Current situation: Iraq

[Frohickey]

Just another Iraqi blog (http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/) to counter the doom 'n gloom from the major media.

=====

Ibrahim and the dark future.
Last Friday my oldest uncle, along with his 16-year-old son, visited us, as he used to do this once every month. My uncle is a high school manager and a history teacher at the same time in the same school. I saw that he was wearing a nice suit that I had not seen him wearing before. I said "Nice suit uncle. Is it new?" He said "Yes, I bought it about a month ago". "It must be expensive" I asked and he replied, "Yes it is, but your uncle now can afford it".

Some of the readers may remember me saying something about my uncle. Before the war he was in the same job and he was paid about 15 thousands Iraqi Dinars that was equal to about 7 US$ a month. His wife, who is also a teacher, was paid a little less than that. He has 5 children; one in primary school three in high school and a girl in college. Of course that salary couldn’t help him support his family, yet he didn’t quit it. He always hoped that things would change for the better. In order to meet life's requirements and offer his kids a proper education, he had to work after school. He worked in every kind of business; a taxi driver, a grocer and opened a small shop for a while, but things didn’t go quite well.

<snip>

The bottom line, and to talk more seriously, is that the picture the media are giving us about Iraq is almost convincing, even to me, if it wasn’t for this insignificant detail, and something must be done to make it right before most Iraqis start to realize that! But to be fair our Arab and Muslim brothers, supported by the legitimate Arab leaders and cheered by most of the major media are aware of that, and of the dangers of the vicious cycle of (prosperity-stability-more prosperity-more stability) that the Americans and the Iraqi traitors (like myself) are trying to establish. They (our brothers) are doing all that they can; bombing oil pipelines and ports, beheading foreigners in the name of Iraqis and Allah, attacking electricity stations, creating chaos that allows thieves to loot everything they can, yet it’s still not working!! The Iraqi Dinar stands stable despite the fact that some Arab governments formally warned their citizens from dealing with it, the oil production is increasing, the markets are full of goods, most Iraqis are busy working, studying selling and buying and the average income is rising!
Please, all those who care about the poor Iraqis and want to save them from the brutality of the American invaders and who want to prevent the Americans from stealing our fortune; meaning Bin laden, Zagrawi and their followers, Arab and Muslim tyrants, our good friend monsieur Dominique de Villepin, all the pacifists of the world, the major media, and in short, all those who hate America and obviously love Iraq: Get your ****** together and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT or else one or two years from now Iraq will be…a prosperous country, and then we will never forgive you for letting us down when we needed you!
Besides, how would you face us if my cousin got a car and had an accident?!

=====

Hearts and minds... hearts and minds or was that hearts and clovers, or was it diamonds. :D

[Squire]

I'm not a moderator, but political topics are generally kept in the political forum. Here's the link:

http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47

Squire

[blackfox]

Yes, this needs to go to the poliical forum ASAP...then I might comment...

[floatingspirit]

How anyone could put a smiley face in the title is BEYOND me! :eek: :confused:

[Chip NoVaMac]

The thing that I noted is that they are using a blogging service. One has to take what they see on the net with a very large grain of salt.

[IJ Reilly]

If anyone knows this belonged in the Political form, it's Frohickey. What was he trying to accomplish by posting it elsewhere, I wonder?

[Ugg]

I went to the site and started reading, the bit about how Abu Ghraib is so much better now than it was during SH's time was sickening. Although the 3 contributors to the blog claim to be dentists, there's no doubt in my mind that it is pure propaganda. The american english writing along with the claims that most people are working and are happy leaves no doubt in my mind that this blog is an organ of the US propaganda machine.

I read a number of Iraqi blogs, some pro-American and some anti, but this one tries to gloss over the atrocities being committed by the US.

If people use this blog to back up American claims that all is rosy in Iraq then they are being deluded.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I went to the site and started reading, the bit about how Abu Ghraib is so much better now than it was during SH's time was sickening. Although the 3 contributors to the blog claim to be dentists, there's no doubt in my mind that it is pure propaganda. The american english writing along with the claims that most people are working and are happy leaves no doubt in my mind that this blog is an organ of the US propaganda machine.

I read a number of Iraqi blogs, some pro-American and some anti, but this one tries to gloss over the atrocities being committed by the US.

If people use this blog to back up American claims that all is rosy in Iraq then they are being deluded.

The unfortunate thing is that people will for the most part want to believe in only what they want to believe.

Also remember history is written by the victors. And for me that means writing history for the future (the WMD argument), current (that the effort is going well, and the Iraqi people are better off), and what will actually be in the history books.

[Frohickey]

Apologies for putting the thread into Current Events. I had just thought that it was appropriate since it was a bloggers' view into what is happening in his country, and there were no US political parties or politicians involved.

The few Iraqi blogs that I have seen are written by Zeyad, the dentist, and there is this recent one who is a doctor. Pretty enlightening if you ask me since they are presenting another viewpoint that we seldom see from the mainstream media outlets.

Now, if we can find an Iraqi engineer blog, that would be great. :D

Now, if they only had a webcam, that would be awesome. A web remote controlled webcam, via a USB link. Hmm... I wonder if the fruit company can come up with something like that. They already have the iSight out.

[Neserk]

That has to be the strangest little excerpt I've ever heard... and most definately a political piece. Me thinks someone wanted to post it where people wouldn't see it for what it was and wanted them to be all happy about the US occupation of Iraq...

[Frohickey]

That has to be the strangest little excerpt I've ever heard... and most definately a political piece. Me thinks someone wanted to post it where people wouldn't see it for what it was and wanted them to be all happy about the US occupation of Iraq...

Only if you consider the reporting of an Iraqi-on-the-street as political news. Yes, the blog might be considered reporting of good news coming out of Iraq, but this should be considered as a counterpoint to the bad news coming out of Iraq. Would you consider the bad news coming out of Iraq as solely political, instead of current events?

Was Somalia, Kosovo, and other use of the military considered 'political'?

[Neserk]

Only if you consider the reporting of an Iraqi-on-the-street as political news. Yes, the blog might be considered reporting of good news coming out of Iraq, but this should be considered as a counterpoint to the bad news coming out of Iraq. Would you consider the bad news coming out of Iraq as solely political, instead of current events?

Was Somalia, Kosovo, and other use of the military considered 'political'?


Its annecdotal leaving its value minimal... and I've no reason to believe it is true. As for your last statement... what the hell are you talking about? I don't see its relevence to the conversation or to Iraq.

[pseudobrit]

I was in Baghdad the other day. Wonderful place. They love America there; don't believe what you hear. Honest. I was.

If I believed everything I read on the internet, I'd be one dumb sonofabitch.

[Neserk]

I was in Baghdad the other day. Wonderful place. They love America there; don't believe what you hear. Honest. I was.

If I believed everything I read on the internet, I'd be one dumb sonofabitch.

LOL... that illlustrates my point beautifully! Thanks :D

[Frohickey]

Its annecdotal leaving its value minimal... and I've no reason to believe it is true. As for your last statement... what the hell are you talking about? I don't see its relevence to the conversation or to Iraq.

If you contend that news of Iraq, good or bad, are political topics, then Somalia/Kosovo news, good or bad, were political topics as well at the time.

But, in the end, if your sentiment...
...and I've no reason to believe it is true.
speaks volumes as to the state of your mind and its openness to new information. :eek:

[pseudobrit]

speaks volumes as to the state of your mind and its openness to new information. :eek:

Oh Jesus, it's a blog for feck's sake!!

I put about as much time and trust in a blogger's innane ramblings as I do equal-quality printed sources like the Weekly World News.

Which is none. At least with the WWN you can wipe yer arse with the pages. Though I'd be concerned of the **** that's already on the (web)page.

[blackfox]

But, in the end, if your sentiment...

speaks volumes as to the state of your mind and its openness to new information. :eek:
It's called cynicism, or the fact that it is not quite as trustworthy as the NYT or CNN, as generally they are required to verify their facts, as is both expected by the populace, and to protect themselves from libel...internet blogs do not have the same scrutiny put upon them...as far as the original topic of this thread, assuming for a moment that the quote/blog is factual...what does this mean? This does nothing to erase all of the horrible things that have been verifiably happening over there. I am not so jaded as to think that nothing positive has been accomplished in Iraq since the fall of Hussein, but in perspective, it pales in comparison to that which has gone wrong both in scope, seriousness and incidence. It is analgous to losing your house, your job, your girlfriend and your savings, but learning that your favorite bar is extending their happy hour next month. Day late, dollar short...

[mactastic]

Was Somalia, Kosovo, and other use of the military considered 'political'?

Would you like to see some of the news reports from back then, or are you so uninformed that you really don't know the answer to your question?

If you are, just look up some of Tom DeLay's statements about the use of troops in Kosovo, or do a Google search for 'Kosovo' and 'Clinton' and 'wag the dog allegations'.

speaks volumes as to the state of your mind and its openness to new information.

Which speaks volumes as to your state of mind and it's lack of a critical-thinking bone. When you see a new source of information on the internet, do you assume it's true? Or do you assume it's true only if it agrees with you and/or bashes liberals? Did you fail Critical Thought 101? :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: :mad:

[IJ Reilly]

It's the short memory syndrome. Only remember the things you want to remember.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200405030001

[Neserk]

It's called cynicism, or the fact that it is not quite as trustworthy as the NYT or CNN, as generally they are required to verify their facts, as is both expected by the populace, and to protect themselves from libel...internet blogs do not have the same scrutiny put upon them...as far as the original topic of this thread, assuming for a moment that the quote/blog is factual...what does this mean? This does nothing to erase all of the horrible things that have been verifiably happening over there. I am not so jaded as to think that nothing positive has been accomplished in Iraq since the fall of Hussein, but in perspective, it pales in comparison to that which has gone wrong both in scope, seriousness and incidence. It is analgous to losing your house, your job, your girlfriend and your savings, but learning that your favorite bar is extending their happy hour next month. Day late, dollar short...

What he said. Thanks!

[Frohickey]

Which speaks volumes as to your state of mind and it's lack of a critical-thinking bone. When you see a new source of information on the internet, do you assume it's true? Or do you assume it's true only if it agrees with you and/or bashes liberals? Did you fail Critical Thought 101? :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: :mad:

Nope, passed that with flying colors. As well as Reading Comprehension 101. :p

Its a blog. Its apolitical. Its written by a person that is experiencing it, not a journalist that is paid to go get a particular story. Add this to the stories presented to us by paid journalists and you get a different picture of what is happening in that corner of the globe. Its another data point to add to the existing data points presented by the paid journalist and mass media.

More data is good.

[Ugg]

Its a blog. Its apolitical. Its written by a person that is experiencing it, not a journalist that is paid to go get a particular story. Add this to the stories presented to us by paid journalists and you get a different picture of what is happening in that corner of the globe. Its another data point to add to the existing data points presented by the paid journalist and mass media.

More data is good.

That's like saying Macrumours is apolitical because the majority of it is devoted to Macs. Everything is political in some way shape or form. This blog is so clearly pro-American that it is very questionable and I seriously doubt that it is being done simply for the fun of it. My guess is that it is funded by the US or CPA or whatever.

This is not a different picture at all, what it is is a higly edited version of what is happening in Iraq today.

If you want to get a better idea of what is going on there, I recommend:

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ This by a young woman who is eloquent in her disgust at both the militia and the US. She praises what goes right but due to the effed up situation must spend most of her time at home simply because Baghdad is too unsafe for her.

http://www.dearraed.blogspot.com/ This by Salam Pax, who also writes a column for The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/) . His writing is lighthearted and a good read but between the lines it is obvious that he is very concerned for his country now that the US is determined to put it back into the middle ages.

More data is good but unless one sifts through it with a critical eye then what's the point?

[blackfox]

Its a blog. Its apolitical. SNIP
Definition:Political

1. [adj] involving or characteristic of politics or parties or politicians; "calling a meeting is a political act in itself"- Daniel Goleman; "political pressure"; "a political machine"; "political office"; "political policy"
2. [adj] of or relating to your views about social relationships involving authority or power; "political opinions"
3. [adj] of or relating to the profession of governing; "political career"

As you can see, it is not apolitical...it is fine if you want to present an alternative viewpoint...but have the decency to admit what it is...

[DGFan]

It's the short memory syndrome. Only remember the things you want to remember.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200405030001

What amazes me is that Howard Stern gets fined for "indecency" but people like Rush and Savage say the things they do with nary a word from the FCC.

[Frohickey]

If you want to get a better idea of what is going on there, I recommend:

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ This by a young woman who is eloquent in her disgust at both the militia and the US. She praises what goes right but due to the effed up situation must spend most of her time at home simply because Baghdad is too unsafe for her.

http://www.dearraed.blogspot.com/ This by Salam Pax, who also writes a column for The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/) . His writing is lighthearted and a good read but between the lines it is obvious that he is very concerned for his country now that the US is determined to put it back into the middle ages.


Yep. Read those already.

[IJ Reilly]

What amazes me is that Howard Stern gets fined for "indecency" but people like Rush and Savage say the things they do with nary a word from the FCC.

True story. It's politically incorrect to utter four-letter Anglo Saxons on the air, but you can sure get away with a lot of hate.

[Neserk]

Yep. Read those already.

Why didn't you post them? Gee.. I just couldn't even guess... :rolleyes:

[Voltron]

Ok who was it that stated something about expectations and not being allowed to practice free speech in the stands of football games or whatnot by showing the F word on t-shirts and shooting birds at the tv camera? Remember that thread I brought up about how that ESPN was installing a delay on all shows even college games so as to insure college students shouting in the stands couldn't be heard over the camera mics. I mean common if this stuff is wrong so is what Howard Stern does on the radio.

Personally I think they should get rid of the law that outlaws certain words simply because English majors don't like them. Or I should say simply because we were programmed by our mommies who were programmed by their mommies on up 100's of generations to not like certain words.

[takao]

Ok who was it that stated something about expectations and not being allowed to practice free speech in the stands of football games or whatnot by showing the F word on t-shirts and shooting birds at the tv camera? Remember that thread I brought up about how that ESPN was installing a delay on all shows even college games so as to insure college students shouting in the stands couldn't be heard over the camera mics. I mean common if this stuff is wrong so is what Howard Stern does on the radio.

Personally I think they should get rid of the law that outlaws certain words simply because English majors don't like them.

i agree with you about this football/t-shirt stuff but free speech has still to be monitored/watched especially when it gets into racist/hatred speech without arguments on the political sector

in germany/austria things like 'glorification of the third reich','holocaust denial' are _banned_ ... and groups which perform hatred speech,religouis/ethnic racism etc. are watched by the police institutions(which jobs are "constitution protection" )...when you go to far in these things prepare for a visit...

there _have to be_ limits to free speech

[Frohickey]

Why didn't you post them? Gee.. I just couldn't even guess... :rolleyes:

because I was posting excerpts of one blog, which was new to me. I read the other blogs as well, and they are on my bookmarks already.

