Turkish police nab 14 over 'honour killing'

[wdlove]

ISTANBUL - Turkey was in emotional turmoil on Wednesday amid reports that police had arrested a man who strangled his 14-year-old daughter to maintain family 'honour' after she was abducted and repeatedly raped by a stranger.

Thirteen relatives who ordered the father to carry out the murder were also arrested.

Most newspapers ran front-page stories on the killing, which provoked outrage in Turkey, where parliament passed a law last year to toughen penalties for so-called honour killings.

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,248229,00.html

[baby duck monge]

wow. that is extremely rough. i could understand if she had gone out and had some sort of relationship with a man (not that it would be ok, just more understandable), but killing her for being raped? :eek:

it's a shame that this sort of idea is so ingrained in various cultures around the word. hopefully someday we will move beyond this and learn to only punish those who perpetrate crimes. :(

[mactastic]

Cheese is rice...... Is there any level of barbarism that some *$^#(%&#)*^$* @**#&)% won't stoop to? People sicken me sometimes. :mad:

And something tells me the 'stranger' part is a crock too. I bet she knew who raped her.

[Freakk123]

That's ridiculous. How could anyone be so savage, to kill someone after they had been so violated both emotionally and physically? Thats terrible. Just awful.

[MongoTheGeek]

Its the dehumanization of the woman. She was merely property which had been "broken"

Maybe the rest of the muslim world should be next. Perhaps an actual crusade might make the world a better place.

Perhaps that is the type of over-reacting that caused a father to kill his daughter.

[mactastic]

Maybe the rest of the muslim world should be next. Perhaps an actual crusade might make the world a better place.

Perhaps that is the type of over-reacting that caused a father to kill his daughter.

Yeah 'cuz all muzlims look alike to me... :rolleyes:

Did you judge all Christians by the acts of that woman who said God told her to kill her kids my smashing their heads in with a rock? Did you advocate a jihad against the Christian faith over it?

I didn't think so.

[wdlove]

It is a very sad situation when someone would kill their own child. It seems that there was a lot of family pressure on the father. So I agree that the other 13 should also be punished. They need to change the opinions of the younger generation.

[MrMacMan]

Wow thats just stupid.


I mean she was raped first... and then you kill her?!?!

Its not her fault at all!


What is this place that this is happening on?

Earth> :mad:

[Chappers]

Maybe the rest of the muslim world should be next. Perhaps an actual crusade might make the world a better place.



I thought we were already doing that.
Also there does seem to be an increase in the demonizing of the Muslim world these days. Maybe its to take the pressure off negative publicity involving the legality of war, the locking up of people without charge, body bags, Geneva convention abuses by Allied soldiers.

[JesseJames]

I will shirk politeness.
I believe that a lot of cultures have cultural defects and this is a prime example of it. I'm probably flame-baiting myself but I'm speaking my mind.
It's just freaking madness.
Of all the backwards traditions.
:rolleyes:

[Mr. Anderson]

The one question I have with all this craziness is who's honor are they talking about? It shames the family that the girl was raped? :confused:

Nothing like a supporting family that cares....what if it was one of the sons who was doing the deed instead of the girl that was the victim?

That's just not right.....

D :(

[Makosuke]

Its the dehumanization of the woman. She was merely property which had been "broken"

Maybe the rest of the muslim world should be next. Perhaps an actual crusade might make the world a better place.

Perhaps that is the type of over-reacting that caused a father to kill his daughter.I think mactastic and others were missing the point on this comment; Mongo was commenting that the same sort of illogical overreaction that causes a father to strangle his daughter can cause people to demonize the entire Muslim world on account of a handful of nuts or psychos.

And Mongo's exactly right about what causes disturbing things like this to happen; in so many cultures (including European until relatively recently), women have been looked at as little more than property. You marry them into a family for political reasons, you get paid a dowry for taking them off the hands of someone else, you mutilate them to increase your social standing (foot binding = "I'm rich enough that my women don't need to work."), you get rid of them when they're broken or unnecessary (killing girl babies in China if you only get to have one kid). I don't think any culture in human history has been immune to this sort of thing, and the overall improvement in the standing of women may be the single biggest change in human civilization during the past 2000 years.

Glad to see the Turkish government taking a strong stand on this, though. How does your family honor look when they're all in jail?

[Chappers]

But why bring up the Muslim thing and in effect demonize them? Do we find it acceptable to talk about Jihads - no we don't (and rightly so). Talk of crusades isn't very different.

[Sparky's]

From our standpoint "honor killings" are barbaric, but realize that people who are brought up in certain societies that include such practices are abundant. Take for example the Samurai of Japan who commit hari-kari for "Honors' sake". Though the practice is (supposedly) outlawed it may still occur in some areas.

