Poll: Is 1.29 Euros a song too much to charge for iTunes Europe? [Archive]

nagromme

May 13, 2004, 03:25 PM

Rates are ONLY speculation for now anyway, but according to the self-updating current exchange rates built into Mac OS X Calculator, 1.29 euros currently comes to US$1.53. Sounds steep to me. Are Apple's costs higher there?

The question then is, how much to music CDs in stores cost in europe vs. US? $14 is typical where I live for physical CDs. Are CDs in europe frequently over 21 euros?

caveman_uk

May 13, 2004, 03:30 PM

In the UK, they are available online (play.com) for $16 including tax and delivery. In 'real' stores they are in the $20-25 inc. tax range.

winmacguy

May 13, 2004, 03:48 PM

Rates are ONLY speculation for now anyway, but according to the self-updating current exchange rates built into Mac OS X Calculator, 1.28 euros currently comes to US$1.53. Sounds steep to me. Are Apple's costs higher there?

The question then is, how much to music CDs in stores cost in europe vs. US? $14 is typical where I live for physical CDs. Are CDs in europe are frequently over 21 euros?
I know its not that relevant but new CDs in NZ are around $34.95 which works out to around $17 dollars at the current exchange rate (rip off if you ask me)
Considering that the Euro is currently stronger than the US dollar, and so is Sterling I would have thought that it would be better to price the first iTMS as close to .99 Euros as possible. I guess that is what you get for having in effective greedy Eurocrats. (European Beauracrats)

cc bcc

May 13, 2004, 04:07 PM

It doesn't really surprise me since Apple always charges more in Europe.

But I can legally rip songs from my friends for personal use. Also, allofmp3.com is a much better deal than iTMS, and it's legal. They charge $5 for 500MB, any codec and/or quality you want.

edit: If this will be the price in Europe, Apple might as well not do it. They will only re-affirm their reputation as being expensive, and that will be difficult to loose that even if prices come down later on. And I don't expect a lot of people to be willing to pay so much. (OTOH although I bought an iPod I didn't expect so many people would buy one ;-)

nagromme

May 13, 2004, 04:15 PM

If I understand the replies above, 1.29 euros might be in line with music in general costing more in Europe. And with the labels involved and taking the biggest cut (not Apple) I wouldn't rush to blame Apple necessarily.

And if music in general DOES cost more in Europe, then the same economics that make a .99 single worth it to me in the US will apply in Europe, too, at 1.29.

Hopefully albums will be priced sensibly too. I never see CDs in stores as cheap as I can get them in iTunes.

mainstreetmark

May 13, 2004, 04:21 PM

Maybe the extra cost is because they have to pack up all these digital music files and ship them overseas in crates. You guys ever consider that?

nagromme

May 13, 2004, 04:48 PM

shamino

May 13, 2004, 05:09 PM

The question then is, how much to music CDs in stores cost in europe vs. US? $14 is typical where I live for physical CDs. Are CDs in europe frequently over 21 euros?
I don't know about Europe right now, but when I was in England (many years ago), I found that the prices of everything (music inclued) was effectively what you get by swapping a dollar-sign for a pound-sign. Effectively making it all cost 60% more.

When I was there, I bought many CDs from Virgin and HMV (what appear to be list-price stores). I ended up paying the equivalent of about $22-25 each for them. (I'm a Rick Wakeman fan, and most of his stuff isn't available in the US, so I swallowed my pride and paid the insane prices.)

jaredbbauer

May 13, 2004, 05:29 PM

I am with Steve stick it to the europeons =) J/K

Elan0204

May 13, 2004, 05:39 PM

I was recently in Europe and found CDs to be ridiculously expensive. I'm talking in the range of €18-20. Thats between $21.25 and $23.62, and when I was there the dollar was even weaker making those prices even higher. Given those prices, I'm not surprised the price for a music download will be €1.29, actually it seems like a fair deal given the price of music in Europe. You have to remember that sales tax (VAT) in Europe is upwards of (and in some places more than) 20%, and is included in the price of the song. Here in the U.S., 99¢ is before tax, so really a download comes out to $1.07 or so, depending on the state. Given the additional licensing fees, and the general higher cost of music in Europe, and I don't think the price is unreasonable.

iB24

May 13, 2004, 06:16 PM

Here in the U.S., 99¢ is before tax, so really a download comes out to $1.07 or so, depending on the state. Given the additional licensing fees, and the general higher cost of music in Europe, and I don't think the price is unreasonable.

