Which "Budget" DSLR - Nikon D60 or Canon XS?

[dmk1974]

I'm looking for a "budget DSLR for my Dad. After researching, the two I am down to are the Nikon D60 and the Canon XS. I know they aren't top of the line by any means, but for him going from a crappy (in my opinion crappy that is) Olympus P&S camera, one of these will be great.

I'm looking at getting them as refurbs, probably from Adorama since I had a good experience previously getting a refurbed XSi from them. Each would be bought with the starter 18-55 mm VR/IS lens.

Nikon D60 - $459.90
http://www.adorama.com/INKD60R.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html

Canon XS - $469.95
http://www.adorama.com/ICADRXSKBR.html?searchinfo=canon+xs+refurbished

Or if there is a better suggestion out there with a similar budget, please let me know. Thanks!

[gkarris]

Go for the "crappy" Olympus dSLR... :eek:

LOL... :)

[dmk1974]

Go for the "crappy" Olympus dSLR... :eek:

LOL... :)

Ha ha ha...I'm not saying Olympus is crappy, just his digital P&S camera. I swear I've seen nothing but poor quality photos out of that thing, even when I tested a couple.

For DSLR especially, from what I have read and see photo samples of, Canon and Nikon are the kings.

[gkarris]

Ha ha ha...I'm not saying Olympus is crappy, just his digital P&S camera. I swear I've seen nothing but poor quality photos out of that thing, even when I tested a couple.

For DSLR especially, from what I have read and see photo samples of, Canon and Nikon are the kings.

all in fun...

btw - see my sig...

[iShater]

If you are on a budget, get a D40 or the equivalent Canon to get started with. Any money saved can go towards better lenses, filters, etc.

That's what I did. :o

[TheReef]

For DSLR especially, from what I have read and see photo samples of, Canon and Nikon are the kings.

Sure, those brands offer very expensive high end models which I am sure are very good…

But for entry level you can't beat the value the Pentax K200D. It's photos are just as good and has better features for the price.

P.s do a search, this topic comes up every few days :)

[TheStrudel]

My thoughts (Assuming you're not already invested in lenses):

Olympus is to be avoided, not because their hardware is bad, but because they unwisely opted for the Four Thirds system, and I think it's better to use the more standard (photographically) 3:2 ratio found in the competitors. Pentax usually represents excellent value for money and has in-body optical image stabilization, which is nice for shooting on a budget. But Canon and Nikon have the advantage of many, many lenses on the market and therefore a large selection of used lenses bought extremely cost-effectively.

How to choose between them? Try them out at a camera shop. I advise you to make the choice on which you like better personally, ergonomically, or by image quality as you determine in person.

[dmk1974]

Wow, so far the Canon is trouncing the Nikon.

For those who vote "other", which make/model is your recommendation?

[NEiMac]

I didn't vote cause I say go with the D40, its a very good camera and cheaper then the D60. But really you should go handle them and see which one you prefer, both have a great lens lineup so I wouldn't worry much there.

[iShater]

I didn't vote cause I say go with the D40, its a very good camera and cheaper then the D60. But really you should go handle them and see which one you prefer, both have a great lens lineup so I wouldn't worry much there.

That is what I did. After trying them at Wolf camera, the feel of the D40/60 was more comfortable for me.

[iTiki]

D40 :d

[dmk1974]

I've seen some support here for the D40. Why though? It's only 6MP instead of 10. And doesn't it have a few other slight shortcomings compared to the D60? D40 is cheaper though which is a definite plus.

[iTiki]

I've seen some support here for the D40. Why though? It's only 6MP instead of 10. And doesn't it have a few other slight shortcomings compared to the D60? D40 is cheaper though which is a definite plus.

Check out Ken Rockwell's site www.kenrockwell.com. Some people hate the guy, some love him. Makes for an interesting read either way. I started with a D40 based on his recommendation and it worked out very well for me. Others on here will tell you he is full of B.S. I would suggest you read several of his articles and make up your own mind. He likes both Canon and Nikon, so I don't feel he is completely biased. He does have an article on MP, too.

[Elbert C]

Sure, those brands offer very expensive high end models which I am sure are very good…

But for entry level you can't beat the value the Pentax K200D. It's photos are just as good and has better features for the price.

P.s do a search, this topic comes up every few days :)

+1

[iShater]

I've seen some support here for the D40. Why though? It's only 6MP instead of 10. And doesn't it have a few other slight shortcomings compared to the D60? D40 is cheaper though which is a definite plus.

The MPs at that level don't matter as much, it depends what printing media and what type of cropping you want to do. Some sites even prefer the D40 over the D60 for the ISO sensitivity, flash sync, and some other stuff.

For me it was bang for the buck. I got the stock 18-55mm lens, and I plan to use the $200 I saved on the D60 to get a decent 70-300mm lens.

The changes between these cameras are evolutionary, not revolutionary. The differences are not that big.

[paintball312]

Here's why I'd pick an XS over a D60

-XS has 7 focus points w/ a center cross type over the D60's 3
-D60 has no focus motor, you lose out of AF with many great lenses
-XS has a true curtain shutter, and less shutter lag
-D60 lacks AEB and bhite balance bracketing
-XS has live view
-XS has better high ISO performance (debatable I suppose, but the D60 does seem to have better low ISO's which is odd)

That's just my opinion though. I'm sure you'd be happy with whichever you get. I feel canon has more to offer in the glass category, especially against the D40/x and D60 though, and that's why I test most to recommend entry level canons over entry level nikons.

