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arn
Jul 1, 2002, 08:32 PM
This eWeek article (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,323833,00.asp) discusses Apple's acquisition of Emagic:

According to sources, Apple believes the acquisition of Emagic with fill a longstanding "gap" in its software portfolio, allowing it to bolster its professional-strength audio offerings for the Mac market, which accounts for about two-thirds of Emagic's business.

Also according to their sources, Logic 5 Titanium (OS X) will soon be released.

Inhale420
Jul 1, 2002, 08:47 PM
i'm just interested in what it's like to lose several thousand producers who use Emagic for the pc.... very interesting. will they 'switch' or will they use other software?

billiam0878
Jul 1, 2002, 09:08 PM
Though some might switch, I imagine most will find new software as its (most often) cheaper than buying a new computer.

Bill

3rdpath
Jul 1, 2002, 09:29 PM
i think many pc users will switch to mac.

its only going to be easier to run and you have to factor in the time to learn a new program if you want to stay with pc...who wants to do that...

its gonna be interesting, thats for sure.

Billicus
Jul 1, 2002, 09:48 PM
It makes me :) that Apple is aquiring all of these new companies. It makes me :D at the thought of all thouse Wintel users jumping boat just to stay with the software they currently use. All of Apple's aquisitions should hopefully point the way to a brighter tommorow, and close the door on the gloomy days of the past. Until then, Apples are still the best machines on the market.

etoiles
Jul 1, 2002, 10:18 PM
It is interesting to see how the 'weak' guy is always seen as being morally better than the 'strong', oppresive one...

I LAUGH at what is happening, I find it hillarious that wintel users get their pants cut off, but I know that these are pretty tough business practices that would create a scandal if Microsoft was behind them (ok, ok, they do it already, have been all the time).

What is Apple going to do once they reach a respectable market share (I am optimistic) ? It is like a church and state thing, I am not too thrilled about the idea to have hardware, OS and apps coming from the same company...to much control from Apple cannot be good, not even for the mac user.

blukens
Jul 1, 2002, 11:00 PM
Well, who remembers Bungie? Everyone I'm sure. They too made great cross platform software for a niche market, and then they got bought out by a bigger company. By Microsoft. And, of course, they'll never make a Mac game again.

My point here is that, for better or worse, what Apple is doing isn't too much different. While we were all pissed at the time, at this point - who really cares about Bungie? There was no big scandal, it was just business as usual: one company buys another company, takes what they want, and ditches the rest.

I expect things will turn out pretty much the same way here. Some people will switch to a competitor, some people might even instead switch to the Mac. In the end new and existing XBox... errr Mac users get a new and/or better program out of the deal.

badtz
Jul 1, 2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by etoiles

What is Apple going to do once they reach a respectable market share (I am optimistic) ? It is like a church and state thing, I am not too thrilled about the idea to have hardware, OS and apps coming from the same company...to much control from Apple cannot be good, not even for the mac user.

COMPLETELY agree!!!!!

menoinjun
Jul 2, 2002, 12:23 AM
I have a feeling that people will switch to mac because Logic is very hard to learn. The learning curve for it is very steep, and it comes with a couple hundred page instruction book with it. It's a great program, not extraordinarily user friendly.

-Pete

groovebuster
Jul 2, 2002, 12:29 AM
... are very pissed about that development. And believe me, they won't switch to the Mac after that. The feel kicked in the ass by Apple.

Before they'll switch to Mac the'll switch to Cubase SX, since they still can use their set-up almost unchanged!

I still doubt if that was a smart move by Apple!!!! :(

groovebuster

modul8tr
Jul 2, 2002, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by ptrauber
I have a feeling that people will switch to mac because Logic is very hard to learn. The learning curve for it is very steep, and it comes with a couple hundred page instruction book with it. It's a great program, not extraordinarily user friendly.

-Pete

Well the manual is actually 1000 pages. But in defense of Logic which has gotten a bad rap, it is because it gives you some many amazing ways to do one task. Logic allows you to tailer it to your own personal production flow. From your own customized key commands, to the screensets (brilliant), to the very elegant arrangement window.

Instead of saying HERE is this function and THIS is how you carry it, Logic says Here is this function HOW would you like to carry it out.

As far as learning how to set up your synths and record midi/audio tracks it is VERY straight forward. And the mixer is laid out like....a mixer. Not very confusing.

It's when you want to roll up your sleeves and dig in more, that you have to crack open the manual. But all of the amazing features you will continue to discover (the gift that keeps on giving) will save you SO much time.

Logic is a brilliant program and it's no surprise to me that it has become the top audio sequencer. Emagic kept busting out the innovations while Opcode (Studio Vision) got comforatable, and Steinberg remained lame.