[numediaman]

Let's hope this story turns out to be untrue, or exaggerated. But it doesn't look good.

U.S. attack said to kill scores at Iraq wedding
Celebrants reportedly were firing weapons into the air

BREAKING NEWS
The Associated Press
Updated: 1:52 p.m.ET May19, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people were killed in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said the dead included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

The Dubai-based Al Arabiya television reported that more than 20 were killed and 10 injured in the attack, but provided no further details.

Videotape shows bodies on truck

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of people who were allegedly killed in the incident. Most of the bodies were wrapped in blankets and other cloths, but the footage showed at least eight uncovered, bloody bodies, several of them children. One of the children was headless.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers were firing in the air in traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman wrote in an e-mail in response to a question about the incident from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

The APTN footage showed the truck of bodies and mourners with shovels digging graves over a wide, dusty area in Ramadi, a stronghold of insurgents who are fighting the U.S.-led coalition. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Celebrants fired guns in air, official says

Al-Ani said people at the wedding were firing weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and then left. However, he said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m.

Two houses were destroyed in the attack, he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5013551/

[Chip NoVaMac]

I understand the need to protect your forces, but how is going to help win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people?

[numediaman]

The latest on the attack that was claimed to be a wedding party . . .

U.S. military claims it deliberately attacked "fighters". i hope they are right because I am damn tired to all the lies.

Pentagon says it attacked fighters -- not wedding

Witnesses say Iraqi wedding attacked near Syria

Wednesday, May 19, 2004 Posted: 4:21 PM EDT (2021 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Pentagon officials Wednesday denied alleged eyewitness reports of a U.S. attack on a wedding party in a remote area of western Iraq that killed innocent civilians.

"Our report is that this was not a wedding party, that these were anti-coalition forces that fired first, and that U.S. troops returned fire, destroying several vehicles, and killing a number of them," a Pentagon spokesman said.

He was responding to a video distributed by The Associated Press showing Iraqi witnesses who said that at least 20 people were killed and five others critically wounded early Wednesday when planes fired on a wedding celebration.

A man on the video said all homes in the village near the Syrian border were destroyed in the attack at about 3 a.m. local time Wednesday.

The video showed at least a dozen bodies, including small children, wrapped in blankets for burial as they were unloaded from a truck.

Men with picks and shovels were digging a series of graves in the video.

A senior military coalition official said as many as 40 people were killed in the attack, but said it was his belief that the attack was against a foreign fighters' safe house.

A coalition official said in a written statement that coalition forces conducted a military operation "against a suspected foreign fighter's safe house in the open desert, 85 km southwest of Husaybah, and 25 km from the Syrian border.

"During the operation, coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided.

"Coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio," the statement said.

Asked if the incident was the same one described on videotape, he said, "Yes, it is the same incident."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html

[Chip NoVaMac]

The latest on the attack that was claimed to be a wedding party . . .

U.S. military claims it deliberately attacked "fighters". i hope they are right because I am damn tired to all the lies.

Pentagon says it attacked fighters -- not wedding

Witnesses say Iraqi wedding attacked near Syria

Wednesday, May 19, 2004 Posted: 4:21 PM EDT (2021 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Pentagon officials Wednesday denied alleged eyewitness reports of a U.S. attack on a wedding party in a remote area of western Iraq that killed innocent civilians.

"Our report is that this was not a wedding party, that these were anti-coalition forces that fired first, and that U.S. troops returned fire, destroying several vehicles, and killing a number of them," a Pentagon spokesman said.

He was responding to a video distributed by The Associated Press showing Iraqi witnesses who said that at least 20 people were killed and five others critically wounded early Wednesday when planes fired on a wedding celebration.

A man on the video said all homes in the village near the Syrian border were destroyed in the attack at about 3 a.m. local time Wednesday.

The video showed at least a dozen bodies, including small children, wrapped in blankets for burial as they were unloaded from a truck.

Men with picks and shovels were digging a series of graves in the video.

A senior military coalition official said as many as 40 people were killed in the attack, but said it was his belief that the attack was against a foreign fighters' safe house.

A coalition official said in a written statement that coalition forces conducted a military operation "against a suspected foreign fighter's safe house in the open desert, 85 km southwest of Husaybah, and 25 km from the Syrian border.

"During the operation, coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided.

"Coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio," the statement said.

Asked if the incident was the same one described on videotape, he said, "Yes, it is the same incident."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html

Yeah and there were no abuses in the Iraqi prisons....

[Voltron]

A wedding party next to the Syria, Iraq border doesn't sound true to me.
Next to any border with a potential enemy on the other side wouldn't sound true to me.

[skunk]

A wedding party next to the Syria, Iraq border doesn't sound true to me.
Next to any border with a potential enemy on the other side wouldn't sound true to me.
As I have pointed out in another thread, in tribal societies national borders often do not coincide with tribal borders. If they live there, where else would they have the party? Is the fact that they live there (and probably have for the last 10,000 years) a good enough reason to "haze" forty or more people to death?

[Voltron]

As I have pointed out in another thread, in tribal societies national borders often do not coincide with tribal borders. If they live there, where else would they have the party? Is the fact that they live there (and probably have for the last 10,000 years) a good enough reason to "haze" forty or more people to death?
Sounds like a good cover for weapon smugglers to me.

[Voltron]

A WEDDING PARTY? YEAH, SURE IT WAS.

Splashed all over the front pages of everywhere is this lead story: United States bombs Iraqi wedding and kills 40 people, including women and children. Yup...those evil Americans are at it again! The clear insinuation is that the United States goes around bombing civilians on purpose. The mainstream media tilts so far to the left, you have to watch the news on an incline sometimes. It's ridiculous.

So what really happened? As always with stories like this, there are two versions: the anti-American, left-wing biased media's account, and what the Pentagon says happened. What's being reported is that the United States Army, out of the blue, went to a wedding party with helicopters and slaughtered 40 civilians, including women and children (they add that for effect, of course.) The Pentagon says hey, wait a minute, we destroyed a safe house for foreign fighters. A coalition official says a military operation was conducted, the troops came under fire, and they called in close air support and blew the place up.

The official said forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio. What is he talking about? Those sounds like ordinary wedding gifts to me! He added: "It is not our belief that there was a wedding party in the open desert." Of course, tell that to the media, who can't stop running the bleeding-heart images of people digging graves and burying their dead.

The United States Military is guilty until proven innocent. If they turn out to be right (and it looks like they are,) there will not be the same fervor dedicated to getting the story right as there was to getting it wrong (unless you watch Fox News Channel.)

When it comes to war reporting, the mainstream media gives yellow journalism a bad name.

What are the terrorists going to say? Are they going to issue a release stating their anger at the US military knocking out one of the safe houses, and killing about 20 terrorists in the process? Somehow, I rather doubt it.

Here's a hint for future Iraqi weddings. Don't have your wedding parties near encampments of terrorist insurgents.


http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
Oops I got my news from Boortz again so it doesn't count right?

[Voltron]

The apparent weapon was sarin gas, a highly toxic nerve agent that causes victims to choke to death. Developed by the Nazis, it has been used in the past by terrorists in Japan to kill a dozen subway riders and panic thousands, and by Saddam Hussein, who produced tons of it to kill Iraqi Kurds.

Rigged as an "improvised explosive device," or roadside bomb, the 155-millimeter howitzer shell was accidentally detonated by a U.S. ordnance team. Two men were treated for what an Army spokesman called "minor exposure" to the nerve gas.

You never saw such a rush to dismiss this as not news. U.N. weapons inspectors whose reputations rest on denial of Saddam's W.M.D. pooh-poohed the report. "It doesn't strike me as a big deal," said David Kay.

"Sarin Bomb Is Likely a Leftover From the 80's" was USA Today's Page 10 brushoff; maybe the terrorists didn't know their shell was loaded with sarin. Besides, say our lionized apostles of defeat, a poison-gas bomb does not a "stockpile" make. Even the Defense Department, on the defensive, strained not to appear alarmist, saying confirmation was needed for the field tests.

In this rush to misjudgment, we can see an example of the "Four Noes" that have become the defeatists' platform.

The first "no" is no stockpiles of W.M.D., used to justify the war, were found. With the qualifier "so far" left out, the absence of evidence is taken to be evidence of absence. In weeks or years to come — when the pendulum has swung, and it becomes newsworthy to show how cut-and-runners in 2004 were mistaken — logic suggests we will see a rash of articles and blockbuster books to that end.

These may well reveal the successful concealment of W.M.D., as well as prewar shipments thereof to Syria and plans for production and missile delivery, by Saddam's Special Republican Guard and fedayeen, as part of his planned guerrilla war — the grandmother of all battles. The present story line of "Saddam was stupid, fooled by his generals" would then be replaced by "Saddam was shrewder than we thought."

This will be especially true for bacteriological weapons, which are small and easier to hide. In a sovereign and free Iraq, when germ-warfare scientists are fearful of being tried as prewar criminals, their impetus will be to sing — and point to caches of anthrax and other mass killers.

Defeatism's second "no" is no connection was made between Saddam and Al Qaeda or any of its terrorist affiliates. This is asserted as revealed truth with great fervor, despite an extensive listing of communications and meetings between Iraqi officials and terrorists submitted to Congress months ago.

Most damning is the rise to terror's top rank of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who escaped Afghanistan to receive medical treatment in Baghdad. He joined Ansar al-Islam, a Qaeda offshoot whose presence in Iraq to murder Kurds at Saddam's behest was noted in this space in the weeks after 9/11. His activity in Iraq was cited by President Bush six months before our invasion. Osama's disciple Zarqawi is now thought to be the televised beheader of a captive American.

The third "no" is no human-rights high ground can be claimed by us regarding Saddam's torture chambers because we mistreated Iraqi prisoners. This equates sleep deprivation with life deprivation, illegal individual humiliation with official mass murder. We flagellate ourselves for mistreatment by a few of our guards, who will be punished; he delightedly oversaw the shoveling of 300,000 innocent Iraqis into unmarked graves. Iraqis know the difference.

The fourth "no" is no Arab nation is culturally ready for political freedom and our attempt to impose democracy in Iraq is arrogant Wilsonian idealism.

In coming years, this will be blasted by revisionist reportage as an ignoble ethnic-racist slur. Iraqis will gain the power, with our help, to put down the terrorists and find their own brand of political equilibrium.

Will today's defeatists then admit they were wrong? That's a fifth "no."


eek can you believe this came from http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/19/opinion/19SAFI.html

[skunk]

eek can you believe this came from http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/19/opinion/19SAFI.html
Yes. It's called "opinion". It's also callous, inhumane, uninformed, racist, abusive and trite, all at the same time. Can't you wean yourself off these rabid posts?

Have you any idea what 2 million Iraqi dinars are worth? Have you any idea how many Iraqis own guns? Have you any ideas at all?

[numediaman]

Yes. It's called "opinion". It's also callous, inhumane, uninformed, racist, abusive and trite, all at the same time. Can't you wean yourself off these rabid posts?

Have you any idea what 2 million Iraqi dinars are worth? Have you any idea how many Iraqis own guns? Have you any ideas at all?

This was Josh Marshall's (Talking Points Memo) take on the Safire column:

Frequently, when I read a column by Bill Safire, I have to think to myself: who was the editor on this piece? And what must he or she have thought when they were editing this stuff? Read the man's column for Wednesday's paper and it has about as much coherence and rationality as one of your more loopy C-Span ranters just before Brian Lamb mercifully hits the button and sends him off into telephonic oblivion.

This piece is such a clotted mix of discredited ridiculousness, slurs, false claims of racism, disinformation and lies that it's hard to know where to start . . .

[skunk]

This was Josh Marshall's (Talking Points Memo) take on the Safire column:

Frequently, when I read a column by Bill Safire, I have to think to myself: who was the editor on this piece? And what must he or she have thought when they were editing this stuff? Read the man's column for Wednesday's paper and it has about as much coherence and rationality as one of your more loopy C-Span ranters just before Brian Lamb mercifully hits the button and sends him off into telephonic oblivion.

This piece is such a clotted mix of discredited ridiculousness, slurs, false claims of racism, disinformation and lies that it's hard to know where to start . . .
He really is poisonous, isn't he?

[mactastic]

Oops I got my news from Boortz again so it doesn't count right?

Would you count news I posted from the World Socialist Network's web site as truth? Or would you dismiss it as 'biased'?

[skunk]

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
Oops I got my news from Boortz again so it doesn't count right?
You don't get news from boortz.

[Voltron]

Yes. It's called "opinion". It's also callous, inhumane, uninformed, racist, abusive and trite, all at the same time. Can't you wean yourself off these rabid posts?

Have you any idea what 2 million Iraqi dinars are worth? Have you any idea how many Iraqis own guns? Have you any ideas at all?
I didn't realize ordinary Syrians walked around with Sat radios.

[numediaman]

Here is an entertaining little conversation from last year's May-June issue of Foreign Policy. The Bush administration's chief advocate for the Iraq War, Richard Perle, talks to Daniel Cohn-Bendit (who is a very interest chap in his own right):

Foreign Policy May-June 2003

Perle: You are imagining a U.S. general riding roughshod over Iraqis and confirming the worst fears of Muslims around the world that we are an aggressive, imperialist power. I have another view. We have Ahmed Chalabi, chief of the opposition Iraqi National Congress, to enter Baghdad. Ending the current Iraqi regime will liberate the Iraqis. We will leave both governance and oil in their hands. We will hand over power quickly—not in years, maybe not even in months—to give Iraqis a chance to shape their own destiny. The whole world will see this. And I expect the Iraqis to be at least as thankful as French President Jacques Chirac was for France’s liberation.

Cohn-Bendit: Oh, come on. It’s not true

Later:
Perle: If my prediction—that everything will go well with Iraq—becomes reality, then the damage recently done to trans-Atlantic relations will rapidly be repaired. We will still have the problem of French ambitions to build a Europe in opposition to the United States. And if the French are indeed creating a counterweight, do not call their relationship with the United States an alliance anymore. In that case we, as Americans, will have to consider how we deal with this European departure from the trans-Atlantic axis.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_mayjune_2003/debate.html

[skunk]

I didn't realize ordinary Syrians walked around with Sat radios.
Why wouldn't a person living in the middle of the desert have one? What's he supposed to use? Carrier pigeons? And who said he's Syrian??

[IJ Reilly]

Interesting. This "Perle of wisdom" caught my eye: "Democracies do not wage aggressive wars."

Uh huh. And a country that does wage an aggressive war, what's that called?

I guess we can see pretty clearly now how much of the Bush Doctrine is based on pure wishful thinking.

[Frohickey]

Interesting. This "Perle of wisdom" caught my eye: "Democracies do not wage aggressive wars."

Uh huh. And a country that does wage an aggressive war, what's that called?

