US losing its dominance in the sciences

[Ugg]

he United States has started to lose its worldwide dominance in critical areas of science and innovation, according to federal and private experts who point to strong evidence like prizes awarded to Americans and the number of papers in major professional journals.

One area of international competition involves patents. Americans still win large numbers of them, but the percentage is falling as foreigners, especially Asians, have become more active and in some fields have seized the innovation lead. The United States' share of its own industrial patents has fallen steadily over the decades and now stands at 52 percent.

A more concrete decline can be seen in published research. Physical Review, a series of top physics journals, recently tracked a reversal in which American papers, in two decades, fell from the most to a minority. Last year the total was just 29 percent, down from 61 percent in 1983.

China, said Martin Blume, the journals' editor, has surged ahead by submitting more than 1,000 papers a year. "Other scientific publishers are seeing the same kind of thing," he added.

Another downturn centers on the Nobel Prizes, an icon of scientific excellence. Traditionally, the United States, powered by heavy federal investments in basic research, the kind that pursues fundamental questions of nature, dominated the awards.

But the American share, after peaking from the 1960's through the 1990's, has fallen in the 2000's to about half, 51 percent. The rest went to Britain, Japan, Russia, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland and New Zealand.

NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/science/03RESE.html?ex=1084161600&en=88b4555287a5fd0c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

I've stated here before that the key to the US' success is continual innovation. gw & co. have chosen to rely on what is known rather than what is unknown. From massive subsidies to the oil industry rather than alternative sources to NASA, he is failing us. Whether you believe that it is a gw problem or not, the fact is that we are failing to continue to innovate and this can only lead to the death of the American experiment.

[IrishGold]

China, said Martin Blume, the journals' editor, has surged ahead by submitting more than 1,000 papers a year. "Other scientific publishers are seeing the same kind of thing," he added.

Im suprized the Chinese have't caught up already. The values those parents have and the pressure they put on their kids is crazy, hehe.

[SlyHunter]

Standardize testing to make sure teachers are actually teaching what they are suppose to be teaching could be helpful.

[IrishGold]

Standardize testing to make sure teachers are actually teaching what they are suppose to be teaching could be helpful.

Already exist and doesn't help, hehe.

[zimv20]

I've stated here before that the key to the US' success is continual innovation.
i'll add that this is an inevitable result of the aversion people in this country seem to have to math and science. imo, it goes beyond education and to culture.

certainly, there are some incrediby bright and clever americans who are great at tech. but my anecdotal experience shows a woeful lack of basic concepts of science and how numbers work.

c.f. the silly uproar over the random number 666 being generated on ticket stubs for Last Temptation of Christ.

[Desertrat]

It is my understanding that the majority of those who seek degrees in the sciences and engineering are foreign born.

I've recently read that China has some 500,000 graduates per year with degrees in science and engineering.

Some 50,000 U.S. students are involved in science fairs each year. In China, it's some six million.

Any questions?

'Rat

[amnesiac1984]

Standardize testing to make sure teachers are actually teaching what they are suppose to be teaching could be helpful.

I think standardized testing is the wrong way to go, far away from the right way, teachers just need to be given a basic idea of what they are supposed to be teaching and as long as they meet some requirements then fine, testing only screws up pupils, pupils are already taught the answers to questions instead of how to reason towards those answers. Personally, and I've said this before on here, but I believe kids should be taught to think right, they should be taught to be individuals which will in turn encourage them to learn something they are interested in, of course popular culture has a lot to answer for too!

[skunk]

I think standardized testing is the wrong way to go, far away from the right way, teachers just need to be given a basic idea of what they are supposed to be teaching and as long as they meet some requirements then fine, testing only screws up pupils, pupils are already taught the answers to questions instead of how to reason towards those answers. Personally, and I've said this before on here, but I believe kids should be taught to think right, they should be taught to be individuals which will in turn encourage them to learn something they are interested in, of course popular culture has a lot to answer for too!
Hear Hear! That's why we taught our kids at home :)

[amnesiac1984]

Hear Hear! That's why we taught our kids at home :)

Well done skunk, that sounds like an achievement. I might have to think about doing that if I have the time when i have kids and if schools haven't changed dramatically by then! If you don't mind me asking and I know this is off topic, but how old are your kids? And how have you managed to teach them (and do you think you have done it well)?, and what about their peers (ie, how do they meet other kids if not at school)?

[skunk]

If you don't mind me asking and I know this is off topic, but how old are your kids? And how have you managed to teach them (and do you think you have done it well)?, and what about their peers (ie, how do they meet other kids if not at school)?
Not at all: son and daughter, 30 and 28! We taught them history, geography, latin(!), french, physics, maths, woodwork, ceramics, metalwork, art and much else, with some help from friends. I'm sure they had a much broader education than they would have at school. They socialised well, with friends' kids, and friends from the school they both attended before we went it alone (with their agreement, of course!).
The local council can be a total pain about home education, depending where you are, but ours was supportive, if somewhat detached. A single inspection was all we got, but they were so impressed when the children engaged them in an in-depth discussion of fusion power that they hardly bothered us after that!
It's great if you can find the time. :)

[pseudobrit]

It is my understanding that the majority of those who seek degrees in the sciences and engineering are foreign born.

I've recently read that China has some 500,000 graduates per year with degrees in science and engineering.

Some 50,000 U.S. students are involved in science fairs each year. In China, it's some six million.

Any questions?

What are the rates per capita? China is home to some 1,200,000,000 people.

[skunk]

What are the rates per capita? China is home to some 1,200,000,000 people.
Well, very approximately, 5 times the population, 120 times the attendance (per capita)...

(edited for crap math)
(and clarity) :rolleyes:

[IrishGold]

Some 50,000 U.S. students are involved in science fairs each year. In China, it's some six million.

Any questions?

'Rat


Yea, where did you find that number?

Seems completely wrong.

[Dippo]

This doesn't surprise me. The large majority of the students in my graduate engineering program are not from the US, and are here on student visas. Most of them plan to return home after they get their degree.

I feel like plenty of Americans are going to college but most are getting degrees in stuff other than engr, science, or math.

Wildlife Management anyone?

[Desertrat]

It's worse than that, skunk. It's only four times the population, roughly. (U.S. is right at 300 million.) So, on a per capita basis for participation in science fairs, the Chinese are ahead by some 30:1. That's scary.

My first wife was "den mother" to a bunch of grad students at a major university's computer science department. A large percentage of those seeking advanced degrees were from either India or Japan, but mostly from India. This was from mid-1970s onward. At that time, those from India who got PhDs stayed here--but this seems to have changed. SFAIK, most of the Japanese returned home.

From various articles over the last several years, it is more common for the native-born to major in Liberal Arts than in the Sciences; the money-minded go into BusAd or Law.

'Rat

[skunk]

Wildlife Management anyone?
Plenty of openings in the White House for that, I think...

[numediaman]

Why create scientists when what we really want are soldiers? I think we should shut down the universities right now and get these slackers off to boot camp. (Do you feel a "draft" comin' on?)

[skunk]

A large percentage of those seeking advanced degrees were from either India or Japan, but mostly from India. This was from mid-1970s onward. At that time, those from India who got PhDs stayed here--but this seems to have changed.
'Rat
I notice that the next generation of Intel processors are not only going to be fabbed in India, but designed there too.

[skunk]

(Do you feel a "draft" comin' on?)
Shut that door!

[Dippo]

I notice that the next generation of Intel processors are not only going to be fabbed in India, but designed there too.


That is correct, here is the article on that:
New Xeon unearthed as Intel's first all-India chip (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/01/intel_whitefield_uncovered/)

[pinto32]

We could have been making a comeback in biotech right now, but the voices inside GW's head told him that stem cells are bad.......and to burn things :rolleyes:


**The current Pentium M was designed in Jeruselum, and that is where the next low-power core is also be designed

[Dippo]

We could have been making a comeback in biotech right now, but the voices inside GW's head told him that stem cells are bad.......and to burn things :rolleyes:

Too bad, I was looking forward to cloning an army of soliders to take over the world. :D

**The current Pentium M was designed in Jeruselum, and that is where the next low-power core is also be designed

Say what you want about Intel, but the Pentium M is a nice chip...now why couldn't we design something like that over here???

[IrishGold]

Say what you want about Intel, but the Pentium M is a nice chip...now why couldn't we design something like that over here???


We could, but I'm sure its all about the $$, outsourcing, ect.

[mactastic]

1. In order to leave no child behind you have to slow the process down and teach to the bottom of the class.

2. The tenure system sucks. Pay for performance is much better. How to measure performance is another matter...

[Desertrat]

mac, you're dead on with your first point. My mother was a Teaching Assistant while she worked on her PhD in Psych, back in the '30s. (She got her doctorate in '42, teaching until her Fulbright Professorship in 1949.)

She figured out that she could teach for a good while to the "average", without overly boring the bright ones or losing the slows. She'd vary the pace, sometimes teaching to the best students so she wouldn't lose them to boredom and create a lack of future interest. She'd not spend much time at the slowest pace, since, after all this was a university and Devil take the hindmost.

In our public schools, K-12, teaching to the LCD means problems for the bright kids. Boredom leads to all manner of mischief, among other things. (Not that I'd know about that, of course. :D )

Tenure at the college/university level makes sense, as to academic freedom in publishing one's opinions or otherwise being outspoken with respect to political issues. It seems to me that in the world of K-12, this sort of protection isn't really needed.

In Texas, now, a teacher must have a degree in the subject which is taught. Merely an Education degree won't cut it. That's improved the quality of teachers quite a bit.

'Rat

[mactastic]

Yeah, when you gotta teach to the bottom of the class to avoid a federal takeover of your school is it any wonder that the top kids are losing out?

