their reputation, not simply in the Middle East but in the world at large. U.S. military power will be seen for what it is, a behemoth with the response speed of a muscle-bound ox and the limited understanding of a mouse.

well said.

[numediaman]

Here's the address for the video of the BBC news report.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40101000/rm/_40101165_prisoners13_adams_vi.ram

[toontra]

According to today's lunchtime BBC news, this story is only covered by 1 newspaper US today (in Baltamore). I just checked a random few online and sure enough didn't see any mention.

What the hell!! This is probably the most explosive single news event of the last year comming from Iraq, and will have untold consequences for the reconstruction.

So much for the liberal media!!!

[Sayhey]

Be prepared for any Arab, particularly Iraqi, response to these outrages to be laid at the feet of Dan Rather and 60 Minutes. The Rush/Hannity line of questioning the patriotism of the messenger is as inevitable as day follows night.

[numediaman]

According to today's lunchtime BBC news, this story is only covered by 1 newspaper US today (in Baltimore). I just checked a random few online and sure enough didn't see any mention.

What the hell!! This is probably the most explosive single news event of the last year comming from Iraq, and will have untold consequences for the reconstruction.

So much for the liberal media!!!

You are absolutely right. In order to get more news about a story that was first covered by CBS News, I have had to read online newspapers from overseas.

But wait, next we hear that the State Department has put out a report that terrorism is down! Bush has saved the world. Of course, the report does not include attacks in Iraq -- I guess they didn't want to include US actions.


US military in torture scandal

Use of private contractors in Iraqi jail interrogations highlighted by inquiry into abuse of prisoners

Julian Borger in Washington
Friday April 30, 2004
The Guardian

Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation.

The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees.

According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon.

US military investigators discovered the photographs, which include images of a hooded prisoner with wires fixed to his body, and nude inmates piled in a human pyramid.

The pictures, which were obtained by an American TV network, also show a dog attacking a prisoner and other inmates being forced to simulate sex with each other. It is thought the abuses took place in November and December last year.

The pictures from Abu Ghraib prison have shocked the US army.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: "If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html

[Sayhey]

I saw a story on this on my local CBS affiliate's Eleven O'Clock broadcast last night. Not all US media is ignoring the story. To be fair, CBS sat on the story for two weeks out of concern for US and allied citizens being held hostage by Iraqi militia. I'm sure that is part of the reason for the tepid response to this news and I wouldn't want to be one of those hostages or their relatives for anything in the world this morning. All of that doesn't mean that this could be held back indefinitely.

[mactastic]

You are absolutely right. In order to get more news about a story that was first covered by CBS News, I have had to read online newspapers from overseas.

Indeed a quick perusal of the sites SlyHunter uses for sources (ie Newsmax, Boortz, Drudge etc.) show nary a mention of this story. At least there is tepid mention of this story in the mainstream media. The conservative media wants it to go away, so they won't talk about it.

[radhak]

You are absolutely right. In order to get more news about a story that was first covered by CBS News, I have had to read online newspapers from overseas.


I don't know about that. I found a whole list on http://www.google.com/news

I found this interesting, additional post on USA Today : Accused Soldier tells of questions (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-30-pow-scandal_x.htm). Reactions from the family members of the people accused / identified in the pictures...

[takao]

i just saw those pictures in german tv....

truly disgusting how those prisoners got treated but i havn't found any pictures online...

i guess somebody should have read this :
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

[SlyHunter]

I saw a story on this on my local CBS affiliate's Eleven O'Clock broadcast last night. Not all US media is ignoring the story. To be fair, CBS sat on the story for two weeks out of concern for US and allied citizens being held hostage by Iraqi militia. I'm sure that is part of the reason for the tepid response to this news and I wouldn't want to be one of those hostages or their relatives for anything in the world this morning. All of that doesn't mean that this could be held back indefinitely.
Actually Neal Boortz reports

Those pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners? You do know that it was other American soldiers who took those pictures and turned them over to authorities, don't you? The media will concentrate, though, on the bad apples, not the good ones.

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
and Drudge Report has their story here http://drudgereport.com/flash2.htm
And it is kind of pointless to repeat on every news source one single news story when its already being covered so throughly. But they apparently did anyhow.

They came to light only when one of the men involved gave a photo to a soldier from another unit, who was so shocked he took it to his commanders.

