Steve Jobs advises Kerry campaign

[kylos]

link (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=71000001&refer=us&sid=a_u9tvuxi_Nc)

Oh, no! I can't buy mac ever again! :)

[StealthRider]

ARGH NOOOOOO!!!

That has to be illegal somehow...

[Flowbee]

Considering SJ personally invited Al Gore to serve on Apple's board, I can't see how this is much of a surprise.

[MacFan26]

If I'm not mistaken, Steve was also involved with Ross Perot. I believe Perot helped with funding for NeXT. Apologies if that's inaccurate. Is this really a suprise to anyone? Steve's a pretty well known democrat/independent. Especially now that Al Gore is on the board.

[kylos]

Obviously it's not a suprise, but I do think steve would do well to be less political. It's not good management to do so.

Oh and to everyone viewing this thread. It's a good idea not to get political here, either. There is a subforum for that and this ain't it. This is a mac topic as much as anything else so don't ruin it.

[evil]

Obviously it's not a suprise, but I do think steve would do well to be less political. It's not good management to do so.

Oh and to everyone viewing this thread. It's a good idea not to get political here, either. There is a subforum for that and this ain't it. This is a mac topic as much as anything else so don't ruin it.

isnt the topic political? so therefore how could the thread stay away from politics when the topic of the thread is political?

the mere fact that jobs is supporting kerry is political and invites political comment.

[gwuMACaddict]

Considering SJ personally invited Al Gore to serve on Apple's board, I can't see how this is much of a surprise.

i thought that was just cause big Al invented the internet. http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/blowup.gifhttp://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/mf_pcwhack.gif

[Grimace]

interesting that Buffett supports Ahnold (repub) and then attacks Bush too. Warran has always had the balls to tell it straight, without worrying about political repercussions.

[Sparky's]

I donno, kinda blows my faith in Apple :( :(

Let's see that's spelled "Windooz"????

Oh wait, Gates is just as much a Dem contributor as well, what will I do???

[Krizoitz]

Obviously it's not a suprise, but I do think steve would do well to be less political. It's not good management to do so.

Oh and to everyone viewing this thread. It's a good idea not to get political here, either. There is a subforum for that and this ain't it. This is a mac topic as much as anything else so don't ruin it.

What does his political views have to do with his management? I think its great that he is involved in politics, i only wish more Americans would pay attention and get involved. So long as he doesn't start shipping "Vote for Kerry" stickers with all new Macs I don't think this should affect how you buy in any way shape or form.

[Krizoitz]

I donno, kinda blows my faith in Apple :( :(


Steve Jobs political views have just about nothing to do with Apple as a company. I don't understand how you can equate the two. How does this blow your faith in Apple? Its not like SJ has hidden his political views and suddenly they are out there. I also don't see any of the decisions being made at Apple reflecting those views in any way.

It worries me when people are so commited to one party or the other that anything related to their opponent must be evil. Its that kind of fanatcism that blinds people to the truth and leads to alot of the proplems in politics these days.

Oh and I hope the mods move this to the Political Forum ASAP, thats where it needs to be.

[ThomasJefferson]

Steve is an intelligent guy with class and style. I am not at all surprised that he supports Kerry.

And as a proud freedom loving and fascist-baiting member of the Democratic Party, I hope this thread is moved to the political section. Fast. :D

[pinto32]

In addition to his great advice, it would be nice if Steve could contribute some Macs to the Kerry campaign!! The DNC could be celebrating victory while the RNC is still trying to reboot thier PCs after thier Bill O'Reilly screen savers all crashed (you know...cause all the programing jobs have been outsourced overseas) :D

[yamabushi]

Chill out. He just gave the guy advice. Industry and political leaders talk to each other. No news here.

[ThomasJefferson]

... The DNC could be celebrating victory while the RNC is still trying to reboot thier PCs after thier Bill O'Reilly screen savers all crashed :D

Now that is funny.

[acidrock]

now if he was helping BUSH then I would have a problem!