Also, culturally our society puts far more value on extra-curricular activities that are athletic in nature over those that are scholastic in nature. Our schools reflect this bias. When was the last time a new stadium got built for the Academic Decathalon crowd?

Tenure just seems like a bad idea to me. Perhaps at the college level, as you suggest 'Rat, it may be necessary to protect the free speech rights of professors. However having just finished college myself, I saw a whole lot of professors 'coasting' to retirement. Not only does this stifle classroom learning, but it prevents another more energetic teacher from being hired. This problem is also quite evident at the primary and secondary levels. I'd prefer to see some other form of protection of the right of free speech of a teacher than tenure. Some kind of review board to decide if a firing is motivated by differences in politics or some other legitimate reason would be fine by me.

Knowing you will get paid the same amount for working your butt off as the flake down the hall that the kids all hate is a poor motivator for a teacher to really stand out. The only motivator is your love for the kids or the job itself, and you can't eat love. How many people in 'the real world' would push themselves to excel if they knew it wouldn't get them any more money?

I know my wife would gladly give up the opportunity for tenure if it meant she could compete for higher wages.

[SlyHunter]

1. In order to leave no child behind you have to slow the process down and teach to the bottom of the class.

2. The tenure system sucks. Pay for performance is much better. How to measure performance is another matter...
I like Germany's self paced system. Children who can do better should be allowed to learn at their own pace. Children who can't and need extra help are left behind to get that extra help. Problem is who should pay for the ones that are left behind. And yes some people will have problems with my saying "left behind" however you cannot allow our country or our children be held back from being all they can be because of those who can't keep up.

[professor]

It may also have to do with fingerprinting and picture taking upon immigration that fewer and fewer numbers of foreign students wish to come to the U.S. for an exchange semester, a Master or Ph.D. degree... They go elsewhere now. America always depended on foreign talent.

[mactastic]

Dubya thinks you can save them all. In fact he says that if you don't you are a 'failing school' and the feds will step in and take it over.

[SlyHunter]

It may also have to do with fingerprinting and picture taking upon immigration that fewer and fewer numbers of foreign students wish to come to the U.S. for an exchange semester, a Master or Ph.D. degree... They go elsewhere now. America always depended on foreign talent.
They are scared away because of fingerprinting?
Wow. I don't think I've ever gone more than a couple of years without being fingerprinted for something and none of them were crime related. For example try cashing a check at a bank that you are not a member of.

[mactastic]

I haven't been fingerprinted since I was a kid and my parents did it so they could identify my body should the worst happen. Of course the cops got a copy of it....

[IrishGold]

I haven't been fingerprinted since I was a kid and my parents did it so they could identify my body should the worst happen. Of course the cops got a copy of it....

Never had to when you got your driver's license?

[ethernet76]

Standardize testing to make sure teachers are actually teaching what they are suppose to be teaching could be helpful.

Maybe No Child Left Behind wasn't a big enough failure. How could politicians believe that a national level testing scheme would be good? But apparently the NEA doesn't matter, even though they lauded the NOLB act it was still signed in. Maybe we should look to douchebag's home state, Texas. Maybe they're 48th in education for a reason. The standarized testing done at the state level?

I got a good education, without standarized testing.

Also is there room in the standarized testing for evolution? After all it goes against the bible, and god forbid they didn't know it all 2500 years ago.

[zimv20]

Also, culturally our society puts far more value on extra-curricular activities that are athletic in nature over those that are scholastic in nature. Our schools reflect this bias. When was the last time a new stadium got built for the Academic Decathalon crowd?
that's very much a sore spot for me.

in HS, i ran track and cross-country, played some football, but was also on the speech and debate team and the science club.

for my efforts in sports, i was offered a parking spot in the teachers' lot (which i turned down).

when the speech and debate team tried to implement a "letter" system, much like in sports, there was an uproar. even the principal sides w/ athletics and contacted the local sports shops and told them not to sell letter jackets to academics.

my friend was the editor of the paper. he wrote an editorial decrying such tactics and received threats.

there is a serious anti-intellectual bent in the US, plus a serious lack of curiosity. *this* is the reason the educational system here is in trouble -- it's systemic to our society. it's also the main reason i'm predicting doom for this country. our cultural LCD is cars, TV, and winning. it can't sustain us.

/rant

[Desertrat]

professor, I doubt it's such as photos and fingerprints. More likely the specificity of a given type of study; if you can get a decent-quality bachelor's degree near your home, why travel? The money aspect has got to be important...

Special studies in doctoral or post-doc arenas are a whole different matter.

Anybody who's been in the military; some states' drivers' licenses; anybody with a handgun permit; any federal employees with a security clearance: These, among many others, have their photos and prints on file, somewhere.

[mactastic]

So you like the German education system huh Sly? 'Cause you can't get that here with our tax structure.... Just a thought.

[ethernet76]

If the Palestinians don't bomb it out of existence first.

So you've finally shown yourself. A racist. First off all Palestinians aren't homicide bombers.

Most just want jobs, hospitials, an education. The only problem is, Israel isn't providing any of this. It is all coming from Hamas. Israel is pretty much South Africa circa the 1970s. Palestinians aren't allowed to do crap. They were forced out of their homes into refugee camps.

While I think both sides have their problems, it is irresponsible to stereotype based a group of people based soley on the actions of a few radicals.

[pseudobrit]

So you've finally shown yourself. A racist.

Worse, he's a proponent of genocide.

[pseudobrit]

that's very much a sore spot for me.

in HS, i ran track and cross-country, played some football, but was also on the speech and debate team and the science club.

for my efforts in sports, i was offered a parking spot in the teachers' lot (which i turned down).

when the speech and debate team tried to implement a "letter" system, much like in sports, there was an uproar. even the principal sides w/ athletics and contacted the local sports shops and told them not to sell letter jackets to academics.

my friend was the editor of the paper. he wrote an editorial decrying such tactics and received threats.

there is a serious anti-intellectual bent in the US, plus a serious lack of curiosity. *this* is the reason the educational system here is in trouble -- it's systemic to our society. it's also the main reason i'm predicting doom for this country. our cultural LCD is cars, TV, and winning. it can't sustain us.

/rant

Wonderful post. I've read studies about how this problem is more severe amongst minority (black, specifically) populations, where academic excellence is met with open scorn.
I was influenced by it somewhat in my small, river-town Catholic elementary school. I remember my first "B"; the cool kids congratulated me and I felt less excluded after that.

It is systemic; our shameless, amoral capitalist bent has taught us that all conflicts are external. We don't need to be the best we can be, we only need to be better than the "competition." And since anything goes, it's much easier to drag the others in your class down than pull yourself up in relation to your own capabilities. Smart kids make the average and dumb kids look bad, so the majority of the class will do anything possible to lower the playing field rather than improve themselves.

I forsee a drop in international students coming here to study. There are better or equal universities now in their own and other, less immigrant-hostile countries.

[IIvan]

I totally agre with you guys that the education system needs to be reformed. I think that standardized teaching just leads to teaching the test, not comprehension. In school, I have always been tought the answers, not so much how to get them or why (math excluded).

In school, you are tought not to think about the why of things, but to remember facts and names. You are not tought why was the civil war fought, but what years, and who were the generals. You are not tought the concepts and relationships between numbers in math, but how to get the answer. You are given a narrow clear piece of knowledge instead of a broad understanding. I would really like to see an education system where grade was based on thoughtfulness and intelligence rather than just answers to a test. Where useful knowledge could be gleaned instead of figures memorized.

[zimv20]

I would really like to see an education system where grade was based on thoughtfulness and intelligence rather than just answers to a test. Where useful knowledge could be gleaned instead of figures memorized.
isnt' that what montessori schools are like? i don't have any friends who went to one (that's not by design :-) but my neighbor's daughter goes.

[professor]

professor, I doubt it's such as photos and fingerprints. More likely the specificity of a given type of study; if you can get a decent-quality bachelor's degree near your home, why travel? The money aspect has got to be important...

Special studies in doctoral or post-doc arenas are a whole different matter.

Anybody who's been in the military; some states' drivers' licenses; anybody with a handgun permit; any federal employees with a security clearance: These, among many others, have their photos and prints on file, somewhere.

What if you, as an American citizen, go to Germany, or Brasil, or Cuba, and they want to take your fingerprints and pictures, they force your airlines to disclose all your personal data as well as credit card info and what not to those foreign authorities: would you still find that O.K.?
is it so difficult for you to put yourself in the position of a foreign visitor who is submitted to all of this, and more?
Oh I forgot, you're not even allowed to travel to Cuba...

[SlyHunter]

So you've finally shown yourself. A racist. First off all Palestinians aren't homicide bombers.

Most just want jobs, hospitials, an education. The only problem is, Israel isn't providing any of this. It is all coming from Hamas. Israel is pretty much South Africa circa the 1970s. Palestinians aren't allowed to do crap. They were forced out of their homes into refugee camps.

While I think both sides have their problems, it is irresponsible to stereotype based a group of people based soley on the actions of a few radicals.
1. Bull I never said "all" Palestinians were terrorists. But I don't waste time talking about the ones that aren't cuzz they aint the ones causing the problems except by doing nothing about their own people. Not policing their own etc.
2. Why should Israel provide hospitals, education for another country. Palestine should provide that for themselves. It is not Israels job to do it for them.

It is up to the Palestinians to arrest, confinel, and extinguish Hamas members. Psuedobrit took something I said to mean something I didn't. Had he not ignored me afterwards he would've known that. I meant the complete destruction of organizations such as Hamas if that is what it took. ie Hamas said no peace with an Israel in the Middle East. So I say solution kill Hamas members until they change their mind about that fact or there are no Hamas members left.

[professor]

[...]
I forsee a drop in international students coming here to study. There are better or equal universities now in their own and other, less immigrant-hostile countries.