Everytime I buy a song from the iTunes Music Store I don't get charged tax. I live in California and the first time I bought something from the store, I checked my bank account to see the transaction. The pending transaction was like $1.07, but after it went through, it would show up on my statement as $0.99. I suppose people in California don't get charged tax for buying music online?

MrMacMan

May 13, 2004, 06:36 PM

where is
'I don't live in Europe... and NO' option?

Damn YOUUU!

imac_japan

May 13, 2004, 07:00 PM

I am with Steve stick it to the europeons =) J/K

All I can say about this comment is typical American.....Remember England is only one of a few countries where the music business is growing (due to good quality music). Last year, the Record companies made a big profit so its going to be hard for Apple to break into this market.

and Apple just recently had a bit of consumer backlash about the ipod battery issues which went all the way up to the Government and about the ipod prices (which are double). People don't want to pay these prices so they are buying ipods off Ebay in America. Thats gotta hurt Apple in the U.K

Also Remember alot of English people have multiple systems eg: a mac, a playstation, an X-box, etc etc so in truth they spend more on Entertainment than Americans.

Stick it to the Yanks !!

bennok

May 13, 2004, 07:31 PM

I don't live in europe, but I voted no. Why? 'cause it's probably not.

eric_n_dfw

May 13, 2004, 07:47 PM

All I can say about this comment is typical American.....Remember England is only one of a few countries where the music business is growing (due to good quality music). Last year, the Record companies made a big profit so its going to be hard for Apple to break into this market.

and Apple just recently had a bit of consumer backlash about the ipod battery issues which went all the way up to the Government and about the ipod prices (which are double). People don't want to pay these prices so they are buying ipods off Ebay in America. Thats gotta hurt Apple in the U.K

Also Remember alot of English people have multiple systems eg: a mac, a playstation, an X-box, etc etc so in truth they spend more on Entertainment than Americans.

Stick it to the Yanks !!
Typical Japaneese - to not know sarcasim when they hear it. Even when the comment is followed up by "=) J/K"

(btw - that was sarcasim to =)"

edit: Oh - and what's with the comment about the English owning mutli-systems? Like Americans, or people any other nationality for that matter, don't do the same? This American (I guess I'm a Yankee since I was born in Ohio), owns a Mac, PC, GameCube, Dreamcast, PS, Tivo, pinball machine, etc...

Rooey

May 13, 2004, 07:49 PM

macFanDave

May 13, 2004, 11:32 PM

I don't live in Europe, yet I think the price is too high but the Euro price will have no effect on my buying habits.

Of course, maybe the high price in Europe is too pay for that fancy-schmantzy universal health care with the cheap or free prescription drugs. Yep, here in the good ol' U.S. of A., we can risk financial ruin if we have a medical crisis without being insured and we overpay for drugs (even if we are insured), but we can get our music cheaper than them. Nyah-nyah!

And for the person who mentioned allofmp3.com: don't think it is really legal. Just because you are paying a smidge more than the absolute theft sites, doesn't mean it's not just as shady.

PickledSquirrel

May 14, 2004, 01:33 AM

:D

Of course, maybe the high price in Europe is too pay for that fancy-schmantzy universal health care with the cheap or free prescription drugs. Yep, here in the good ol' U.S. of A., we can risk financial ruin if we have a medical crisis without being insured and we overpay for drugs (even if we are insured), but we can get our music cheaper than them. Nyah-nyah!

I wish it was so:) I'm afraid the higher price is paying for fancy-schmantzy bankaccounts in the cayman isles for the top notches in the music industry.(In europe, the actual musicians get less than 4 % of the profit from an album, guess where the rest goes)
Its the 60 % income tax and 25 % VAT that that pays for health care, free roads, free schools, universities and so on. The taxes I find rather a good idea. As for the Music-Industrialists, I hardly feel sorry them bankrupting themselves with lousy music at high prices.
If the price per download resembled the actual cost of distributing music this way; and a decent cut was made out for the artists, heck, I'd be first in line at the portal!

steadyeddie

May 14, 2004, 04:40 AM

But I can legally rip songs from my friends for personal use. Also, allofmp3.com is a much better deal than iTMS, and it's legal. They charge $5 for 500MB, any codec and/or quality you want.