I guess we can see pretty clearly now how much of the Bush Doctrine is based on pure wishful thinking.

Um... I'm sure that the Confederate South did not see it that way. What did they call it... The War of Northern Agression.

[skunk]

Um... I'm sure that the Confederate South did not see it that way. What did they call it... The War of Northern Agression.??? :confused: Have we skipped a page?

[poopyhead]

Um... I'm sure that the Confederate South did not see it that way. What did they call it... The War of Northern Agression.

well number 1 the civil war south was much closer to an aristocracy than a democracy
secondly the south seceded peaceably (based on a widely held constitutional interpretation of the fundamental question of states rights), the north fought to restore the union
hence the war of northern aggression

[Frohickey]

??? :confused: Have we skipped a page?

Follow closely next time. The question/statement was that democracies do not wage aggressive wars. But the United States in the 1860s did, against the Southern Secessionist states during our Civil War. So, it is not unheard of to wage aggressive wars.

The one thing that democracies do not do, at least in principle is it cannot fight unpopular war, unpopular to the voters, I mean. By voters, I mean our representatives in Congress since they are the ones that would be the ones voting for declaring war.

[poopyhead]

Follow closely next time. The question/statement was that democracies do not wage aggressive wars. But the United States in the 1860s did, against the Southern Secessionist states during our Civil War. So, it is not unheard of to wage aggressive wars.
.

I apparently misunderstood as well, thought you were talking bout the south
sorry

[skunk]

Follow closely next time. The question/statement was that democracies do not wage aggressive wars. But the United States in the 1860s did, against the Southern Secessionist states during our Civil War. So, it is not unheard of to wage aggressive wars.
I WAS following closely. I could have sworn there was some IRONY in the post you were quoting. After all, Germany was a democracy, too.

The one thing that democracies do not do, at least in principle is it cannot fight unpopular war, unpopular to the voters, I mean. By voters, I mean our representatives in Congress since they are the ones that would be the ones voting for declaring war.
Your supine members of Congress were duped and mostly too frightened to be called unpatriotic. You may have noticed that war was not declared. And it's four years before the real voters can express themselves, plenty of time to have an adventure or two.

[Frohickey]

I WAS following closely. I could have sworn there was some IRONY in the post you were quoting. After all, Germany was a democracy, too.

Your supine members of Congress were duped and mostly too frightened to be called unpatriotic. You may have noticed that war was not declared. And it's four years before the real voters can express themselves, plenty of time to have an adventure or two.

It was? Maybe in name only. Chancellor Hitler called all the shots.

Yes, they did not declare war. Must be something in the Washington DC water supply that dissolves the backbone of politicians.

[pseudobrit]

It was? Maybe in name only. Chancellor Hitler called all the shots.

And he was appointed by the elected President as per German law. It was hardly "a democracy in name only" until quite some time after Hitler was appointed. Up until then it was a functioning representative democracy.

Everything he did was technically by the book, not unlike how our current administration runs.

[numediaman]

'US soldiers started to shoot us, one by one'

Survivors describe wedding massacre as generals refuse to apologise

Rory McCarthy in Ramadi
Friday May 21, 2004
The Guardian

The wedding feast was finished and the women had just led the young bride and groom away to their marriage tent for the night when Haleema Shihab heard the first sounds of the fighter jets screeching through the sky above.

It was 10.30pm in the remote village of Mukaradeeb by the Syrian border and the guests hurried back to their homes as the party ended. As sister-in-law of the groom, Mrs Shihab, 30, was to sleep with her husband and children in the house of the wedding party, the Rakat family villa. She was one of the few in the house who survived the night.

"The bombing started at 3am," she said yesterday from her bed in the emergency ward at Ramadi general hospital, 60 miles west of Baghdad. "We went out of the house and the American soldiers started to shoot us. They were shooting low on the ground and targeting us one by one," she said. She ran with her youngest child in her arms and her two young boys, Ali and Hamza, close behind. As she crossed the fields a shell exploded close to her, fracturing her legs and knocking her to the ground.

She lay there and a second round hit her on the right arm. By then her two boys lay dead. "I left them because they were dead," she said. One, she saw, had been decapitated by a shell.

"I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me. My youngest child was alive next to me."

Mrs Shibab's description, backed by other witnesses, of an attack on a sleeping village is at odds with the American claim that they came under fire while targeting a suspected foreign fighter safe house . . .

Major General James Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, was scathing of those who suggested a wedding party had been hit. "How many people go to the middle of the desert ... to hold a wedding 80 miles (130km) from the nearest civilisation? These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naive."

When reporters asked him about footage on Arabic television of a child's body being lowered into a grave, he replied: "I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1221658,00.html

The general is right -- we are way past apologizing now.

[Voltron]

Much of the media continues to broadcast the pant load that the U.S. military attacked a wedding party in Iraq, killing up to 45 people.

Did I say "much of the media?" How about the entire media ... especially when it comes to the Euro-weenie press. Just take a look at some of the headlines that appeared yesterday:

"Occupation Bombs Iraq Wedding Party" Al Jezerra

"U.S. Raids Iraq Wedding" Pak Tribune, Pakistan

"Carelessness Defies Belief in Attack" The Scotsman

"Coalition Under Fire in Iraq for Wedding Strike" French News Agency

"Iraqis Blame U.S. for Wedding Strike" Reuters

The military is investigating, but Marine Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis said it best at a press conference in Fallujah. "Ten miles from the Syrian border and 80 miles from the nearest city and a wedding party? Don't be naive. Plus, they had 30 males of military age with them. How many people go to the middle of the desert to have a wedding party?" The General forgot to add "At 3:00 in the morning, no less."

Also, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said several shotguns, handguns, Kalishnikov rifles and machine guns were discovered at the site. They also found jewelry and vehicles that indicated the people gathering weren't exactly wandering sheepherders.

Wedding? I doubt it.....sounds like a terrorist base to me. Kudos to the military for ferreting them out and killing the bastards.


They carry machine guns too at weddings. Remind me not to go to one of their funerals. Wedding parties at 3 am? Get real

Now the media is demostrating their left wing slant again.
Then again at least 3 of those news media listing I already knew was obviously left wing.

[Ugg]

They carry machine guns too at weddings. Remind me not to go to one of their funerals. Wedding parties at 3 am? Get real

Now the media is demostrating their left wing slant again.
Then again at least 3 of those news media listing I already knew was obviously left wing.

Once again your inability to understand cultural differences clouds your ability to think objectively. The majority of the guests had left around 10 pm. The immediate family, since it was their home, duh, were still there. Virtually every home in Iraq has a gun, some have many guns. Which, when you come to think about it makes sense since the US has been unable to create a secure and safe postwar environment. Many of the guns are very old and date back to the early century. You and your gun toting buddies should be ecstatic that guns are held in such high esteem. Or is that only an option for paranoid Americans?

I didn't realize that males of military age were unable to gather together in Iraq.

I don't know where you come from but wedding parties here in the US are not unknown to last til the wee hours.

The claim that any party near the Syrian border and in a small village is automatically suspect is bollocks.

How you can stand to read such bs is beyond me....

[poopyhead]

They carry machine guns too at weddings. Remind me not to go to one of their funerals. Wedding parties at 3 am? Get real

Now the media is demonstrating their left wing slant again.
Then again at least 3 of those news media listing I already knew was obviously left wing.

come on Voltron
this is a completely different culture
yes they have machine guns and yes wedding parties at 3 am in fact wedding parties last until the next morning

I live in atlanta, a city with a fairly large immigrant population
In chamblee, a suburb of atlanta known for its very large and diverse asian, mexican, south american, and indian populations (also a great place to shop for neat things) there have been problems with people firing guns into the air in the middle of the night for both weddings and quinceaneros
all night weddings with guns and money happen in the US (not just among immigrant populations) so why is it so strange that they happen in Iraq

[numediaman]

Once again your inability to understand cultural differences clouds your ability to think objectively. The majority of the guests had left around 10 pm. The immediate family, since it was their home, duh, were still there.

Ugg, you completely miss the point: these people had no right to be in their homes at 3 in the morning. Iraqis are to report back to the prison for their daily rape and humilation before midnight. Anybody seen outside of the prison gates is fair game. Surely you see that, no?

[skunk]

They carry machine guns too at weddings. Remind me not to go to one of their funerals. Wedding parties at 3 am? Get real

Now the media is demostrating their left wing slant again.
Then again at least 3 of those news media listing I already knew was obviously left wing.
You are making a fool of yourself.

[numediaman]

Latest:

Ahmed Chalabi Arrested
Controversal Iraqi Exile Flown to Washington

WASHINGTON – Fox News – Controversal Iraqi Exile leader, Ahmed Chalabi and been arrested by Coalition Forces and flown to the United States. "We've been very disappointed by Mr. Chalabi's contribution to the stabilization of Iraq", a White House spokesman said Friday morning.

Chalabi was immediately taken to see the President and was forced to endure the taunts of Lynndie England, flown in especially for the event. "I was happy to do my duty for my country", said England.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53974-2004Apr29.html

[Frohickey]

Everything he did was technically by the book, not unlike how our current administration runs.

I think that our current adminstration and situation is still fine.

Let me just say that if any administration, even GWBush, seeks to turn this country into something it is not, like what Hitler did after he was Chancellor, *I* will be right there fighting it. You can join me if you want.

[takao]

Let me just say that if any administration, even GWBush, seeks to turn this country into something it is not, like what Hitler did after he was Chancellor, *I* will be right there fighting it. You can join me if you want.

well the problem will that from insida a country you might not notice it untill it is too late...

as soon as one side calls their political opponents "unpatriotic" my warning bells are ringing... for me that is the clearest sign of a government heading a direction we all don't want.... just observate who's calling whom "unpatriotic" in the USA at the moment

[skunk]

Let me just say that if any administration, even GWBush, seeks to turn this country into something it is not, like what Hitler did after he was Chancellor, *I* will be right there fighting it. You can join me if you want.
What are you waiting for?

[numediaman]

Retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni will appear on 60 Minutes this Sunday:

"The course is headed over Niagara Falls. I think it's time to change course a little bit or at least hold somebody responsible for putting you on this course," he tells Correspondent Steve Kroft in an interview to be broadcast on 60 Minutes, Sunday, May 23, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

The current situation in Iraq was destined to happen, says Zinni, because planning for the war and its aftermath has been flawed all along.

"There has been poor strategic thinking in this...poor operational planning and execution on the ground," says Zinni, who served as commander-in-chief of the U.S. Central Command from 1997 to 2000.

Zinni blames the poor planning on the civilian policymakers in the administration, known as neoconservatives who saw the invasion as a way to stabilize the region and support Israel. He believes these people, who include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense, have hijacked U.S. foreign policy.

"They promoted it and pushed [the war]... even to the point of creating their own intelligence to match their needs. Then they should bear the responsibility," Zinni tells Kroft.

In his upcoming book, "Battle Ready," written with Tom Clancy, Zinni writes of the poor planning in harsh terms. "In the lead-up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw, at minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility; at worst, lying, incompetence and corruption," he writes.

Zinni explains to Kroft, "I think there was dereliction in insufficient forces being put on the ground and [in not] fully understanding the military dimensions of the plan."

[IJ Reilly]

Now, this is one thing I don't remember hearing during Vietnam. I don't recall any of the top military brass back then, retired or otherwise, saying that the operation had been cocked up by the military planners.

[numediaman]

Gotta love Halliburton:

Trucks made to drive without cargo in dangerous areas of Iraq

BY SETH BORENSTEIN

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - (KRT) - Empty flatbed trucks crisscrossed Iraq more than 100 times as their drivers and the soldiers who guarded them dodged bullets, bricks and homemade bombs.

Twelve current and former truckers who regularly made the 300-mile re-supply run from Camp Cedar in southern Iraq to Camp Anaconda near Baghdad told Knight Ridder that they risked their lives driving empty trucks while their employer, a subsidiary of Halliburton Inc., billed the government for hauling what they derisively called "sailboat fuel."

Defense Department records show that Kellogg Brown and Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, has been paid $327 million for "theater transportation" of war materiel and supplies for U.S. forces in Iraq and is earmarked to be paid $230 million more. The convoys are a lifeline for U.S. troops in Iraq hauling tires for Humvees, Army boots, filing cabinets, tools, engine parts and even an unmanned Predator reconnaissance plane.

KBR's contract with the Defense Department allows the company to pass on the cost of the transportation and add 1 percent to 3 percent for profit, but neither KBR nor the U.S. Army Field Support Command in Rock Island, Ill., which oversees the contract, was able to provide cost estimates for the empty trucks. Trucking experts estimate that each round trip costs taxpayers thousands of dollars.

Seven of the 12 truckers who talked to Knight Ridder asked that they not be identified by name. Six of the 12 were fired by KBR for allegedly running Iraqi drivers off the road when they attempted to break into the convoy. The drivers disputed that accusation.

In addition to interviewing the drivers, Knight Ridder reviewed KBR records of the empty trips, dozens of photographs of empty flatbeds and a videotape that showed 15 empty trucks in one convoy.

The 12 drivers, all interviewed separately over the course of more than a month, told similar stories about their trips through hostile territory.

"Thor," a driver who quit KBR and got his nickname for using a hammer to fight off a knife-wielding Iraqi who tried to climb into the cab of his truck, said his doctor recently told him he might lose the use of his right eye after a December attack. Iraqis shattered his windshield with machine gunfire and bullets whizzed by his ear. Glass got in his eye, and he broke two bones in his shoulder, he said.

His truck was empty at the time.

"I thought, `What good is this?'" he recalled.

Shane "Nitro" Ratliff of Ruby, S.C., who quit working for KBR in February, recalled a harrowing trip in December.

As he was hauling an empty truck to Baghdad International Airport, Iraqis threw spikes under his tires and a brick, a cement-like clot of sand and gasoline through his windshield, scattering shards of glass all over him and into his eyes.

"We didn't have no weapons; I had two rocks and a can of ravioli to fight with," Ratliff said.

Ratliff caught up with his fleeing convoy in his damaged truck and made it to the airport safely. He figured he'd pick up a load there, but he was told to return with another empty trailer.

Iraqi insurgents have killed two civilian drivers.

Kellogg Brown and Root, the Army and the truckers gave different reasons for why empty trucks were driven through areas that the drivers nicknamed "rockville" and "slaughterhouse" for the dangers they presented.

Some of the truckers charged that KBR is billing the Pentagon for unnecessary work. KBR described the practice as normal, given the large number of trucks it has delivering goods throughout Iraq. Army officials said longer convoys may provide better security.

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/8726376.htm

[skunk]

I picture Mad Max, crossed with the Wages of Fear (fantastic movie). Maybe George has Immanentized the Eschaton.

[Frohickey]

Wow.

Maybe Kellogg, Brown & Root need some competition.
Numediaman, wanna go to Iraq and haul some cargo? I'll cut you in for an equal share of the action and pay. If others join us, we'll cut them in for an equal share too.