[dmk1974]

Here's why I'd pick an XS over a D60

-XS has 7 focus points w/ a center cross type over the D60's 3
-D60 has no focus motor, you lose out of AF with many great lenses
-XS has a true curtain shutter, and less shutter lag
-D60 lacks AEB and bhite balance bracketing
-XS has live view
-XS has better high ISO performance (debatable I suppose, but the D60 does seem to have better low ISO's which is odd)

That's just my opinion though. I'm sure you'd be happy with whichever you get. I feel canon has more to offer in the glass category, especially against the D40/x and D60 though, and that's why I test most to recommend entry level canons over entry level nikons.

- The number of AF pts does seems significant. But in practicality, does it really matter that much?
- Since this would be a starter kit, does it really matter about the lenses being limited to AF-S on the Nikon?
- Live view I had on my own XSi and I didn't like it at all.

[iShater]

- The number of AF pts does seems significant. But in practicality, does it really matter that much?
- Since this would be a starter kit, does it really matter about the lenses being limited to AF-S on the Nikon?
- Live view I had on my own XSi and I didn't like it at all.

Your first point is what I would look at too. The other two didn't persuade me to go with the Canon, not because I didn't like the tech of the Canons, but because of the feel in my hand. Try both at a store and see which one is comfortable for you to use.

[paintball312]

To some, the AF points may matter. To me, it's not really the number of points, the fact that the center point, which I'm sure would be most used, is cross-type for lenses F/5.6 and faster.

To me, the having to stick with AF-I/S lenses is a big deal. Off the top of my head, some great lenses you lose AF with include:
Nikon 50mm f/1.8
Nikon 85mm f/1.8
Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye
Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8
Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8

Live view is a preference thing. I know myself, I never use it, some like it and it can come in handy for fine tuning focus when shooting landscapes.

[Mr. G4]

My thoughts (Assuming you're not already invested in lenses):

Olympus is to be avoided, not because their hardware is bad, but because they unwisely opted for the Four Thirds system, and I think it's better to use the more standard (photographically) 3:2 ratio found in the competitors. Pentax usually represents excellent value for money and has in-body optical image stabilization, which is nice for shooting on a budget. But Canon and Nikon have the advantage of many, many lenses on the market and therefore a large selection of used lenses bought extremely cost-effectively.

How to choose between them? Try them out at a camera shop. I advise you to make the choice on which you like better personally, ergonomically, or by image quality as you determine in person.

I wondered when people make such a statement if they even see, shoot with an Olympus DSLR camera or even saw a picture made by those camera.

While you gave credit to Pentax for having in-body image stabilizer, you forgot to do the same for Olympus.

Here is a link to an excellent E-510 (http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=OMEVE510KT) with one lens for $449.

The advantage of the 4/3rd system is its standardize format, which mean you can take any body and put any lens of the standard you want. In another hand if you buy an entry level Nikon or Canon and later decided to move to a pro-level body. While the 4/3rd system might not have the quantity of lens as for the two big names, it has excellent quality lens that cover the range from 14mm to 1000mm (in term of 35mm equivalent) and it doesn't cost more in term of quality wise.

However I do agree that the most important part in choosing a camera is to pick one up and wee how it feels in your hand because nowadays any DSLR is capable of producing great pictures.

[compuwar]

The advantage of the 4/3rd system is its standardize format, which mean you can take any body and put any lens of the standard you want.


Um no, now there's 4/3rds and micro 4/3rds, and while 4/3rds lenses will adapt, the opposite isn't true. There's also pretty-much no used lens market and the lens range is limited in terms of magnification (though not horrible in terms of AOV.)


In another hand if you buy an entry level Nikon or Canon and later decided to move to a pro-level body.


My Pro-level D2x happily accepts pretty-much all F-mount lenses made in the last ~50 years, so I' not sure what you *think* you're trying to make point-wise- but I'm considering a D3x, and it'll take all my lenses still- and every one of those lenses fits the entry-level bodies as well. Please supply a list of lenses for the D60 that won't work on the D3x.

[Mr. G4]

Um no, now there's 4/3rds and micro 4/3rds, and while 4/3rds lenses will adapt, the opposite isn't true. There's also pretty-much no used lens market and the lens range is limited in terms of magnification (though not horrible in terms of AOV.)

True that the lens is not backward compatible, hence, the different name in standard. If you look at any craigslist you will find plenty of kit lens and once people upgrade to a better lens they don't want to part from them, simple as that. However, you still can go to 4/3rd forum and there are buy and sell section.

My Pro-level D2x happily accepts pretty-much all F-mount lenses made in the last ~50 years, so I' not sure what you *think* you're trying to make point-wise- but I'm considering a D3x, and it'll take all my lenses still- and every one of those lenses fits the entry-level bodies as well. Please supply a list of lenses for the D60 that won't work on the D3x.

It might work but will it auto focus? That's is what I meant when I said it wont work. Do you mean that a full frame camera can use a smaller size sensor lens?

[TheStrudel]

Actually, in the case of Nikon, both of the answers to that question are "yes". Only the very low end cameras won't autofocus older AF lenses, and their full-frame cameras can operate the DX designated, APS-C crop lenses (albeit at a lower megapixel rating). The four-thirds system is a much younger system than all of the other systems used for DSLRs, and is therefore relatively immature. It's much less standard than systems employed by the other manufacturers. I did omit that it has in-body image stabilization, but in my opinion it's a moot point since Olympus advantages are negated by the disabilities that its competitors simply don't have.

It's true that any of the DSLRs from the major manufacturers will produce better image. But conventional wisdom and the thoughts of critics and photographers would argue that one is better served by a selection from Canon, Nikon, or Pentax instead of the options offered by Olympus, Sony, Sigma and the other manufacturers. There is more room to grow, a healthier accessory ecosystem, and a much larger lens selection.