That's why I'm Soooooo happy to see Emagic and Apple together. They were the first to jump on the velocity engine bandwagon, develop multiprocessor support, and then the great EMI 2|6 USB interface. Not to mention all of those great VST/TDM instruments and they REALLY know how to code. The program just won't crash. Apple and Emagic are innovators and belong together. I can't wait to see the fruits of this union.

tjwett
Jul 2, 2002, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by modul8tr


Well the manual is actually 1000 pages. But in defense of Logic which has gotten a bad rap, it is because it gives you some many amazing ways to do one task. Logic allows you to tailer it to your own personal production flow. From your own customized key commands, to the screensets (brilliant), to the very elegant arrangement window.

Instead of saying HERE is this function and THIS is how you carry it, Logic says Here is this function HOW would you like to carry it out.

As far as learning how to set up your synths and record midi/audio tracks it is VERY straight forward. And the mixer is laid out like....a mixer. Not very confusing.

It's when you want to roll up your sleeves and dig in more, that you have to crack open the manual. But all of the amazing features you will continue to discover (the gift that keeps on giving) will save you SO much time.

Logic is a brilliant program and it's no surprise to me that it has become the top audio sequencer. Emagic kept busting out the innovations while Opcode (Studio Vision) got comforatable, and Steinberg remained lame.

That's why I'm Soooooo happy to see Emagic and Apple together. They were the first to jump on the velocity engine bandwagon, develop multiprocessor support, and then the great EMI 2|6 USB interface. Not to mention all of those great VST/TDM instruments and they REALLY know how to code. The program just won't crash. Apple and Emagic are innovators and belong together. I can't wait to see the fruits of this union.

hey, you sound like a fellow Logic user. there is a great tutorial in the current Computer Music on setting up Logic Environments for your hardware synths. They use the Korg MS2000 but it's relevant for any i suppose. i just finished reading it and it was very useful. creating Environments was always something i've had trouble with. all the cotroller data...anyway just a heads up.

evanmarx
Jul 2, 2002, 02:25 AM
hmmm .... if apple - who now owns emagic - gives every pc-logic user an option to crossgrade logic from pc to mac (when purchasing mac hardware ...) for FREE ... then i could think it could work ... at least for thoese pc users that were already thinking maybe about trying out macintosh ...

the crossgrade should of course include all plugins or thirdparty sw sold by emagic .

i.e. you have a valid pc license? want to buy a new imac? we give you a full logic mac license ...

even if logic has a steep learning curve ...it's even more of a hassle to rebuild all of your midi-setup on a different hardware-platform

i' ve been switching at least 4 times between logic (creator) and cubase in the last 15 years (starting on the atari) ... when every time one or the other software took a technological leap ....

modul8tr
Jul 2, 2002, 03:36 AM
Thanks for the heads up. Now if only the American tech magazines could dedicate space on a regular basis to these programs:rolleyes:

I actually successfully set up an Environment once, then broke it some how. It is a really complex (and that's a good thing), powerful feature. I'd like to learn the practical side, as I just don't have the time to do all the insane creative environments yet. But there are some cool people out there dedicating a lot of time to doing that for people like me.

As I'm always using Pro Tools in combo with Logic, I'm still in OMS hell. I guess it is fairly stable and transparent, but when it's a hassle it is REALLY a hassle. Those really fun OMS files that corrupt mysteriously every so often or change settings.:rolleyes:

I really hope the whole Jaguar OSX shift will phase out OMS for good. Opcode doesn't even exist any more right? Why is Digidesign holding on? Everyone hates it. I can't imagine OMS still being required when Pro Tools OSX rolls out this Fall (the gods willing).

Thanks again for the Computer Music tid bit.

modul8tr
Jul 2, 2002, 03:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by evanmarx
[B]hmmm .... if apple - who now owns emagic - gives every pc-logic user an option to crossgrade logic from pc to mac (when purchasing mac hardware ...) for FREE ... then i could think it could work ... at least for thoese pc users that were already thinking maybe about trying out macintosh ...

Interesting. We'll see. I must say that when I crossgraded to Logic Platinum originally, I don't know if I can go into the details, but lets just say the Emagic people made me a generous offer I could not refuse. That was back when they were making the shift to THE major player in their field.