Lets see... if KBR can charge $327million, I bet we can do it for less, say $300million... thats $150M for you and me.

(okay, end_sarcasm)

The only thing I can think of is sometimes, empty trailers need to be hauled from one place to another place. Its not like you can leave an all the empty trailers at their destination, if there is nothing from that destination that has to go back out.

I wonder if the KnightRidder journalist thought of that, that sometimes, empty trailers need to be brought from place to place.

[skunk]

The only thing I can think of is sometimes, empty trailers need to be hauled from one place to another place. Its not like you can leave an all the empty trailers at their destination, if there is nothing from that destination that has to go back out.

I wonder if the KnightRidder journalist thought of that, that sometimes, empty trailers need to be brought from place to place.
True. But it sounds like there are empty return trips too, and KBR are charging for them.
Not a job I'd care for.

[Voltron]

Sounds to me like they are insisting on full convoys even when convoys are not full. ie this trip they might have enough to fill 6 trucks but a convoy is 8 so they send 2 of em empty. The idea probably that more trucks, less likely to be attacked. Or maybe its smaller than that they don't want single trucks out on the road they make good targets so they send a second or third with it even if they have to send them empty as guardian angels.

[skunk]

Sounds to me like they are insisting on full convoys even when convoys are not full. ie this trip they might have enough to fill 6 trucks but a convoy is 8 so they send 2 of em empty. The idea probably that more trucks, less likely to be attacked. Or maybe its smaller than that they don't want single trucks out on the road they make good targets so they send a second or third with it even if they have to send them empty as guardian angels.
I agree. If it's anything at all, it's small beer.

Let me put that in the diary:
22nd May 2004, Agreed with Voltron.
:eek: :D

[Voltron]

Ugg, you completely miss the point: these people had no right to be in their homes at 3 in the morning. Iraqis are to report back to the prison for their daily rape and humilation before midnight. Anybody seen outside of the prison gates is fair game. Surely you see that, no?
Additionally none of the dead from the so called wedding party wore watches or had id. But they did have machine guns. Yeah biiiig cultural differences.

[skunk]

Additionally none of the dead from the so called wedding party wore watches or had id. But they did have machine guns. Yeah biiiig cultural differences.
Why the hell should they wear watches or have ID in their own home in the middle of the desert? EVERYONE IN IRAQ HAS AN AK47. GET OVER IT! You know absolutely nothing about it. This kind of denial merely makes a bad situation worse, just like Kimmit's ridiculous statements. "Military age men". Syrian passports (Well, duh. Some of the people there were Syrian). $800 in cash. Big deal. That's a really good set of reasons (all found after the event) for a massacre, isn't it? If this is the best argument you can manage, it's not good enough. If this is what you mean by letting the military get on with it, perhaps you need to do some more "thinking".

[Neserk]

*looks at wrists* No watch. *checks pockets* no ID :eek:

[skunk]

*looks at wrists* No watc. *checks pockets* no ID :eek:
Where did you stash the AK47?

[Neserk]

Where did you stash the AK47?


*looks down* I'm still in my jammies... I forgot it :eek:

[Voltron]

Why the hell should they wear watches or have ID in their own home in the middle of the desert? EVERYONE IN IRAQ HAS AN AK47. GET OVER IT! You know absolutely nothing about it. This kind of denial merely makes a bad situation worse, just like Kimmit's ridiculous statements. "Military age men". Syrian passports (Well, duh. Some of the people there were Syrian). $800 in cash. Big deal. That's a really good set of reasons (all found after the event) for a massacre, isn't it? If this is the best argument you can manage, it's not good enough. If this is what you mean by letting the military get on with it, perhaps you need to do some more "thinking".
They weren't in their own home they were in the middle of the dessert miles from any villages. Scroll up or to a previous page I don't remember quit how far back the quote was but it's there.

[skunk]

*looks down* I'm still in my jammies... I forgot it :eek:
You just failed Iraqi Civilian 101.

[Neserk]

You just failed Iraqi Civilian 101.

I was close. But guns make me squeamish...

[skunk]

They weren't in their own home they were in the middle of the dessert miles from any villages. Scroll up or to a previous page I don't remember quit how far back the quote was but it's there.
Rubbish. If they were in the middle of the desert, what the hell were the houses the army blew up?

[takao]

and of course in the arabic world weapons _are_ traditional wedding presents... 600 years ago it were swords and bows and now... big surprise ... a rifle

voltron you can't say "it was 100% OK" and nor do i can say "it was not"

we _all_ don't know...yes including boortz (or however that guy is called you love to quote)

[Squire]

*looks at wrists* No watch. *checks pockets* no ID :eek:

Incidentally, I had neither a watch nor ID on my person during my wedding.

Squire

[Neserk]

Incidentally, I had neither a watch nor ID on my person during my wedding.

Squire

I *never* have ID unless I'm shopping alone. And I only wear the watch that is attached to my neck thingy that holds my keys when I'm on site at a school.

[numediaman]

Lawyer: Top U.S. Officer Knew of Prison Abuse

By Scott Higham, Joe Stephens and Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, May 22, 2004; 7:05 PM

A military lawyer for a soldier charged in the Abu Ghraib abuse case testified that a captain at the Baghdad prison said the highest-ranking U.S. military officer in Iraq was present during some "interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse," according to a recording of a military hearing obtained by The Washington Post.

The lawyer said he was told that Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez and other senior military officers were aware of what was taking place on Tier 1A of Abu Ghraib. The lawyer, Capt. Robert Shuck, also said a sergeant at the prison was prepared to testify that intelligence officers told him the abuse of detainees on the cellblock was "the right thing to do."

Shuck is assigned to defend Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II of the 372nd Military Police Company. During an April 2 hearing that was open to the public, Shuck said the company commander, Capt. Donald J. Reese, was prepared to testify in exchange for immunity. The military prosecutor questioned Shuck about what Reese would say under oath.


"Are you saying that Captain Reese is going to testify that General Sanchez was there and saw this going on?" asked Capt. John McCabe, the military prosecutor.

"That's what he told me," Shuck said. "I am an officer of the court, sir, and I would not lie. I have got two children at home. I'm not going to risk my career."

So far, clear evidence has yet to emerge that high-level officers condoned or promoted the abusive practices. Officers at the prison have blamed the abuse on a handful of rogue, low-level military police officers from the 372nd, a company of U.S. Army reservists based in Cresaptown, Md. The general in charge of prisons in Iraq at the time has said that military intelligence officers took control of Abu Ghraib and gave the MPs "ideas."

A Defense Department spokesman today referred questions about Sanchez to U.S. military officials in the Middle East, cautioning that statements by defense lawyers or their clients should be treated with "appropriate caution." Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the senior military spokesman in Iraq, said Sanchez was unavailable for comment last night but would "enjoy the opportunity" to respond later.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A48229-2004May22?language=printer

This is climbing the ladder rather quickly.

[zimv20]

from the article:

"That's what he told me," Shuck said. "I am an officer of the court, sir, and I would not lie. I have got two children at home. I'm not going to risk my career."


given this adminstration's track record, i'm not sure he understands what he has just risked

[numediaman]

Two Letters to the Editor from today's NY Times:

May 23, 2004

The Hawks on Iraq, and My Lost Son (2 Letters)

To the Editor:

In "The Hawks Loudly Express Their Second Thoughts" (Week in Review, May 16), you note that the shapers of thoughts and architects of the war now have troubling doubts about their enthusiastic support of the invasion of Iraq. How sad for them.

I am the mother of Sgt. Sherwood Baker of the Pennsylvania National Guard, soldier 720. That number is seared on my soul now, along with the screams and despair of my family and the wind carrying the sound of taps above the weeping crowd at the grave site of my son.

To me and mine, the consequences of the failed judgment and outright lies of the Bush administration and its apologists and spokesmen are not just becoming "depressed" or "angst-ridden." We have lost our brave and beloved son, who was ordered to the war these folks dreamed of and hoped for.

The explosion that killed my son in Baghdad will go on in our lives forever. Sherwood gave the full measure of his responsibility as an American citizen doing his duty for an administration that betrayed him.

CELESTE ZAPPALA
Philadelphia, May 17, 2004


•


To the Editor:

For a few moments, it is gratifying to those who have argued consistently against this Iraq war to watch the hawkish supporters of President Bush's disastrous policy experience a change of heart and mind (Week in Review, May 16).

Yet never, it seems, do these self-proclaimed sages credit their opponents with having been correct or say, "If we had listened to others, we would not be in this mess."

Their errors have lost American and Iraqi lives and are bankrupting our country both economically and intellectually. Their sense of certainty and lack of respect for opposing points of view have contributed to the partisan division of our nation. Humility is not only a virtue; it is critical when considering war as a policy option.

The administration's combination of secrecy and certainty has made our democracy suffer grievously.

DANIEL D. MORGAN
Fremont, Calif., May 16, 2004

http://nytimes.com/2004/05/23/opinion/L23HAWK.html?pagewanted=print&position=

[skunk]

Two Letters to the Editor from today's NY Times:

There must be a lot of these people out there. :( :(

[Zaid]

Wedding Video Released (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3741223.stm)

A wedding video showing some of the victims and survivors of the US attack. The tape can't be verified, so it neither proves nor disproves anything. Though it certainly muddles the waters.

What is interesting is how different the stories of the military and the survivors are. Looks like the army is sticking to its story, though it hasn't presented any proof of what its said it shot or found. (has it?) so i guess we just have their word to go on.

[skunk]

Wedding Video Released (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3741223.stm)

A wedding video showing some of the victims and survivors of the US attack. The tape can't be verified, so it neither proves nor disproves anything. Though it certainly muddles the waters.

What is interesting is how different the stories of the military and the survivors are. Looks like the army is sticking to its story, though it hasn't presented any proof of what its said it shot or found. (has it?) so i guess we just have their word to go on.
Well SOMEBODY is telling a porky. :(

[Zaid]

Well SOMEBODY is telling a porky. :(

Strangely I'm not filled with an overwhelming sense of faith in the honesty of the claims of the US military. They could be telling the truth, but i doubt it.

In any case, we're unlikely to ever know the whole truth on this matter as it is unlikely the US will step down even if it is lying. It'd be too embarassing and would hurt their already beleagured image even further.

If indeed they are lying, i doubt they'd admit it unless some overwhelming evidence to the contrary was released; which is unlikely.

[skunk]

If indeed they are lying, i doubt they'd admit it unless some overwhelming evidence to the contrary was released; which is unlikely.
Isn't a video showing before and after enough? It looks pretty convincing to me. Give it a couple more days and we'll get some mealy-mouthed military climbdown delivered with poor grace.
Kimmit needs taking down a peg or two.
(And the rest of the Gang, for that matter)

[Zaid]

Isn't a video showing before and after enough? It looks pretty convincing to me. Give it a couple more days and we'll get some mealy-mouthed military climbdown delivered with poor grace.
Kimmit needs taking down a peg or two.
(And the rest of the Gang, for that matter)

It would be except that the source of the video can't be verified, and if its source can't be verified, it cant be taken as conclusive proof one way or the other.

Personally I'm far more inclined to believe that the video is genuine than anything the US army says, but thats just me.

[skunk]

It would be except that the source of the video can't be verified, and if its source can't be verified, it cant be taken as conclusive proof one way or the other.
The video shows that SOMEBODY shot up a wedding.

[Voltron]

Strangely I'm not filled with an overwhelming sense of faith in the honesty of the claims of the US military. They could be telling the truth, but i doubt it.

In any case, we're unlikely to ever know the whole truth on this matter as it is unlikely the US will step down even if it is lying. It'd be too embarassing and would hurt their already beleagured image even further.

If indeed they are lying, i doubt they'd admit it unless some overwhelming evidence to the contrary was released; which is unlikely.
But you do have complete faith in the Syrians who have been constantly sending terrorists over the border to do battle with our troops.

You have complete faith over Arab television which ignores the crap done by other Arabs and nit picks the stuff the US troops do.

Not me. I prefer to trust our own military. Even if they have proven they aren't perfect.

[skunk]

But you do have complete faith in the Syrians who have been constantly sending terrorists over the border to do battle with our troops.
The Syrians have not claimed anything, as far as I am aware. Yes, Syrian and Iraqi Bedouin do cross the border frequently: they live there, and have lived there for a few thousand years longer than there has been a border.

You have complete faith over Arab television which ignores the crap done by other Arabs and nit picks the stuff the US troops do.
I have read interviews with many people who were there, or who had relatives there, in the Independent and the Guardian and other papers. If this was not a wedding, who shot up the one in the video? Who killed the singer? Do you think it was STAGED?

Not me. I prefer to trust our own military. Even if they have proven they aren't perfect.
Well, that speaks volumes for your critical faculties.

[Zaid]

The Syrians have not claimed anything, as far as I am aware. Yes, Syrian and Iraqi Bedouin do cross the border frequently: they live there, and have lived there for a few thousand years longer than there has been a border.


I have read interviews with many people who were there, or who had relatives there, in the Independent and the Guardian and other papers. If this was not a wedding, who shot up the one in the video? Who killed the singer? Do you think it was STAGED?


Well, that speaks volumes for your critical faculties.

Cheers for that mate, I've got that guy on my ignore list. :D

[skunk]

Cheers for that mate, I've got that guy on my ignore list. :D
You're welcome! :rolleyes:

[Zaid]

Just seen pictures (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/photo_gallery/3741973.stm) from the video. That most certainly is a wedding!

<push toungue against cheek>
Oh wait maybe the syrian terrorists were pretending to have a wedding celebration in the video so that if they were attacked, they could claim it was a wedding party release the video and embarass the US.

Of course it'll never work because we all know that the US army never does anything wrong or makes mistakes. ever. and if they did, they'd tell us immeadiately and admit it. they'd never try and cover it up or sit on the truth for months until a newspaper released evidence, would they?

<remove toungue from cheek>

[skunk]

<push toungue against cheek>
Oh wait maybe the syrian terrorists were pretending to have a wedding celebration in the video so that if they were attacked, they could claim it was a wedding party release the video and embarass the US.

Of course it'll never work because we all know that the US army never does anything wrong or makes mistakes. ever. and if they did, they'd tell us immeadiately and admit it. they'd never try and cover it up or sit on the truth for months until a newspaper released evidence, would they?

<remove toungue from cheek>
I just tried that. It's impossible. You can't possibly say all that with your tongue in your cheek.:rolleyes:

Seriously, though, somebody had better come clean about this very soon, or it's going to get worse. Kimmit should go. He's a liability. :mad:

[Zaid]

I just tried that. It's impossible. You can't possibly say all that with your tongue in your cheek.:rolleyes:

Practice makes perfect :p


Seriously, though, somebody had better come clean about this very soon, or it's going to get worse. Kimmit should go. He's a liability. :mad:

Not only that, but this kind of thing is not in long term interests of the US in the region. I can certainly imagine that any democratically elected govt in Iraq is going to be under very strong pressure to ask the US to leave, and a popularly elected govt may not be entirely friendly to the US either. (That is of course assuming that the US allows the 'democratic' process to create such a govt, or that it doesn't stage a coup to install a friendly govt.)

