Mac-n-Jesus.net [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

Saad

May 15, 2004, 09:32 AM

Early on, in the Old Testament we see the tribe of man splitting into two camps, pro-God and anti-God. We see these camps demonstrated in the lives of Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ishmael , and Jacob and Esau. It is the descendants of Ishmael (along with Esau) who were to become the Arabs. (Actually Ishmeal's daughter married Esau.. gen 25:9 & gen 36:3) The character of Ishmael and his descendants (the Arabians) is accurately and vividly depicted by God... "He shall be as a wild ass among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him" (Gen 16:12).

Wow. Wildly offensive. I thought the christian God loved everyone, and that there was basic good in all men. I guess I was wrong. :)

tov

May 15, 2004, 09:44 AM

God loves you but...

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Ps 79:6 Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.
Rev 16:1 ...pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

stoid

May 15, 2004, 09:45 AM

Wow. Wildly offensive. I thought the christian God loved everyone, and that there was basic good in all men. I guess I was wrong. :)

God does love everyone. He wants everyone to spend eternity with him in paradise rather than in eternal suffering in hell. However, since the the original sin of Adam and Eve, all of mankind in damned to hell. Fortunately though, God had a plan. He sent his only son to live among us, live a perfect life, and die unjustly. With his resurrection from the dead he took all of our sins with him so that we can be in heaven when we die. That is the shortest explanation of my Lutheran Christian belief, now please let's not turn this thread into a religious battle. You can't know for certain if your faith is in vain until you die, until then you must believe!

I like the design of the site. Very simple.

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 11:26 AM

Wow. Wildly offensive. I thought the christian God loved everyone, and that there was basic good in all men. I guess I was wrong. :)

Just as we are seeing that Islam is being perverted (hope that this doesn't push this into a political forum), there are many interpretations of the Word. No mater what religion you are.

The Word is being used in all arenas IMO to push their agenda. Even as a former theology student, I saw that the Word was interpreted to serve what ever purpose that those wanted to take.

This may be offensive to those that believe that the Word is "Word". But they have to admit that the "Word" has been translated by the hand of GOD (or other supreme being), and as such should be viewed with suspect.

The basic tenants are there. We need to work past some of the self-serving aspects.

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 11:35 AM

God does love everyone. He wants everyone to spend eternity with him in paradise rather than in eternal suffering in hell. However, since the the original sin of Adam and Eve, all of mankind in damned to hell. Fortunately though, God had a plan. He sent his only son to live among us, live a perfect life, and die unjustly. With his resurrection from the dead he took all of our sins with him so that we can be in heaven when we die. That is the shortest explanation of my Lutheran Christian belief, now please let's not turn this thread into a religious battle. You can't know for certain if your faith is in vain until you die, until then you must believe!

I like the design of the site. Very simple.

I agree where you are coming from.

I am not trying to put this in to a battle. Just showing that our own beliefs are not always the total answer. Much as as i was growing up, the lack of a "savior" in the Hebrew faith was not a failing, or that belief in Buddha or others were not a failure in the true belief in a "God". They are interruptions of the common "Word".

There are basics like "Do unto others...", He who is without sin...", and even my parents had the saying of "Two wrongs do not make arighT".; hold true no mater what the religion you subscribe to.

Ninja_Turtle

May 15, 2004, 12:18 PM

tov

May 15, 2004, 12:27 PM

forums are all about free speech
so get over it
i believe what i believe
many many people believe Jesus is Savior
and there are good reasons too

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel
and
Reasons by Josh McDowell

i could go on & on...

The Case for Christ records Lee Strobel's attempt to "determine if there's credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God." The book consists primarily of interviews between Strobel (a former legal editor at the Chicago Tribune) and biblical scholars such as Bruce Metzger. Each interview is based on a simple question, concerning historical evidence (for example, "Can the Biographies of Jesus Be Trusted?"), scientific evidence, ("Does Archaeology Confirm or Contradict Jesus' Biographies?"), and "psychiatric evidence" ("Was Jesus Crazy When He Claimed to Be the Son of God?"). Together, these interviews compose a case brief defending Jesus' divinity, and urging readers to reach a verdict of their own...