They'll do something cool.

groovebuster
Jul 2, 2002, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by evanmarx
hmmm .... if apple - who now owns emagic - gives every pc-logic user an option to crossgrade logic from pc to mac (when purchasing mac hardware ...) for FREE ... then i could think it could work ... at least for thoese pc users that were already thinking maybe about trying out macintosh ...

the crossgrade should of course include all plugins or thirdparty sw sold by emagic .

i.e. you have a valid pc license? want to buy a new imac? we give you a full logic mac license ...

even if logic has a steep learning curve ...it's even more of a hassle to rebuild all of your midi-setup on a different hardware-platform

i' ve been switching at least 4 times between logic (creator) and cubase in the last 15 years (starting on the atari) ... when every time one or the other software took a technological leap ....

But still that would be a bad deal for the PC user. A Mac costs a few thousand bucks. This is still extra money he has to spend just to get a working set-up again that does exactly the same as before. Further there is a lot software/plug-ins that are not from emagic and that has to be purchased again, in some cases it maybe even doesn't exist for the Mac.

To take really advantage of Logics features you need a performant machine, an iMac is definetaly not enough for pro studios in most cases. All the producers I know have big G4 towers in ther studios. And to be true, they still don't have a chance to compete with a good and fast Windows setup performance-wise. I had the chance once to compare Mac <-> PC in the studio. The PC had a lot more muscles than the Mac and the times when a set-up with Windows gave you several heart-attacks and sleepless nights with loads of coffee are over since a while. That's a myth that we Mac users still want to believe.

And you are right about the rebuild of a working set-up. It is not just installing the software... it's the experience and optimizing of a long time.

35% of all Logic installations are Windows-based. I think it is simply stupid to push them away like this. Those guys are less likely than before now to switch to a Mac, because they feel betrayed by Apple. There is no economical reason to not develop Windows software anymore, it is just marketing.

Don't forget how we Apple users were whining sometimes when a company didn't go on developping a version for the Mac because the market share of MacOS was too little. But at least that still made sense in an economical way. And now Apple is doing the same with the other platform, but only for strenghtening the own platform on the back of approximately 60,000 users that helped emagic to stay healthy as a software company the last few years.

Actually I am not very impressed by Apple's latest moves. There could have been still the possibility to take advantage of all the superior technology under the hood of MacOS X and to convert people that way, by showing how easy it is to do certain things on a Mac compared to PC. Just like "sorry, but that functionality is just available on the Mac, because..."!

Apple should provide performant gear, then the users will come by themselves. But the current tactic reminds me of getting unfair after I found out that I don't have the muscles to win a fight against someone who's stronger than me.

groovebuster

barkmonster
Jul 2, 2002, 06:09 AM
A PC crossgrade could work out fine for people.

If apple made it into a bundled upgrade.

I'm getting these prices from the applestore and digital village in the UK.

let's say it's early next year, logic 5.5 or 6 is due to come out and the PC people using logic 5 are getting really annoyed.

Right now Logic platinum is 579.99 and a brand new G4 is 1350.

Offer them a crossgrade package with a G4, they send their logic install CDs to apple to qualify for the discount then they get this.

G4, standard config, Logic 5.5 or 6 crossgrade: 1,000

That would amount to the cost of a G4 - the cost of logic platinum with a 200 charge for the upgrade.

The PC users would be out of pocket a little but get the latest logic version running on the latest apple hardware as one off offer. Apple wouldn't loose too much on the deal because they've already gained from the original sale of logic and gained another mac user.

By then macs will be using DDR at least so the PC owner can take the hard drive out of their PC and use for an audio drive and use their PCs RAM to boost the mac up, even use their PCs monitor.

It's a bit unrealistic I know but it could be possible as a limited offer to only logic users, having to send you're original PC CDs to apple would stop people from abusing the offer aswell.

Just a thought.

As for the mac and logic.

let's have some RCA audio inputs on the new mac range, you don't need any 3rd party hardware to edit video on a mac, You'll already have a digital video camera already if you want to do stuff like that. I think we should have decent audio on the mac, 48Khz 24bit audio in/out and a seperate circuit for a heaphone socket on the front of the towers, maybe even offering an apple midi interface as a BTO option to go in the modem slot. It's no digital hub if there's no way of capturing audio which is still 99% analogue in nature.

pianojoe
Jul 2, 2002, 06:54 AM
I'm sure that Apple will offer a free crossgrade. It's such an easy way to enlarge the installed base of the software AND sell a Macintosh computer at the same time.

As a pro recording studio owner I can say that the cost of the computer hardware is neglectable. You do spend money on

- software & software synths & effects
- downtime.

So, if I had Logic on a PC, I'd rather get me a Mac instead of purchasing and learning DP or Cubase (and never be able to open my old productions again).

To barkmonster: You're absolutely right: Now's the time to bring back a decent audio in!

groovebuster
Jul 2, 2002, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by pianojoe

- software & software synths & effects
- downtime.