And there are others:
One note about the band: actor Russell Crowe is one of their singer/songwriter/guitarists. They have the KAPS logo posted front and center on their own website www.gruntland.com as they urge visitors to "HELP END THE BARBARIC SLAUGHTER OF DOGS FOR FOOD IN KOREA". The more help the better and the closer we'll come to changing the nature of Korea's "barbaric" practices.
http://www.koreananimals.org/FOTOFOG.htm

If a father from a West African country living in the UK inscribes tribal scars on his son's face, is this criminal mutilation or a perfectly justifiable cultural practice? If a Muslim woman in Germany is not permitted to wear a head-scarf, is she being subjected to cultural imperialism?
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit06252001/womensociety.asp

Obviously the "search list" could go on and on.

Myself, brought up in a "western" society, do find many of these cultural differences appalling, and trying to "educate" these other societies may or may not be to their benefit. I feel it's up to the culture itself to try and change if they so feel the need. The Turkish government is trying as are other nations, and maybe the concept of "Human Right" just may spread. :rolleyes:

PS to bad you didn't quote the entire article, it has now passed into "archive" and is only available to subscribers.

[avus]

Myself, brought up in a "western" society, do find many of these cultural differences appalling, and trying to "educate" these other societies may or may not be to their benefit. I feel it's up to the culture itself to try and change if they so feel the need.

Are you ignorant about what actually went on inside the prison in Iraq by American and British guards? Or worse, you may be aware yet you blindly believe that they are isolated cases and they don't represent any of your culture. Well, people around the world think that the horrendous incidents represent one typical "Western" value - Double standard.

[Sparky's]

Are you ignorant about what actually went on inside the prison in Iraq by American and British guards? Or worse, you may be aware yet you blindly believe that they are isolated cases and they don't represent any of your culture. Well, people around the world think that the horrendous incidents represent one typical "Western" value - Double standard.

I am no more "ignorant" than you for not seeing what I was saying. Of course I'm aware of our own atrocities. I was drafted in 1969, and thank you very much lived through the Viet Nam era, and came out rather unscathed. You want to talk about how people go off the deep end? this forum isn't big enough to contain the list of issues still pending concerning "Western" atrocities. I in no way said we were "perfect" or clean of guilt ourselves. My post merely points out that what I believe to be a right moral upbringing does not teach us to commit these kinds of actions, where as the Islamic and other types of cultural beliefs teach that these actions are founded and right. This is what I disagree with. I will be the first to admit that we are just as guilty of heinous crimes against humanity as anyone. Jeffery Domer (sp) comes to mind, or the FBI raid in Waco, or the 2 guys who shot North Hollywood up with no concern for human life. As I said I could go on for a long time. I just hope you see what I really meant.

[avus]

My post merely points out that what I believe to be a right moral upbringing does not teach us to commit these kinds of actions, where as the Islamic and other types of cultural beliefs teach that these actions are founded and right.

I say, and many in the world would agree, that there is a huge discrepancy between what America preaches to the world and what America actually does. The people in the world don't care about what kind of upbringings the guards had at home. They only see the American guards, wearing the uniforms you and I paid for, conducting the most horrific and inhumane acts while smiling to the camera. They only see the results and draw a conclusion that Americans are double-faced liars. I can't blame them. Remember, this horrific war crime in Iraq prisons was systematic, from the guards to the officers to the intelligence specialists, the acts were planned, executed, and encouraged. They definitely felt that they were justified to act as they please to those people, because they felt they were superior. Think about that.

[panphage]

I say, and many in the world would agree, that there is a huge discrepancy between what America preaches to the world and what America actually does. The people in the world don't care about what kind of upbringings the guards had at home. They only see the American guards, wearing the uniforms you and I paid for, conducting the most horrific and inhumane acts while smiling to the camera. They only see the results and draw a conclusion that Americans are double-faced liars. I can't blame them. Remember, this horrific war crime in Iraq prisons was systematic, from the guards to the officers to the intelligence specialists, the acts were planned, executed, and encouraged. They definitely felt that they were justified to act as they please to those people, because they felt they were superior. Think about that.

The military operates by taking young people and convincing them that their opponents are less than human. Otherwise war would not be possible. Without demonizing the opponent, it is difficult to convince people to kill them. So how do you convince these kids that an enemy suddenly becomes human and deserves to be treated with respect just because you captured them?

[Chappers]

The military operates by taking young people and convincing them that their opponents are less than human. Otherwise war would not be possible. Without demonizing the opponent, it is difficult to convince people to kill them. So how do you convince these kids that an enemy suddenly becomes human and deserves to be treated with respect just because you captured them?