Evidence That Demands a Verdict By: Josh McDowell
Description: The best-selling defense of Christianity! McDowell presents scholarly, intelligent, and well-grounded answers to challengers of the historical accuracy and integrity of the Bible. His ''reasons to believe'' will intrigue non-believers and give Christians ready explanations for their faith. Valuable for students, pastors, and lay leaders. 387 pages, softcover from Nelson.

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 12:36 PM

ok, im tired of religion trying to be everywhere...im sick of people trying to put god into every hobby there is or any object or club or activity there is, and who do i blame? religious people...religious people are always looking for ways to attract other people to join their religion...it sickens me, personally i dont do that at all, i dont go around telling people to convert to being an Atheist, but seriously when religious people try to take over everything, it sucks the fun out of anything...so stop doing it! and if you do it, stop saying that your always right about everything...seriously i just hate that...so if your going to make a site like this, go ahead, but when you say that your always right and that the world is going to end and all that stuff...its not going to happen...so stop living in your fairy tale and start living the real life...reality

But is this any different from the GLBT (GAY/Lesbian/Bi-sexual/Transgender) SIG? Or or SIG's that are geared towards African-Americans, NASCAR dads, Hebrews, Islamics, Buddhists, or any other special interest group?

Personally I think that the segregation that we do amongst ourselves is leading us to the divide that the will further fracture our nation and the world.

bousozoku

May 15, 2004, 12:43 PM

ok, im tired of religion trying to be everywhere...im sick of people trying to put god into every hobby there is or any object or club or activity there is, and who do i blame? religious people...religious people are always looking for ways to attract other people to join their religion...it sickens me, personally i dont do that at all, i dont go around telling people to convert to being an Atheist, but seriously when religious people try to take over everything, it sucks the fun out of anything...so stop doing it! and if you do it, stop saying that your always right about everything...seriously i just hate that...so if your going to make a site like this, go ahead, but when you say that your always right and that the world is going to end and all that stuff...its not going to happen...so stop living in your fairy tale and start living the real life...reality

Don't get bent out of shape. You cannot stop the stupidity. It's just one more mythology--anyone is free to believe it or not. Personally, I believe that their god would be angry knowing what a joke they've made her out to be.

Be glad that you don't live around here where they push religion in your face constantly. What happened to Freedom of Religion? These people don't realise that it works both ways.

Ninja_Turtle

May 15, 2004, 01:28 PM

ok, i myself have no problem with people believing in what they want to believe, personally, if whatever makes you happy, you do that...its just when you go around preaching that your religion is the best and that it has all the answers, thats what makes me mad and i think it makes others mad aswell. now since this is a forum with freedom of speech, i respect that you made a site devoted to your god and to your favorite computer, but when you start preaching about the "truth" and being always right, that seems a bit 1 sided to me, a little narrow and self centered and ignorant, i think your god would like for you to be more open and accept people different than you and not trying to convert everyone into what you think is right.

Krizoitz

May 15, 2004, 01:33 PM

Don't get bent out of shape. You cannot stop the stupidity.

This is disrespectful and uncalled for.

Be glad that you don't live around here where they push religion in your face constantly. What happened to Freedom of Religion? These people don't realise that it works both ways.
Freedom OF Relgion not Freedom FROM Religion. Frankly I agree with the above poster. How is the attempt to spread your belief in God any different than peoples attempt to try and convince religious people that being gay is ok? Or vegetarians trying to tell people not to eat meat? Or any host of other beliefs.

This country is about freedom to express yourself, not freedom to not be offended. And while there need to be reasonable limits to maintain societal order, that doesn't mean you get to tell others not to be able to speak about their beliefs.

Now if they are breaking down your door and forcing you to read the bible, or coming up to you and physically getting in your face, they have crossed the line, but the actions of a few extremeists do NOT represent what Christianity is all about. Anymore than the actions of a few eco-terrorists represent what environmentalists are all about, or Al-Qaida representing what Islam is all about, or any number of other belief systems.

Mod's PLEASE move this thread to the political forums.

rainman::|:|

May 15, 2004, 01:55 PM

This is disrespectful and uncalled for.

Healthy dialogue.