[MacFan26]

The DNC could be celebrating victory while the RNC is still trying to reboot thier PCs after thier Bill O'Reilly screen savers all crashed

Haha, I love it too. Speaking of politics, in that last shareholders meeting someone asked if Apple would be developing voting software in California. Steve said, "Hopefully they won't base it on Windows when they do make one." Haha. :D

[mico]

Love this.

http://www.moveonpac.org/warrecord/

[NusuniAdmin]

Im just saying.....if kerry or bush wins our country is doomed anyways, I think Tux (the linux logo) should run for president :D

Oh wait, tux was not born in america :(

[latergator116]

now if he was helping BUSH then I would have a problem!

I would never be able to buy a mac ever again...

[Gabriel]

Whatever you think of Gore's politics he is an absolutely brilliant man and something of a visionary. He can talk for hours about obscure, but fascinating topics such as how emergent systems can reshape government. Apple is lucky to have him on their board.

I haven't made up my mind about Kerry yet, but I think there's far too much animosity about politics in this country. Why can't smart people talk to each other without people going nuts about it? Jobs has some fascinating ideas about all sorts of things. I remember reading something he wrote ten years ago about reforming education and thinking it was a brilliant idea. Now many ideas that he wrote about then are being implemented all over the country in such places as my hometown of Hartford CT, a VERY troubled school system and they seem to be meeting with success. I'm glad that Kerry is reaching out to Jobs and Buffet. If Kerry is the next President than he'll have some great people as advisors. The problem is that now that Jobs has aligned himself with Kerry, Bush & Co. probably won't touch him, which is their loss, as well as the country's.

[wdlove]

I had admired Warren Buffet, I'm sad to hear of his turn to the left. His opinion that my taxes should be increased is in no way appreciated. My wife and I have greatly benefited from the Bush Tax Cut Plan. We make well below $100,000 as a couple.

I had already head that Steve Jobs was left wing so no surprise there.

My preference would be that they live there own wealthy lives and not desire to tell me how to live my life. My only power with this situation is to pray for them. My life is tied up more with Jesus. Kerry has no power over me, unless God allows him.

[mms]

It's not that big of a deal. It's not like he's openly endorsing him and pushing for Mac users to vote for him or anything. If that were the case, it would be a cause for concern, but that's just his political allegiance. Many people choose candidates to support, and Steve Jobs is just another one of these people. This has nothing to do with him company whatsoever.

[Koodauw]

Well it is good to see people getting involved in politics. I really could careless who the CEO of the maker of computer votes for. I am glad people are seeking Steve's imput. I can only see good to come out of this, regardless of weather he supports Kerry or Bush. Maybe some Macs in the Whitehouse would help Apple out.

[Les Kern]

I had admired Warren Buffet, ... His opinion that my taxes should be increased is in no way appreciated. My wife and I have greatly benefited from the Bush Tax Cut Plan. We make well below $100,000 as a couple.
My preference would be that they live there own wealthy lives and not desire to tell me how to live my life. My only power with this situation is to pray for them. My life is tied up more with Jesus. Kerry has no power over me, unless God allows him.

Let's see... Jesus said that we should all help the least among us, but you don't want to use YOUR money, which you so graciously received via Bush's tax plan.
It has always amazed me to see the right blast people for not being Christians, spouting morality and taking stands that prove THEY are, then turning around and taking money from the people who don't have enough and therefore have no power, and show the morals in their private life that must be making Jesus twirl in his grave. "The Jesus Factor" on PBS last night might be a good show for you to watch, then think about WHY folks do things. It has nothing to do with Jesus, and Jesus has nothing to do with our government.

[Durandal7]

This is getting blown out of proportion. Typical media over-exaggeration. If you read the article you would realize that Jobs is not endorsing or even donating money to Kerry. Kerry's spokesperson implies that John Kerry called Steve Jobs on his cell phone during a limo ride and asked for some friendly advice.

Kerry ``likes to have conversations with different groups on how to get the economy moving and on his deficit and budget plans,'' Wade said. ``If he has an hour car ride, he likes to check in'' with people on economic issues.

I fail to see how this results in Jobs getting pegged as a campaign advisor to Kerry. In fact, I bet that Steve would be willing to offer economic advice to anyone who wants it be it a republican like Arnold or a democrat like John Kerry.

[macphisto]

now if he was helping BUSH then I would have a problem!

A problem with what? Actually doing the right thing then? I see no problem with helping Bush.