[compuwar]

True that the lens is not backward compatible, hence, the different name in standard. If you look at any craigslist you will


Yes, but the important question there is can the 4/3rds ecosystem support *two* lens standards at this point in its evolution, or is one side going to get screwed? Personally, I think it can't, and since Oly is going all in on u4/3rds, standard 4/3rds users are likely to get screwed longer-term.


find plenty of kit lens and once people upgrade to a better lens they don't want to part from them, simple as that. However, you still can go to 4/3rd forum and there are buy and sell section.


I hardly think most folks looking for lens bargains are searching for kit lenses- that means you're pretty-much relegated to purchasing new lenses
- negating the disadvantage of the low-end Nikon bodies since at that point it's an apples-to-apples issue. If you're going to purchase new lenses anyway, you may as well go with a system that has options for full-frame in the future and lower noise.


It might work but will it auto focus? That's is what I meant when I said it wont work. Do you mean that a full frame camera can use a smaller size sensor lens?

Then you're simply wrong. Everything other than the lowest-end bodies can AF with any AF lens, so if you start at the low end digital, you're *always* going to have forwards-compatible AF if you trade up to a prosumer or pro body. There are about six current AF-D lenses that don't have equivalent options for AF on the lowest-end bodies, and about half of those are fisyeyes, in fact, I'd bet there are more lenses that will AF on the D60 than there are 4/3rds lenses period.

Nikon has been very good about putting DX crop modes into its FF cameras as well. The D3x offers just over 10MP of DX crop mode, so if you're invested in DX (APS-C) lenses, then you basically get a D90 image from the full-frame body if you use a DX lens.

Perhaps you should ask yourself the equivalent of I wondered when people make such a statement if they even see, shoot with an Olympus DSLR camera about Nikon cameras?

[gkarris]

At the Olympus haters - LOL....

Olympus is making big strides as far as the 4/3 sensor. I can tell the difference between my 500 and my newer 420 - much less noise and higher quality pics.

Yes, everyone's sensor is getting better and 4/3 will never catch up to the larger sensors, but why Olympus gets such a bad rap, I don't know. I've taken some awesome pics my Olympus cams.

Gonna take the 420 shooting this weekend and on purpose use higher ISO - to get an "older film" look. What better way to take a pic of the inside of a U-boat than with that and a Zeiss Lens... ;)

[Mr. G4]

The four-thirds system is a much younger system than all of the other systems used for DSLRs, and is therefore relatively immature. It's much less standard than systems employed by the other manufacturers. I did omit that it has in-body image stabilization, but in my opinion it's a moot point since Olympus advantages are negated by the disabilities that its competitors simply don't have.

I simply don't get your point. People buying camera that doesn't have in body camera end up paying more for lens when they want image stabilizer in their new lens. So camera with in body IS can put any lens, even legacy one, and still have IS, so to me it is a big plus.

It's true that any of the DSLRs from the major manufacturers will produce better image. But conventional wisdom and the thoughts of critics and photographers would argue that one is better served by a selection from Canon, Nikon, or Pentax instead of the options offered by Olympus, Sony, Sigma and the other manufacturers. There is more room to grow, a healthier accessory ecosystem, and a much larger lens selection.

So you pick OSX over Windows because it has more accessories and software running on it or because what you want to do with it, it can do better. I chose 4/3rd because it's small and light and because Olympus is an innovative company like Apple. Company that lead with innovation for other to copy such as the Dust buster with no equal from other company as we speak. The first company to come out with live view etc, ect...I didn't chose Olympus despite what the so call critics said. Does "Think Different" remind you of anything? All my Olympus photogear I bough them used, so it's not that difficult for other to so the same.

[Mr. G4]

Yes, but the important question there is can the 4/3rds ecosystem support *two* lens standards at this point in its evolution, or is one side going to get screwed? Personally, I think it can't, and since Oly is going all in on u4/3rds, standard 4/3rds users are likely to get screwed longer-term.

As I said there is a full range of lens to chose from, not only two...do some research and educate yourself.
I don't know where you get that information. Olympus CEO has said again and again they are not abandoning 4/3rd standard on the contrary, while Panasonic released two µ4/3rd, Olympus had released so far 3 4/3rd DSLR this year.

I hardly think most folks looking for lens bargains are searching for kit lenses- that means you're pretty-much relegated to purchasing new lenses
- negating the disadvantage of the low-end Nikon bodies since at that point it's an apples-to-apples issue. If you're going to purchase new lenses anyway, you may as well go with a system that has options for full-frame in the future and lower noise.

Then you're simply wrong. Everything other than the lowest-end bodies can AF with any AF lens, so if you start at the low end digital, you're *always* going to have forwards-compatible AF if you trade up to a prosumer or pro body. There are about six current AF-D lenses that don't have equivalent options for AF on the lowest-end bodies, and about half of those are fisyeyes, in fact, I'd bet there are more lenses that will AF on the D60 than there are 4/3rds lenses period.

Nikon has been very good about putting DX crop modes into its FF cameras as well. The D3x offers just over 10MP of DX crop mode, so if you're invested in DX (APS-C) lenses, then you basically get a D90 image from the full-frame body if you use a DX lens.

Like I said what is the point of buying full frame camera to shoot down in resolution.


Perhaps you should ask yourself the equivalent of about Nikon cameras?

Yes I did. I have used an D700, D300 and D60 from friends of mine. How about you?

[compuwar]

At the Olympus haters - LOL....


FWIW, I don't hate Olympus, I just think they made huge errors in going small early, and it's going to cost them- possibly everything. But in this case, I was simply responding to an Olympus fanboy's misstatements.


Yes, everyone's sensor is getting better and 4/3 will never catch up to the larger sensors, but why Olympus gets such a bad rap, I don't know. I've taken some awesome pics my Olympus cams.