But then the current US administration seems to believe that all the trouble in Iraq is all the result of a few terrorists and foreigners; and that the Iraqi people are all totally in favour of them being there.

[skunk]

But then the current US administration seems to believe that all the trouble in Iraq is all the result of a few terrorists and foreigners.
It is. About 135,000 of them.

[Zaid]

It is. About 135,000 of them.
Yes of course it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that heavy handed US military tactics have fuelled Sunni and Shi'ite opposition. Or that "there are signs of better organisation by insurgents and a reservoir of popular support, at least among Sunnis." ( from the leaked f.o. memo) :eek: :mad:

[numediaman]

Winning hearts and minds:

'I will always hate you people'

Family's fury at mystery death

Luke Harding in Baghdad
Monday May 24, 2004
The Guardian

The first Mohammed Munim al-Izmerly's family knew of his death was when his battered corpse turned up at Baghdad's morgue. Attached to the zipped-up black US body bag was a laconic note.

The US military claimed in the note that Dr Izmerly, a distinguished chemistry professor arrested after US tanks encircled his villa, had died of "brainstem compression".

Dr Izmerly's sudden death after 10 months in American custody left his family stunned, not least because three weeks earlier they had visited him in the US prison at Baghdad airport. His 23-year-old daughter, Rana, recalled that he had seemed in "good health".

The family commissioned an independent Iraqi autopsy. Its conclusion was unambiguous: Dr Izmerly had died because of a "sudden hit to the back of his head", Faik Amin Baker, the director of Baghdad hospital's forensic department, certified.

The cause of death was blunt trauma. It was uncertain exactly how he died, but someone had hit him from behind, possibly with a bar or a pistol, Dr Baker confirmed yesterday.

"He died from a massive blow to the head. We don't disagree with the coalition's report, but it doesn't explain how he got his injuries in the first place," he told the Guardian.

The apparent murder of a "high-value" detainee, held as part of the search for weapons of mass destruction, is another blow for the Bush administration, still reeling from the Abu Ghraib jail abuse scandal.

Dr Izmerly was on the coalition's original "200 list" of suspects from Saddam Hussein's regime, and his death happened just two weeks after the US military began its own secret inquiry into the prison west of Baghdad. Last Friday the Pentagon admitted it was now investigating eight more suspected murders.

Several prisoners have been found to have died before or during interrogation. They include Major General Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former commander of Iraq's air defences, who died last November during interrogation at Qaim.

The original US autopsy said he had died of a heart attack. It now appears he was suffocated during interrogation when a CIA officer put him in a sleeping bag and sat on him.

Last night the family of Dr Izmerly were in little doubt he had been murdered in US custody. The reasons for his death were covered up, they believe.

"This was not natural," Rana told the Guardian yesterday, in the first interview given by the family since his death. "The evidence is clear. It suggests the Americans killed him and then tried to hide what they had done. I will hate Americans and British people for the rest of my life. You are democrats. You said you were coming to bring democracy, and yet you kill my father. By accepting your governments, you accept what they do here in Iraq.

"You offer no proof that he did something wrong, you refuse him a lawyer and then you kill him. Why?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4930996-103550,00.html

Along the same lines (sorry for the long post):

AP: 5,558 Iraqi civilians killed under occupation
Survey of morgues in Baghdad, three provinces reveals grim toll

Wally Santana / AP
The Associated Press
Updated: 5:08 p.m.*ET May*23, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq - An Associated Press survey of deaths in the first 12 months of the occupation found that more than 5,000 Iraqis died violently in just Baghdad and three provinces. The toll from both criminal and political violence ran dramatically higher than violent deaths before the war, according to statistics from morgues.

There are no reliable figures for places like Fallujah and Najaf that have seen surges in fighting since early April.

Indeed, there is no precise count for Iraq as a whole on how many people have been killed, nor is there a breakdown of deaths caused by the different sorts of attacks. The U.S. military, the occupation authority and Iraqi government agencies say they don’t have the ability to track civilian deaths.

But the AP survey of morgues in Baghdad and the provinces of Karbala, Kirkuk and Tikrit found 5,558 violent deaths recorded from May 1, 2003, when President Bush declared an end to major combat operations, to April 30. Officials at morgues for three more of Iraq’s 18 provinces either didn’t have numbers or declined to release them.

[Zaid]

"This was not natural," Rana told the Guardian yesterday, in the first interview given by the family since his death. "The evidence is clear. It suggests the Americans killed him and then tried to hide what they had done. I will hate Americans and British people for the rest of my life. You are democrats. You said you were coming to bring democracy, and yet you kill my father. By accepting your governments, you accept what they do here in Iraq.

"You offer no proof that he did something wrong, you refuse him a lawyer and then you kill him. Why?"



So far, it seems as if the 'war on terror' has succeded only in creating sympathy for anti-american and terrorist organisations.

[skunk]

It is. About 135,000 of them.
I was of course referring to the "coalition of the unwitting" :rolleyes:

[Zaid]

I was of course referring to the "coalition of the unwitting" :rolleyes:

hehehe, didn't catch that :D :D :D :D :D

[skunk]

hehehe, didn't catch that :D :D :D :D :D
:D

[Frohickey]

I was close. But guns make me squeamish...

Why do guns make you squeamish?


Machine gun weddings... wow! :eek: The only thing we have in the US are shotgun weddings. ;) :p

[Neserk]

Why do guns make you squeamish?


Because they have one purpose: to end life.

[mactastic]

Because they have one purpose: to end life.

Now, now... that's not true. They are useful for celebrating weddings after all. ;)

[Frohickey]

Now, now... that's not true. They are useful for celebrating weddings after all. ;)

Or getting the groom to attend. ;)

[mactastic]

Or getting the groom to attend. ;)

Maybe at YOUR wedding... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[pseudobrit]

New official spin: "even bad guys get married."

I'm not kidding. I wish I could write such satire.

[Voltron]

WASHINGTON - Comprehensive testing has confirmed the presence of the chemical weapon sarin in the remains of a roadside bomb discovered this month in Baghdad, a defense official said Tuesday.

Saddam's alleged stockpile of weapons of mass destruction was the Bush administration's chief stated reason for invading Iraq. U.S. weapons hunters have been unable to validate the prewar intelligence.


Some trace elements of mustard agent, an older type of chemical weapon, were detected in an artillery shell found in a Baghdad street this month, U.S. officials said previously. The shell also was believed to be from one of Saddam's old stockpiles.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040525/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_sarin_2

[skunk]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040525/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_sarin_2
So what? :confused:

[numediaman]

It's about freakin' time!!!!

Judy's Turn To Cry
The New York Times prepares an "Editors' Note" about its prewar WMD reporting.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 2:39 PM PT

Sources inside and close to the New York Times say that the newspaper is preparing an "Editors' Note" that will reassess its pre-Iraq War coverage, particularly its coverage of weapons of mass destruction. The note is said to address the reporting failures of Times staffers, including Judith Miller, and could be published as early as tomorrow (Wednesday, May 26).

On a separate track, Times Public Editor Daniel Okrent has been calling Times staffers to discuss the WMD issue, fueling speculations that he, too, will write about the subject in his Sunday column. Okrent and Times Executive Editor Bill Keller had previously declined to audit Miller's WMD coverage. Okrent said he didn't wanted to get bogged down in evaluating the paper's past deeds as he began his public editorship; Keller cited both cost-benefit analysis and his faith in Miller's reportorial abilities in demurring.

Miller's work on WMD in the Times deserves special scrutiny because so many of her sensational stories never panned out—from a December 2001 piece about now-discredited Iraqi defector Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, who claimed inside knowledge about a score of Iraq WMD programs and storage facilities, to a December 2002 scoop about a possible Russia-Iraq smallpox collaboration, to a January 2003 eve-of-war piece reiterating the defectors' stories of Iraqi WMD.

Miller's credulous reporting turned absolutely hyperbolic when she joined the search for WMD on the ground in Iraq, embedding with the U.S. military's Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha. In an April 21, 2003, piece, Miller claimed that an Iraqi scientist had led the military to a cache of precursor compounds for a banned "toxic agent." She told The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer the next day that the scientist was more than a "smoking gun" in the WMD search, he was the "silver bullet."

But by July 2003, still no WMD had been found in Iraq. Instead of blaming the defectors and inside sources who had led her astray, Miller put the onus on the poor logistics of the weapons search!

http://slate.msn.com/id/2101124/

The sorriest excuse for a reporter, Judith Miller:

[zimv20]

The sorriest excuse for a reporter, Judith Miller:
glad to see she's back in the limelight

[IJ Reilly]

The April 2003 PBS report from Miller cited above:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june03/search_04-22.html

In fairness, her "silver bullet" remark is a quote from the MET Alpha team, but it's indicative of what happens when reporters are embedded into military units.

[Zaid]

It really was only a matter of time before alligations like this surfaced.


A human rights organistaion in Iraq has claimed many of the aggressive US raids on civilian homes end in the theft of money and other property.


Speaking to journalists on Tuesday, Adil Alami – a legal representative for Iraq's Human Rights Organisation – says the majority of his case load involves civilians seeking compensation for lost property and cash.

"It's a huge problem, almost everyone has something to say about gold, money and other valuables going missing and they don't believe they'll ever get them back."

...

But Stewart Vriesinga, a coordinator for Christian Peacemaker Teams, a non-profit group that documents abuses in Iraq, said: "Confiscation and theft during raids is rampant."

"Soldiers don't seem to understand the Iraqi custom of not using banks - a lot of people keep fairly substantial sums of money at home.

"A soldier from Kentucky or wherever sees that and thinks the person must be up to no good, so he takes it.




http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A6D8B265-4021-4F37-AFE9-664205961B4B.htm

And for those amongst us that refuse to believe anything AlJazeera says (but will strangely accept anything mentioned on FOX :confused: )


...

A shouting match broke out when an Iraqi civilian, Jamal Shalal Habib al-Mahemdi, accused a U.S. soldier of stealing $600 (U.S.) from his car.

The soldier tried to wave the man on, but, at the behest of bystanders, his superior officer, Sgt. James Phillips, searched his pockets and found the money. Phillips then returned the bills to Mr. al-Mahemdi, who waved them above his head and cursed the soldier.

It was not clear if the soldier, whose name was not immediately available, would be disciplined. Major Sean Gibson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, said he had not heard of the incident but was sure it would be investigated.

The incident was witnessed by an Associated Press photographer.

...


http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030629.wiraq0629a/BNStory/International/

[toontra]

It really was only a matter of time before allegations like this surfaced.

If one takes the "leading by example" precept, if the ordinary grunt perceives a culture of no-tender deals and the oil revenues being used to subsidise uncommercial contracts designed to benefit the supplier (occupying force) rather that the client (invaded), it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see them saying "Hey, everyone up the chain is milking this, why shouldn't I"!

And let's face it, if there wern't pesky journalists around to spot this, that soldier would have probably gotten away with it. I know, let's ban digital cameras - oh, wait...

[numediaman]

The Times followed through with their mea culpa:

FROM THE EDITORS
The Times and Iraq

Published: May 26, 2004

Over the last year this newspaper has shone the bright light of hindsight on decisions that led the United States into Iraq. We have examined the failings of American and allied intelligence, especially on the issue of Iraq's weapons and possible Iraqi connections to international terrorists. We have studied the allegations of official gullibility and hype. It is past time we turned the same light on ourselves.

In doing so — reviewing hundreds of articles written during the prelude to war and into the early stages of the occupation — we found an enormous amount of journalism that we are proud of. In most cases, what we reported was an accurate reflection of the state of our knowledge at the time, much of it painstakingly extracted from intelligence agencies that were themselves dependent on sketchy information. And where those articles included incomplete information or pointed in a wrong direction, they were later overtaken by more and stronger information. That is how news coverage normally unfolds.

But we have found a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been. In some cases, information that was controversial then, and seems questionable now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged — or failed to emerge . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/international/middleeast/26FTE_NOTE.html?8dpc

The article goes on for a few web pages, as you can imagine.

But for those who don't want to wade through the story, the Washington Post provided a summary (when they look into their own pre-war cheerleading?):

Among the problematic stories cited:

• In October and November 2001, front-page pieces cited Iraqi defectors who described a secret camp where terrorists were trained and biological weapons produced. "These accounts have never been independently verified."

• In December 2001, Miller cited an Iraqi defector who said he had worked on renovations of secret facilities for biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. While weapons might still be found, "in this case it looks as if we, along with the administration, were taken in. And until now we have not reported that to our readers."

• A lead article in September 2002, co-authored by Miller, was headlined "U.S. Says Hussein Intensified Quest for A-Bomb Parts." The story "should have been presented more cautiously," and "misgivings" that surfaced days later "appeared deep in an article on Page A13, under a headline that gave no inkling that we were revising our earlier view."

• In April 2003, Miller reported that an Iraqi scientist who claimed to have worked in the country's weapons program "has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began," and that the team had found "precursors" of banned toxic agents. But "The Times never followed up on the veracity of this source or the attempts to verify his claims." Miller had said on PBS that the scientist was not just a "smoking gun" but "a silver bullet."

In a New York Review of Books interview, Miller said her note about Chalabi was exaggerated as part of "an angry e-mail exchange" with colleague John Burns.

In a note to Okrent in March, Keller said he "did not see a prima facie case for recanting or repudiating the stories." He called Miller "a smart, well-sourced, industrious and fearless reporter with a keen instinct for news, and an appetite for dauntingly hard subjects.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56265-2004May26.html

[numediaman]

U.S. war policy 'grave error'
Ex-Rumsfeld aide admits occupation of Iraq a failure
Britain, U.S. at odds over interim government's role

SANDRO CONTENTA
EUROPEAN BUREAU

LONDON, England—One of the ideological architects of the Iraq war has criticized the U.S.-led occupation of the country as "a grave error."

Richard Perle, until recently a powerful adviser to U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, described U.S. policy in post-war Iraq as a failure.

"I would be the first to acknowledge we allowed the liberation (of Iraq) to subside into an occupation. And I think that was a grave error, and in some ways a continuing error," said Perle, former chair of the influential Defence Policy Board, which advises the Pentagon.

With violent resistance to the U.S.-led occupation showing no signs of ending, Perle said the biggest mistake in post-war policy "was the failure to turn Iraq back to the Iraqis more or less immediately.

Wow, now even Richard Perle recognizes the war is a disaster. But the President needn't worry, Slyhunter still is a believer.

[mactastic]

Perle must be a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind and some weird sexual habits. Plus he looks a little French, don't you think?

