Sony Connect Launches

[MacRumors]

Sony launched (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/webguide/music/2004-05-03-sony_x.htm) their music download service today -- "Connect".

The service, however, appears to be built around supporting Sony's own MiniDisc format, which has not seen significant commercial success over the past several years. Sony is expected to introduce high capacity MiniDisc devices later this year.

While songs are similarly priced to the rest of the industry ($.99/song), Sony will be using the ATRAC song format, making it incompatible with most MP3 players and the iPod.

[ZildjianKX]

If you're a crazy mac-zealot, vote "negative"... J/K.

Anyone know anything about the DRM that will be used (or is it security by obscurity)... or the bitrates of the music?

[MorganX]

Weak, very weak. This isn't even a real effort.

[Daschund]

So, they're launching a music download service that works only with new players and new discs? Doesn't look very promising to me...

"Hey, look! Get your songs here for .99 and then buy a new MiniDisc player and some new discs, otherwise you won't be able to listen to your song!"

[PlaceofDis]

the only way people are going to use this is if they have a minidisc player because of the ATRAC format, which sucks anyways because the compression is so high that you lose a lot of quality, i dont thing this service will last if it keeps this format, iTunes works because of the popularity of the iPod, but the minidiscs are not all that popular as far as i know

oh yeah i forgot, the minidiscs wont work with macs - big surprise and the new connect service says this:

We're sorry.

We know you are interested in using the Connect music store. Unfortunately SonicStage only works on Windows 98SE and above.

We have no immediate plans to support other operating systems at this time. However, we believe this is an important user base and we hope to support it in the future.

Thank you for your interest.

big surprise there too right?

[JereIC]

If you're a crazy mac-zealot, vote "negative"... J/K.

Anyone know anything about the DRM that will be used (or is it security by obscurity)... or the bitrates of the music?

I believe the DRM is called "MagicGate". It's pretty standard restrictions, unlimited copying to players, five burns to audio CD, five to MP3 CD (which I guess would be without restrictions), and sharing between three computers. The format is ATRAC, and is encoded at 132 kbs. I don't know how the auido quality compares to AAC or WMA (that is, does 132 kbs sound better or worse than 128 kbs AAC).

My major beef is that Sony, being a record company itself, doesn't try to cut music prices and drum up business. Since they make pretty much total profit from the sales, they could stand to reduce their price down to 75c or even 49c and sell a lot more music, which would drive up demand for their high capacity media players, and might convince the other record companies to slash their royalties as well.

[germ war]

In a sink-or-swim scenario, Sony has chosen "sink". This looks like pretty poor planning on their behalf.

[greg75]

While songs are similarly priced to the rest of the industry ($.99/song), Sony will be using the ATRAC song format, making it incompatible with most MP3 players and the iPod.
If Sony had used AAC instead of ATRAC it would not have made any difference. The underlying format doesn't matter once you lock it up with DRM. Since Apple refuses to license FairPlay, there's no way Sony could have made their service iPod compatible (Sony selling MP3 without DRM is not very realistic).

[dongmin]

the only way people are going to use this is if they have a minidisc player because of the ATRAC format, which sucks anyways because the compression is so high that you lose a lot of quality, i dont thing this service will last if it keeps this format, iTunes works because of the popularity of the iPod, but the minidiscs are not all that popular as far as i know.

The Minidisc has its advantages. Their players DO support multiple formats, including mp3 and wma, and not just ATRAC. Minidisc also has WAY better battery life than most mp3 players, including one model that claims 58 hours of playback. And minidisc is skip-free.

The downsides are that the ATRAC format is not that great, definitely worse than AAC 128kbps. And if you end up listening to mp3s and wmas, the minidisc can't hold that much. Finally, sony products usually carry a premium.

Can't figure out what the music service is gonna do for Sony's bottom line. Do they really think that the music service will somehow popularize the ATRAC format? What are those people smoking?

[dongmin]

My major beef is that Sony, being a record company itself, doesn't try to cut music prices and drum up business. Since they make pretty much total profit from the sales, they could stand to reduce their price down to 75c or even 49c and sell a lot more music, which would drive up demand for their high capacity media players, and might convince the other record companies to slash their royalties as well. What is your beef exactly? It's not like Sony has a monopoly in any of the markets. They should be free to leverage their existing assets to promote new products. After all, isn't that what Apple does with its ipods and iTMS? I invite Sony to lower their prices. Maybe, although unlikely, it'll spur a market-wide reduction in download prices.

[iBot]

Sometimes, Sony just loves its technology to death.

[macridah]

Sony must be crazy if they think they could come into this game so late, and with a proprietory format.

[coolfactor]

So, they're launching a music download service that works only with new players and new discs? Doesn't look very promising to me...

"Hey, look! Get your songs here for .99 and then buy a new MiniDisc player and some new discs, otherwise you won't be able to listen to your song!"

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?

[acidrock]

What are they planning to sell? Old Mariah Carey records? lol j/k

[acidrock]

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?

well for starters you don't have to have an iPod or disks to play them!

[Quixcube]

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?

*clap* *clap* *clap* Thank you.

The only difference is that Apple did it first, and that Apple has a rabidly faithful user base with which to drum up initial interest. Once the ball got rolling it rolled.

[bertagert]

Yeah, I don't see it being successful in the USA. The iPod has the crown for now and for the next few years. They should have used WMA instead if they wanted to play the game.

[Trowaman]

*clap* *clap* *clap* Thank you.

The only difference is that Apple did it first, and that Apple has a rabidly faithful user base with which to drum up initial interest. Once the ball got rolling it rolled.

eh, we do what we can . . . :cool:

[gensor]

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?

Yes, everyone wants a mini.

[bertagert]

Yes, everyone wants a mini.

Actually, mini disc are hugh in japan and other areas just like the ipod is here in the usa and europe.

[J-Squire]

well for starters you don't have to have an iPod or disks to play them!

Well this raises the question - can u play these ATRAC songs on your PC like iTunes? If so, then this is the exact same model as Apple, as you have to buy an iPod if you want to take your music with you.

[mac15]

iPods are the rage down here, even my computer illiterate mates want em

[jxyama]

And minidisc is skip-free.

The downsides are that the ATRAC format is not that great, definitely worse than AAC 128kbps. And if you end up listening to mp3s and wmas, the minidisc can't hold that much. Finally, sony products usually carry a premium.

MD is not skip free. it's very hard, much harder than CD for sure, but it's not skip free. it's a spinning optical disc read by laser - it will skip just like a CD if shaken enough.

i also believe ATRAC is not as bad as you make it sound. i have over 500 MD recorded, some of them using MDLP2, and they are just fine. i don't see obvious evidence that they are any worse than AAC for most music.

that said, as much as i like sony, they are definitely well on their way to failure. if anyone wants to beat iTMS, the first thing they need to do is beat iPod. make a sick arse portable player everybody wants - then you will be able to sell them music to fill those players. players are much more expensive than music - if you can sell the player, you will be able to sell the music. if you can't sell the player, offering music will not sell the player any better.

[sushi]

So, they're launching a music download service that works only with new players and new discs? Doesn't look very promising to me...

"Hey, look! Get your songs here for .99 and then buy a new MiniDisc player and some new discs, otherwise you won't be able to listen to your song!"
The new system will work with current MD Players as well. The new format brings about more storage space but is not required for this service to work.

This is outstanding for those who own and use a Minidisc system which is very popular here in Japan.

Sushi

[acidrock]

Well this raises the question - can u play these ATRAC songs on your PC like iTunes? If so, then this is the exact same model as Apple, as you have to buy an iPod if you want to take your music with you.

um... no you can burn them to Cd

[Analog Kid]

So McDonalds dumped a potential cross marketing deal with Apple for this? Musta been cheaper for McD's because it certainly won't have broader appeal...