[MacAficionado]

Had he given Bush advice on ANYTHING, Bush wouldn't have understood anyway so why bother.

I like Steve even more now!!!

[Krizoitz]

I donno, kinda blows my faith in Apple :( :(

Let's see that's spelled "Windooz"????

Oh wait, Gates is just as much a Dem contributor as well, what will I do???

My guess is Gates donates to both parties. Heck look what the Bush admin did for the anti-trust suit.

[Savage Henry]

Practically everyone in business does it, and the fact that Gore is on the board hardly makes it a mind-blowing surprise.

Sheesh!

The man's a vegan but that hasn't stopped meat-eaters from buying Apples.(Yes, that was a stupid analogy, but I'm not going to give up on the Mac just because Jobs has an opinion on subjects outside of computers).

[Crikey]

I had admired Warren Buffet, I'm sad to hear of his turn to the left. His opinion that my taxes should be increased is in no way appreciated. My wife and I have greatly benefited from the Bush Tax Cut Plan. We make well below $100,000 as a couple.

Your taxes need to be raised because your government spends money it doesn't take in. President Bush has turned a balanced budget into a record deficit in three years. There's where to look to find out why your taxes have to go up. Wars and police states cost money.

What does the Bush administration say about this? "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." (Dick Cheney). In other words, we can borrow and spend all we want, because it won't need to be paid back until we're out of office. For the record, the Reagan/BushI deficit (but not all of the debt) only got erased after eight years of boom under Bill Clinton.

Any good (fiscal) conservative will recognize the irresponsibility of the current Bush administration as a harm to our nation.

Back on topic, what visionary advice will Jobs offer Kerry? "Whatever you do, don't package your campaign in a plastic cube. It just won't sell."


Crikey

[sethypoo]

Kerry's OK by me. I like Steve Jobs, what's the big deal about this?

[alexf]

Oh wait, Gates is just as much a Dem contributor as well, what will I do???

Well thank God! Each penny that goes into supporting the Repbulican agenda is that much worse for the world and humanity in general.

Let us be grateful that at least Steve and Bill have a bit of a heart along with their brains and are putting their money in the right place...

[Dippo]

Well thank God! Each penny that goes into supporting the Repbulican agenda is that much worse for the world and humanity in general.

Let us be grateful that at least Steve and Bill have a bit of a heart along with their brains and are putting their money in the right place...


I think it's about time this thread got moved to the political forum.

I really could careless who Steve Jobs gives time or money too as long as he brings out the next G5 revisions @ 3Ghz :D

Kerry needs all the help he can get. Maybe Steve will introduce him as the Gen 4 iPod and everyone would vote for him :p

[yoda13]

Macs still rule as far as I am concerned. It doesn't matter who has an opinion about what. I buy Apple's because in my opinion they make the best computers. Political leanings don't make a difference. Besides, Republicans can take heart. I read an article while waiting to get a hair cut the other day and apparently Rush Limbaugh is a huge Mac fan and that is all he uses, and Bush's personal computer is also a Mac. The fact that Al Gore is on the board or that Steve might be giving advice to Kerry doesn't keep them from using Macs. Macs are just great computers. We should all use them :D

[eyeon]

now if he was helping BUSH then I would have a problem!

You took the words right out of my mouth...

[Sayhey]

This interesting note from Bloomberg (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aIzb2nc.YIIE&refer=us).

May 1 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Warren Buffett and Apple Computer Inc. co-founder Steve Jobs are advising Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry on economic issues.

Kerry, 60, the four-term Massachusetts senator challenging President George W. Bush, ``reached out to them and they're giving him economic advice about the deficit and job creation,'' said David Wade, Kerry's campaign spokesman.

Not much of a surprise, but interesting nonetheless.

[kuyu]

Just a bit of trivia here.

The Rush Limbaugh show is all mac. Rush has been a mac user since the early days of Apple.

Also, Bill Gates gave money to Bush. But, historically speaking, most fortune 500's donated millions to both candidates so they're owed a favor no matter who wins.

The fact that Steve Jobs is a Democrat has nothing to do with his ability to run Apple. Actually, Jobs certainly does use the corporate tax breaks afforded by LIFO(which is illegal everywhere but America), and the stock options loop hole(they lower Apple's taxable income). I bet he's not a huge fan of the estate tax either. But lower corporate taxes is a right-wing idea, no? Just goes to show you, ideals on paper are a lot different than actual practices in the real world.