Fair point but Bush should at least apologize (Is that the correct foreign English spelling?).

[MongoTheGeek]

Fair point but Bush should at least apologize (Is that the correct foreign English spelling?).

Apologize for what? That there are a dozen abusive guards instead of hundreds? That the wires attached to the genitals were no longer live? That only 25 people died in custody instead of hundreds?

He said what needed to be said. That what the people did was wrong, that they would be punished and things like that are not what we do.

When did people start apologizing for things they didn't do or cause or happened against their express wishes and intents?

[mactastic]

When did people start apologizing for things they didn't do or cause or happened against their express wishes and intents?

When they are in a position of authority. With authority comes what? I know you know the answer to this.... 14 letters, starts with an 'R'.

Why did Bill Clinton issue an apology to the interned Japanese? He didn't lock them up.

Why do editors who's reporters falsify stories apologize and even resign when they weren't the ones commiting the offense?

Why do parents apologize for the actions of their children?

It all comes back to that 'R' word.... did you guess it yet?

[Mantat]

Apologize for what? That there are a dozen abusive guards instead of hundreds? That the wires attached to the genitals were no longer live? That only 25 people died in custody instead of hundreds?

He said what needed to be said. That what the people did was wrong, that they would be punished and things like that are not what we do.

When did people start apologizing for things they didn't do or cause or happened against their express wishes and intents?

Actualy, the word mactastic is looking for doesnt start with R, it starts with a A, like in ACCOUNTABILITY. If I do a big mistake at job, my boss will be accountable for my doing. Of course she will kick my ass, still, she will have to answer to her boss, who will have to apologize up the chain of command.

[mactastic]

Well, I was looking for RESPONSIBILITY, but accountability works too.

[Chappers]

Apologize for what? That there are a dozen abusive guards instead of hundreds? That the wires attached to the genitals were no longer live? That only 25 people died in custody instead of hundreds?

He said what needed to be said. That what the people did was wrong, that they would be punished and things like that are not what we do.

When did people start apologizing for things they didn't do or cause or happened against their express wishes and intents?

I'm sure the person in question will be pleased to know that the wires connected to his genitals were no longer live. And ONLY 25 people died - well thats ok then.

Sadly more allied soldiers will die because of all this.

My first comment in this thread was about demonizing a muslim nation (that ironically is pro western) and now because of the actions of a few soldiers its a western country that is being demonized. Not very nice feeling is it?

[pyroteknik]

Maybe the rest of the muslim world should be next. Perhaps an actual crusade might make the world a better place.

ya... because the super great crusades are only one of the biggest atrocities ever committed in the history of the world.

As a syrian christian, I can gladly say that this kind of honor killing crap doesnt go on anywhere in syria. I firmly believe that ANY government that makes OR made its laws based solely on religion should be reprimanded.

Like it or not, many islamic clerics and sheikhs have little or no respect for women. when this young girl was raped, her family saw it as someone raping them, and they needed to "destroy the bridge allowing their family to be raped" As strange as it sounds, thats how it is.

I know im probably going to get emails from devout muslims defending their leaders but look... ive read the quran, bible and torah; ive studied 4 major religions.. and lets not forget that I grew up in not only the same country as these people, but in the same village and on the same street.

[Chappers]

ya... because the super great crusades are only one of the biggest atrocities ever committed in the history of the world.

As a syrian christian, I can gladly say that this kind of honor killing crap doesnt go on anywhere in syria. I firmly believe that ANY government that makes OR made its laws based solely on religion should be reprimanded.

Like it or not, many islamic clerics and sheikhs have little or no respect for women. when this young girl was raped, her family saw it as someone raping them, and they needed to "destroy the bridge allowing their family to be raped" As strange as it sounds, thats how it is.

I know im probably going to get emails from devout muslims defending their leaders but look... ive read the quran, bible and torah; ive studied 4 major religions.. and lets not forget that I grew up in not only the same country as these people, but in the same village and on the same street.

You may have studied 4 religions but as a neighbour to Turkey surely you realise they are a secular country and don't believe in this crap too, hence the people involved were arrested.

But please don't tell me that Syria is perfect in this respect.

Syria is 85% Muslim (approx) and by your own argument (about Islamic clerics) has a similar disrespect for women, so it must be possible that this sort of thing happens there too.

[pseudobrit]

Apologize for what? That there are a dozen abusive guards instead of hundreds? That the wires attached to the genitals were no longer live? That only 25 people died in custody instead of hundreds?

He said what needed to be said. That what the people did was wrong, that they would be punished and things like that are not what we do.

