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View Full Version : The thing that annoys me most about how being a Windows user for so long affected me


ChrisH3677
May 1, 2004, 02:49 AM
This might sound dumb to some people, but I guess since I was around in the old DOS days when everything was done via keystrokes, the thing that annoys me most about how Windows influenced and changed me, is the way it made me mouse dependent.

Again, this will sound dumb to some, but I like the single button mouse because it means using keystrokes more often. But I always wimp out and plug a two button mouse into my laptop.

Windoze has made me lazy.

I see definite advantages in using more keystrokes.

- it's good for your posture. When you do everything by mouse, you get more and more comfortable in your chair. Keystrokes force you to sit up - even if it's just to do command-clicks.

- keystrokes can be more productive. eg command-H is quicker than click app menu, click Hide-app

- the more moving your hands do, the more you reduce the risk of rsi. so moving from mouse to keyboard more often, is a good thing.

The other problem I've found coming to Mac, is I'm missing out on some excellent shortcuts by not using keystrokes.

I hope overtime I will be exorcised of this bad behavior, and will become a good keyboard user.

What do others think? Am I wrong? deluded? misguided? Or do you agree?

Darwin
May 1, 2004, 03:57 AM
I can understand that you feel lazy by just using a mouse

However in the Command lines days, I'm sure there were those who couldn't handle learning all the key strokes which is why a GUI is now on our screens today

I believe the mouse is useful too, as I play games I use both mouse and keyboard so one can't replace the other. I also try to use key strokes when possible instead of relying on the mouse :)

Jigglelicious
May 1, 2004, 09:52 AM
I have to admit, I kinda miss the days of DOS and the command prompt. That black screen with a flashing c:\ prompt was intimidating enough to keep everyone but the most geeky of people away from computers. Nowadays, everyone and their 90 year old grandmother is browsing the net and enjoying the thrills of computing - something that was once limited only to our special little society ;)

baby duck monge
May 1, 2004, 11:23 AM
i, too, am a big fan of keystrokes. i never used DOS or anything, and it's not that i feel lazy using the mouse, it's just that keystrokes can do a lot of things faster. i'm still not comfortable in the terminal, but any basic keystrokes i can work in to my everyday computing are great. this is why i love the command-tab switching and am growing to love such programs as quicksilver.

titaniumducky
May 1, 2004, 01:08 PM
I have to admit, I kinda miss the days of DOS and the command prompt. That black screen with a flashing c:\ prompt was intimidating enough to keep everyone but the most geeky of people away from computers. Nowadays, everyone and their 90 year old grandmother is browsing the net and enjoying the thrills of computing - something that was once limited only to our special little society ;)

Use Terminal or start up into Unix (hold cmd-s at startup).

g30ffr3y
May 1, 2004, 02:08 PM
id rather use key commands than mouse clicks... i think it ends up being
faster and less annoying trying to aim the mouse...

not that im incompitant and cant aim a mouse... but if i can apple-q
to quit a program... id rather do that than resort to the mouse...

crenz
May 1, 2004, 02:37 PM
ChrisH3677, I don't really get what you mean. I use the mouse much more since I switched to Mac OS X. Windows still has much better keyboard support: If an app is written according to Windows guidelines, it is possible to control it completely using the keyboard, except for really mouse-dependant stuff like drawing. Mac OS X is nowhere near as capable, even when you switch on accessibility.

It does have a Terminal (which probably is the most-used app on my Mac), but for me, a command line is a whole different concept and doesn't fit into the mouse commands vs. keyboard commands discussion.

legion
May 1, 2004, 04:17 PM
ChrisH3677, I don't really get what you mean. I use the mouse much more since I switched to Mac OS X. Windows still has much better keyboard support: If an app is written according to Windows guidelines, it is possible to control it completely using the keyboard, except for really mouse-dependant stuff like drawing. Mac OS X is nowhere near as capable, even when you switch on accessibility.

It does have a Terminal (which probably is the most-used app on my Mac), but for me, a command line is a whole different concept and doesn't fit into the mouse commands vs. keyboard commands discussion.

Agreed. (Just a vote )

ChrisH3677
May 1, 2004, 08:02 PM
If an app is written according to Windows guidelines, it is possible to control it completely using the keyboard

I never found that. In fact I always found Windows apps to be frustrating coz they made me use the mouse more. Especially via right-clicks. I remember when W95 came out they kept emphasizing, right click, right click, right click.

