Microsoft's Longhorn

[MacRumors]

Microsoft's provided a preview (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1585533,00.asp) of Longhorn at WinHEC 2004. The upcoming operating system revision from Microsoft will feature a new user interface called Avalon which will a more colorful 3d interface, which apparently bears a resemblance to Mac OS X according to the author.

A full beta is not expected until 2005, and the average system requirements (http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1581842,00.asp) are expected to be a 4-6GHz PC with 2GB of RAM and one terabyte of storage.

This early preview is to be distributed to developers at the end of the WinHEC conference so more information will likely become available of this conference.

[SilentPanda]

If you change a phone number on your computer it will sync with your bluetooth phone?!?!?! And it works the other way too! Wow! Goodbye PPC... hello x86. Wait a second... gimme some of the Jobsian kool-aid. Okay I'm back.

[blueBomber]

What ridiculous system requirements for an OPERATING SYSTEM!!!!
What's going to happen when you just barely meet those and want to run programs on top of that?!?!? This is just silly. I hope that they try to optimize a little bit, but since it's Microsoft, they probably won't bother. :rolleyes:

[Powerbook G5]

I saw the requirements before. A triple core 4-6 GHz (64-bit recommended) processor, 2 gigs of RAM, and 1 TB of HD...what the heck? And this is just to run the OS itself. As soon as you open solitaire, I bet it will come crashing to a halt with how many resources are going to be monopolized by Windows. I seriously cannot believe anyone would consider this kind of bloat to be acceptable.

[pennymonger]

Is there any doubt that Longhorn "bears a resemblance to Mac OS X"? MS is the best at copying.

[ifjake]

4-6 GHz 2 gigs of ram and a terabyte of memory. what made windows so successful in my mind is that it could run on any crappy dirt cheap PC. somehow i can't really imagine that these specs will be the lower end PC even in two years.

[Chaszmyr]

I don't see the average computer having a 1tb HD in 2 years...

[DavidLeblond]

I highly doubt those are the system requirements for longhorn. Just remember, the dev team is running it unoptimized and in debug mode... so their computers would have to be much faster than the "system requirements."

I also highly doubt Avalon will look as polished as Quartz Extreme. It will probably end up being a hack-job just like XP is. :rolleyes:

[Chaszmyr]

Is there any doubt that Longhorn "bears a resemblance to Mac OS X"? MS is the best at copying.

No... If they were really good at copying then their copies wouldn't turn out worse than the original :-P

[abc123]

i'd really like to see a screen shot

[wordmunger]

Before everyone starts making fun of Longhorn's system reqs, remember this is the OS that many of us are going to be... er... saddled with for years to come. It's not likely to be in full distribution until 2007, and if Moore's Law holds up, the typical new system should be running at about 12 GHz by then. So those reqs don't seem particularly silly, especially given the fact that there's going to be some sort of a "light" mode for legacy systems.

That said, Longhorn sure seems to be shaping up to be a classic example of MS bloatware. It's an OS of truly bovine proportions!

[blueBomber]

i'd really like to see a screen shot
They are out there, but from what I have seen, it's a bit underwhelming. The GIANT dock looking thing (I can't remember what they are calling it) takes up much more screen than I would care to sacrifice. Things may have changed a bit since then though, as the pictures I saw were from an early build.

[Xnet]

That said, Longhorn sure seems to be shaping up to be a classic example of MS bloatware. It's an OS of truly bovine proportions!

HAHAHAHAH

Does anyone have any screen shots?

[blueBomber]

Before everyone starts making fun of Longhorn's system reqs, remember this is the OS that many of us are going to be... er... saddled with for years to come. It's not likely to be in full distribution until 2007, and if Moore's Law holds up, the typical new system should be running at about 12 GHz by then. So those reqs don't seem particularly silly, especially given the fact that there's going to be some sort of a "light" mode for legacy systems.

That said, Longhorn sure seems to be shaping up to be a classic example of MS bloatware. It's an OS of truly bovine proportions!

True, processor speeds will be there in six years, but 1 TB of HD space? That's obscene no matter how you look at it.

[Powerbook G5]

By 2007, I cannot imagine what OS X or XI is going to be like. We'll probably be interfacing with our computers like in Star Trek and the requirements will only be 1/4 as high as Windows while they are still clicking around on their new and improved Tyco rip-off interface.

[Chaszmyr]

and if Moore's Law holds up, the typical new system should be running at about 12 GHz by then.

Moore's law hold up? are you kidding? In the last 10 and a half months Intel has only gone from 3.2 to 3.4ghz (Granted there have been improvements other than clock frequency)

[icon4x]

Hmmm... I wonder if it will be Unix based? :rolleyes:

[Xnet]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp

[Chaszmyr]

They are out there, but from what I have seen, it's a bit underwhelming. The GIANT dock looking thing (I can't remember what they are calling it) takes up much more screen than I would care to sacrifice. Things may have changed a bit since then though, as the pictures I saw were from an early build.

The screenshots that are out there don't really count... They don't include the new "Avalon" UI, so they basically look like WinXP

[mkrishnan]

If you change a phone number on your computer it will sync with your bluetooth phone?!?!?! And it works the other way too! Wow! Goodbye PPC... hello x86. Wait a second... gimme some of the Jobsian kool-aid. Okay I'm back.

Actually, with Nokia's software for Win, I already essentially had this feature. It had a "sync whenever device comes in range" function. I used IR to connect to my Win PC, so I had to actually turn it on, on the phone, to make it happen, but if my work PC had BT, it would've done it whenever I walked into the room.

I'm still kinda miffed that iSync doesn't have this feature -- it should not be too hard to implement, with some kind of intelligence, i.e. sync upon device entry into range if not synced in x hours or w.e.

Regarding the memory and processor requirements...what does "double core" mean? This isn't the same thing as MS saying they expect the minimal Longhorn PC to have dual processors, is it? But I seem to remember that these numbers, which MS predicts as what their new operating system will need, stay fairly static or even get worse close to the launch. I would be shocked if a PC like they describe was available at the low end within two years....unless they are talking about the server version of LH and there is a much lower req't desktop version....

[GovornorPhatt]

I'm guessing that this won't run on Virtual PC, based on the requirements.

[Bear]

...

A full beta is not expected until 2005, and the average system requirements (http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1581842,00.asp) are expected to be a 4-6GHz PC with 2GB of RAM and one terabyte of storage.

...
All things conseidered, if Mac OS X had similar requirements, I'd be looking at a machine with [at least] 5 GB ram and 1.5 terabytes od disk space. Oh yeah, and at least 2 dual core 6 GHz procs.

I'm so glad I don't use MS Windows.

[trilogic]

What ridiculous system requirements for an OPERATING SYSTEM!!!!
What's going to happen when you just barely meet those and want to run programs on top of that?!?!? This is just silly. I hope that they try to optimize a little bit, but since it's Microsoft, they probably won't bother. :rolleyes:

the hardware industry will love to sell new pc to everyone

[adamfilip]

True, processor speeds will be there in six years, but 1 TB of HD space? That's obscene no matter how you look at it.

You know your right.. but its kinda funny. people were saying the same thing when 1GB was a huge amount.

now i couldnt install all my software in under a gig.

same thing will happen with 1TB :)
seems huge now in 10 years it will be average or almost minimum , My bet

[icon4x]

Also, as long as they don't get rid of the Einstein guy, the dog, and the paperclip things... well, that's all that matters. Show of hands how many people think Longhorn will be just as insecure as the other MS OSes, and crash just as much???

[Chaszmyr]

I'm guessing that this won't run on Virtual PC, based on the requirements.

I hadn't even thought of that. However... I seem to recall IBM's distant roadmap including PowerPC processors that could convert on the fly to run x86 software

[Bear]

4-6 GHz 2 gigs of ram and a terabyte of memory. what made windows so successful in my mind is that it could run on any crappy dirt cheap PC. somehow i can't really imagine that these specs will be the lower end PC even in two years.You mean a terabyte of disk space. In computers memory means ram.

[adamfilip]

Also, as long as they don't get rid of the Einstein guy, the dog, and the paperclip things... well, that's all that matters. Show of hands how many people think Longhorn will be just as insecure as the other MS OSes, and crash just as much???

I think your confusing Office with Windows

[Frobozz]

I actually know the guy respsonsible for the development of Longhorn. He was just hired by Billy-Boy himself. He inherited most of the specs and issues. The guy was my boss for 3 years at another company.

Anyway, he walked in on his first day and said to a Development group of 100's of people "Hi. I'm here to clean the windows." Crickets. Not a word in response. I think they're under the delusion that their product is solid somehow, even though my friend was hired to "clean house."

[icon4x]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp


can't. stop. looking. at. huge. clock.

[mac15]

I hadn't even thought of that. However... I seem to recall IBM's distant roadmap including PowerPC processors that could convert on the fly to run x86 software

I ran an older build, runs a touch slower than XP due to the eyecandy

[MacsRgr8]

Have you guys read this (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5040169&pageNumber=1) ??

Quote: "The Longhorn machine, although slightly better than Windows XP at displaying graphics-heavy Windows, failed to respond when Allchin also tried to bring up another graphics-intensive application, the popular first person shooter game Quake.

Allchin said that the PC was slow and Microsoft said that the demo worked fine in trials."

[Grimace]

Still, in a year or two, the REQUIRED system specs just to run an OS won't be that high. Maybe they meant, Longhorn will be installed on computers bearing these probable specs.

[icon4x]

I think your confusing Office with Windows


oh yeah. sorry. :o

[adamfilip]

Right now i have 160 Gigs of hard drive space
and 1280mb RAm.


next time i upgrade i will get a minimum of another 250gig hard drive
and 2 more gigs of ram.

and this is prob within a year

so in 3-4 years.

having over a TB of hard drive space. is realistic
and 3-4 gigs of ram. aswell

[XForge]

No... If they were really good at copying then their copies wouldn't turn out worse than the original :-P

"Through a scanner, darkly."

[icon4x]

By the way... this might be a really dumb question, so feel free to slap me around a bit... if this OS requires 4-6 GHz, and hardware that will probably just start showing up in 2 years, well... how are they developing Longhorn, then? ... using a dual duce G5? How are they previewing/testing it?

[iHack]

Apparently, they compared longhorn to XP, with only slight differences in performance.

And in the demo the HP PC running Longhorn refused to run Quake!!
the VP presenting said that is ran fine earlier and it must just be a slow PC. :D
Reuters link (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5040169&pageNumber=1)
Maybe a score to settle with HP over iTunes/iPod?

this brings back fond memories of Gates demo'ing the win98 BSOD.

HAHAHAHAHAHA :D

M.

edit: added link
edit2: MacsRgr8 beat me to it in post #34 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=831168&postcount=34)

[wordmunger]

True, processor speeds will be there in six years, but 1 TB of HD space? That's obscene no matter how you look at it.
Actually, I was talking about three years from now, 2007--Moore's law says the processor will double every 18 months (though technically this was number of transistors, not CPU speed).

If you look at the Apple Pro desktops from three years ago, they shipped with 60 GB hard drives. Now they ship with 160 GB HDs, nearly tripling. So in 2007 we'll be talking about 400-500 GB HDs standard--not quite there. It will probably take until 2008 or 2009 before we start seeing standard Terabyte HDs.

[greenstork]

the hardware industry will love to sell new pc to everyone

Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner!

This is why Microsoft has such great support from hardware and software makers alike. When you bloat a product, it forces everyone to buy new stuff to have the latest and ...cough... greatest.

[idkew]

Right now i have 160 Gigs of hard drive space
and 1280mb RAm.


next time i upgrade i will get a minimum of another 250gig hard drive
and 2 more gigs of ram.

and this is prob within a year

so in 3-4 years.

having over a TB of hard drive space. is realistic
and 3-4 gigs of ram. aswell



but you are a power user.

these are system requirements, like the 256mb of ram needed for osx. and we all know how crappy os x runs on 256mb of ram

[1macker1]

What don't resemble OSX to people nowadays. Sheesh. I cant wait for longhorn, i love technology. Those last 2 photos look pretty cool to me. But Windows has never really been about cool, it's been about productivity. Think about that.

[wordmunger]

By the way... this might be a really dumb question, so feel free to slap me around a bit... if this OS requires 4-6 GHz, and hardware that will probably just start showing up in 2 years, well... how are they developing Longhorn, then? ... using a dual duce G5? How are they previewing/testing it?

Probably with something like this (http://www.zdnet.com.au/reviews/hardware/storage/0,39023427,20282555-2,00.htm).

[PretendPCuser]

WinXP is now at, how many Gb is the install? 2Gb? IF their "operating system" needs 1Tb, how many bugs will that be? hmmmm.

Longhorn. Isn't that supposed to be the one that documents everything you do and has all the security stuff with the lightsabers and the vwwing, vwinng, *vwwing". (Sorry, Professor Frink relapse).

So maybe it needs 1tB to store every keystroke you ever do, every move on the internet, etc. and sends it all back to M$. Don't worry though, every month, M$ will go over your hard drive and rid all files that don't directly pertain to running Office.

Have fun suckahs!!

[XForge]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp

Oh.

So, add to those system requirements "a 35-inch monitor so you'll be able to see what you're working on past that monstrous dock thing."

[Low]

wow, actually im quite excited to use longhorn. of course those requirements are bogus...kind of nice to see the future of what MS has...im all for it. :)

[abc123]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp
it still looks like windows.i've never understood the point of the start menu. infact i didn't even notice it was missing when i switched. i would have liked to see microsoft start from scratch with the interface and make something new and different but i guess with so many customers a lot of them wouldn't be able to cope.

[Chaszmyr]

ONCE AGAIN: The verions of Longhorn that have been released for testing so far do not include the new Avalon UI

[e-coli]

I've seen the latest internals. They have a new interface and skin called "glass", and, yes, it is very similar in look to OS X.

IMHO, it looks better than OS X.

:(

[1macker1]

Me too, i'm kinda excited.
wow, actually im quite excited to use longhorn. of course those requirements are bogus...kind of nice to see the future of what MS has...im all for it. :)

[PlanB]

well to be honest IF computers are running at 6ghz in 2 years then 90% of there 95% market share will have to upgraded to even run the os.....

which can only be good for apple, as they will be thee to clear up the mess left by winoze.

makes you wonder what on earth needs upto 6ghz to run it though, doesnt it???

[Bear]

What don't resemble OSX to people nowadays. Sheesh. I cant wait for longhorn, i love technology. Those last 2 photos look pretty cool to me. But Windows has never really been about cool, it's been about productivity. Think about that.I thought MS Windows was about productivity prevention?

[Chaszmyr]

I've seen the latest internals. They have a new interface and skin called "glass", and, yes, it is very similar in look to OS X.

IMHO, it looks better than OS X.

:(

Even if it does look better than OSX, it is important to not forget that OSX is now and Longhorn isn't. We know more about where MS will be in 2 years than where Apple will be in 2 months

[1macker1]

I can only speak for myself, but I only use my Mac at home for personal use, but I use XP at work, and I can tell you, for what I do, it's very productive.
I thought MS Windows was about productivity prevention?

