EU expands tonight...

[markoibook]

So tonight at 22:00GMT the European Union (EU) is going to expand from 15 to 25 countries.
What's your views on this expansion - and what is the general view in your country?

Heres a link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3672813.stm

[markoibook]

Out of interest - is there anyone here from any of the 10 new countries joining - if so what's your view on it? Are you glad to be joining the EU, and what benefits will it bring you??

[Sayhey]

So tonight at 22:00GMT the European Union (EU) is going to expand from 15 to 25 countries.
What's your views on this expansion - and what is the general view in your country?

Heres a link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3672813.stm

This is big, big news, but we now have three threads on this subject. Which should we use to discuss it?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=69681

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=70000

[iceman17505]

The EU brings down the economy of all the countries that join it. It was a bad idea from the start and now peopleare starting to regret joining. Not to mention the fact that the EU harbors tarrorists...

[markoibook]

The EU brings down the economy of all the countries that join it. It was a bad idea from the start and now peopleare starting to regret joining. Not to mention the fact that the EU harbors tarrorists...
Out of interest, what country are you from? I know that in the UK many people feel that the EU does bring down the UK's economy.

Also there is the scare of the U.S.E - the United States of Europe...

[SlyHunter]

The EU brings down the economy of all the countries that join it. It was a bad idea from the start and now peopleare starting to regret joining. Not to mention the fact that the EU harbors tarrorists...
Actually its a great idea for the EU although not necessarily for all of its members. Time to call our troops home their not needed in Europe anymore.

[markoibook]

Time is a-ticking away...

[Sayhey]

I know that in the UK many people feel that the EU does bring down the UK's economy.

Also there is the scare of the U.S.E - the United States of Europe...

Do you think the Euroskeptic sentiment will be enough to sink the new Constitution? I would think that there will have to be some provision placed in the new draft to have it go into effect without a unanimous vote of the 25 members in the countries that do vote to adopt. Otherwise, it is likely a futile effort, considering the move to referendums that Blair has started. Enough fear will be generated somewhere to make a unanimous vote unlikely.

[markoibook]

Only 3 hours to go now. Strange thing is, it doesn't seem to be such a big thing in the UK than you might think.
I remember the introduction of the Euro - that was a big thing here, even though we didn't partake. Surely the almost doubling of the EU is just as big an issue - maybe even bigger!!???

[skunk]

Only 3 hours to go now. Strange thing is, it doesn't seem to be such a big thing in the UK than you might think.
I remember the introduction of the Euro - that was a big thing here, even though we didn't partake. Surely the almost doubling of the EU is just as big an issue - maybe even bigger!!???
Perhaps if we ignore it, it'll go away...

[numediaman]

Don't worry about Iceman, markoibook. He's a troll who, I think, is already banned.

I'd say that this story is only big in the US among news junkies like myself. I don't think that many the the US realize that the combination of loss of respect in America and a lack of leadership by America, combined with the growth of the EU, is setting up a new dynamic in the world -- both politically and economically. I think this is a healthy development.

[skunk]

Don't worry about Iceman, markoibook. He's a troll who, I think, is already banned.

I'd say that this story is only big in the US among news junkies like myself. I don't think that many the the US realize that the combination of loss of respect in America and a lack of leadership by America, combined with the growth of the EU, is setting up a new dynamic in the world -- both politically and economically. I think this is a healthy development.
I'd say it'll be a long, long time before Europe has a united political voice. Chirac and Berlusconi do not speak for me.

[mactastic]

I wish there was a way to merge these two threads...

[Lyle]

I'd say that this story is only big in the US among news junkies like myself. I don't think that many the the US realize that the combination of loss of respect in America and a lack of leadership by America, combined with the growth of the EU, is setting up a new dynamic in the world -- both politically and economically. I think this is a healthy development.
I'm sort-of a news junkie, but most of the news outlets seem to be covering more critical news, namely, the Michael Jackson case. :(

Is there any good information on-line that discusses the purpose/charter of the EU?

[skunk]

I'm sort-of a news junkie, but most of the news outlets seem to be covering more critical news, namely, the Michael Jackson case. :(

Is there any good information on-line that discusses the purpose/charter of the EU?
Try http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm for a primer.