I wonder when the official smear campaign begins...

[numediaman]

Perle must be a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind and some weird sexual habits. Plus he looks a little French, don't you think?

I wonder when the official smear campaign begins...

Don't forget that Perle is best of buds with Chalabi. I wonder if he's a little POed over l'affaire Chalabi.

[zimv20]

Richard Perle, until recently a powerful adviser to U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, described U.S. policy in post-war Iraq as a failure.

!!!!!!!

interesting times, indeed

[IJ Reilly]

So, what they say about "success having many fathers" is true...!

[numediaman]

Christopher Allbritton is back in Iraq. For those who don't know CA, he has run the "Back to Iraq" blog since the start of the war. He is an independent journalist, and his early impressions of the war were always interesting.

Anyway, he has traveled back to Iraq:

Greetings from Baghdad

BAGHDAD — Well, I guess I should call this blog Back in Iraq again… I’m in Baghdad as I write this and glad to be here. The last few days hanging fire in Amman were tedious. But at least it gave me time to restock, clear my head and screw my courage to the sticking post. And so here I am.

First of all, the flight from Amman to Baghdad was startingly normal. A couple of flight attendants served refreshments and vile airline food, just like a normal flight. Except this one was in an all-white South African-registered plane (the irony should be lost on no one, there) and populated by a bunch of Parsons, KBR and other assorted contractors. I’m not going to call them mercenaries at this point, since the guys I talked to were all there to work at oil refineries or on cellular services. Hardly the mercenary types.

The landing was anything but typical though. After a normal flight, we went into a tight, corkscrew dive that sent your stomach up into your throat — and in the case of two passengers, out their mouths and into their laps. It’s a vomit-comet experience. But if you like roller coasters in a sealed container where you can’t really see anything, it’s a lot of fun. Just don’t think about the very real threat of shoulder-mounted SAMs . . .

. . . I’m staying in one of the hotels near the al Hamra, the local journo-hang. I can’t speak for the rest of Baghdad, but this part of the capital is not wracked by chaos or violence. There aren’t many happy glances directed my way or anything like that, however. Instead I sensed more a resigned feeling. Here’s another one, they seemed to be thinking. So far, the Iraqis are not hostile so much as impatient and annoyed.

Night is falling and things may change then, however. And S. told me, as we snacked on schwarma on the street near my hotel, that tonight would be the first and last night we would eat at a sidewalk cafe. “It’s too dangerous,” he said, “We will eat inside or take it back to the hotel from now on.”

Across the street, the Americans had staked out an unfinished 8-story building and sandbagged it to turn it into a very tall bunker. Machine guns bristled from strategic sightline points, and two soldiers peered down through field glasses at us as we sipped Pepsis in plastic chairs. The night air was pleasant and cool. I waved to my new neighbors up in their machine gun nests. They didn’t wave back.

Then a couple of days later . . .

BAGHDAD — The blast came at 8:20 a.m. Tuesday morning. A car bomb exploded about 100m from my hotel. The sound of the explosion and the concussion wave buckled and rattled the windows of the Internet cafe where I was doing some last minute email before S., my driver, was to pick me up at 8:30. The bomb was at the front door of the al-Karma hotel next door to mine, and shattered the guardhouse that S. and I drive through several times a day. But this morning, S., who is usually a few minutes early, and his sleek, black BMW were nowhere to be found.

Four people were injured and one boy, Ali Abbas, an 11-year-old kid who worked at the Fils Take Away restaurant selling cigarettes and chattering with anyone who would listen, died. He had brought me water on my first night in Baghdad . . .

. . . In her grief, an older woman in a black abaya focused on an the biggest target:

“The Americans did it!” she wailed. “We didn’t have car bombs before, terror before,” she continued. “Everything came with the Coalition forces.

“We don’t like the occupation. Please leave, we don’t like you. “

S. finally showed up at around 6:30 p.m. We had been missing each other all day. I was glad to see him after what people cynically say is just another day in Baghdad.

Photo by Christopher Allbritton – http://www.back-to-iraq.com/

[Voltron]

One thing we've learned about Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein is that the former dictator was a diligent record keeper. Coalition forces have found--literally--millions of documents. These papers are still being sorted, translated and absorbed, but they are already turning up new facts about Saddam's links to terrorism.
We realize that even raising this subject now is politically incorrect. It is an article of faith among war opponents that there were no links whatsoever--that "secular" Saddam and fundamentalist Islamic terrorists didn't mix. But John Ashcroft's press conference yesterday reminds us that the terror threat remains, and it seems especially irresponsible for journalists not to be open to new evidence. If the CIA was wrong about WMD, couldn't it have also missed Saddam's terror links?

One striking bit of new evidence is that the name Ahmed Hikmat Shakir appears on three captured rosters of officers in Saddam Fedayeen, the elite paramilitary group run by Saddam's son Uday and entrusted with doing much of the regime's dirty work. Our government sources, who have seen translations of the documents, say Shakir is listed with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.

This matters because if Shakir was an officer in the Fedayeen, it would establish a direct link between Iraq and the al Qaeda operatives who planned 9/11. Shakir was present at the January 2000 al Qaeda "summit" in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, at which the 9/11 attacks were planned. The U.S. has never been sure whether he was there on behalf of the Iraqi regime or whether he was an Iraqi Islamicist who hooked up with al Qaeda on his own.

As others have reported, at the time of the summit Shakir was working at the Kuala Lumpur airport, having obtained the job through an Iraqi intelligence agent at the Iraqi embassy. The four-day al Qaeda meeting was attended by Khalid al Midhar and Nawaz al Hamzi, who were at the controls of American Airlines Flight 77 when it crashed into the Pentagon. Also on hand were Ramzi bin al Shibh, the operational planner of the 9/11 attacks, and Tawfiz al Atash, a high-ranking Osama bin Laden lieutenant and mastermind of the USS Cole bombing. Shakir left Malaysia on January 13, four days after the summit concluded.

That's not the only connection between Shakir and al Qaeda. The Iraqi next turned up in Qatar, where he was arrested on September 17, 2001, four days after the attacks in the U.S. A search of his pockets and apartment uncovered such information as the phone numbers of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers' safe houses and contacts. Also found was information pertaining to a 1995 al Qaeda plot to blow up a dozen commercial airliners over the Pacific.

After a brief detention, our friends the Qataris inexplicably released Shakir, and on October 21 he flew to Amman, Jordan. The Jordanians promptly arrested him, but under pressure from the Iraqis (and Amnesty International, which questioned his detention) and with the acquiescence of the CIA, they let him go after three months. He was last seen heading home to Baghdad.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110005133

[mactastic]

If Saddam was so efficient at keeping records, don't you think we would have found evidence of his WMD efforts by now? You can't have it both ways you know....

[Voltron]

If Saddam was so efficient at keeping records, don't you think we would have found evidence of his WMD efforts by now? You can't have it both ways you know....
Unless he destroyed those records on purpose.

[skunk]

Unless he destroyed those records on purpose.
Why on earth would he do that?

[numediaman]

Why on earth would he do that?

Saddam is actually a double agent for the Iranian government. He has been working with Ahmed Chalabi and the Iranians in an attempt to get the Americans to invade in order to drive up real estate values and get a Starbucks franchise. After the war, Saddam and Richard Perle will be making lattes for American tourists and raking in the dough.

EDIT: A little up the page, you will see that I posted a few paragraphs from the Back to Iraq (www.back-to-iraq.com/) blog. Mac users should check out the blog. Click the "photography" link and you'll be transported to Christopher's .Mac pages. Good use of .Mac, if you ask me.

[blackfox]

So was this filed under "T" for terrorist, "A" for Al Qeada, or "N" for not bloody likely?

[skunk]

I have just heard a VERY interesting interview on BBC HardTalk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/04/hardtalk/drielsma27may.ram

The new Iraqi Defence Minister Allawi discussing Iraq's prospects with Tim Sebastian. Being asked some pretty tough questions, and saying the US committed "gross blunders", the neo-cons totally screwed up the planning, and much, much more. Have a listen. It's VERY informative.

Sorry, wrong link. Trying to fix it. :o
Mind you, it's still a good interview. ;)
They haven't streamed it yet... :(

[numediaman]

I have just heard a VERY interesting interview on BBC HardTalk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/04/hardtalk/drielsma27may.ram

The new Iraqi Defence Minister Allawi discussing Iraq's prospects with Tim Sebastian. Being asked some pretty tough questions, and saying the US committed "gross blunders", the neo-cons totally screwed up the planning, and much, much more. Have a listen. It's VERY informative.

Sorry, wrong link. Trying to fix it. :o
Mind you, it's still a good interview. ;)
They haven't streamed it yet... :(

Good interview. Though I will admit that the two guys remind me of some my friends and I after a few good glasses of vintage port. Rather slow and bit slurred. (And more than a little confrontational! But great fun!)

[skunk]

Good interview. Though I will admit that the two guys remind me of some my friends and I after a few good glasses of vintage port. Rather slow and bit slurred. (And more than a little confrontational! But great fun!)
The one I listened to has still not been streamed, but I'll post a link when it is: it really IS worth a listen. :rolleyes:

[Voltron]

Yesterday, there was news of a truce brokered between the coalition and this murderous thug terrorist al-Sadr in Najaf. The deal was that we would pull out in exchange for the Islamic terrorists laying down their weapons and letting the Iraqi police back in to restore order.

This was done to avoid further fighting and bloodshed. In short, we were being nice. Just like all the other times during the war in Iraq, we are trying to be politically correct. So what did all of that generosity and negotiating get us?

Today, insurgents attacked U.S. forces and a U.S. military base outside Najaf. The base was hit with nine mortars, while U.S. forces near Kufa were attacked with rocket-propelled grenades. This is the tanks we get for showing restraint. When are we going to learn our lesson here?

It used to be the policy of the United States that we did not negotiate with terrorists. There is a reason. That reason is that they cannot be trusted. It's time to end this business with these insurgents once and for all. And the way to do that is with overwhelming military force, casualties be damned. It's time to send a message, and speak a language they will understand.

Bush should stop nibbling around the edges and get down to business. The United States military should immediately start attacking military targets in Najaf until it receives the unconditional surrender of al-Sadr and his goons. Only then will peace be achieved, through a military victory.

Don't negotiate with terrorist even if they do honor it that would be allowing a terrorist to win. Besides in most cases they do the foot in the door scenario. ie they negotiate to get you to open the door wider so they can slam it wide open in your face. Because they want all or nothing and only pretend to comprimise.

Same can be said for Hamas and the PLO in Pallestine.

[skunk]

Don't negotiate with terrorist even if they do honor it that would be allowing a terrorist to win. Besides in most cases they do the foot in the door scenario. ie they negotiate to get you to open the door wider so they can slam it wide open in your face. Because they want all or nothing and only pretend to comprimise.

Same can be said for Hamas and the PLO in Pallestine.
Neither your link nor your comment are worthy of a response.

[numediaman]

Neither your link nor your comment are worthy of a response.

Actually, I think Slyhunter has hit upon an issue that might split the right.

In his efforts to put a happy face on the situation in Iraq, Bush has authorized the military to surrender cities to the militants. The situation in Fallujah is like Taliban Afghaistan -- and now Najah has been left to the militants. (I hate the term "insurgents" -- it could easily be "resistance".)

The right is not going to be happy that yet another Republican administration has given up the field to the enemy (as Nixon did to the North Vietnamese), while the left continues to be unhappy about the war, in general.

Today's Tribune and other papers carry pictures of happy Iraqis heading to Najaf to support Al Sadr, and celebrate his "victory" over the Americans. Here is a picture from the AP that appeared in the San Diego Union Tribune (a very conservative paper) showing people in a bus heading to Najaf:

[skunk]

I have just heard a VERY interesting interview on BBC HardTalk
Got it wrong last time. Now the BBC have streamed it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3756915.stm


The new Iraqi Defence Minister Ali Allawi discussing Iraq's prospects with Tim Sebastian. Being asked some pretty tough questions, and saying the US committed "gross blunders", the neo-cons totally screwed up the planning, and much, much more. Have a listen. It's VERY informative.

Link fixed :rolleyes:

[blackfox]

Skunk, I keep getting a "page not found" when clicking on the video link...anyone else?

[skunk]

Skunk, I keep getting a "page not found" when clicking on the video link...anyone else?
I don't know if this will work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3756915.stm
go to the page and click on Video>Latest Programme

Works for me. :confused:

[blackfox]

I don't know if this will work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3756915.stm
go to the page and click on Video>Latest Programme

Works for me. :confused:
Tried that previously...I guess I'll periodically check back...thanks anyway...perhaps it is a US thing (maybe it is being blocked, a conspiracy me thinks... :rolleyes: )

[numediaman]

I don't know if this will work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3756915.stm
go to the page and click on Video>Latest Programme

Works for me. :confused:

Works for me, too. But you posted some other interview before, didn't you? Two old guys. Very boring, very British. ;)

[skunk]

Two old guys. Very boring, very British. ;)
Well, it seemed informative at the time.... :o

[wowser]

Works for me, too. But you posted some other interview before, didn't you? Two old guys. Very boring, very British. ;)

you can't be on about the Tariq Ali / Christopher Hitchens thing, cos that was great

[skunk]

you can't be on about the Tariq Ali / Christopher Hitchens thing, cos that was great
Nah. One was with Chalabi's British adviser, the other was with Ali Allawi, Iraqi Defence Minister and cousin of the just-announced PM.

[wowser]

Nah. One was with Chalabi's British adviser, the other was with Ali Allawi, Iraqi Defence Minister and cousin of the just-announced PM.

Ah. There are always good interviews on the democracynow.org website. :)

[numediaman]

Berg interviewed for Michael Moore film

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (AP) -- In an unused interview shot in Virginia for Michael Moore's latest film, the American who was beheaded in Iraq said he was concerned about security there as he prepared to seek work as an independent businessman, his family said Saturday.

Moore's crew shot the 16-minute interview with Nicholas Berg during an Iraqi business conference in Arlington, Virginia, on December 4, said his brother, David Berg.

Nicholas Berg's decapitated body was found in Baghdad on May 8, and a video of his killing was posted on an Islamic militant Web site several days later.

Moore confirmed Thursday that he had footage of Berg -- shot for his film "Fahrenheit 9/11," which is critical of President Bush -- but said he would share it only with the family.

Moore sent copies of the footage to David Berg in New Jersey and sister Sara Berg in Virginia. Their parents will see the video after returning to their suburban home from vacation, David Berg said.

Sara Berg said her brother told Moore's crew he was nervous about his safety in Iraq.

"He recognized it was a concern, and he kind of pointed out that he'd worked in difficult situations before," Sara Berg said from her home in Virginia Beach. "It's definitely something that he didn't shrug off."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/29/moore.berg.ap/index.html

[IJ Reilly]

Of all the private contractors in Iraq, why did Moore interview Berg?