[Gyroscope]

Call me crazy but I love MiniDisc. Over the past couple of years I had nothing but praise for it. Maybe its just me,but must have that spinning (disc,LP) feeling when listening to music. :) Ipod is nice and everything but I just don't like being bound to computer to transfer my music onto player. With MiniDisc you can swap discs with yor mates(instead of "lets go to my place and i ll transfer some songs onto your iPod" :)),can record live shows,can record from analog sources etc. Look Sony may never make anything out of MiniDisc (judging by the past) but these devices are not crap by any means.

As for online music stores,well i don't really care. I am still buying my records with added tangible feeling to it.

Cheers

[Analog Kid]

Actually, mini disc are hugh in japan and other areas just like the ipod is here in the usa and europe.

Yeah, I just rented a car in Japan and couldn't listen to my iPod while driving because all the cars came with MD players rather than cassette players...

I think people are really underestimating the potential for a Japanese-owned outlet into the Japanese market. Sony's service can survive on that alone... They won't lose money because they won't pay royalties on their own stuff.

[Dahl]

The real force Sony has is their deep pockets, they have enough $ to play along for a while, even if it's a crap service.

[PretendPCuser]

Actually, mini disc are hugh in japan and other areas just like the ipod is here in the usa and europe.

I'm being honestly curious, are they launching Connect in Japan as well? If they are doing it here and not there, that seems counterintuitive. (especially if they own the music rights, they should be able to offer anywhere in the world, which might actually give them a "first to Europe/Asia" which might give them a fighting chance.)

As far as the US market goes? I'm a bit skeptical for the reasons mentioned previously by other posters. MiniDisc Players were cool, when the other MP3 players on the market were 64Mb.

But hey, as the immutable laws of branding go, it's all good for Apple.

[daRAT]

Yes, everyone wants a mini.

A Cooper Mini yes ;] I already have a mini-ipod :>

[ZildjianKX]

The cool thing to me is that Sony isn't the only manufacturer of minidisc players, unlike Apple is with the iPod *cough*

[Dippo]

Call me crazy but I love MiniDisc. Over the past couple of years I had nothing but praise for it. Maybe its just me,but must have that spinning (disc,LP) feeling when listening to music. :) Ipod is nice and everything but I just don't like being bound to computer to transfer my music onto player. With MiniDisc you can swap discs with yor mates(instead of "lets go to my place and i ll transfer some songs onto your iPod" :)),can record live shows,can record from analog sources etc. Look Sony may never make anything out of MiniDisc (judging by the past) but these devices are not crap by any means.

As for online music stores,well i don't really care. I am still buying my records with added tangible feeling to it.

I also have a Minidisc player, and while the hardware is actually quite good, the software is terrible. All music (non-DRM) has to be "check out" when added to a minidisc and the OpenMG interface is the worst. I eventually had to use Realplayer to transfer the songs, and that was barely tolerable.

The minidisc player I have is able to play almost 50 hours on one AA battery and the discs only cost like $2 a piece. So it does have it's good points, but the bad points are far too great.

If someone could figure out how to use iTunes to transfer to Minidisc, then maybe I would still use it, but as it stands now, my minidisc player is on the shelf unused.

[gwuMACaddict]

And minidisc is skip-free


nope
i had one of the original minidiscs for jogging. it was worthless. skipped all the time. and i hated that you could really only record once on a disc... i think this technology is useless... why doesnt anyone do anything with flash memory yet?

[Gyroscope]

I also have a Minidisc player, and while the hardware is actually quite good, the software is terrible. All music (non-DRM) has to be "check out" when added to a minidisc and the OpenMG interface is the worst. I eventually had to use Realplayer to transfer the songs, and that was barely tolerable.

The minidisc player I have is able to play almost 50 hours on one AA battery and the discs only cost like $2 a piece. So it does have it's good points, but the bad points are far too great.

If someone could figure out how to use iTunes to transfer to Minidisc, then maybe I would still use it, but as it stands now, my minidisc player is on the shelf unused.

Good news,there is new version of OpenMG,SonicStage V2.0. It allows transfers from MiniDisc to PC and it is bit less restrictive.Now you can transfer files in Mp3 and other few formats. User interface has also been improved. Get it from here:
http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=3924&sid=252272fa4811770d9bd8352ff7263ba7

[J-Squire]

um... no you can burn them to Cd

Sony says Connect songs will work on portable CD players and Walkman devices that use Memory Stick removable flash media.

Both services can burn CDs by the sounds of things.

[cxny]

The Pepsi promotion was already pushing it, but MacDonalds? This co-branding strategy merely dilutes both companies IMHO.

[Gyroscope]

nope
i had one of the original minidiscs for jogging. it was worthless. skipped all the time. and i hated that you could really only record once on a disc... i think this technology is useless... why doesnt anyone do anything with flash memory yet?

Mate I dont know what are you talking about??? You can re-record (according to Sony) 1 mil times without any loss of sound quality. All new MiniDiscs have G-Protection system. They have upto 5 minutes of read buffer and no matter what you do,they never skip.

[J-Squire]

"We're not trying to convert customers from one paying service to another," says Jay Samit, Connect's general manager. He wants to lure people who download from free services such as Kazaa and Morpheus to Sony's pay service. "This is about broadening the entire audience."

I have changed my tune (pardon the pun) on this music service. It sounds like they're not trying to directly compete with iTMS, but instead recognise a need that their customers have (those who have already bought sony music devices) and are trying to service that need. Sounds good to me.

[raynegus]

That is a slimy move on the part of Sony. No creative effort at all.

[Dippo]

nope
i had one of the original minidiscs for jogging. it was worthless. skipped all the time. and i hated that you could really only record once on a disc... i think this technology is useless... why doesnt anyone do anything with flash memory yet?


I also have to disagree. The minidisc player I have doesn't have a skipping problem while jogging, or while doing anything else.

Maybe you have an older model, but the MZ-N510 that I bought a year ago didn't have skipping problems.

[JGowan]

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?1) iTunes Music Store is both for MAC and PC.

2) You can listen to your purchased music on some KICK-ASS software that does a ton of stuff (and just keeps getting better and better by the way) ... also for MAC and PC. iTunes is without a doubt the best jukebox software there is ... PERIOD.

3) The site is intergrated into the Software and not some browser (How cool is that!?!)

4) The site also KICKS ASS. (Being on a Mac, I didn't see the INSIDE of the sony store, but the storefront Blows.)

5) Burn unlimited copies to CD (changing order even slightly after 7 burns) vs. 5 burns to Audio CD/5 burns to MP3 CD [according to JereIC])

6) Songs sound amazing in AAC format.

7) Can play on the AWARD-WINNING IPOD!

8) Apple had the balls to get this whole thing started in the first place!!

[rikers_mailbox]

I think Sony, like Apple, has realized that there is no money in 'The Store'. iTMS is only used to drive iPod sales, Jobs has made this clear. Likewise, this Sony "Connect" thing is intended just to boost sales of Sony products that basicallly already existed. Nothing to see here folks, please move aside.

. . .and MiniDiscs? wtf? Those have been a flop for years! Give it up, Sony.

[coolsoldier]

Minidiscs aren't popular enough (at least in U.S.) to have any kind of marketing appeal for the service.

The one thing I've heard so far that gives this service an edge is the ability to burn to mp3 cds. A lot of CD players, including car stereos can play mp3s from cds but not AACs. So, I'm thinking that being able to burn mp3 cds might turn out to be a big advantage -- it's one of the things I miss from the MP3 days.