[Xnet]

ONCE AGAIN: The verions of Longhorn that have been released for testing so far do not include the new Avalon UI

According to Paul Thurrott

This is a sample of AVALON

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winhec2004_24.jpg

[mgargan1]

I think i've posted this before, but i thought that I would again, just because it has some relevance in this thread. Sun has produced a 3d OS called project "looking glass", and it really looks quite amazing. They show the demo on their website, and the begining is quite boring and dull, but once they get into the meat of the presentation (when they actually show the OS) it's amazing. Here's the link to their looking glass demo: Eat this Microsoft (http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html)

[iHack]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp


Hmmm. This OS seems to be perfect for easter. Did anybody else notice what longhorn wants us to do to our contacts in this screenshot (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/4074_ui_08.gif) ?

M.

[icon4x]

I've seen the latest internals. They have a new interface and skin called "glass", and, yes, it is very similar in look to OS X.

IMHO, it looks better than OS X.

:(

I wonder what the Mac OS will look like by the time Longhorn (man, it's just begging for a better name) is released. I guess I don't really care what Windoze does, as long as Apple keeps leading the industry in innovation and rock solid system performance. Apple will always be several steps ahead of MS... they always have been, except in that biggest chunk of market share thing.
:rolleyes:

[1macker1]

The minimized window are way to big. But it is a cool looking concept.
I think i've posted this before, but i thought that I would again, just because it has some relevance in this thread. Sun has produced a 3d OS called project "looking glass", and it really looks quite amazing. They show the demo on their website, and the begining is quite boring and dull, but once they get into the meat of the presentation (when they actually show the OS) it's amazing. Here's the link to their looking glass demo: Eat this Microsoft (http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html)

[XForge]

Also, as long as they don't get rid of the Einstein guy, the dog, and the paperclip things... well, that's all that matters. Show of hands how many people think Longhorn will be just as insecure as the other MS OSes, and crash just as much???

I think it'll be more secure; I think they'll turn off and disable so many services it won't be able to do much more than open a single copy of Solitaire.

[BornAgainMac]

They are out there, but from what I have seen, it's a bit underwhelming. The GIANT dock looking thing (I can't remember what they are calling it) takes up much more screen than I would care to sacrifice. Things may have changed a bit since then though, as the pictures I saw were from an early build.

That sounds like the sidebar. It's with Office apps on Windows to. It is context sensitive. They feel that you will have a large enough monitor to handle it.

Also I doubt Virtual PC will be able to run Longhorn based on the system requirements even if they optimize their O/S some more.

[1macker1]

This is going to turn into a Longhorn V OSX thread soon. :) I like the black interface. I'm tired of all the kiddie colors.

[wordmunger]

Hmmm. This OS seems to be perfect for easter. Did anybody else notice what longhorn wants us to do to our contacts in this screenshot (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/4074_ui_08.gif) ?
M.

Love that recycle bin! Hmmm... where could I have seen that before?

[thatwendigo]

Actually, I was talking about three years from now, 2007--Moore's law says the processor will double every 18 months (though technically this was number of transistors, not CPU speed).

If you look at the Apple Pro desktops from three years ago, they shipped with 60 GB hard drives. Now they ship with 160 GB HDs, nearly tripling. So in 2007 we'll be talking about 400-500 GB HDs standard--not quite there. It will probably take until 2008 or 2009 before we start seeing standard Terabyte HDs.

I re-iterate, from the MacByte's Forum Discussion of Longhorn (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=70605).

Edit:
Well, it seems that I'm not allowed to just cut and paste what I said to a place it would actually be seen... :rolleyes:

Seriously, people. Go read the post.

[billyboy]

By 2007 there will be new Longhorn or OS X 10.7 - as in a system seriously upgraded probably 3 times since Panther which already rocks. Let's hope Apple do their marketing thing and there are a few million new Mac users by then rolling their eyes at "new" MS effects and displays that have been in OS X for years.

[addiecool]

1TB of HDD to install the OS? :eek: So do we believe that in the next two years we will require 5-10TB of disc space for all apps? MS su**s !!!

[Krrill]

According to Paul Thurrott

This is a sample of AVALON

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winhec2004_24.jpg


OMG, if that's what the UI looks like, I might as well become a toddler. Those icons are gargantuan! I wish MS would come up with it's own ideas at this point, it feels like every time the Mac does something it's amazing, but someone does a revision of it, and the fame is stolen. All well, GL apple, make Tiger count!

[1macker1]

I dont think those specs are right. I mean really. They just throwing these numbers out to screw with the other companies.
1TB of HDD to install the OS? :eek: So do we believe that in the next two years we will require 5-10TB of disc space for all apps? MS su**s !!!

[1macker1]

You do see how big of a screen that the UI is being displayed on right.
OMG, if that's what the UI looks like, I might as well become a toddler. Those icons are gargantuan! I wish MS would come up with it's own ideas at this point, it feels like every time the Mac does something it's amazing, but someone does a revision of it, and the fame is stolen. All well, GL apple, make Tiger count!

[SiliconAddict]

average system requirements (http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1581842,00.asp) are expected to be a 4-6GHz PC with 2GB of RAM and one terabyte of storage.


http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/jawdrop.gif

OK. First off keep in mind that the underpinnings of this will have serious ties into a database scheme so 2GB of RAM isn't TOTALLY unexpected. But I find it VERY hard to believe 1TB for disk space. WHF?!? In current iterations of Windows at least 60% of the space is taken up by the swapfile and driver cache (e.g. Driver.cab.) I want to know what in the name of all things bloated could possibly require 1TB of storage space.

Secondly the CPU requirements I don't believe for a second. Why? Because I've run prebeta of Longhorn on my 800Mhz/512MB RAM/40GB laptop and while hardly fast it DOES run.
I think the above specs are for the high end of Longhorn. They are implementing tiered system requirement. (e.g. to get everything you need W specs. To get this, this and this you need X specs, to get this and this you need Y specs. And to simply run Longhorn you need Z specs.) I highly doubt MS is going to lock everyone out of upgrading. They'd be morons to do so esp considering the enterprise environment who WILL NOT go out and buy new hardware simply for Longshot.


Overall, though, Longhorn still had an Apple look to it. I suppose imitation is a form of flattery, after all

JESUS ******** Christ!! :mad: I can't tell you how many PC users I've talked to who scoff at the eye candy in OS X and yet this crap is now surfacing!! We don't need eye candy naaa Oh my bad. Now we do. ARRRGGGHHH!! Freaking hypocrites. **breath...breath...I'm calm...I'm calm ;) **

All in all I'm interested in rimshot..er...longshot...er...Longhorn. The thing is I'll FINALLY have my G5 17" PowerBook, I HOPE!, by the time Longshot shows up so its a moot point for me. :p


One last note. http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/huh.gif IS IT OFFICIAL?!?!? 2007?!?! OMG!!! Apple has such a chance here to recapture a segment of the market its not even funny!!!

[PlanB]

in all of those pictures there is nothing to sggest that it will need 1000gb or a 6ghz processor to run it..... its b.s.

[virividox]

"That PC featured another concept that Microsoft said would soon become mainstream, the ability for computers to turn on and off nearly instantaneously"

hnmmm its called sleep function

[thatwendigo]

I dont think those specs are right. I mean really. They just throwing these numbers out to screw with the other companies.

Then you don't pay attention at all to what's in the pipe for various companies. Even though the target date has slid, Jonas and Merom could easily prove to be dual-core x86 processors that run from 4-6ghz, and they won't even be the poweruser chips. They're inteded for home use.

Right now, we have 250GB 3" HDs. That was pretty amazing two years ago, when 120GB was the upper limit. Double again over the next two years, and that gives you 500GB, then tack on a RAID controller - 1 TB.

Think before you start with the MS defense. This is easily possible over the next two years, just at current advancement speeds, and especially if Intel abandons the P7-core and moves on with the Tejas and Dothan/Jonas/Merom cores.

[adamfilip]

1TB of HDD to install the OS? :eek: So do we believe that in the next two years we will require 5-10TB of disc space for all apps? MS su**s !!!

this doesnt make sense


1tb for the entire system, my bet no more then 3gb needed for the OS
and the rest for addins and applications and such. i think those specs list what a highend PC will have when Longhorn appears. not what it needs to run.

think about it if longhorn itself needs 1tb. think about the install disks needed

You would need 222 DVD disks then :) its crazy.. not even in the old floppy days did you have more then a dozen or so to install windows.

[icon4x]

I think i've posted this before, but i thought that I would again, just because it has some relevance in this thread. Sun has produced a 3d OS called project "looking glass", and it really looks quite amazing. They show the demo on their website, and the begining is quite boring and dull, but once they get into the meat of the presentation (when they actually show the OS) it's amazing. Here's the link to their looking glass demo: Eat this Microsoft (http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html)

Sun is rock solid, too, but obsessed with Java. Sun's OSes have typically been real borring, requiring very low system requirements, and teh user having an above average knowledge of Unix. Sun builds some of the most reliable, efficient systems ever built. I've seen Sun boxes run for 5 years in a production environment without any downtime. Sun has never been that user friendly, designed more for use and support by technical professionals (a very limited market), but they are probably some of the most reliable systems ever created.

I wrote this on an Ultra 10.

[Les Kern]

What ridiculous system requirements for an OPERATING SYSTEM!!!!

Actually I think it's about as forward-thinking as I have ever seen MS. By 2006 (or later as is always the case) it's likely that those machines will be available. Is Apple looking that far ahead? Maybe not, as X, as it ages and still give a powerful Mac coniptions because of the graphics, will just get faster and faster.

[Photorun]

That's what people who think Longhorn looks good are doing obviously, it's the usual lackluster ho-hum M$'s "engineers" make... yawn, please people, get an aesthetic clue.

Now the 3D Sun video, THAT'S amazing! That gives OS X a run for it's money, but Longhorn, if that's attractive then people need glasses, it comes in a distant third behind OS X and Sun's potential new OS.

[mkrishnan]

OMG, if that's what the UI looks like, I might as well become a toddler. Those icons are gargantuan! I wish MS would come up with it's own ideas at this point, it feels like every time the Mac does something it's amazing, but someone does a revision of it, and the fame is stolen. All well, GL apple, make Tiger count!

Is it just me or does it seem like every new MS interface lets you use less and less of the screen for what you're actually doing and has more and more ancillary space? If those sneak peek photos are accurate, esp. the one with the freakishly huge clock, then there's not much space left to do work in.

Maybe if some of your apps' controls went into that right hand space, it would be okay. Like the palletes in MS Office.X or Photoshop.

But this same thing kinda irritated my about the move from the "classic" to the "web-enabled" Windows folders, and the stupid left-hand search bar in MSIE, and Windows Media Center.

You can always edit these features back down into a useable interface, but I just don't quite get how you're intended to use the as-is interface...

Sorry for the rant. :)

[arqsagi]

It will be so difficult to do something as great as Panther today, but they will have few 2 or 3 years more, maybe for that time Tiger will be an old operating system.

Well interesting is that microsoft keep promoting the Athens PC, a HP prototype that is "the computer of the future" with widescreen and videoconferencing camera and bluetooth phone, the latest one you can see it here:

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winhec2004_22.jpg

It is one of the worst all in one design I have ever seen, even the gateway is a little better than this one, having all those buttons and docks in that big wide base is hard to acomodate in many desks.

Well there is a reason behind this design, its a Pc, so keep it ugly and in cheap materials and ugly colors (hate that light blue metalic of Hp for a computer)

[sinisterdesign]

"LONGHORN: The Sidebar That Ate My Desktop"

or

"Windows 2010: A Hard Drive Space Odyssey"

evidently, a really high screen resolution is going to be a requirement, too, so you can fit all these friggin bars & tabs on the screen.

those are some crazy sys reqs, but by the time it hits the shelves, i don't think they will be as high or sound as crazy.

and to everyone that thinks 1TB of hard drive space is for the OS install, you're waaaaaay off. it's for all the patches that you'll have to download (on the bright side, most people will have broadband by then!)

[Xnet]

Here are more images of the AVALON UI

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003_aero_keynote.asp

and a small video in .wmv

http://www.winsupersite.com/files/pdc2003_avalon_transparency.wmv

[gekko513]

wow, actually im quite excited to use longhorn. of course those requirements are bogus...kind of nice to see the future of what MS has...im all for it. :)
Yeah ... Win XP in black. I can't wait ;)

[ks23]

are expected to be a 4-6GHz PC with 2GB of RAM and one terabyte of storage.

I LOVE THIS COMPANY :LOL:

[mgargan1]

so, if those are the specs for the OS, i wonder what the specs for the top of the line computer game will be? Hmm... maybe require you to have a machine that has a dual monitor? Makes coffee for you? I mean what next? Althought i do agree with what most people are saying, by 2007 the specs wont be too too egregous (is that spelled correctly?) However, if the new OS comes out in 2005; those specs will be completely off, 2006; it'll be high for most people, 2007; it'll still be high but not too uncommon.

Also, think about the education market. I highly doubt that a lot of schools are going to pay to upgrade their machines only to use windows longhorn, or maybe called Window FX? that's what companies are using now, i dunno what it'll be in the future.

[iBook]

I remember some prior discussion about Longhorn and how it would necessitate the purchase of new computers to support. Even if half the system requirements described here are correct, MS users will need to buy new hardware.

Isn't this Apple's windfall opportunity? What's the usual adoption rate among Wintel-based PCs for the latest OS?

I'm not one of those people who thinks Apple needs to turn the tables on MS and have 90% + marketshare - neither am I one who thinks it's possible. I would like to see Apple have wider marketshare simply for the longevity of the company and the greater availability of third-party software and accessories.

C'mon Apple. Get the advertising together, get the G5 over 3 Ghz and sharpen your pencil to take those orders!

[1macker1]

Just because something is in the pipe, doesn't mean it will see daylight. Who cares what Jonas and Merom have coming, those specs will not be for the average consumer PC. Anything is possible, but it's not gonna happen.
Then you don't pay attention at all to what's in the pipe for various companies. Even though the target date has slid, Jonas and Merom could easily prove to be dual-core x86 processors that run from 4-6ghz, and they won't even be the poweruser chips. They're inteded for home use.

Right now, we have 250GB 3" HDs. That was pretty amazing two years ago, when 120GB was the upper limit. Double again over the next two years, and that gives you 500GB, then tack on a RAID controller - 1 TB.

Think before you start with the MS defense. This is easily possible over the next two years, just at current advancement speeds, and especially if Intel abandons the P7-core and moves on with the Tejas and Dothan/Jonas/Merom cores.
I defend whom I choose. Thank you very much.

[adamfilip]

It will be so difficult to do something as great as Panther today, but they will have few 2 or 3 years more, maybe for that time Tiger will be an old operating system.