That's the point though- if you can't catch up, you need another edge- and the difference between the smaller APS-C DSLRs and the full 4/3rds isn't really that significant. Samsung's going to have second-mover advantage, and more chance of getting into retail with more product when they release the EVF-based NX line, which will have an APS-C sized sensor. At that point, you've got a system that's not likely to win any IQ battles with a competitor at the same size- so what's the sales pitch to the consumer for 4/3rds at that point?

Oly's financial status is bad- and they were actually pulling out of the dive before the global meltdown, so it's a shame- but they're going to have an uphill battle, and there's little advantage to a takeover since Panasonic makes the same stuff. Just like Hoya's inability to sell Pentax's camera division after they acquired them Oly's going to have to try to make its camera division profitable on its own merits, and that's a long uphill battle (though probably not as far uphill as Hoya will have to go.)

The global DSLR market is still expanding- and if the analysts are right, we've got 2-3 years before it starts to contract- if a company can't make money in a growing market, how is it going to do in a contracting one?

I'll ask this- given all of the above, if someone wanted small and didn't want to wait to see how the NX faired, what would make them choose Oly when Panasonic looks like a less-risky choice in the 4/3rds camp?

[John.B]

Check out Ken Rockwell's site www.kenrockwell.com. Some people hate the guy, some love him.
If you'll start a new poll, I promise to vote for "hate the guy"... ;)

To the OP, google "megapixel myth" and read up on it from a variety of sources vs. just one goofball. :D

[gkarris]

That's the point though- if you can't catch up, you need another edge- and the difference between the smaller APS-C DSLRs and the full 4/3rds isn't really that significant. Samsung's going to have second-mover advantage, and more chance of getting into retail with more product when they release the EVF-based NX line, which will have an APS-C sized sensor. At that point, you've got a system that's not likely to win any IQ battles with a competitor at the same size- so what's the sales pitch to the consumer for 4/3rds at that point?

...

Catch up with what? For what? What? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Why waste time with all this? :confused:

Just go out and take and enjoy pics! Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Polariod One-Step, Kodak Pocket 110... :)

[compuwar]

As I said there is a full range of lens to chose from, not only two...do some research and educate yourself.


You may consider it a full range, but again, AOV isn't equal to magnification, so it's not as "full" as you portray. I said two *standards*, please take the time to actually read what's said. Olympus has put itself into the unenviable position of having to tool for two different flange->image plane distances while Samsung will have only one and a larget sensor- that's not good news for Oly.


I don't know where you get that information. Olympus CEO has said again and again they are not abandoning 4/3rd standard on the contrary, while Panasonic released two µ4/3rd, Olympus had released so far 3 4/3rd DSLR this year.


Again, (a) that means having to support two standards that are quite close to one another, and that's NOT a good thing from a business perspective, and (b) The looking forward part of the audio/slide presentation with their last annual report indicated that they were going to make their major press in u4/3s, which only makes sense, because if the advantage to the system is its size, u4/3 has a larger advantage. Besides the presentations, I refer you to page seven of the "Consolidated Financial Results for the Fiscal Year Ended March 31, 2009." That'd be the third paragraph in the section labled "Forecast for the Fiscal Year Ended March 31, 2010." So, I get that information from Olympus's own statements about where it is heading. I also trust a company's statements to its investors more than to its customers, since one has the ability to produce more lawsuits than the other ;)

In this case, from a business perspective, I think Panasonic is the smarter of the two companies, and more likely to gain the lion's share of that part of the market before the competition comes rolling in by pressing earlier on u4/3rds. Since Oly is forecasting 0% market share growth for next year and they lost 2% in the year that just ended, it seems they're close to not being able to grow share at all before the DSLR market starts to contract. Five years of negative share growth isn't a good thing, and hoping to simply not lose more share doesn't' seem like a good future- and they're looking at negative sales growth for digital cameras in 2010 according to their annual reports. Your best hope is that they expect to lose more P&S share than anything, though that's a long-term bad strategy in terms of customer loyalty in the trade-up making increased market share more expensive.


Like I said what is the point of buying full frame camera to shoot down in resolution.


To get an AOV that's compatible with the lenses you already own if you've invested in them. Since you get pretty-much the same resolution on the D3x as you'd get on any Olympus camera, and better noise characteristics it's not a disadvantage. You might also want smaller files or faster shooting- not every subject or event needs 20+ MPs.

What's the point of buying a system that only offers a small sensor?


Yes I did. I have used an D700, D300 and D60 from friends of mine. How about you?

Then you're incredibly uninformed about what you've shot with.

I've played with several Olympuses in the store, but given the disadvantages of the smaller sensor in terms of size, noise and DoF, it doesn't fit my work.

[dmk1974]

This is all pretty good and in-depth debate, but perhaps we can get back on track to this specific topic? :) D60, XS, or Other (and please specify that other).

Thanks!

[compuwar]

Catch up with what? For what? What? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...


Catch up with the IQ of the competition.


Why waste time with all this? :confused:


I'm interested in the market and the business aspects, and I'd like to hear the argument for Oly over Panasonic from someone who's obviously chosen Oly.
[/QUOTE]

[compuwar]

This is all pretty good and in-depth debate, but perhaps we can get back on track to this specific topic? :) D60, XS, or Other (and please specify that other).

Thanks!

The truth is it doesn't matter- either will take just fine pictures- and both have lots of future upgrade options. Unless there's a specific lens you want, like the Nikkor 18-200 or Canon 70-200/4 it's a coin toss.

[romanaz]

I simply don't get your point. People buying camera that doesn't have in body camera end up paying more for lens when they want image stabilizer in their new lens. So camera with in body IS can put any lens, even legacy one, and still have IS, so to me it is a big plus.





I'd rather has IS that works for my particular lens then one that does a sub-par job on every lens.