Also, anybody know what kind of success they've had in negotiating with other labels? I'd think labels might be reluctant to let other labels sell their stuff (since the label running the store could adjust prices to make their own music more lucrative, and in a proprietary format like ATRAC, that's a big risk because consumers can't switch)

[dontmatter]

Hmm, this is a tough one to call. On the one hand, phew, no WMA or compatibility with any popular players in the USA or 3rd party players. That would have provided apple some serious competition on it's own ground, but it looks like that will be waiting for microsoft (and here I must wonder, is it better apple and ms head to head, or have a third party?). But, I think sony was smart with this one, finding it's own new attributes so it can divide the market and two, and give each player it's own niche. And, it's really smart, b/c this will boom in japan, and not fall off there, either. If you want to sell it globally, japan is not at all a bad place to start. Plus, they now have a market that's going to be all theirs for a good while, making them start as apple's equal, globally.

Anyone wanna list a good set of specs on mini-disc players? How big are they, how much do they hold, how much do they cost, etc.?

[funkywhat2]

i tried installing it on my wintel, it doesn't let you specify a drive to install it on. it has to be on the boot drive. wtf is that, are they scanning your drive and sending reports back to sony each time you boot up?

[LethalWolfe]

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?

Apple latched it's service onto the best selling player out there. Sony latched it's onto a format that has never, and probably will never, be considered a success at the consumer level in any way, shape, or form. There is a huge difference between riding a huge wave of popularity and trying to pull your own prodcut out of the gutter it has lived in for years.


EDIT: Maybe this isn't part of the apeal for everyone but one of the biggest reasons I want an iPod is so I can all of my music w/me in a very small, convient, easy to use device. I don't want to replace my CD wallet w/a MiniDsic wallet, or a Flash memory wallet. I don't want to fumble w/media going, "Gee, which one did I put that really Blind Guardian song on?" or go hunting around my flat saying, "Fudge, where did I put that darn disc?" If I have to screw around w/media I'll save myself some dough and just keep screwing around w/my CDs.


Lethal

[ClimbingTheLog]

i also believe ATRAC is not as bad as you make it sound. i have over 500 MD recorded, some of them using MDLP2, and they are just fine. i don't see obvious evidence that they are any worse than AAC for most music.

The original ATRAC was really bad, a 3-subband coder. But to be fair, this was a few years before mp2 was even standardized. It was old bad technology.

The newer ATRAC is supposed to be better, but what's the point of jumping onto yet another Sony proprietary wagon? Betamax, MiniDisc, MemoryStick, now Connect, where's the value to the consumer? It's all value for Sony and their product just isn't that compelling. They've got it backwards.

[Gyroscope]

Althought I think that Apple's combination (integration) of its music store and venerable IPod is still unmatched, I wouldn't diss Sony that quickly. No matter what you think about their music store/device package you have to remember that sony has much more money and muscle to push their product. Sony owns 1/5 of all commercial music available,owns TV/Movie studios(to advertise through) ,game console division (PS3 will certainly be able to download and play music). They can reach milions and milions of people. In my opinion Sony is bigger threat to Apple (in online music business) then Microsoft or.

[neutrino23]

I haven't been able to tell if this is multinational or just the US. If it includes Japan and other parts of Asia that could be good for Sony. There are many MD users over there and some might be tempted to stay with the format now that it has been enhanced by the music store.

For the US, it is hard to believe this can work. The early adopters have already bought something like six million players of various sorts. On the other hand, that means there are a couple hundred million people in the US without some sort of a portable music player. Over the long term there is a possibility for them to make some success of this. I don't see it being a major player but over the long term as this sort of thing spreads internationally they have a chance to succeed. They have already written off many of the costs of MD so it isn't too expensive for them.

Also, this is not quite the same as the Beta/VHS issue. That market was destined to settle on one format. With players you don't really care what other people use as long as your own player can still get software online.

Finally, I have a couple of MDs but haven't used them in years. Not since I discovered iTunes and the ability to record on my PowerBook. Managing boxes of MDs is just a pain. Boosting the size to around 1GB will just make life more complicated. It could work if you had a really small music collection. Then you could just use one disk.

[fener]

nope
i had one of the original minidiscs for jogging. it was worthless. skipped all the time. and i hated that you could really only record once on a disc... i think this technology is useless... why doesnt anyone do anything with flash memory yet?


MiniDiscs are built to be OVERWRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES!

U can record on them, then delete, then record, then delete....

Also, with Lp2 and Lp4, Minidiscs are SKIP FREE!

Also
You gotta check this OUT!
1 GIG of data on 1 MD! -- Sony's New HI-MD TEch.

http://www.minidisco.com/mz-nh1.html
Here is a Very VERy cool Hi-MD player which will be available in a month or so:http://www.minidisct.com/productpic/sony_mz-nh1_1.jpg

[Abstract]

Other than the fact that ATRAC is supposed to suck arse, the service itself, along with the minidisk, aren't bad. The service will probably be similar to most other online music stores around.

Minidisks are very difficult to skip, whereas the iPod.....well, a 7 minute anti-skip feature that doesn't have a continuously refreshing memory buffer is quite useless for serious joggers. This explains all the complaints about iPods that skipped so much after 3 minutes of jogging that they were unusable. Or how about the complaints of iPods with dead HD's. Why oh why would anyone want to jog with a HD-based player?

The minidisk player is small, will have a huuuuge carrying capacity later on, and gives amazing battery life. I have 2 friends with minidisk players who love theirs. I love AA batteries and battery life as I realize that I'm not always going to be near a power outlet, but I'm always going to be able to get AA batteries no matter where I am in the world. You can't do that with an iPod with 6 hour battery life.

iPod isn't really much better than minidisk, if at all. Both have their downsides, if you're too blind to see. Apple loyalty goes too far, sometimes. I wouldn't buy a minidisk ever since it isn't compatible with my PB, that's all. However, I'm aiming to buy an iRiver 256 MB flash player with 20 hour battery life. No iPod for me. :)

It would have been smart for Sony to support WMA as well, which they'll probably do eventually.

[chasingapple]

I am so glad I own a Mac, thankyou Apple, thankyou for iTunes and the iPod, thankyou for the Macintosh computer, and thankyou for always being the best at what you do.

P.S. Mr. Jobs, can you bring back the cube please?

Cheers.

[chasingapple]

MiniDiscs are built to be OVERWRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES!

U can record on them, then delete, then record, then delete....

Also, with Lp2 and Lp4, Minidiscs are SKIP FREE!

Also
You gotta check this OUT!
1 GIG of data on 1 MD! -- Sony's New HI-MD TEch.

http://www.minidisco.com/mz-nh1.html
Here is a Very VERy cool Hi-MD player which will be available in a month or so:http://www.minidisct.com/productpic/sony_mz-nh1_1.jpg

Man that thing is OOOGLY!

[Abstract]

It doesn't look THAT bad. I wish the iPods were more Powerbook in appearance than iBook... :)

[chasingapple]

It doesn't look THAT bad. I wish the iPods were more Powerbook in appearance than iBook... :)

No really it is ugly.

[Bhennies]

I had a Minidisc. I will never buy a Sony product again.

[fener]

It seems more companies choose to adopt DOCKS for their products after the success of the iPod Dock.

Dock for MZ-H1 is pretty cool. (it says thats MD player is out of Magnesium, not alluminum) I think iRiver is also coming up with Dock for there next releases.

[AndrewMT]

Why has no-one mentioned Sony Connect compatibility with Sony's portable game system PSP? The PSP is going to do for the portable gaming world what the iPod did for portable music market. Millions of people are going to have these! That's why sony is sticking with the minidisc format and the larger capacity disc (UMD-Universal Media Disk) that fits in the PSP.

http://domino.sbsnet.nl/upload/252114_340_1054127743177-psp_umddisk_337x253.jpg
http://www.theregister.co.uk/media/1233.jpg

[Abstract]

You're all foooogly!!!

Don't some of the iRiver have docks already? I know they have new models with an internal battery as opposed to the AA battery models (NOOOO!!!), but I'm not sure about the docks. I really don't like docks anyway, so I'm hoping that the answer is no. ;)

[bertagert]

Maybe this isn't part of the apeal for everyone but one of the biggest reasons I want an iPod is so I can all of my music w/me in a very small, convient, easy to use device.