[Sayhey]

Is there any good information on-line that discusses the purpose/charter of the EU?

Try the EU's own web site for more information than you'll ever want to know.

Europa (http://europa.eu.int/index_en.htm)

[Lyle]

Try http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm for a primer.
Thanks very much, skunk, this is exactly what I was looking for. Looks like a good read for this weekend. ;)

[markoibook]

So thats it - the EU just got a whole lot bigger...

[skunk]

So thats it - the EU just got a whole lot bigger...
Whoop-de-Doop! I feel like a new person! Suddenly I can speak in tongues!

[numediaman]

Wish I were in Paris tonight. Congratulations to the new EU members. I've decided to open a bottle Champagne to celebrate.

[skunk]

Wish I were in Paris tonight. Congratulations to the new EU members. I've decided to open a bottle Champagne to celebrate.
Any excuse :D

[groovebuster]

Isn't that cool? I can just sit in my car now and travel almost whole eastern europe just like that in addition to all the other countries. The only thing I need is my ID card! :)

15 years ago you needed a visa for going anywhere there or you couldn't go at all. MP at the borders with machine guns all over the place. Pretty much like it is today, when you want to enter the USA! ;)

Really guys, you get so much used to not be checked anymore at the borders in Europe that you feel like going to prison when you want to travel to North America. Last time we were in Canada (for X-mas) we had to wait 1.5 hours in line before we were past the little Immigration Canada booth. It was really fun with a 2.5 years old kid after travelling since 11 hours. :rolleyes: When we went back to Europe (via Paris) we had to wait for 1 minute in line. Now that's a difference, right? Unfornatunately the North Americans really became paranoid.

If it wouldn't be for the family of my wife, we wouldn't go at all anymore to North America...

A heartly "welcome" to the 10 new members! :)

groovebuster

[numediaman]

If it wouldn't be for the family of my wife, we wouldn't go at all anymore to North America...

groovebuster

Actually, its the family of my wife that makes me want to not be in North America anymore. But that's another story . . . ;) :D

[Sayhey]

Chirac and Berlusconi do not speak for me.

God, I'd hope not! :p But skunk, even if I agree with your feelings about those two, which I wholeheartedly do, it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of good things about this expansion. Some dangers as well, to be sure, but, in general, it's a good thing for the countries of Europe to knock down barriers that separate them, wouldn't you say?

[groovebuster]

Actually, its the family of my wife that makes me want to not be in North America anymore. But that's another story . . . ;) :D
:D :D :D :D :D

Oh, well... mothers-in-law are really another story! :p

With mine I negotiated a ceasefire and since then we really can have a lot of fun... as long as I just ignore her attitiude on daily life things. Man, why women become so strange when they are over 50??? My mother also starts to be a pain in the lower back lately. My poor wife... :rolleyes:

groovebuster

[skunk]

God, I'd hope not! :p But skunk, even if I agree with your feelings about those two, which I wholeheartedly do, it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of good things about this expansion. Some dangers as well, to be sure, but, in general, it's a good thing for the countries of Europe to knock down barriers that separate them, wouldn't you say?
Sure it's a good thing for the new entrants: but it's the rampant corruption, subsidies, backhanders, nepotism and graft that bug me. It's a bureaucratic nightmare on a Napoleonic scale: it seems sometimes like Trafalgar and Waterloo were fought in vain. :rolleyes:

[Sayhey]

Sure it's a good thing for the new entrants: but it's the rampant corruption, subsidies, backhanders, nepotism and graft that bug me. It's a bureaucratic nightmare on a Napoleonic scale: it seems sometimes like Trafalgar and Waterloo were fought in vain. :rolleyes:

LOL, not to mention Agincourt or Poitiers, eh? ;) Seriously, it makes a lot of sense to be concerned about all those things, but don't you think they all took place in the context of the relations with the new entrants before they came into the EU? Now at least there are ways to start to try to control and combat some of this. In Europe, you have the tradition of an ombudsman that can help. Here, we have to rely on the crooks to police themselves.