Freedom OF Relgion not Freedom FROM Religion. Frankly I agree with the above poster. How is the attempt to spread your belief in God any different than peoples attempt to try and convince religious people that being gay is ok? Or vegetarians trying to tell people not to eat meat? Or any host of other beliefs.

Because both of the beliefs above have some basis in science, and science continues to find a real definition for the questions posed. Religion holds to a set of ideals that are entirely non-scientific, and require faith, while science shows us real facts without agenda. So it's natural that in a free country like the USA, public policy would lean towards the scientific point of view. If being a vegetarian winds up being healthier, and can be proven to reduce the risk of diseases, then it would only be natural to campaign against meat-eating, just as anti-tobacco companies campaign against smoking today. Once a gay gene is found, the law will need to comprehend that and social policy will change.

There are two sets of "facts" being pushed: scientific facts, and those unprovable ones based in, essentially, a science fiction (paranormal anyway) explanation. I know which one i would want *my* kids learning.

This country is about freedom to express yourself, not freedom to not be offended. And while there need to be reasonable limits to maintain societal order, that doesn't mean you get to tell others not to be able to speak about their beliefs.

Seemed to me he was voicing his personal disdain with the idea, not trying to take away your right to do it.

Now if they are breaking down your door and forcing you to read the bible, or coming up to you and physically getting in your face, they have crossed the line, but the actions of a few extremeists do NOT represent what Christianity is all about. Anymore than the actions of a few eco-terrorists represent what environmentalists are all about, or Al-Qaida representing what Islam is all about, or any number of other belief systems.

The government has laws based entirely in christianity. I'd say that's being forced. The majority of people identifying as christians in the USA support these religious-based laws. I'd say that makes them extremists.

paul

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 01:57 PM

This is disrespectful and uncalled for.

Freedom OF Relgion not Freedom FROM Religion. Frankly I agree with the above poster. How is the attempt to spread your belief in God any different than peoples attempt to try and convince religious people that being gay is ok? Or vegetarians trying to tell people not to eat meat? Or any host of other beliefs.

This country is about freedom to express yourself, not freedom to not be offended. And while there need to be reasonable limits to maintain societal order, that doesn't mean you get to tell others not to be able to speak about their beliefs.

Now if they are breaking down your door and forcing you to read the bible, or coming up to you and physically getting in your face, they have crossed the line, but the actions of a few extremeists do NOT represent what Christianity is all about. Anymore than the actions of a few eco-terrorists represent what environmentalists are all about, or Al-Qaida representing what Islam is all about, or any number of other belief systems.

Mod's PLEASE move this thread to the political forums.

this is where the problem exists. Instead of each side taking full control over their beliefs, they try and force in one way or another those beliefs down the unwilling masses.

How would we feel if vegetarians got the courts to agree that slaughtering of animals for food was unconstitutional?

the point being is that as long as the Constitution and Bill of Rights are being followed then there should be little issue. Particularly in light of our more informed society after the Civil War and the Civil Right Era.

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Now if they are breaking down your door and forcing you to read the bible, or coming up to you and physically getting in your face, they have crossed the line, but the actions of a few extremeists do NOT represent what Christianity is all about. Anymore than the actions of a few eco-terrorists represent what environmentalists are all about, or Al-Qaida representing what Islam is all about, or any number of other belief systems.

The government has laws based entirely in christianity. I'd say that's being forced. The majority of people identifying as christians in the USA support these religious-based laws. I'd say that makes them extremists.

paul

There is nothing wrong with laws that religious based IMO. Thou shall not kill comes to mind. It is when they try to take the "Word" and change it to fit their needs, without taking in the historical context. Particularly since most of what the religions subscribe too were written by man himself. And by human nature we are self serving individuals.

We as a nation should have grown to the point of acceptance. Meaning that if one does not accept my ways, they should allow them to exist. Let God sort out who deserves Hell or Heaven.

rainman::|:|

May 15, 2004, 02:21 PM

There is nothing wrong with laws that religious based IMO. Thou shall not kill comes to mind. It is when they try to take the "Word" and change it to fit their needs, without taking in the historical context. Particularly since most of what the religions subscribe too were written by man himself. And by human nature we are self serving individuals.

We as a nation should have grown to the point of acceptance. Meaning that if one does not accept my ways, they should allow them to exist. Let God sort out who deserves Hell or Heaven.