I'm totally with you on that. I bought my ipod so I could use it when walking around, hanging out on the deck, working out/skiing, driving in the car, and listening to the home stereo. I do all this with my entire music collection in something the size of my wallet. My ipod has replaced my hugh 300 disc player next to the home stereo and also my car cd player. Not to mention that I no longer have to carry all my cd's with me (or become POed because I forgot the one cd in the home cd player).

A mini disc player just won't cut it for me as I want all my music with me, no matter where I go, all the time.

[Savage Henry]

I love the way all the pretender services don't support the best selling player in the universe !??! Even Apple aknowledged the need to support WMA.

They'll make a cool looking piece of kit, eventually. But it will go the way of the mini-disc.

They're all fools, I tells ya, fools!

[frankly]

I have changed my tune (pardon the pun) on this music service. It sounds like they're not trying to directly compete with iTMS, but instead recognise a need that their customers have (those who have already bought sony music devices) and are trying to service that need. Sounds good to me.

Is that really how you read that quote? I read it as a really dumb executive that thinks he is going to get someone that is stealing music to suddenly pay for it. For the life of me I can't figure out how someone thinks the people stealing music are going to be their market.

Frank

[frankly]

MiniDiscs are built to be OVERWRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES!

U can record on them, then delete, then record, then delete....

Also, with Lp2 and Lp4, Minidiscs are SKIP FREE!

Also
You gotta check this OUT!
1 GIG of data on 1 MD! -- Sony's New HI-MD TEch.

http://www.minidisco.com/mz-nh1.html
Here is a Very VERy cool Hi-MD player which will be available in a month or so:

It may "look" cool but how practical is it? The thing that has made the iPod a blockbuster is the incredible display/UI/controls. The thing is so damn easy to operate. I haven't seen any player make it that easy to access thousands of songs yet.

Frank

[Doctor Q]

Nobody said anything about the music to be offered by Sony's "Connect" service. Sure, they have the Sony music library, but did the competing record companies give them the same deal that Apple got? Have BMG/EMI/Universal/Warner Brothers agreed to let Sony sell their music and get a cut of the profits? Aren't they worried that Sony can favor (e.g., promote and discount) its own library over theirs?

[SiliconAddict]

I'll try just to see if they have any music that iTMS doesn't have. If nothing else I can buy, burn to a CD in standard uncompressed WAV then reencode in AAC. I'm installing now and not impressed that can you can't download the entire installer its one of those install from the server things.
I've never been that impressed with Sony software so we will see.


[Update 1: The installer is convoluted as hell. At least 4-6 installer sessions for each peice of software it installs. Plus the required reboot.]

[Update 2: OK I’m dealing with only laptop speakers, good laptop speakers with a sub in it but laptop nonetheless, and the sound quality for the previews SUCKS. I have noticed there are some Sony Music CD’s that I want. I’ll try and d/l one tomorrow and see how well the experience is. I can say this. The interface is a pure joke. It looks like it was designed by a two year old. The entire GUI is flat and not very pretty to look at. Normally I wouldn’t care how pretty an app is but since I spend so much time dealing with my music App I want the interface nice, clean, and easy to use. AFAICT SonicStage ain’t it.
Since this service was primarily designed for minidisk and since it blows like a hurricane I don’t think Apple has anything to worry about yet.

[Windowlicker]

this will make even more people see the superiority if iTMS. i don't really think this is gonna steal any customers from apple. so, let's welcome sony's service!

oh and what comes to atrac, i don't think it's that bad. i've used it on my md (that i sold last summer to get an ipod) and it's very good.. or well, now that I think of it, it only compressed the music to half the original size (LP2) and I could already tell the difference ;I SO I'M TAKING MY WORDS BACK!

[Windowlicker]

The interface is a pure joke. It looks like it was designed by a two year old.

I totally agree here.. why the hell does the app need that space behind the actual windows?! it takes more room whan it's supposed to. it's also very nice to see that they haven't had the talent or will to make an own interface for Mac :P I have OSX so that I don't have to use windows. so sony has done pretty much everything wrong here...

[dontmatter]

MiniDiscs are built to be OVERWRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES!

U can record on them, then delete, then record, then delete....

Also, with Lp2 and Lp4, Minidiscs are SKIP FREE!

Also
You gotta check this OUT!
1 GIG of data on 1 MD! -- Sony's New HI-MD TEch.

http://www.minidisco.com/mz-nh1.html
Here is a Very VERy cool Hi-MD player which will be available in a month or so:http://www.minidisct.com/productpic/sony_mz-nh1_1.jpg

How much? and is that cylinder in the lower right ATTACHED! good lord...that would not fit well in a pocket. looks smaller than an ipod otherwise, but shape is more important than volume.

Edit: OK, I checked the site, clearly the cylinder is part of it's dock, and so that's OK. Looks nice and small, that's a plus. But, $400????? For 1 gig of music? And it's not even out yet? Jeeze, a mini carries 4x the music! And yeah, minidiscs may make it have infinite capacity, and be smaller than CD's, but.... I know I'd lose them, break them, not know what's on what and have trouble listening to the music I want, when I want.

Not to mention, look at the screen. How are you going to browse your music with that? I guess if you only have one gig, but....

I'd go with flash before I'd go with that, and of course ipod beats all of that. Nomads and stuff beat it to, I'd say.

Replaceable batteries, I assume with a long life, and to a lesser degree the option for multiple discs/rewritting and it's small size are still definate pluses. Not worth it to me, but it makes it's own market with that.

[dontmatter]

still don't know, although I would assume-this in japan? Anywhere else? (besides US, of course)

[sushi]

Man that thing is OOOGLY!
Actually, they are quite nice in person.

And for those who ride the train to work, much nicer to use than an iPod because of the feature rich remote control.

Sushi

[dontmatter]

Man that thing is OOOGLY!

That's just your mac bias (and, slightly better taste b/c mac stuff does look better). It doesn't have that pure aesthetic appeal of apple stuff, but the brushed metal, etc.... it does look pretty good, at least high tech and expensive.

Of course, still not my choice on functionality....who the hell doesn't give you an LCD screen where you can actually see something, but does give you the option to record? LCD is essential, recording should be done by third party products. Then again, big difference is that there are 3rd party minidisc players...

[sushi]

It may "look" cool but how practical is it? The thing that has made the iPod a blockbuster is the incredible display/UI/controls. The thing is so damn easy to operate. I haven't seen any player make it that easy to access thousands of songs yet.
Very practical. That is why they sell very well here in Japan.

Sushi

[aswitcher]

Nobody said anything about the music to be offered by Sony's "Connect" service. Sure, they have the Sony music library, but did the competing record companies give them the same deal that Apple got? Have BMG/EMI/Universal/Warner Brothers agreed to let Sony sell their music and get a cut of the profits? Aren't they worried that Sony can favor (e.g., promote and discount) its own library over theirs?


Good point. Sony love proprietry stuff like sony memory stciks etc that no one else can use, but without the song range they wont get far...

[Windowlicker]

In a sink-or-swim scenario, Sony has chosen "sink". This looks like pretty poor planning on their behalf.

this made me think one thing. I started thinking about the history, where apple has been the leader for several years. when the imac was introduced, all my friends using pc said it's not worth a crap. well, we all know what happened with the lovely colorful iMac...

then we have USB, FW, etc etc etc... and now, I realized it just now, that before iTMS there were some online music stores (that didn't quite make it), but now, when once again an invention by apple has been a success, everyone's trying desperately to get onboard -- even SORNY, which indeed has chosen "sink".

[greg75]

I love the way all the pretender services don't support the best selling player in the universe !??!
There's not much Sony can do about Apple refusing to license PlayFair.