Glad that Jobs is involved. More people should be. (and Jobs seems pretty moderate from here) :)

[musicpyrite]

i thought that was just cause big Al invented the internet. http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/blowup.gifhttp://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/mf_pcwhack.gif


I thought he invented pants. :confused: I don't know if this is good, having Steve and Billy boy both democrats, the more they dissagree, the better our computers are. :D

[skunk]

This interesting note from Bloomberg (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aIzb2nc.YIIE&refer=us).



Not much of a surprise, but interesting nonetheless.
Free iTunes song for every Democratic vote? :)

[amnesiac1984]

Free iTunes song for every Democratic vote? :)

Heh, good one skunk. It is interesting that no one is crying special interest hoohaas at this. Is this not just as bad as having Mr Halliburton on your side? Obviously it depends how Kerry uses this special advice, but is he not using special interests as a campaigning point? Or was that just me?

[e-coli]

THANK GOD!!!!

Finally a corporate executive with a conscious!

I knew I liked Steve-o for a reason. :)

[mactastic]

Oh, no! I can't buy mac ever again! :)

Oh and to everyone viewing this thread. It's a good idea not to get political here, either. There is a subforum for that and this ain't it. This is a mac topic as much as anything else so don't ruin it.

Let's see, you start a thread with a politically loaded statement (namely that you can no longer buy macs because of SJs political leanings) then admonish people to not get political? Nice try, but you started it. I guess you just don't want to hear any differing opinions huh.

[Macmaniac]

Its a free country, you can support whoever you want. I'm sure Bush consults people all the time like Steve Forbes, Ken Lay, etc.. and we don't see people make a big deal out of that.

[Rower_CPU]

Threads merged.

The political nature of a discussion always trumps its relation to a current event or Apple - FYI for the future.

[IrishGold]

Its not a big deal at all, but I wouldn't support either of them :p

[IJ Reilly]

And Al Gore is on Apple's board. Still, I am a bit surprised by Jobs' connection with the Kerry campaign. I can't recall another instance of him becoming involved with politics. Have I missed something in the past?

[numediaman]

SJ usually has stayed on the sidelines -- good to see him step up this year. When Bill Gates contributed to Bush last time, Jobs didn't spend a dime.

According to Neighbor Search, Jobs still hasn't contributed to the Kerry campaign. But Gates has already sent his $2000 to Bush, as has Michael Dell.

[pseudobrit]

I'm surprised no one brought up the contrast between this open admission of policy strategy and the way Bush chose to formulate policy (particularly energy policy).

[kylos]

Let's see, you start a thread with a politically loaded statement (namely that you can no longer buy macs because of SJs political leanings) then admonish people to not get political? Nice try, but you started it. I guess you just don't want to hear any differing opinions huh.

Let's see, I included a smilie right after that statement. Maybe I was foolish to think that people would be cabable of understanding that it was only a humorous post. This has nothing to do with differing opinions. If you have a differing opinion and want to share it humorously, go ahead. I was hoping people would refrain from arguing and crack some jokes or something. Be lighthearted about your politics.

I posted this not in the political forum bc I thought it had a wider readership than that forum, since it is apple related and all. It wouldn't have appeared on the front page if I had posted in the political forums. Sorry to anyone who had to read the ensuing drivel bc of that error in judgment.

[kylos]

Threads merged.

The political nature of a discussion always trumps its relation to a current event or Apple - FYI for the future.

Yup. I found that out. :)

[acidrock]

Kerry might not be the best pres. but really, anyone is better than Bush!

[IrishGold]

Kerry might not be the best pres. but really, anyone is better than Bush!


Yup, in this type of situation, its not the best, but the lesser evil.

[Thomas Veil]

Amen to that.

I'd heard before that Buffett was a critic of the Bush tax cuts. That article makes me love him even more.

As for Rush, well...every family has at least one black sheep in it.

I'd love to see Apple add a little bit of liberalism to its programming. Could you imagine Rush opening up iCal and finding that each new day comes with a quotation from Al Gore or Ralph Nader? ;)

[Dippo]

Kerry might not be the best pres. but really, anyone is better than Bush!