This is already the case. It has been my personal experience for a year or so, and you can read it at:

www.aaas.org/spp/post911/visas/

[SlyHunter]

I totally agre with you guys that the education system needs to be reformed. I think that standardized teaching just leads to teaching the test, not comprehension. In school, I have always been tought the answers, not so much how to get them or why (math excluded).

In school, you are tought not to think about the why of things, but to remember facts and names. You are not tought why was the civil war fought, but what years, and who were the generals. You are not tought the concepts and relationships between numbers in math, but how to get the answer. You are given a narrow clear piece of knowledge instead of a broad understanding. I would really like to see an education system where grade was based on thoughtfulness and intelligence rather than just answers to a test. Where useful knowledge could be gleaned instead of figures memorized.
2+2=4 how is that memorization. The tests are suppose to insure they teach what they are suppose to teach how else can they figure that out. How else can they figure out whether you really know algebra (for example) if they don't test you on it. A test the teacher does not control. A test the teacher doesn't have the ability to write the answers up on the chalk board so everyone in the classroom gets them right (I had that happen in one class before they used outside testers). You should be taught the concepts and relationships between numbers in math and how to get the answer. Then you would be able to ace that part of the test.

My problem is that some classes grade based on your opinion not your ability and that is wrong. A standardized test grades based on your ability not your opinion.

[Neserk]

I like Germany's self paced system. Children who can do better should be allowed to learn at their own pace. Children who can't and need extra help are left behind to get that extra help.


agreed. Apparently the US is unusual in its age/grade hypersensitivity. Here, holding a child back a grade is an almost guarantee that they will drop out before graduating from high school. Apparently not so in other countries. The problem is (in my guesstimation) that we attach such a negative lable to being retained that the child is set up to feel like a failure and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.


Problem is who should pay for the ones that are left behind. And yes some people will have problems with my saying "left behind" however you cannot allow our country or our children be held back from being all they can be because of those who can't keep up.

I don't think it is a matter of keeping up or not it is a matter of recognizing that different children mature at different rates. Some can read at 4 others not until 9. The child who can read at 4 should be nurtured to read at 4. The child who isn't there until 9 should be nurtured to read at 9. You see the same thing in Algebra. Some can start at 14 actually understanding it. Others are 18 or 19 before they can get a handle on it. We are way to caught up in expecting everyone to develop at exactly the same age. I'm surprised they haven't started giving hormone treatments to kids who are late bloomers when it comes to puberty...

[Neserk]

. I would really like to see an education system where grade was based on thoughtfulness and intelligence rather than just answers to a test. Where useful knowledge could be gleaned instead of figures memorized.

I would like to see grades done away with. We should simply be marking rather or not a child has mastered a certain skill. Grades are so subjective anyway and you have to fall in line with being able to take a test and get everything right the first time in order to get that A.

[Neserk]

They are scared away because of fingerprinting?
Wow. I don't think I've ever gone more than a couple of years without being fingerprinted for something and none of them were crime related. For example try cashing a check at a bank that you are not a member of.


I was first fingerprinted when I was 18 and worked for a security company monitoring alarms on the graveyard shift... then after college when I became a nanny, then when I worked for a foster care agency when I was in my mid twenties and again when I was in my early 30's when I worked for a photography company and again in my early 30's when I started teaching... lots of fingerprinting. I like the livescan better, less messy!

[Neserk]

A standardized test grades based on your ...


... ability to take that test. There are many different styles of learning. So far 8 distinct ones have been identified. Only one or two of those styles can demonstrate what they know through a standardized test.

[amnesiac1984]

They are scared away because of fingerprinting?
Wow. I don't think I've ever gone more than a couple of years without being fingerprinted for something and none of them were crime related. For example try cashing a check at a bank that you are not a member of.

it sounds normal to you because you are used to it, that's how civil liberties are destroyed. Over here in free europe that kind of stuff smacks of a police state way too much! :p

[takao]

I was first fingerprinted when I was 18 and worked for a security company monitoring alarms on the graveyard shift... then after college when I became a nanny, then when I worked for a foster care agency when I was in my mid twenties and again when I was in my early 30's when I worked for a photography company and again in my early 30's when I started teaching... lots of fingerprinting. I like the livescan better, less messy!

sorry but this sound just like some bad movie...you really have to give your fingerprints away when applying to a job of a teacher ? this just sound sureal...

you literary have to put your fingerprints on a piece of paper ?

isn't there something like a official "Leumundszeugnis" (babelfish translate it to "Certificate of good behaviour") which you can get from the police/former job and show them that you weren't a criminal/behave correctly at the job in the past ?

i guess i just misunderstund this :confused:

[SlyHunter]

... ability to take that test. There are many different styles of learning. So far 8 distinct ones have been identified. Only one or two of those styles can demonstrate what they know through a standardized test.
Yet that is the only way I know of to find a pattern and discover a bad teacher that needs to be gotten rid of. Otherwise they get their tenure and no matter how bad they are they are there.

[Neserk]

Yet that is the only way I know of to find a pattern and discover a bad teacher that needs to be gotten rid of. Otherwise they get their tenure and no matter how bad they are they are there.


I think you are missing something here. The test doesn't show a bad teacher. It shows students who usually come from low income homes. If you want to see if a teacher is good or not then you have to observed them teaching. If you want to find bad teachers have people go into the classroom as "student teachers" and you'll be able to find all the bad ones you want.

The sad reality is that people who are bad at their professions stay in their jobs all the time. Look at George.

[Neserk]

sorry but this sound just like some bad movie...you really have to give your fingerprints away when applying to a job of a teacher ? this just sound sureal...

you literary have to put your fingerprints on a piece of paper ?

isn't there something like a official "Leumundszeugnis" (babelfish translate it to "Certificate of good behaviour") which you can get from the police/former job and show them that you weren't a criminal/behave correctly at the job in the past ?

i guess i just misunderstund this :confused:

Yes. They do a background check to make sure I haven't committed any crimes...

[SlyHunter]

I think you are missing something here. The test doesn't show a bad teacher. It shows students who usually come from low income homes. If you want to see if a teacher is good or not then you have to observed them teaching. If you want to find bad teachers have people go into the classroom as "student teachers" and you'll be able to find all the bad ones you want.

The sad reality is that people who are bad at their professions stay in their jobs all the time. Look at George.
You can compare a class score with other classes in the same school to get a determining factor of how the teachers compare to one another. To prevent a teacher from getting fired from having the bad luck of one really bad class you also don't fire after the first year. You give it a couple of years to demonstrate a pattern and compare that teacher classes scores with other teacher scores in the same school then fire the worst ones. This gives incentive to all the others who still have their jobs to do better. Oh and reward the best ones. ie Carrot and the Stick.

Then you compare school to school but in this comparison teachers don't get fired. However I'm not so sure vouchers are just a great answer either. You get a voucher for your kid it is not the full value of how much it cost for your kid. Therefore removing your kid to a private school with that voucher actually means that particular school now has more money per student. In otherwards they are rewarded. Now if more money was the answer it makes it easier for the school to pass the following year. As principle I would be tempted to fail on purpose so that I could have more money per student next year.

[Desertrat]

Professor, Takao, the pro-gun folks over here liken what's been happening to our freedoms as the "Boiling Frog" incrementalism. If you were to toss a frog into boiling water, he'd jump out immediately. If you put him in cool water and heat it slowly to the boiling point, he'd acclimate until it was too late.

If one looked at our structure of laws in 1940, and went from there to 2004 in one move, there would be an instant revolution. Numerous people believe that the changes in our educational system would be a leading instigator of such a revolution. Only a "worst enemy" would do that to us.

People speak of the power of a computerized central data base. Right now, ours is mostly decentralized, so whatever's on record in one is invisible to some other. That's why it's almost impossible for one to acquire such a thing as a Leumundszeugnis. Nobody believes anything said when it comes from another jurisdiction, absent "hard copy" such as a signed letter. The closest to such a thing is a Concealed Handgun License. Acquiring one means proving you're indeed a "Good Guy", so I don't have to wait around for an FBI background check when I buy a gun. Also, if a cop stops me for, say, speeding, he's more likely to write a warning than an actual ticket--I'm by definition a Good Guy.

But, yeah, I could go to Cuba. First to Mexico, though, and I'd expect no penalty upon returning.

'Rat

[pinto32]

If the Palestinians don't bomb it out of existence first.

The Palestinians are bombing George Bush's head?!? :p

[pinto32]

ummm...Slyhunter.....I hate to break it to you, but there is no such country as Palestine....seriously, look at a map...not there, just a 2X sized-Israel....so it is Israel's responsibility, as it has annexed the people and the territory of Palestine.


...I'm starting to get the feeling that if you had things your way, 2+2 would equal 5.......

[SlyHunter]

ummm...Slyhunter.....I hate to break it to you, but there is no such country as Palestine....seriously, look at a map...not there, just a 2X sized-Israel....so it is Israel's responsibility, as it has annexed the people and the territory of Palestine.


...I'm starting to get the feeling that if you had things your way, 2+2 would equal 5.......
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/histisrl.gif
According to this map you are correct.

This is the supposed proposed map that everyone wants Israel to go back to 1967 borders. If you look at it you'll see indefensible borders.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/atlas/maps/west_bank.gif

This use to be the link to the map that they use in the Palestine education system but somebody went and deleted it and I didn't download a copy.
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1933604
It shows the entire area as Palestine with Israel out in the ocean. Makes it hard to show evidence when people keep deleting it.

Then I guess you don't happen to have a problem with Israel building a wall down the middle of its own country?

[Neserk]

You can compare a class score with other classes in the same school to get a determining factor of how the teachers compare to one another. To prevent a teacher from getting fired from having the bad luck of one really bad class you also don't fire after the first year. You give it a couple of years to demonstrate a pattern and compare that teacher classes scores with other teacher scores in the same school then fire the worst ones. This gives incentive to all the others who still have their jobs to do better. Oh and reward the best ones. ie Carrot and the Stick.