[iMeowbot]

the only way people are going to use this is if they have a minidisc player

Well sure, I think that's kind of the point though. Sony also make CD and solid state MP3 players that are compatible with this service, so they're covering a lot of market space that Apple aren't even trying to reach.

because of the ATRAC format, which sucks anyways because the compression is so high that you lose a lot of quality,

That was true 10 years ago with ATRAC 1, but the Connect service is using ATRAC 3plus encoded at 132kbps. That's not shabby at all.

There are about as many ATRAC players in circulation as iPods, so don't count this offering out just yet.

[duklaprague]

well i've sworn by my minidisc walkman for years now - the two i've had have served me well - it always surprised me how or why MD was considered a failure - all the advantages that sony pushed really were advantages, and not just hype or talk. the advantages of tape - small, portable *plus* the advantages of cd - digital, easy track access *plus* sturdier than cd with the case, more flexible than cd with the join, split and move tracks functionality - all really good stuff IMO.

so when mp3 players and the ipod first appeared I had no techno lust for either. the sony mp3 players looked the part, but what was all that crap with the memory stick? prohibitively expensive for relatively small storage.

however, now I have the powerbook and itunes (which wipes the floor with anything else), and am actually using it for listening to music and creating a music library on the laptop - not something WMA ever inspired me to do.

and now iPods have such huge storage capacity, the combination of the greatness of itunes, the coolness factor of the iPod, and the whole idea of having my entire music collection in my pocket, and the ability to produce endless playlists at the click of a mouse without faffing around with blank discs, then the time has come to hang up my trusty MD player and invest in an iPod.

now if only we had ITMS over here....

Iain

[rt_brained]

In a sink-or-swim scenario, Sony has chosen "sink". This looks like pretty poor planning on their behalf.
It's not poor planning, it's their business model.


Sony must be crazy if they think they could come into this game so late, and with a proprietory format.
That's one of the odd things about Sony. Their war chest is so big that they can afford to develop, promote and maintain proprietary formats 'til the cows come home.


How is this any different than Apple's strategy?
Apple places innovation over profits. Sony places profit before innovation. Apple is a leader. Sony is a follower. Apple wants everything it brands to be the best in the industry and often makes its stuff cross-platform compatible. Sony would settle for popularity over quality any day and won't offer compatibility outside of its product line unless forced to.


Actually, mini disc are hugh in japan and other areas just like the ipod is here in the usa and europe.
Credit Sony's near cult-like following and bullet-proof brand image in Japan.


It's often been rumored that Sony might one day buy Apple. But when you look past the money you'll find the two companies could never agree to a merger. Beyond the basic philisophical and cultural differences at play, I just can't see Jobs playing second fiddle to anyone.

[yujini]

The Minidisc has its advantages. Their players DO support multiple formats, including mp3 and wma, and not just ATRAC. Minidisc also has WAY better battery life than most mp3 players, including one model that claims 58 hours of playback. And minidisc is skip-free.

The downsides are that the ATRAC format is not that great, definitely worse than AAC 128kbps. And if you end up listening to mp3s and wmas, the minidisc can't hold that much. Finally, sony products usually carry a premium.

Can't figure out what the music service is gonna do for Sony's bottom line. Do they really think that the music service will somehow popularize the ATRAC format? What are those people smoking?

Minidiscs do not support wma or even mp3. If you have ever used their netMD software, you would realize that you'd have to convert them into ATRAC in order to be able to play it on an MD.

Also, ATRAC is not worse than AAC 128kbps. ATRAC supports up to 256kbps (if i recall correctly). The quality is definitely better than AAC 128kbps.

Anyways, Sony is again going to fail. They try to enforce something they can't. Either you do what the customers want, or you'll start losing profit and that's exactly what Sony is doing right now.

[denm316]

the only good thing about this is that it is another music store that does not use wma, given it doesnt use AAC but at least its no wma

[JDOG_]

I used to have a MiniDisc player, in fact I still do and it was a joy to listen to. My major beef with Sony was the proprietary technology barriers they chose to put up. The most major being the jukebox software which was an absolute joke. Even if you had Mp3's or WMA's it needed to be converted into one of three types of ATRAC formats in three different quality ranges.
The jukebox was kind of a joke with very little playlist support and it would keep both versions of the files, both the original and then the processed ATRAC version, effectively increasing the need for hard drive space by an extra 30% or so depending on how much of a qualitywh0re you were.

My second peice of beef was that information couldn't be taken off the minidiscs for security reasons, meaning that if you had put a bunch of music on a disc, there was no way to ever get that music back off it...leading to piles and piles of minidiscs laying around that really couldn't be modified much more than being added on to or re-arranged.

Speed-wise I also had some beef with the minidiscs since the transfer time on my model (within the last 2 years) was touted as "32x faster" which would have been true if I were to stick with an 64 kbps low-rate music suitable to that of a tape player. Even so, filling up four hours of music still took close to 30-45 minutes on a reasonably fast PC (933 mhz. at the time).

Sony has kind of shot themselves in the foot on this one...it's obviously not any kind of competition with iTunes as it offers better software which is the key. I still think Sony does an excellent job with design on MD players as I could still easily pick up mine and go use it at the gym (it gets 50 hours of battery and weighs about a cassette tape with 1 AA battery). But I'd prefer my 30gb iPod thanks :)

My bet is this thing lasts for a year before failing hideously.

[SiliconAddict]

\
Anyways, Sony is again going to fail. They try to enforce something they can't. Either you do what the customers want, or you'll start losing profit and that's exactly what Sony is doing right now.

Actually I consider Sony, Apple’s unsuccessful counterpart. They try and pull an Apple time and again by going their own way and making proprietary, yet beautiful, stuff. The diff is they typically fall flat on their face.

[bubbagump]

I feel that I need to dispell this myth. ITUNES IS NOT RUNNING IN THE RED. It may not be very profitable, but it is not unprofitable, according to the Wall Street Journal. Supposedly Itunes has already turned a small profit.
Aside from this, MD seems pretty regressive, and I think it may do better in the international market. My roommate bought a MD player over Christmas, and I was thinking "why did you waste your money on this?" He is Korean. His does not even have a USB connection. Also, I am not totally sure MD is totally just a laser. Somewhere I read a long time ago that the laser alters magnetic properties of the disc.

Bubba

[sinisterdesign]

How is this any different than Apple's strategy?

exactly. love Apple, love some Sony products, but this attitude of "we're going to do whatever the hell we want & we'll tell the end user what they want b/c we control the technology" is getting kind of tired.

i've bought a buttload of songs off iTMS, but i sure would like the option to download 192k AAC files, which is what i rip all my CDs at.

my first "MP3" player was a Sony about 3-4 years ago. great form factor, used those tiny little memory sticks, but i had to convert every frickin' MP3 i had to that kludgy ATRAC format & then going about "checking in" & "checking out" files. obnoxious.

good luck w/ the minidiscs, Sony! i'm going to wait on my 60GB color iPod, thx... ;)

JDOG_ actually nailed it, formats aside, the software goes a LOOOOoong way to set the iPod/iTunes/iTMS apart from the pack. i HATED the stupid jukebox software i had on my PC laptop (i kept a Toshiba around for a year just to update the music on my music player. what the f*??). i'm sure Sony has improved open it by now (for god's sake, i hope so), but it's just such a joy to rip, organize, upload, etc. all my music in iTunes. so it doesn't have the thousands of skins that Winamp does & it doesn't support all the formats out there, but it's so clean & precise that it just makes me happy...

[Frobozz]

Frankly, I consider Apple having lost the McDonald's deal a good thing. I know I live in a social microcosm (Manhattan), but McDonald's is GHETTO.

[jxyama]

Somewhere I read a long time ago that the laser alters magnetic properties of the disc.

MD uses laser at two different power settings. more powerful laser is used to align the polarizable switches (not sure exactly what, though) on the disc. this is recording. less powerful laser is used to read those switches. this is play back.

magnets are used to record song titles, disc titles, song lengths, etc. but not the actual music.