Well interesting is that microsoft keep promoting the Athens PC, a HP prototype that is "the computer of the future" with widescreen and videoconferencing camera and bluetooth phone, the latest one you can see it here:

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winhec2004_22.jpg

It is one of the worst all in one design I have ever seen, even the gateway is a little better than this one, having all those buttons and docks in that big wide base is hard to acomodate in many desks.

Well there is a reason behind this design, its a Pc, so keep it ugly and in cheap materials and ugly colors (hate that light blue metalic of Hp for a computer)

Personally i dont mind the "Athens" PC i do like the intergrated PDA port.
i really like the screen and the longhorn interface on that screen doesnt take up too much room.

but im hoping for something great from Tiger

[SiliconAddict]

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winhec2004_04.jpg

This is the kind of thing I would like to see apple do. Give us an idea!! What though process is going on at Apple. They don't need to reveal everything but at the very least tease us a bit. :)

[icon4x]

It is one of the worst all in one design I have ever seen, even the gateway is a little better than this one, having all those buttons and docks in that big wide base is hard to acomodate in many desks.

Well there is a reason behind this design, its a Pc, so keep it ugly and in cheap materials and ugly colors (hate that light blue metalic of Hp for a computer)


It will be hard for an all in one PC to beat the style of today's iMac.

[thatwendigo]

Secondly the CPU requirements I don't believe for a second. Why? Because I've run prebeta of Longhorn on my 800Mhz/512MB RAM/40GB laptop and while hardly fast it DOES run.

I disagree, because of one thing and one thing alone. Microsoft wants to push Trusted Computing, which will probably eat disk and clock cycles both, but will only really be a hog if they let it bloat. However, it's in their best interests to do so if it means that they can force people to upgrade to newer boards/systems that have the hardware implementation embedded. At that point, they've got you and you're locked into whatever upgrade scheme they come up with, whatever they want to do, because the system will be doing a much more active version of what XP does no - calling home.

As broadband spreads and digital content becomes more prevalent, Microsoft wants to own it just as bad as they wanted to own the internet back in the mid nineties. Leveraging their platform and their standards as the only choice is the game, and it's one that hardware manufacturers are going to love... Why wouldn't they? It's guaranteed sales. It's minting money, because Joe Average will buy a computer so that his kids can do things he thinks they need for school, so that he can watch movies, and so on, ad nauseum.

Welcome to the future. Would you like a little lube first?


IS IT OFFICIAL?!?!? 2007?!?! OMG!!! Apple has such a chance here to recapture a segment of the market its not even funny!!!

This is why I trumpet OS X and Linux-on-Desktop, running on PowerPC. Any sane user will want out of the hellstorm that will be permissions and DRM on Longhorn. IBM, AMD, Toshiba, Sony, Freescale, and Apple are all jockeying on PowerPC at the moment, with the newcomers just getting their toes wet at the moment.

Pretty soon, IBM will offer PowerPC desktop machines. They have the manufacturing capability, but they just need the user interface for an enterprise market and home users.

[idkew]

Right now, we have 250GB 3" HDs. That was pretty amazing two years ago, when 120GB was the upper limit. Double again over the next two years, and that gives you 500GB, then tack on a RAID controller - 1 TB.




there you go. "RAID now required. No one makes a HD large enough to fit out bloatware on a single drive"

[jvaska]

yeah, yeah, yeah...whatever...

who really cares what an interface 'looks' like as long as we can get stuff done...i still prefer the interface in OS9 to OSX but that's just me. i'm as productive now as i was then and i don't really believe they could do anything to make me work faster. it's such a bunch of hooey.

ms needs to address security issues...why in the heck has not a worldwide class action lawsuit been filed against them for creating bad software? i use my pc about 0.0001 percent of the time (yes, once or twice a year) and i still spend more time fixing other people's pc's than fixing my mac...

anyways, a mac is a mac is a mac is a mac is not a pc...i'll keep using my mac thank you...v

[Dippo]

Oh I LOVE all this Eye Candy....

It almost makes up for the complete utter lack of a USER INTERFACE!!!

Why doesn't Microslug try making something people can use instead of pouring sugar down our throats???

[uzombie]

Hmmm. This OS seems to be perfect for easter. Did anybody else notice what longhorn wants us to do to our contacts in this screenshot (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/4074_ui_08.gif) ?

M.

Wait. I mean, I work left to right. So the most important feature to me is the access of left down right. Why put the trash at top left?

Wasn't the Mac OS model the "best" gui for its time? (Apple menu, simple navigation, trash at lower right).

This Longhorn is Long in the teeth for efficiency from its looks.

As for requirements, I think M$ is just pusshing (sp intentional) for hardware delay. Once we see a P4 or Itanium (or other 6 ghz cpu) handling the processing, the software should be ready.

2008.

As for 2 Gig RAM, we see it today in G5 and FX64 machines. And with LaCie BiG disk, a terabyte or two is currently $3000. Three years ago, you had to get twenty 100Gig drives in an array. That was about $7000.

I wonder what kinda heat an Intel 6ghz CPu will put out? Make it my home furnace...and the blower feeds the house ducts...

[thatwendigo]

Just because something is in the pipe, doesn't mean it will see daylight. Who cares what Jonas and Merom have coming, those specs will not be for the average consumer PC. Anything is possible, but it's not gonna happen.

I defend whom I choose. Thank you very much.

Did you even read my post?

Dothan/Jonas/Merom are intended as consumer processors, because the P4 (P7 architecture, in general) is way, way too hot. Dothan is a single-core 90nm Centrino, Jonas a dual-core version of the same processor, and Merom a modified version of Jonas. All of them are intended for laptops and general consumer use.

Intel has said, in their roadmap, that the P4 is going to slide towards niche-markets and be replaced in average usage.

[1macker1]

I think the specs are wrong because this would run Dell out of business. They wouldn't be able to sell PC's for 400 bucks going by those specs. But who knows how the market will have change by 2007.

[Krrill]

You do see how big of a screen that the UI is being displayed on right.

I was never talking about the "actual size" I was talking about the relativity on the screen... If you actually look at how much space they're taking up, it's sad.

[The Red Wolf]

A minimum space requirement of one Terabyte in order to work? Does M$ know how big that is? Average size for OS-X 1-2 GB. It takes a Terabyte, two years from now to even run Longhorn? Wow, doubt you can get a PC with a couple of terabytes for $499 ($599 with rebate). And if it takes a terabyte for M$ to make an operating system that "looks" like OS-X. Good for them.

[1macker1]

Too hot? As we look toward the future, they will invent better cooling methods.
Did you even read my post?

Dothan/Jonas/Merom are intended as consumer processors, because the P4 (P7 architecture, in general) is way, way too hot. Dothan is a single-core 90nm Centrino, Jonas a dual-core version of the same processor, and Merom a modified version of Jonas. All of them are intended for laptops and general consumer use.

Intel has said, in their roadmap, that the P4 is going to slide towards niche-markets and be replaced in average usage.

[Windowlicker]

ROFLMAO (and believe me I don't write "roflmao" too often)! 4-6GHz, 2Gb RAM, 1Tb of storage!! nice one microsoft.. let's see.. I can install Panther on a rev a iMac -- and I can do it now, not after a year.

MS seems to think people are willing to buy completely new computers. the sad thing is that it's very probable that people will buy them. oh well, the software itself will be so expensive that you don't have to add too much to it to get a new setup bundled with longhorn.

[1macker1]

Rigth, if those are they true requirement, Apple better take advantage. Why people think Apple is in business aganist MS is beyond me. Apple is aganist Dell, Gateway, and Compaq. If Dell can't sell $500 systmes, this levels the field for Apple.
A minimum space requirement of one Terabyte in order to work? Does M$ know how big that is? Average size for OS-X 1-2 GB. It takes a Terabyte, two years from now to even run Longhorn? Wow, doubt you can get a PC with a couple of terabytes for $499 ($599 with rebate). And if it takes a terabyte for M$ to make an operating system that "looks" like OS-X. Good for them.

[SiliconAddict]

Guys keep in mind that those CPU specs hard drive sizes, etc aren't available today. How do you think MS is testing this software? How do you think their alpha/beta testers will test this software. Hell how would they fit that on even a DVD?!?!
"Look its prompting for DVD #7 for the Longhorn install."
"Wait I thought we were on #9 already?"

Someone pulled those specs out of their ***. If memory serves initial specs for Windows XP was around 700Mhz and that fell drastically when the final gold code was nearing release. I currently run XP on a 500Mhz/256MB system with zero problems. I'd bet cash that the specs are going to be WAY below this for the higher tiered system requirements.

[ITR 81]

Well it still looks like it has as a "Fish-Price" UI to me.

So if you need atleast 4-6GHz to run Longhorn..then that would mean Macs would be running around 5+GHz at that time?

I figure by the time Longhorn comes out we will have OS XI in 64bit form.

I think 10.5 or 10.6 will be last OS X before OS XI.

[thatwendigo]

I think the specs are wrong because this would run Dell out of business. They wouldn't be able to sell PC's for 400 bucks going by those specs. But who knows how the market will have change by 2007.

No, it won't. Let's take a quick trip through basic chip economics, shall we?

When you process-shrink your product, you can cut more of them from the same amount of silicon, thus increasing your overall yield if the fabbing is solid. As such, the manufacturing agency (Intel, in this case) can sell more processors off of less investment in raw materials, which can translate directly into cheaper processors than the previous generation, or be sunk into further advancement of the technology. Normally, it's both, in some mixture.

System-on-Chip designs, like the ones that basically everyone are working on (Freescale's 90nm e600 dual-core, IBM's Power5/975 dual-core, Intel's Jonas dual-core), are faster because of low latency from being on the same chip, more power efficient because you're not powering a single, extremely deep processor, and also better able to take advantage of things like SMP and SMT optimiziations, leading to performance increases you can't get from multi-chip designs. As such, they'll outperform their predecessors handily if at all properly designed.

By the time Jonas and Merom are released, they'll be consumer-priced and possibly at 65nm, which would make their manufacturing even more efficient. The Dothan (which is due this Monday) takes up less than half it's die. There's plenty of room for a second processor, if Intel works out the interconnects.

Yes, this will severly hurt the $400 market. No, it won't kill Dell.

[BakedBeans]

I think the specs are wrong because this would run Dell out of business. They wouldn't be able to sell PC's for 400 bucks going by those specs. But who knows how the market will have change by 2007.


very very good point

how would you make up-to-date budget comps.

and all this tal of 2005???? unless im very much mistaken then that is 7months away, if we see technology anywhere near that in 2005 then i will eat myself

[Dippo]

I seem to think that A LOT OF PEOPLE are still going to be using XP for a long time after Longhorn is released.

I still know LOTS of people that use still use Windows 98, and it's like 6 years old!

[geerlingguy]

My observations:

I am guessing that, just like XP, many pixels will be wasted for what MS thinks is 'eye-candy'. Take, for instance, the 'start menu' - it takes up almost the whole screen, and is very hard to use. I don't think it will change enough for most users to get much out of it.

Getting to your documents, programs, etc. is a pain on a PC; column view beats the pants off any file-navigation method on the PC.

Longhorn will be a cheap imitation of OSX.3, and whatever Mac OS is out by then (presumably X.6 or 7, or maybe even OS11) will be (again) generations ahead of Longhorn. Longhorn has the feel about it that Rhaphsody had for the Mac, but with one difference; PC users will buy it because they don't think there's an alternative, or can't bear the though of using a <gasp!> Macintosh.

:mad:

[Les Kern]

[mj_1903]

Anyone notice the Microsoft Longhorn stacks? Seems Microsoft took an Apple rumour (piles) and ran with it.

[thatwendigo]

Too hot? As we look toward the future, they will invent better cooling methods.

Oi!

Or, you know, they could just make cooler processors that run rings around the current Pentium 4s, like Dothan is likely to for most purposes.

Guys keep in mind that those CPU specs hard drive sizes, etc aren't available today. How do you think MS is testing this software?

I have a friend that's a relatively low peg on the Microsoft totem pole. He has dual Xeons, and probably a quad Xeon now that they're out, sitting in his office specifically to test code on. As someone else posted not long ago, AMD is offering reference samples of quad-Opteron servers as well.

Test as you go, bloat as time goes on.

How do you think their alpha/beta testers will test this software. Hell how would they fit that on even a DVD?!?!
"Look its prompting for DVD #7 for the Longhorn install."
"Wait I thought we were on #9 already?"

Blue-Ray, or streaming download.

Someone pulled those specs out of their ***. If memory serves initial specs for Windows XP was around 700Mhz and that fell drastically when the final gold code was nearing release. I currently run XP on a 500Mhz/256MB system with zero problems. I'd bet cash that the specs are going to be WAY below this for the higher tiered system requirements.

Could you go back and respond to my Trusted Computing post, if you don't mind. I honestly wonder if you still feel the same way after thinking about the points I bring up.

[Dippo]

That's great Les Kern...

Directly in the Recycling Bin is where Windows BELONGS!!!

[msandersen]

Longhorn, whatever its eventual name (probably something boring like Windows 2006) won't be the turkey some people hope for. They are spending a lot of money and manhours rebuilding Windows from the ground up, more or less. Many of the problems Windows has today are legacy. Longhorn is almost as drastic a change for Windows as OSX was for Apple. Actually, the OS9 to OSX transition is perhaps more akin to moving from Windows 98 to Longhorn. It's a totally different codebase. Except in the case of OSX, although a new Unix distribution, it has a long development history behind it at its core, most notably the 10 or so years of NeXTStep, but also from the whole BSD community, and all the exhaustive security work done for NetBSD which I believe has never been successfully hacked.
Microsoft isprobably reusing or rejigging chunks of existing code, but essentially it's all new (and untested). Currently with XP, they are constantly patching the leaking security holes, patches upon patches, because the underlying Windows architecture wasn't designed with security in mind, so even extensive changes from the original NT codebase won't help with the underlying problem. Longhorn is being rebuilt with security very much in mind, so their chances of getting good security for once is much improved, although they have the problem of any new unproven system.
I doubt those are the actual system requirement, however. I seem to have read those specs first as an indirect quote from Bill Gates that those are the sort of specs he EXPECTS are common by then, not what's to be minimum requirements, so Longhorn will be geared towards the near future somewhat. They're copying the concept of farming all the eyecandy rendering off to the graphics card, and considering how they've developed, and what they can do now, you shouldn't need anything much faster than the current top systems. At least I hope not. Microsoft doesn't have a good record here. The hardware industry very much rely on this bloat effect to drive upgrade cycles. A programmer friend of mine once said (a few years ago) that if Windows and MS software keeps growing at the rate it is, it will soon consume the entire solar system.

When I first saw the list of features for Longhorn, I had a definite sense of Deja Vu, because it was like a list for OSX from when it came out, plus some that seem 'borrowed' from BeOS, like the filesystem as a database concept, and the better use of Metadata. OSX could do well to implement a lot of BeOS's filesystem features, too. They employ some former BeOS filesystem engineers, after all. That's who designed the OSX journalling system.