[skunk]

LOL, not to mention Agincourt or Poitiers, eh? ;) Seriously, it makes a lot of sense to be concerned about all those things, but don't you think they all took place in the context of the relations with the new entrants before they came into the EU? Now at least there are ways to start to try to control and combat some of this. In Europe, you have the tradition of an ombudsman that can help. Here, we have to rely on the crooks to police themselves.
Sadly, the ombudsperson doesn't seem to be all that effective. The entire European Commission resigned en masse after a particularly blatant series of improprieties a while back, but the replacement lot are still carrying on the same corruption. I agree that we have a chance to improve things now with all the new blood, but since the European Constitution has not been agreed, and is unlikely to be for some time especially if the UK referendum result is negative, I am concerned that the focus will be on the modus operandi rather than the agenda. Excuse the Latin. :)

[Sayhey]

Sadly, the ombudsperson doesn't seem to be all that effective. The entire European Commission resigned en masse after a particularly blatant series of improprieties a while back, but the replacement lot are still carrying on the same corruption. I agree that we have a chance to improve things now with all the new blood, but since the European Constitution has not been agreed, and is unlikely to be for some time especially if the UK referendum result is negative, I am concerned that the focus will be on the modus operandi rather than the agenda. Excuse the Latin. :)

No doubt the corruption you speak of is corrosive, but it occurs in the context of growth and progress not decline. I'm sure you all will find a way to combat it. It seems an awful lot of this flows out of the smuggling rackets of Eastern Europe. Better to use the standards and rules of the EU to fight it than let it go unchecked.

As to the referendum, do you think the combination of Labour and Liberal Democrats can win the British population to support the new constitution or is it a hopeless cause? I know if the vote took place now it would fail, but it would seem that a year or so out is time enough to wage a campaign on the benefits of the EU and the constitution.

No problem on the Latin. ;)

[skunk]

No doubt the corruption you speak of is corrosive, but it occurs in the context of growth and progress not decline. I'm sure you all will find a way to combat it. It seems an awful lot of this flows out of the smuggling rackets of Eastern Europe. Better to use the standards and rules of the EU to fight it than let it go unchecked.

As to the referendum, do you think the combination of Labour and Liberal Democrats can win the British population to support the new constitution or is it a hopeless cause? I know if the vote took place now it would fail, but it would seem that a year or so out is time enough to wage a campaign on the benefits of the EU and the constitution.

No problem on the Latin. ;)
Well, OK then, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" :D That's the problem with the constitution as I see it. You lot tend not to favour "big government": the EU government is HUGE. They are barely accountable, they want to regulate everything into the ground, and the budget is MASSIVE. The Boston Tea Party was thrown over less. Maybe it'll straighten itself out over time, but at the moment all I see is a big gravy train taking on more passengers.

[Sayhey]

Well, OK then, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" :D That's the problem with the constitution as I see it. You lot tend not to favour "big government": the EU government is HUGE. They are barely accountable, they want to regulate everything into the ground, and the budget is MASSIVE. The Boston Tea Party was thrown over less. Maybe it'll straighten itself out over time, but at the moment all I see is a big gravy train taking on more passengers.

Don't confuse the Republican rhetoric of "smaller government" with reality. The government has grown tremendously under Bush. We all have the problem of "whose watching the watchers" or "guarding the guards" but all in all you lot seem to have done a better job than over here.

Have to admit that it all seems to be a bit "loose" with the EU. Partly, I think that must be from so many layers of government and bureaucracy. The new Constitution does reform some of it, but it obviously has a long way to go. That's the nature of the beast when so many people's wishes must be taken in account. At the same time it is the tremendous strength of the effort as all of it is voluntary and through reaching consensus. In the end, what you all are attempting is the way for us all to go. That is if we are to get away from this madness of nationalism and confrontation. Good luck in making a hell of massive a project work.

[skunk]

In the end, what you all are attempting is the way for us all to go. That is if we are to get away from this madness of nationalism and confrontation. Good luck in making a hell of massive a project work.
Certainly it's a better solution than mutual invasions, and certainly the goal of an entire continent of formerly warring states being locked together in a peaceful union is praiseworthy. The devil is in the details.

We'll do our best... :)