I've used a friends E-4?? series with what I believe was an 18-55 or such lens and a longer telephoto lens. The shorter lens wasn't to bad, got about 1 stop stabilization, so I was able to shoot @ 1/30 without much of a problem. On my XSi, I can easily shoot @ 1/15 with my wide-angle 18-55 lens.

rather pay for a better system for me then cheap out for a system that doesn't do what I need. How does that fit your windows vs mac analogy?

(not trying to rag on olympus, that camera was well built and solid and took pretty good pictures, but its not a camera I would use for my uses.)

[telecomm]

Here's (http://www.digitalreview.ca/content/Nikon-D60-Compared-to-Canon-Rebel-XS-1000D.shtml) a D60 vs XS review.

[John.B]

Here's (http://www.digitalreview.ca/content/Nikon-D60-Compared-to-Canon-Rebel-XS-1000D.shtml) a D60 vs XS review.
Because comparing P&S-type features that aren't very useful on an SLR as though they were important makes that site seem authoritative? In-camera editing on a tiny screen with crap for resolution? Live view? Auto mode features? Comes in silver or black? And then to gloss over the AF lens issue with one of the cameras? Really?

[telecomm]

Because comparing P&S-type features that aren't very useful on an SLR as though they were important makes that site seem authoritative? In-camera editing on a tiny screen with crap for resolution? Live view? Auto mode features? Comes in silver or black? And then to gloss over the AF lens issue with one of the cameras? Really?

Huh?

Relax John.B.

You may not think things like live view, in camera editing, etc., are important, but they are certainly becoming more common in dSLRs, and many people look for these features. (Much like HD video in higher end models, these "P&S" features are moving up into dSLRs, driven by consumer demand.) Are these critical features? Perhaps not, but they seem to be important to a great number of people buying these cameras, so I think that's reason enough to consider them in a review.

At any rate, this review is just one source, and shouldn't be taken as gospel. But I don't see why it should be ignored, particularly since it's rather relevant to the question asked by the OP. :p

[Mr. G4]

I'd rather has IS that works for my particular lens then one that does a sub-par job on every lens.

I've used a friends E-4?? series with what I believe was an 18-55 or such lens and a longer telephoto lens. The shorter lens wasn't to bad, got about 1 stop stabilization, so I was able to shoot @ 1/30 without much of a problem. On my XSi, I can easily shoot @ 1/15 with my wide-angle 18-55 lens.

rather pay for a better system for me then cheap out for a system that doesn't do what I need. How does that fit your windows vs mac analogy?

(not trying to rag on olympus, that camera was well built and solid and took pretty good pictures, but its not a camera I would use for my uses.)

There is no such lens in the 4/3rd standard. Beside the E-4xx are one of the old model that do not have IS because Olympus went with a small size body versus the bigger body of the E-5xx with IS. As for my analogy, it always surprised me to see Macusers putting down innovative company such as Olympus and use quantity-ecosystem over quality of Zuiko lens or follows what critics said. That's all, but it doesn't surprise me that you don't see the point.

You may consider it a full range, but again, AOV isn't equal to magnification, so it's not as "full" as you portray. I said two *standards*, please take the time to actually read what's said.

Sorry for that. However, the range I gave was taken in account of the magnification. Olympus and Panasonic have only to built new set of lens for µ4/3rd.


Then you're incredibly uninformed about what you've shot with.

I've played with several Olympuses in the store, but given the disadvantages of the smaller sensor in terms of size, noise and DoF, it doesn't fit my work.

You are probably right, I am a simplistic guy, I don't want to think about which lens has a motor built in to go with which camera that doesn't have in body motor built in or vice versa. As for noise, yes 4/3rd sensor produce more noise in higher ISO than 800 for some model and 1600 for other, but like you said not everybody have a need to shoot all the time in 3200 and up. As for DoF, you will be surprised what 4/3rd camera can do. Playing in the store with camera doesn't count :p

By the way according to the latest test of Canon 500D on DPReview they are catching up with Olympus in term of "noisy" picture :D

As the OP requested I won't go OT anymore.

Here is one of my picture taken yesterday at the keynote...too many heads in front of me :)

http://cybercambodia.com/topass/2009/wwdc_09/14.jpg

[Mr. G4]

This is all pretty good and in-depth debate, but perhaps we can get back on track to this specific topic? :) D60, XS, or Other (and please specify that other).

Thanks!

Here is a link to an excellent E-510 (http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=OMEVE510KT) with one lens for $449.

Brand new not refurbished

Or the E-520 (http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=OME520KT2), newer model with two lens for $100 more

[John.B]

Huh?

Relax John.B.

You may not think things like live view, in camera editing, etc., are important, but they are certainly becoming more common in dSLRs, and many people look for these features. (Much like HD video in higher end models, these "P&S" features are moving up into dSLRs, driven by consumer demand.) Are these critical features? Perhaps not, but they seem to be important to a great number of people buying these cameras, so I think that's reason enough to consider them in a review.

At any rate, this review is just one source, and shouldn't be taken as gospel. But I don't see why it should be ignored, particularly since it's rather relevant to the question asked by the OP. :p
Fair enough. Point taken.

But dSLRs aren't P&S and I hate to see them sold to unknowing buyers based on P&S features.

For example, it would've been more to the point in that review to educate a potential dSLR buyer that Live View will never be as fast as using the viewfinder, yet it leaves the new-to-dSLR buyer with the impression that this is a "must have" when a little education would show them its really not all that important.

[dmk1974]

Well, I think I am set on getting the D60.

I was planning to get it again from Adorama as a refurb (per my original post), but I also see a good deal on it from Cameta Camera on ebay.

Adorama's refurbs come with a 90-day Nikon warranty.
Cameta Camera's come with a 1-year Cameta warranty.

Do you think one is really better than the other?

[compuwar]

Adorama's refurbs come with a 90-day Nikon warranty.
Cameta Camera's come with a 1-year Cameta warranty.