That was exactly my point! The whole software package has to be purchased again for the Mac.

Changing the platform is causing a lot of downtime, because it takes a while before you get everything running again perfectly. Not to mention the time it takes you to get used to the new environment.

The purchase of the machine is on top of that.

It's summing up!

groovebuster

P.S.: I don't own a studio (except a litte one at home for demos and pre-productions), but I used to work a lot in some. Some of my best friends are producers with their own studios. So I guess I also know some things about the matter.

groovebuster
Jul 2, 2002, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by pianojoe
So, if I had Logic on a PC, I'd rather get me a Mac instead of purchasing and learning DP or Cubase (and never be able to open my old productions again).

Why should you? It's not that Logic stops running in September. You keep in on your HD to be able to work with old projects, that's all. If you need some stuff from an old production, there are ways to get the stuff into Cubase or other Tools.

We had the situation not only once that two studios had two different tools they worked with, but they had to collaborate. Now, how did you do that in the past? Or do you just work with people that have exactly the same set-up as you?

groovebuster

drastik
Jul 2, 2002, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by etoiles
It is interesting to see how the 'weak' guy is always seen as being morally better than the 'strong', oppresive one...

I LAUGH at what is happening, I find it hillarious that wintel users get their pants cut off, but I know that these are pretty tough business practices that would create a scandal if Microsoft was behind them (ok, ok, they do it already, have been all the time).

What is Apple going to do once they reach a respectable market share (I am optimistic) ? It is like a church and state thing, I am not too thrilled about the idea to have hardware, OS and apps coming from the same company...to much control from Apple cannot be good, not even for the mac user.

Arrgghh!
Yes Apple is buying a lot of companies right niow, trying to close the holes. This is a great idea for apple because the market's in the crapper and they can pick this stuff up for cheaper than normal.

AS to M$ compasisions and justuce concerns, this is a completely different situation. M$ uses their OS to make an inhospitiable environment for competeing software in order to drive out that software. Apple not making a PC version of software is the same as any company not making a Mac version, or a PS/2 version for that matter. If any company in the world wants to code a program for Mac OS, Apple is thrilled, and welcomes the competition, they don't try to shut everyone out by bulling manufacturers ( actually themselves ) into placing only Apple Apps on the boxes.

And that, I think is where Apple is going right now. By picking up all these companies, along with releasing great stuff like FCP, Apple is creating a market that hasn't really existed for awhile, High End Pro Software for the Mac. Far from M$, Apple isn't blocking development by others, they are seeding the top secret new OS to developers and saying run with it. Apple is showing the other companies that a market exists for this stuff. Once everyone realizes there's money there, they'll come.:D

jelloshotsrule
Jul 2, 2002, 09:42 AM
as i'm not into pro audio much i haven't read every article and everything about the sale... but i don't think this one was mentioned... not necessarily anything groundbreaking, but i figured i may as well share

here's (http://www.digitalprosound.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2002/07_jul/news/apple_emagic.htm) the link

heinzruediger
Jul 2, 2002, 10:02 AM
hey,

after the Notator Version for the Atari ST ages ago, the company moved on to Emagic and created Logic and Logic Audio only for the Mac. No Windows version for a long time, because of the bad hardware. Of course they came out with a windows version after they created usable soundcards for the pcs, but everyone who earned money using Logic Audio was a Macuser ! All in all it's again Mac only now - where's the problem ?

And I love it, many PC Users were shouting at me, because "they have a much more better PC for running Logic" than me with my trashy Mac. HAHA that's so good !

Marianco
Jul 2, 2002, 12:19 PM
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE Apple's acquisitions!!!!

It is about survival.

There are many other music software developers on the PC Side. No one is stopping them from developing for the PC. Neither is Apple stopping Mac development for companies wanting to create software for the Mac.

However, by insuring the presence of a best of breed music software company developing for the Mac, Apple maintains the existance of the Mac music market. This gives incentive for other developers to continue creating music software for the Mac.

Apple also has a new revenue stream. Apple can also now create a new niche in the consumer market. Wouldn't it be nice to have an iMovie version of Logic for neophytes and education use? Wouldn't this be a great extension of the digital hub?

In this economic downturn, I applaud Apple's acquisitions and encourage more.

Inhale420
Jul 2, 2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
... are very pissed about that development. And believe me, they won't switch to the Mac after that. The feel kicked in the ass by Apple.

Before they'll switch to Mac the'll switch to Cubase SX, since they still can use their set-up almost unchanged!