No you can't. Your friends can rip THEIR songs for THEIR personal use, not YOURS. Giving music away to friends is still illegal.

sinbushar

May 14, 2004, 06:12 AM

that was weird...

when i first saw the options i saw

i don't live in europe

to be

i don't BEliEve in europe...which was sketchy as butt...VIVA LA EU...cause i love the european union...

peaccccee ouuttt

-adel

toontra

May 14, 2004, 08:15 AM

I don't live in europe, but I voted no. Why? 'cause it's probably not.

Well that's clever, isn't it!

I happen to have to live in Europe & therefore with the consequences of this pricing.

fixyourthinking

May 14, 2004, 08:17 AM

No you can't. Your friends can rip THEIR songs for THEIR personal use, not YOURS. Giving music away to friends is still illegal.

This is of course your opinion.

If the original source has a legal original - it has YET to be proven in a court that the title can NOT be freely distributed WITHOUT profit or recognition to receive monetary gain.

If someone is selling ripped music (without permission from the content creator) that's entirely different.

Just because you've seen threats from the RIAA and lawsuits flying like Winter - South Canadain Geese means nothing.

And to the person that said tax is charged for iTunes songs - I'm not sure but I know there is an authorization for tax it seems but the amount does clear as 99 cents. I have bought a lot of songs, and I have downloaded a lot through gift certificates and pepsi caps. Tax is NOT paid because I believe it is listed with the IRS as a service and not tangible goods. Only physical tangible goods can be taxed. Sevices/labor is not.

Here's an interesting sidenote from Slashdot this morning:

"Nielsen's Soundscan (Which tracks retail point-of-sale numbers for the music industry) shows a 10% increase in sales from Q1 2003 to Q1 2004. The RIAA has recently reported drops in revenue from last year, citing online piracy as the main problem. The crux of the issue? The RIAA hasn't been talking about sales or revenue in terms of sales to consumers or money generated via those sales. The RIAA talks about losses in terms of number of units shipped to retail outlets. The article points out plenty of problems with this (and reasons why we are seeing the trend), but it is fairly obvious that the RIAA is not reporting the most 'useful' numbers to the public."

fixyourthinking

May 14, 2004, 08:32 AM

Sounds to me like the lables are getting greedy again.

Perhaps they've forgotten why the whole illegal music thing started in the first place? Oh yeah - because they priced themselves out of the market. False promises of 'the prices will go up to cover the inital cost of changing to Tapes/CD's/DVD's - but they'll come down again later' just isn't enough for people anymore.

Paying £5 for a CD Single is complete extortion, £30 for a DVD (when same on VHS is a mere £12.99) go figure.

If the US pays 99c, I expect to pay the equivlent in Euros/Sterling.

*cough* ipods *cough* $299 is NOT the same as £299 *cough*

Piracy has NEVER flourished because retail items were too high. Piracy has existed because ... well ... it does.

Some people WILL NEVER BUY ANYTHING AT RETAIL. I have people that buy from me on eBay THAT NEVER shop at Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA etc etc. I know people that buy all their groceries from local farmers and or the flea market.

Piracy has also existed to fulfill a market need. For instance: I saw The Passion Of The Christ and Kill Bill Volume II on DVD at the local flea market this past weekend. Neither is on video and won't be for several months. Piracy exists here to provide to a market that wants the movie now or didn't want to go and see it in the movie theater. It also exists in this scenario as a profit motivation to the seller. Is it illegal, you bet. Is it there because movie tickets are too high - maybe slightly.

Sonofhaig

May 14, 2004, 08:38 AM

There should be another choice: I do'nt live in Europe, but it's still too expensive! I still think 99¢ is a little high.

wrldwzrd89

May 14, 2004, 09:06 AM

Good point, mainstream!

FYI, MacRumors is reporting that the extra cost is taxes and licensing fees beyond Apple's control. If Apple matched US iTunes prices they'd be taking a massive loss and just giving money to the labels.

On the bright side, supposedly €1.29 includes tax, which the US.99 does not. That brings the prices just SLIGHTLY closer if so.
nagromme's right - the european price includes a whopping 19.6% tax. If I take that into account, the price Apple's asking doesn't seem that bad at all.

shamino

May 14, 2004, 09:13 AM

Everytime I buy a song from the iTunes Music Store I don't get charged tax. I live in California and the first time I bought something from the store, I checked my bank account to see the transaction. The pending transaction was like $1.07, but after it went through, it would show up on my statement as $0.99. I suppose people in California don't get charged tax for buying music online?
Apple may not charge it, but you still owe it. Whenever you purchase anything, you owe sales tax (unless you're purchasing from a state that doesn't have sales tax, like Delaware). Mail-order places are supposed to collect this if they have a point of presence in your state, otherwise it's optional.