Personally I think Nadar would be a better president than Kerry :p

Maybe Jobs can advise Kerry to get rid of all the PCs and go to Macs.

I could see the Oval Office, with a nice shiny Powerbook on the President's Desk :)

[Lyle]

Let's see... Jesus said that we should all help the least among us, but you don't want to use YOUR money, which you so graciously received via Bush's tax plan.Indeed. True, maybe someday, people will be able to contribute directly to organizations that build houses for people that can't afford them (http://www.habitat.org/), help people in the event of disasters (http://www.redcross.org), provide job training and employment services (http://www.goodwill.org) and other chartiable organizations. Until then, it's a good thing we have the U.S. government to responsibly spend that money for us.

[kylos]

Indeed. True, maybe someday, people will be able to contribute directly to organizations that build houses for people that can't afford them (http://www.habitat.org/), help people in the event of disasters (http://www.redcross.org), provide job training and employment services (http://www.goodwill.org) and other chartiable organizations. Until then, it's a good thing we have the U.S. government to responsibly spend that money for us.

I understand what you're saying but I think that's one more area of morality the government shouldn't be forcing on us. If I want to be a skinflint(I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination), then I should have every right to keep every cent I earn and ignore my responsibility. The government, frankly should keep their hands off and let me decide how to appropriate my money. There's less waste that way, and I have the reassurance that my money is being spent according to my moral convictions.

Les I think you might assume that a guy like wdlove is very concerned about helping others with his resources.

[skunk]

I understand what you're saying but I think that's one more area of morality the government shouldn't be forcing on us. If I want to be a skinflint(I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination), then I should have every right to keep every cent I earn and ignore my responsibility. The government, frankly should keep their hands off and let me decide how to appropriate my money. There's less waste that way, and I have the reassurance that my money is being spent according to my moral convictions.
Presumably the corollary of that argument is that the US might have NO defence, NO social services, NO roads and NO environment. It would be too easy to confuse moral convictions with meanness.

[kylos]

Most of those are not moral issues. And I would just as soon get rid of a lot of that bloated crap as it is. Providing for the common defense is one of the key principles of the constitution. Roads are an issue that have had various presidents baffled, and much of the road system in america was originally private or set up by local government. The freeway system was set up well after we'd drifted from our strict constructionism for good (which I think we would do well to visit in moderation). Environment, I think is being viewed more as a national cost and so government interference in that regard has been tolerated somewhat more recently.

You stated that it would be too easy to confuse moral convictions with meanness. Well, what may be viewed as a meanness in our society may be viewed as a moral conviction in another society and vice versa. The question is, what makes something a moral issue or virtue? I like to recommend that people read plato's meno whenever I get into this discussion (google it). I think it brings a healthy perspective to this issue.

[Frohickey]

If Warren Buffet has enough money, why couldn't he write a big one-time check to the Federal government?

[jelloshotsrule]

Personally I think Nadar would be a better president than Kerry :p

who is nadAr? :confused:

[mactastic]

who is nadAr? :confused:

He's a distant relative of dErth vadAr. :cool:

[IrishGold]

who is nader? :confused:


http://www.votenader.org/img/ralph-phillyheadshot.jpg

[Frohickey]

He's a distant relative of dErth vadAr. :cool:

Isn't he the one that invented radAr? :D

[mactastic]

Isn't he the one that invented radAr? :D

No, you're thinking of GAYdar. :eek:

[Sayhey]

I see the spelling police are out in this thread.

[skunk]

I see the spelling police are out in this thread.
I'll see you ladar.

[jelloshotsrule]

I see the spelling police are out in this thread.

when it's a presidential candidate, with a not too complex name mind you, yeah, they are out. ;)

[mrbrown]

Your taxes need to be raised because your government spends money it doesn't take in. President Bush has turned a balanced budget into a record deficit in three years. There's where to look to find out why your taxes have to go up. Wars and police states cost money.

Actually, last time I checked the only reason the budget ever got balanced in the first place was because we had a Republican Congress during the Clinton administration. As I recall, the Democrats actually practically SHUT DOWN Congress when they couldn't get their way with their budget - proving that they're just a bunch of cry babies.