But don't be fooled, it will be a very sweet OS, and probably better looking than XP. The 'Slate' theme looks fine to me, but the final will presumably look very different. But if the system requirements truly are that great, it will take a while to adopt this new system. Business certainly will just for the extra security (they have too much investment in Windows, and according to a recently leaked MS memo to Bill, they've been fully aware of this proprietary capture in Windows APIs for years and exploit it, they even acknowledged they would be dead without it).
But I'm sure OSX won't be standing still either, and Apple will pay close attention to Longhorn. But people will still go with what they know, like sheep, buying the MS propaganda. They'll have a release akin to the Windows 95 campaign.

Maybe Macs won't seem quite as expensive once the minimum requirements for Windows blows out.

[dieselg4]

Right now i have 160 Gigs of hard drive space
and 1280mb RAm.


next time i upgrade i will get a minimum of another 250gig hard drive
and 2 more gigs of ram.

and this is prob within a year

so in 3-4 years.

having over a TB of hard drive space. is realistic
and 3-4 gigs of ram. aswell

More important to Microsoft, who makes money selling software and especially office aps - Will businesses buy this? A big (and I mean BIG) percentage of business have resisted switching to XP for a number of reasons, including (albeit a few years ago) hardware requirements and percieved lack of new functions (the GUI doesn't count for most businesses). I work in an architectural firm, and we're still on windows 2000. Why? because we don't need XP to run AutoCAD, Photoshop, ARCview, etc. Will we switch to Longhorn? Who knows. . . .but the standard machine in our office has 512MB - 1GB of ram, and that's plenty for 90% of what we do. Maybe our rendering machine will have 3 or 4 GB of ram, but right now it only has 1GB. I would also bet that the entry level business machine, even in 2006 won't have more than 2GB of ram. . .

[icon4x]

Guys keep in mind that those CPU specs hard drive sizes, etc aren't available today. How do you think MS is testing this software? How do you think their alpha/beta testers will test this software.


I brought this up in this thread already, and someone pointed me to http://www.zdnet.com.au/reviews/hardware/storage/0,39023427,20282555-2,00.htm

Personally, I think they are developing it on a dual duce G5. ;)

[thatwendigo]

very very good point

how would you make up-to-date budget comps.

and all this tal of 2005???? unless im very much mistaken then that is 7months away, if we see technology anywhere near that in 2005 then i will eat myself

Who said there would be budget computers anymore? Maybe Microsoft and Intel have realized they can just cram things down others' throats and they'll buy it. Also, you're off. The release isn't slated until at least 2006, which by my count, is some 19 months away at the earliest.

[Mindcrime]

In this month's issue of Discover, in the Technology article the author went to Redmond to take a look at Longhorn. She waxed on and on about all the interface/usability improvements and how revolutionary they are supposed to be...and the kicker? the thing that impressed her the most were the Piles system for file managment. If you ever read of the Piles stuff that was on here right before Panther came out, and then read the article, you'd realize microsoft stole it, lock, stock and barrel.

Chris

[Dippo]

In this month's issue of Discover, in the Technology article the author went to Redmond to take a look at Longhorn. She waxed on and on about all the interface/usability improvements and how revolutionary they are supposed to be...and the kicker? the thing that impressed her the most were the Piles system for file managment. If you ever read of the Piles stuff that was on here right before Panther came out, and then read the article, you'd realize microsoft stole it, lock, stock and barrel.

Chris


Really piles?
Apple has a patent on that baby...doesn't it?

[1macker1]

And if 3rd party software companies (Adobe) add features that require Longhorn, this will also help MS's cause.

[SiliconAddict]

I disagree, because of one thing and one thing alone. Microsoft wants to push Trusted Computing, which will probably eat disk and clock cycles both, but will only really be a hog if they let it bloat. However, it's in their best interests to do so if it means that they can force people to upgrade to newer boards/systems that have the hardware implementation embedded. At that point, they've got you and you're locked into whatever upgrade scheme they come up with, whatever they want to do, because the system will be doing a much more active version of what XP does no - calling home.


No offense but you are WAY off on what Trusted Computing is anc can do. Trusted Computing is the most misunderstood concept in MS history closely followed by .NET or as I call it .CRAP

Trusted Computing is an authentication scheme pure and simple. Its intended to have all things being signed. Applications, e-mails, pictures, data packets, everything. This does NOT require disk space (well relativly speaking since there is probably a dbase handling the management of signed apps but really 1TB? I think not. And the overhead won't be any worse then what you'd get with WEP encryption, SSH encryption, VPN etc. In fact the overhead could very well be drastically less since there will be support chips both in the mobo and the CPU to aid in this process.
Now the first big complaint that everyone has is OMG!! MS is going to lock us into this proprietary system!!! Take a deep breath and relax. Note that this system is opt in. From what I understand MS will have this option disabled by default in Longhorn. This feature is going to be most appealing to the enterprise environment and govs who are looking for a tightly locked down computing network and make no mistake about it Trusted Computing can accomplish this.

[BakedBeans]

Who said there would be budget computers anymore? Maybe Microsoft and Intel have realized they can just cram things down others' throats and they'll buy it. Also, you're off. The release isn't slated until at least 2006, which by my count, is some 19 months away at the earliest.

so what are you saying that there wont be any budget computers????
silliest statement i have ever heard (not counting the "ill eat myself comment" ;) )

what would the world do without cheep computers???
it would have huge effects

[Veldek]

That's great Les Kern...

Directly in the Recycling Bin is where Windows BELONGS!!!

And did you notice? Longhorn is still in Alpha but step 3 wants you to download all 48 (!) Service Packs...

[rubikcube]

I have a copy from MSDN and I can say with absolute certainty that someone made those req's up. It runs perfectly fine on my pIII 733 with 256mb of ram. You just have to remember that microsoft is in the business of making money just like everyone else. Why would they publish an OS that only a few machines could run?

My opinion of longhorn so far is that it is exactly the same as XP with a few new interface enhancements, better file system searching(note that I didn't say better file system overall), and major security enhancements. I think they finally figured out the installer this time around as well.

[1macker1]

Yeah, most people buy cheap computers just to have one. No way will the bulk of the population bay 2K + for a computer. Hell i dont think the bulk of the population is wlling to pay more than 1K for a computer.
so what are you saying that there wont be any budget computers????
silliest statement i have ever heard (not counting the "ill eat myself comment" ;) )

what would the world do without cheep computers???
it would have huge effects
Consumer population.

[thatwendigo]

No offense but you are WAY off on what Trusted Computing is anc can do. Trusted Computing is the most misunderstood concept in MS history closely followed by .NET or as I call it .CRAP

No, I'm way off what they say it is and can do. I'm not off on what Palladium was and what it was supposed to do, and Palladium was the unsanitized TCI.

Trusted Computing is an authentication scheme pure and simple. Its intended to have all things being signed. Applications, e-mails, pictures, data packets, everything. This does NOT require disk space and the overhead won't be any worse then what you'd what with WEP encryption, SSH encryption, VPN etc. In fact the overhead could very well be drastically less since there will be support chips both in the mobo and the CPU to aid in this process.

You're missing the point, and thinking that they'll at all optimize the code, rather than using it as a leverage point to move bigger hardware. Think a little less charitably and start looking at how both Microsoft and the hardware vendors would benefit from an OS that is so new that they can advertise that just to hook some people, but which basically requires you to buy new hardware to use it.

Even if Trusted Computing is scaled back to signing alone, that's still intrusive. There was a to-do over the serial numbers being readable of certain chips, as I recall, though I don't seem to remember which Intel processor it was that allowed it to happen. Having all content signed by a user means trackability for anyone with certain information - like, say, Microsoft.

Now the first big complaint that everyone has is OMG!! MS is going to lock us into this proprietary system!!! Take a deep breath and relax. Note that this system is opt in. From what I understand MS will have this option disabled by default in Longhorn. This feature is going to be most appealing to the enterprise environment and govs who are looking for a tightly locked down computing network and make no mistake about it Trusted Computing can accomplish this.

It's going to be a selling point to enterprise and government, sure. It's also going to be somethng they pitch to media companies in order to try to lock people into WMP and WMA formats, their DRM, and the hardware in general - thus giving more kickbacks to the corporations that are supplying the boards and chips.

[thatwendigo]

so what are you saying that there wont be any budget computers????

Not ones that run Longhorn.

what would the world do without cheep computers???
it would have huge effects

You seem to have this mistaken impression that Microsoft cares about anything other than money and acquiring it for themselves. Why would they care what the world thinks?

[Zaty]

Reading all the posts, I found a few people said Longhorn would be out in 2005, while a few other said 2006 and most people seem to believe it will be released only in 2007.

I recently read in a article that someone at MS confirmed that the start ot Longhorn beta was pushed back to early 2005, the final relase should be finished by early 2006. This would hint at a mid-2006 release. My guess is Longhorn will be available in late 2006 (probably October '06).

[BakedBeans]

Yeah, most people buy cheap computers just to have one. No way will the bulk of the population bay 2K + for a computer. Hell i dont think the bulk of the population is wlling to pay more than 1K for a computer.

Consumer population.

plus think of the other implications, schools only being able to afford pcs that will run xp, ect... kids (future programers ect) not using the up-to-date learning euiptment

the whole thing about making it cheeper because of the smaller amount of materials used is rubbish.... what about the billions of dollars f high tech fabs to prouce them???

[encro]

Actually, with Nokia's software for Win, I already essentially had this feature. It had a "sync whenever device comes in range" function. I used IR to connect to my Win PC, so I had to actually turn it on, on the phone, to make it happen, but if my work PC had BT, it would've done it whenever I walked into the room.

I'm still kinda miffed that iSync doesn't have this feature -- it should not be too hard to implement, with some kind of intelligence, i.e. sync upon device entry into range if not synced in x hours or w.e.


Salling Clicker will allow you to set up sync on Proximity and Control your computer from your phone, its awesome:
http://homepage.mac.com/jonassalling/Shareware/Clicker/

OS X has crontab built-in so you could set it to sync up as frequent as you like:

Type crontab -e into Terminal.

For a sync at 7am everyday for instance, enter the following:

#minute hour mday month wday who command
0 7 * * * osascript -e 'tell application "iSync" to synchronize'


After you are done press 'Ctrl-X' then 'Y' to save. Easy as pie.

[BakedBeans]

Not ones that run Longhorn.



You seem to have this mistaken impression that Microsoft cares about anything other than money and acquiring it for themselves. Why would they care what the world thinks?

lmao.

im sure that microsoft wont care when its selling hardly any of its new multi billion dollar os because joe public cant afford the hardware to run it on.... but this will never happen because as you correctly stated microsoft do care about making money

EDIT: also if businesses and schools cant afford them then thats one huge chunk of money down the drain

[thatwendigo]

plus think of the other implications, schools only being able to afford pcs that will run xp, ect... kids (future programers ect) not using the up-to-date learning euiptment

What about them? You seem to think that Microsoft feels they have a responsibility to provide for education. It's a market, and they'll do what they think will make them the most money.

the whole thing about making it cheeper because of the smaller amount of materials used is rubbish.... what about the billions of dollars f high tech fabs to prouce them???

It's called return on investment. You spend money so that you make money later, when your product has matured and is being sold, repaying what you expended on research and development, fabbing, and so on. There isn't a single company in the high-tech world that doesn't operate on this principle, or anywhere in manufacturing, for that matter.

This is why bad decisions can send companies into bankruptcy. They spend the money to create products, but don't make enough back to cover the costs of develpoment.

Intel is good at not crossing that line.

[macdong]

Even if it does look better than OSX, it is important to not forget that OSX is now and Longhorn isn't. We know more about where MS will be in 2 years than where Apple will be in 2 months

nicely said!

[Dippo]

What about them? You seem to think that Microsoft feels they have a responsibility to provide for education. It's a market, and they'll do what they think will make them the most money.


All the schools I know still run Win98, and they don't have the money to upgrade. So they will probably still be using Win98 after Longhorn comes out.

[macdong]

I can only speak for myself, but I only use my Mac at home for personal use, but I use XP at work, and I can tell you, for what I do, it's very productive.

perhaps you want to shed some light on what you do?
because i can tell you, for what i do, Windows really doesn't work.

[1macker1]

It's gonna be like the early 90's again, where if you have a computer, you were considered rich.
lmao.

im sure that microsoft wont care when its selling hardly any of its new multi billion dollar os because joe public cant afford the hardware to run it on.... but this will never happen because as you correctly stated microsoft do care about making money

EDIT: also if businesses and schools cant afford them then thats one huge chunk of money down the drain

[thatwendigo]

lmao.

im sure that microsoft wont care when its selling hardly any of its new multi billion dollar os because joe public cant afford the hardware to run it on.... but this will never happen because as you correctly stated microsoft do care about making money

On the contray, when Microsoft sells bundles of its OS to hardware manufacturers, they make their money regardless of any sales by the OEM. Quite aside form upgrading users, they shift a huge number of units just off of manufacturers buying literal lots of Windows. So, when the affluent people who desire digital content protected under Trusted Computing buy new computers, Microsofy makes money from the OS, from their purchases of media, from software that is sold with the computer, and so on.

[macdong]

I think it'll be more secure; I think they'll turn off and disable so many services it won't be able to do much more than open a single copy of Solitaire.

turn off many services and at the same time bloat the OS.
how do they do it??
what's their secret??!!
ma, i wanna know!!

:o

[BakedBeans]

What about them? You seem to think that Microsoft feels they have a responsibility to provide for education. It's a market, and they'll do what they think will make them the most money.



It's called return on investment. You spend money so that you make money later, when your product has matured and is being sold, repaying what you expended on research and development, fabbing, and so on. There isn't a single company in the high-tech world that doesn't operate on this principle, or anywhere in manufacturing, for that matter.

This is why bad decisions can send companies into bankruptcy. They spend the money to create products, but don't make enough back to cover the costs of develpoment.

Intel is good at not crossing that line.

although off topic, i think you have got this whole thing wrong if people dont have computer they cant run windows = loss of money

[thatwendigo]

All the schools I know still run Win98, and they don't have the money to upgrade. So they will probably still be using Win98 after Longhorn comes out.

They might move to 2000, if they have sense and can get a volume discount on the newly obsolete hardware and software. Or, if they really had sense, they'd be on OS X. :D

However, this is kind of my point... People who are cheap or poor just make do with what they can, and Microsoft keeps aiming wherever it is they want to go with things.

[1macker1]

Telecommunications work. I've yet to see software for the Mac for DSLAMs, DAX's, VoiceGateWays, Bulk Call testers. These programs work just dandy on 98 - XP, but no Mac support at all.
perhaps you want to shed some light on what you do?
because i can tell you, for what i do, Windows really doesn't work.