Television chiefs said they obtained 12 pictures, but said the army had confiscated 'many, many more'. One shows naked Iraqi prisoners stacked in a human pyramid, with a slur written in English on the skin of one.

They led to criminal charges against six military policemen who are being court martialled for allegedly abusing about 20 Iraqis.

In addition the military has recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers who helped run the prison, including Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, the commander of the 800 Military Police Brigade, who has been suspended from duty.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said last night in Baghdad that the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs.

'That soldier said, "There are some things going on here that I can't live with".'

Kimmitt said he was 'appalled' at the photographs. 'These are our fellow soldiers, these are the people we work with every day, they represent us, they wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down.

'If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers,' he told CBS.


http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1212124.jpg

Worldnet Daily didn't have their own story they posted a link directly to another papers story instead.
OPERATION: IRAQI FREEDOM
Marines prepare Fallujah pullback
Iraqi forces will head into city to help end standoff
--Fox News
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.guard29apr29,0,6084344.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[skunk]

i just saw those pictures in german tv....

truly disgusting how those prisoners got treated but i havn't found any pictures online...


Well it's all over the papers in every other country.

[Backtothemac]

Ok, first, it is just wrong what these soldiers did. They did not kill them, mame them, they humilliated them, and yes, it is wrong, but how exactly do we know these are Iraqi's?

I thought people in this country were innocent until proven guilty?

This is not the US military, but yet the actions of a few stupid people.

[SlyHunter]

Indeed a quick perusal of the sites SlyHunter uses for sources (ie Newsmax, Boortz, Drudge etc.) show nary a mention of this story. At least there is tepid mention of this story in the mainstream media. The conservative media wants it to go away, so they won't talk about it.
What I havn't heard on the liberal mass media are stories like

A Massacre in Kosovo
ON APRIL 17, as reported in THE WEEKLY STANDARD, two American women and an American man were slain in Kosovo, and eleven people were injured when they came under armed attack by a Palestinian from Jordan. The killer was a member of the same body in which they served: the United Nations police force in the territory.

The male American, who died of his wounds, was Gary Weston, of Vienna, Illinois. The Palestinian, Sergeant Major Ahmed Mustafa Ibrahim Ali, was killed when members of the contingent in which the Americans were traveling returned fire.

In the days since the first reports of the crime were received, more details have emerged, which make what was already a scandal for the United Nations in Kosovo even more alarming. First and most disturbing is that the dead assailant, Ali, is being investigated for connections with Hamas, the Palestinian terror organization. Second is that the same Ali had visited the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, home of the Wahhabi Islamic sect that produced al Qaeda, only a month before he was sent to Kosovo in March.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/024rjfgr.asp

[SlyHunter]

Ok, first, it is just wrong what these soldiers did. They did not kill them, mame them, they humilliated them, and yes, it is wrong, but how exactly do we know these are Iraqi's?

I thought people in this country were innocent until proven guilty?

This is not the US military, but yet the actions of a few stupid people.
They are guilty.
The ones who took the pictures gave them to people who gave them to people who are now prosecuting them. Sit in your room with a paper bag over your head then think what it would be like if your arms were tied and you couldn't remove that bag. That is standard operating procedure for handling prisoners and I doubt I would live thru just that with my sanity intact and that is legal. Add to it what they did and well they deserve much worse than they are going to get. They're just going to go to jail for a couple of decades.

[mactastic]

Actually Neal Boortz reports

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
and Drudge Report has their story here http://drudgereport.com/flash2.htm
And it is kind of pointless to repeat on every news source one single news story when its already being covered so throughly. But they apparently did anyhow.

http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1212124.jpg

Worldnet Daily didn't have their own story they posted a link directly to another papers story instead.


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.guard29apr29,0,6084344.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Well it wasn't there yesterday when I looked. Guess even they can't ignore it anymore.

[Danrose1977]

This is not the US military, but yet the actions of a few stupid people.

Despite the actions being by only a small group, they do represent the US military and all coalition forces. This is the kind of thing that can only increase resistance and anger, thus endangering all coalition forces. If it is found that troops from the UK have been involved in such activities I will be deeply ashamed. I'm not a nationalist, but the actions of a countries soldiers reflect on the country, as they are ambasadors for the nation they represent.