When did people start apologizing for things they didn't do or cause or happened against their express wishes and intents?

We invaded their country on a false pretense. We have their people locked up in prisons. When you take someone into custody, they are not only your prisoner, they are your responsibility. You become their custodian.

Since a prisoner's freedom to live, work, feed and defend himself is no longer his own, the custodian is the one who must feed, shelter, clothe and defend him.

To betray your captive by torturing him is no better than torturing pets; it's worse. These are fellow men.

[Voltron]

We invaded their country on a false pretense. We have their people locked up in prisons. When you take someone into custody, they are not only your prisoner, they are your responsibility. You become their custodian.

Since a prisoner's freedom to live, work, feed and defend himself is no longer his own, the custodian is the one who must feed, shelter, clothe and defend him.

To betray your captive by torturing him is no better than torturing pets; it's worse. These are fellow men.
We resumed war because their leader failled to honor the surrender agreement he signed.

We have their people locked up in prisons such like we would do in any war with any other country.

However we should punish those prison officials who did not abide by US policies in dealing with their prisoners. We are suppose to be better than that. For that and that alone maybe the President should give an apology. But its more important that he do his job and make sure those responsible are punished. Not saying he can't do both.

[mactastic]

Lol, that's the same Sly-Voltron-Hunter all right! What, getting banned once wasn't enough for you?

And what if one of the people Dubya has to punish is himself?

[Voltron]

Lol, that's the same Sly-Voltron-Hunter all right! What, getting banned once wasn't enough for you?

And what if one of the people Dubya has to punish is himself?
Are you saying I should fear being banned for stating my honest opinion? If that is what you meant then its a very rotten premise.

I don't recall Bush being one of the ones who mistreated the prisoners.

[mactastic]

I dunno what got you banned, but this isn't a democracy in case no one explained that to you. If you cause lots of work for the mods they will ban you rather than waste time dealing. This is a private organization with the right to include/exclude anyone they want. Things like telling me I needed to justify my existance surely put you on the bubble.

Regardless...
Rummy didn't mistreat the prisoners either. But punishment may extend to those who knew, or reasonably should have known what was going on, wouldn't you agree?

But don't take my word for it, take Dubya's:
War crimes will be prosecuted, war criminals will be punished and it will be no defense to say, "I was just following orders."

-George W. Bush, 3/19/2003

[pseudobrit]

Are you saying I should fear being banned for stating my honest opinion? If that is what you meant then its a very rotten premise.

If your honest opinion of others is that they are rotten and you can't either put that idea into nice words or shut up then yeah, your honest opinion'll get you banned.

I don't recall Bush being one of the ones who mistreated the prisoners.

And I'm sure you're itching to point out that John Kerry is an admitted war criminal and won't apologise either and that means Democrats are bad people and, and ... rah, rah, go team, yay Republicans!!!

[Ugg]

However we should punish those prison officials who did not abide by US policies in dealing with their prisoners. We are suppose to be better than that. For that and that alone maybe the President should give an apology. But its more important that he do his job and make sure those responsible are punished. Not saying he can't do both.

Well, it looks like he's doing a pretty piss poor job of it. Rummy is beyond a doubt responsible for a great deal of the torture, but gw has declared him innocent even before an enquiry has taken place. Also, there's the whole mercenary connection. Men and women hired by the govt. with no accountability attached. What a bunch of bs.

[IJ Reilly]

Apologize for what? That there are a dozen abusive guards instead of hundreds? That the wires attached to the genitals were no longer live? That only 25 people died in custody instead of hundreds?

He said what needed to be said. That what the people did was wrong, that they would be punished and things like that are not what we do.

When did people start apologizing for things they didn't do or cause or happened against their express wishes and intents?

It's called taking responsibility because you're in charge and it happened on your watch. You know, the old "commander in chief" thing? Maybe George W. should take a look at how Ronald Reagan handled the Beirut bombing incident -- instead of trying to fob the blame off on people down the line, he accepted complete responsibility for the deaths of those Marines.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Voltron
Are you saying I should fear being banned for stating my honest opinion? If that is what you meant then its a very rotten premise.

If your honest opinion of others is that they are rotten and you can't either put that idea into nice words or shut up then yeah, your honest opinion'll get you banned.



And I'm sure you're itching to point out that John Kerry is an admitted war criminal and won't apologise either and that means Democrats are bad people and, and ... rah, rah, go team, yay Republicans!!!
1. I never stated any one was "rotten" I said the premise was rotten.
2. I don't have to say anything about John Kerry when you already did.