[macdong]

This is going to turn into a Longhorn V OSX thread soon. :) I like the black interface. I'm tired of all the kiddie colors.

kiddie colors?
i am sure you are talking about XP's interface, which was rumored that it was designed by a group of kindergarten kids from somewhere near Bellevue uptown.
wait, that's my neighborhood...

[Hes Nikke]

I'm guessing that this won't run on Virtual PC, based on the requirements.

sombody better tell microsoft… i've seen an older build of longhorn (about a year old) running on VirtualPC 5 on a 550 MHz G4 :)

well... running isn't the right word... maybe walking... slowly :eek:

[1macker1]

So you are saying there will be no new PC's sold for under 1000 bucks anymore.
They might move to 2000, if they have sense and can get a volume discount on the newly obsolete hardware and software. Or, if they really had sense, they'd be on OS X. :D

However, this is kind of my point... People who are cheap or poor just make do with what they can, and Microsoft keeps aiming wherever it is they want to go with things.

[thatwendigo]

although off topic, i think you have got this whole thing wrong if people dont have computer they cant run windows = loss of money

I think you completely miss my point. Someone who would only spend $400 on a computer isn't going to be dropping a couple hundred more on digital movies, music, and other content that Microsoft could be making money off of. With the advent of Trusted Computing in consumer space, they can really push Windows Media as a source of revenue.

Someone who can afford a $2000 computer to run Longhorn can probably also afford $100-500 a year to buy movies and music, too. That's more money for Microsoft and their hardware partners and providers.

[pjkelnhofer]

It is just occured to me, a lot of people are making fun of the name Longhorn, but isn't that just the MS codename for it. Wasn't Windows95 called Chicago (http://www.air101.soft-welt.de/Chicago.html) during are it's alpha/beta days? XP was codename:Whistler (http://www.air101.soft-welt.de/Whistler.html). The point is we have no idea what the final release name will be.

As for the release date, the article at the start of the thread says:

Still, with Longhorn not arriving until 2007 (at the earliest)...

Not official, but the lastest date. When did XP come out, about two years ago? Five years between OS updates! Wouldn't it be nice to have a company update the OS regularly for a lower price, then gargantuan updates every three to five years. Like I said before, the first computers that shipped with XP will not run Longhorn (or whatever it's called) when it comes out, but my iMac that came with OS 9 installed (and OS X on a CD in the box) runs Panther quite nicely (four years and three OS's later).

[0 and A ai]

I saw the requirements before. A triple core 4-6 GHz (64-bit recommended) processor, 2 gigs of RAM, and 1 TB of HD...what the heck? And this is just to run the OS itself. As soon as you open solitaire, I bet it will come crashing to a halt with how many resources are going to be monopolized by Windows. I seriously cannot believe anyone would consider this kind of bloat to be acceptable.

This just reaffrims the fact that it is actually being delayed more than they are saying. 2007 those requirements won't be all that ridiculous.

[thatwendigo]

So you are saying there will be no new PC's sold for under 1000 bucks anymore.

Not ones that are running Longhorn.

I said it before, but I will explicitly state it now: The goal of Longhorn is to push new hardware, not to follow the older setups or technology.

[1macker1]

With apple aqua interface and XP's bright colors, i think it's time to move on. And the brushed metal concept isn't cutting it.
kiddie colors?
i am sure you are talking about XP's interface, which was rumored that it was designed by a group of kindergarten kids from somewhere near Bellevue uptown.
wait, that's my neighborhood...

[BakedBeans]

I think you completely miss my point. Someone who would only spend $400 on a computer isn't going to be dropping a couple hundred more on digital movies, music, and other content that Microsoft could be making money off of. With the advent of Trusted Computing in consumer space, they can really push Windows Media as a source of revenue.

Someone who can afford a $2000 computer to run Longhorn can probably also afford $100-500 a year to buy movies and music, too. That's more money for Microsoft and their hardware partners and providers.


microsoft are such a succesful company beause they put there os on most computers simple... are they going to stop that because of digital media.... i think not....

[Omad0n]

You know your right.. but its kinda funny. people were saying the same thing when 1GB was a huge amount.

now i couldnt install all my software in under a gig.

same thing will happen with 1TB :)
seems huge now in 10 years it will be average or almost minimum , My bet

You just hit the majic point, in 10 years 1 tb may be average. Right now though we're being told it'll happen in 2 years. how the heck are they gonna get the seek times up on those drives? Plus don't faster drives mean more friction, which means drives won't last as long?

::edit grammer::

[1macker1]

Unless something changes, all Dell's ship with the current version of Windows. So when Longhorn arrives, Dell will no longer sell sub 1K computers? I just cant see this happening.
Not ones that are running Longhorn.

I said it before, but I will explicitly state it now: The goal of Longhorn is to push new hardware, not to follow the older setups or technology.

LOL@ the low end Dell starting out at 1,600 bucks....NOOO WAYYY DUDE.

[Rower_CPU]

Too funny, Les.

1) "Tell me more about my mistake" - Please. For any software designers out there this is exactly the kind of blame shifting that makes computers so damn unfriendly for new users. Read something by Alan Cooper and learn a bit about interface/interaction design.

2) "Install all 48 service packs" - ****.

[Dippo]

Oh no, Microsoft is going to add "automatic game patching"

[macdong]

Here are more images of the AVALON UI

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003_aero_keynote.asp

and a small video in .wmv

http://www.winsupersite.com/files/pdc2003_avalon_transparency.wmv

i fail to see what's special about it.

[Beowulf]

From the screenshots, I can already tell this is going to be clunkier than the GUI of "Luna". Seriously, what's the point of having a huge analog clock (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/4074_ui_01.gif) with a digital readout of what time it is underneath it?

[BakedBeans]

Unless something changes, all Dell's ship with the current version of Windows. So when Longhorn arrives, Dell will no longer sell sub 1K computers? I just cant see this happening.

yeah, 100%correct all computer resellers/retailers sell newest os on there system... o by wentdingo theory then half the worl will stop buy pcs.... great business move right??? lol

[thatwendigo]

microsoft are such a succesful company beause they put there os on most computers simple... are they going to stop that because of digital media.... i think not....

You're not understanding the scope of things, here, because this isn't just about Microsoft. It's a hegemony, a collusion of the OS owner, the hardware manufacturers, and content providers to lock consumers into a certain model that will require profits all around for the people who hold the reins.

As of Longhorn, I'm betting that past generations of Windows Media will still work, but that every single bit of content that Microsoft can get their influence into will be distributed in TCI-protected format. You will have to buy one of these new, high-end computers to do anything online that involves video, music, print, images, and so on, if the company involved has been swayed to using the protected standard. With the degree of traceability and watchdog protectionism that can be achieved with a setup like the one going into the TCI sytem, they'll flock in droves, because the one thing you can count on in most businesses is greed.

This isn't just the OS. This is digital lifestyle, controlled by Microsoft. They want to own the internet and the content on it, as much as possible, so that they can bleed you that way, too.

[1macker1]

The bad thing I did see,was "Sending Personal Information to MS"...wth is that all about?

[Dippo]

Here's a nice screenshot...

Personally, they made it even more confusing.
At first glance, I didn't even know what I was looking at :p

[pjkelnhofer]

Not ones that are running Longhorn.

I said it before, but I will explicitly state it now: The goal of Longhorn is to push new hardware, not to follow the older setups or technology.

As much as I hate MS, I disagree. I think it is being designed for what the expect to be the architecture at the time. I would guess that MS made up the specs based on what the think AMD and Intel will be offering at the time.

For those who say there won't be sub $1000 PC's that can run Longhorn, I am sure by 2007, Dell will be selling 64-bit, 4 GHz systems for $500 bucks. We are talking three freakin' years from now people. How much is a $2000 top of the line Dell from three years ago worth now? Maybe $500 bucks if you are lucky? Dell makes cheap computers, they will continue to do so.

[Krrill]

With apple aqua interface and XP's bright colors, i think it's time to move on. And the brushed metal concept isn't cutting it.

For the record, that's called "Fads" And each generation goes through fads, and ideoligies etc etc... Basically, at this point in history brushed metal is all futuristic, so people are milking it. Ever go to Ikea or a smiliar place? They have different products, but they make sure that there is atleast 1 product of that kind that's in a brush metal state.

What I'm getting at, is that when the fads change, and people get sick and tired of a certian "look" things will change for the OS. But currently brushed is the way to go for a lot of consumers. I'm just hoping that it doesn't last too long, I want my Onyx look from BeOS, LOL JK

To the future, cheers! *Clinks glass*

[BakedBeans]

You're not understanding the scope of things, here, because this isn't just about Microsoft. It's a hegemony, a collusion of the OS owner, the hardware manufacturers, and content providers to lock consumers into a certain model that will require profits all around for the people who hold the reins.

As of Longhorn, I'm betting that past generations of Windows Media will still work, but that every single bit of content that Microsoft can get their influence into will be distributed in TCI-protected format. You will have to buy one of these new, high-end computers to do anything online that involves video, music, print, images, and so on, if the company involved has been swayed to using the protected standard. With the degree of traceability and watchdog protectionism that can be achieved with a setup like the one going into the TCI sytem, they'll flock in droves, because the one thing you can count on in most businesses is greed.

This isn't just the OS. This is digital lifestyle, controlled by Microsoft. They want to own the internet and the content on it, as much as possible, so that they can bleed you that way, too.

people that buy pcs want pcs not very expensive jukeboxes and video players

[pjkelnhofer]

Here's a nice screenshot...

Personally, they made it even more confusing.
At first glance, I didn't even know what I was looking at :p

Oh yeah, that is pretty confusing, Floppy Drive, CD Drive, etc.

What could these things mean?

Excuse the sarcasm, I am in a crappy mood today.

[1macker1]

I agree, I loved the aqua fad, but the bushed metal didnt hit home with me. I'm just egar to see what's next.
For the record, that's called "Fads" And each generation goes through fads, and ideoligies etc etc... Basically, at this point in history brushed metal is all futuristic, so people are milking it. Ever go to Ikea or a smiliar place? They have different products, but they make sure that there is atleast 1 product of that kind that's in a brush metal state.

What I'm getting at, is that when the fads change, and people get sick and tired of a certian "look" things will change for the OS. But currently brushed is the way to go for a lot of consumers. I'm just hoping that it doesn't last too long, I want my Onyx look from BeOS, LOL JK

To the future, cheers! *Clinks glass*

[Krrill]

Here's a nice screenshot...

Personally, they made it even more confusing.
At first glance, I didn't even know what I was looking at :p

Wow, that's one thing that's unnerved me for the beginning of time with Microsoft, I guess people just got used to it. But why in the bleeding hell of time and space do you have to go to a bleeding folder to get at your computer and your CD DRIVE!!!!!!!!!!!! I would really like to know why you have to spend extra time doing this.... It boggles my mind, it hurt, hurts, hurts *Cries*

[thatwendigo]

yeah, 100%correct all computer resellers/retailers sell newest os on there system... o by wentdingo theory then half the worl will stop buy pcs.... great business move right??? lol

There are almost seven billion people in the world, but out of those, less than a billion possess the resources to own a computer. Out of those, perhaps half actually own one, and most of those are going to be out-of-date machines running OSes that are by no means current, because they can't affored better.

Believe it or not, here in the US, even our poor tend to be better off than the general population of, say, Sri Lanka or Swaziland. However, with the middle class shrinking once more and an upwards trend in the wealth gap, it is increasinly the case that computers will be high-end purchases once more, unless something serious is done to change either the economics or the costs of the machines.

You can bet Intel is working on ways to sell things faster and cheaper. They've got a couple of rabid wolves nipping at their heels at the moment, after all, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Jonas or Merom core show up at the $1000-1200 price point by then. Lots can happen in two years.

[1macker1]

Maybe i'm a new tech junkie, but it looks way cool to me.

Here's a nice screenshot...

Personally, they made it even more confusing.
At first glance, I didn't even know what I was looking at :p

[msandersen]

Well it still looks like it has as a "Fish-Price" UI to me.
What price those poor fish will pay for their Longhorn UI distresses me too...

Fischer-Price ought to put out a Longhorn fish-toy, perhaps?
Anyway, it's early days yet, the final release will look about as much as the current Longhorn builds as the initial OSX Server looked like the 'final' OSX.

[BakedBeans]

There are almost seven billion people in the world, but out of those, less than a billion possess the resources to own a computer. Out of those, perhaps half actually own one, and most of those are going to be out-of-date machines running OSes that are by no means current, because they can't affored better.

Believe it or not, here in the US, even our poor tend to be better off than the general population of, say, Sri Lanka or Swaziland. However, with the middle class shrinking once more and an upwards trend in the wealth gap, it is increasinly the case that computers will be high-end purchases once more, unless something serious is done to change either the economics or the costs of the machines.

You can bet Intel is working on ways to sell things faster and cheaper. They've got a couple of rabid wolves nipping at their heels at the moment, after all, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a Jonas or Merom core show up at the $1000-1200 price point by then. Lots can happen in two years.

firstly sorry for the short replies (i just had my baby asleep on me so i have been typing with one hand)

so your saying there are only 250million computers in the world....
there are 10 thousand in my wifes call centre alone
not to mention how many call centres there are in the worl, plus schools ect ect ect

new machines will not sell half as well if they are very expensive so people will be forced not to upgrade...which will be a bad thing for ms...and intel and amd and a hell of alot of other poeple

[e-coli]

Here's a nice screenshot...

Personally, they made it even more confusing.
At first glance, I didn't even know what I was looking at :p

This is an extremely old build of the interface. The new layout and look is quite different. It's stunning, actually.

The only thing that's remained is the strange (and HUGE) back button in the top navigation. And the dark grey metallic color.

[SiliconAddict]

Oh no, Microsoft is going to add "automatic game patching"

Um actually that's not a bad idea considering how many patches games have appended to them post release. Instead of needing to go out to the software developers site you simply have to run or even schedule an update. Nice.

I've heard that MS was going to start providing windows update type services to other software companies but I didn't think it would be as soon as Longhorn. This could actually be a really nice feature if they get it implemented right.

[bdkennedy1]

I saw the requirements before. A triple core 4-6 GHz (64-bit recommended) processor, 2 gigs of RAM, and 1 TB of HD...what the heck? And this is just to run the OS itself. As soon as you open solitaire, I bet it will come crashing to a halt with how many resources are going to be monopolized by Windows. I seriously cannot believe anyone would consider this kind of bloat to be acceptable.

System requirements like this are normal for Microsoft. Everyone balked at Windows 95 and Windows XP's system requirements. All Microsoft does is try to predict what hardware will be available by 2007, and if you consider how fast we got the G5, Microsoft's system requirements don't sound so bad for 2007.

[coolfactor]

Maybe i'm a new tech junkie, but it looks way cool to me.

I haven't had a chance to review all your messages, but the two that I've seen so far don't jive with those of your typical Mac-wheenie expectations.