[zimv20]

Of all the private contractors in Iraq, why did Moore interview Berg?
befriends a terrorist on a bus ride to kansas, interviewed by michael moore, ends up on a videotape many believe to be his lifeless body being beheaded by men who may or may not be arab.

what _is_ going on w/ this guy?

[Sayhey]

I was just reading Josh Marshall on his take on Bush's speech and the shambles of his Iraq policy and I thought I'd share his insightful remarks.

The most salient point to emerge from the president's recent speech on Iraq was the new rationale he put forward for continuing to support him and his policies: effective management of his own failures.

Consider the trajectory.

Originally, the case for war was built on claims about the Iraqi regime's possession of weapons of mass destruction and its support for terrorist groups like al qaida. To a lesser degree, but with increasing force as these other rationales faded way, the case was made on the basis of democratizing and liberalizing Iraq.

As that prospect too has become increasingly distant and improbable, President Bush has taken a fundamentally different tack. His emphasis now is seldom on what good might come of his Iraq policy but rather the dire consequences of its unmitigated 'failure' or its premature abandonment.

In other words, the president now argues that he is best equipped to guard the country from the full brunt of the consequences of his own misguided actions, managerial incompetence and dishonesty.

Read the whole column here (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/).

[Zaid]

Seems like plenty of Iraqis are disillusioned with the US.




"The Americans promised to improve our conditions," student Nura Ahmed said, "but we think they were all lying."

The problem with the Shura project is one that bedevils much of the country: corruption.

The culprit, according to Iraqi education officials, is a former teacher who persuaded the U.S. military to give her an office and let her choose which schools should be refurbished, and by which contractors. The woman, identified as Ezra Abdul Razak, allegedly demanded bribes from the contractors. She has since vanished, and an Iraqi judge is investigating the case.

Meanwhile, the contractors have not been paid and have halted work on Shura and nearly 100 other schools.

The Al Kake company is one of the contractors owed money — more than $500,000. It suspended work on 13 schools, including Shura. Dakhil Muhsin Mohammed, Al Kake's president, said that even though the fraud appeared to have been committed by Iraqis, the Americans bore responsibility.

"You occupy this country, you should do your utmost to make sure things work," said Mohammed, who has a certificate of appreciation from the U.S. military prominently displayed in his office. "I don't blame people when they criticize the Americans for not doing things that are tangible."

Abbas Musawi is one of those critics. Last year, the member of the Ghazaliya neighborhood council praised the U.S. occupiers so vocally that he was the target of an unsuccessful assassination attempt by insurgents.

"I was so enthusiastic," he recalled. "I was always telling the people that all you have to do is be patient, because these people are going to rebuild this country."

A year later, Musawi says he's seen almost no changes. He has resigned in disgust from his post in a central organization of neighborhood councils. He displays a photograph of radical anti-American cleric Muqtada Sadr outside his shop and proudly pointed to the other pictures lining the streets of the neighborhood. When U.S. troops tore the photos down after Sadr's armed supporters fought them in the area last month, Musawi helped replace the pictures with hundreds of new ones.

"Nothing has changed in this neighborhood," said Musawi, driving past acres of smoldering roadside trash. "They've moved tanks and weapons thousands of miles and they can't bring trucks to take this away?"

Later, Musawi sat in the office of Shura's headmaster and his colleague on the Ghazaliya council, Ibrahim Mohammed Abdullah, and inspected its empty door frames and crumbling tiles.

The men complained that the occupation authority did not seek enough input from Iraqis, who could guide them through the corruption-riddled world of local contracting. They rattled off stories of the graft that has infected the reconstruction process, including a local project in which the contractor did not repair sewer lines yet pocketed $25,000 from the Americans.

"We're talking about schools and sewage," Musawi said. "Wait until we reach the phase of rebuilding the Iraqi Ministry of Defense. There will be weapons contracts. Imagine the corruption."

In her classroom, Abbood said Iraqis would focus on results.

"Our traditions and religion teach us to be a peace-loving society," she said. "We will be grateful to those who help us. But those who only bring terror and killing, beware."

[numediaman]

You can join, but you can never leave:

Army Expanding 'Stop-Loss' Program

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Army will prevent soldiers in units set to deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan from leaving the service at the end of their terms, a top general said Wednesday.

The announcement, an expansion of an Army program called "stop-loss," means that thousands of soldiers who had expected to retire or otherwise leave the military will have to stay on for the duration of their deployment to those combat zones.

The expansion affects units that are 90 days away or less from deploying, said Lt. Gen. Frank L. "Buster" Hagenbeck, the Army's deputy chief of staff for personnel. Commanders have the ability to make exceptions for soldiers with special circumstances; otherwise, soldiers won't be able to leave the service or transfer from their unit until they return to their home base after the deployment.

The move will allow the Army to keep units together as they deploy, Hagenbeck said. Units with new recruits or recently transferred soldiers would not perform as well because the troops would not have had time to work together.

"The rationale is to have cohesive, trained units going to war together," Hagenbeck said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_military_3

[Frohickey]

US Military mobilization (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/glossary/m/bldef04106.htm)
Stages:
a. selective mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress and/or the President to mobilize Reserve Component units, individual ready reservists, and the resources needed for their support to meet the requirements of a domestic emergency that is not the result of an enemy attack

b. partial mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress (up to full mobilization) or by the President (not more than 1,000,000 for not more than 24 consecutive months) to mobilize Ready Reserve Component units, individual reservists, and the resources needed for their support to meet the requirements of a war or other national emergency involving an external threat to the national security

c. full mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress and the President to mobilize all Reserve Component units in the existing approved force structure, all individual reservists, retired military personnel, and the resources needed for their support to meet the requirements of a war or other national emergency involving an external threat to the national security. Reserve personnel can be placed on active duty for the duration of the emergency plus six months

d. total mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress and the President to organize and/or generate additional units or personnel, beyond the existing force structure, and the resources needed for their support, to meet the total requirements of a war or other national emergency involving an external threat to the national security.

=====

We are in b.partial mobilization. Lets hope that we don't get to stage c, because we are probably going to need the draft at that point. And if we get to stage d, we are really in big trouble. Stage d is where we were at in World War 2. :eek:

[Chip NoVaMac]

US Military mobilization (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/glossary/m/bldef04106.htm)
Stages:
a. selective mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress and/or the President to mobilize Reserve Component units, individual ready reservists, and the resources needed for their support to meet the requirements of a domestic emergency that is not the result of an enemy attack

b. partial mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress (up to full mobilization) or by the President (not more than 1,000,000 for not more than 24 consecutive months) to mobilize Ready Reserve Component units, individual reservists, and the resources needed for their support to meet the requirements of a war or other national emergency involving an external threat to the national security

c. full mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress and the President to mobilize all Reserve Component units in the existing approved force structure, all individual reservists, retired military personnel, and the resources needed for their support to meet the requirements of a war or other national emergency involving an external threat to the national security. Reserve personnel can be placed on active duty for the duration of the emergency plus six months

d. total mobilization--Expansion of the active Armed Forces resulting from action by Congress and the President to organize and/or generate additional units or personnel, beyond the existing force structure, and the resources needed for their support, to meet the total requirements of a war or other national emergency involving an external threat to the national security.

=====

We are in b.partial mobilization. Lets hope that we don't get to stage c, because we are probably going to need the draft at that point. And if we get to stage d, we are really in big trouble. Stage d is where we were at in World War 2. :eek:

Well thanks to some bone headed moves we may see stage d sooner than we think.

[zimv20]

just heard on abcnews: air force reserve recruitment is down over 20%, overall reserve recruitment is also down

[Voltron]

just heard on abcnews: air force reserve recruitment is down over 20%, overall reserve recruitment is also down
Yet the Army recruitment statistics are up.
In March 2003, the Army recruited 6,635 people out of a goal of 6,540, Alexander said. The Army's goal for 2003 is 73,800 active duty soldiers, and 26,400 reserve soldiers.
http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/news/2003/4877.html

It is understandable that those who want to join a part time military force won't join because currently it is not part time.

[Frohickey]

Well thanks to some bone headed moves we may see stage d sooner than we think.

If we get to stage d, its because we did not go to stage c soon enough.

[Voltron]

This site will probably be gone real soon.
http://siteinstitute.org/

NEW VIDEO OF ATTACK ON HUMVEE IN IRAQ

A new video of an attack on a Humvee has been posted to Jihadist website with the brief message telling readers to "Enjoy [savor] the killing of the infidels in Iraq." [read more]
http://siteinstitute.org/exposing.asp?id=234

Given the heightened alert issued by the government on Wednesday, we have decided to release a partial translation of a past issue of the Al-Battar Magazine, originally released in March 2004. This issue in particular discusses how to choose targets inside cities, such as economic and diplomatic targets, and expounds upon the pros and cons of such attacks. It also ranks human targets by order of importance, placing Americans as the top targets. [read more]
http://siteinstitute.org/exposing.asp?id=229

It was just posted on FOX news so is extremely bogged down and may completly shut down soon.

http://www.siteinstitute.org/videos/site_iraq_humvee.wmv

[Voltron]

zim your signature

"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." -- G.W. Bush, meeting Iraqi amputees at the White House on May 25, 2004

note it says Hand cut off not hands cut off. Thus it is not as big of a mis-statement as "I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it."

[IJ Reilly]

just heard on abcnews: air force reserve recruitment is down over 20%, overall reserve recruitment is also down

I thought I'd heard somewhere that the Marines are still doing quite well in recruitment.

[Voltron]

I thought I'd heard somewhere that the Marines are still doing quite well in recruitment.
People who join the reserves of any force typically don't actually want to be called up to duty so would be less likely to join. However the full time services are all exceeding their quotas.

[numediaman]

Since the Bush administration continues to insist that the Iraq War has something to do with "the war on terrorism", I figured this would as good a spot as any to post this:

Facing Defeat?
Justice Department lawyers, said to be pessimistic about winning upcoming Supreme Court cases on enemy combatants and Guantanamo prisoners, are now scrambling to bring a case against alleged 'dirty bomber' Jose Padilla

WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Updated: 5:23 p.m. ET June 10, 2004

June 9 - Justice Department lawyers, fearing a crushing defeat before the U.S. Supreme Court in the next few weeks, are scrambling to develop a conventional criminal case against “enemy combatant” Jose Padilla that would charge him with providing “material support” to Al Qaeda, NEWSWEEK has learned.

The prospective case against Padilla would rely in part on material seized by the FBI in Afghanistan—principally an Al Qaeda “new applicant form” that, authorities said, the former Chicago gang member filled out in July 2000 to enter a terrorist training camp run by Osama bin Laden's organization.

But officials acknowledge that the charges could well be difficult to bring and that none of Padilla’s admissions to interrogators—including an apparent confession that he met with top Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah and agreed to undertake a terror mission—would ever be admissible in court.

Even more significant, administration officials now concede that the principal claim they have been making about Padilla ever since his detention—that he was dispatched to the United States for the specific purpose of setting off a radiological “dirty bomb”—has turned out to be wrong and most likely can never be used against him in court.

The reassessments of Padilla come amid a growing sense of gloom within Justice that the Supreme Court is likely to rule decisively against the Bush administration not just in the Padilla case but in two other pivotal cases in the war on terror: one involving the detention of another “enemy combatant,” Yasir Hamden, and another involving the treatment of Al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. In the Padilla and Hambdi cases, the administration is arguing it has the right to hold the two U.S. citizens indefinitely without trial. In the Guantanamo case, the administration argues that foreign nationals being interrogated there do not have the right to challenge their detention in federal courts.

Lawyers within the Justice Department are now bracing for defeat in both the enemy-combatant and Guantanamo cases, both of which are expected to be decided before the Supreme Court ends its term at the end of the month, according to one conservative and politically well-connected lawyer. “They are 99 percent certain they are going to lose,” said the lawyer, who asked not to be identified. “It’s a very sobering realization.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5175105/site/newsweek/site/newsweek/

[skunk]

Could be some REALLY expensive law suits coming up then, I guess :eek:

[IJ Reilly]

“It’s a very sobering realization.”

... that they have failed to pack the courts with enough right wing activist judges to get their way every time. I can just hear it now, "Writing the minority, Justice Anton Scalia sharply questioned the majority's patriotism and sanity ..."

[mactastic]

... that they have failed to pack the courts with enough right wing activist judges to get their way every time. I can just hear it now, "Writing the minority, Justice Anton Scalia sharply questioned the majority's patriotism and sanity ..."

Never fear, the guy who helped write the infamous 'torture memo' is now a Circuit Court judge. One small step from the Supremes....

[numediaman]

Father Andrew Greeley. So, will the right label him a Godless Communist?

Is U.S. like Germany of the '30s?

June 11, 2004

BY ANDREW GREELEY

BERLIN -- I can understand, my German friend said, why Germans voted for Hitler in 1933 -- though he did not receive a majority of the vote. The Weimar Republic was weak and incompetent. The Great Depression had ruined the nation's war-devastated economy. People were bitter because they thought their leaders had betrayed them in the war. They wanted revenge for the humiliation of Versailles. Hitler promised strong leadership and a new beginning. But why did they continue to support that group of crazy drug addicts, thugs, killers and madmen? . . .

. . . Today many Americans celebrate a ''strong'' leader who, like Woodrow Wilson, never wavers, never apologizes, never admits a mistake, never changes his mind, a leader with a firm ''Christian'' faith in his own righteousness. These Americans are delighted that he ignores the rest of the world and punishes the World Trade Center terrorism in Iraq. Mr. Bush is our kind of guy.

He is not another Hitler. Yet there is a certain parallelism. They have in common a demagogic appeal to the worst side of a country's heritage in a crisis. Bush is doubtless sincere in his vision of what is best for America. So too was Hitler. The crew around the president -- Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft, Karl Rove, the ''neo-cons'' like Paul Wolfowitz -- are not as crazy perhaps as Himmler and Goering and Goebbels. Yet like them, they are practitioners of the Big Lie -- weapons of mass destruction, Iraq democracy, only a few ''bad apples.''

Hitler's war was quantitatively different from the Iraq war, but qualitatively both were foolish, self-destructive and criminally unjust. This is a time of great peril in American history because a phony patriotism and an America-worshipping religion threaten the authentic American genius of tolerance and respect for other people.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel11.html

[wowser]

zim your signature

note it says Hand cut off not hands cut off. Thus it is not as big of a mis-statement as "I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it."

Yes, but i think you'll still find that the Bush-isms still outweigh the (Kerr-isms?) by about 99 to 1

[Voltron]

Yes, but i think you'll still find that the Bush-isms still outweigh the (Kerr-isms?) by about 99 to 1
I'll take quality over quantity :p

[wowser]

Well, I don't need to remind anybody that the president makes the finest and funniest guffs. Did you see the Onions this week? There's a funny thing about Kerry wanting to have the 1969 version of Kerry as his running mate.

