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JesseJames
May 6, 2004, 12:52 PM
Well, I think this is the first thread to discuss this. I still can't believe those photos of the naked dogpiled Iraqi prisoners.
What the hec were those soldiers thinking? Just goes to reinforce some social theories I have of human beings.
As a former soldier myself, I am appalled and aghast at this behavior from "The Finest Army in the World". This is definitely a black mark in the history of the U.S. Army.
I'm pretty sure the brass is going to come down hard on the people that were responsible for this. I saw the parade of CentCom brass making their apologies to the press corps and the Iraqi people. I believe that the General that was in charge of the prison was at least fired. I'm not sure if she was regular Army or Reserve. If she was Reserve I wonder what she did in her civilian life.
I'm beating around the bush here but she strikes me as one of those "corporate climbers" that I've seen when I was in the Army. They are smart but willing to do almost anything to get to the next paygrade. In essence, a ********* artist.
The troops resented the hell out of officers and noncoms like that. The frightening thing is, that they do get promoted. :rolleyes:

dragula53
May 6, 2004, 01:25 PM
these kids are thrown into this position of responsibility, they can't even balance their own checkbook, much less take care of another human being in a respectful manner.

I am not defending the soldiers and their extremely stupid actions that are going to have far-reaching ramifications.

Occupying any place with an army isn't ever pretty.

Comparing pictures of naked iraqis to any kind of human rights violation is a gross exaggeration.

But that's my .02.


moo

MongoTheGeek
May 6, 2004, 01:30 PM
I'm pretty sure the brass is going to come down hard on the people that were responsible for this. I saw the parade of CentCom brass making their apologies to the press corps and the Iraqi people. I believe that the General that was in charge of the prison was at least fired. I'm not sure if she was regular Army or Reserve. If she was Reserve I wonder what she did in her civilian life.
I'm beating around the bush here but she strikes me as one of those "corporate climbers" that I've seen when I was in the Army. They are smart but willing to do almost anything to get to the next paygrade. In essence, a ********* artist.
The troops resented the hell out of officers and noncoms like that. The frightening thing is, that they do get promoted. :rolleyes:

The general in charge was moved to other duties IIRC. I think they are mulling how hard to land on the various people.

The general and (I think) all of the soldiers who were involved were reserve. There were a couple of CIA consultant interrogators who were also in the middle of this. I don't think any regular army people were. Its all weekend warriors and civilian contractors.

As for the contractor that raped the prisoner, I think would have locked him up in a little cell, called it treason (giving aid and comfort to the enemy) try him for that just to get him swearing up and down, "No I swear I raped him! He didn't like it one bit."

All I hope is that the people involved get far worse than what happened to that combat colonel a few months ago who threatened to shoot the spy who knew about the imminent ambush.

Foucault
May 6, 2004, 01:32 PM
It is obvious that the soldiers involved in the incident do not represent the vast majority of Americans and military that are doing their jobs right now. But for some reason, I almost expected something like this to come out since the war began, and I was just surprised it took so long for this to be released to the public.

Juventuz
May 6, 2004, 01:40 PM
Well, I think this is the first thread to discuss this.

Uhh no it's not. Try the Politics forum.

mactastic
May 6, 2004, 02:38 PM
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=70218

wdlove
May 6, 2004, 09:33 PM
I just pray that this incident doesn't affect the way our troops are viewed. Our soldiers have served honorably, I appreciate their service.

Les Kern
May 6, 2004, 10:05 PM
these kids are thrown into this position of responsibility, they can't even balance their own checkbook, much less take care of another human being in a respectful manner.

My 9-year old has more compassion, and your thought is without substance. And remember that it wasn't indicative of a problem with the entire armed forces, rather, understanding that there are always bad apples, it just wouldn't have happened if Bush and his neo-cons had kept their hubris in check. Now we are stuck with a bigger problem than the prisoner scandal, and it's going to get a lot worse.
I always go back to my observation a few years ago: As a nation we are without vision. 87BN dollars could go a LONG way to dramatically reducing and even eliminating our need for their oil. So now Bush sets us up to fail, the bad-apples do what bad apples do, and 200 years of goodwill are nearly destroyed in one week.
Bush lied and should be censured
Cheny lied and should be censured
Rumsfeld is Rumsfeld, and he should be fired
Rice lied and should be supoened and sent to Leavenworth
Powell is spineless and should retire

Les Kern
May 6, 2004, 10:08 PM
The general in charge was moved to other duties IIRC. I think they are mulling how hard to land on the various people.

Well, it seems that a US soldier KILLED an Iraqi in prison. His sentence? Reduction in rank and dishonerable discharge. So now we can kill another human, but since we are in charge we will protect our own. Those who did that need to pay dearly.

mactastic
May 6, 2004, 10:08 PM
I just pray that this incident doesn't affect the way our troops are viewed. Our soldiers have served honorably, I appreciate their service.

Pray harder. It's already affected the way our troops are viewed, and not for the better. They are in more danger now because if this.

Les Kern
May 6, 2004, 10:11 PM
Comparing pictures of naked iraqis to any kind of human rights violation is a gross exaggeration.

Not in the eyes of most of the world. See, however much hated, the US was always looked at as being more fair than your average country. Now the torture, however "minor", is seen as more than some photos. Read some of the stories from around the world. Look for the "respected" analysts, not the jihadists or the other extremists. You'll see something that terrifies me personally.

Les Kern
May 6, 2004, 10:13 PM
Pray harder. It's already affected the way our troops are viewed, and not for the better. They are in more danger now because if this.

Yep. However unfair that is in reality, it is true nonetheless. Pull them out in July before it's too late.