[SlyHunter]

Despite the actions being by only a small group, they do represent the US military and all coalition forces. This is the kind of thing that can only increase resistance and anger, thus endangering all coalition forces. If it is found that troops from the UK have been involved in such activities I will be deeply ashamed. I'm not a nationalist, but the actions of a countries soldiers reflect on the country, as they are ambasadors for the nation they represent.
Are you going to say that when heads start to roll in this oil for food scandal? Or are you going to say we can't condemn the entire UN for the crimes of a few individuals?

[mactastic]

Are you going to say that when heads start to roll in this oil for food scandal? Or are you going to say we can't condemn the entire UN for the crimes of a few individuals?


You seem to think the entire Palestinian populace is complicit in the suicide bombings of a few individuals...

[SlyHunter]

You seem to think the entire Palestinian populace is complicit in the suicide bombings of a few individuals...
I think that they are not policing their own. That they are not going out and arresting or prosecuting the terrorists in their society. For that they are guilty. They are thus enablers.

[mactastic]

I think that they are not policing their own. That they are not going out and arresting or prosecuting the terrorists in their society. For that they are guilty. They are thus enablers.

I guarantee you this isn't the only incident of prisoner abuse. Probably most don't get reported, arrested, or prosecuted. By your logic the US citizenry are complicit in the Iraqi prisoner abuse.

[zimv20]

This is not the US military, but yet the actions of a few stupid people.
true (i hope so, anyway), but the damage to the US' image is devastating. w/ no WMD turned up, that leaves freeing iraqis of the abuses of saddam as the sole legitimate reason for the invasion. now the world is being told the US is just as bad, if not worse, than saddam.

think back to the weeks after 9/11 and how the world felt about the US. it's a stunning turnaround.

[toontra]

Let's not forget the irony of this in reference to the larger picture.

War was justified by the US on 3 grounds:

1) WMD

2) Ties with Al Qaida

3) Humanitarian

The first two have been debunked.

If the occupying forces are seen to be acting no better than Sadam, bang goes the third, and there will have been no point whatsoever in the loss of countless thousands of lives.

It will then look to an increasingly skeptical world that the real reason was in fact a fourth one - i.e. geopolitical ambition by the US.

[Backtothemac]

Despite the actions being by only a small group, they do represent the US military and all coalition forces. This is the kind of thing that can only increase resistance and anger, thus endangering all coalition forces. If it is found that troops from the UK have been involved in such activities I will be deeply ashamed. I'm not a nationalist, but the actions of a countries soldiers reflect on the country, as they are ambasadors for the nation they represent.

So when the terrorists flew the planes into the World Trade Center, they represented the entire religion of Islam, and all of the Arab world? No, that is the point.

Sly, they are guilty according to who? You, and the Press? I am sure they are. Have you ever been deployed in a forward combat position? Have you ever had to fight for your life? Have you? No? Then let the courts decide if they are guilty, and the punishment that they deserve for humiliating suspected Iraqi's. They did not torture them, they humiliated them.

[toontra]

So when the terrorists flew the planes into the World Trade Center, they represented the entire religion of Islam, and all of the Arab world? No, that is the point.

That's not a credible analogy, B2TM.

The terrorists involved in 9/11 weren't a "liberating" force occupying another country. You should also try and refrain from introducing 9/11 as a subliminal justification for any subsequent US action into your arguments. World sympathy, as zimv20 said, was fully behind the US then, but their actions since mean that sympathy is already draining away fast, and will continue to do so if people like you bring it up like a mantra whenever the US is caught in a wrongdoing.

[radhak]

Are you going to say that when heads start to roll in this oil for food scandal? Or are you going to say we can't condemn the entire UN for the crimes of a few individuals?
Applies always.
Taking responsibility means more than punishing. You need to punish those individuals who commit the crime (oil-for-food, prisoner-abuse, whatever), but the bigger organization needs to 'take responsibility' by self-evaluation, and then taking steps to ensure the said crime does not repeat.

'Mea Culpa' is not just a phrase. It is also an expression of wishing to reform.
Of course, it also means that whatever fall out occurs later (even way later) is at the doorstep of the organization; like, alienating whatever portion of the Arab world is still with the US. All the more important that the army deals with this swiftly and publicly, rightaway.

BTW, Sly, you always come up with the oil-for-food issue whenever you want a counter argument, whatever the thread. Maybe you should start a separate thread for that and get it out of your system. ;)

[SlyHunter]

Originally Posted by SlyHunter
I think that they are not policing their own. That they are not going out and arresting or prosecuting the terrorists in their society. For that they are guilty. They are thus enablers.