Once again. The test is not meant to measure what a teacher has taught. It is meant to measure what the child has learned. I can explain to you in 100 different way how to use a ruler and you probably can do it. But chances are when you are 8 years old and you get to a test where you have to use a ruler you'll screw it up. Why? Because you are taking a test. So I've taught you (I've done my job). You actually learned the skill. (You've done your job) but you have a test that produces high anxiety and you can't show the state you know the skill. So, it appears that (according to what they claim these tests are showing) that I didn't do my job. When in fact not only did I do my job you did your job, you just don't test well.


Then you compare school to school but in this comparison teachers don't get fired.


I will say your idea is *better* than what is done.


However I'm not so sure vouchers are just a great answer either. You get a voucher for your kid it is not the full value of how much it cost for your kid. Therefore removing your kid to a private school with that voucher actually means that particular school now has more money per student. In otherwards they are rewarded. Now if more money was the answer it makes it easier for the school to pass the following year. As principle I would be tempted to fail on purpose so that I could have more money per student next year.

NOt quite that simple.

I went to a child's home to do a home visit. He was a 1st grader. Struggling at reading. Guess what? He had 2 books. No wonder he couldn't read! It isn't just about money at school it is about what happens at home from birth until they start school and then what happens once they come home from school.

Schools are paid X amount of dollars for each child in class on any given day. That is why we tell parents to bring their kids to school even if they are "not feeling well" In most cases they just need to get moving. Occasionally they are really sick and we send them home. This way they all count on the attendance and the school gets paid for them. A child that is enrolled in another school or homeschooled doesn't benefit public schools in anyway. The school doesn't get paid by the gov't for that child.

[professor]

The title of this thread is "US losing its dominance in the sciences". Two subjects are being discussed here, and the thread jumps back and forth.
One issue is the foreign students' recent lack of interest in coming to the U.S., due to the U.S. evolution towards what to us Europeans looks like a police state system - something we have been burned with once too often and learned to meet with disgust and aversion.

The other issue is what you perceive as beeing a deficient educational system in your country.
We here in old Europe also have quarrels with our school systems, but I think it's not the systems, it's the values.
I remember a study done in the U.S. some 10 or 15 years ago. Unfortunately, I don't have the source. The researchers were wondering why recent Asian immigrants were all doing excellently in school, particularly in Math and the Sciences. They researched the families' attitude towards school issues and found that in Asian immigrants, when a kid returned from school, they cleared the big table, spread out the school stuff and discussed everything that happened during the day in school. Older kids would help younger kids doing their school work.
However, the longer the family lived in the U.S. the more it adapted to the habits in U.S. families (guess what difference), and school grades began to drop until they averaged along with the rest of the kids.
I can see nothing more logical than this connection between the value a society puts on education and its level of academic competence. So as I see it, no matter what the school system, the value system has something to do with the "dominance in the sciences". You don't turn that around by putting pressure on teachers or changing the grading system. You turn that around by leadership and setting examples.

Unfortunately that makes the outlook for the U.S. pretty bleak these days.

It is not untypical for our kids here in old Europe to go on foreign exchange during their high school years. You see 16-year old (young) kids here that speak 4 languages and spend a year abroad, to meet foreign cultures and become well-versed in a global scenario. I once tried to establish a reciprocal exchange for my daughter in the U.S., with zero result. Nobody from the U.S. was interested in being our guest and spend some academic time here. Tucholsky once wrote that the surest means for a lasting international peace is sending school kids abroad to make friends with kids in other countries. Then no government would ever be able again to picture their neighbors as enemies as a pretext for war.

[Neserk]

. I once tried to establish a reciprocal exchange for my daughter in the U.S., with zero result. Nobody from the U.S. was interested in being our guest and spend some academic time here. Tucholsky once wrote that the surest means for a lasting international peace is sending school kids abroad to make friends with kids in their neighboring countries. Then no government would ever be able again to picture their neighbors as enemies as a pretext for war.


That is because many Americans are stuck up snobs... I hate to say it but it is true...

[takao]

I went to a child's home to do a home visit. He was a 1st grader. Struggling at reading. Guess what? He had 2 books. No wonder he couldn't read! It isn't just about money at school it is about what happens at home from birth until they start school and then what happens once they come home from school.

i guess this starts to happen quite often now.... best example is my brother (12)... he never had absolute no problem with reading or bringing his opionion across when talking but he has orthographical problems during writing....

my sister and i said "he doesn't read enough" because we know that if you read mroe you make less errors...but then my mother said us that he is actually the one in class who reads the most... nearly his half class has only a hand full books at home :rolleyes:
when we were at his age we were nearly reading a book a week (we have a big collection of books for children at home because of this ;) )

i guess this has to do with TV....

[skunk]

Good post, Herr Professor. I especially like the We here in old Europe bit :D

[Desertrat]

Thanks, professor, for the item about the changes in Asian-student behavior. I hadn't run across that.

In the 'young and hungry" years of this country, education was seen as the primary way to improve one's lot in life. This was particularly true among more recent immigrants, particularly those from Europe during the first half of the last century. (True before and since, but IMO greater in that particular era.

I fear we have succeeded all too well. For all the noises about poverty and the poor, life is pretty doggoned easy for the vast majority here. There is much less incentive to use education to get ahead, when so many don't see the additional rewards above the present level to be worth the effort.

Is my understanding correct that in Germany (and I believe in France as well) at around the tenth year of school, there is a separation between those who will go to universities and those who will go to trade or technical schools?

(FWIW, the Fertsch family of Frankfurt are cousins. And, my son and his wife live near Lindenburg, NE of Lake Constance.)

:), 'Rat

[takao]

Is my understanding correct that in Germany (and I believe in France as well) at around the tenth year of school, there is a separation between those who will go to universities and those who will go to trade or technical schools?

jop i can't speak of exact grad for germany but i can speak for austria which is similiar ...

first 1-2 years kindergarten
4 years elementary

then either 4 years of "gymnasium" (if you already know that you will study later then this is the choice, you need beter grades for that) or "hauptschule" for all the other

after that you can choose either stay in the gymnasium and have a rather broader education or you choose a HTL ("höhere technische lehranstalt" "higher technical school" ) or a HAK ("handels akademie" "trade academy") if you want to specialise (there are even special HTLs for textil industry or aircraft engeneering) those schools most take only pupils from the gymnasium.. all are 4 years and you can study afterwards

you can still get into those schools if you were in a "hauptschule" but you need excelent grades to get in..
most from the hauptschule join first the "polytechnical school" which only takes 1 year where they can choose their technical subject etc....
they invented that school because it is the law that all parents have to send their kids to school for at least 9 years ...this law exists since Queen Maria Theresia ~1770
other things which can be chossen are either "handelschule" ("trade school" similiar to the HAk but not as good) or "berufsschule" ("occupation school" where you learn the theory of the job you start to learn at the same time at a company as example: car repairing etc)

but i guess i missed many things very complicated system....

[SlyHunter]

Originally Posted by Neserk

I went to a child's home to do a home visit. He was a 1st grader. Struggling at reading. Guess what? He had 2 books. No wonder he couldn't read! It isn't just about money at school it is about what happens at home from birth until they start school and then what happens once they come home from school.

Ever heard of libraries? As a kid I spent my summer in them for my parents couldn't afford baby sitter and trusted me better running around downtown more than me running around our neighborhood.

My nephew has all the books he could want to read. He has the internet but refuses to use email because "its too much reading" I can't email him a cartoon or a post because he doesn't want to go thru his email and actually read the stuff before deleting it. inside of MMORPG he plays he constantly asks questions about this or that and my answer is the same go to allakhazam or check your email the answer is already there. But no he doesn't want to read. He prefers to play badly and upset people with his bad play than to read how to play. He's already been held back 2 years and he still has trouble keeping up. Problem is he doesn't try, he doesn't want to try. He has no goals or ambitions, doesn't even want to be a cowboy, firefighter, or cop someday. Just a bum.

Some people doesn't matter how much support they have or how many benefits they have they still have to make up their own damn mind before they can be educated. They have to decide for themselves "yes I want it." And no matter how poor you are, Lincoln for example only had 1 book, if you make that choice you will succeed at something.

[skunk]

Ever heard of libraries?
Of course we've heard of libraries. The trouble is, many parents are scared of books.

Problem is he doesn't try, he doesn't want to try. He has no goals or ambitions, doesn't even want to be a cowboy, firefighter, or cop someday. Just a bum.
Sounds like a Democrat to me. :)

[Neserk]

Ever heard of libraries? As a kid I spent my summer in them for my parents couldn't afford baby sitter and trusted me better running around downtown more than me running around our neighborhood.


Of course I have. But *my* knowledge of the library is irrelevant to the fact he had only 2 books.



Some people doesn't matter how much support they have or how many benefits they have they still have to make up their own damn mind before they can be educated. They have to decide for themselves "yes I want it."


And is some case you are correct. With him you are not. And with many you are not. He was 7. How was he supposed to make a decision like that?



And no matter how poor you are, Lincoln for example only had 1 book, if you make that choice you will succeed at something.

At that time in history very few people had any books. Very few people new how to read. This is 2004. We live in a different time ;)

[mactastic]

Sly, why would you support a public library? Wouldn't a private library be preferable to the wasteful tax-payer funded one? If you can't afford books, tough. You die stupid, right?

[SlyHunter]

Sly, why would you support a public library? Wouldn't a private library be preferable to the wasteful tax-payer funded one? If you can't afford books, tough. You die stupid, right?
Its all or nothing with you aint it.

[mactastic]

Its all or nothing with you aint it.

I respect intellectual consistency.

You can't espouse rabid libertarianism one minute and then turn around and say you want publicly funded libraries to solve the education crisis in this country.