Do you think one is really better than the other?

I'd go with the 1yr warranty.

[gkarris]

Well, I think I am set on getting the D60.

I was planning to get it again from Adorama as a refurb (per my original post), but I also see a good deal on it from Cameta Camera on ebay.

Adorama's refurbs come with a 90-day Nikon warranty.
Cameta Camera's come with a 1-year Cameta warranty.

Do you think one is really better than the other?

I ordered my E-420 from Cameta and it was the lowest price, new with a USA warranty.

Cameta is pretty awesome...

If you go with Nikon, don't waste time with their regular lenses - get the ED ones.

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

[iShater]

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

Where did you rent it from? (Chicagoland right?)

[compuwar]

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

I hate to agree with KR, but:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/nikortek.htm#ed

(FWIW, the 80-400 is "good," but not "outstanding" in terms of IQ- I own one, and it's the first lens I'd ditch if I had to ditch a lens, especially at the long end.)

[dmk1974]

I ordered my E-420 from Cameta and it was the lowest price, new with a USA warranty.

Cameta is pretty awesome...

If you go with Nikon, don't waste time with their regular lenses - get the ED ones.

I rented a Nikon 80-400 ED and the pics I took with it were outstanding.

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

[telecomm]

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

The VR version of that lens is better.

[iShater]

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

The $130 has VR, that is why it is more expensive.

[TheStrudel]

I still think you're best served by trying the cameras you're considering in person, but whatever you pick, budget for lenses, too. All the cameras at that price point will produce good images, but the lens is very important.

[tbrinkma]

I think the important thing to note with the 4/3 vs. micro-4/3 commentary running here is that the two standards are designed to fit different spaces.

The 4/3 system is designed for the traditional dSLR camera space. The micro-4/3 system is designed to allow lens-swapping in the high-end P&S space (and hopefully eventually across the entire P&S space if it takes off). The fact that you can use an adapter to put a 4/3 lens on a micro-4/3 body means you can actually use top-end lenses on your incredibly light-weight body if you should choose to do so.

Olympus, due to the smaller sensor size of 4/3 (which they understood going in) has already started focusing on increasing sensor *sensitivity* to improve image quality, while most other manufacturers are instead still focusing on more mega-pixels, which often has the side effect of resulting in a worse picture due to increased noise.

[gkarris]

Where did you rent it from? (Chicagoland right?)

Calumet. It's cool - a weekend (3pm Fri. - Noon Mon.) is considered 1 day... :)

I hate to agree with KR, but:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/nikortek.htm#ed

(FWIW, the 80-400 is "good," but not "outstanding" in terms of IQ- I own one, and it's the first lens I'd ditch if I had to ditch a lens, especially at the long end.)

Lot's of walking around getting pics over that weekend. It's smaller than the 2.8L IS Canon 70-200... :)

So wait, are you saying the the $100 lens is better than the $130 lens? See links below.

http://www.adorama.com/NK1855DX2R.html?searchinfo=nikon+18+55+refurbished
http://www.adorama.com/NK1855VRR.html?searchinfo=nikon+refurbished+lens

The VR version of that lens is better.

See slrgear.com for the advantages/disadvantages of one over the other. Best thing to do is take them out shooting and see which one you like better. But, in general go for the VR. Best is ED VR.

[romanaz]

I stand corrected then. I retract my comment on that Olympus.

I'm not saying Olympus is not a quality system, I've seen some damned good pictures come from it. But, for what I see myself needing, which is a fast, good low-light camera for indoor sports with plenty of room to upgrade and go to in the future with lens's that meet my needs, aka the 50 f/1.4 or 1.2, the 85 f/1.8 or f/1.2, the 100 f/2 etc... as well as a bigger sensor down the line such as the 1D mk III has.

Those are my needs. Are they the needs that everyone has? No. But I'm more then willing to pay more for a system that will allow me to expand into a money making business (I hope) farther down the line.

To me, for the sake of this thread, I would say the XS. To me, it feels better in hand, has easier access to the controls, like the ISO button, and it can autofocus any canon lens that mounts to it. I'd rather have the knowledge that any Canon branded lens I buy, will autofocus on my camera, rather then have to be careful that I buy an AF-S lens for the nikon. That, and nikons lens naming system is mad annoying to me, sometimes DX is in one place, sometimes its in another. Same with VR. Consistency would be nice.

There is no such lens in the 4/3rd standard. Beside the E-4xx are one of the old model that do not have IS because Olympus went with a small size body versus the bigger body of the E-5xx with IS. As for my analogy, it always surprised me to see Macusers putting down innovative company such as Olympus and use quantity-ecosystem over quality of Zuiko lens or follows what critics said. That's all, but it doesn't surprise me that you don't see the point.



Sorry for that. However, the range I gave was taken in account of the magnification. Olympus and Panasonic have only to built new set of lens for µ4/3rd.



You are probably right, I am a simplistic guy, I don't want to think about which lens has a motor built in to go with which camera that doesn't have in body motor built in or vice versa. As for noise, yes 4/3rd sensor produce more noise in higher ISO than 800 for some model and 1600 for other, but like you said not everybody have a need to shoot all the time in 3200 and up. As for DoF, you will be surprised what 4/3rd camera can do. Playing in the store with camera doesn't count :p

By the way according to the latest test of Canon 500D on DPReview they are catching up with Olympus in term of "noisy" picture :D

As the OP requested I won't go OT anymore.

Here is one of my picture taken yesterday at the keynote...too many heads in front of me :)

http://cybercambodia.com/topass/2009/wwdc_09/14.jpg

[Azrel]

Does anyone have a wallpaper of the above "Snow Leopard".... I've searched everywhere and cannot find one. I would love that leopard on my desktop. :cool:

[dmk1974]

I do have to say, Adorama does ship pretty fast. Ordered at noon Wednesday...scheduled for delivery Friday (NJ to Chicago via UPS ground).