Your goals are amiable but you've been fooled into believing a civilized society can not exist in the absence of religious-based morality. Not killing, raping, stealing, falsely accusing, are all common-sense in a scientific society, and would certainly be the bedrock of a totally secular government (like we're supposed to have). But laws prohibiting gay marriage shouldn't be in there, nor laws prohibiting euthanasia or drug use, because they're all based on a Christian sensibility and morality. Admittedly, laws concerning adultery were dropped out over the last century...

paul

virividox

May 15, 2004, 03:39 PM

nice and clean site, havent explored it fully but so far so good

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 03:53 PM

Your goals are amiable but you've been fooled into believing a civilized society can not exist in the absence of religious-based morality. Not killing, raping, stealing, falsely accusing, are all common-sense in a scientific society, and would certainly be the bedrock of a totally secular government (like we're supposed to have). But laws prohibiting gay marriage shouldn't be in there, nor laws prohibiting euthanasia or drug use, because they're all based on a Christian sensibility and morality. Admittedly, laws concerning adultery were dropped out over the last century...

paul

And that is what I was trying to get at. maybe being a child that came of age in the 70's I had greater hopes for where we would be as a nation of acceptance.

Shame of it is that people used God to condone slavery....

Krizoitz

May 15, 2004, 05:57 PM

Because both of the beliefs above have some basis in science, and science continues to find a real definition for the questions posed. Religion holds to a set of ideals that are entirely non-scientific, and require faith, while science shows us real facts without agenda. So it's natural that in a free country like the USA, public policy would lean towards the scientific point of view. If being a vegetarian winds up being healthier, and can be proven to reduce the risk of diseases, then it would only be natural to campaign against meat-eating, just as anti-tobacco companies campaign against smoking today. Once a gay gene is found, the law will need to comprehend that and social policy will change.

And why is science a superior view point? You are claiming that your belief system, in this case science, is somehow superior. Trouble is even science stems from a certain set of beliefs in things that can't be proven. Add to that the fact that over the years what science has known for sure has changed. How do you expect anyone to respect you're right to believe something if you reduce theirs to being irrelavent. This is the EXACT same attitude that people complain about when dealing with religious missionaries, that they are trying to claim their view is the right one, then they turn around and do it themselves. Its so unbelievable arrogant.

My point is not that religion is right or wrong, or that gays are right or wrong, or that vegetarians are right or wrong. My point was that the first ammendmant doesn't stop people form sharing their views, it encourages it. No matter what those views are, and I'm sick of people using the whole Freedom OF Religion as an excuse to try and shut religion out of public discourse. You don't like it fine. I don't like it when people start harrassing me about eating meat. But I don't tell my vegetarian friends who respect me that they are all bad, because of the actions of a few people. Maybe if more people started actually learning what religions really taught instead of listening to the extremists there would be less problems. But I forgot, people are too lazy, people want the quick answer so they just believe what they hear first, judge one it, and don't care that they might just have it wrong.

Krizoitz

May 15, 2004, 05:59 PM

ok, im tired of religion trying to be everywhere...im sick of people trying to put god into every hobby there is or any object or club or activity there is, and who do i blame? religious people...religious people are always looking for ways to attract other people to join their religion...it sickens me, personally i dont do that at all, i dont go around telling people to convert to being an Atheist, but seriously when religious people try to take over everything, it sucks the fun out of anything...so stop doing it! and if you do it, stop saying that your always right about everything...seriously i just hate that...so if your going to make a site like this, go ahead, but when you say that your always right and that the world is going to end and all that stuff...its not going to happen...so stop living in your fairy tale and start living the real life...reality

First, no one made you visit the site. No one made you read this thread. No one forced you to do any of that. If you wanted to avoid it all you had to do was NOT read it. You ACTIVELY choose to look into it.

Whats wrong with people wanting to combine things that they enjoy? They aren't forcing you to do it. This is a free country, so get over this attitude that everything has to be the way YOU like it, don't read the site and move on.

Chip NoVaMac

May 15, 2004, 06:24 PM

mkaake

May 15, 2004, 06:55 PM

this thread needs to be retitled:

how to get a thread trashed in no-time...

one day, people will learn (heard this on another forum :) ) that arguing online is meaningless and a waste of time.

this thread is about the site, pointing it out to people, not a religious debate.

