Abuse row woman 'followed orders'

[radhak]

Abuse row woman 'followed orders' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3707593.stm)

somehow this seems to me very believable, more than that a few soldiers were being randomly abusive behind their superior's back and photographing it.


Abuse row woman 'followed orders'

One of the US soldiers charged with abusing Iraqi prisoners says she was following orders from her superiors.
Private Lynndie England told a Denver TV station she had been instructed to pose for the notorious photographs with naked Iraqi men at a Baghdad jail.

The army reservist said officers had applauded the pictures and told her that the humiliation of the prisoners was paying off.

Private England, 21, is one of seven American soldiers charged with abuse.

But much of the scandal has centred on the West Virginia woman because she features prominently in several photographs widely condemned by the White House and world leaders.

In one of the pictures she is seen smiling with a cigarette hanging from her lips, pointing a mock gun at the genitals of a naked prisoner. In another she is holding a leash tied round the neck of a naked inmate.

"I was instructed by persons in higher rank to stand there, hold this leash... and they took the picture. That's all I know," she told Denver's KCNC station.

Private England said that at the time she thought it was "kind of weird".

But, she said, her superiors praised the photographs and told her and her colleagues that it was a "good tactic".

"To us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told and the outcome was what they wanted."

Private England said worse things than those shown in the photographs took place in Abu Ghraib prison. But, following her lawyer's advice, she did not give details.

The interview was conducted at Fort Bragg in North Carolina, where the army reservist is in custody.

[IJ Reilly]

I going to make a bold prediction: None of these trials will occur before November, unless they are held in secret military tribunals (a politically bad idea). It's going to be very difficult to pin responsibility for prisoner abuse on PFCs and other low-ranking individuals, when it's become so apparent from the recent Senate testimony that nobody higher up wants to admit to being in charge.

[Stelliform]

I am dying to know who gave her the orders! According to the Brigadier General in charge of the prison, she wasn't allowed into the interrogation area. So who was in charge of this area? The CIA? We all know their fondness of the current administration. And who takes totally incriminating pictures like that? Smells to me like a setup. Perfect time to hurt GWB in the election. . . .

[mactastic]

I going to make a bold prediction: None of these trials will occur before November, unless they are held in secret military tribunals (a politically bad idea).

Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., will face a special court-martial in Baghdad next week.

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4955697/)

My understanding is that the special court martial is for lesser offenses, and cannot hand out as tough a punisment as a general court martial, but it looks like someone wants these trials, or at least some of them, to proceed quickly.

[zimv20]

And who takes totally incriminating pictures like that? Smells to me like a setup. Perfect time to hurt GWB in the election. . . .
you really think this is all a politically motivated setup?

on ABC news right now, there's a piece about two interregators who were trained at a US training facility. they were taught how to circumvent the geneva convention. they say the photos that have come out represent exactly what they were taught.

the ICRC report says the techniques are systemtic, not a diabolical plot to make bush look bad.

occum's razor suggests that the command to use these techniques come from a central location with the intent to get information.

[skunk]

I am dying to know who gave her the orders! According to the Brigadier General in charge of the prison, she wasn't allowed into the interrogation area. So who was in charge of this area? The CIA? We all know their fondness of the current administration. And who takes totally incriminating pictures like that? Smells to me like a setup. Perfect time to hurt GWB in the election. . . .
Are you seriously suggesting that the 300 or so photographs are all part of some elaborate set-up to discredit Bush????? Get real, please!

[mactastic]

you really think this is all a politically motivated setup?

on ABC news right now, there's a piece about two interregators who were trained at a US training facility. they were taught how to circumvent the geneva convention. they say the photos that have come out represent exactly what they were taught.

the ICRC report says the techniques are systemtic, not a diabolical plot to make bush look bad.

occum's razor suggests that the command to use these techniques come from a central location with the intent to get information.


Also I would submit that what was done to the Iraqi prisoners seems to be calculated to take advantage of their cultural 'weaknesses' for lack of a better term. That seems to indicate to me that particular forms of persuasion were chosen by people who knew what would be the most humiliating.

[skunk]

you really think this is all a politically motivated setup?

on ABC news right now, there's a piece about two interregators who were trained at a US training facility. they were taught how to circumvent the geneva convention. they say the photos that have come out represent exactly what they were taught.

the ICRC report says the techniques are systemtic, not a diabolical plot to make bush look bad.

occum's razor suggests that the command to use these techniques come from a central location with the intent to get information.
And there's this:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-051204prisons_lat,1,3656595.story?coll=la-home-headlines
wherein we are told that the Geneva Conventions mean something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in American english. And there I was, thinking it was all potaytoes and potahtoes....
WASHINGTON — Top U.S. defense officials were forced to defend military interrogation techniques they have approved for use in Iraq, saying today that such practices as depriving detainees of sleep and placing them in "stress positions" do not violate international law.