"Yes, my running mate has made remarks that have been critical of certain decisions made in Washington," Kerry said. "He and I do not agree on every point. But may I remind you that this man voluntarily enlisted to serve in Vietnam? He didn't have to go to war, but he chose to go, to serve his country. He got shot at and wounded. He could have died. Some nights he was scared, but he just kept on going, kept fighting with his fellow soldiers, fighting for America." ;)

[Frohickey]

Father Andrew Greeley. So, will the right label him a Godless Communist?

BY ANDREW GREELEY

BERLIN -- I can understand, my German friend said, why Germans voted for Hitler in 1933 -- though he did not receive a majority of the vote.

I guess this should also be the part where you say that Thomas Jefferson, who did not receive a majority of the vote in the 1800 elections has a certain parallelism with Hilter too. :eek: ;)

[Voltron]

You do realize, don't you, that American forces in Iraq haven't been looking for Saddam's weapons of mass destruction for as long as Hillary Clinton looked for her "missing" Rose Law Firm billing records.

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

[skunk]

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
Has this got anything to do with Iraq?

[Voltron]

Has this got anything to do with Iraq?
It is the link that contains the quote


You do realize, don't you, that American forces in Iraq haven't been looking for Saddam's weapons of mass destruction for as long as Hillary Clinton looked for her "missing" Rose Law Firm billing records.

which you would've demanded I provided had I not.

[skunk]

It is the link that contains the quote
I realize that. I still don't see what Hillary Clinton's paperwork has to do with Bush twisting the intelligence on Iraq.

[Voltron]

I realize that. I still don't see what Hillary Clinton's paperwork has to do with Bush twisting the intelligence on Iraq.
Democrats had more patients waiting on Hillary to lie and twist pretending to look for that work when it was contained in her own office for over 2 years, wouldn't one think it would take at least that long to search an entire country?

[skunk]

Democrats had more patients waiting on Hillary to lie and twist pretending to look for that work when it was contained in her own office for over 2 years, wouldn't one think it would take at least that long to search an entire country?
The difference is, I would imagine, that Hillary doesn't want to find the papers, whereas the Administration does want to find the WMDs.

[IJ Reilly]

Once again, you guys are allowing yourselves to be sucked into responding to pointless voltranisms, which sadly, aren't even original to him.

Ignore list, my friends. Ignore list... :)

[Neserk]

Democrats had more patients waiting on Hillary to lie and twist pretending to look for that work when it was contained in her own office for over 2 years, wouldn't one think it would take at least that long to search an entire country?

Wow. How can you compare the two? Lying about going to war and possibly lying about papers? Need to get the priorities straight. One ends in the murder of over 13,000 people, the other may be a small amount of money stolen. Hmmmm... Definite murder on one hand, *maybe* money stolen on another...

[skunk]

What was the topic again? :rolleyes:

[skunk]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=533058

US paranoid and isolated as Green Zone policy fails

By Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad

19 June 2004

An Iraqi friend, who feared for his life because he was close to the Americans, used to live inside the Green Zone, the heavily protected area in central Baghdad where the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) has its headquarters. One day he fell into conversation with an American soldier guarding one of the gates. The soldier said he was of Iraqi origin and could speak Arabic. He added that security was not quite as tight as it looked since prostitutes were regular visitors to the zone.

My friend, a little alarmed, decided to investigate. He went to a house which was being used as a brothel. He says: "In the toilet I found that the women were writing pro-Baath party, anti-American and patriotic slogans with their lipstick on the mirrors." Their clients could not tell what they had written because it was in Arabic.

The story illustrates the way in which the CPA officials became wholly isolated from the real opinions of Iraqis. Arriving in the wake of the war last year they cut themselves off inside Saddam Hussein's old palace complex. They were as remote from the lives of ordinary Iraqis as if they lived in a Martian spaceship which had temporarily touched down in the centre of Baghdad.

This isolation helps explain the CPA's repeated mistakes. When it arrived 14 months ago Iraqis were evenly divided on whether they had been liberated or occupied by the US. The CPA's own poll shows that just 2 per cent of Iraqis say they feel liberated and 92 per cent say they are occupied. The CPA may be the least successful organisation ever created by the US government. It is certainly one of the strangest. "It is really like living in an open prison,' said one CPA official.

Much of the security is in the hands of private companies. One day I had an interview with an Iraqi minister inside the zone. We had arranged it over the phone. The meeting never took place. I was first asked who I was by a friendly Nepalese soldier, then questioned by a nervous Algerian and finally stopped by a paunchy security man who, from his accent, came from Mississippi or Alabama.

"We can't let in journalists," he said in a suspicious and hostile tone. "They are a security threat." I asked exactly whom they had threatened. The security man said: "They killed the president of Afghanistan."

It turned out he had read somewhere of Ahmed Shah Massood, the Afghan warlord, being assassinated by two Moroccans with Belgian passports pretending to be a television crew. I said these were hardly typical of the journalistic profession but he was unconvinced.

Uncertain where real threats come from, the guards of the CPA - both regular US army and private security firms - treat all Iraqis as equally suspicious. According to one former Iraqi minister a suicide bomber was able to blow up Izzedin Salim, the head of Iraq's Governing Council, on 17 May after his convoy had been prevented from passing through US security into the Green Zone because a vital document was missing. His vehicle turned around giving the bomber his opportunity.

The difficulty getting into the Green Zone is less than that of CPA officials getting out. It is now truly dangerous for them to do so but most remained cocooned behind the walls even when it was less so.

One official remarked: "What shocks me is the number of people in the CPA who never even want to see the city where they live." Even the plastic cutlery in the dining hall was imported and almost ran out in April when insurgents destroyed the convoys bringing it in.

Presiding over the CPA until 30 June when power is supposedly handed over to an Iraqi government, is Paul Bremer. He has remained a remote figure to his own staff as well as Iraqis. When a rocket hit the Republican Palace, where the CPA has its headquarters earlier this month, officials wondered if he would make a reassuring visit, but were not entirely surprised by his absence.

It is still unclear why Mr Bremer and the CPA showed such poor judgement. The swift overthrow of Saddam Hussein showed few Iraqis supported him. But Mr Bremer disbanded the army and persecuted the Baath party pushing their members towards armed resistance.

By last summer he had alienated the Sunni Arabs (20 per cent of Iraqis) and by this spring he had infuriated the Shia (60 per cent). He turned the hitherto marginal Shia cleric Muqtada Sadr into a respected martyr and the hillbilly city of Fallujah into a patriotic symbol.

Many able and intelligent CPA officials are mystified by the extent of the failure, perhaps the greatest in American foreign policy. "Bremer stuffed his office full of neo-conservatives and political appointees who knew nothing of the country or the region," one said. "They actively avoided anybody who did."

[mactastic]

That's about what you'd expect from a group that couldn't be bothered to ask somebody who had experience in nation building to help them out. They tried to re-invent the wheel and came out with a square.

[zimv20]

journalists killed the president of afghanistan? classic.

[mactastic]

journalists killed the president of afghanistan? classic.

Not journalists. People posing as journalists.

[Voltron]

The assertion that Saddam Hussein had no Weapons of Mass Destruction prior to last year’s liberation has been rendered absurd – by United Nations weapons inspectors.

Demetrius Perricos, acting chairman of UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), recently disclosed that his inspectors have been busily tracking shipments of illicit Iraqi WMD components around the world.

The Associated Press announced that UNMOVIC inspectors have found dozens of engines from banned al-Samoud 2 (SA2) missiles, which were shipped out of Iraq as “scrap metal.” Most recently, UNMOVIC agents found 20 SA-2 engines in Jordan, along with a great deal of other WMD materials. Officials discovered an identical engine in a Rotterdam port in the Netherlands and believe as many as a dozen extra SA-2 missile engines alone have been transported out of Iraq and remain unaccounted for. Inspectors believe at least some of these engines have also reached Turkey and hope to search Turkish ports in the near future.

before you jump on the fact that this comes from FrontPage magazine reread the previous paragraph. They are quoting the AP.

Besides the SA-2 engines, inspectors also found Iraqi “dual use” technology in Jordan, items purportedly employed in civilian affairs that can be used to create or enhance deadly weapons systems. The New York Times noted that among those items were “fermenters, a freeze drier, distillation columns, parts of missiles and a reactor vessel - all tools suitable for making biological or chemical weapons.”

UN spokesman Ewen Buchanan put the threat of “dual use” technology into perspective. “You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter,” Buchanan said. “You can also use it to breed anthrax.”

Before the war, Saddam’s regime cast its possession of “dual use” materials in the most innocent light, a ruse familiar to students of the Cold War. UNMOVIC wisely rejected his sunny assessment.

Today, UNMOVIC inspectors are deeply concerned about the possibility of WMD proliferation. A Reuters news story captures their distress:

‘A number of sites which contained dual-use equipment that was previously monitored by UN inspectors has [sic.] been systematically taken apart,’ said Ewen Buchanan, spokesman for the New York-based inspectors. ‘The question this raises is what happened to equipment known to have been there.

‘Where is it now? It's a concern,’ Buchanan asked.

‘The existence of missile engines originating in Iraq among scrap in Europe may affect the accounting of proscribed engines known to have been in Iraq's possession,’ UNMOVIC said.

The report said the U.N. inspectors also found papers showing illegal contracts by Iraq for a missile guidance system, laser ring gyroscopes and a variety of production and testing equipment not previously disclosed.

These revelations came during a closed meeting of the UN Security Council held last Wednesday, June 9. However, the investigations are not new. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) launched its own probe into Iraqi WMD transfers a full six months ago, when a Dutch scrap metal company discovered five pounds of yellowcake uranium ore in Rotterdam. The sample was shipped from Jordan but Jordanian officials said the metal originated in Iraq. (Perhaps this is the yellowcake that atomic sleuth Amb. Joe Wilson insisted Iraq never purchased from Niger.) IAEA Director Mohammed El Baradei warned two months ago that evidence of Saddam’s WMDs is being shipped abroad.

Jordan has been the recipient of Iraqi WMDs in the past. Most recently, Jordan seized 20 tons of chemical weapons while foiling an al-Qaeda plot to kill 80,000 people. The stockpile they uncovered contained 70 different kinds of chemical agents, including Sarin and VX gas. (Remember, last month Iraqi insurgents lobbed two chemical weapons at U.S. troops armed with Sarin and mustard gas.)

On April 17, Jordanian King Abdallah claimed these poisons came from Syria – but experts say Syria only has the capacity to produce small amounts of these weapons, not the 20 tons al-Qaeda possessed. Significantly, David Kay and others have said Syria acted as a depository for Saddam’s WMDs. Former Justice Department official John Loftus has made a compelling case that even more WMDs are presently buried in Syria. And these are merely the latest in a long line of WMD discoveries, inside Iraq and out.

You may be forgiven if this is news to you: The mainstream media have chosen to ignore or downplay the significance of the UN’s vindication of President Bush’s policies. In fact, the predictably left-leaning Reuters news service blamed these WMD shipments…on America. Reuters wrote that “the U.S.-led occupation force” had not adequately “protected sites or items that inspectors tagged before the war because of their potential use in weapons of mass destruction.”

The discovery of banned WMD engines should forever silence those who believe Saddam had no stockpile of weapons, or that all such stockpiles were destroyed before the war. Saddam gassed his own people. He had WMDs that miraculously ended up in the hands of Jordanian al-Qaeda terrorists. And now we find his pre-war armory of chemical and biological weapons, including anthrax agents, is being shipped around the world. The fact that these transfers have taken place in an independent Iraq should only reinforce the righteousness of toppling Saddam. In a post-Saddam Iraq, these weapons are being found in shipyards in the Netherlands and Jordan; had Saddam stayed in power, more and more of them may have ended up in the hands of Osama bin Laden. UNMOVIC’s finding is simply further evidence that Operation Iraqi Freedom was justified – and the opposition was willfully ignorant of the threat Saddam Hussein posed to American security.

FrontPage (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13835)
So where are the unbiased media news reporting on this? :cool:

[mactastic]

So where are the unbiased media news reporting on this? :cool:

Hanging out with Matt Drudge. :p

[zimv20]

Not journalists. People posing as journalists.
from the article:

"We can't let in journalists," he said in a suspicious and hostile tone. "They are a security threat." I asked exactly whom they had threatened. The security man said: "They killed the president of Afghanistan."


he got two things wrong. that wasn't the president of afghanistan who was killed.

[Voltron]

People are depressed, so they need Viagra and other drugs to give them interest in sex," said Talid Abdul-Amir Shebany, a pharmacist who tracks the changing ailments of Iraqis in a worn ledger on his desk. "Viagra sales have at least doubled since the war ended. Lives are not good. There's bombs and tension. When you see bodies and destroyed houses, you have psychological disturbances that affect sexual desire."

Emotional demons and persistent stress have disturbed the rhythm of life, from eating to having sex to strolling along the Tigris. But a burgeoning black market in medicines and increased freedom of expression have allowed Iraqis to experiment with pills and remedies to fix what has gone wrong.

Viagra and its copycats -- Kamagra from India, Novagra from Britain and Vega from Syria -- have been available for several years, but importation was limited, taxed and heavily regulated by the former Iraqi Health Ministry.

Those barriers are gone. Drugs are cheaper -- four Kamagra tablets sell for $2.50 -- and sometimes even women in this tribal, patriarchal society will whisper their husbands' dysfunctions into the pharmacist's ear.

"The Koran does not forbid Viagra," Shebany said. "In Islam, if a man can't sexually satisfy his wife, she can ask for a divorce. Viagra helps prevent this disaster."

The popularity of Viagra points to new wrinkles in Iraqi society. Satellite TV -- forbidden under Saddam Hussein -- is beaming sex and its accouterments into mud-brick huts and marbled mansions. Selling alongside Viagra in many pharmacies are breast-enhancement creams, skin whitening gels and herbal slimming potions. And young Iraqi men -- too poor these days to make suitable husbands -- are trolling discreet red-light districts with condoms and sex pills as prostitution has flourished and become more open under occupation.

"My sales of the Viagra and other sex medicines are much bigger now," said Hamid Baiaty, standing under a fan in the Sadoon Pharmacy. "For young men, the war brought democracy and freedom and more time for sex. The repression is gone. People are getting more open about it, although some still ask for the 'blue tablet' because they're embarrassed."

"Psychologically, there is a need for Viagra and these other things," added Shebany, the pharmacist.

"There are other reasons, too. More and more elderly men are marrying younger women because young men have no jobs and no money and can't afford to get married. And, these days, older men are going to need a little help if they have to satisfy three young wives."


link (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/19/MNGQJ78Q021.DTL&type=printable)
Maybe thats why there are so many young suicidal young men? The old geezers took all the womenhttp://sharevana.com/forums/images/generalsmileys/new_puppy_dog_eyes.gif