[jxyama]

Actually I consider Sony, Apple’s unsuccessful counterpart. They try and pull an Apple time and again by going their own way and making proprietary, yet beautiful, stuff. The diff is they typically fall flat on their face.

there was, and undoubtedly will be, a time when exactly the reverse was true.

[jxyama]

It seems more companies choose to adopt DOCKS for their products after the success of the iPod Dock.

Dock for MZ-H1 is pretty cool. (it says thats MD player is out of Magnesium, not alluminum) I think iRiver is also coming up with Dock for there next releases.

sony, sharp and other MD players had docks by late 2000, at the latest, in japan. that is before the original iPod came out.

[Foxer]

I know this isn't exactly on point, but there's been a quite a bit of blind mini-disc trashing here. For a period of almost 2 years (1998-9), before I had a CD burner on my 'puter, I used a mni-disc player on a daily basis. I had a component system at home to burn mixes from CD's and a walkman to listen as walked the mile from Duke's parking lot to the law school. Never had any problems with it at all, great sound and the thing took a beating and still works. (I just tested it). Never skipped and no sound degredation with multiple re-records.

This was before there was any compression of tracks, so it had exactly the same capacity of a CD, which made it easy for me to convert when I got a CD burner. I often look for a reason to reincorporate the MD into my everyday life, but with my iPod there just isn't a reason. Like my dozens of old mnixes on casettes - there just playlists on the iPod now.

[digitalbiker]

This site is ridiculously bias toward Apple! Sony is a great company, makes solid products, and has been successful longer than Apple has even existed.

I am a big Apple fan but the iPod definitely needs improvement. Number one on my list is a compact memory version rather than a HD system. I have gone through 3 iPods already and I can only get an average life of about 18 months out of the iPod HD before it tanks.

Also Sony could not have supported AAC with FairPlay because Apple would not have granted them a license. So it makes sense that Sony supports their own format which is flexible enough to be converted to wma or mp3.

Next, who says that Sony is not working on new jukebox type software to aid in the purchase, download, transfer of Attrac format songs to MD and Memory stick for various players.

Frankly competition is good for Apple otherwise they would sit on their laurels, competition forces Apple to innovate or die. Apple does it's best work when it is under pressure to survive.

Finally, I don't personally download music from itms. I buy cd's and rip my own. Mainly because I have seen proprietary encryption services evolve before. Directv, videocipher, videocipherII, etc. etc. All of these systems get cracked and when they do the companies introduce new encryption. This happens over and over and guess what, the subscriber is the loser.

How will all of the itms users feel when in 3 years AAC fairplay is abandoned and "encryptionofthemonth" is used instead. Now your entire music catalog is frozen in time and your only option is to re-buy everything using the new "encryptionofthemonth" technology with better specs. You might be able to convert from AAC fairplay to "encryptionofthemonth" but it will be at a loss of quality.

Who gets burned? Apple, who get to re-sell their entire catalog? The music industry? The user who bought into the itms scheme?

[Thor74]

Yahoo for Sony!! I see this impacting Apple iPod sales very little as well as iTMS. I am extremly glad Sny pushed for trying to save the mini-disc. Hey, this is from he same company that stopped selling Beta tape players 99' right? (I think that was teh year) Sony loves to hang onto it's propreitary formats adn fights for them until the death. This is good for those that purchased mini-disc players, adn great for us Apple fanatics whom were worried about a real possible contender from Sony. Good news all around.

[call-151]

Let's not forget how Sony entered the US market (those of us old enough to remember). They began with mediocre equipment and undercut the prices of all competitors (at a loss) until they captured huge market share and brand recognition. Given their existing interests in the music industry, they are certainly in a position to attempt this again, and may be willing to cut download prices dramatically in an effort to undermine the competition and gain a long-term lead.

[cgc]

the only way people are going to use this is if they have a minidisc player because of the ATRAC format, which sucks anyways because the compression is so high that you lose a lot of quality, i dont thing this service will last if it keeps this format, iTunes works because of the popularity of the iPod, but the minidiscs are not all that popular as far as i know

oh yeah i forgot, the minidiscs wont work with macs - big surprise and the new connect service says this:


ATRAC has good quality. I don't think you could tell the difference on headphones, on a home stereo you may be able to but most of us can't. I have seen tests where ATRAC was better in almost all regards to MP3, not sure about AAC, however.

I have been using my MiniDisc player with my Mac for years. The only think you don't get is the Net portion where it dumps everthing over USB. I use the USB to fiber optic converter (included) to do everything. Unfortunately, no track information gets transferred (I don't care) and it is done in real-time which is the main negative point.

[fener]

Edit: OK, I checked the site, clearly the cylinder is part of it's dock, and so that's OK. Looks nice and small, that's a plus. But, $400????? For 1 gig of music? And it's not even out yet? Jeeze, a mini carries 4x the music! And yeah, minidiscs may make it have infinite capacity, and be smaller than CD's, but.... I know I'd lose them, break them, not know what's on what and have trouble listening to the music I want, when I want.

Not to mention, look at the screen. How are you going to browse your music with that? I guess if you only have one gig, but....



A mispoint.

There is 1 GiG PER HI-MD , not the MD Player. This is a MD player, and you use minidiscs with it, which each has a gig capacity.

They will retail aroung 7$ each. And the player is to cost 325$, (much higher if you buy through Sony, though; maybe like 400$)

If you make a rough calculation:
7$ * 10 Discs = 70 $ That will give you 10 GIG. Plus, 325$ for the player, you will have 10 GIGS of DATA, not just music, all removable, for under 400$

now, thats very high Cost/Benefit. (count batt life too)

[sethypoo]

"Hey, look! Get your songs here for .99 and then buy a new MiniDisc player and some new discs, otherwise you won't be able to listen to your song!"

You'll probably be able to listen to it on your PC, just not on a portable player. :(

[jxyama]

I have gone through 3 iPods already and I can only get an average life of about 18 months out of the iPod HD before it tanks.

i don't dispute that some of the posts here are extremely biased in favor of apple, but what you said above is impossible. ipod's been out for 3 years. if you had three ipods averaging 18 months, the first one you purchased must have been 4.5 years ago. (unless, of course, you purchase new iPods before the old one dies, but continued to use both new and old ones until they tank.)



If you make a rough calculation:
7$ * 10 Discs = 70 $ That will give you 70 GIG. Plus, 325$ for the player, you will have 70 GIGS of DATA, not just music, all removable, for under 400$

now, thats very high Cost/Benefit.


removable isn't necessarily better. according to your example, to get 70 GB capacity, you will need to carry 6 discs that aren't in the player. that's 6 extra things perhaps some of us don't want to carry.

you could have made the exact same argument against first 5 GB iPod. you could have gotten 5 GB of music/data with mp3 CD player and 7 extra CD-Rs and that would have been a lot cheaper than $500 first gen iPod. however, iPod took off anyway. (i realize MDs are much smaller than CDs, but i think my point still stands.)

you get good capacity for money. but benefit part is arguable.

[jxyama]

Let's not forget how Sony entered the US market (those of us old enough to remember). They began with mediocre equipment and undercut the prices of all competitors (at a loss) until they captured huge market share and brand recognition. Given their existing interests in the music industry, they are certainly in a position to attempt this again, and may be willing to cut download prices dramatically in an effort to undermine the competition and gain a long-term lead.

can you give examples of sony undercutting prices? i personally can't think of any.