Under sharp fire from senators on a day when members of Congress viewed new and disturbing videos and photos of Iraqi prisoner abuse, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld told a Senate committee that Pentagon lawyers had decided that such practices as dietary manipulation and isolation for longer than 30 days complied with the Geneva Conventions, the international rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war.

However, Sen. Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) told Rumsfeld and Army Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that techniques approved by the Pentagon "go far beyond the standard which says there will be no physical or mental torture nor any other form of coercion or that the people involved will be exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

Myers replied that the practices are legal.

"Every time we have an interrogation, we have an interrogation plan," he told senators. "Those are appropriate. And that's what we're told by legal authorities and by anybody that believes in humane behavior."

The exchange came as the Bush administration was trying to ride out a furor over mistreatment of Iraqi war prisoners at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad that has obscured the U.S. war effort and complicated plans to turn sovereignty over to Iraqis in six weeks.

"Anything that's been authorized by the (Defense) Department was checked by the lawyers, and deemed to be consistent with the Geneva Conventions," Rumsfeld told the defense subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee.

Senators were extremely skeptical that sleep deprivation and stress positions and use of dogs meet that standard. And some Democratic senators called for the unequivocal adherence by the Pentagon to the Geneva Conventions during all interrogations, in Iraq or elsewhere.

Rumsfeld called the abuses a "body blow" for the country. He said they were "terrible, inhumane and they are inexcusable." But he said they did not amount to the beginning of an end to U.S. goals in Iraq.

Myers said that conditions in Iraq are going to get worse in the next month in Iraq, leading up to the date set for a handover of increased authority to an Iraqi government.

"Between now and 30 June we know it's going to get worse," he said.

In an interview after the hearing, Myers confirmed that he knew that Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. ground forces in Iraq, had approved the use of muzzled dogs in interrogation rooms. But he said the dogs were not approved to be used threateningly against prisoners. He also said their use as a security measure was consistent with the Geneva Conventions.

[mactastic]

Are you seriously suggesting that the 300 or so photographs are all part of some elaborate set-up to discredit Bush????? Get real, please!

According to this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/) it's 1,800 images and an 'undisclosed' number of video clips.

[skunk]

According to this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/) it's 1,800 images and an 'undisclosed' number of video clips.
That's some conspiracy... :eek:

[mactastic]

That's some conspiracy... :eek:

Do you think it would qualify as 'vast'? ;)

[skunk]

Do you think it would qualify as 'vast'? ;)
I dunno, but it's certainly left-wing! :p

[IJ Reilly]

That's some conspiracy... :eek:

There's no conspiracy theory like a massive, complex and fantastical conspiracy theory to get the juices really flowing. The ICRC must be in on it too.

[IJ Reilly]

Do you think it would qualify as 'vast'? ;)

No, not "vast" -- closer to "half-vast."

[skunk]

There's no conspiracy theory like a massive, complex and fantastical conspiracy theory to get the juices really flowing. The ICRC must be in on it too.
Don't forget the UN. They are at the root of this. And the FRENCH!!! Why didn't I see that before?

[skunk]

No, not "vast" -- closer to "half-vast."
:rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

Don't forget the UN. They are at the root of this. And the FRENCH!!! Why didn't I see that before?

Bloody 'ell. And can anyone account for what the Germans were up to during all of this? I thought not!

[skunk]

Bloody 'ell. And can anyone account for what the Germans were up to during all of this? I thought not!
Up to no good, I'm sure!

[Sun Baked]

One of the US soldiers charged with abusing Iraqi prisoners says she was following orders from her superiors. Sort of sad that people don't stand up for others, but blindly follow orders.

Especially when they think the orders are a bit weird.

But some of these tactics are practiced here on US soil all the time, especially sleep deprivation and making people uncomfortable.

Should make some of the police interrogation cases interesting if these are deemed torture to prisoners in Iraq, and the impact it'll have on case law here.

[skunk]

But some of these tactics are practiced here on US soil all the time, especially sleep deprivation and making people uncomfortable.

Should make some of the police interrogation cases interesting if these are deemed torture to prisoners in Iraq, and the impact it'll have on case law here.
Yup.