[Desertrat]

When it comes to public spending, I've always put libraries right in there with police, hospitals, utilities and streets. Parks, too. After that come things like social programs. :)

takao, I know that through the 1940s/1950s we had a division point beginning in the 10th grade (of 12). It was mostly a parental decision, with some recommendation from the teachers: Either college-prep, with a foreign language and more history and literature and advanced math; or a trade-school setup with courses in machine shop, wood working, auto mechanics and agriculture. Many high schools no longer do this, and kids get social promotions and graduate without the grades or means for college, and no marketable skills for employment.

Because of professorial attitudes during the Vietnam War era, undergraduate college curricula were "dumbed down" and easier grading standards came into play. In many colleges this seems to still hold. Not all, of course, but, still, too many.

Add up all the points made in this thread and it's obvious that the U.S. has some truly serious problems.

And yet, those who really want to learn; those who get encouragement, are way ahead of where many of my generation were at the same stage in our lives...

Go figure.

'Rat

[SlyHunter]

Yes: Testing has raised students' expectations, and progress in learning is evident nationwide.

Testing is a part of life. In fact, testing starts at the beginning stages of life: The moment we are born, neonatologists measure our reflexes and responses and give us what is called an Apgar score on a scale of one to 10. As we grow up, our teachers test us in school and we take other standardized tests that compare us with the rest of the nation's students. We are tested if we want to practice a trade - whether it be to get a cosmetology license, a driver's permit or pilot training. And often we are retested and retested again to show that our skills remain at peak level.

In short, tests exist for a reason. In the case of a doctor, they certify that he or she is capable of practicing medicine. In the case of a teacher, they show that he or she has the knowledge to help children learn a given subject. And in the case of a student, they demonstrate whether a child has indeed learned and understood the lesson or the subject.

At their core, tests are simply tools - they subjectively measure things. In education, they are particularly important because they pinpoint where students are doing well and where they need help. In fact, testing has been a part of education since the first child sat behind the first desk. Assessments are an important component of educational accountability; in other words, they tell us whether the system is performing as it should. They diagnose, for the teacher, the parent and the student, any problems so that they can be fixed.

Educational accountability is the cornerstone of the No Child Left Behind Act, President George W. Bush's historic initiative that is designed to raise student performance across America. The law embraces a number of commonsense ways to reach that goal: accountability for results, empowering parents with information about school performance and giving them options, more local control, and flexibility to tailor the law to local circumstances.

No Child Left Behind is a revolutionary change, challenging the current educational system and helping it to improve. It aims to challenge the status quo by pushing the educational system into the 21st century so that American students leave school better prepared for higher education or the workforce.

It is clear that our system as a whole is not preparing the next generation of workers for the global economy ahead of them. As Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan noted recently: "We need to be forward looking in order to adapt our educational system to the evolving needs of the economy and the realities of our changing society. ... It is an effort that should not be postponed." That's why I am so passionate about making these historic reforms and drawing attention to the issue.

The old system - the status quo - is one that we must fight to change. That's why the president and both parties in Congress understood the urgency of the situation and put NCLB into law. They also ensured that the money would be there to get the job done, providing the means to states fully to implement the law; indeed, there's been 41 percent more federal support for education since President Bush took office.
Child by child, the improvements add up. For example, a study by the Council of Great City Schools examined the recent gains in large metropolitan school systems. The Beating the Odds IV report showed that since NCLB has been implemented, public-school students across the country have shown a marked improvement in reading. The report found that the achievement gap in reading and math between African-Americans and whites, and Hispanics and whites in large cities, is narrowing for fourth- and eighth-grade students. And it appears, according to the report, that our big-city schools are closing the gap at a faster rate than the statewide rate. Not only are the achievement gaps closing, the report states, but also math and reading achievement are improving.

For a concrete example of how the law is working, look at the Cheltenham School District in Pennsylvania, where leaders are disaggregating data to find the cracks they must fill. Drawing on test results, the district provides schools with specific information about each student's abilities and weaknesses in specific academic areas. Schools receive this data in easily accessible electronic formats in July, before the students arrive, giving them time to plan for the year. Now teachers can account for the effectiveness of their strategies and, if they are not working for some students, adapt to alternatives.

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/Symposium/Symposiumq.Are.The.Tests.Required.By.No.Child.Left.Behind.Making.Schools.More.Ac-672707.shtml

[Neserk]

HOW STANDARDIZED TESTING DAMAGES EDUCATION


How do schools use standardized tests?
Despite their biases, inaccuracies, limited ability to measure achievement or ability, and other flaws, schools use standardized tests to determine if children are ready for school, track them into instructional groups; diagnose for learning disability, retardation and other handicaps; and decide whether to promote, retain in grade, or graduate many students. Schools also use tests to guide and control curriculum content and teaching methods.

Aren't these valid uses of test scores?
No test is good enough to serve as the sole or primary basis for important educational decisions. Readiness tests, used to determine if a child is ready for school, are very inaccurate and encourage the use of overly academic, developmentally inappropriate primary schooling (that is, schooling not appropriate to the child's emotional, social or intellectual development and to the variation in children's development). Screening tests for disabilities are often not adequately validated; that is, it is not proven that they are accurately measuring for disabilities. They also promote a view of children as having deficits to be corrected, rather than having individual differences and strengths on which to build. While screening tests are supposed to be used to refer children for further diagnosis, they often are used to place children in special programs. Tracking hurts slower students and mostly does not help more advanced students. Retention in grade, or flunking or leaving a student back, is almost always academically and emotionally harmful, not helpful. Test content is a very poor basis for determining curriculum content, and teaching methods based on the test are themselves harmful.

Who is most hurt by these practices?
Students from low-income and minority-group backgrounds are more likely to be retained in grade, placed in a lower track, or put in special or remedial education programs when it is not necessary. They are more likely to be given a watered-down or "dummied-down" curriculum, based heavily on rote drill and test practice. This only ensures they will fall further and further behind their peers. On the other hand, children from white, middle and upper income backgrounds are more likely to be placed in "gifted and talented" or college preparatory programs where they are challenged to read, explore, investigate, think and progress rapidly.

How do tests control curriculum and instruction?
In many districts, raising test scores has become the single most important indicator of school improvement. As a result, teachers and administrators feel enormous pressure to ensure that test scores go up. Schools narrow and change the curriculum to match the test. Teachers teach only what is covered on the test. Methods of teaching conform to the multiple-choice format of the tests. Teaching more and more resembles testing.

Does "teaching to the test" increase student capabilities and knowledge?
This depends on whether the test is good. For multiple-choice tests, "teaching to the test" means focusing on the content that will be on the test, sometimes even drilling on test items, and using the format of the test as a basis for teaching. Since this kind of teaching to the test leads primarily to improved test-taking skills, increases in test scores do not necessarily mean improvement in real academic performance. Teaching to the test also narrows the curriculum, forcing teachers and students to concentrate on memorization of isolated facts, instead of developing fundamental and higher order abilities. For example, multiple-choice writing tests are really copy-editing tests, which do not measure the ability to organize or communicate ideas. Practicing on tests or test-like exercises is not how to learn even the mechanics of English, much less how to write like a writer.

Don't standardized tests provide accountability?
No. Tests that measure as little and as poorly as multiple-choice tests cannot provide genuine accountability. Pressure to teach to the test distorts and narrows education. Instead of being accountable to parents, community, teachers and students, schools become "accountable" to a completely unregulated testing industry.

If we don't use standardized tests, how will we know how students and programs are doing?
Better methods of evaluating student needs and progress already exist. Good observational checklists used by trained teachers are more helpful than any screening test. Assessment based on student performance on real learning tasks is more useful and accurate for measuring achievement - and provides more information - than multiple-choice achievement tests.

Are other methods of assessment as reliable as standardized multiple-choice tests?
Trained teams of judges can be used to rate performance in most any academic or non-academic area. In the Olympic Games, for example, gymnasts and divers are rated by panels of judges, and the high and low scores are thrown out. Studies have shown that, with training, the level of agreement among judges (the "inter-rater reliability") is high. As with multiple-choice tests, it is necessary to enact safeguards to ensure that race, class, gender, linguistic or other cultural biases do not affect evaluation.

How do other nations evaluate their students?
The U.S. is the only economically advanced nation to rely heavily on multiple-choice tests. Other nations use performance-based assessment where students are evaluated on the basis of real work such as essays, projects and activities. Ironically, because these nations do not focus on teaching to multiple-choice tests, they even score higher than U.S. students on those kinds of tests.

http://www.fairtest.org/facts/howharm.htm

[SlyHunter]

Its already proven that trusting these "trained teachers" don't work. Evidence well we have a problem with students being intelligent enough for college after graduating high school. You don't fix a problem by doing the same thing you were doing when the problem occured. Our students are not getting educated by these "trained teachers" as well as they should be. Too many teachers that can't teach and can't be fired because of unions is the problem. Test scores is the solution.

[Neserk]

Its already proven that trusting these "trained teachers" don't work.


Where? by who? Politcians who want to send their kids to private schools at the taxpayers expense?


Evidence well we have a problem with students being intelligent enough for college after graduating high school. You don't fix a problem by doing the same thing you were doing when the problem occured.


there is serious question as to rather or not their is actually a problem. Let's assume there is, for the sake of the discussion. Standardized testing is *not* the answer. These tests have existed *at least* since I was in 2nd grade in 77/78. They haven't fixed anything.


Our students are not getting educated by these "trained teachers" as well as they should be.


You have a BA? Go take the CBEST. Get yourself fingerprinted. Take the CSET. Spend 1.5 in college getting trained. Go to an underperforming school and *you* show them how it is done. You wouldn't last a day.


Too many teachers that can't teach and can't be fired because of unions is the problem. Test scores is the solution.

There are no more teachers who can't teach than there incompetent workers in *any* field. That includes doctors, lawers, & computer people.