They use independant contractors to fill in qualified job slots that they don't have enough of in uniform. For example they don't have enough uniformed translators so they have to hire people who can translate. Thus they have to use independant contractors. The alternative could be to have a group of people in charge of the prisoners and none of them speak the language.

[pseudobrit]

1. I never stated any one was "rotten" I said the premise was rotten.
2. I don't have to say anything about John Kerry when you already did.

You totally missed the point and I totally remember why I had you on ignore.

Goodbye again, troll.

[Ugg]

They use independant contractors to fill in qualified job slots that they don't have enough of in uniform. For example they don't have enough uniformed translators so they have to hire people who can translate. Thus they have to use independant contractors. The alternative could be to have a group of people in charge of the prisoners and none of them speak the language.

The question that should now be asked is why there aren't enough qualified uniforms to do the job? Poor planning on the part of the neocons perhaps?

Then again, maybe too many Iraqis are being put in prison for unlimited amounts of time with no recourse to legal help or for that matter even being charged with a crime. If the prison population were halved, it would reduce the need for such "specialized" positions.

I think the language requirement is a moot point anyway. I doubt there are too many volunteers who have that requirement and it seems that they, the ones without any language abilities, were the ones taking most of the pictures.

Let's face it sly/vol, the entire "independent contractor" issue is a fiasco. Just one more way the gw & co. are trying to avoid responsibility for what is happening in Iraq.



I liked having you on my ignore list before and am going to put you on it again after this post.

I read a lot of leftist stuff, but I take it for what it is not the gospel truth, nor do I use it to back up an argument. It's just another opinion. You would do well to do the same if you want to have a disussion with anyone here.

[Voltron]

The question that should now be asked is why there aren't enough qualified uniforms to do the job? Poor planning on the part of the neocons perhaps?

Maybe it has to do with our shrinking the military during the Clinton years. I was in the forces back then. They went out of their way to get people to not want to reenlist. We had a saying back then in the Army "those who were qualified to remain in weren't stupid enough to do so." People were getting court martialed for getting a Sun burn on their T-shirt area during their off duty time. Another was court martialed for getting VD three times from the same girl and then asking his Captain permission to marry her. He was shipped off to Leavenworth for 2 years before dishonorable discharge. Another was court martialed for not stopping a fight while he was off duty in a civilian bar when he was the highest ranking person in the bar. He was an E-4 (Specialist) and didn't know most of the people in the bar and thus had no reason to suspect he was the highest ranking person much less that the ones fighting were in the Army too. One man working under me misinterpreted his orders and thought he could go to chow before reporting for duty in the morning while we were doing a field problem behind our barracks. My E-6 tried to get him court martialed for AWOL because he was an hour late reporting for duty. These samples were people I knew not articles I read on the internet.

Then again, maybe too many Iraqis are being put in prison for unlimited amounts of time with no recourse to legal help or for that matter even being charged with a crime. If the prison population were halved, it would reduce the need for such "specialized" positions.

I believe they are terrorists or military combatants that are being placed in those prisons. People who would be shooting at our troops if we released them. POW's would be a proper term I would think. This isn't a police action going on over there in Iraq.

I think the language requirement is a moot point anyway. I doubt there are too many volunteers who have that requirement and it seems that they, the ones without any language abilities, were the ones taking most of the pictures.

and then turning those pictures over to the authorities. Problem is when you are in that position is who do you turn them into. Do you turn them into your company commander who may have been the one who issued the orders? There are procedures which require contact with CID operatives but did they give the orders to do that? Whoever turned the pictures in risked allot. Soldiers turned in the soldiers who performed the misdeeds. I do wonder what were these people thinking taking these pictures like it was some sort of game without fear that those pictures might some day be used to incarcerate them.


I liked having you on my ignore list before and am going to put you on it again after this post.

I read a lot of leftist stuff, but I take it for what it is not the gospel truth, nor do I use it to back up an argument. It's just another opinion. You would do well to do the same if you want to have a disussion with anyone here.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't take everything said on the right as gospel. I do look for alternative verifyable news sources. But I am an ordinary citizen and I must rely on what I have. I do not understand why folks have problems with me expressing my opinion simply because it is not the same as their own.

[Neserk]

It's called taking responsibility because you're in charge and it happened on your watch. You know, the old "commander in chief" thing? Maybe George W. should take a look at how Ronald Reagan handled the Beirut bombing incident -- instead of trying to fob the blame off on people down the line, he accepted complete responsibility for the deaths of those Marines.


Bush was certainly happy to take credit about how "we" captured Saddam... :rolleyes: I guess "we" only works when it is politically beneficial.