I guarantee you this isn't the only incident of prisoner abuse. Probably most don't get reported, arrested, or prosecuted. By your logic the US citizenry are complicit in the Iraqi prisoner abuse.
We prosecute our criminals. We put them in jail. We execute them. We don't have parades championing their tactics.

[Danrose1977]

So when the terrorists flew the planes into the World Trade Center, they represented the entire religion of Islam

That is a very different situation. Although it does reflect badly on Islam they were part of a group denounced by Islamic leaders as having no part in their faith and being beyond their control. The Coalition forces can not claim that their soldiers are not under their control or part of their organisation.

I was in Egypt during the second gulf war and was pleasently surprised by the moderate attitudes, and how well informed the Egyptian people were about demonstrations against war in the UK. Despite my oposition to war and occupation in Iraq it still upsets me that these actions occur and are carried out in my name.

It is understandable that soldiers in stressful situations, who have seen their freinds killed and wounded will be angry. Seeking revenge is a natural part of being human, and that is where we need to concider the comanding officers to be negligent for not preventing or adiquatly reprimanding and containing the situation.

I seem to have a lot to say on this, but it can be summed up with:

I have never been in a war situation and can't say that I wouldn't freak out and react in the same way as these soldiers have therefore I would not presume to judge them, but it makes me no less upset that this has occured.

PS: forgive any spelling errors, dead tired

[skunk]

We prosecute our criminals. We put them in jail. We execute them. We don't have parades championing their tactics.
Is that right? Why is Bush still free? Why is he parading the tactics of the occupation forces?

[numediaman]

Amnesty International has released a press release concerning the issue at hand:

Iraq: Torture not isolated -- independent investigations vital
There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq -- with double standards and double speak on human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"The latest evidence of torture and ill-treatment emerging from Abu Ghraib prison will exacerbate an already fragile situation. The prison was notorious under Saddam Hussein -- it should not be allowed to become so again. Iraq has lived under the shadow of torture for far too long. The Coalition leadership must send a clear signal that torture will not be tolerated under any circumstances and that the Iraqi people can now live free of such brutal and degrading practices," Amnesty International said.

"There must be a fully independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture. Nothing less will suffice. If Iraq is to have a sustainable and peaceful future, human rights must be a central component of the way forward. The message must be sent loud and clear that those who abuse human rights will be held accountable.

"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year. Detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and detention. Many have told Amnesty International that they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated by the authorities.

Amnesty International is calling for investigations into alleged abuses by Coalition Forces to be conducted by a body that is competent, impartial and independent, and seen to be so, and that any findings of such investigations be made public. In addition reparation, including compensation, must be paid to the victims or to their families.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140172004


EDIT: If you want a feeling about how this is playing out in the Arab world, check out this link. You don't need to know how to read Arabic to get a sense of the story.
http://www.aljazeera.net/news/america/2004/4/4-30-8.htm

[Danrose1977]

There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq -- with double standards and double speak on human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"The latest evidence of torture and ill-treatment emerging from Abu Ghraib prison will exacerbate an already fragile situation.

My point exactly.... I was going to say more, but I've had too much wine and its time to listen to the pixies :cool: .... sorry to be so flipant on such a serious discussion.

[SlyHunter]

Many have told Amnesty International that they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation.

I'm sure they were all telling the truth too.

Amnesty International is extremely biased constantly talking about the US's so called abusses in Human rights while soft pedaling on others. As prime examples they are always harping on Israels attempts to defend themselves from suicide bombers while having almost nothing to say to the Palestinians who refuse to prosecute those in their own country who says things like "there shall be no peace as long as a single Jew remains alive."

[mactastic]

I'm sure they were all telling the truth too.

Amnesty International is extremely biased constantly talking about the US's so called abusses in Human rights while soft pedaling on others. As prime examples they are always harping on Israels attempts to defend themselves from suicide bombers while having almost nothing to say to the Palestinians who refuse to prosecute those in their own country who says things like "there shall be no peace as long as a single Jew remains alive."

Sly, if you'd like I can point you to some reports from AI where they are highly critical of the Palestinian leadership for their actions. But you'd probably not believe it anyway, kinda like you didn't believe the GOP had ever filibustered a Democratic judicial nominee...