I still doubt if that was a smart move by Apple!!!! :(

groovebuster

taken personally, i think it's a crappy move by apple, but as far as business is concerned, i really do think this will bring in more apple customers. even with all the backlash.

Q-bert
Jul 2, 2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
Actually I am not very impressed by Apple's latest moves. There could have been still the possibility to take advantage of all the superior technology under the hood of MacOS X and to convert people that way, by showing how easy it is to do certain things on a Mac compared to PC. Just like "sorry, but that functionality is just available on the Mac, because..."!

Apple should provide performant gear, then the users will come by themselves. But the current tactic reminds me of getting unfair after I found out that I don't have the muscles to win a fight against someone who's stronger than me.
I think it's about time Apple rolled up their sleeves and started playing this game for real. This whole "let's just build something cool and wait for people to come to us" thing has been Apple's standard operating procedure for years, and look at where they are? 5% market share, and shrinking, depending on whose numbers you read. While all of Apple's competitors are out there COMPETING and doing it hard, Apple can't simply sit back and hope that all will be well when people get around to checking out Macintosh at their leisure and somehow "see the light" due to overwhelming technical superiority.

The history of technology is littered with the bodies of companies who assumed that people would just show up at their doorstop just because they had the better technology. To think otherwise is unfortunately naive - it would be wonderful if things worked that way, but in truth, they don't. The old expression "build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door" is totally false in today's marketing-driven world. Now, you not only have to build the better mousetrap, but you also have to almost force people to take a look at your new creation, otherwise they'll say "I already have a mousetrap, I don't need to look at that."

That's why doing something like this, even if it gets Windows users really mad, is okay in my book. It doesn't eliminate competition like M$ does when they buy or try to buy companies (i.e. they tried to buy and eliminate Quicken so that Money would rule the market), since there are still plenty of pro-level sequencers on Windows to choose from, but it does expand Apple's reach in a particular area, and that's what business is all about.

If Apple isn't willing to be a business and operate like one, then we're all in trouble as "Mac faithful". The recent acquisitions seem to me to be a good sign that Apple is willing to fight and be proactive, not just sit around and hope for good things to happen to them. It's not that Apple doesn't have the muscle to fight - it's that they've never used their true muscle before, and now they're actually fighting instead of pleading with the other guy to not hit them in the face while getting hit repeatedly in the face :D

Wry Cooter
Jul 2, 2002, 06:16 PM
Usually, cutting off support for one version only works when you already have majority share of the market. But I'm not taking this announcement with too much of a feeling that it is completely a lousy idea. I don't think it may have been that wise for them to announce dropping support of the Windows version immediately upon acquisition, if the intent was a hope for a switch.

I think it could still come out as a positive for Apple and eMagic (for whom it already is a plus) AND the customers if handled wisely from this point out. Make an iApp, and keep a pro version of logic. Reduce the price of entry for an interested yet unserved market. There is usually always growth if you take a segment that has in the past been consistantly price gouged as a prosumer/corporate customer and bring that into the gap in the middle.

It helps Apple and eMagic and the customer by keeping a professional level application always available to work with the latest OS tweaks, which merely doesn't happen as quickly otherwise. Apple nearly lost the music/midi/digital audio niche completely in the Amelio/Jobs switchover, this is one way to make sure that the niche is not ignored any longer. It will probably even be good news for Steinberg and Digidesign for the same reason... they will know that apple will keep proper attention on their midi/audio layer now that they have a more personal stake in the segment.

touchsky
Jul 2, 2002, 08:07 PM
This is a business move plain and simple. I have been Music and Studio consultant for years and have seen the entire growth of music software industry. First thing is that all the software manufactures have there +'s and -'s whether it is cubase MOTU or any of the others but over all Logic is the most powerful and creative. Yes it has a step learning curve but that is with Logic Platinum, there other versions, which are much easier to use minus the muscle. The fact that you don't need to run FreeMidi or OMS to have your midi gear work is a blessing sent from God. The little things like unlimited none destructive Quantizing which they have always had. Yes always! Now the other companies have it but it was logic that was the innovator and still is. Don't get me wrong some of the other products have some cool features but not over all. As far as running Logic on the PC or Mac, take the Mac anytime although I make more $ when someone wants it on the PC because getting it running and keeping it running (just like everything else PC) keeps people like me and every other IT tech coming back for more. I work out of NYC and to be honest the majority of the main players in the music industry that are using Logic are using it on a Mac mainly because they're also using ProTools hardware. Macs have always been number one in the Music/Media industry where as Windows is number one in the Business industry it only makes since that Apple would want to cement themselves into that market like Microsoft has done in the Business field. Ever wonder why Microsoft doesn't have Microsoft Project available in Office for the Mac but does for Windows. Because it is one of the most popular serious business apps for Windows. You can go on and on, back and fourth forever on this. I am sure some users will switch to another software then buy a Mac but the few serious players in the industry using a PC will switch to the Mac. The files and environments are interchangeable between the PC and Mac, so if they have a large catalog of material in logic it only makes sense to switch. Most studio owners and producers are about the Music and making money. They don't want to learn a new program or get caught up in the petty I hate Mac or I hate PC game, they just want to make a living.
Okay this is way too much rambling on and on..

