DONE AND DUSTED - NOT!

[skunk]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Abuse-Reprimand.html?hp
May 3, 2004


7 U.S. Soldiers Disciplined in Abuse at Iraqi Prison
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS





BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Seven U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in connection with the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners carried out by guards at Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison, a senior military official said on Monday.


On the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, six of the soldiers -- all officers and noncommissioned officers -- have received the most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, the official said on condition of anonymity.


A seventh officer was given a more lenient admonishment.


The military official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial. However, the reprimands could spell the end of their careers.


Another six U.S. military police are facing criminal charges.


Allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, on Baghdad's western outskirts, exploded onto the world stage this past week after CBS' ``60 Minutes II'' broadcast images allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by their U.S. captors.


An internal U.S. Army report found that Iraqi detainees were subjected to ``sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses,'' according to The New Yorker magazine.


The official said the military is telling its servicemen to be on the lookout for backlash stemming from the abuse and is briefing troops on how to discuss the issue in conversation with Iraqis.


``We've made it very clear to commanders and all the way down to the lowest soldier, 'You've got to get out there and explain what happened here,''' the official said.

Looks like they're REALLY taking it seriously. This should win a LOAD of hearts and minds. :mad:

[amnesiac1984]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Abuse-Reprimand.html?hp
[indent]

Looks like they're REALLY taking it seriously. This should win a LOAD of hearts and minds. :mad:

indeed, these guys should be serving prison sentences! If you want to show iraqi's that the new regime is any different then you gotta come down on these guys like a ton of bricks because that is what would happen if somebody was convicted of doing this in this country!

[skunk]

indeed, these guys should be serving prison sentences! If you want to show iraqi's that the new regime is any different then you gotta come down on these guys like a ton of bricks because that is what would happen if somebody was convicted of doing this in this country!
I guess the Iraqis will just feel pissed on again when they hear about this....

[amnesiac1984]

I guess the Iraqis will just feel pissed on again when they hear about this....

more worrying than that they will see this as a reason why they are no better off than they were before and get reminded of saddams torture tactics. I know this isn't the same but letting these guys off doesn't exactly show the iraqi's that we are that serious about it and it doesn't do much to ensure that it won't happen again!

[skunk]

more worrying than that they will see this as a reason why they are no better off than they were before and get reminded of saddams torture tactics. I know this isn't the same but letting these guys off doesn't exactly show the iraqi's that we are that serious about it and it doesn't do much to ensure that it won't happen again!
I think the US military has a problem understanding this "hearts and minds" concept. Totally effing clueless, actually.

[Desertrat]

Don't overlook the fact that six are facing courtsmartial. They're the ones who actually did the Bad Stuff.

What has apparently dropped below the horizon is the early-on mention of somebody--apparently a "civilian" interrogator--who instigated the incident which was video-taped. If the procedures in the Iraqi prisons mirror those of Afghanistan, he must have been a CIA guy. The only comment of note that I recall is something along the lines that he was not held because of a "lack of jurisdiction". Huh?

Purely opinion and guessing: The CIA guy told those who've been reprimanded to stay away and find other things to do while he did his "interrogating". Similar to what I've read about goings-on in Vietnam. Again, speculation...

'Rat

[skunk]

Don't overlook the fact that six are facing courtsmartial. They're the ones who actually did the Bad Stuff.

What has apparently dropped below the horizon is the early-on mention of somebody--apparently a "civilian" interrogator--who instigated the incident which was video-taped. If the procedures in the Iraqi prisons mirror those of Afghanistan, he must have been a CIA guy. The only comment of note that I recall is something along the lines that he was not held because of a "lack of jurisdiction". Huh?

Purely opinion and guessing: The CIA guy told those who've been reprimanded to stay away and find other things to do while he did his "interrogating". Similar to what I've read about goings-on in Vietnam. Again, speculation...

'Rat
'Rat, I think you're being sidetracked: this is not an isolated incident. It's been happening systemically, it's a failure of command, it's both our lot and yours. A reprimand is not enough. A culture change is needed, but if your leaders take you into an aggressive war based on falsehood, who is going to uphold the ethical standards? These guys clearly do not feel they are representing the good, or they would not behave like this.

[IrishGold]

I think the US military has a problem understanding this "hearts and minds" concept. Totally effing clueless, actually.


And what would you know? You live in England. You read what you see in the newspapers and websites. Our army has done plenty good in the past.

edit: just to make my point clear, you can't judge an entire army by the actions of a few.

[IJ Reilly]

'Rat, I think you're being sidetracked: this is not an isolated incident. It's been happening systemically, it's a failure of command, it's both our lot and yours. A reprimand is not enough. A culture change is needed, but if your leaders take you into an aggressive war based on falsehood, who is going to uphold the ethical standards? These guys clearly do not feel they are representing the good, or they would not behave like this.

Indeed, the report prepared earlier this year concluded that such abuses were widespread, and that the people committing them were following orders to "soften up" these prisoners for interrogation. At this point, I have three questions in my mind: (1) Where did the orders originate; (2) who read the report before it was leaked to the press; and (3) what was being done to correct the problem before it came to the attention of the public?

[Lyle]

Don't overlook the fact that six are facing courtsmartial. They're the ones who actually did the Bad Stuff.Maybe I misread the story, but this sounds to me like no one is facing court martial:"... The military official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial."I'm glad that the "reprimands" could spell the end of their careers, but I don't think that's enough in this situation.

[mactastic]

Maybe I misread the story, but this sounds to me like no one is facing court martial

Seven more U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, and the U.S. officer who oversaw Baghdad’s notorious Abu Ghraib prison suggested Monday that more may be involved and an investigation was continuing.

On the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, six of the soldiers — all officers and noncommissioned officers — have received the most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, a military official said on condition of anonymity. A seventh officer was given a more lenient admonishment.

The official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial. However, the reprimands could spell the end of their careers.

Another six U.S. military police are facing criminal charges.