[skunk]

I've started another thread: the UK has been at it too. Pictures of British "soldiers" pissing on Iraqi prisoners. :( :(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

[takao]

I'm sure they were all telling the truth too.

Amnesty International is extremely biased constantly talking about the US's so called abusses in Human rights while soft pedaling on others. As prime examples they are always harping on Israels attempts to defend themselves from suicide bombers while having almost nothing to say to the Palestinians who refuse to prosecute those in their own country who says things like "there shall be no peace as long as a single Jew remains alive."

1. where those attacks from palestinians by a regular army ...no...those are terrorists.. to whom should they talk about it ?
2. ai talked about china,turkey, _iraq_,north korea and even austria etc. in the past so how biased is that ?
3. ai is a organisation which shows when a country goes to far...some countries then try to change the things ... and others just keep going ...

the critic from ai is completly justified ...because i really doubt that this were isolated single accidents...
sure nearly all of soldiers behave like they should and are doing their best like a soldier should... but you never know ... just because a soldier is from your own country doesn't mean he can't be a cruel,sadistic,POW torturing war criminal...
and if i look at those pictures i completly agree with ai...

[zimv20]

its time to listen to the pixies :cool:
OT: i'm happy to report that my tix for a november pixies show in chicago arrived today

[SlyHunter]

Sly, if you'd like I can point you to some reports from AI where they are highly critical of the Palestinian leadership for their actions. But you'd probably not believe it anyway, kinda like you didn't believe the GOP had ever filibustered a Democratic judicial nominee...

Amnesty International (AI) represents itself as a human rights watchdog organization that likes to style itself "the world's largest private human rights organization." Up to a point, it is. It has done valuable work in many countries on behalf of human rights and has shown light upon abuses of those rights in many a dark corner of the world. But Amnesty International has never restricted itself to protection of civil rights. It has long been a highly politicized organization that has ties with and identifies with the political agenda of the left. In particular, it has vehement anti-American and anti-Israel political biases. This leftist orientation has resulted in AI acting less and less as a human rights watchdog, and more and more as an anti-American and anti-Israel pit bull.

Unfortunately, while recently discovering that Palestinian terrorism constitutes the abuse of human rights of its victims, Amnesty has remained reticent about the fact that it is the PLO itself and not simply the Hamas, Jihad and similar Islamist groups, that are responsible for terrorist atrocities. In recent years the bulk of Palestinian terror, including many suicide bombings, were perpetrated by members of the Fat’h, Al-Aqsa ‘Martyrs,’ and the Tanzim, all PLO factions under the direct personal command and control of Arafat himself. Amnesty pretends that some amorphous unnamed organizations are conducting Palestinian terror, not the PLO. While AI is willing to denounce PLO violations of the rights of Arabs, it is all but silent about PLO terrorism and atrocities committed against Jews. While acknowledging that Palestinian terrorists (but not the PLO) have targeted Israeli children, Amnesty maintains “balance” by insisting that Israel also intentionally targets children, a bit like arguing in the same breath that Nazi German and the Allies in 1944 both killed people. AI has never quite come out with a clear defense of the right of Israel to protect the human right of its children not to be blown to bits by the PLO.

AI suffers from an acute case of the Moynihan Syndrome. According to Moynihan’s law, the amount of violations of human rights in a country is always an INVERSE function of the amount of complaints about human rights violations heard from there. The greater the number of complaints being aired, the better protected are human rights in that country. The reason is obvious. Those countries in which human rights are the most severely violated are also those where no freedom of speech nor press is permitted. This explains the AI reticence and almost total absence of denunciation of human rights abuses in places like North Korea and Cambodia. It also explains why AI apparently had no knowledge of the killing fields in southern Iraq until US and British troops uncovered them in the recent war.

AI has an academic notion of ethical pureness, which it insists must be applied in the dirty business of war and in the battle against terror. While paying mere lip service to why terror is not nice, AI refuses to draw the obvious conclusion that those battling against terror must use means that sometimes have unpleasant side affects. If those fighting terror never use violence, terror wins. If those fighting terror must never use impure methods that may cause collateral damages, this is the same as saying they give up any struggle against terrorism altogether.

AI routinely goes beyond issuing complaints about violations of human rights to open endorsements of the political aims of anti-American, anti-Israel, Far Left and Third World totalitarian political organizations.