[mactastic]

Sort of sad that people don't stand up for others, but blindly follow orders.

Especially when they think the orders are a bit weird.

But some of these tactics are practiced here on US soil all the time, especially sleep deprivation and making people uncomfortable.

Should make some of the police interrogation cases interesting if these are deemed torture to prisoners in Iraq, and the impact it'll have on case law here.

I think the main problem is that the people involved were not professionals. The methods described are, by and large, 'torture lite'. The problem comes in when you have untrained soldiers and reservists acting on raw emotion. Also those 'torture lite' tactics should only be used in extreme cases such as hardened terrorists trained to resist questioning. From all accounts, most of the Iraqis were picked up in neighborhood sweeps. Even US commanders estimate that over 80% were innocent. Torturing the innocent isn't productive, unless your goal is to create blood enemies.

Of course, the pictures members of Congress saw today supposedly contained evidence of rape and murder of Iraqis.

[Thanatoast]

From the beginning of the "war on terror" Bush has done his utmost make clear that prisoners captured by the US are not to be held under the Geneva Conventions and that the US will not consider itself bound by any international rules or accepted practices in regards to those prisoners. Now his policies have come back to bite him in the ass. My only sorrow is that the rampant blame-shifting going on means that neither he nor his immediate cronies will get the axe for their disgusting actions and orders in the name of "defending" the nation.

[poopyhead]

Amazingly similar charges are coming out of Afghanistan. It appears that sexual humiliation was possibly part of standard operating procedure for the intelligence services
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/12/international/asia/12AFGH.html
it's the New York Times so free registration is required
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4951668/
similar article from MSNBC no registration required
the NYT article is, however, much better

[blackfox]

I've said this before in other threads recently, and I will again:
To understand all this, just substitute "Isreal" for the "United States" and it all makes sense (not that I feel any better)...

[takao]

'following orders' is _no_ excuse for war crimes. period.

i was thought during my service if i get an order which would conflict with human rights,geneva convention etc.
you _have to_
1. ask for an _written_ order
2. contact the next higher commanding person and ask if this order is correct... he has to give you a written permission to follow the order despite breaking the convention and human rights

and after that you can either follow the order or disobey the order without punishment

i guess similiar things exist in the US Army and because of that i just don't believe things like "i didn't know that these things were happening"

[Voltron]

'following orders' is _no_ excuse for war crimes. period.

i was thought during my service if i get an order which would conflict with human rights,geneva convention etc.
you _have to_
1. ask for an _written_ order
2. contact the next higher commanding person and ask if this order is correct... he has to give you a written permission to follow the order despite breaking the convention and human rights

and after that you can either follow the order or disobey the order without punishment

i guess similiar things exist in the US Army and because of that i just don't believe things like "i didn't know that these things were happening"
Privates are presumed to not have the brains to decide what is or is not a valid order. Life can be very hard for a Private that didn't "play the game".

[takao]

Privates are presumed to not have the brains to decide what is or is not a valid order. Life can be very hard for a Private that didn't "play the game".

we were trained :"you don't stop being a human when you're wearing the uniform.. never forget who you are..."
because of this drill instructors aren't allowed to insult privates during training either...

for us forcing a prisoner to kneel down was forbidden
either let him lay down on the ground or let him stand... because for somebody from a dangerous country it is the synonym of "execution"

and various other things...

yeah and the austrian army has a dedicated unit for muslims,where they get the food like the quoran wants it, have dedicated times for their prayers etc., and they have special trained staff who command them..

[mactastic]

So the privates who were involved with herding Jews into the gas chambers are A-OK with you Sly?

[Sun Baked]

Looks like it's getting worse, for the US...

At least we know what the US did to the people who reported the abuse. They vanished, darn MIB. :p Lawyer Says Accused U.S. Spy May Have Abuse Proof (http://news.findlaw.com/news/s/20040512/securityguantanamodc.html)

TRAVIS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (Reuters) - A lawyer for a Syrian-born U.S. airman accused of espionage said on Tuesday that potentially damaging evidence of how detainees were treated at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba may surface during his client's court-martial hearing.

Attorney Donald Rehkopf also said he is confident many remaining charges against U.S. Air Force translator Ahmad Al Halabi will be dropped. Thirteen charges were dropped or withdrawn by prosecutors during previous pretrial hearings under Judge Col. Barbara Brand.

Halabi faces charges of spying and misusing classified information while serving as a translator at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the military base where the United States has imprisoned suspected al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.

"He complained how the detainees were being treated," Rehkopf said, declining to provide details.