And last time I checked this wasn't a "police state". Want to see a police state? I hear the "Dear Leader" is recruiting - http://www.kcna.co.jp.

What does the Bush administration say about this? "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." (Dick Cheney). In other words, we can borrow and spend all we want, because it won't need to be paid back until we're out of office. For the record, the Reagan/BushI deficit (but not all of the debt) only got erased after eight years of boom under Bill Clinton.

The eight years of "boom" were not Clinton's doing. Any 1st year economic major in even the crappiest colleges of the nation will tell you that. I will concede, however, that H.W. Bush didn't pay attention to the economy after the first Gulf War - but the economic "boom" (was that truly a boom, considering most of the dot-com companies that fueled the boom were doomed for failure anyways?) experienced in Clinton's 8 were not the result of Clinton.

Any good (fiscal) conservative will recognize the irresponsibility of the current Bush administration as a harm to our nation.

The last time I checked, the idea of a balanced budget got thrown out the window because a bunch of Muslim extremists decided to fly planes into buildings...

Back on topic, what visionary advice will Jobs offer Kerry? "Whatever you do, don't package your campaign in a plastic cube. It just won't sell."

Well... I'd actually have to agree with you on that.

[numediaman]

Actually, it was the Republicans that shutdown the government in 1995. And it cost them dearly as Clinton was easily reelected in the Fall.

Congress finally passed Clinton's budget in January 1996. This budget, you will remember, was the one that finally eliminated the deficit and led to the nation's largest surplus.

Of course, that's all gone and we are back to having deficits. But, of course, this is Osama bin Ladin's fault, he introduced the budget and forced the Republicans to pass it. Maybe Sly can come up with a link to a story from one of his web sites that shows ObL forcing Bush to introduce those tax cuts and spending increases.

[bluechair]

I will vote for (not Bush) because I consider him a threat to my way of life. He is a relatively minor threat to my life today because my family is fairly rich, I have a job, I am white, and I am a nobody. I think his policies and his record lead to a future that is not consistent with how I want to live 10-20 years from now.

Bush is the figurehead of a cultural movement that is changing the United States. Movements happen all the time. There are several powerful movements that are struggling for influence in American politics today. I don't want their movement to succeed.

1) Threat to Health and Science
Stem cell research and misrepresentation of science

Resources:
Union of Concerned Scientists
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/index.cfm
"Restoring Scientific Integrity in Policy Making" 1 hour Press Conference
http://www.ucsusa.org/audio/pr/rsipc.mp3
Stacking the bioethics council.
http://www.techcentralstation.com/030104H.html
CNN Stem Cell Summary and links.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/stemcell/

2) Threat to the environment
[Clean air act].

Resources:
Kucinich talks about jobs and the environment. Counterpoint to Bush.
http://kucinich.us/talksabout/oil-talksabout.php
http://resources.kucinich.us/video/video/oregon/environment_quick_broadban.html

3) Threat to Peace and Security
Uses fear to sway public opinion. War in Iraq. Mislead everyone.

Resources:
"Boom" 10 million people protest the War in Iraq
http://www.sonymusic.com/artists/SystemOfADown/Videos/BOOMVidFull.ram
A War needs International Legitimacy. General Schwarzkopf.
http://www.ericblumrich.com/wmf/Schwartzkopf.WMV
The world is less stable after 4 years of Bush's leadership.
http://bushflash.com/pax.html

4) Threat to American Image
Bush has really pissed off the whole world.
Americans are not seen as "the good guys" anymore.
China fears the "Bush Doctrine".
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/china/page.cfm?pageID=1231

5) Threat to Political Integrity
Hypocritical attacks of opponents. Twisted patriotism. AWOL,

Resources:
Bush campaigns against Kerry's war record.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=16879
Kerry fought in Vietnam, Bush was AWOL.
http://www.moveonpac.org/warrecord/

6) Threat to Religious Freedom
Christian fundamentalist. Federally funded faith-based (only christian) programs. Harmful to separation of church and state. Thinks that those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior are eternally damned. The danger of this is that he might not really care what happens to us that are already damned.

7) Threat to Civil Liberties
PATRIOT ACT!