[IJ Reilly]

Bush was certainly happy to take credit about how "we" captured Saddam... :rolleyes: I guess "we" only works when it is politically beneficial.

I've said it before, but I think it stands up to repetition: A great leader gives credit and takes blame; a poor leader takes credit and gives blame.

[blackfox]

I've said it before, but I think it stands up to repetition: A great leader gives credit and takes blame; a poor leader takes credit and gives blame.
Dam* Straight...I don't care how many times you've said it - it is always right.

[Chappers]

Obviously when Bush said "Shock and awe" he really meant point 3 for shock and point 2b for awe.
What a great way to make friends and influence people.

shock1 ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(shk)
n.

1.
a. A violent collision or impact; a heavy blow. See Synonyms at collision.
b. The effect of such a collision or blow.

2.
a. Something that jars the mind or emotions as if with a violent unexpected blow.
b. The disturbance of function, equilibrium, or mental faculties caused by such a blow; violent agitation.

3. A severe offense to one's sense of propriety or decency; an outrage.

4. A potentially fatal physiological reaction to a variety of conditions, including illness, injury, hemorrhage, and dehydration, usually characterized by marked loss of blood pressure, diminished blood circulation, and inadequate blood flow to the tissues.
5. The sensation and muscular spasm caused by an electric current passing through the body or a body part.
6. A sudden economic disturbance, such as a rise in the price of a commodity.
7. A shock absorber.


awe ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(ô)
n.

1. A mixed emotion of reverence, respect, dread, and wonder inspired by authority, genius, great beauty, sublimity, or might: We felt awe when contemplating the works of Bach. The observers were in awe of the destructive power of the new weapon.

2. Archaic.
a. The power to inspire dread.
b. Dread.

[radhak]

Lol, that's the same Sly-Voltron-Hunter all right! What, getting banned once wasn't enough for you?


If your honest opinion of others is that they are rotten and you can't either put that idea into nice words or shut up then yeah, your honest opinion'll get you banned.




I liked having you on my ignore list before and am going to put you on it again after this post.

I read a lot of leftist stuff, but I take it for what it is not the gospel truth, nor do I use it to back up an argument. It's just another opinion. You would do well to do the same if you want to have a disussion with anyone here.





Originally Posted by Voltron
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blahblahblahofgodfearingblahblahblahblahblahblahblahconservativesblahblahblahblahblah
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blahblahblahblahblahdissentersblahblahblahblahblahwillbeprisonersblahblahblahblahblahand noneofthemspeakblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahastheyblahblahblahblahblahblahwhine.
blahblahbutblahblahblahblahblahthatblahblahblahblahblahwhichdistractsblahblahblahblahblah
usfromblahblahblahblahblahkillingmuslimsblahblahblahblahblahblahandmakingmoneyblah
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sorry, tired and illtempered...I apologize


Mac, Pseudo, Ugg and fox, I have to protest at this point.
You guys need to take it easy a bit. It seems to me you are all trying to deliberately provoke Sly/Voltron. At least in the last few posts I did not see anything he has posted that could be construed a direct insult, or more than a heated debate. He has been expressing his opinion pretty strongly, just like all of us do.

On the other hand your posts are going beyond plain arguments and are rather attacking, and its like everybody is ganging up on him.

Give the guy a break, and take his arguments apart, not him personally ;)

[radhak]

We resumed war because their leader failled to honor the surrender agreement he signed.

We have their people locked up in prisons such like we would do in any war with any other country.

This is a pretty flimsy ground. The original war was fought because Iraq invaded Kuwait and the US did not like it, ostensibly because it stood for good neighbourly behaviour all over the world, but no secret that it was because of Kuwait's value for the US (otherwise the US of A would be permanently involved policing the African nations).

and if this is the way the US wants to be known for treating prisoners 'in any war with any country', then it has bigger problems.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Voltron
We resumed war because their leader failled to honor the surrender agreement he signed.

We have their people locked up in prisons such like we would do in any war with any other country.

This is a pretty flimsy ground. The original war was fought because Iraq invaded Kuwait and the US did not like it, ostensibly because it stood for good neighbourly behaviour all over the world, but no secret that it was because of Kuwait's value for the US (otherwise the US of A would be permanently involved policing the African nations).

and if this is the way the US wants to be known for treating prisoners 'in any war with any country', then it has bigger problems.
Had we not went in and removed Saddam from Kuwaitt we would've just bought our oil from Saddam. He didn't care who he sold the oil to. However it is in our best interest to insure stability in the Middle East to protect our oil interest at least until we have an alternate source that can keep our country running. Protecting those sources and insuring they are in the hands of those friendly to America is protecting America.