Rehkopf said Halabi had been ordered by superiors to look out for and report abuses of prisoners.

The Pentagon is assessing conditions at Guantanamo Bay amid an abuse scandal at a military-run prison outside Baghdad that has cast into question how detainees are being treated while in U.S. military custody. Graphic photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners has provoked international outrage.

Halabi faces life in prison if convicted of charges that include carrying jail maps, letters and other sensitive documents from Guantanamo Bay and sending e-mail on behalf of prisoners.

Halabi's court martial trial is scheduled to begin in mid-June. Most of his pretrial motions at issue on Tuesday argue his lawyers are not able to see classified material or to discuss certain topics with him because they are classified.

"My constitutional effectiveness as a defense attorney is being seriously impeded because I can't talk to my client on all matters and can't see all the evidence," Rehkopf said.

[radhak]

Senators: Images Show Forced Sex, Snarling Dogs (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_1-T&oldflok=FF-APO-1152&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040513%2F0731145371.htm&sc=1152&photoid=20040512LLJ104)

This is getting to worse than i ever imagined, no longer just some soldiers playing the fool. This is what Pvt England must have meant when she talked to TV earlier ('much worse...'):

In separate private screenings on Capitol Hill, House and Senate members saw photos and video Wednesday of Iraqi corpses, military dogs menacing cowering Iraqi prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose themselves and other sexual abuses.

Some lawmakers said the pictures included forced homosexual sex; others said the quality of the photos were too poor to discern what was happening. ``I saw cruel, sadistic torture,'' said Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., who added that some of the images were of male prisoners masturbating. She said she saw a man hitting himself against a wall as though to knock himself unconscious.

Sen. Ben Nelson, D-Neb., said he did not see acts of violence, but what appeared to be ``results of acts of violence.''

He said he saw people in body bags and a person with a face ``virtually gone.'' He saw ``people being stitched up above the eyebrow apparently unconscious.''

Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., said, ``There were people who were forced to have sex with each other.''

Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., said, ``There were some pictures where it looked like a prisoner was sodomizing himself'' with an object. He said blood was visible in the photograph.



but this pathetic attempt to save the situation is really, well, pathetic :


But House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said he thought ``some people are overreacting.'' ``The people who are against the war are using this to their political ends,'' he said.



of course, we have the master himself giving us why President Bush calls him "a strong secretary of defense", and why the USA " owes him a debt of gratitude" :


En route to Iraq for a surprise visit Thursday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told reporters traveling with him that administration lawyers oppose releasing the photos on grounds that would violate a Geneva Convention stricture against presenting images of prisoners that could be construed as degrading.


edited for spelling

[toontra]

En route to Iraq for a surprise visit Thursday, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told reporters traveling with him that administration lawyers oppose releasing the photos on grounds that would violate a Geneva Convention stricture against presenting images of prisoners that could be construed as degrading.


Hah, I just heard this on the news. Please someone tell me he's joking about this! Is he seriously claiming that he can't reveal evidence of serious human rights abuse, torture and contraventions of the Geneva Convention because this would be to breach the Geneva Convention?

To make statements like this with a straight face belies how little respect this guy has for the intelligence of his audience.

[mactastic]

I saw the first part of the Rumsfeld speech this morning. He stated he has stopped reading the newspapers among other things he mentions. So now we have a Sec. Defense and a POTUS, neither of whom profess to read the newspapers. I realize they have access to the intel services and all that, but it really shows a lack of curiosity on their part. Of course, that's why the prisoner abuse scandal got as big as it did, due to the lack of curiosity of Rummy and Bush in following up on the rumors and reports that were swirling around. Guess it's just 'cuz there were no pictures...

[mactastic]

Hah, I just heard this on the news. Please someone tell me he's joking about this! Is he seriously claiming that he can't reveal evidence of serious human rights abuse, torture and contraventions of the Geneva Convention because this would be to breach the Geneva Convention?


This administration is making a big mistake by witholding the photos and videos. They have a choice to get this all out at once under their control, or to have it slowly leaked over time. But make no mistake, the most sensational photos will be leaked to the press and at a time and place NOT of the administration's choice. I thought people in Washington DC had learned this, but I guess not.