The Aqua interface, imo, is beautiful. Apple has brought aboard professional interface designers and delivered a sweet interface, and they continue to listen to users to improve it. The brushed metal interface has grown on me a lot. They didn't stop at the first version, as found on QuickTime years ago... they continue refining it into what it is today.

Now, have you used GarageBand (I haven't but seen screenshots). The glossy black that they have happening looks good, really good.

Every attempt that MS designers have made has been a complete disaster. Their "aqua" doesn't look real. Their brushed metal doesn't look real, and their glossy black (among other colors) doesn't look right at all. The highlights, angles of reflection, distance between objects, are all creating a complicated and cumbersome interface.

I really don't understand them sometimes. Even in 2006, they're still going to show an empty CD drive in My Computer? What's the point?

[1macker1]

Like i stated, i like the aqua interface , dislike the brushed metal. I didnt know MS had/has a aqua or a brushed metal. No i dont use GarageBand, haven't seen any screenshots. I'm ready for the next fad in GUI design.
I haven't had a chance to review all your messages, but the two that I've seen so far don't jive with those of your typical Mac-wheenie expectations.

The Aqua interface, imo, is beautiful. Apple has brought aboard professional interface designers and delivered a sweet interface, and they continue to listen to users to improve it. The brushed metal interface has grown on me a lot. They didn't stop at the first version, as found on QuickTime years ago... they continue refining it into what it is today.

Now, have you used GarageBand (I haven't but seen screenshots). The glossy black that they have happening looks good, really good.

Every attempt that MS designers have made has been a complete disaster. Their "aqua" doesn't look real. Their brushed metal doesn't look real, and their glossy black (among other colors) doesn't look right at all. The highlights, angles of reflection, distance between objects, are all creating a complicated and cumbersome interface.

I really don't understand them sometimes. Even in 2006, they're still going to show an empty CD drive in My Computer? What's the point?

[pjkelnhofer]

You're not understanding the scope of things, here, because this isn't just about Microsoft. It's a hegemony, a collusion of the OS owner, the hardware manufacturers, and content providers to lock consumers into a certain model that will require profits all around for the people who hold the reins.

As of Longhorn, I'm betting that past generations of Windows Media will still work, but that every single bit of content that Microsoft can get their influence into will be distributed in TCI-protected format. You will have to buy one of these new, high-end computers to do anything online that involves video, music, print, images, and so on, if the company involved has been swayed to using the protected standard. With the degree of traceability and watchdog protectionism that can be achieved with a setup like the one going into the TCI sytem, they'll flock in droves, because the one thing you can count on in most businesses is greed.

This isn't just the OS. This is digital lifestyle, controlled by Microsoft. They want to own the internet and the content on it, as much as possible, so that they can bleed you that way, too.

Wow! Talk about a dismal world view. C'mon, do you really believe all that? I don't think that there is this massive conspiracy between MS and the hardware makers. In some ways, the PC world benefits from seperate OS and Hardware manufactures. It causes them to push each other, not secretly force people into buying the latest equipment.

Do you think Apple makes computers just to make people happy. No, they are a business as well. They want to *gasp* make money, they want *gasp* profit.

Don't you think that if Apple suddenly got huge marketshare they would get slammed for insisting that they control both the Hardware and Software ends of their equipment? Talk about a conspiracy, why don't you complain that Apple killed the clones. Or makes it illegal to install OS X on a non-Apple PPC machine.

Doesn't Apple want to control the Digital Lifestyle. Isn't that what iLife and iPods are all about?

Sometimes, I wonder if a lot of the people who buy Macs buy them just because the are not the dominate computer, not because they are simply better designed for what they want a PC to do.

[SiliconAddict]

Wow, that's one thing that's unnerved me for the beginning of time with Microsoft, I guess people just got used to it. But why in the bleeding hell of time and space do you have to go to a bleeding folder to get at your computer and your CD DRIVE!!!!!!!!!!!! I would really like to know why you have to spend extra time doing this.... It boggles my mind, it hurt, hurts, hurts *Cries*


Because it's not technically a folder. The My Computer is a placeholder for your various drives be it hard drives, optical drives, floppy drives or network drives. Imagine the chaos if in a network environment you had 8 drive mappings being added to your desktop and then removed when you are off the network. Your desktop would be in a constant state of flux. By keeping everything under My Computer it keeps it relatively organized.
Its just as there is now a central location for all networking items under My Network Places that handles all things networking. Also it's a simple task to right click on the drive you want to select shortcut. Since you can't store a shortcut in My Computer it will prompt "Do you want to place this on the desktop" Answer yes and you have your drive on your desktop which you can just as easily drag to your taskbar toolbar.

[Dippo]

This is an extremely old build of the interface. The new layout and look is quite different. It's stunning, actually.

The only thing that's remained is the strange (and HUGE) back button in the top navigation. And the dark grey metallic color.


They must have just updated then because that was a screenshot from the build released at WinHEC...here's the link

http://www.flexbeta.net/main/articles.php?action=show&id=55&perpage=1&pagenum=2

http://www.cripplefight.com/smileys/ar15.gif

[amols]

One TB Hard Disk ??? May be it'll have 16 install disks. A few Linux disks may be. Just a funny thought.

[baby duck monge]

Oh yeah, that is pretty confusing, Floppy Drive, CD Drive, etc.

What could these things mean?

Excuse the sarcasm, I am in a crappy mood today.

ok, the CD drive i get, but what is this floppy drive they are talking about? is it some sort of new storage technology? :rolleyes:

[pjkelnhofer]

Because it's not technically a folder. The My Computer is a placeholder for your various drives be it hard drives, optical drives, floppy drives or network drives. Imagine the chaos if in a network environment you had 8 drive mappings being added to your desktop and then removed when you are off the network. Your desktop would be in a constant state of flux. By keeping everything under My Computer it keeps it relatively organized.
Its just as there is now a central location for all networking items under My Network Places that handles all things networking. Also it's a simple task to right click on the drive you want to select shortcut. Since you can't store a shortcut in My Computer it will prompt "Do you want to place this on the desktop" Answer yes and you have your drive on your desktop which you can just as easily drag to your taskbar toolbar.

I totally agree on this one. I have two three external drives that I do not use all the time, so I turn the off when I do not need them. It drives me crazy that no matter how many times I arrange it on my desktop exactly where I want it, it reappears in a new place the next time it gets turned on. I keep a bunch of things on my desktop and I hate then when I am using the drives everything gets moved around.

[Dippo]

Um actually that's not a bad idea considering how many patches games have appended to them post release. Instead of needing to go out to the software developers site you simply have to run or even schedule an update. Nice.

I've heard that MS was going to start providing windows update type services to other software companies but I didn't think it would be as soon as Longhorn. This could actually be a really nice feature if they get it implemented right.


Yea I agree that it's a great idea, but Microsoft always seems to take great ideas and implement them very badly.

I can see it now...

Run Game...
http://mars.mcs.kent.edu/Network/IETL/Labs/exclimation.gif Please update game.

Click Update Game...
http://mars.mcs.kent.edu/Network/IETL/Labs/exclimation.gif Updating...File rey45.dll cannot be found, update aborted.

Run Game...
http://mars.mcs.kent.edu/Network/IETL/Labs/exclimation.gif Incomplete update. Reinstall Game.

Get out CD, and reinstall...
http://mars.mcs.kent.edu/Network/IETL/Labs/exclimation.gif Game version mismatch, please update.

Click Update...
http://mars.mcs.kent.edu/Network/IETL/Labs/exclimation.gif Game not found in database, please report to Microsoft.

Report to Microsoft...
http://mars.mcs.kent.edu/Network/IETL/Labs/exclimation.gif You must now reboot.

[dontmatter]

I dunno, guys. So many cracks about how much longhorn sucks. Does anybody actually know? If they have a mac like GUI, not just in function but in form also... that's one thing they got right this time. Maybe they got the whole thing right? We should be just a little bit scared. It's not likely, but if this isn't just another whole pile of bugs.....

[unfaded]

The problem is, they will have a Mac OS X UI of today...in six years :) Where will we be by then?

[morespce54]

I saw the requirements before. A triple core 4-6 GHz (64-bit recommended) processor, 2 gigs of RAM, and 1 TB of HD...what the heck? And this is just to run the OS itself. As soon as you open solitaire, I bet it will come crashing to a halt with how many resources are going to be monopolized by Windows. I seriously cannot believe anyone would consider this kind of bloat to be acceptable.


Fortunately for PC users, probably the OS won't be out until 2010... Until then, we might all have 4-6 GHz computers... ;)

[shen]

I dunno, guys. So many cracks about how much longhorn sucks. Does anybody actually know? If they have a mac like GUI, not just in function but in form also... that's one thing they got right this time. Maybe they got the whole thing right? We should be just a little bit scared. It's not likely, but if this isn't just another whole pile of bugs.....

if.

question, what do you recall MS getting right? now figure the odds and get back to us.............. ;)

[asif3]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp

Jesus - those pictures are horrendous - how do microsoft's design team sleep at night?!?

[SiliconAddict]

there you go. "RAID now required. No one makes a HD large enough to fit out bloatware on a single drive"

Umm actually I expect to see RAID become standard in the future. A failed HD is the biggest potential for data loss on a computer. I'm betting in the next 4 years you are going to see SATA RAID become mainstream with 3x 500GB hard drives RAIDed. Cheaper end computer will always stick with single drives for price but higher end system will probably start to incorporate poor mans RAID.

[SiliconAddict]

Jesus - those pictures are horrendous - how do microsoft's design team sleep at night?!?


Probably perfectly fine since there are users who like the black/gray motif. I know I do.

[jasonbw]

if memory serves, the average machine when xp came out was in the 1ghz range...the specs for xp call for a 300mhz chip to run. even so, that suggests that longhorn will require a 1-2 ghz chip at minimum. according to the screenshots, the current install size is somewhere around 3.5 gigs, apparently not including the new ui.

i have the feeling that the specs are pretty high to encourage new hardware purchases, and this will help the adoption of janus. im just wondering if longhorn will actually require trusted hardware.

[Mr_Ed]

Hmmm. This OS seems to be perfect for easter. Did anybody else notice what longhorn wants us to do to our contacts in this screenshot (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/4074_ui_08.gif) ?

M.

LOL! Yeah, I have a couple of blonde, tanned contacts I'd sure like to "pin to the bar" :D

[pjkelnhofer]

The problem is, they will have a Mac OS X UI of today...in six years Where will we be by then?

Kind of link when Windows95 came out, and my friends and I refered to it as Macintosh84.

[Flowbee]

I dunno, guys. So many cracks about how much longhorn sucks. Does anybody actually know? If they have a mac like GUI, not just in function but in form also... that's one thing they got right this time. Maybe they got the whole thing right?

Wow. Never would have guessed that you're from... Seattle! :p

[zcar86]

Man, havn't seen so much windows bashing ever...

That's ok, you should've seen us bashing OSx over on the windows community

[Gherkin]

This thread made me realize how dilusional some Mac fans are. Kind of sad to see. The reason I'm switching to a Mac next month is because I think they currently have the best OS, the best working environment, and the best creative-type software available. If Microsoft can provide a better computing experience when I need a new computer after this Powerbook runs its course, I'll gladly drop Apple.

[SiliconAddict]

im just wondering if longhorn will actually require trusted hardware.


It WILL NOT. The feature will come disabled by default. Microsoft has stated this time and again because they don't want to scare the crap out of people.

[tristan]

You have to think back and compare to Win95. Suppose in 1990, Microsoft had said "well, you need a 486-133 to run Windows 95, but to really use it, you'll need a Pentium." Back in '90, you were styling if you had a 386SX. So maybe it's not that excessive.

One question though - is Longhorn 64 bit? It seems like it would be, given the RAM requirements. But if so, does Intel have any decent 64 bit processors on the way?

[Earendil]

I dunno, guys. So many cracks about how much longhorn sucks. Does anybody actually know? If they have a mac like GUI, not just in function but in form also... that's one thing they got right this time. Maybe they got the whole thing right? We should be just a little bit scared. It's not likely, but if this isn't just another whole pile of bugs.....

Yeah, as I read through this thread that is he one thing that naws at me. By the time LongHorn is released, a lot will have changed. M$ overall goal as a company, along with their business philosophy might not, but programmers will change, Artists will change, the design team will change. M$ is now KNOWN for being a buggy OS, so do you really think they are going to make the same mistake twice? They are evil, but they aren't stupid. And worst of all, or best, is that it won't be released for a VERY long time, giving them plenty of time to work out all the bugs, and add plenty of new and cool features that even Microsoft could pull off in that time frame. And with the Mac and OSX.5 running on the desk next to them, how can they go wrong?! :D

But seriously, I think we need to give them a little credit, and keep our eyes on this. Ignorance has been the downfall of all too many groups in Earths History.

Tyler

[Perceptes]

lollerz

M$ amuses me to no end.

[hayesk]

You have to think back and compare to Win95. Suppose in 1990, Microsoft had said "well, you need a 486-133 to run Windows 95, but to really use it, you'll need a Pentium." Back in '90, you were styling if you had a 386SX. So maybe it's not that excessive.

MS claims Longhorn will be out in 2006. Therefore, you would have to change your date to "Back in '93". In 1993, saying a 486-133 would not be too far fetched. Although I think the 486 never went past 99MHz.

Now 4GHz does not seem out of the question. But 6 and 1TB of hard disk in the *average* computer seems a bit much.

[crees!]

I'm sure this was posted earlier and I'm not about to go through 5 pages but hey, it's a good laugh.

During the presentation, a comparison of workflow in Longhorn and Windows XP by Jim Allchin, vice-president of Microsoft, reportedly went sour. When Allchin attempted to launch Quake on the Longhorn equipped machine, it slowly crashed and died. Allchin immediately attempted to downplay the glitch, saying the test PC was slow and the demo worked fine during previous tests.

[mullmann]

Here are more images of the AVALON UI

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003_aero_keynote.asp

and a small video in .wmv

http://www.winsupersite.com/files/pdc2003_avalon_transparency.wmv

Interesting. One of those images shows something called "stacks," which sounds awfully similar (in name and function) to the "piles" concept that has been rumored to be coming to OS X for some time.

Edit: what I get for not reading the whole thread first. Obviously this has been mentioned several times previously.

[jeffbistrong]

WITH WINDOWS . . . . IT IS SIMPLE . . . THE MORE COMPLEX THE SOFTWARE IS, THE MORE PROBLEMS YOU ARE GOING TO ENCOUNTER, THAT MEANS NEW SECURITY HOLE TO DEAL WITH, NEW UPDATES, MORE WINDOWS VIRUSES THAT ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS . . . . that is how simple it is . . .. WINDOWS NEEDS TO REDESIGN ITS OPERATING SYSTEM FROM THE GROUND UP WITH A UNIX CORE . . . then we can talk about progress . . . becuase microsoft does not make progress . . they make problems

[SiliconAddict]

Guys we need to stop referencing Paul Thurrott's site. Its going to curse Macrumors. The guy is the such a Microsoft Brown noser that he's been occasionally mistaken for a flap of toilet paper hanging from Gate's pants.