We are not big enough nor powerful enough to go around protecting/rescuing/freeing countries that do not have something for us to gain in return. There are too many of them for us to go around trying to free the world. Nor is it necessarily our right.

[mactastic]

So it's only our right to free oppressed people when they have oil for us? That's not very humanitarian of you. Are you saying that some people are more deserving of liberty than others?

[skunk]

So it's only our right to free oppressed people when they have oil for us?
That'll be Venezuela, then. Look out, Chavez!

[Voltron]

So it's only our right to free oppressed people when they have oil for us? That's not very humanitarian of you. Are you saying that some people are more deserving of liberty than others?
I wouldn't say that. I would say that we have limited resources and should only apply them as we see fit as best for ourselves. After all they are our resources.

[skunk]

After all they are our resources.
Which is more than you can say for the oil....

[mactastic]

I wouldn't say that. I would say that we have limited resources and should only apply them as we see fit as best for ourselves. After all they are our resources.

IOW, Iraq really WAS about the oil? 'Cause you just jettisoned the 'humanitarian' rationale for the war.

[skunk]

'Cause you just jettisoned the 'humanitarian' rationale for the war.
Just doesn't ring true these days like it used to....

[Voltron]

IOW, Iraq really WAS about the oil? 'Cause you just jettisoned the 'humanitarian' rationale for the war.
The rationale was failure to honor the surrender agreement.

While freeing the people of Iraq and stopping the torture committed by Saddam's regime are also benefits and ends to the war I myself am not sure that it would be justifycation for starting a war. Because if it was used as justifycation then we would be forced to become the worlds morality police going around freeing citizens in Cuba, several Africa Countries, Kurds in turkey, etc. It would never end and thus would be dangerous to use as a valid reason. Therefore there must be other reasons like Saddam's refusal to honor his surrender agreement, protection of our ally's, and/or in defense of our own interests. That is just my own opinion. Our tech for our military units and our defensive capabilities of those who participate in such wars must be increased drastically before we start using the reason to free people under a tortureous regime as a reason to start wars.

Also I believe that the reason that those who were in opposition to the war weren't in opposition due to "humanitarian reasons". I believe it was because of their secret and illegal oil deals with Saddam Hussein. I also believe that going in to free the Iraqi people considering the level of the in humane treatment by Saddams government of his own people would be a noble idea. However at this time would be dangerous to start a precedent.

[IJ Reilly]

Just doesn't ring true these days like it used to....

Oh, I don't know. How about, "they're our humans, and we should use them as we wish."

[skunk]

Therefore there must be other reasons like Saddam's refusal to honor his surrender agreement, protection of our ally's, and/or in defense of our own interests.
Politics with hindsight is too easy, isn't it? Just do whatever you want and invent a reason for it later.

Our tech for our military units and our defensive capabilities of those who participate in such wars must be increased drastically before we start using the reason to free people under a tortureous regime as a reason to start wars.
So must your ethical capabilities. You are running a torturers' regime.

Also I believe that the reason that those who were in opposition to the war weren't in opposition due to "humanitarian reasons". I believe it was because of their secret and illegal oil deals with Saddam Hussein..
So all those millions of people who demonstrated against the war had oil deals going? Wow, it's bigger than I thought!

I also believe that going in to free the Iraqi people considering the level of the inhumane treatment by Saddams government of his own people would be a noble idea. However at this time would be dangerous to start a precedent.
Are you on planet Earth or planet Voltron? Here on Earth it is quite obvious that inhumane treatment is the stock-in-trade of the US Army. I don't think you realize that the US has LOST. It's over. Whatever moral high ground you may have imagined you had has been shown to be a sham. Why don't you stop defending the indefensible and try to suggest a positive exit strategy, if you can think of one, instead of pretending that it's all going swimmingly well.

[Neserk]

Also I believe that the reason that those who were in opposition to the war weren't in opposition due to "humanitarian reasons". I believe it was because of their secret and illegal oil deals with Saddam Hussein.

Yup. You caught me. I had secret and illegal oil deals with Saddam Hussein... that is why I was against the war :rolleyes:

[Voltron]

So must your ethical capabilities. You are running a torturers' regime.

What regime am I running? You must know something I don't.


Are you on planet Earth or planet Voltron? Here on Earth it is quite obvious that inhumane treatment is the stock-in-trade of the US Army. I don't think you realize that the US has LOST. It's over. Whatever moral high ground you may have imagined you had has been shown to be a sham. Why don't you stop defending the indefensible and try to suggest a positive exit strategy, if you can think of one, instead of pretending that it's all going swimmingly well.
It is not obvious to me that the US Army in general practices inhumane treatment. Some people in the army maybe but not our general policy. You can't compare what happened in that prison to what happened in Iraq before we got there or a multitudes of other examples. Saddam would drill holes in peoples hands, hang women upside down during their time of the month for fun, a multitude of torturous activities that I can't describe on this forum because they are so disgusting, rotten and bad. Nothing compared to what those troopers did. Nothing compared to the slow hacking of someones neck as was recently protrayed by those so called peace ful terrorists.