I also did elect to go with the gold pimp version of the D60 :)

[iShater]

^^ nice dude! :D

Make sure to hit the botanic garden and spend a day practicing some out door shooting. :)

I want to do that this weekend!

[Deathishere]

Nice dmk :) I just bought a refurb D60 from cametacameras on ebay and then bought the 18-55mm DX VR lens from adorama. Total was like $410

[dmk1974]

Nice dmk :) I just bought a refurb D60 from cametacameras on ebay and then bought the 18-55mm DX VR lens from adorama. Total was like $410

Sweet deal! I was also tracking all of the Cameta auctions on ebay for the D60, but the past few days, it looked like a lot of them were really running up in price (maybe due to this thread? :)

Let me know how yours is when you get it. I preferred that 1-year warranty from Cameta, but I wanted to hopefully get it before the weekend (looks like I will!).

[Deathishere]

Haha yeah a few with the VR lens included were going pretty high, but I guess I just got pretty lucky

[gkarris]

Sweet deal! I was also tracking all of the Cameta auctions on ebay for the D60, but the past few days, it looked like a lot of them were really running up in price (maybe due to this thread? :)

Let me know how yours is when you get it. I preferred that 1-year warranty from Cameta, but I wanted to hopefully get it before the weekend (looks like I will!).

Quicker if you get it through Cameta's Store on Amazon rather than trying to use auctions on eBay...

[dmk1974]

Man, this refurb I got from Adorama sure isn't as clean looking as the refurb Canon I had gotten from them in March. The body looks pretty good, but some small scratches on the LCD screen (no peel-away plastic covering or anything). The lens seems ok, but some wear, scuffs, and dirt particles.

All that matters is how it works, right? Well, I took a number of shots and it looks like I have a dead pixel on the sensor! Every photo has it in the same spot. I don't see anything on the lens and I don't think it's a dust particle since it's very uniform when I zoom in every time (looks kinda like a white plus).

Is there maybe an easy fix for this or do I just have to go through the hassle of returning it?

[dmk1974]

Nice dmk :) I just bought a refurb D60 from cametacameras on ebay and then bought the 18-55mm DX VR lens from adorama. Total was like $410

Also, let me know what kind of shape it is in from Cameta. Maybe I should order from them?

[Deathishere]

Man, this refurb I got from Adorama sure isn't as clean looking as the refurb Canon I had gotten from them in March. The body looks pretty good, but some small scratches on the LCD screen (no peel-away plastic covering or anything). The lens seems ok, but some wear, scuffs, and dirt particles.

All that matters is how it works, right? Well, I took a number of shots and it looks like I have a dead pixel on the sensor! Every photo has it in the same spot. I don't see anything on the lens and I don't think it's a dust particle since it's very uniform when I zoom in every time (looks kinda like a white plus).

Is there maybe an easy fix for this or do I just have to go through the hassle of returning it?

I would take it back if it has that many problems with it. Especially the dead pixel. Sucks you got a bad one :( Yeah they haven't sent me an email saying it was shipped yet, but I guess it has only been a day..Hopefully mine wont be like yours was and hope your next one wont be like that.

[TheSVD]

well, ill tell you how i chose between those 2 very cameras. The nikon has a CCD sensor and the canon has a CMOS sensor - in my opinion, the CMOS sensor is better.
The second reason being that i find that good lenses for canon cameras are cheaper.
The only reason i would like the nikon is because you can use older lenses with it, unlike the canon, in which you need newer lenses. Otherwise, id get the rebel XS :) ive played with teh two of them and found the canon is just alot nicer.
My 2 cents :)

[compuwar]

well, ill tell you how i chose between those 2 very cameras. The nikon has a CCD sensor and the canon has a CMOS sensor - in my opinion, the CMOS sensor is better.

Which only says you're not that well-informed about sensors. Manufacturers use CMOS because it's cheaper, and that's the main driver because the sensor is the single-most expensive component in the system.

[gkarris]

Man, this refurb I got from Adorama sure isn't as clean looking as the refurb Canon I had gotten from them in March. The body looks pretty good, but some small scratches on the LCD screen (no peel-away plastic covering or anything). The lens seems ok, but some wear, scuffs, and dirt particles.

All that matters is how it works, right? Well, I took a number of shots and it looks like I have a dead pixel on the sensor! Every photo has it in the same spot. I don't see anything on the lens and I don't think it's a dust particle since it's very uniform when I zoom in every time (looks kinda like a white plus).

Is there maybe an easy fix for this or do I just have to go through the hassle of returning it?

Was it a Manufacturer's refurb or an open box refurb from Adorama?

[dmk1974]

Was it a Manufacturer's refurb or an open box refurb from Adorama?

Their listings for both the lens and camera said they were each "Refurbished by Nikon U.S.A.".

[LERsince1991]

I chose to go for the Canon over Nikon but that major thing for me was the len's. Haven't bought it yet though.

[gkarris]

Their listings for both the lens and camera said they were each "Refurbished by Nikon U.S.A.".

I highly doubt it was by Nikon USA and in that condition...

It's probably:

"Refurbished, by Nikon USA" meaning it's been refurbished, and the camera is by Nikon USA (not the refurbishment)... :eek:

Return that puppy, and go to Cameta.

Thanks for the heads-up. I was going to make a purchase from Adorama, but will not now. Will stick to Cameta (where I got my E-420, new). :)

[dmk1974]

I highly doubt it was by Nikon USA and in that condition...

It's probably:

"Refurbished, by Nikon USA" meaning it's been refurbished, and the camera is by Nikon USA (not the refurbishment)... :eek:

Return that puppy, and go to Cameta.