Resources:
Kucinich talks about the Patriot Act.
http://kucinich.us/talksabout/PATRIOTact-talksabout.php
http://resources.kucinich.us/video/video/oregon/patriot_act_quick_broadban.html
Truman: We will not turn into a right wing totalitarian country.
http://www.ericblumrich.com/wmf/Truman.WMV

8) Threat to Fair Elections
"Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." - Joseph Stalin

Bush stole Florida and hence the Presidency. Kartherine Harris was directly responsible for disenfranchising 50,000 voters. (Bush won by 500 votes.) The disenfranchisement targeted blacks. Many are still not allowed to vote. Their right to vote has been taken away.

The inner working of electronic voting machines are kept secret. They have a long history of horribly miscounting votes. Elections results have been reversed many times after being hand counted. The book "Black Box Voting" by Bev Harris is the best accounting of miscount precedents.

Resources:
"Grand Theft America"
http://bushflash.com/gta.html
"Theft of the Presidency" 13 minute segment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram
"Florida Fights Backs"
http://www.yarock.com4/realaudio/Florida_fights_back_256.ram
Evidence Bush stole the election.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/billpress.column/
Voters remain disenfranchised. The HAVA Act could make every state like this.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=327&row=0
Investigation by New York Times. Bush stole the election.
http://members.tripod.com/~reno4governor/index-20.html
"Theft of the Presidency" columns by Greg Palast
http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=1&subject_name=Theft%20of%20Presidency
Has examples of weird electronic voting republican wins
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=259&row=2
Excellent site with overview of entire electronic voting problem. Full book in PDF.
http://blackboxvoting.org/
Collection of e-voting links
http://www.bookbeast.com/evote001.html

9) Threat to a "Classless" society
Heavy push toward concentration of wealth.
Tax cuts to rich.
Marshall Brain's Blog on Wealth Concentration
http://concentrationofwealth.blogspot.com/

10) Threat to Corporate Accountability
Let corporate scandals go. Enron. WorldCom. Enron was full of his (cheney's?) buddies.
http://www.gregpalast.com./detail.cfm?artid=211&row=4[B]

[mactastic]

Actually, last time I checked the only reason the budget ever got balanced in the first place was because we had a Republican Congress during the Clinton administration. As I recall, the Democrats actually practically SHUT DOWN Congress when they couldn't get their way with their budget - proving that they're just a bunch of cry babies.

So if I could show you that the GOP shut down the government would you call them a bunch of 'cry babies'? Somehow I doubt it. And before you get too far off into your revisionist history 'lesson' you might want to check your facts.

The eight years of "boom" were not Clinton's doing. Any 1st year economic major in even the crappiest colleges of the nation will tell you that. I will concede, however, that H.W. Bush didn't pay attention to the economy after the first Gulf War - but the economic "boom" (was that truly a boom, considering most of the dot-com companies that fueled the boom were doomed for failure anyways?) experienced in Clinton's 8 were not the result of Clinton.

So you would also agree that GWB should not be running on the strength of the economy today right?

The last time I checked, the idea of a balanced budget got thrown out the window because a bunch of Muslim extremists decided to fly planes into buildings...

So how long is that rule in effect? If Kerry is elected will you whine about budgets out of balance, or will you steadfastly remind us that the Muslim extremists forced us to abandon sound fiscal policy?

[numediaman]

If Kerry is elected will you whine about budgets out of balance, or will you steadfastly remind us that the Muslim extremists forced us to abandon sound fiscal policy?

Not to contradict you, mactastic, but it is extremist Muslim accountants that are destroying America.

[Frohickey]

Of course, that's all gone and we are back to having deficits. But, of course, this is Osama bin Ladin's fault, he introduced the budget and forced the Republicans to pass it. Maybe Sly can come up with a link to a story from one of his web sites that shows ObL forcing Bush to introduce those tax cuts and spending increases.

You know, you could always send an extra check to the IRS made payable to Deficit Reduction. No one is stopping you from writing an extra check out.

[Neserk]

Not to contradict you, mactastic, but it is extremist Muslim accountants that are destroying America.

:confused: sarcastic?

[mactastic]

You know, you could always send an extra check to the IRS made payable to Deficit Reduction.

So could you...