(sorry, just tired of watching threads (not just here) get trashed because people wouldnt simply leave a post alone that obviously wasn't for them in the first place.)

matt

Datazoid

May 15, 2004, 07:05 PM

"Scientific facts" is an oxymoron. It is a key principle of science and the scientific method that there are no "facts" that can be proven via scientific avenues. Science holds many theories, predictions, hypotheses, and observations to be true, but only in terms of "we cannot yet prove that this theory is false". To be more specific, science "attempts to disprove the null hypothesis", which means, a hypothesis is made, and then its opposite is shown to be false, eg. since !h->n, if !n, then h is supported (modus tollens). Otherwise, no conclusion can be drawn (we would be affirming the consequent). Even so, science allows for the nullification of this falsification (eg. later tests show that n can be true), thus, no scientific theories can be held as facts, as facts are always true.

Not to say that I, personally, don't hold scientific knowledge over religious (because, not personally holding a religious belief, I do), but neither is provable without a doubt, and therefore it is a mistake to state that scientific facts disprove religion. I do believe it would be wise to move away from the puritanical roots of our legal system, but that is another discussion entirely.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sci·ence n.
The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

fact n.
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.

Ninja_Turtle

May 15, 2004, 08:11 PM

First, no one made you visit the site. No one made you read this thread. No one forced you to do any of that. If you wanted to avoid it all you had to do was NOT read it. You ACTIVELY choose to look into it.

Whats wrong with people wanting to combine things that they enjoy? They aren't forcing you to do it. This is a free country, so get over this attitude that everything has to be the way YOU like it, don't read the site and move on.

didnt you read what i said? i said I DONT CARE if people do these sites, I RESPECT these sites, if the site makes the person happy, go right ahead...if the site makes a better world GO AHEAD, i give mad props to people when they stand up for what they believe in, the thing that makes me mad is that they say their religion is the best, and they go around preaching like it is and also the whole "end of the world" thing... Read what i say before posting anything else smart guy...

iJon

May 15, 2004, 08:36 PM

hmm, i can just see this thread getting shut down real quick. reminds me of the good ol' days when shrek was around :)

iJon

TimDaddy

May 15, 2004, 09:50 PM

The government has laws based entirely in christianity. I'd say that's being forced. The majority of people identifying as christians in the USA support these religious-based laws. I'd say that makes them extremists.

paul

Amen! I have read little of the Bible, so I am going on what Christians have told me. I thought that God gave us free will. If you support a politician taking away our God-given free will, doesn't that mean that you believe that politician to be smarter than God? Doesn't Jesus want us to accept him and to love him? If we are forced to live according to the local churches interpretation of the America's most popular Bible, is that really acceptance? If I have to worry about not sinning to avoid fines and jail, am I really going to love Jesus? It doesn't make me love him. It makes me feel that it was all made up to control people, and there is really nobody there to love.

I was going to church and starting to consider believing it, until March and Novermber of last year. In March, the preacher was telling us how we MUST support the war in Iraq. One entire surmon was on "When is it right to fight?" He gave examples all hour from the Bible where God commanded people to fight. He kind of ruined it, though, a couple of weeks later. He went back to the old "turn the other cheek" routine. (I wish I could remember the book.) He told a story from the Bible about a city that was attacked, women and children slaughtered. The people took up arms, but only kept them with them in case of another attack. They began rebuilding the wall around the city, and did not go out seeking vengence. He really blew his pro-war sermon when he said "And the people DID NOT plan a "preemptive strike!" Poor choice of words, I'd say, considering his previous sermons. Then, again in November, the local Christians began telling us who we should vote for. This democrat supports abortion. He's a great guy with some great ideas, but he is a baby-killer! Personally, I don't think a lot of the "Christian" politicians want to end abortion. I always consider them because I am disguisted by abortion. If they were to ban it, I may never give them a second thought. Every time they pass a ban, it is filled with a reason for the courts to shoot it down. (Such as, sorry, sir, if your wife gives birth, she will die. But, I have to let her die because the president said she has to give birth.) I really think they want these bans shot down so they will be kept in power to keep "fighting" against abortion. Sorry for going politcal here, but my point is, I showed support for a politician who calls himself a christian and goes to church every Sunday, but because he supports one issue that the clan in my neighborhood is against, I am looked down upon. Isn't this sick? If there were truly freedom of religion, would every religious discussion involve politics and every political discussion end up involving religion?

brogers

May 15, 2004, 09:54 PM

Let's talk about craming things down our throughts....