Freakish Mac
Jul 2, 2002, 08:26 PM
With this aquisition, aren't the top three midi/audio production packages now almost exclusively the domain of the Mac?
With ProTools sitting at the top (I know there is an NT version, but I haven't heard great things about it), and Digital Performer (Mac only- can be used as a ProTools front-end) and Logic (soon Mac only- can be used as a ProTools front-end) sitting right below?
I've used both Cubase and Cakewalk, and don't consider them on the same level with the above mentioned programs. Cubase on Mac seems barely tolerable, and extremely unstable on PC, Cakewalk is coming along in features, but still doesn't feel proffesional to me.
-Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like Apple is poised to pretty much own the proffessional and semi-proffesional digital audio market.
-Mac Freak-:D

tjwett
Jul 2, 2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Freakish Mac
With this aquisition, aren't the top three midi/audio production packages now almost exclusively the domain of the Mac?
With ProTools sitting at the top (I know there is an NT version, but I haven't heard great things about it), and Digital Performer (Mac only- can be used as a ProTools front-end) and Logic (soon Mac only- can be used as a ProTools front-end) sitting right below?
I've used both Cubase and Cakewalk, and don't consider them on the same level with the above mentioned programs. Cubase on Mac seems barely tolerable, and extremely unstable on PC, Cakewalk is coming along in features, but still doesn't feel proffesional to me.
-Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like Apple is poised to pretty much own the proffessional and semi-proffesional digital audio market.
-Mac Freak-:D

i agree. i'm a Logic user but have tried to get into Cubase but i just didt't like the feel. it is unstable and feels very number-based. DP is nice on the Mac and getting your studio setup is fast and it has the best ReWire implimentation of all of them. but they have been kind of slacking while Logic keeps making strides with the features and stability. Cakewalk Sonar actually has some cool features but it's actually Windows only. see, they have one too ; ) ProTools is ProTools. it's nice to see Apple try to corner this market because musicians have been a very loyal(and patient) customer to Apple and the Mac. Macs are the industry standard and hopefully they will continue to be. now give us 10.2 dammit!

transistor
Jul 2, 2002, 11:31 PM
To tell you the truth, I have mixed feelings about this.
My first Mac sequencer software was Opcode's Vision 1.3 or something like that (yes, over 10 years). It ran on a Mac SE. It was HEAVEN compared to the Atari's sequencer (can't remember it's name right now).
When Opcode was aquired, they just let it die... yes, they just let it die, not another update, upgrade, nothing.
Then I tried all audio-sequencers out there,and I mean all!
Finally, I chose Logic Platinum because of it's power, it's simplicity (this might sound strange to you, but I got the hang of it quite fast), it's nice interface and the fact that it almost never crashes.
So, when I hear someone has aquired something I tend to get a liiiitle nervous, although I keep saying to myself: "Hey! it's Apple! it's Steve! you can't go wrong with them!" and then a little voice, deep inside me says: "can you?".
I try to keep an optimistic view and say I hope it's for the best!
As for PC compatibility... I don't care and I don't think so... I mean, have you seen a Final Cut Pro for PC? or iTunes for that matter?
One thing for sure is that I can't wait for Logic Platinum in OS X!!

Marvenp
Jul 3, 2002, 12:27 AM
It would seem as though Apple has finally grown up and learned it's lesson from being slaughtered all these years by M$. The moves Apple has been making recently is just smart business plain and simple. The Mac OS can't survive if developers aren't making top level applications for it. This way Apple insures that there will always be great apps for the Mac platform; a sort of built-in quality control. I applaud Apples latest acquisions and am early to see the high quality apps we as Mac users will get because of them. Let's not forget that Apple has given us some the best damn apps out there for FREE!

andrewlandry
Jul 3, 2002, 12:00 PM
Just wanted to second that. I expect great things from Apple acquiring E Magic. All of the iApps have incredible user interfaces and functionality and don't even get me started about Final Cut Pro. I think if Apple puts enough development into it (which they seem to have the dough and the right people) Logic could become a superapp like Final Cut and make a Mac a necessity for anyone doing pro audio as it already is for most people doing DV editing.

nuckinfutz
Jul 3, 2002, 02:19 PM
How could you NOT like this!