One of the most irritating quotes I've read from the freak:


There was no way this build was going to be anything less than excellent. It would kick the pony out of the recently released Mac OS X "Panther" and quiet the doubters. Longhorn build 4051 was The Promised Land (tm) and it would not just meet, but exceed, my expectations.

Again toss some OS X CD's over your shoulder for good luck or you may very well jinks macrumors :eek:

[icon4x]

It will be interesting to see what Steve Jobs shows when he releases TIGER at the WWDC in June. I wonder if Apple is revving up Tiger to blow the doors off Bighorn.... er Longgone... er Leghorn....

or maybe Apple just doesn't give a crap what MS is doing, since MS hasn't had an original idea since, uh, ever. :rolleyes:

[multifinder]

This thread made me realize how dilusional some Mac fans are. Kind of sad to see. The reason I'm switching to a Mac next month is because I think they currently have the best OS, the best working environment, and the best creative-type software available. If Microsoft can provide a better computing experience when I need a new computer after this Powerbook runs its course, I'll gladly drop Apple.

Yeah, but my guess is most of the people on this board would still be saying Apple was superior even if the only OS Apple had right now was Mac OS 9.2. I agree with your point--although I hate Microsoft with an admittedly irrational passion so in my case if Linux got to the point I felt it was better and as easy to use as OS X I'd make my next computer a Linux box.

I think Longhorn has a good chance of sinking under its own weight before it makes it to general release--I think Apple had the right idea and the best way to make a modern OS is to start over, with a Classic mode-like system for legacy compatibility. My experience with XP at work has been it's less stable than Windows 2000, so I can't even imagine how bad Longhorn will be.

[whafrog]

I highly doubt those are the system requirements for longhorn. Just remember, the dev team is running it unoptimized and in debug mode... so their computers would have to be much faster than the "system requirements."

Oh please. Unoptimized or not, the real question is: what possible features could Longhorn have that would require that kind of horsepower? Heck, Linux can still run on a 386. I can't think of a single thing the OS should be doing that requires a lot of processing.

[nagromme]

"If they have a mac like GUI, not just in function but in form also"

Windows has always, intentionally, been Mac-LIKE. Not good enough.

[ipoddin]

I don't see the average computer having a 1tb HD in 2 years...

Maybe it will...400gb hard drive is available now for about $400:

http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=22025

[MorganX]

As posted HERE (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13539) these bloated requirements are bogus.

[MorganX]

It WILL NOT. The feature will come disabled by default. Microsoft has stated this time and again because they don't want to scare the crap out of people.

I don't think it would scare people at all since security is the buzzword. Additionally, everyone is going to have Rights Management. Everyone. Not just iTunes but everyone.

FWIW, Palladium has been dropped for the most part. It will not be in Longhorn, the will use the NX bit in AMD processors and soon Intel processors instead. This is probably the big feature cut that will allow the beta in 2k5 and RTM in early 2k6.

[jcshas]

"4-6 GHz 2 gigs of ram and a terabyte of memory" Glad I made the switch! I doubt "Tiger" the next version of OS X will even come close to requiring that much horsepower.

[dopefiend]

I just had to register to help this thread die...

As MorganX has said, These specs are fake.

[Dippo]

This thread made me realize how dilusional some Mac fans are. Kind of sad to see. The reason I'm switching to a Mac next month is because I think they currently have the best OS, the best working environment, and the best creative-type software available. If Microsoft can provide a better computing experience when I need a new computer after this Powerbook runs its course, I'll gladly drop Apple.

Even you admit that the Mac has the best OS, so how does that make us all delusional?

Microsoft has a deep fundamental problem about how they view software and the world. Unless they plan on doing a complete 180, their next OS won't be any better than their current OS. Sure it will have lots of "new features" and plenty of eye candy, but it will just be the same old stuff just in different wrapping.

[armchainmstenw]

Watch silicon based computers suddenly become obsolete right before Longhorn comes out.

[negrito]

i just looked at some screenshots from the winhec longhorn release and i'm very deceived.

http://www.winbeta.org/winbeta/forums/index.php?showtopic=4324

in fact i was using all windows versions (from 95 to xp) until i switched to mac os x 1 year ago. i'm still interested in how microsoft develops its os and i thought longhorn would be all about user interaction but it's only about silly graphics. i think they forgot that gui includes not only graphics but also user!

i hoped this would be a revolution in how all programm menus are build (which entries where?) up and how you navigate between windows or how you organize you documents. but sadly there is nothing :( those personalized folder for music, pictures etc are nice but in fact they are overfeatured to be a simple folder and underfeatured to be an application (like iphoto) so what are they for?!

what about a general system preference pane where ALL my system preferences are displayed in ONE window! no they are still clutter over a dozen of windows that don't even show up in my taskbar! http://www.winbeta.org/longhorn/4074/wb-display.properties.gif in addition most preferences are almost 'hidden' somewhere in a window of a button of a tab of tab of a window of a button of a tab.

and how silly is it to put the 'quit' menu entry in the file menu?! or the preference entry in the extras menu?! this menustructure now exists since windows 95 and they didn't even thought about to completely overthink it! to me this longhorn version is like quark xpress 6 where they just added one feature to the other without to think about how to rearrange everything so that is is more efficient and suddendly they were overroled by someone who did it (in this example indesign).

i'm sad because i hoped this os would bring some big advantages to all my friends that are using windows and to me who has to fix it :( well i hope they will make it better in 2015 with buffalo ;)

[SiliconAddict]

WITH WINDOWS . . . . IT IS SIMPLE . . . THE MORE COMPLEX THE SOFTWARE IS, THE MORE PROBLEMS YOU ARE GOING TO ENCOUNTER, THAT MEANS NEW SECURITY HOLE TO DEAL WITH, NEW UPDATES, MORE WINDOWS VIRUSES THAT ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS . . . . that is how simple it is . . .. WINDOWS NEEDS TO REDESIGN ITS OPERATING SYSTEM FROM THE GROUND UP WITH A UNIX CORE . . . then we can talk about progress . . . becuase microsoft does not make progress . . they make problems


First off your caps lock key is apparently stuck either that or, STOP SHOUTING!

Beyond that Unix isn't inherently better then any other OS. Windows HAS the ability to be secure if they didn't recycle code and if they would rewrite the OS from the ground up and that is exactly what they are doing with Longhorn. They are rewriting from the ground up. Do you have any idea how many years longhorn has already been in development? I think they started in Fall of 2002. That is aprox 5 years this OS will be in development. A 5 year development timeframe tells me Microsoft IS taking development seriously. If they weren't serious they could simply pump out an OS next year. (In fact they are coming out with an interim XP release called Windows XP Reloaded.) Like it or not Microsoft has gotten the stability issue resolved with the NT core. Now they need to focus on security. If they can get that right (And from the looks of Windows XP SP2 they may be.) they could have a solid product.

[JoeMacDaddy]

Microsoft is going to make everyone buy all brand new equipment when Longhorn comes out just to run the OS. This will cost companies millions. Since everyone will need to forklift their desktops and servers, they might as well consider alternatives. Applications will have to be rewritten and tested. This could take years. This is a good thing for Apple. If you have to make a radical change to your infrastructure, you might as well evaluate your alternatives. :)

Since almost half of the MS installed base is running Win95/98 and enterprises are still primarily still Win NT. Everything is up for change.

[MorganX]

in fact i was using all windows versions (from 95 to xp) until i switched to mac os x 1 year ago. i'm still interested in how microsoft develops its os and i thought longhorn would be all about user interaction but it's only about silly graphics. i think they forgot that gui includes not only graphics but also user!

i hoped this would be a revolution in how all programm menus are build (which entries where?) up and how you navigate between windows or how you organize you documents. but sadly there is nothing :( those personalized folder for music, pictures etc are nice but in fact they are overfeatured to be a simple folder and underfeatured to be an application (like iphoto) so what are they for?!


Actually, the eye candy is turned off. You can turn on some of it in the latest beta but not the actual Aero UI. So what's being shown off is everything but graphics.

The GUI doesn't need to be reinvented just continuously refined. And IMO, they have most of what they need. Apple still needs to pervasively and consistently implement context-sensitive menus, yes they're there but not in the consistent pervasive manner they are in Windows. This takes years, and it helps to standardize on a two-button mouse.

Both OS X and XP/Longhorn are more complex than the graphics. I personally feel that the Windows UI lends itself to less obtrusive eye candy, by it's design. In fact, after turning on the effects (not the Aero Shell which has still not been seen) I don't know that I need more. I like the clean industrial look. I would love to see this build of Longhorn with the modest effects turned on running on a 20" iMac. That is computing nirvana. The first one to put them both together will win. MS is trying to push slicker hardware design, and OS X becomes more Windows-like with every patch release (er version).

Please, that's JMO, express yours, don't attack mine.

[MorganX]

Microsoft is going to make everyone buy all brand new equipment when Longhorn comes out just to run the OS. This will cost companies millions. Since everyone will need to forklift their desktops and servers, they might as well consider alternatives. Applications will have to be rewritten and tested. This could take years. This is a good thing for Apple. If you have to make a radical change to your infrastructure, you might as well evaluate your alternatives. :)

Since almost half of the MS installed base is running Win95/98 and enterprises are still primarily still Win NT. Everything is up for change.

This will be my last reply to misinformation but FWIW, Longhorn will scale the user experience to work relatively smoothly on hardware that does not meet the recommended requirements. The screens popping up are actually from the one that will display with no, or underpowered 3D hardware. Wouldn't it be nice if OS X did that?

Basically anyone running 2K or XP will be able to run Longhorn. A DirectX 9, 64MB, AGP 4x (not 8x, not PCI Express) 3D accelerator is all that's needed for the full Aeoro UI experience. They will have word on UMA (cheap Intel unified memory motherboards) soon.

[SiliconAddict]

It will be interesting to see what Steve Jobs shows when he releases TIGER at the WWDC in June. I wonder if Apple is revving up Tiger to blow the doors off Bighorn.... er Longgone... er Leghorn....

or maybe Apple just doesn't give a crap what MS is doing, since MS hasn't had an original idea since, uh, ever. :rolleyes:

Since went did having an original idea make you the sales leader? As long as someone can come along and copy you your originality will never matter. Marketing on the other hand is king. What do you think got MS to the position it currently is? Sure as heck wasn't the Billy Boys boyish good looks.


I really can't see tiger being that much more of a step above Panther. For the love of god the OS hasn't even been out a year. Assuming that they release it this fall how much can Apple do in a year's timeframe? Build a new 3D GUI in a year? I highly doubt it. Actually, don't hurt me, I'm hoping that Jobs anounces tiger will be out Fall of 2005. Lets see something other this incremental jumping that has been occurring from rev to rev.
Expose was innovative but it and the others features of Panther were just a drop in the bucket difference from Jaguar to Panther. Love or hate Longhorn or what MS is doing with the OS at least MS is going balls to the wall with the OS. Lets see the same with 10.4 Tiger take another 6-8 months and put out something that will blow away and shut up the Thurrotts of the world.

[Jonathan Amend]

Let me clear up some confusion:

Longhorn will not take up 1 TB of hard drive space. Those of you who interpreted the article in that way should re-evaluate your reading skills. The article merely said that the average computer at the time of Longhorn's release will have a 1 TB hard drive which is very plausible considering Hitachi just brought out a 400 GB hard drive. Those who are still going on about how Windows is bloatware because Windows 95 took up 150 MB of a 1 GB hard drive, you need to accept that things have changed. The average hard drive size now is about 80 GB and Windows XP takes up about 1.5 to 2 GB including the page/hibernate file. I think it's also worth a mention that a full install of Mac OS X Panther takes up more room than a full install of Windows XP, and that Mac OS X generally has a larger footprint in ram than Windows.

It's true that Mac OS X already has a hardware-accelerated user interface, but how is Microsoft's inclusion of one in Longhorn "copying"? I'd say it's on par with Macs adopting PCI slots or Macs adopting a driver-based system architecture, neither of which I consider "copying" but instead just inevitable technological advancements. The new hardware-accelerated interface renderer (not the new interface itself) is already present in the new 4074 build and enabling it is simple, as this news post explains: http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=19692&category=main.

Moore's law also won't be broken any time soon. It might not be Intel itself who is churning out the processors to keep it going but AMD and IBM are doing a pretty good job at it. As for Quake not running on the HP demo PC, I think it was a fluke as they claimed. I was able to play Far Cry just fine in Longhorn build 4053 on my second PC, which is a Duron 1.8 GHz with 512 MB ram and a Geforce FX 5200.

As for Longhorn being designed for high resolutions, it doesn't mean that screens will be huge or that everything will become tiny. Microsoft is anticipating that screens will have a much higher DPI than they do now and Longhorn will take advantage of this by dynamically scaling depending on the screen's size and resolution.

Once again, I'd just like to say that the hardware specs mentioned in the article are only what the speculated average will be at the time of Longhorn's release. They are not the minimum requirements and Longhorn is being to designed with different "modes" so that it can run on older systems less the eye candy among other things. Right now, Mac OS X's minimum requirements lock out a lot more or hardware than those of Windows XP, and I've used XP on a P233 with 64 MB (for which Windows has a special undocumented mode where it will be extremely memory conservative and only take up about 50 MB).

[dieselg4]

As long as Adobe, Autodesk, Bentley, Oracle, (insert software compnay name here) make thier newest releases compatible with Win 2k & XP, there will be no compelling reason for companies to make an investment in Longhorn, at least not untill Microsoft pulls the plug on security updates for older OS's. I would wager that companies geta lto more revenue from the software they run over the OS rather than the OS itself.

(word to Apple - convince Autodesk & Bentley to write their major products to OS X)

[pjkelnhofer]

As posted HERE (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13539) these bloated requirements are bogus.

What does that prove is bogus? Those are the graphical requirements for Aero Glass. That is the same thing stated in the original article.

[pjkelnhofer]

Microsoft is going to make everyone buy all brand new equipment when Longhorn comes out just to run the OS. This will cost companies millions. Since everyone will need to forklift their desktops and servers, they might as well consider alternatives. Applications will have to be rewritten and tested. This could take years. This is a good thing for Apple. If you have to make a radical change to your infrastructure, you might as well evaluate your alternatives. :)

Since almost half of the MS installed base is running Win95/98 and enterprises are still primarily still Win NT. Everything is up for change.

How is MicroSoft going to make one buy anything. Like you said many are still in NT. Why would they need to change? If NT works for what they do, then it is not a big deal. NT will still work for them in 2007 when Longhorn comes out.

[jessefoxperry]

anyone have any screen shots of Longhorn? im not surprised to hear it looks like osx but i just want to see how bad they copied it. anyone?

[gauriemma]

I spoke to soon..

I found these from our friend Paul Thurrott

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_4074_01.asp


Geez...That's ugly, even for Windows. And what's with the HUUUUGE clock in the lower right hand corner? Is that so you can accurately count down the seconds until the next OS crash?