If the merchant doesn't collect it, you're on your honor to pay it yourself. Most states have a form as a part of income tax filing where you can report this. Whether you do or not is up to you, your conscience and how much you're afraid of being audited.

I'm very surprised that Apple didn't charge your sales tax if you're in California. They are obligated to, unless music downloads aren't taxable under California's tax code.

shamino

May 14, 2004, 09:20 AM

And to the person that said tax is charged for iTunes songs - I'm not sure but I know there is an authorization for tax it seems but the amount does clear as 99 cents. I have bought a lot of songs, and I have downloaded a lot through gift certificates and pepsi caps. Tax is NOT paid because I believe it is listed with the IRS as a service and not tangible goods. Only physical tangible goods can be taxed. Sevices/labor is not.
Depends on the state in which you live. The IRS (I assume you mean the federal government) has nothing to do with this. The US has no nationwide sales-tax. Sales tax is a function of state law, and every state has its own set of laws regarding what is and is not taxable.
Here's an interesting sidenote from Slashdot this morning:
"Nielsen's Soundscan (Which tracks retail point-of-sale numbers for the music industry) shows a 10% increase in sales from Q1 2003 to Q1 2004. The RIAA has recently reported drops in revenue from last year, citing online piracy as the main problem. The crux of the issue? The RIAA hasn't been talking about sales or revenue in terms of sales to consumers or money generated via those sales. The RIAA talks about losses in terms of number of units shipped to retail outlets. The article points out plenty of problems with this (and reasons why we are seeing the trend), but it is fairly obvious that the RIAA is not reporting the most 'useful' numbers to the public."
Interesting. It looks like they are deliberately excluding legal downloads direct sales (e.g. from BMG and Columbia House), and mail-order purchases from their numbers.

Their screwed-up accounting is showing a loss because people are buying from Amazon instead of their local mall-stores. Obviously so they can keep on suing children, since no judge would allow the lawsuits to go through if the plaintiff couldn't show any losses.

fixyourthinking

May 14, 2004, 09:58 AM

Depends on the state in which you live. The IRS (I assume you mean the federal government) has nothing to do with this. The US has no nationwide sales-tax. Sales tax is a function of state law, and every state has its own set of laws regarding what is and is not taxable.
Interesting. It looks like they are deliberately excluding legal downloads direct sales (e.g. from BMG and Columbia House), and mail-order purchases from their numbers.

Their screwed-up accounting is showing a loss because people are buying from Amazon instead of their local mall-stores. Obviously so they can keep on suing children, since no judge would allow the lawsuits to go through if the plaintiff couldn't show any losses.

Actually the IRS DOES communicate with state revenue departments and in NO state is service taxable (I think that's right) - services and labor (if purchased) is taxed at a federal and state income tax level.

Only tangible goods can be considered taxable.

Download an iTunes song everyone - let's see if we can get a list of states that we are not charged - my bet is that it is all of them.

South Carolina = no tax on iTunes songs.

An authorization goes through for $1.04 but clears as 99 cents on my credit card. Tax is 5% here.

As an Apple Technician I am not suppose to (or allowed) to collect tax on a repair, only on the parts used (if any)

I believe the tangibility of iTunes has been proven by eBay (after being asked by Apple) to end auctions that sell iTunes song collections.

Meaning = I can't resell a song because it wasn't tangible at least as defined by law.

nick8ascot

May 14, 2004, 10:53 AM

EUROPE DOES NOT USE EUROS!!! Only a handful of countries in Europe use EUROS, so the using the word 'Europe' in your poll is spurious. I live in Europe, but we use pounds in England. :eek:

ant_s

May 14, 2004, 10:57 AM

€1.29 is only 87p (US $1.63 at current rates) - which surprises me, as I thought we may end up at paying over £1 per track. Most music download sites in the UK charge about 89p - 99p per track.