Apple's acquisitions of late have been great.

Final Cut Pro- Homerun

Astarte- DVD Studio Pro is among the DVD Prod leaders

Spruce- Still unknown what tech comes from this

Digital Film- Apple Cinema Tools for FILM.

Zyante- Firewire..this is a must.

Prismo Graphics- India Titler is awesome! This is great

Shake/Rayz- Compositing Conquerors. Man this is sweet

Emagic- Top Sequencer to show what Core Audio can REALLY do.

Only one tool remains....3D. I predict Apple purchase Maxon Computer and gets Cinema4d. You heard it here first.

Wry Cooter
Jul 3, 2002, 04:12 PM
This addresses the just mentioned comments about video and 3d... Don't underestimate the stubborness of the PC side on these niches regardless of how much it seems a natural for the Mac. Locally, 3D animation is taught on PC networks, because that's where the good CAD tends to be, and the folks involved are either going to be going on to AutoCAD jobs, or perhaps game development.

I overheard a wedding photographer talking about possibly having to start making DVDs for customers instead of VHS copies, and was asking where she could have that done. I said "Buy a Macintosh and it will be a snap..." You should have seen the look she gave me. I suppose I could have anticipated this and offered to do it for her myself, then shown her how easy it was.

Last time I went to a Cubase demo, the room was full of people with AMDs eager to pay and play. And a couple of people who actually knew how to record, asking if the G4, new at the time, was going to be supported. The cool free plug ins at least, were not. There -IS- some cool audio product on the PC side, and the Mac has been hurt during the software and hardware shift. What is available on the mac, isn't hitting the sweetspot of cool powerful app between 100 and 500 dollars- PC owns that niche- and its big.

Acquisition of Emagic is a step in the right direction... Apple can keep something sweet and workable in in the right market position at all times now. It may not have been the best idea for them to mention dropping support to the PC customers right off, but it does give them a warning... Keep your Logic files and buy a Mac? Or switch to Cakewalk, or something decent like Cubase, and learn something new. There still may be Plug-Ins to rebuy or wait for further development.

I've expressed my feeling on the importance of Apple making an iApp from this acquisition before. Free iApps leading up to Smooth Professional Solutions.

fallt
Jul 4, 2002, 02:27 AM
Dear All,

I've been a long-time Cubase user, but this is great news. I for one would definitely switch to Logic once Apple had integrated it with their hardware and added the usual Apple interface flair.

Anyone who's ever struggled with software/extension conflicts - which have a habit of cropping up in audio applications - will appreciate the benefits of having the hardware and software developed by the same company.

While we're on the topic of audio though, anyone who's seriously interested in audio should check out Ableton's excellent Live. You can pick up a demo - free - of it here:

http://www.ableton.com/

This is quite simply the most intuitive program for workign with audio that I've come across. Beat matching is a snap with it making it a possible contender for the basis of a DJ set up. Try it, you won't regret it (BTW, I don't work for Ableton, I run Fallt - http://www.fallt.com - an independent record label).

Best,

Christopher

Geert
Jul 4, 2002, 06:57 AM
So we'll see some pro-features included into iTunes.
Yes, sounds great.

iapple
Jul 4, 2002, 08:12 AM
This was posted on Emagic's website today. In case you hadn't seen it:


"Emagic offers migration plan to existing Logic 5 Windows users
July 4th 2002

Emagic has always enjoyed a very close relationship with you, the users of our products - regardless of the platform you chose to use. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for your continued loyalty. Together, we have developed Logic into one of the most powerful systems of its kind, and now that Emagic is a member of the Apple family, Logic will become even better. Obviously, the platform does matter now and we would like to cordially invite all Logic Windows users to join us on the Macintosh.

It goes without saying that we will continue to service and support all Logic Windows owners according to the standard product warranty policies beyond September, 30th 2002. The Logic 5.2 subrelease that we recently announced is a perfect example of our commitment to servicing every existing user.

In addition, for those users of Logic 5 on Windows who wish to enjoy all the current and future benefits of Logic running on the Mac platform, Emagic will make a free cross-platform crossgrade available from August 1st. This free crossgrade offer will allow you to keep and use your current Logic 5 Windows version - Logic Audio 5, Gold 5 or Platinum 5 - on Macintosh as well. The offer will be available until December 31st 2002 for every registered Logic 5 Windows user, and details about how to apply will be released shortly. We would certainly be delighted to have you join us on the Mac.

Stay tuned as the next chapter in the success story of Emagic unfolds. This will be a very exciting one."