[frankly]

wow, actually im quite excited to use longhorn. of course those requirements are bogus...kind of nice to see the future of what MS has...im all for it. :)

The problem is that none of the features they have mentioned are ground breaking today. So, in three years they will be old news.

Frank

[frankly]

I've seen the latest internals. They have a new interface and skin called "glass", and, yes, it is very similar in look to OS X.

IMHO, it looks better than OS X.

:(

That doesn't matter when the product isn't going to be released for another 3 years. Hell, Apple is going to introduce a new version of OS X this summer and probably release it within six months of that. They have released a new version every fall for the past three years. If they continue suit then we will probably be three versions past where we are now when Longhorn is actually released.

Frank

[D*I*S_Frontman]

OF COURSE the hardware requirements for Longhorn are going to be HUGE.

OF COURSE it will be vulnerable to hacks and require constant service pack maintenance and a good anti-virus program.

The reason is simply this: too many livelihoods are at stake, besides the obvious ones (Billy-boy and M$).

COMPUTER MAKERS: Computer makers have to "herd" customers into buying new computers, keeping that 2-3 year turnover happening. That's difficult to do these days, seeing that personal computers are already incredibly powerful. My Pismo, circa 2000, can run Panther flawlessly, surf the net just fine (wirelessly), do any word processing/database/spreadsheet work I need it to, host 1.6 GB of iTunes music, and play DVDs. For most users, that's more than enough--and the only way you can get such people to upgrade is by coercing them into it. Make things they do now require new software to remain compatable, then drag them into buying new hardware.

SERVICE & SUPPORT: These people need to eat as well. A stable, mature operating system is less likely to break down or create problems than a new, buggy one. Why do so many people still use 98? It works. Get a newer Windows system running on a client's machine, and the phone to your service center never stops ringing--nor does the cash register.

SOFTWARE DESIGNERS: Nothing empties more pockets than software upgrades that require a new machine or at least a new OS to run properly, or at all. The promise of greater productivity is all the "carrot" you need when being beaten by that "stick." And can you imagine the absolute BOON to virus protection software companies when this thing comes out?

There is an entire dysfunctional, codependent infrastructure that has to be maintained here. The LAST thing service centers and virus software designers want is a STABLE and/or SECURE Longhorn. The buggier and looser, the better.

Mac fans don't always appreciate this, having well-built systems that get replaced every 5 years instead of every 2, never needing tech support of any kind, and not even owning one shred of viral protection software for OSX systems. We don't really endure the same parasitic relationships. We boil it down to just one--the user and Apple. And while Apple is not flawless, the system works for me.

My last virus infection? The "Scores" virus, affecting my 512KE floppies. 1989. My last HD crash? Overloading the 40MB drive on my LC, 1994. This is what Mac support people have to deal with--they get less work per installed user than the Maytag Man.

I won't even begin to tell you the constant stream of problems associated with the HP Pavillions and the Compaq Presario laptops from my previous employment. Yikes.

[frankly]

Sun is rock solid, too, but obsessed with Java. Sun's OSes have typically been real borring, requiring very low system requirements, and teh user having an above average knowledge of Unix. Sun builds some of the most reliable, efficient systems ever built. I've seen Sun boxes run for 5 years in a production environment without any downtime. Sun has never been that user friendly, designed more for use and support by technical professionals (a very limited market), but they are probably some of the most reliable systems ever created.

I wrote this on an Ultra 10.

Java is a great programming language. I'm glad that Sun continually invests the time and effort needed to keep improving it.

Frank

[icon4x]

Since went did having an original idea make you the sales leader? As long as someone can come along and copy you your originality will never matter. Marketing on the other hand is king. What do you think got MS to the position it currently is? Sure as heck wasn't the Billy Boys boyish good looks.


I really can't see tiger being that much more of a step above Panther. For the love of god the OS hasn't even been out a year. Assuming that they release it this fall how much can Apple do in a year's timeframe? Build a new 3D GUI in a year? I highly doubt it. Actually, don't hurt me, I'm hoping that Jobs anounces tiger will be out Fall of 2005. Lets see something other this incremental jumping that has been occurring from rev to rev.
Expose was innovative but it and the others features of Panther were just a drop in the bucket difference from Jaguar to Panther. Love or hate Longhorn or what MS is doing with the OS at least MS is going balls to the wall with the OS. Lets see the same with 10.4 Tiger take another 6-8 months and put out something that will blow away and shut up the Thurrotts of the world.


Who's talking about marketing? I was talking about innovation. But since you mentioned it, I hope Apple is learning how to market - ala iPod. However, Apple has never tried to market to the low-end user. They go for the high-end market share.

Ah, but then there's the iPod marketing dream.. teh product that markets itself...
iPod is something that people will buy. A 40GB MP3 player (we know it is more than just an MP3 player) that is compatible with Windows and Mac. It's something people can measure against anything else on the market and see that it crushes anything else out there. How do you crush a 3.4 GHz processor with a 1.6GHz processor, and justify the $1600 price difference (and not even get a new monitor out of the deal)? Most people don't understand the technicals, they want something that will run their windows apps, and allow their kids to write up school reports. If the system lasts 3 years, they are happy. Insecurity? Who cares, they turn it off when they aren't using it, anyway. Why would anyone spend that much money on something that will be obsolete in 6 months, when a $300 computer will do the trick??? Apple doesn't make computers for the $400 computer buyer... mmmmaybe if you count the $799 eMac, but that's stretching the wallet.

Apple doesn't need to go balls to teh wall with Tiger, because they already did with OS X. OS X really is the most advanced OS in the world, but I think they can push harder on the marketing of OS X instead of iMacs, and the new G5. Apple's hardware is awesome, but OS X is by far the core that makes the Apple sweeter.

[icon4x]

Java is a great programming language. I'm glad that Sun continually invests the time and effort needed to keep improving it.

Frank


I agree, but I don't think Java alone is enough to keep Sun in business.

[PowerMacMan]

Since went did having an original idea make you the sales leader? As long as someone can come along and copy you your originality will never matter. Marketing on the other hand is king. What do you think got MS to the position it currently is? Sure as heck wasn't the Billy Boys boyish good looks.


I really can't see tiger being that much more of a step above Panther. For the love of god the OS hasn't even been out a year. Assuming that they release it this fall how much can Apple do in a year's timeframe? Build a new 3D GUI in a year? I highly doubt it. Actually, don't hurt me, I'm hoping that Jobs anounces tiger will be out Fall of 2005. Lets see something other this incremental jumping that has been occurring from rev to rev.
Expose was innovative but it and the others features of Panther were just a drop in the bucket difference from Jaguar to Panther. Love or hate Longhorn or what MS is doing with the OS at least MS is going balls to the wall with the OS. Lets see the same with 10.4 Tiger take another 6-8 months and put out something that will blow away and shut up the Thurrotts of the world.

I'm sure Apple is planning on a 3D OS. There's still 3 (at the least) more releases of Mac OS before Longhorn even comes out... Who's to compare the CURRENT Mac OS to the FUTURE Longhorn

[frankly]

Is it me or is MS suffering from a bit of Hubris?

Are you referring to the install directly into the recycle bin? If so, while I think that is hilarious, how is it hubris?

Frank

[Mac|caM]

I also read that during the presentation, they were doing a comparison between XP and Longhorn on two different computers, and the guy tried to open Quake on the Longhorn PC, and the whole computer froze up. Doesn't surprise me at all.

[dontmatter]

Sometimes, I wonder if a lot of the people who buy Macs buy them just because the are not the dominate computer, not because they are simply better designed for what they want a PC to do.

I'd say those are one and the same. Apple is better because they have to be to sell computers with 3% market share. Microsoft doesn't even need to bully and abuse it's market share to keep people on the platform. Windows machines are cheaper, because there are more of them. People are going to buy them by default, because that is what they see. If they don't go buy default, and think about their purchase, realize there ARE other options...they're still likely to stick PC, because if they aren't too tech savvy, it's a hell of a lot easier being on a computer where you can ask anybody a question about it, and they'll answer, than a mac, where most PC users are bewildered. If you use your computer more actively than that, PCs have a lot more going on with them, a lot more people making software, a lot more companies searching for a niche, a lot more compatibility. Not to mention, maybe there's enough with apple, but it as far as what WILL be, nobody can quite say.

That is why apple is so much better than PC's. They have to be, if they want anybody to buy them. There's a hell of a lot of incentive for people to buy winblows boxes, so apple has to provide equal incentive for people to buy macs, just to maintain their market share. Since they can't do this by widnows techniques of dominating the market, they have to make good computers and software.

If apple had 95% market share, and windows had 3%, apple would act like windows, and widnows like apple. Correction: apple would BE windows, and widnows would BE apple.

[frankly]

Telecommunications work. I've yet to see software for the Mac for DSLAMs, DAX's, VoiceGateWays, Bulk Call testers. These programs work just dandy on 98 - XP, but no Mac support at all.

That isn't what you said originally. Here you are pointing out programs that are only available for Windows. In your original statement you said that Windows was about productivity.

Just because the app is available does not equal productivity.

Take the same type of software on both platforms and see which one is easier to use. That is the question. Most people notice two things:

1) Windows has a tendency to get in your way.
2) Apps written for windows DO NOT follow any standard UI guidelines.

Frank

[frankly]

With apple aqua interface and XP's bright colors, i think it's time to move on. And the brushed metal concept isn't cutting it.

I prefer brushed metal apps. I absolutely positively LOVE being able to grab the window from any brushed metal part and move it around. That is convenience.

Frank

[benpatient]

well i can't wait to see how you guys twist everything around when whatever this OS gets called finally comes out and it runs great on a 2.5ghz P4 with a radeon 9800, 1 GB of RAM and has an install size of 2 DVDs and a 15GB hard drive footprint.

I hope someone goes back to this thread and brings it back to life when the official system specs are announced, and we've all seen that the IU is clean and small and functional and fluid and fast and in general just revolutionary, and the WinFS system is actually what it's supposed to be.

You all seem to really, honestly believe that MS's talent isn't as "talented" as apple's...

i wonder why it's so hard for some of you to think rationally and realistically...

[frankly]

Maybe i'm a new tech junkie, but it looks way cool to me.

The point of an OS is not to "look cool" but to be intuitive. Sorry, but I don't think it is intuitive to have separate locations for every type of storage device. Why should I have to potentially hit the drop down arrow for all of those types of devices? Wouldn't it be easier to simply see the devices that are mounted?

That is the problem with Windows. You see a CD even if there isn't a CD loaded. You see a floppy icon even if a floppy isn't loaded. What a waste. And it makes the OS non-intuitive.

Frank

[SiliconAddict]

I also read that during the presentation, they were doing a comparison between XP and Longhorn on two different computers, and the guy tried to open Quake on the Longhorn PC, and the whole computer froze up. Doesn't surprise me at all.

Ya and we won't discuss how many times OS X probably froze while it was in Alpha release :rolleyes: Brains. Its not just for rocket scientists anymore. Try this. The entire graphics engine of Longhorn is still in freaking ALPHA! And you are trying to run a game that probably runs right on top of that graphics engine. :rolleyes:

[frankly]

Man, havn't seen so much windows bashing ever...

That's ok, you should've seen us bashing OSx over on the windows community

Funny how you were wrong though, isn't it?

Funny how all the Windows users I know are jealous of my OS X machines and wish they could run OS X on their machines.

[Windowlicker]

I think i've posted this before, but i thought that I would again, just because it has some relevance in this thread. Sun has produced a 3d OS called project "looking glass", and it really looks quite amazing. They show the demo on their website, and the begining is quite boring and dull, but once they get into the meat of the presentation (when they actually show the OS) it's amazing. Here's the link to their looking glass demo: Eat this Microsoft (http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html)

a bit off topic, but if you check out the video, pay attention to the real media movie on point 00:04:26... it features a very familiar laptop :)

[applekid]

It's a hoax. Microsoft isn't that stupid. But did you hear about what kind of video card you need for the interface alone? Much higher than Quartz.

[Jookbox]

i'm not gonna bother reading the comments in this thread. once you've read one OMFG microsuck windowze threads, you've read them all.

[Colonel Panik]

Ha Ha Ha...

I haven't read any of the replies yet. That's just laughing at the sys requirements. What a joke... and it will still suck.

[a_iver]

That's ok, you should've seen us bashing OSx over on the windows community

Wow. That is truly hilarious, especially considering...

wait a sec...

what are you doing on a mac site anyways. I suppose their isn't to much going on in those MS rumor sites huh, that is besides looking at screenshots.

Let me remind all of you that pretty interfaces are nice but making a theme for XP isn't the same as getting a new OS.

EDIT: And now that I read my post I realize that my signiture is more relevant than ever

[Freg3000]

well i can't wait to see how you guys twist everything around when whatever this OS gets called finally comes out and it runs great on a 2.5ghz P4 with a radeon 9800, 1 GB of RAM and has an install size of 2 DVDs and a 15GB hard drive footprint.

I hope someone goes back to this thread and brings it back to life when the official system specs are announced, and we've all seen that the IU is clean and small and functional and fluid and fast and in general just revolutionary, and the WinFS system is actually what it's supposed to be.

You all seem to really, honestly believe that MS's talent isn't as "talented" as apple's...

i wonder why it's so hard for some of you to think rationally and realistically...

As a clear, rational, and realistic thinker, I can affirmatively say with no uncertainty that Microsoft's talent is not as talented as Apple's.

If you don't believe that, you are living in a dream world. Just look at what OS Window's users are using, and what OS Mac users are using.

[AppleSox]

Here are more images of the AVALON UI

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/pdc2003_aero_keynote.asp

and a small video in .wmv

http://www.winsupersite.com/files/pdc2003_avalon_transparency.wmv

Maybe this is totally different but you know where he gets all excited over the movie playing thumbnail size? Well, doesn't OS X do that already in the Dock with a Quicktime (or whatever) playing? Or is this a whole other thing? You can correct me if I'm wrong about it. :)

[Colonel Panik]

It is just occured to me, a lot of people are making fun of the name Longhorn, but isn't that just the MS codename for it. Wasn't Windows95 called Chicago (http://www.air101.soft-welt.de/Chicago.html) during are it's alpha/beta days? XP was codename:Whistler (http://www.air101.soft-welt.de/Whistler.html). The point is we have no idea what the final release name will be.


Yeah, they're waiting for Apple to come up with a good name, like OS X, so that they can call theirs XP.

So, if Apple's on Lynx when they release it, then they'll probably call it Windows LXs. They'll think that's cool, because it's pronounced 'Windows Licks', and they'll say that Windows no longer sucks. But they'll be wrong.

[k2k koos]

Well then... Longhorn,..and an interface called Glass, very original indeed.... seing is believing I guess, in 2005....when we are running Tiger, or god knows what other furry cat...... My guess is that our feline will have a longhorn for breakfast....