My kids have to sit at school and hear about Hannukah.
They are taught that evolution is fact...can't mention creation.
The school board advises teachers to use the word Holiday not Christmas as it may offend.
There is an alcohol billboard on every corner.
There are alcohol commercials (catchy ones at that) all over the TV.
Sex is everywhere.
Porno shows up in our inboxes when we don't ask for it.

I could go on and on. Don't talk to me about religion. We live in a world where it is cool to get drunk and if someone mentions Jesus or God we are told to shut up. We live in a world where violence shows up everywhere, foul language is the order of the day and then we kick the largest faith sector in the country to the curb.

People tell me if I don't like what is on TV, then don't turn it on. If you don't like what is taught in the schools, then send your kids to a weirdo Christian school. If this is a society of majority rule, then why is it that Christianity (which over 85% of the country say they are affiliated with) has to step aside so that everyone else get their way?

Sorry for the rampage, but this makes me a little upset. If you don't like Jesus, why fuss at those that do? Why go to the site and then complain. That would be like me stopping by a porno site and fussing about pornography in my face.

my 2 cents.

brogers

May 15, 2004, 10:07 PM

Healthy dialogue.

The government has laws based entirely in christianity. I'd say that's being forced. The majority of people identifying as christians in the USA support these religious-based laws. I'd say that makes them extremists.

paul

So every majority that supports something are extremists? What is your definition of extremist. Are all Christians extemists because we support Christians laws. Are all users of Microsoft based PCs extremists? Not sure I follow your rational here.

Krizoitz

May 16, 2004, 01:02 AM

didnt you read what i said? i said I DONT CARE if people do these sites, I RESPECT these sites, if the site makes the person happy, go right ahead...if the site makes a better world GO AHEAD, i give mad props to people when they stand up for what they believe in, the thing that makes me mad is that they say their religion is the best, and they go around preaching like it is and also the whole "end of the world" thing... Read what i say before posting anything else smart guy...

Then why did you post such an inflamatory post? Trolling maybe?

Krizoitz

May 16, 2004, 01:15 AM

So every majority that supports something are extremists? What is your definition of extremist. Are all Christians extemists because we support Christians laws. Are all users of Microsoft based PCs extremists? Not sure I follow your rational here.

Its quite simple. There is a group of people on the left, a large group of them apparently, who seem to hold the following views.

- All christians are the same and their beliefs are wrong. Apparently because they can't understand something it must be stupid.

- Their beliefs, for whatever reason are vastly superior. Apparently its ok to force their beliefs on us but not the other way around.

- Having looked at the Bible/talked to a christian means they have fully explored Christianity and they can dismiss it as wrong. Its kinda like thumbing through a book on biology and talking to a biology teacher, it suddenly makes you an expert on biology and you are free to dismiss it.

- Laws can't be based on religious beliefs, but they can be based on other beliefs, so long as they haven't been labeled religious by society. So murder should be ok, cause thats based on some peoples moral views and not others.

- If you oppose something like abortion, you are out to get women, an extremist, backward, wrong, etc.

- Being a liberal somehow makes you magically enlightened, all your views must be right, and all conservative views must be wrong.

Flip these arguments around and you have exactly what the left accuses the right of (which I see happening as well) but then the go and DO IT THEMSELVES. Sometimes it really bothers me how sanctimonious and self-righteous the right is. Then I turn arond and the left is doing the exact same thing.

Both sides are so full of themselves that they won't ever even consider that they might be wrong. Kind like these forums, I don't think I have ever seen someone budge an inch from their position. No matter which side it is. Its like someone mentions a topic and both sides start accusing the other of the most extreme viewpoints possible. Its insane, its childish, and no matter what I say in this post, people are going to twist my words, or not even read the thing, but read what they WANT to see, and the hatred will continue.