[sinisterdesign]

you get good capacity for money. but benefit part is arguable.

yup yup. so i'm glad there's a choice out there & different players for people w/ different priorities. i surely do not want to tote around a stack of MD's and figure out what music i want to listen to and which disc it's on. i want my ENTIRE library with me at all times: at work, in my car, and on my computer at home. i can hit "random" and listen for the next 19 days.

of course, i'm not real keen on taking my iPod jogging w/ me either. it's bulky & i'm a little leary w/ bouncing a hard drive player around too much. it just doesn't seem like a good idea. but, for those that that's a priority, they can buy a really nice flash based (or MD) player & not have to worry about either of those problems.

to each their own: HD, flash, MD, ATRAC, WMA, AAC, etc, etc. i'm just happy in the knowledge that i own the better player... ;)

[dontmatter]

This is odd. I'm not worried about Sony, or music match, or really any of the semi-legitimate competition to itms. Clearly itunes is the best. WMA, with it's many users, still poses a threat, but, it's apples' own damned fault if they sink b/c they don't lisence out AAC and fairplay.

The only one that scares me, that might have anything at the moment on apple, is the one provided by the devil. No, not MS, they're just satanic worshipers. Wal-mart. this is america. People will always go for cheaper. Wal-mart can sell at a loss for as long as it takes to get market share. Anyone know the numbers for them, how they're doing, all that? I looked, and scarily, they actually have some indie stuff and a decent selection, although not as good as itunes, and I'm still dissapointed in theirs.

But, for most people in this country, man... this could be bad news.

[dontmatter]

A mispoint.

There is 1 GiG PER HI-MD , not the MD Player. This is a MD player, and you use minidiscs with it, which each has a gig capacity.

They will retail aroung 7$ each. And the player is to cost 325$, (much higher if you buy through Sony, though; maybe like 400$)

If you make a rough calculation:
7$ * 10 Discs = 70 $ That will give you 70 GIG. Plus, 325$ for the player, you will have 70 GIGS of DATA, not just music, all removable, for under 400$

now, thats very high Cost/Benefit.

First off, yeah, I know it's one gig per MD, and no maximum for the player, but I was assuming one disc because of the limitations I already discussed-you can only have one in at once, it's a pain to cary other discs, keep track of which music is where, etc. you don't want to be swappiing discs out every couple of songs on the subway or walking etc. but you do want to have access to more than one gig at a time, etc. etc.

Also, am I misreading, or is your math wrong? $7*10 Discs=$70, but that is not 70 gig. It's not a dollar a gig, it's seven dollars a gig. 10 Discs * 1 gig/disc=10 gig. You've paid $400 for 10 gigs. That's not high cost benefit. You get twice the storage, and all in once place, with the 400 dollar ipod.

And for that matter, wanna go for the top of the line ipod's capacity, and carry around 40 minidiscs? that's 40*$7=280 dollars, plus the 325 for the player, and boom, you've broken 600 bucks.

The one way in which it is cost effective is that if you have a growing library, you don't have to predict it's final size, and buy that, but you can start at the bottom, and your player can grow with you. If you buy an ipod mini, it becomes too small, you buy a 20 gig, it becomes to small, you buy a 40, then obviously you're paying more.

Of course, there is the other inefficient option with an ipod, of you buying an ipod, the battery running out, buy another of the same size, it dies, buy another. That one I'm still cursing apple for.

[fener]

First off, yeah, I know it's one gig per MD, and no maximum for the player, but I was assuming one disc because of the limitations I already discussed-you can only have one in at once, it's a pain to cary other discs, keep track of which music is where, etc. you don't want to be swappiing discs out every couple of songs on the subway or walking etc. but you do want to have access to more than one gig at a time, etc. etc.

Also, am I misreading, or is your math wrong? $7*10 Discs=$70, but that is not 70 gig. It's not a dollar a gig, it's seven dollars a gig. 10 Discs * 1 gig/disc=10 gig. You've paid $400 for 10 gigs. That's not high cost benefit. You get twice the storage, and all in once place, with the 400 dollar ipod.

And for that matter, wanna go for the top of the line ipod's capacity, and carry around 40 minidiscs? that's 40*$7=280 dollars, plus the 325 for the player, and boom, you've broken 600 bucks.

The one way in which it is cost effective is that if you have a growing library, you don't have to predict it's final size, and buy that, but you can start at the bottom, and your player can grow with you. If you buy an ipod mini, it becomes too small, you buy a 20 gig, it becomes to small, you buy a 40, then obviously you're paying more.

Of course, there is the other inefficient option with an ipod, of you buying an ipod, the battery running out, buy another of the same size, it dies, buy another. That one I'm still cursing apple for.


Yeah, its 10 gig, not 70

[digitalbiker]

i don't dispute that some of the posts here are extremely biased in favor of apple, but what you said above is impossible. ipod's been out for 3 years. if you had three ipods averaging 18 months, the first one you purchased must have been 4.5 years ago.


Not impossible. I bought two gen 1 iPods, one for me and one for my son's graduation from the Apple Store. Both players died between 18-22 months after purchase. Both died from HD failure.

After my first iPod failed, I bought a third iPod. It was a gen 3 and I bought it from BestBuy with a 2 year replacement program. The hard drive died after about 15 months but at least this unit was replaced free by BestBuy.

So when I say I bought 3 ipods that averaged only about 18 months for HD life, I may have even been giving the iPod the benefit of the doubt. I didn't say they died consecutively. Two died in parallel.

[fener]

I agree on why iPod has been a big hit.

Fast and easy controls. its as simple as that.

I 've not seen any players as fast as iPod handling the database.

I used RCA Lyra A/V Jukebox. If I were to compare it with iPod, well I can't. Only thing to compare is that its price. 50 bucks cheaper.

It has a 3.5" screen, which is good. Able to watch movies is good, but there is no way you can use it as an MP3 player. Very slow, and bad U/I.

So, I sent the unit back, bought a new iPod 15 gig, and bought a GBA video player for 35 bucks. (Love the GBA s batt life, around 14-16 hours!)

Happy now.

[SiliconAddict]

Next, who says that Sony is not working on new jukebox type software to aid in the purchase, download, transfer of Attrac format songs to MD and Memory stick for various players.

They may very well be working on something new, but right NOW the software I've seen and played with sucks butt. As for memory stick.
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/soapbox.gif
Three words: Cybershot 707 $1,000. I, and many others, got bent over and ****ed by Sony on their crapstick and their redesign scheme that left our quad digit priced camera in the dust. The camera was debuted in Fall of 2001. I got mine Summer of 2002 and less then 6 months later Sony announced the Memory stick Pro that was not compatible with the 707's and every other memory stick device currently on the market. They threw us a bone with those duo crap things that only go up to 256. I will NEVER again trust Sony proprietary memory crap. EVER. I'd sooner use a memory standard pioneered by Microsoft. If you can't tell I'm the side of homicidal about this subject. I own Sony TV's, speakers, DVD players, PS2 but I will be danged if I will ever touch, breath upon, or glance at a memory stick without going ape****. http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/new_cussing.gif

Frankly competition is good for Apple otherwise they would sit on their laurels, competition forces Apple to innovate or die. Apple does it's best work when it is under pressure to survive.

Amen.

[dubbz]

i tried installing it on my wintel, it doesn't let you specify a drive to install it on. it has to be on the boot drive. wtf is that, are they scanning your drive and sending reports back to sony each time you boot up?

That's funny. I installed on my D: drive (ie: not bootdrive) just fine.

The installer is kinda sucky, though, like SiliconAddict mentioned. Haven't rebooted yet so I haven't had a chance to check out the program itself.

[aswitcher]

If you can't tell I'm the side of homicidal about this subject. I own Sony TV's, speakers, DVD players, PS2 but I will be danged if I will ever touch, breath upon, or glance at a memory stick without going ape****. http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/new_cussing.gif



Amen.


Unless they get a music store with lots of music in Japan and parts of Asia I cant see them getting far...

[jxyama]

Not impossible. I bought two gen 1 iPods, one for me and one for my son's graduation from the Apple Store. Both players died between 18-22 months after purchase. Both died from HD failure.