I'm going to tell you this one more time and then this discussion is done from my end.

STANDARDIZED TESTS ONLY TELL YOU HOW WELL A CHILD DID ON A STANDARDIZED TEST. THEY DO NOT TELL YOU GOOD OF A JOB THE TEACHER DID THEY DO NOT TELL YOU WHAT THE CHILD KNOWS. A LIMITED NUMBER OF PEOPLE PERFORM WELL ON STANDARDIZED TESTS.

I've taught you this for about 2 days now. You *still* don't get it. Now you know how frustrating it can be to be a teacher when you have a student is *so* stubborn they refuse to learn.

[SlyHunter]

Where? by who? Politcians who want to send their kids to private schools at the taxpayers expense?


By you. You yourself admit our kids are not smart enough to compete in the world marketplace. You yourself complain about "kids left behind". You recognize that our education system isn't working. So why is it you want to trust the very same system that isn't working by throwing more money at it instead of trying newer and more innovated ways of doing things. How about making teachers accountable those who can't teach get fired.

[SlyHunter]

STANDARDIZED TESTS ONLY TELL YOU HOW WELL A CHILD DID ON A STANDARDIZED TEST. THEY DO NOT TELL YOU GOOD OF A JOB THE TEACHER DID THEY DO NOT TELL YOU WHAT THE CHILD KNOWS. A LIMITED NUMBER OF PEOPLE PERFORM WELL ON STANDARDIZED TESTS.

I've taught you this for about 2 days now. You *still* don't get it. Now you know how frustrating it can be to be a teacher when you have a student is *so* stubborn they refuse to learn.
If a teacher did their job the students on average would have no problem with the test. It is the teachers job to figure out how to teach if they can't fire them and find one who can. Simply because you say so doesn't make it true. Problem I always had with teachers they think they are like god that if they teach a lie it becomes the truth and then fail you for answering the question correctly because it doesn't fit their narrow minded vision of how things should work. You see part of being good at something is being good at proving you are good at it like taking a test. If they are not capable of taking tests then they are not going to be capable of working on deadlines for programming problems, final analyst reporting, or any kind of documentation of their work. Without documentation who cares how good they are unless they want to be a mechanic or some day laborer their entire lives. The world is a test, there are tests every day in a variety of ways so one of the things they better become good at is taking tests.


Why do you think Homeschool children do better in the FBLA, Spelling Bees, and a variety of other school educational games than those taught in schools? I know up front you'll name the one-one relationship from student to teacher that they get as well as the at home dedication to their learning. However you forget in order to keep a kid out of school a parent must prove they are teaching their kid what they are suppose to be teaching. How they do that is by having the kid take tests outside of the supervision of the parent. Yet these kids who are being taught "to the test" traditionally get higher scores than those who are taught in school. Maybe its time everyone was taught "to the test" instead of teaching to your whim. We need the test to force teachers to teach what they should've been teaching all along and stop wasting so much time teaching things they shouldn't be teaching like brain washing them into nice liberal democratic followers.

[Desertrat]

Professor, as to mono-linguality: Compare the size of the U.S. to Europe. Where else in the world could one travel over 5,000 kilometers with just one language being sufficient, and no passport or controls over travel? (Or find the same [Bleep!] Big Mac in Seattle as in Key West?) For the vast majority of our citizens, there just hasn't been any need for second languages or more.

A favorite memory is that of a young lady in Paris. Born in Shanghai in 1937, she spent WW II in Switzerland. Post war, her father was the French Legate to Japan. She understood Japanese, although she wasn't fluent. She spoke Swiss/German and the Romance languages as well as English. She was studying Russian, prepping for a visit to her relatives in the French embassy in Moscow. While we were dating, she and her friends were kind to this "pore ol' country boy from Travis County, Texas" and mostly spoke English. :)

As to standardized tests: I can't recall ever having taken any. For one thing, the feds weren't involved in "edjicatin'" and so school funds could be allocated in more useful ways. Through 9th grade (1947/1948), my schools were associated with the University of Texas, and there were some survey-type tests. Otherwise, I only recall the efforts of developing what became the Stanford-Binet IQ tests. My mother commented about her embarrassment at my screwing up the effort. There she was, teaching in the Psych Dept and working with those on the project. HER SON! scored "too high" in "too short a time" and they had to rework the curves. She still occasionally gripes about that...:D

Teach to the average. Give extra work to the bright ones. Homework is a must-have. Challenge the kids to perform, so they can generate pride, self-esteem and self-respect for overcoming these carefully-calculated challenges. And forget all this testing nonsense.

We worry so much about the "sick/lame/lazy" and the fundamentally incomepetent that we're forgetting those who actually accomplish things during their adult lives.

'Rat

[takao]

Professor, as to mono-linguality: Compare the size of the U.S. to Europe. Where else in the world could one travel over 5,000 kilometers with just one language being sufficient

russia ;)

but where else can you travel 5000 km with that many cultural differences



and no passport or controls over travel?


you mean like in the EU ?
no controls before flights in the US ?

(Or find the same [Bleep!] Big Mac in Seattle as in Key West?)

i guess those are pretty much the same everywhere... just like Aspirin from Bayer is everywhere the same...(i don't know about coca cola i heard they use different mixtures between north amerika/europe/asia)


For the vast majority of our citizens, there just hasn't been any need for second languages or more.

well it's all about flexability... i would count it as a big advantage if you understand news from other countries..or being able to comunicate with more people...sure there is no need..but perhaps somebody will need it later you never know ;)

[skunk]

Where else in the world could one travel over 5,000 kilometers with just one language being sufficient, and no passport or controls over travel?
'Rat
Australia? They travel a lot. More than 7% with a passport, certainly. :)

[professor]

Professor, as to mono-linguality: Compare the size of the U.S. to Europe. Where else in the world could one travel over 5,000 kilometers with just one language being sufficient, and no passport or controls over travel? (Or find the same [Bleep!] Big Mac in Seattle as in Key West?) For the vast majority of our citizens, there just hasn't been any need for second languages or more.
'Rat

This just illustrates my point about our differences in values / education.

[zimv20]

Where else in the world could one travel over 5,000 kilometers with just one language being sufficient, and no passport or controls over travel?
OT: should there be another 9/11-style terrorist attack here, i reckon we can kiss such intra-US freedoms goodbye.

[Desertrat]

I guess I was thinking of the old USSR, where you could hardly cross town without permission from the State. Europe? 5,000 klicks from the north of Scotland puts you where? It's only about 3,000 to Athens! I'll give you Australia...

Texas is about the same size as Germany. We have enough troule with English, Spanish and Tex-Mex. (Tex-Mex is similar to Spanish, but woe unto the Castilian who tries to converse! :D )

zim, that's been a mild worry for many since long before 9/11. Goes back at least to 1986's Simpson/Mazzoli Immigration Reform Bill and the discussions of a national ID card. Since 9/11, I figure that one more equivalent terroristic act and we'll probably see national ID cards and frequent road checks.

The sales pitch will be along the lines of "It's for better national security for your children, and to protect the environment. If terrorists blow up an oil refinery, it'll pollute the environment." (Oops! There went my cynicism button, again.)

'Rat

[Bedawyn]

Neserk: STANDARDIZED TESTS ONLY TELL YOU HOW WELL A CHILD DID ON A STANDARDIZED TEST.

No argument there. But why doesn't a given child do well on a standardized test? Stress, anxiety, sure... aren't those things they should be learning, at least in the upper grades, to deal with? What good is it to learn anything if you can't put it to use when it's called for? And if you do truly know and understand something, then why would a test stress you out anyway? I'd think this thread's starter, our falling behind in the sciences, would be enough to show that we need some way of proving that as many of our children as possible are reaching the same minimum standards.

I'm no fan of No Child Left Behind, and I certainly don't believe standardized testing is the answer to our educational problems, but I also don't believe it's the evil to end all that so many people portray it as. It's the focus on the tests to exclusion of other things that is the problem, not the tests themselves. Most of the time that I hear someone ranting about the evils of standardized tests (I'm speaking in general here; I got the impression Nerserk was more ranting about Sly than about tests :) ), it just strikes me as more of the anti-intellectualism that was mentioned earlier. We didn't do well because we actually studied and paid attention, we just happen to "test well". It's a nice excuse for once more dissing the kids who work hard and coddling the ones who goofed off.

[Neserk]

Neserk: STANDARDIZED TESTS ONLY TELL YOU HOW WELL A CHILD DID ON A STANDARDIZED TEST.

No argument there. But why doesn't a given child do well on a standardized test?


It has a lot to do with learning style.


Stress, anxiety, sure... aren't those things they should be learning, at least in the upper grades, to deal with?


You can tell them they have to deal with it all they want to but test anxiety is diagnosable. It is a recognized issue that causes people who are extremely intelligent to completely flop when they have to take a standardized test. I had a friend in college who got about 1000 on the SAT's because of it. She was *extremely* intelligent. At the age of 18 she was fluent in English and French (English being her native language) and in college she became fluent in Spanish in a matter of about 3 years which is almost unheard of. She now lives in Spain with her husband and teaches in Spanish. This is just 1 example of *how*intelligent she is.



What good is it to learn anything if you can't put it to use when it's called for?



What we learn is put to use in real life situations. In June I will take the RICA of the over 14 Standardized tests I've taken since the age of 8 it will be the first practical one. I will actually have to apply what I know to test questions.


And if you do truly know and understand something, then why would a test stress you out anyway?

Good question. But you'd have to ask psychologists that question. It could simply be the environment. I know there are now accomadations made to people who have verifiable test anxiety. But that only covers the extreme cases. It isn't available (to my knowledge) for those who have more "mild" cases which strongly affects their scores but not to the point that they would even be very aware of it. Not everyone breaks out into a cold sweat or completely freezes on a test. Those are the people who have an easier time getting the letter recognizing that need accomdations.