[radhak]

I saw the first part of the Rumsfeld speech this morning. He stated he has stopped reading the newspapers among other things he mentions. So now we have a Sec. Defense and a POTUS, neither of whom profess to read the newspapers. I realize they have access to the intel services and all that, but it really shows a lack of curiosity on their part. Of course, that's why the prisoner abuse scandal got as big as it did, due to the lack of curiosity of Rummy and Bush in following up on the rumors and reports that were swirling around. Guess it's just 'cuz there were no pictures...
Did he say which newspaper, or did he mean all? If 'all', then that is much more serious than just lack of curiosity. No self respecting public figure, much less belonging to the US Government, would admit to not reading newspapers. The media, particularly the print media, is perhaps the most accurate mirror of what the world does and what it thinks. If nothing else, this only confirms that Rumsfeld has no perspective proportionate to his office's influence on US history.

[zimv20]

the adminstration saw fit to release photos of prisoners at gitmo, to the cries that it violated the GC by humiliating them. this administration has absolutely no sense of hypocrisy.

[Voltron]

So the privates who were involved with herding Jews into the gas chambers are A-OK with you Sly?
watch the movie called "The Grey Zone."
And don't waste time putting words into my mouth.

[toontra]

Did he say which newspaper, or did he mean all? If 'all', then that is much more serious than just lack of curiosity. No self respecting public figure, much less belonging to the US Government, would admit to not reading newspapers. The media, particularly the print media, is perhaps the most accurate mirror of what the world does and what it thinks. If nothing else, this only confirms that Rumsfeld has no perspective proportionate to his office's influence on US history.

This is surely further evidence of what Seymour Hersch described as an administration which simply ignores any and all advice or information which conflicts with its policy and ideology. We're talking megalomania here!

[mactastic]

watch the movie called "The Grey Zone."
And don't waste time putting words into my mouth.

I asked you a question hostile-meister. Don't waste time snapping at me for asking a question you don't want to answer.

[mactastic]

Did he say which newspaper, or did he mean all? If 'all', then that is much more serious than just lack of curiosity. No self respecting public figure, much less belonging to the US Government, would admit to not reading newspapers. The media, particularly the print media, is perhaps the most accurate mirror of what the world does and what it thinks. If nothing else, this only confirms that Rumsfeld has no perspective proportionate to his office's influence on US history.

Dunno. I heard 'newspapers' but it was a live TV event so I don't have the transcript.

And as to no self-respecting public figure admitting reading the paper, Dubya has long ago copped to that.

[Voltron]

It was just reported on TV that the Boston Globe printed pictures in their paper from that Porn site someone posted on here as if they came from Iraq.

Print media isn't all that reliable and is almost always old news.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Voltron
watch the movie called "The Grey Zone."
And don't waste time putting words into my mouth.

I asked you a question hostile-meister. Don't waste time snapping at me for asking a question you don't want to answer.
You really should watch the move called "The Grey Zone."
Its about those who worked at Auschwitz during the course of the movie you are taken thru the assembly line of the gassing of the Jews as well as the disposal of their bodies. The crematories were ran by Jews. Each team of Jews would last about 4 months before they in turn were executed. The reward for cooperating with the Germans in processing their brethren was to keep the loot, food, and wine that the Jewish prisoners who were processed brought to the camp with them.

[poopyhead]

It was just reported on TV that the Boston Globe printed pictures in their paper from that Porn site someone posted on here as if they came from Iraq.

Print media isn't all that reliable and is almost always old news.

Origionaly there was an arab news network that posted the pictures from the porn sight interspersed with actual pictures of prisoner abuse. I am sure the Boston Globe obtained their story from elsewhere probably from a wire service or the arab network wich posted the story and pictures on the internet.

[radhak]

And as to no self-respecting public figure admitting to [not] reading the paper, Dubya has long ago copped to that.

well, like i said, 'self-respecting', not megalomanic. ;)

[radhak]

It was just reported on TV that the Boston Globe printed pictures in their paper from that Porn site someone posted on here as if they came from Iraq.
QUOTE]
Great, so the chief of this country stops reading all of them?

[QUOTE=Voltron]Print media isn't all that reliable and is almost always old news.
'Old news' means they almost definitely spend more time and resources on verifying their sources, at least the leading papers. They do not have the luxury of revisiting their web-page and editing or even deleting a whole page/article. Many have tens or hundreds of years of reputation to protect, so they can be expected to do their homework right. Yes, Jason Blairs happen, but far more infrequently than can be expected from other media.

Of course, if Bush/Rumsfeld could point out alternate sources of information that they rely on, i might not fret; but then, they have also said that the CIA misled them, that they had just as much information about Iraq's WMD as any other common man, so who are they kidding? And if they don't even read newspapers, no wonder we are where we are! :mad: The average commuter on any Amtrak might be more informed, just because of a $1-a-day subscription to some newspaper.