After my first iPod failed, I bought a third iPod. It was a gen 3 and I bought it from BestBuy with a 2 year replacement program. The hard drive died after about 15 months but at least this unit was replaced free by BestBuy.

So when I say I bought 3 ipods that averaged only about 18 months for HD life, I may have even been giving the iPod the benefit of the doubt. I didn't say they died consecutively. Two died in parallel.

ouch... sorry to hear that. :( (and apologies if i sounded like i questioned you. it just didn't make sense to me the way i read it... so thanks for the details.)

[frankly]

Very practical. That is why they sell very well here in Japan.

Sushi

Care to elaborate? When I asked how practical it was I meant from a UI standpoint. It doesn't seem to have anywhere near the incredible UI (i.e. scroll-wheel) that the iPod has. Does it at least have the hierarchical menu system like the iPod?

Frank

[frankly]

This site is ridiculously bias toward Apple!

And the award for "Obvious Statement of the Month" goes to...............


digitalbiker!!!!!!!!!!

Frank

[frankly]

If you make a rough calculation:
7$ * 10 Discs = 70 $ That will give you 10 GIG. Plus, 325$ for the player, you will have 10 GIGS of DATA, not just music, all removable, for under 400$

now, thats very high Cost/Benefit. (count batt life too)

Don't forget to add the cost of adding bigger pockets to all of your clothes so that you can carry all of those discs.

Frank

[nicorojas]

I actually had a Net Minidisc. The player was really something. It was cheap (US$130), small, light and it uses 1 AA battery that last more than 40 HOURS!!!

The thing that crippled it was the software, the obligatory conversion to ATRAC, that decrease the quality of the music (and delays the transfers). If the player had been able to play MP3 in addition to ATRAC, it would have been just what I wanted.

I haven't tried the new software, but if Sony has solved those issues it can compete with the iPod. Also, you have been comparing the price of only the high end of the new Minidisc players. The low end start around US$180. In addition, the high end can record through line in and MIC in, which is very important for a lot of people.

[Heltik]

Heltik

macrumors member

*

Location: UK





Read the article. Et Tu Sheryl Crow!! After all her "I love iTunes and Garageband". I guess Sony paid her a lot of money? Or are Sony her record label?? That would explain a thing or too.

So anyway. You'd want the most featured Sony... at $299 was it? And then 40 * $7 odd for 40 gigs capacity. So that's another $280. And then you'll need a very study bag to put them all in. And probably a PDA to index the tracks on each of those puppies.... And if it was me, then I'd have to hire some poor soul to fill 40 gigs worth of Mini Disc woohoo hi-density discs, because I'm buggered if I'd do that myself...

And then when I finally got sick of all that instead of just... wait for it "plugging the iPod cable in"... then I'd have a whole 40 Gigs of music that I really couldn't do much with.

Bargain. All aboard the idiot train!!

Personally, as soon as it's available in the UK, I'll be going with iTunes. As long as it's about 60 pence tops a track. We get utterly ripped off in the UK!!

[itsa]

That is one SLOW SERVER!!

[AndrewMT]

How will all of the itms users feel when in 3 years AAC fairplay is abandoned and "encryptionofthemonth" is used instead. Now your entire music catalog is frozen in time and your only option is to re-buy everything using the new "encryptionofthemonth" technology with better specs. You might be able to convert from AAC fairplay to "encryptionofthemonth" but it will be at a loss of quality.

Who gets burned? Apple, who get to re-sell their entire catalog? The music industry? The user who bought into the itms scheme?

If Apple were to upgrade its DRM or increase the bit rate, I can guarantee you that users would be able to re-download all their purchased music with a single click for free. Apple already does this for users who are installing ITMS on one of their five computers. You move to another computer, authorize the ITMS, and boom, your music begins to download. Steve Jobs has repeatedly said that the music you download on iTunes is yours forever.

[faintedlife]

That NY Times article was a pretty funny read. You could tell they were trying to not become too negative with their criticism-but they couldn't cause it was THAT bad.

[frankly]

If Apple were to upgrade its DRM or increase the bit rate, I can guarantee you that users would be able to re-download all their purchased music with a single click for free. Apple already does this for users who are installing ITMS on one of their five computers. You move to another computer, authorize the ITMS, and boom, your music begins to download. Steve Jobs has repeatedly said that the music you download on iTunes is yours forever.

Are you sure about this? Have you actually authorized another computer and the music that you have already downloaded??? I have always had to transfer the music from the computer on which I originally downloaded it.

Frank

[AndrewMT]

Are you sure about this? Have you actually authorized another computer and the music that you have already downloaded??? I have always had to transfer the music from the computer on which I originally downloaded it.

Frank

Yeah, you go to "Advanced" > "Check for Purchased Music....." and you type in your account login and pass and you're done! It's an awesome feature that a lot of people don't know about.

[SeaFox]

Sony launched (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/webguide/music/2004-05-03-sony_x.htm) their music download service today -- "Connect".

Not to be a troll here, but this article seems slightly hippocritical.

The service, however, appears to be built around supporting Sony's own MiniDisc format, which has not seen significant commercial success over the past several years.

Actually, Minidisc has seen success, in parts of the world outside the U.S.A.

Sony is expected to introduce high capacity MiniDisc devices later this year.

The format was introduced some time ago. The actual launch has been pushed back twice. The most recent time was the launch scheduled for a couple days ago. The current delay is because of a manuafacturing issue involving the new high capacity discs. Current launch date is late June.

While songs are similarly priced to the rest of the industry ($.99/song), Sony will be using the ATRAC song format, making it incompatible with most MP3 players and the iPod.

Replace "Sony" with "Apple", "ATRAC" with "DRM protected AAC" and "the iPod" with "Minidisc".

Now read the sentence again.

[jxyama]

Actually, Minidisc has seen success, in parts of the world outside the U.S.A.

[snip]

Replace "Sony" with "Apple", "ATRAC" with "DRM protected AAC" and "the iPod" with "Minidisc".

Now read the sentence again.

a few caveats:

1) US is the biggest market in the world. yes, MD is very popular in Japan, but no company would feel comfortable if the device they are trying to sell is not successful in the biggest market.

2) iPod is the most popular portable music player. the fact something isn't compatible with iPod is a big negative, while not being compatible with MD isn't as big of a problem.

and believe me, i wish MD had taken off in the US. i converted all of my CDs into MDs back in 1999. i even labeled all the songs and discs, manually, one by one, for most of 200+ MDs i own. then bang!, i get an iPod and song names and disc names are automatically labeled and they all fit in one device. :mad: :( :o :D :cool:

[call-151]

can you give examples of sony undercutting prices? i personally can't think of any.

Check out Sony : The Private Life by John Nathan

[ebunton]

The true nature of Connect is revealed...

Here (http://www.macminute.com/2004/05/10/sony) is news of an interesting Sony Product on MacMinute I found earlier.

http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/VGF-AP1/index.html

[NOV]

The true nature of Connect is revealed...

Here (http://www.macminute.com/2004/05/10/sony) is news of an interesting Sony Product on MacMinute I found earlier.

http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/VGF-AP1/index.html

Yes, this is supposed to be the iPod killer...From a gadget point of view I do think Apple has to do some catching up with the GUI on their iPod. It suddenly looks a bit old fashioned, compared to the Vaio. Not that I care that much, but the innocent customer probably will.

Battery life is another strong point for the Vaio (20 hrs). But it's ATRAC centric so you'll have to convert your mp3's etc. to this format before you can upload from your PC.

[G-TNT]

nope
i had one of the original minidiscs for jogging. it was worthless. skipped all the time. and i hated that you could really only record once on a disc... i think this technology is useless... why doesnt anyone do anything with flash memory yet?

you should learn more about what you own...
MiniDiscs are rewritable, you can add tracks to a recorded disc if there's space.
AND, there's whole lotta devices out there which uses flash, but the capacity is low and still expensive compared to HDD and Optical discs.