I'd think this thread's starter, our falling behind in the sciences, would be enough to show that we need some way of proving that as many of our children as possible are reaching the same minimum standards.


The problem isn't the standards it how they are tested. If you read the article I posted you will see that the US is the *only* place that puts so much empahsis on these tests.


I'm no fan of No Child Left Behind, and I certainly don't believe standardized testing is the answer to our educational problems, but I also don't believe it's the evil to end all that so many people portray it as. It's the focus on the tests to exclusion of other things that is the problem, not the tests themselves.


If they were one small piece of a much bigger picture then you'd be correct. But the government is making them the end all and be all. They are *the* deciding factor when it comes to them choosing to take over a school.


Most of the time that I hear someone ranting about the evils of standardized tests (I'm speaking in general here; I got the impression Nerserk was more ranting about Sly than about tests :) ), it just strikes me as more of the anti-intellectualism that was mentioned earlier. We didn't do well because we actually studied and paid attention, we just happen to "test well".


No, I'm ranting about the tests. My kids are currently in the midst of it. Traditional schools and Purple and Red tracks have just finished taking the tests. Orange, Gold, and Green tracks are getting ready to start next week. Obviously you aren't likely to do well on a standardized test if you are not learning anything. The statistical liklihood is very low. I do well on standardized tests. I always have. It has a lot to do with my personality and my learning styles. And I'm above average in intelligence ;) But I could be *more* intelligent and peform very poorly on them, too. *That* is where the problem. That and the biases.


It's a nice excuse for once more dissing the kids who work hard and coddling the ones who goofed off.


I wish it were that simple. But I've seen it not be the case with my own eyes.

[Bedawyn]

Caveat: It's late and I'm half-asleep, so if I don't make sense, that's why. :-)

It has a lot to do with learning style.

Maybe, but I don't buy this as an excuse for not doing well. Say you want "tests" that evaluate all types of learning styles, and I'll be right with you. But the fact that there are other learning styles doesn't invalidate the styles that are already tested, or mean that what the standardized tests evaluate isn't important. And reading, writing, comprehension, and memorization have worked as educational techniques for centuries, which is a point in their favor. The fact that they're traditional isn't proof that they're essential, but the fact that new techniques are in use now isn't proof that the old ones are wrong, either. There's no reason you have to lose the benefits of one to gain the benefits of the other.


You can tell them they have to deal with it all they want to but test anxiety is diagnosable.

Diagnosable by who? The same people who said for decades that epilepsy was a mental illness, then said for more decades that it wasn't related to mental illness at all, and now are starting to say again "Oh, yeah, it looks like it is related to depression and bipolar disorder after all"? The same people who hand out "anti-depressant" medications that make children suicidal? Psychology and neuroscience are my preferred fields, and yeah, they've done a lot of good work, but honest, the vast majority of the time they don't have a clue. The scientists will even tell you they don't have a clue, though the clinicians usually won't admit it unless forced. So something being "diagnosable" doesn't cut any water with me. As you said, the only thing a disorder being diagnosable means is that the person displays a certain set of symptoms that tend to occur together. Doesn't, in itself, tell you anything about why or about the best way to deal with it.

Now, that said, I'm not claiming there aren't people who have a genuine psychological disorder that would give them an unfair handicap in taking standardized tests. But I do think that their numbers are far fewer than many would have us believe. In a society where parents regularly do their kids' homework for them and where far too many would rather have their kids dosed with Ritalin than put the effort into finding the right balance between discipline and childish exuberance, I don't find it hard to believe that many parents and kids would rather claim "test anxiety!" than admit they're anxious because they didn't learn the material. This is the same society where McDonald's forces us to overeat, the tobacco companies force us to smoke, and addiction forces us to do drugs (even though we weren't addicted the first time we chose to take them). Anything to avoid responsibility, and if that "anything" has a medical label, all the better.

It is a recognized issue that causes people who are extremely intelligent to completely flop when they have to take a standardized test.

*shakes head* But intelligence isn't the issue. We're not talking about Stanford-Binet, here; intelligence _shouldn't_ have anything to do with how well you do on standardized educational tests. It should be about what you _know_.

What we learn is put to use in real life situations. In June I will take the RICA of the over 14 Standardized tests I've taken since the age of 8 it will be the first practical one. I will actually have to apply what I know to test questions.

But, see, for some of us, reading and writing and memorization _is_ practical. I don't remember taking a standardized test that didn't include word problems, and only a very few times have I ever needed those types of skills in real life. But reading comprehension, pattern matching (analogies), all the other types of questions -- even algebraic equations -- those types of skills are things I need on a daily basis. The ability to sit and concentrate on a boring piece of paper for three hours in a row is also an essential skill that I need on a daily basis.

And I'm not even sure that most of the tests should be practical, anyway. In the later years of high school, yeah, some level of practicality for life skills. But most of the tests are designed to ensure we have a basic level of factual knowledge that we will build on later, preferably in college. Short of a presidential election, how do you practically test that someone has learned enough history and philosophy and civics to make informed political decisions? How do you practically test that someone has learned enough about biology to understand the debate on stem cells? Sure, you can have the kids do experiments, and that's great. Learning about the scientific process is important, but so is learning the specific facts of what's already been discovered.

I know there are now accomadations made to people who have verifiable test anxiety. But that only covers the extreme cases. It isn't available (to my knowledge) for those who have more "mild" cases which strongly affects their scores but not to the point that they would even be very aware of it. Not everyone breaks out into a cold sweat or completely freezes on a test.

Now, see, this is what I mean. If it's not that extreme, if it's not verifiable, if they're not even very aware of it, why on earth should they be accomodated? Why should we put it down to a disorder instead of just plain old garden-variety anxiety?

I get anxious at anything that involves handling mechanical things, or god forbid, getting anywhere near a bunsen burner. But if I dropped everything, spilled chemicals everywhere, and burned myself in the middle of a practical test (and I almost certainly would), I wouldn't be claiming the test wasn't fair. I'd be the first to tell you that if I couldn't do the chemistry experiment successfully, then by golly, I shouldn't be passing chemistry. Now I could list all sorts of reasons, about learning styles and feminine stereotypes and home environments etc. ad nauseaum, why I do much better with reading and writing than with hands-on work. But none of those reasons matter. If I can't do the bleeping experiment, then I can't do the bleeping experiment, and if being able to do it is part of an evaluation, then I don't pass. The solution is to change the teaching techniques so that I'm better able to handle situations that don't involve my nose in a book -- not to condemn the experiment.

The problem isn't the standards it how they are tested.

Then how would you suggest success be evaluated? Defining "success" as guaranteeing that U.S. children of a similar age share a minimum common base of both skills and factual knowledge, and given that the evaluation strategy has to be practically and economically feasible on a large scale?

If they were one small piece of a much bigger picture then you'd be correct. But the government is making them the end all and be all. They are *the* deciding factor when it comes to them choosing to take over a school.

But they are just one small piece of a bigger picture. Not my fault that Bush likes wearing blinders. :-) I already said I didn't approve of NCLB, so I'm not arguing with you there.

But I could be *more* intelligent and peform very poorly on them, too. *That* is where the problem.

But of course. I'd be worried if we tried to judge schools on mandatory intelligence testing. But intelligence has nothing to do with knowledge, and is far from synonymous with understanding.

[Neserk]

At this point the only thing I can tell you is to become a teacher. After you do that you will understand the truth of what I say. For some people only experience will teach.

[zimv20]

For some people only experience will teach.
and for a few nothing ever will (i'm slyly avoiding saying who)

[Neserk]

and for a few nothing ever will (i'm slyly avoiding saying who)

*sigh* I know... thanks :)

[skunk]

*sigh* I know... thanks :)
Shouldn't that be *sligh*? :p

[professor]

I guess I was thinking of the old USSR, where you could hardly cross town without permission from the State. Europe? 5,000 klicks from the north of Scotland puts you where? It's only about 3,000 to Athens! I'll give you Australia...

Texas is about the same size as Germany. We have enough troule with English, Spanish and Tex-Mex. (Tex-Mex is similar to Spanish, but woe unto the Castilian who tries to converse! :D )

zim, that's been a mild worry for many since long before 9/11. Goes back at least to 1986's Simpson/Mazzoli Immigration Reform Bill and the discussions of a national ID card. Since 9/11, I figure that one more equivalent terroristic act and we'll probably see national ID cards and frequent road checks.

The sales pitch will be along the lines of "It's for better national security for your children, and to protect the environment. If terrorists blow up an oil refinery, it'll pollute the environment." (Oops! There went my cynicism button, again.)

'Rat

[professor]

I guess I was thinking of the old USSR, where you could hardly cross town without permission from the State. Europe? 5,000 klicks from the north of Scotland puts you where? It's only about 3,000 to Athens! I'll give you Australia...

Texas is about the same size as Germany. We have enough troule with English, Spanish and Tex-Mex. (Tex-Mex is similar to Spanish, but woe unto the Castilian who tries to converse! :D )
[...]
'Rat

I don't get it. You mean geographical size as an excuse for not getting an education? Having foreigners in your country as an excuse for not learning a language? You don't really need to tell me the distance between Scotland and Athens. We have geography classes. We travel. We send our highschool kids abroad for early exposure and some understanding of foreign culture.
Why do you criticize people living in your country for their accents/dialects? We have so many dialects in our small country the size of Texas that rural people from one end of the country can't understand their counterparts elsewhere in the country. We don't consider this a deficiency but a cultural treasure.
Sometimes size can be a problem, but only if you let it affect your mind.