So, it seems, any Windows users that want to go out and buy a Mac to run Logic, they will all get a copy of Logic for mac. This is what some people in this thread were talking about I think...

I think it will work out.. and btw, they're also rolling out a 5.2 update for all Logic users.

tjwett
Jul 4, 2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by fallt
Dear All,

I've been a long-time Cubase user, but this is great news. I for one would definitely switch to Logic once Apple had integrated it with their hardware and added the usual Apple interface flair.

Anyone who's ever struggled with software/extension conflicts - which have a habit of cropping up in audio applications - will appreciate the benefits of having the hardware and software developed by the same company.

While we're on the topic of audio though, anyone who's seriously interested in audio should check out Ableton's excellent Live. You can pick up a demo - free - of it here:

http://www.ableton.com/

This is quite simply the most intuitive program for workign with audio that I've come across. Beat matching is a snap with it making it a possible contender for the basis of a DJ set up. Try it, you won't regret it (BTW, I don't work for Ableton, I run Fallt - http://www.fallt.com - an independent record label).

Best,

Christopher

i personally hope they don't change the Logic interface. Logic actually had a very aqua-like interface before OSX even existed. and yeah, Ableton live is great. i use it for all my live shows. Live, combined with Reason is THE ultimate performance tool. and now they are both OSX ready. i'm gonna go check out your site right now. cheers.

tjwett
Jul 5, 2002, 01:40 AM
as predicted, many Windows Logic users are thoroughly pissed and are talking of switching to Steinberg's Cubase SX. to sweeten the deal Steinberg is offering all registered Logic users the opportunity to crossgrade to Cubase for the silly price of $299, which is a great deal. even better is that the deal includes owners of ALL versions of Logic(Silver, Gold, Platinum) which means even someone using Logic Silver($299) which is the pro low-end version can switch to the high-end version of Cubase for half price. lets see, double the features, half price, no new OS to learn plus they actually get to keep their computer. i think there still may be some converts but ALOT more people would rather spend $299 and a little time learning a new app than dropping $3000 into a new machine and an unfamiliar OS. i wish there was a place for the public to see sales stats. i'm real curious to see what happens with this.

Eliot
Jul 5, 2002, 07:59 AM
I wonder why the figure of $3000 comes up........we're getting to the point where any non-loony Logic or Cubase user can run their studio on the lowest machine in the range, either Mac or PC, and get more stuff going on than Roy Thomas Baker ever could. So what about keeping a sequencer/audio sware you know inside-out and (former PC owners on their next replacement machine) buying a quality preowned Mac , or a new eMac.
Of course, this depends on folks realising that even the latest $1k but 4GHz PC ain't gonna polish a t**d, so maybe there is no hope.
Whatever, I think there'll be a seismic shift in the audio, film and broadcast landscape over the next 18 months, so anyone not thinking Mac over the next 18 months is going to be left feeling like the second-class citizen. Logic users who don't migrate from PCs may wish they had done so.

nuckinfutz
Jul 5, 2002, 08:09 AM
Is offering a free upgrade to the Mac version so the only thing PC users need to do is

1. Purchase a Mac

2. Replace desired plug ins.


I tend to believe that learning the OS is not the hardest part as most Pro users are in Logic Audio most of the time meaning interaction with the OS is more minimal than in most general uses.

From what I keep reading. Even the SX version of Cubase pales in comparison to the features of Logic Audio...so I'm not sure everyone will be happy.

groovebuster
Jul 5, 2002, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Eliot

Whatever, I think there'll be a seismic shift in the audio, film and broadcast landscape over the next 18 months, so anyone not thinking Mac over the next 18 months is going to be left feeling like the second-class citizen. Logic users who don't migrate from PCs may wish they had done so.

I wouldn't be too sure about it. Apple needs to provide the gear for a reasonable price to do so. Of course they can make quite some money to provide big studios with high-end equipment, but they also need performant stuff for a reasonable price in semi-pro business. If they can't do that the platform is dead faster than we ever would have expected.

So far the software isn't too bad. FCP rocks and I am sure that Logic will be in good hands. But the competetive hardware is missing! As long as there won't be machines that really smoke the Windows PCs and are affordable not only for big studios, but also for home-users and semi-profssional people, I don't expect the seismic shift you are talking about. But maybe that shift is into the other direction then... Something I really don't hope

groovebuster

Eliot
Jul 5, 2002, 08:40 AM
I hear you.
But to save myself from too much one finger typing, look at what I said in the General Discussions threads further down the site in Poll:audio people for a bit more of my thoughts on this. Apologies for no link, I'm only a humble muso with limited computer skills.