D0ct0rteeth
May 6, 2004, 10:17 PM
I just pray that this incident doesn't affect the way our troops are viewed. Our soldiers have served honorably, I appreciate their service.

No. It will not affect anything. It will re-inforce how our troops are viewed.

We have utterly destroyed the Iraqi coultry and believe that the arab nations have to "understand that we care, and know what is best for them" How racist. How shallow.

“This is not America,” said George Bush on Wednesday, pleading the national case to the Arab world.*“America is a country of justice and law and freedom and treating people with respect.”


No, America is a country built on genocide, slavery and insatiable land-piracy, where even the lowest status white person is a king or queen compared to a “hajji” or “gook” or some other variety of “******.” This is the cultural well from which springs America’s ceaseless domestic and international wars, the fountainhead of aggression as a national trait. It is also the national characteristic that renders Americans unfit to “change the world” – Bush’s favorite refrain. The same racism that encourages Americans to believe they have a right to dominate the planet, prevents them from perceiving non-whites as human beings.

The abuse of Iraqi prisoners was inevitable. The plan to invade Iraq presupposed that its people are inferior and unworthy of thought or consideration…. They hate us because after we kill and destroy we ask stupid questions as if we were innocent.

We cannot succeed in Iraq because or definition of success is in and of itself unattainable and truly a huge failure.. intentionally changing the culture and ethics of a race of people is disgusting and impossible at the same time.. ask FreeFromPC.. I got sick a year ago when we invaded Iraq.. this whole thing is insane.

mactastic
May 6, 2004, 10:26 PM
You guys should take this to the political section.... Follow the link above.

Les Kern
May 6, 2004, 10:46 PM
I got sick a year ago when we invaded Iraq.. this whole thing is insane.

Yeah brother.

Chip NoVaMac
May 7, 2004, 02:33 AM
I just pray that this incident doesn't affect the way our troops are viewed. Our soldiers have served honorably, I appreciate their service.

Never mind or troops, but what about American in general?

Some have said that it will be 40 years before this transgression is forgotten.

As much as our "born again" President would love to portray one side of the coin, he needs to look at the greater issue of "religious" peace. he may look at these people as evil. But he also needs too look at those without sin to cast the fist stone.

Many want to point to the extremest element of of Islam. But what about the extremist American attitude. Who is truly in the grave of God to decide who is right?

History is written by the victors. And the victorious are not always right....

tveric
May 7, 2004, 03:32 AM
Pray harder.

Why? Will that do something?

Millions of Muslims are praying that more Americans get killed. Does that mean whoever prays harder will win?

Or that you and they are really heavily superstitious?

Prayer ain't gonna solve the Iraq problem. I don't know what will, but based on an analysis of where world religions have gotten us so far, I'd say prayer is not gonna be the solution.

MongoTheGeek
May 7, 2004, 06:44 AM
Why? Will that do something?

Millions of Muslims are praying that more Americans get killed. Does that mean whoever prays harder will win?

Or that you and they are really heavily superstitious?

Prayer ain't gonna solve the Iraq problem. I don't know what will, but based on an analysis of where world religions have gotten us so far, I'd say prayer is not gonna be the solution.

I can't imagine it hurting though. :)

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.

mactastic
May 7, 2004, 09:28 AM
The same racism that encourages Americans to believe they have a right to dominate the planet, prevents them from perceiving non-whites as human beings.

Ah yes. You speak of the White Man's Burden (http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/kipling/kipling.html) . Indeed a terrible attitude to be throwing around the world.

dragula53
May 7, 2004, 12:51 PM
My 9-year old has more compassion, and your thought is without substance. And remember that it wasn't indicative of a problem with the entire armed forces, rather, understanding that there are always bad apples, it just wouldn't have happened if Bush and his neo-cons had kept their hubris in check. Now we are stuck with a bigger problem than the prisoner scandal, and it's going to get a lot worse.
I always go back to my observation a few years ago: As a nation we are without vision. 87BN dollars could go a LONG way to dramatically reducing and even eliminating our need for their oil. So now Bush sets us up to fail, the bad-apples do what bad apples do, and 200 years of goodwill are nearly destroyed in one week.
Bush lied and should be censured
Cheny lied and should be censured
Rumsfeld is Rumsfeld, and he should be fired
Rice lied and should be supoened and sent to Leavenworth
Powell is spineless and should retire

I beg to differ. I remember being 18. And that was the sound of me being compassionate. I think it was over-stressed kids making a dumb mistake. Not malicious torture.

'nuff said.

Chip NoVaMac
May 7, 2004, 01:14 PM
I beg to differ. I remember being 18. And that was the sound of me being compassionate. I think it was over-stressed kids making a dumb mistake. Not malicious torture.

'nuff said.

Taking pictures of your crime is an 18 year olds excuse. There is not excuse for the humiliation or torture of your prisoners. These "soldiers" sure did not look "stressed" in the pictures.

raynegus
May 8, 2004, 05:31 AM
Can anyone provide a link to some of those pics? I havn't seen them yet and want to see what all the hoopla is about.

Squire
May 8, 2004, 06:55 AM
Can anyone provide a link to some of those pics? I havn't seen them yet and want to see what all the hoopla is about.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

The editor gives a well-deserved "graphic images" warning.

And if sodomizing detainees with a chemical light is not "malicious torture" I don't know what is.

Again, it's the whole group of them over there looking bad for, what, a dozen bad apples. Very, very bad news for a war that was having problems in the first place. (And to think Rumsfeld says the next batch of photos are worse.)

Squire

Rower_CPU
May 8, 2004, 10:35 AM
As noted several times above, a thread already exists for this topic in the political forum. Please continue discussion there.