[jefhatfield]

NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/science/03RESE.html?ex=1084161600&en=88b4555287a5fd0c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

I've stated here before that the key to the US' success is continual innovation. gw & co. have chosen to rely on what is known rather than what is unknown. From massive subsidies to the oil industry rather than alternative sources to NASA, he is failing us. Whether you believe that it is a gw problem or not, the fact is that we are failing to continue to innovate and this can only lead to the death of the American experiment.

science is such a broad term, and in any definition it's hard to see the usa losing dominance per se...at least quickly

i can agree that maybe our dominance is not what is was after world war II

in my little niche of science in my job of "computer science", i can say there is more than just a tendency of losing dominance ;)

it's no secret that there are increasingly more qualified indians, chinese, russians, japanese, germans, english, etc computer scientists out there competing with america's best

when i walk around the campus at stanford or cal, i generally don't think all the foreign students i see, many who are classic geeks, are studying english lit, sociology, or women's studies ;) it would be fair to say they are mostly in some science related major

i don't know if it's the mathematical/science education of those countries, an overall need to "catch up", a hunger to bring their economies back, or a combination of the above, but the best computer scientists i have seen in this field i work in are usually foreigners

but of course many of these people become americans or at least stay in america and continue to strengten computer science in america

[jefhatfield]

when i walk around the campus at stanford or cal, i generally don't think all the foreign students i see, many who are classic geeks, are studying english lit, sociology, or women's studies ;) it would be fair to say they are mostly in some science related major



of course, english is not the easiest language for many non english speaking people to pick up so naturally it would take less work to study a science which uses international concepts

my uncle from japan could have gone to college in america and breezed through any science program of his choosing, but instead he chose to study english/american literature...and at the time he could barely speak english

he worked his ass off but he wanted to prove that a japanese national with basic, if even that, english skills can get a degree thought of as off limits to other japanese...due to the difficulty of reading, writing, and analyzing english

when other japanese hear that he got his bachelor's in america, they think, "so what?", but when they hear that he got his degree in american literature, they are truly impressed

and for any american out there, if you went to japan, wouldn't it be easier to study engineering than classical japanese literature which borrows from three alphabets and thousands of characters?

[jefhatfield]

Not at all: son and daughter, 30 and 28! We taught them history, geography, latin(!), french, physics, maths, woodwork, ceramics, metalwork, art and much else, with some help from friends. I'm sure they had a much broader education than they would have at school. They socialised well, with friends' kids, and friends from the school they both attended before we went it alone (with their agreement, of course!).
The local council can be a total pain about home education, depending where you are, but ours was supportive, if somewhat detached. A single inspection was all we got, but they were so impressed when the children engaged them in an in-depth discussion of fusion power that they hardly bothered us after that!
It's great if you can find the time. :)

we have a lot of homeschooled kids coming into our local junior college and they are between 12 and 16 years old and from what i have seen, taking an occassional class there every year for the past 25 years ;), i see that those kids do quite well and excel in college for the most part

the embarassing thing is that these students are among the college's top graduates every year so i don't really know what that says about our public school system ;)

unfortunately , the dating life of the average 14-15 year old is not so good at the college and they miss out on the concepts of a prom, homecoming dance, and hanging out with "peers"...i think the everyday social life of a kid in high school is important...i think i missed out some since i was one of those early entries into the college system

there is no hurry to graduate and when you are 30 and off doing m-f, rush hour, shopping for groceries, paying bills, etc, it won't matter that you entered college at 12 or at 18

[Neserk]

the embarassing thing is that these students are among the college's top graduates every year so i don't really know what that says about our public school system ;)



It says that if we could educate kids according to their learning style in a 1:3 ratio we could teach them just about anything! The sad truth is we are lucky be able to hit two learning styles in any given lesson and we heard children through classrooms like cattle.

[Frohickey]

It is my understanding that the majority of those who seek degrees in the sciences and engineering are foreign born.

I've recently read that China has some 500,000 graduates per year with degrees in science and engineering.

Some 50,000 U.S. students are involved in science fairs each year. In China, it's some six million.

Any questions?

'Rat

Maybe so, but I have worked with some Chinese 'engineers'. I would not call them engineers. I have techs that I work with that are more talented that these Chinese 'engineers'.

But, there is some gems in the thread, such as the numbers of people in the US that are pursuing careers in science and math. I hope that the Lunar Base and Manned Martian project will spur the numbers in the US. It worked during the '60s. No reason why it can't work in the 00's.

Here's to hoping that foreign companies and labor are disqualified from contributing to the new Space Exploration initiatives. If the US is paying for it, might as well spend it in the US.

[Frohickey]

Say what you want about Intel, but the Pentium M is a nice chip...now why couldn't we design something like that over here???

The reason the Pentium M was designed in Jerusalem (Middle East) is because they needed to make sure it can tolerate the heat. :D :D :D

[zimv20]

Maybe so, but I have worked with some Chinese 'engineers'. I would not call them engineers. I have techs that I work with that are more talented that these Chinese 'engineers'.
sample size problem.

i've worked w/ geniuses and morons from all different kinds of countries. but i've not enough anecdotal evidence to draw any great conclusions about the talents of any one race.

[jefhatfield]

Maybe so, but I have worked with some Chinese 'engineers'. I would not call them engineers. I have techs that I work with that are more talented that these Chinese 'engineers'.

But, there is some gems in the thread, such as the numbers of people in the US that are pursuing careers in science and math. I hope that the Lunar Base and Manned Martian project will spur the numbers in the US. It worked during the '60s. No reason why it can't work in the 00's.

Here's to hoping that foreign companies and labor are disqualified from contributing to the new Space Exploration initiatives. If the US is paying for it, might as well spend it in the US.

where do you live? what do you do for a living? are you an engineer yourself or technician?

i am sure that there are some very terrible chinese engineers, but i doubt they go through the time, expense, and american education/degrees to come to our shores to do shoddy work ;)

at least in my chosen field of high tech, i see the cream of the crop of england, china, india, the middle east, japan, taiwan, korea, mexico, holland, and many other countries

the usa may not have the "most dominant" engineers, but we certainly have the best single job market for technical people and that's what brings the best talent for around the world

and where i am in northern california, we also see the best american technically inclined professionals, too...but right now, after the dot.bomb thing, there are more techies than there are jobs and hopefully that will change

[professor]

[...]
and where i am in northern california, we also see the best american technically inclined professionals, too...but right now, after the dot.bomb thing, there are more techies than there are jobs and hopefully that will change

The U.S. always had a good balance of reward and punishment. The possibility of striking it rich, the positive attitude towards individualism and innovation, the generally positive attitude of the population and their tolerance towards foreign-born achievers made the U.S. a prosperous place.
In terms of "punishment", somebody said that in the U.S. "you constantly live one month's salary away from the abyss". Thus everybody feels permanently compelled by two forces, one pulling, one pushing, to achieve, to accomplish, to excel.

Other countries' social systems are designed differently. In Europe so much of your income is taken away that you may feel that no matter how hard you work, you won't keep enough of your income. On the other hand, if you fail to excel and lose your job, nothing terrible will happen. You can always economize by taking your unemployment compensation and move to Crete where life is cheaper. There doesn't seem to be such a big incentive here (Europe) to work your butt off, in order to get somewhere in life.

Now go to Latin America or similar places: if you're born on the wrong side of the railroad tracks, no matter how hard you work, you will always get screwed. So why even work hard?

It used to be the right balance that made the U.S. big.

These values will not go away. Right now, they are overshadowed by the actions of a government that is doing its best to wreck the position and the reputation the U.S. once had. This reputation will be back once there is a new president who will, hopefully, bring the U.S. back to what it used to be.

This is the one and most important job the U.S. has to accomplish. The sooner the better.

[Frohickey]

where do you live? what do you do for a living? are you an engineer yourself or technician?

i am sure that there are some very terrible chinese engineers, but i doubt they go through the time, expense, and american education/degrees to come to our shores to do shoddy work ;)

at least in my chosen field of high tech, i see the cream of the crop of england, china, india, the middle east, japan, taiwan, korea, mexico, holland, and many other countries

the usa may not have the "most dominant" engineers, but we certainly have the best single job market for technical people and that's what brings the best talent for around the world

and where i am in northern california, we also see the best american technically inclined professionals, too...but right now, after the dot.bomb thing, there are more techies than there are jobs and hopefully that will change

Northern California working as an Engineer.

The cream of the crop, as you say, would probably go through the time, expense to come to the US to study and work. But those are not the ones I talk about. I talk about the regular engineers that stay within China, get an education in China and are hired on as engineers.

These I have interacted with.

You cannot say that the majority or even a large percentage of foreign engineers are educated in the US. That is just not the way it is.

[blackfox]

The U.S. always had a good balance of reward and punishment. The possibility of striking it rich, the positive attitude towards individualism and innovation, the generally positive attitude of the population and their tolerance towards foreign-born achievers made the U.S. a prosperous place.
In terms of "punishment", somebody said that in the U.S. "you constantly live one month's salary away from the abyss". Thus everybody feels permanently compelled by two forces, one pulling, one pushing, to achieve, to accomplish, to excel.

Other countries' social systems are designed differently. In Europe so much of your income is taken away that you may feel that no matter how hard you work, you won't keep enough of your income. On the other hand, if you fail to excel and lose your job, nothing terrible will happen. You can always economize by taking your unemployment compensation and move to Crete where life is cheaper. There doesn't seem to be such a big incentive here (Europe) to work your butt off, in order to get somewhere in life.

Now go to Latin America or similar places: if you're born on the wrong side of the railroad tracks, no matter how hard you work, you will always get screwed. So why even work hard?

It used to be the right balance that made the U.S. big.

These values will not go away. Right now, they are overshadowed by the actions of a government that is doing its best to wreck the position and the reputation the U.S. once had. This reputation will be back once there is a new president who will, hopefully, bring the U.S. back to what it used to be.

This is the one and most important job the U.S. has to accomplish. The sooner the better.
Interesting take Prof...I happen to think you are right...good post.