I find OSX inconsistent in its implementation of command-clicks... but I felt it's keystroke coverage was better than Windows.

But next time I'm on Windows I'll try to find some examples.

On the Terminal/Command line thing, that wasn't so much I was getting at. I was more talking about apps themselves. eg I used to use Word Perfect in DOS and everything was keystroke driven. I reckon 2 minutes on it and most of them would come back to me.

But I also like the one-button mouse coz it does make me move more and not be a "mouse slouch"

dukemeiser
May 1, 2004, 09:47 PM
I agree. The best thing is that on a Mac keystrokes are universal. Cmd-Q is always quit, cmd-w is always close, and so on. Windows doesn't impose any standards, so keystrokes will vary from app to app.

Crikey
May 2, 2004, 12:08 AM
I agree. The best thing is that on a Mac keystrokes are universal. Cmd-Q is always quit, cmd-w is always close, and so on. Windows doesn't impose any standards, so keystrokes will vary from app to app.

What you allege about Windows is not quite true, though. Any Windows app written to suit the human interface guidelines has standard menus, like Mac apps do. Usually there are menu commands that are standard across many apps: File/Open, File/New, File/Close, File/Save, File/Print, File/preView, File/Quit, Edit/Find, Edit/Copy, Edit/Cut, Edit/Paste, Help/About, Tools/Options, and so on. You can pull down a menu in a Windows program by pressing Alt and the first character of the menu name, so Alt-F pulls down the File menu, then press V to get a print preview. Alt-E, F to start a Find. There is no mousing required to operate any command on the menus. In this respect, Windows programs are more consistent and faster to use than Mac programs. It wasn't enough to keep me from switching, though. ;-)

But I'd like it if I could do that in my Mac programs. Having the key command mirror the name of the menu makes the key commands easier to learn and remember, since it brings a spatial element to the key command interface.


Crikey

Counterfit
May 2, 2004, 02:47 AM
I usually use whatever my hands are on at the moment. If they're on the KB, I use cmd + shift + <, > to switch tabs. If they're on the mouse, I click ;)

crenz
May 2, 2004, 07:12 AM
I never found that. In fact I always found Windows apps to be frustrating coz they made me use the mouse more.

Crikey already mentioned the menu control, which enables you to do a lot already. The shortcuts you mentioned (Cmd+P etc.) are usually similar on Windows: Ctrl+P - Print, Ctrl+S - Save, Ctrl+C - Copy etc.

On top of that, Alt+F4 will close the app, Ctrl+F4 will close the window. Alt+Space lets you access the application system menu, Alt+- the window menu. These menus allow you to minimize, maximize and move windows and applications. Alt+Tab switches between applications, Ctrl+Tab between windows of the current application.

(By the way, is there a way on Mac OS X to move windows using the keyboard only? I'd love to be able to do that sometimes.)


Especially via right-clicks. I remember when W95 came out they kept emphasizing, right click, right click, right click.

Use the context menu key on the Windows keyboard. No need to right click. No need to even touch the mouse, as you can tab/shift+tab your way to the control whose context menu you want to open in any dialog window.

You can use Windows+R to start applications, Windows+M to minimize all apps, just the Windows key to open the start menu, then tab to select anything on the desktop or any window that is currently running (but of course you could use Alt+Tab for that also) etc. etc. The list goes on and on.

Do you understand now that I use my mouse much more with Mac OS X than with Windows? Thankfully, I am healthy and can use both my hands. For people that rely on the keyboard because they can't use a mouse, Mac OS X is much more difficult to use, I guess.

mvc
May 2, 2004, 08:27 AM
All I have to say about DOS (say in 1987) and the command line is:

del *.*

Hell, this bunch of cryptic letters was the original virus, in that virtually everyone who typed it in sure didn't get the result they intended. For those too young to remember, early versions of this command would remove EVERY file on the hard drive, including DOS itself!

Now I never did it but a fellow employee did and lost his job straight away! He just typed 'Y' when it asked 'Are you sure?' That was all the warning he had.

Sure don't miss that sort of efficiency in UI design :mad:

Apple //e
May 2, 2004, 11:31 AM
All I have to say about DOS (say in 1987) and the command line is:

del *.*

Hell, this bunch of cryptic letters was the original virus, in that virtually everyone who typed it in sure didn't get the result they intended. For those too young to remember, early versions of this command would remove EVERY file on the hard drive, including DOS itself!


what result were they expecting by typing the command that tells ms-dos to delete everything?