So me thinks that's great value - and I live in the UK - and I can't wait for the iTMS to be launched over here!

nick8ascot

May 14, 2004, 11:21 AM

I think the cost will be higher after tax. £0.87 after tax is £1.02, so probably £0.99 is most likely.Even still, I still think that hits the sweet spot. :)

mrsebastian

May 14, 2004, 11:24 AM

it's probably a fair price, considering i have no idea what a cd costs there in the store. it's not like they can't just change the pricing if it is too expensive and nobody's buying from itms europe.

wdlove

May 14, 2004, 11:26 AM

I voted that I don't live in Europe. It seems that from reading the comments, the charge of 1.29 Euros may not be unreasonable. Has to do with the tax rate and other regulations! :(

cc bcc

May 14, 2004, 02:36 PM

No you can't. Your friends can rip THEIR songs for THEIR personal use, not YOURS. Giving music away to friends is still illegal.

yes I can :) Dutch law says so.

solvs

May 14, 2004, 10:56 PM

Tax Questions

Applicable sales tax is charged for music download purchases where required by local law. The estimated tax noted on your Music Store invoice is estimated and may not reflect actual charges. When this page was last updated, the following states charged tax on music downloads: AL, AZ, CO, CT (1%), DC, HI, ID, IN, LA, ME, NM, ND, SD, TN, TX, UT, and WA.

fixyourthinking

May 14, 2004, 11:09 PM

Counterfit

May 15, 2004, 01:29 AM

Thanks for posting the information - now - the people in these staes should be very upset - they are being taxed for a service. Well, if you really get down to it, you bought a sequence of electrons from Apple. Tangible, but just barely :p

maradong

May 15, 2004, 04:02 AM

Good point, mainstream!

FYI, MacRumors is reporting that the extra cost is taxes and licensing fees beyond Apple's control. If Apple matched US iTunes prices they'd be taking a massive loss and just giving money to the labels.

On the bright side, supposedly €1.29 includes tax, which the US.99 does not. That brings the prices just SLIGHTLY closer if so.

Look,
the € is about 20% higher than the $.
i don't know about the VAT in the US, but here in luxembourg it s 15%. those 15 % & the exchange rate will bring us to the same pricing than in the us.

but i get more and more frustratred at the apple pricing sheme over here in europe. Everything is just so expensive compared to the prices in the us.

Savage Henry

May 15, 2004, 02:28 PM

Man, it really has surprised me the number of people who won't buy any songs.

I think they lie; they'll succumb. :D

Steradian

May 16, 2004, 08:37 PM

too high, should be 1 Euro, the Euro is worth more than the dollar, and the dollar is still a little pricy.

amnesiac1984

May 17, 2004, 08:00 AM

I don't think I will buy many songs from iTMS, I like having CD's and most of the music I like isn't on there. Although I am happy with AAC I still eagerly await the next level in quality as I can still tell the difference between CDs and AAC even at high bit rates and on my headphones (shure e2c) with my ipod.

Whoever said they buy their music from play.com, don't, there is a reason that it is so cheap. Every CD I've seen bought from them was copy protected which makes it useless for us iPodders!

shamino

May 17, 2004, 11:25 AM

Look,
the € is about 20% higher than the $.
i don't know about the VAT in the US, but here in luxembourg it s 15%. those 15 % & the exchange rate will bring us to the same pricing than in the us.
The US has no VAT, but Congress suggests it every few years. I'm sure that they'll eventually manage to trick the population into wanting it, though. They're always on the lookout for new ways to confiscate the people's money. (They claim they will use the money from a VAT to lower income tax rates. I don't believe this for a second. In reality, the income tax rates will remain where they are and we'll all just get stuck adding 20% to the price of everything we buy.)

For now, the nearest equivalent in the US is a "sales tax". This tax is imposed by the individual states, not by the federal government. Every state sets its own rate an decides what items are and are not taxable. Some counties and cities also impose sales tax, although most don't. The typical sales tax seems to be between 5-7%, with significant variation. (For instance, Delaware has no sales tax, while you'll pay 10% sales tax at a restaurant in Washington DC.)

plumers

Jun 17, 2004, 10:45 PM

How much is it in US Dollar. In US it's only 99 cents. I think itunes Europe version have to pay more for the license, copyright and stuff like that so it's kind of reasonable by law but still costly anyway. Is it including tax or not, in US 99 cents plus tax, so it's about 1.49 each.

g4cubed

Jun 18, 2004, 08:34 AM

Of course, maybe the high price in Europe is too pay for that fancy-schmantzy universal health care with the cheap or free prescription drugs. Yep, here in the good ol' U.S. of A., we can risk financial ruin if we have a medical crisis without being insured and we overpay for drugs (even if we are insured), but we can get our music cheaper than them. Nyah-nyah!

Thank God, for a minute there I thought we had our priorities in the wrong place. :D