Thanks for the heads-up. I was going to make a purchase from Adorama, but will not now. Will stick to Cameta (where I got my E-420, new). :)

The gray Nikon box it came in did not have any kind of tamper-evident sticker on it or anything. When I had gotten my refurbed Canon a few months back from Adorama, it did. Could be just a difference in how Canon and Nikon clean up and package their refurbs? Has anyone else out there received/purchased a Nikon refurb and can share how it came? Better yet, a Nikon refurb from Cameta?

I know it's kinda weird, but I really did like that gold version of the D60. I guess I can live with a silver one as long as it's in good shape and works!

[dmk1974]

Here's one of the photos I took with the Gold D60 that I will be sending back. If you zoom in, you will see the dead/stuck pixel showing up as a white "plus" (as I have in every single photo with this camera) above the g and to the left of the dot over the second i in the large word "Digital" at the top of the book.

https://home.comcast.net/~dmk1974/images/DSC_0012.JPG

[dmk1974]

Here's one of the photos I took with the Gold D60 that I will be sending back. If you zoom in, you will see the dead/stuck pixel showing up as a white "plus" (as I have in every single photo with this camera) above the g and to the left of the dot over the second i in the large word "Digital" at the top of the book.

https://home.comcast.net/~dmk1974/images/DSC_0012.JPG

Here's a zoom of that section from the linked photo. This is unacceptable, correct? It shows in EVERY photo.

https://home.comcast.net/~dmk1974/images/DSC_0012zoom.JPG

[dmk1974]

Woohoo! I received the D60 and 18-105 VR lens that I ordered from Cameta Camera this time. Looks perfect and after a just a few test shots, no issues at all that I can see! It really looks like brand new! AND the best part, they sent me the gold "pimp" version as well (which I had ordered previously from Adorama, but thought I would be receiving the standard silver version this time). Pretty happy with my first order ever from Cameta Camera!

https://home.comcast.net/~dmk1974/images/IMG_0507a.JPG

[gkarris]

^^^ congrats, l had no problems with Cameta (E-420 new). Lightning fast ship and item as exactly described (new with US warranty) - best price around for a US model.

[sahasid]

Hi,

Reviving this thread coz i'm going thru the same dilemma as the originator of this thread, i.e. i'm also trying to decide between Canon EOS 1000D (Rebel XS) and Nikon D60.

I've been thru all the spec comparison, review, debates based on specs. Finally, i decided to check out pictures taken by both the cameras on flickr and that's where my question comes in..

I've scanned scores of photographs taken by different people with both the cameras and to my untrained eye, as compared to the D60, the the colors in the pics taken with the XS seem just a little bit less lively and with a mild bluish hue (mind it - i'm not talking on a very very marginal scale here... and its not based on 1 or 2 photographs, i've scanned hundreds at full resolution).

I just wanted to know whether nybody else has had the same feeling. Can this be attributed in anyway to the camera? Is it that the CCD sensor of the Nikon does better color reproduction than its CMOS counterpart of Canon at the lower ISO ranges (<400 - which is the range i would typically restrict myself to).

Appreciate ur views..

[compuwar]

I've scanned scores of photographs taken by different people with both the cameras and to my untrained eye, as compared to the D60, the the colors in the pics taken with the XS seem just a little bit less lively and with a mild bluish hue (mind it - i'm not talking on a very very marginal scale here... and its not based on 1 or 2 photographs, i've scanned hundreds at full resolution).

Appreciate ur views..

Most likely it's just that the Nikon has a more vibrant JPEG setting by default. If you're not shooting JPEGs, it won't matter in the least, and if you are, I'd suggest running through the different settings on both bodies in a store if you can- it's the only way to know for sure which you'll prefer. I certainly wouldn't pick one over the other based on Web gamut JPEGs on Flickr.

[rbownes]

I agree with compuwar. I have the D60 and when I set the quality to RAW+basic the camera will record 2 of the same picture every time you press the shoot button (one in RAW format and one jpeg). When I compare the 2 photos the jpeg colors are always brighter.....sometimes too much compared to the RAW file.

[dmk1974]

Just an update, I am still 100% happy with my D60 setup that I had described earlier in this thread. Great camera and value!

[dubels]

Didn't you have a Canon XS or XSi? Why didn't you stay with the Canon system if you had the lenses already? I am just curious, because I think I remember reading that his was for your dad... If you had a Canon already you could have shared lenses. I am not bashing on the D60, it is a nice camera for it's price.

I am currently deciding between the D60 and a used D70 for my dad so we can share lenses that I have for my D80. The only AF-S lens I have is the 35mm DX so I would like to get something with AF built in to the body.

[Belm]

Kind of off topic but....

I've been researching DSLRs for a while and I thought I had my mind made up about getting the D40. I went to adorama and the D40 and Canon XS are the same price, $430 refurbished. I don't want to spend more than $500 cause I'm planning to get a MBP early next year. My pockets are tight :D

I know Nikon is coming out with the D3000 soon, but I don't really want to spend that much. The only thing I'm kind of worried about is the Canon being small in my hands. From what I've read though, the Canon is supposedly a better system to begin with. Again I'm a total noob so I'm probably completely wrong. I feel like the XS would be a better deal at $430. Thoughts?

[pilotkid]

I say D40x! I'm selling my D40x body only for $350:D Its in "like new" condition. I'm selling it because I just bought a D90!!!

[pilotkid]

I say D40x! I'm selling my D40x body only for $350:D Its in "like new" condition. I'm selling it because I just bought a D90!!!
Now with all seriousness. I have throughly enjoyed my time with my D40x, it has been a great introduction into the great world of photography. It plays well with Macs and with the operator. Most importantly, it takes AMAZING pictures for its price.