Where is our exit strategy for Germany were still there?
Where is our exit strategy for Japan?
Where is our exit strategy for a multitude of nations.
I tell you the exit strategy in Iraq if I were in command. When they stop shooting at our troops as they patrol the streets. When an Iraqi government is free to hold elections among the people. When the power lines can be completly constructed without having to worry about them blowing up. When the government of Iraq is back and ready to take control completly with the full power of a police force and military force so as to be able to police their own. Then and only then would it be time for us to leave.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Voltron
Also I believe that the reason that those who were in opposition to the war weren't in opposition due to "humanitarian reasons". I believe it was because of their secret and illegal oil deals with Saddam Hussein.
Yup. You caught me. I had secret and illegal oil deals with Saddam Hussein... that is why I was against the war :rolleyes:
For those who did not know my post was talking about those leaders in the UN and/or in NATO who were against us going to war in Iraq. Not every single individual who had an opinion on the matter. :rolleyes:

[Neserk]

For those who did not know my post was talking about those leaders in the UN and/or in NATO who were against us going to war in Iraq. Not every single individual who had an opinion on the matter. :rolleyes:

I figured that ;) But why let a chance go by to be sarcastic when I'm in the right mood? :D

[Ugg]

Where is our exit strategy for Germany were still there?


That is a very interesting point. The French and the Brits had no desire to see a strong Germany and wanted to split it up and we had already other things on our plate. Lucius Clay, the man responsible for our humane approach to postwar Germany realized quite early on that it would be very easy to become a communist if they were offering 1500 calories worth of food a day and we were only offering 900 calories. He quickly upped the rations and the Germans, not wanting to starve, embraced the west not the east.

The moral of the above is that honey attracts more flies than vinegar and that if we don't want Iraq to turn into another Iran then we damn well better start doing something to keep the Iraqis looking west. Locking them up and abusing them and killing innocent women and children is not the way to win their hearts. Human nature is human nature and we may have "won" the war but we have lost the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds.

Oh well, how many billion down the drain?

[IJ Reilly]

Oh well, how many billion down the drain?

Who's counting?

In any event, you made the best of responding to a poor point. The primary reason we had no "exit strategy" in Germany after World War II is because the hot war was followed by the Cold War.

[pseudobrit]

Mac, Pseudo, Ugg and fox, I have to protest at this point.
You guys need to take it easy a bit. It seems to me you are all trying to deliberately provoke Sly/Voltron. At least in the last few posts I did not see anything he has posted that could be construed a direct insult, or more than a heated debate. He has been expressing his opinion pretty strongly, just like all of us do.

On the other hand your posts are going beyond plain arguments and are rather attacking, and its like everybody is ganging up on him.

Give the guy a break, and take his arguments apart, not him personally ;)

We tried debate. He's a troll, plain and simple. He copies and pastes volumes of crap from right-wing nut websites and presents them as sole "evidence" of his outrageous claims, if he can find even that kind of "evidence" to support the nonsense he spews. It's spam and I'm not reading every bloody word anymore; it's too much work. It's like an astrophysicist debating quantum physics with a bunch of six year-olds. The scientist is constantly having to answer simple, stupid questions (in this case it's responding to ************ accusations, half-truths and damned lies) that anyone who bothered to inform herself properly wouldn't need to ask.

There's only so many times you can call BS on someone's nonsense and flamebait before you realise that they won't be shamed, slowed, or swayed by the fact that they're ignorant of the truth, that they enjoy being lied to so much that they urge others to partake in the brainwashing. He's flooded this forum with nonsense.

I tried, I got sick of it, it gave up. I'm not sorry and I don't know why you are; he's been banned once and circumvented the banning. I have no respect for such people. That's why he's on my ignore list. I urge everyone else who has tried to have honest, intelligent debate and failed because you can't fight the flood of copy/paste BS to do so also.

[skunk]

I tried, I got sick of it, it gave up. I'm not sorry and I don't know why you are; he's been banned once and circumvented the banning. I have no respect for such people. That's why he's on my ignore list. I urge everyone else who has tried to have honest, intelligent debate and failed because you can't fight the flood of copy/paste BS to do so also.
Too much time on his hands, I guess. He should get a PROPER job.