In the name of “protecting human rights,” AI regularly and repeatedly endorses the political goals of the PLO, including its “right” to its own state, and has condemned Israeli “occupation” of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since when is taking one side in a territorial dispute a form of defending human rights? Would AI have supported Hitler’s demands that the Polish, Czechoslovakian and French “occupations” of what he regarded as “German lands” - all in the name of human rights? AI has also discovered that Palestinians have a “right”, not only to their own state in the West Bank and Gaza but also to migrate to and reclaim any property inside Israel they may wish to claim. Of the countless hundreds of millions of people who became refugees after World War II, the only ones with such an AI-recognized “right” are the Palestinians.

AI has never had anything to say about the rights of Jews who were evicted from Moslem countries to reclaim their property, and their property was worth perhaps a hundred times more than anything left behind by any emigrating “Palestinians”. It is only a question of time before AI discovers that Tories evicted from the US by patriots in the 1770s also have the right of return.

5] AI’s own wesite links to a large number of pro-terrorist, anti-Jewish, pro-violence, extremist organizations. The Anti-Defamation League has repeatedly denounced AI for its anti-Jewish bias (http://www.adl.org/Israel/jenin/), although has praised AI efforts on behalf of the imprisoned Iranian Jews who were “convicted” in an Iranian show trial. AI has participated in anti-Israel political rallies and collaborated with Arab and other anti-Jewish propagandists.

much more info at http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8141
Before you reply saying frontpage mag is biased note that below they are quoting the Boston Globe.

Even leftists have denounced AI’s distortions of what took place in Jenin. While never quite denouncing the suicide bombers themselves in terms that ring true, AI denounces Israel’s conduct of the reprisal raids against the terrorists. The Boston Globe’s Charles Radin Jerusalem bureau chief, and Globe reporter Dan Ephron outted Ai in their April 29, 2002 article entitled "Claims of massacre go unsupported by Palestinian fighters," where they show that that Amnesty International’s charges against Israel were contradicted by Palestinian witnesses themselves. The group had falsely said that "Israel failed to provide safe passage from the camp to noncombatants." Over and over AI has accepted at face value and repeated unsubstantiated accusations by Arabs against Israel for alleged mistreatment.

[SlyHunter]

Evelyn Gordon points out in the Jerusalem Post (June 3, 2002) that human-rights group Amnesty International's 2002 annual report has been subtly altered from prior years, changes that make Israel look bad. Here is a link to that article: http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1022691076603

Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org) has been a frequent critic of Israel, in the forefront of the chorus accusing Israel of a massacre in Jenin which did not occur. John Podhoretz' analysis of their Jenin debacle appeared in the New York Post: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/46217.htm

At the same time, the organization has been silent about numerous examples of Palestinian human rights violations or failures by the UN to carry out its obligations in the refugee camps. While they are generally well regarded on the world scene, Amnesty International now has a documented record of bias against Israel.

Some other examples:

Jonathan Tobin tells of a rally held in Washington, D.C.in Sept. 2000 on behalf of the "Palestinian Right of Return", an anti-Israel propaganda show partly sponsored by Amnesty International:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/tobin092600.asp

This article describes questions to the Secretary General of Amnesty International, Mr. Pierre Sane, during a visit to Israel and the territories in April 2001. Mr. Sane reveals a singular lack of interest in Jewish victims of terror and a devotion to the Arab "right of return":
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Apr-06-01.htm#sane


http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/news/5june2002.asp

More biased AI information http://intellectualconservative.com/article2395.html

[skunk]

http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/news/5june2002.asp

More biased AI information http://intellectualconservative.com/article2395.html
Your urls leave me cold.

[numediaman]

Sly, at least you are entertaining. But as an example of the American education system . . . :eek:

[SlyHunter]

Your urls leave me cold.
No more biased than your url's to Amnesty international, but more believable.

[skunk]

No more biased than your url's to Amnesty international, but more believable.
Mine???

[takao]

No more biased than your url's to Amnesty international, but more believable.

http://www.amnesty.ch/f/eminf/200204_itof/index.html

in french but it also available in german...

"Amnesty International condemns the attacks of armed Palestinian groups on the Israeli civilian population and recognizes the right of Israel to seize necessary and appropriate measures in order to ensure security to its citizen/inside and its borders from these attacks. ..."

but i think that doesn't count for you .... and please stop those "exterminate them all" talking